What is GW As Related to Motown?

[longtimefan]

In the DFTMC annotations, it indicates that some tracks [[Chris Clark) were recorded at “GW.” I guess I have missed something along the way! :-)

[sansradio]

Possibly Golden World?

[snakepit]

Golden World recording studios, aka studio B.
By 1966 Motown was recording so much that a second studio was acquired when Golden World label was taken over by Motown.
By 1967 it was used for vocals and strings , overdubs etc. But most producers preferred to record the rythym tracks at Hitsville , studio A.

[Quinn]

Snakepit and Sansradio stated the basics,but I'll add a little bit here.Golden World/Ric Tic was a record company owned by a wealthy businessman Edward Wingate and his wife Joanne Bratton.He had a few successful acts which Berry Gordy acquired through the purchase of the label. Edwin Starr, The Fantastic Four, JJ Barnes,Richard Morris,Etc were from the GW family. Most of the roster and production staff took their leave in the process.Anyway, even though B.G and E.W were friends,Berry didn't like the competition he provided.Especially considering the fact that The Funk Brothers were moonlighting there.Ed would even pay their fines if they got busted. So finally B.G. offered him one million dollars, which he accepted. The earliest Motown sessions there are in October 1966. I could say much more, but you can research it yourself through the tour option on this website and through Google.

[snakepit]

Thanks Quinn, I ducked out on the full version.
Did Ed Wingate approach Berry with a business option to sell, as I have read, or did Berry make the first move?.

[Quinn]

Thanks Quinn, I ducked out on the full version.
Did Ed Wingate approach Berry with a business option to sell, as I have read, or did Berry make the first move?.Every account I've come across states that B.G. made the proposition. That would make sense cause Big Ed was just getting started.The man owned many places and things involved in business,even a taxi cab service. There couldn't be any financial issues. George Clinton always gives him his due as an entrepreneur. He and Joanne had just opened the studio on Davison the previous year,everything was looking up. It's a shame that withholding the tapes that Motown acquired and the tapes that had to be returned to Don Davis the original GW session tapes are history. The "Watch Out Girl" master tape is even gone.That's a tune by The Holidays. Ed had just released that when B.G. bought GW and it was a master lease. The location of it was as good a guess to us as it was Don. JJ Barnes was held at the starting gate by Marvin Gaye, Edwin Starr had to fight to write his own songs,The F4 had one hit the entire time they were there... So many stories.

[snakepit]

Thanks.
Here in the UK, Ric Tic/Golden World was the first prominent underground label that the Northern soul scene championed in the early 1970s.
Many Ric Tic/GW tracks featured heavily in the golden period of the scene.
The viewpoint was that Big bad wolf Gordy swallowed it up, as it was too much competition. I can't agree that it was that much of a problem to Motown , on a national, or worldwide level.
Problems with moonlighting and local Detroit influence, but I don't see GW causing to much competition. The acquisition of Davison was an astute move by Gordy, as they needed more studio facilities.
If GW had not been taken over , do you think would have been that successful?

[snakepit]

BTW, I've just been reading about a book by All Kent. Apparently he is not very complimentary about Ed .Wingate.
I'd love this book but it's not cheap.

[snakepit]

Don Davies...
He did a deal with UK label , Goldmine, and several CDs of his Detroit recordings were issued.
A number of versions, both vocal and instrumental, of "watch out girl" featured, so he had tapes of some recordings of it.
Check out these CDs of groovesville recordings. By Don Davis below..

[snakepit]

https://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dpopular&field-keywords=groovesville

[Quinn]

Thanks.
Here in the UK, Ric Tic/Golden World was the first prominent underground label that the Northern soul scene championed in the early 1970s.
Many Ric Tic/GW tracks featured heavily in the golden period of the scene.
The viewpoint was that Big bad wolf Gordy swallowed it up, as it was too much competition. I can't agree that it was that much of a problem to Motown , on a national, or worldwide level.
Problems with moonlighting and local Detroit influence, but I don't see GW causing to much competition. The acquisition of Davison was an astute move by Gordy, as they needed more studio facilities.
If GW had not been taken over , do you think would have been that successful?I think GW would have continued to have success at the rate that it was. Ed's records would've never been in the same class as Berry's, even though they were good. Ed didn't push his production staff in the same fashion Berry did. Music was never a life and death situation to Ed, he just saw that Detroit was the epicenter of the music industry at the time and wanted to get in on it. He visited Hitsville on a regular basis and became friendly with everyone. I'm sure he got some pointers from Berry on how a record company operated. He wasn't a songwriter or producer, he didn't have any experience in that area he just saw it as something profitable. He started to gain momentum and with B.G. wanting the Motor City to himself he did what he had to do.He bought Harry Balk out too and he wasn't half the threat B.G. figured Ed was. Survival of the fittest.

[Quinn]

Don Davies...
He did a deal with UK label , Goldmine, and several CDs of his Detroit recordings were issued.
A number of versions, both vocal and instrumental, of "watch out girl" featured, so he had tapes of some recordings of it.
Check out these CDs of groovesville recordings. By Don Davis below.. I have nearly every one of those compilations. Many of those tracks were remastered from vinyl. The only version of "Watch Out" that was on tape was Orthedia Barnes version,sister to JJ Barnes. The Holidays master tape was gone with the wind. They had to use the original mint 45 to include it. In fact, Outta Sight had plans to issue all the Revilot singles over two volumes, but due to a lack of masters they killed the project.

[marv2]

I have nearly every one of those compilations. Many of those tracks were remastered from vinyl. The only version of "Watch Out" that was on tape was Orthedia Barnes version,sister to JJ Barnes. The Holidays master tape was gone with the wind. They had to use the original mint 45 to include it. In fact, Outta Sight had plans to issue all the Revilot singles over two volumes, but due to a lack of masters they killed the project.

Ortheia Barnes was a family friend of ours. May she rest in peace.

[TomatoTom123]

Phew, I had always assumed 'recorded GW' in DFTMC meant recorded at Motown's then-newly-acquired Golden World studio. Good. Interesting story too... do you think Ed Wingate would have regretted selling out for a million dollars? :p

[TomatoTom123]

Ooh, is this a dumb question... what’s the difference between 'recorded Hitsville-GW' and 'recorded GW'...?

[Quinn]

Phew, I had always assumed 'recorded GW' in DFTMC meant recorded at Motown's then-newly-acquired Golden World studio. Good. Interesting story too... do you think Ed Wingate would have regretted selling out for a million dollars? :pNo.That was a price Ed couldn't and didn't refuse.At that time given his resume he had some hits, but most singles were either flops or only moderately successful.His batting average was nowhere near B.G's.Berry gave him above and beyond what his assets were worth.In addition,that pre inflated one million only bought the majority of the company.Ed still owned certain things,which Berry wound up buying around '68.Ed then started running a record company from his home in the Boston-Edison district.

[Quinn]

Ooh, is this a dumb question... what’s the difference between 'recorded Hitsville-GW' and 'recorded GW'...?The dumbest question is the one not asked."Hitsville-GW" could mean various recording was done between the two studios."Recorded GW" could mean all tracking and overdubs were done completely at Golden World.For Instance:
Goodnight Irene:The originals.Track Recorded at Golden World on October 19,1966.Vocals recorded at Hitsville November 5,1966

When You're Young And In Love:The Marvelettes. Track and lead vocal recorded at Golden World October 14,1966.Backgrounds recorded October 21st and Strings October 27th,1966.

I believe that paints a half way decent picture my friend.

[TomatoTom123]

No.That was a price Ed couldn't and didn't refuse.At that time given his resume he had some hits, but most singles were either flops or only moderately successful.His batting average was nowhere near B.G's.Berry gave him above and beyond what his assets were worth.In addition,that pre inflated one million only bought the majority of the company.Ed still owned certain things,which Berry wound up buying around '68.Ed then started running a record company from his home in the Boston-Edison district.

Quinn thank you for answering my hypothetical question! Lol. Interesting though. It makes me think, why did Berry buy Ed out for a price way over what he was worth? Ed didn’t pose a serious threat to Motown’s success right? Why do it? Just to remove local competition?


The dumbest question is the one not asked."Hitsville-GW" could mean various recording was done between the two studios."Recorded GW" could mean all tracking and overdubs were done completely at Golden World.For Instance:
Goodnight Irene:The originals.Track Recorded at Golden World on October 19,1966.Vocals recorded at Hitsville November 5,1966

When You're Young And In Love:The Marvelettes. Track and lead vocal recorded at Golden World October 14,1966.Backgrounds recorded October 21st and Strings October 27th,1966.

I believe that paints a half way decent picture my friend.

Hey thanks Quinn! I thought it might mean 'half done at Hitsville, half at Golden World' or something like that! :)

[Quinn]

Quinn thank you for answering my hypothetical question! Lol. Interesting though. It makes me think, why did Berry buy Ed out for a price way over what he was worth? Ed didn’t pose a serious threat to Motown’s success right? Why do it? Just to remove local competition?



Hey thanks Quinn! I thought it might mean 'half done at Hitsville, half at Golden World' or something like that! :)Tom,in society and in the world as we know it many mantras dictate the way we live and what we believe. Where money and competition is concerned, "Money talks and the other thing walks". If somebody has something that we want especially if we're competing with it and we have more than enough presidents to save an argument, why not?. There's nothing wrong with being a tough negotiator, but it slows the acquisition down. Motown was grossing nearly 40 million dollars annually by 1966,why send legal teams in an uproar by trying to save a disposable dollar amount. If you over deliver to take over or possess something it accelerates the opportunity. That's why it's called an offer you can't refuse. You can't contest it and you'd be morbid not to take it. Local labels become big indies as Motown did so why couldn't Ed make the same transition? You shut it down before it has the chance. It doesn't have to have mind boggling success,it just has to appear on the radar. Make a generous offer and remove it.

[snakepit]

Thanks Quinn
Nice to have a good old fashioned discussion about Motown on here, we don't get many . 😠

[snakepit]

Quinn
I think that sums it up..GW would have made Records, adored here on the NS scene but not a serious rival to Motown.
However, the myth that Berry had to crush GW to save Motown was peddled by some.[[ sadly fueled by comments by NS 'messiah' Dave God in.)
Never let the truth get in the way of a good story

[snakepit]

https://soulfuldetroit.com/web07-golden%20world/golden%20world%20story/index.html


The Golden World Story

[Motown4Ever518]

Quinn, Thank you very much for your insights. Given my screen name one would assume correctly that I love me some Motown. However it is only in about the past 20 years or that I became aware that there was much of interest beyond what was recorded on West Grand Blvd. As I found out, there was some rather serious stuff happening in other parts of town. So when one says the Sound of Detroit, it is not exclusively Motown as most people think, and as I myself thought.

[Quinn]

Quinn, Thank you very much for your insights. Given my screen name one would assume correctly that I love me some Motown. However it is only in about the past 20 years or that I became aware that there was much of interest beyond what was recorded on West Grand Blvd. As I found out, there was some rather serious stuff happening in other parts of town. So when one says the Sound of Detroit, it is not exclusively Motown as most people think, and as I myself thought. Thank you guys for being interested. I've been painstakingly researching Detroit and it's legendary music scene for many years. The Detroit sound is a discussion in itself.Listening to the records, mostly obscure you can't help but get a bit sad because that's a time forever gone. That Motor City will never be again,even when it gets back on it's feet. God bless every person that was able to experience that period. When I hear almost any song from that era,I can feel the vibe and energy that was there. Car factories buzzing, singers and groups everywhere, clubs jam packed with entertainment,record companies and music unavoidable,great times at Belle Isle, Christmas parades at Hudson's. You can feel those golden years whether you were there or not just listening to the music. You don't get that with any other city where music was made. It makes those of us who came too late a little sick because we'll never know what it was like to kick it in "that" Detroit. It's a vibrancy that we can only hear about from the elders. So I'm glad I can share the information because I have such a kinship with the city in addition to having family there.

[Motown4Ever518]

Thank you guys for being interested. I've been painstakingly researching Detroit and it's legendary music scene for many years. The Detroit sound is a discussion in itself.Listening to the records, mostly obscure you can't help but get a bit sad because that's a time forever gone. That Motor City will never be again,even when it gets back on it's feet. God bless every person that was able to experience that period. When I hear almost any song from that era,I can feel the vibe and energy that was there. Car factories buzzing, singers and groups everywhere, clubs jam packed with entertainment,record companies and music unavoidable,great times at Belle Isle, Christmas parades at Hudson's. You can feel those golden years whether you were there or not just listening to the music. You don't get that with any other city where music was made. It makes those of us who came too late a little sick because we'll never know what it was like to kick it in "that" Detroit. It's a vibrancy that we can only hear about from the elders. So I'm glad I can share the information because I have such a kinship with the city in addition to having family there.

Quinn, that is interesting because I visited Detroit for the first time last year with my wife and daughter who was gathering research for her Senior Thesis on the Flint Water Crisis. Of course one of the stops that we made was Hitsville, where she got an opportunity to sing in the echo chamber, pretty heady stuff for a singer to sing in the same space as did Ms. Ross and Ms. Rogers et al. In driving around town, I really "felt" the music, the laughter, folks dressed to the 9's, 10's, and 11's. The optimistic sense that not only were things getting better, but that all would always be well. Yes, there were opportunity gaps then, and in our minds eye we always focus on the good times, but I definitely heard the music. Because we were on a mission, and were severely time strapped, I did not chat up some of the locals that would have been around 50 years ago, but I will definitely do that the next time I go. Because you know what Quinn? As much as I wanted to know from them, I am sure that they would have appreciated someone being interested enough to ask.

[snakepit]

I've read that GW story again, and it was interesting.
GW's early recordings were mostly made in New York. They built their own studio, Davison, in 1965, but it only lasted about 18 months before Motown bought it.
There is a suggestion that Ed Wingate was offering the company for sale. Motown was recording in LA and NYC, they probably needed additional studio room.
To have a ready made, state of the art facility on their doorstep was too good to turn down.
It seems that Gordy and Wingate were reasonably friendly, so the takeover was probably not the aggressive move it is portrayed to be.

I wonder why Ric Tic was allowed to reform, and not part of the original takeover, before eventually going to Motown about 1968?

[robb_k]

I think GW would have continued to have success at the rate that it was. Ed's records would've never been in the same class as Berry's, even though they were good. Ed didn't push his production staff in the same fashion Berry did. Music was never a life and death situation to Ed, he just saw that Detroit was the epicenter of the music industry at the time and wanted to get in on it. He visited Hitsville on a regular basis and became friendly with everyone. I'm sure he got some pointers from Berry on how a record company operated. He wasn't a songwriter or producer, he didn't have any experience in that area he just saw it as something profitable. He started to gain momentum and with B.G. wanting the Motor City to himself he did what he had to do.He bought Harry Balk out too and he wasn't half the threat B.G. figured Ed was. Survival of the fittest.
13852
Gordy also bought out his ex wife's parents' [[Hazel & Robert Coleman) label "Thelma Records", as well as Wilbur Golden's Correc-Tone Records, and Harry Balk's "Inferno Records", and Artie Fields' "Top Dog Records". He also made things tough for Don Davis' and LeBaron Taylor's "Solid Hitbound Records [[Revilot/Groovesville/Solid Hitbound), and Mike Hanks' [[MAHs/D-Town/Wheelsville USA). He wasn't interested in fostering competition.

[robb_k]

There is a suggestion that Ed Wingate was offering the company for sale. Motown was recording in LA and NYC, they probably needed additional studio room.
To have a ready made, state of the art facility on their doorstep was too good to turn down.
It seems that Gordy and Wingate were reasonably friendly, so the takeover was probably not the aggressive move it is portrayed to be.

I wonder why Ric Tic was allowed to reform, and not part of the original takeover, before eventually going to Motown about 1968?
13853
I don't think Wingate offered his company or recording studio for sale first. I'm sure that Berry Gordy was frustrated with Golden Word using his musicians and Wingates' companies doing well and looking like they would become more and more successful. He combined his desire to get rid of the potentially dangerous competition, and aggravation over moonlighting of his musicians, with his need for expanded recording facilities to make his "offer that couldn't be refused".

It was strictly a business deal. It would have opened up a can of worms to try to include in the purchase agreement, a clause containing Wingate's promise to not start up a new record company. The name Ric-Tic was not included in Motown's purchase of Golden World's assets [[offices/studio/master tapes/specific artist contracts desired included). So, after the sale, Ed and Joanne, still owning the Ric-Tic name, re-opened the label, working out of their house, and recording at United Sound. Don Davis left to form Solid Hitbound productions, with LeBaron Taylor. So, Al Kent, who was not wanted by Motown, was made A&R man, and chief producer. The Detroit Emeralds, Flaming Embers, and a few other artists whose contracts were not bought by Motown were recorded. The Wingates also financed some outside productions by Herman Griffin which were leased to Columbia/Date Records and Wand Records. They also revived Golden World in 1971 for one release [[The Modern Times).

[StuBass1]

Since so many years have passed, it's plausibly within the realm of this topic to perhaps discuss the backstory behind Ed Wingates foray into the record business since it's common knowledge that much of Mr Wingates resources and income were derived from [[lets just say) off the books endeavors...A record company at that time in Detroit was a logical place for such a "businessman" to recycle assets, especially fairly substantial assets as were being taken in [[much of it on a cash basis) through Mr Wingates various reported [[and unreported) income streams, and of course being in that business [[recording and entertainment) was also generally admired around town and carried with it a certain amount of cache, particularly in light of Berry Gordys burgeoning success. Wingates net worth, while perhaps not enormous by todays standards, did allow him to enter the recording business on a much larger scale than many of the mom and pop recording studios that were springing up in the basements of record shops etc around metro Detroit, and his business acumen and the cash he had stashed around, along with perhaps Ms Brattons instincts for the record business allowed him to actually put forth a credible operation in terms of facility, equipment, which made him able to attract artists, musicians, and production people who were certainly a cut above the typical high school talent show level around town hoping to strike it big in the entertainment business, and Wingate was able to afford more polished and experienced talent which he also had the means to develop...perhaps not quite to the the level of Motown or other major labels, but credible nonetheless. It is fairly well known for example, that one of the artists most unhappy about Wingates sale to Motown was Edwin Starr, who had developed the habit going to Wingates home at all hours of the day or night whenever he needed money and Wingate would reportedly emerge from the upstairs with shoeboxes full of cash which he would distribute to his top acts on an as needed basis without the formalized accounting [[and tax withholding) that Motown, as a more "legitimate" operation would insist on...That said, there could be other back reasons [[personal and financial) in Mr Wingates mind and business affairs that led to his decision to sell out to Motown when he did...Some of that, we'll never know...

[theboyfromxtown]

Has the old SDF forum returned!! lol

Many years ago, I had a conversaton with Jerry Plunk of Flaming Ember. He said that many people looked up to Ed Wingate and his wife and they were all on good terms. When Motown bought out the Flaming Ember's contract, Jerry was not happy and told Ed that he didn't want to go. Ed made that happen for Jerry by releasing the group from their contract before the transfer of artists.

[Quinn]

Has the old SDF forum returned!! lol

Many years ago, I had a conversaton with Jerry Plunk of Flaming Ember. He said that many people looked up to Ed Wingate and his wife and they were all on good terms. When Motown bought out the Flaming Ember's contract, Jerry was not happy and told Ed that he didn't want to go. Ed made that happen for Jerry by releasing the group from their contract before the transfer of artists.The Holidays didn't want to go either. Berry Gordy told them personally how happy he'd be to have them. They didn't like what they'd heard about the inner workings of the company and politely declined. Smart move on Jerry's part,his group may have met the same fate as The Shades Of Blue when B.G. bought out Harry Balk. As soon as the announcement was made that Golden World would be sold everybody ran around frantically,snatching master tapes and many other things. As fate would have it they would sign with HDH and have some success.Even though the business practices weren't great they got what they never would've at Motown: A HIT!!!