Supreme Observation

[jim aka jtigre99]

My hope is this does not start some huge Supremes drama, as it is simply my observations and opinions. Some you may share and some you may disagree with, but I ask you all to be polite and civil. First off, I love all of the Supremes-so let's get that out first thing. With the recent birthdays of both Jean Terrell and Scherrie Payne, I felt like I wanted to say something about how I feel about some aspects of the group. First off, it was wonderful to see Diana Ross be honored on the AMA for a lifetime achievement award, she is long overdue and I feel she has never been given her due. I feel that way about the Supremes even more. I see so many threads about how awesome Florence Ballard was and she does have a very strong voice, but I do not feel she had the discipline or dexterity in her vocals that Diana had or even that Mary had. Florence comes off less polished in the dance routines than Mary & Flo but she seemed to compensate with an endearing smile and presence. I like Flo's voice, but it is not as distinctive as Diana's or even Mary's. Mary was an eye catcher with her beauty, her poise and her ability to add a feminine grace to the dance routines. Her smoky voice was distinctive and she was the one able to blend the voices in all of the line ups, especially the originals where Diana was nasal and untrained with her high distinctive voice cutting through and Flo's loud and high backing being heard. Without Mary, it would have sounded less polished, like everyone was trying to be heard at once. Jean Terrell also had a distinctive voice-she sounded like a cross between Diana Ross and Dionne Warwick, although sometimes her nasal and high notes sounded grating, like on a few Jimmy Webb cuts. She offered a far more natural stage presence and a very disciplined voice that was distinctive and recognizable. Mary & Cindy seemed to shine more visually and vocally during this grouping. Because Jean was more about voice and not a show business razzle dazzle showstopper, the general public started to lose interest even though vocally they were miles ahead and artistically advancing forward. When Mary regrouped when Jean & Lynda left, it was assuring to have Cindy back as a Supreme and nice to hear her voice and see her. Mary always felt Florence had the best voice in the group, which I never felt personally. In hiring Scherrie Payne, she brought about the group that she envisioned. I have to laugh when I read that the group "no longer sounded like the Supremes" and that is because the lead no longer had that high distinctive sound that Diana Ross and Jean Terrell had. Mary chose Scherrie like she chose Lynda who both had the sound she liked in Flo. Now, it sounded more like it would if Flo was lead singer. Scherrie Payne was loud and strong, but had far more discipline and dexterity in her vocals than Flo did. Scherrie is perhaps the most overlooked Supreme in terms of talent. Her vocals are amazing, she also had the glamor and feminine dance moves that Mary had, had a similar timbre in her voice to Mary. This is what the group would have sounded like had Florence stayed and become lead singer, although Scherrie had far more discipline and dexterity in her vocals. When they added Susaye, she had that high distinctive voice similar to Minnie Ripperton or Deneice Williams. On record, the last grouping seriously had as much talent as the originals with three lead vocalists able to tackle three different genres of music-Diana was pop,Flo was soul and Mary was ballads, now Mary was ballads and light disco,Scherrie was pop and perfect for disco and Susaye was funk and soul. By then they did seem like three leads all trying to outdo each other to be recognized and the cohesiveness that was there before during live shows suffered, the lack of support and direction from Motown didn't help either.
Like I said, these are just my observations and opinions, I am not putting down anyone so please DO NOT turn this post into Supreme World War 3. You can agree or disagree with my opinions but respond politely and with thought. Respect these artists because I do love all of the Supremes.

[arr&bee]

Well spoken,great post!!

[mysterysinger]

Agree really - most times I think there was a sense of fun in Flo's vocals.

[marv2]

Great post Jim, but that is one big ass paragraph up top. LOL!!! I enjoyed your observations.

[marv2]

A bit different perspective on the Supremes.........


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2Ia1dq1Kwk

[blackguy69]

Have to agree with your perspective.

[marv2]

Have to agree with your perspective.

hehehehehehehehehehehe......!

[gman]

I agree with much of the post....urban legend and Dreamgirls seems to have propelled Florence's part into another context. I was happy to hear Smokey attempt to set the record straight following all the hoopla soon after the movie. We seem to now have 2 generations that think the movie was the gospel, Diana was a villain, and have no familiarity at all of the groups continued success and recorded output into the 70's...and I am the biggest Mary fan, but she also needs to give more recognition to the group post DMF...IMHO, Flo's termination was necessary and justified, but she should have been given a more favorable financial offering including residuals...

and once DR left it was a new group. One that had great talents and good material...the entire Motown sound had stronger competition starting around 1970 from harder new acts and Southern recorded soul music, and it was time for a different sound to get a piece of the airplay and sales pie.

[blackguy69]

A few points: the play and the movie might as well been 2 different stories. The play was more of a combo if different girl groups but the supreme element was still there while the movie was more blatantly focused on the supremes. Actually the play and the movie puts Diana in a good light when compared to what was written about her. I would never say that smokey set the record straight. The most he could do is to tell his perspective. As far as Mary giving recognition to the others, it wouldn’t hurt her to do so but I understand why she talks about the original group. They were the ones that broke ground. They achieved so much that once the others came in it wasn’t much left to achieve.

[luke]

I don’t think we really know the extent of Florence’s talent as she was quite young when she was kicked out and she never really got a chance to shine. Her Christmas realated vocals show tremendous burgeoning talent. IMO as good as Scherrie is she is more of a solo performer.

[Guy]

I have always regarded Mary as the least vocally talented supreme. She was pretty and poised but that was her sole contribution to the group as a performer. Her voice is discordant, literally and figuratively, in every line-up of the Supremes. The least interesting songs feature her as the lead. However, I am grateful to her for her perseverance in keeping the group going after Ross departed.

Ross was the most distinctive voice in the trio's whole history -- her voice is the quintessence of the Supremes: eager, urgent and overflowing with exuberance. As noted by Jim, Scherrie and Susaye were the most vocally gifted. Cindy and Lynda provided great harmonies. Based on Flo's recordings, I think Scherrie, Susaye and Jean are superior vocalists. Of course, Flo had other issues that probably prevented her from reaching her full potential as a performer and recording artist.

[blackguy69]

Should have known we weren’t going to make it thru without someone slamming one of the girls.

[marv2]

Should have known we weren’t going to make it thru without someone slamming one of the girls.

It's like it's his job or something. LOL! Mary is a great singer.

[floyjoy678]

I don't think Flo's full potential was ever tapped into. Nor do I believe we've heard what her voice is capable of except for the Christmas cuts. Mary, Diana, Marvin and many others have said what a great voice Flo had. I think Flo's voice was distinct and always seemed to stick out. Her onstage presence was very strong most of the time. There were times toward the end where you can see she just didn't care anymore and I think that happened vocally too.

[floyjoy678]

Also I think that Mary had a great voice too but like Flo, she didn't receive any proper training or practice with it in the way that Diana was able to.

I really do believe that Gordy intended to market the three of them and not just Diana up until about mid '65. You had back in my arms again, the "More Hits" cover, Flo's onstage ad libs being Incorporated into the act. Then the Copa came in which Diana shined, Mary's tardiness was starting to be an issue and Flo was already beginning to miss shows by this point and then Gordy obviously changed his mind on marketing all three of them.

[Guy]

Should have known we weren’t going to make it thru without someone slamming one of the girls.

Any "one" of the girls? Is it just Mary who's off-limits or are they all equally above reproach?

[blackguy69]

Any "one" of the girls? Is it just Mary who's off-limits or are they all equally above reproach?
Any of the girls. Not just Mary. You noticed that the original post gave props to all of the girls without knocking no one down.

[jim aka jtigre99]

I guess I should have known better, I was just hoping for an intelligent conversation without all of the ridiculous, petty infighting over the group. No one is perfect or above reproach, but like I did say, I was only voicing MY observations and that I loved all of the Supremes. There is absolutely no need to have this go where so many discussions have gone before. I understand if someone doesn't care for someone's voice or stage presence, critics write about that all of the time. It is time to stop the nonsensical "My Supreme is BETTER than your Supreme" attitudes and conversations. That was not what this was about. Don't let this devolve into another group of back & forth over individuals. Please refrain from the negativity. I wish you would all write about what you CELEBRATE about each individual member instead.

[blackguy69]

I think all of the girls bring their own flavor to the group and its always bothersome when someone always has to criticize. I was going to ignore that comment but I couldn’t. It went right back the usual crap.

[lakeside]

Each Supreme brought something different to the table, which added interest and flavor to the vocals and visuals. I celebrate all groupings.
They all bring a smile to my face....and ears.

[RanRan79]

I don't think Flo's full potential was ever tapped into. Nor do I believe we've heard what her voice is capable of except for the Christmas cuts. Mary, Diana, Marvin and many others have said what a great voice Flo had. I think Flo's voice was distinct and always seemed to stick out. Her onstage presence was very strong most of the time. There were times toward the end where you can see she just didn't care anymore and I think that happened vocally too.

Mostly I agree with you. I've never heard audio or seen footage where I ever thought Flo didn't care anymore. What I've always been most impressed about is that for everything that has been written and said about Florence toward the end of her time in the Supremes, none of that drama seems apparent in her singing or performing. The same with Diana and Mary. When it came to their craft- when it came to executing their craft- they seemed to make it a priority to be, um, Supreme.;)

As great as Flo's Christmas vocals are, I actually think her verse on "It Makes No Difference Now" really showcased what Diana, Mary, Marvin Gaye, Martha Reeves, Kat Anderson and others talk about when they reference her voice and the "soulfulness" of it. As my mama would say: that heifer could sang.

And to my ears her voice was very distinctive. Was it flawless? No. I do think there were times when she had pitch issues and also a few times when she could not [[or refused to) control her volume. I know many fans use Mary's account of Florence singing nearly 20 feet from a mic during sessions as evidence of how great a singer she was, but personally it says to me that she was a singer who was having trouble controlling the volume of her voice and the producers did what they needed to do to get the Flo Ballard sound and achieve the right volume at the same time. [[Of course if the producers used this as a recording trick on purpose, that's something else entirely.)

But each Supreme brought their own thing to the scene, which is why no one woman was ever really greater than the group, even Miss Ross, as great as she was. The group seemed to change with every addition and subtraction. But they were always a very talented group. Only Barbara and Cindy, IMO, don't seem to have been built as lead singers. Their voices seem much more suited to the background. Cindy in particular had a beautiful voice in the harmony, but just didn't cut it taking on a full song. All just my opinion.

Where Supreme voices go, my favorite voices in order are: Diana/Flo/Jean [[tie), Mary/Scherrie [[tie), Lynda, Cindy, Susaye, Barbara.

[jobeterob]

The blend of the original group will never be beaten or repeated - especially in songs like Nothing But Heartaches and You Keep Me Hangin On.

But I just got the Ultimate Christmas CD and I thought exactly what some of you are saying on here; as a lead singer, Flo slips pretty close to nondescript on that CD - she doesn't stand out much.

[Guy]

There is absolutely no need to have this go where so many discussions have gone before. I understand if someone doesn't care for someone's voice or stage presence, critics write about that all of the time. It is time to stop the nonsensical "My Supreme is BETTER than your Supreme" attitudes and conversations. That was not what this was about. Don't let this devolve into another group of back & forth over individuals. Please refrain from the negativity. I wish you would all write about what you CELEBRATE about each individual member instead.

So I did that. I acknowledged that Mary was pretty and poised. What more do I need to say about her?

Of course, you're being disingenuous in your suggestion [[hope) that this one Supremes' discussion of the multitudes at this forum would not involve the same observations and critiques that have been repeated over and over. Perhaps if it was more focused on a particular aspect of the Supremes or certain selections it could have elicited the response that you wanted. Otherwise, you should anticipate that you will get candid responses, even if you regard those responses as negativity.

[gman]

Flo certainly had the chops and talent to pull off a Broadway performance. Perhaps that would have been her better route post Supremes.

[blackguy69]

So I did that. I acknowledged that Mary was pretty and poised. What more do I need to say about her?

Of course, you're being disingenuous in your suggestion [[hope) that this one Supremes' discussion of the multitudes at this forum would not involve the same observations and critiques that have been repeated over and over. Perhaps if it was more focused on a particular aspect of the Supremes or certain selections it could have elicited the response that you wanted. Otherwise, you should anticipate that you will get candid responses, even if you regard those responses as negativity.
Talk about the worst backhanded complement. You would be mad if someone said something negative about Diana.

[RanRan79]

Personally I didn't see anything wrong with Guy's post. My opinion differs greatly from his, but I thought he expressed his opinion regarding Supreme voices in a matter of fact, opinion based way, no different than the comments before or after his. He just doesn't dig Mary. Big deal.

Having said that, these discussions would fare better if every negative comment wasn't addressed. It's time to face facts: not everyone loves Mary Wilson, Diana Ross, Florence Ballard or the Supremes. In fact some folks seem to downright hate them. And there's nothing we can do about it other than let them have their opinions while we have ours. I'm sure I'm not alone in figuring out that some screennames post comments designed to elicit battle responses. Determine which names fit this description and either hit the ignore button on their asses or refuse to give them attention. I don't have anyone on "ignore" but there are several screennames I don't bother acknowledging because I know it feeds into the discord they hope to create. Let them say what they wish about Mary, Diana, Flo and the others, while the rest of us carry on with our discussions maturely, even if we're in disagreement. I hate when the Supremes threads get shut down. I love talking about my favorite group.

[jim aka jtigre99]

Thanks, I just did not want the thread to escalate into something that I have seen on her so many times before and then get shut down. I don't like that the group that really put Motown on the map is treated with less than they deserve as far as accolades while those who love the group bicker over petty things.

[RanRan79]

Also I think that Mary had a great voice too but like Flo, she didn't receive any proper training or practice with it in the way that Diana was able to.

I really do believe that Gordy intended to market the three of them and not just Diana up until about mid '65. You had back in my arms again, the "More Hits" cover, Flo's onstage ad libs being Incorporated into the act. Then the Copa came in which Diana shined, Mary's tardiness was starting to be an issue and Flo was already beginning to miss shows by this point and then Gordy obviously changed his mind on marketing all three of them.

The Supremes were a group in every sense of the word, whether they had an official lead singer or not, and I think Gordy recognized that. Diana was a focal point because she was lead singer, but when it came to photographs, staging, interviews, albums [[from 64-65, More Hits was the only album that didn't have recorded lead work by Flo or Mary, even the shelved albums had Flo and Mary leads, and the Christmas album sessions did as well), it was always the Supremes, never just Diana Ross. But I think Gordy had his eye on Diana as a vehicle to bigger heights throughout all of that, and he never imagined anything more for Flo or Mary.

Your comment about vocal training is spot on. Diana received training and attention that Flo and Mary never received, so any discussion about their voices should always include this information.

[jim aka jtigre99]

Thanks, I just did not want the thread to escalate into something that I have seen on here so many times before and then get shut down. I don't like that the group that really put Motown on the map is treated with less than they deserve as far as accolades while those who love the group bicker over petty things.

[RanRan79]

Flo certainly had the chops and talent to pull off a Broadway performance. Perhaps that would have been her better route post Supremes.

Maybe, maybe not. On one hand it would be concerning that she became an unreliable Supreme, regardless of the reasons. For Broadway you have to be reliable. Also, how much Broadway work was open for African American women during that time? I'm not a Broadway scholar, so that's a legitimate question. How much work could she have actually gotten? On the other hand, it would have been steady work in one place, which means that she wouldn't have to travel and she could've had family members staying with her and not been so lonely.

But ultimately I think her best chance for success was hooking up with a major label who had a vision for her that was in line with her talents. ABC was major but had some questionable connections to Gordy and they first handed Florence over to a producer whose vision didn't seem to play up Flo's strengths. Robert Bateman, having known Flo since the Primettes days, was much more familiar with her voice and for the most part it's his productions on her at ABC that seem to standout the most.

[RanRan79]

Thanks, I just did not want the thread to escalate into something that I have seen on her so many times before and then get shut down. I don't like that the group that really put Motown on the map is treated with less than they deserve as far as accolades while those who love the group bicker over petty things.

Oh I understand completely. And trust me, I haven't always played nice, in so much as responding to the crap that some folks write. But I'm trying to avoid that nonsense because it really does mess up the threads. If we ignore the crap eventually the screennames will get bored and find something else to do. But I'm glad you started the thread.

[Guy]

Personally I didn't see anything wrong with Guy's post. My opinion differs greatly from his, but I thought he expressed his opinion regarding Supreme voices in a matter of fact, opinion based way, no different than the comments before or after his. He just doesn't dig Mary. Big deal.

Thanks RanRan79, I appreciate your comment. Even though this is an anonymous board, it is still jarring to have my comments purposefully mischaracterized. I was hard on Mary but as you said "big deal." Sometimes it seems these threads are designed less to discuss the topics than to launch ad hominem attacks on those who voice differing opinions.

[blackguy69]

Maybe I jumped the gun when I commented on Guy’s post. But the reason I did it was that we always seem so negative on here so it was nice to have at least one thread where we can appreciate heir talents instead of knocking them down.

[Roberta75]

Talk about the worst backhanded complement. You would be mad if someone said something negative about Diana.

Do we need to turn everything into a Diana v Mary thing SMH.

[jim aka jtigre99]

The Supremes were Motown's flagship group and I think that each succeeding group member was able to bring in what was needed and allowed the group to grow into the music of the times, perfectly the last grouping was ideal for the era. I just love all of them.

[captainjames]

Truth be told BG had a helluva vision that I do not thing even many of the Motown artists understood back then.

The Girls ....all [[9) of them were great in their own contribution to the group. What I love was the playful banter from Diana and Flo, which can be heard on some of the outtakes and on stage then. Flo was pretty but could make you laugh in a minute. D/F/M were the grown beakers but the other ladies Cindy, Jean, Lynda, Scherrie and Susaye kept the dream alive.




The Supremes were Motown's flagship group and I think that each succeeding group member was able to bring in what was needed and allowed the group to grow into the music of the times, perfectly the last grouping was ideal for the era. I just love all of them.

[Circa 1824]

The myth is that Flow had the best voice. I believed it until I heard her sing.

The truth - Her soprano was very unpolished. Her phrasing dreadful. You can often hear her literally waiting to sing the next line. She sounds like half a dozen of women who live in my neighborhood. All can sing, but without any potential for success.

[marv2]

Flo certainly had the chops and talent to pull off a Broadway performance. Perhaps that would have been her better route post Supremes.

Florence was the best singer of the original four Supremes in my opinion.

[marv2]

Talk about the worst backhanded complement. You would be mad if someone said something negative about Diana.

Would you like for me to start? LOL!!!!

[luke]

Diana sure improved from the beginning ..My Heart Belongs to me, I want a guy etc. Can you imagine if Florence who sang O Holy Night and Silent Night in the beginning had gotten some of the same as Diana? Wow. And look how far Mary has come!!

[Bluebrock]

Thanks RanRan79, I appreciate your comment. Even though this is an anonymous board, it is still jarring to have my comments purposefully mischaracterized. I was hard on Mary but as you said "big deal." Sometimes it seems these threads are designed less to discuss the topics than to launch ad hominem attacks on those who voice differing opinions.
I do not think you said anything wrong Guy. You expressed your opinion in a respectful manner, and it is an opinion that i totally agree with you on as it happens. So long as it doesn't pave the way for another all out war i see no problem with it.

[mowsville]

I dont understand this "twenty feet from the mic thing"..does Aretha and did Whitney have to do the same thing because their voices are/were too overpowering...from what ive heard Flos voice comes nowhere near either.

[RanRan79]

I dont understand this "twenty feet from the mic thing"..does Aretha and did Whitney have to do the same thing because their voices are/were too overpowering...from what ive heard Flos voice comes nowhere near either.

You just compared two solo singers to a woman whose greatest claim to fame is singing background harmony. Apples and oranges. Maybe lemons and limes. The story about Flo standing feet away from the mic seems to be in regards to her background singing, not when she was taking the lead. To be honest, if Aretha was singing background for someone I can definitely imagine her having to be told to bring it down. Not because she couldn't, but because she wouldn't.:D

[LoveSupreme]

Should have known we weren’t going to make it thru without someone slamming one of the girls.

He wasn't slamming Mary, he was stating his opinion. He feels that Mary is the least vocally talented of the Supremes.

It's his opinion, and he's entitled to it in very much the same way marv2 is entitled to his opinion that Diana Ross is evil incarnate.

If you can't stomach other people's opinions then you have no place in an internet message board forum.

[marv2]

He wasn't slamming Mary, he was stating his opinion. He feels that Mary is the least vocally talented of the Supremes.

It's his opinion, and he's entitled to it in very much the same way marv2 is entitled to his opinion that Diana Ross is evil incarnate.

If you can't stomach other people's opinions then you have no place in an internet message board forum.

She is.......................and so much more <G>

[Circa 1824]

Why are we even debating this unless we are all bored out of our minds with old age.

Does anyone suggest Levi should not have been the lead singer? Then why this endless discussion about Ross?

Hit after hit after hit after hit with a lead vocal the world loved should end any discussion about what should have been. Diana ruled the pop charts of the world.

[gman]

I usually enjoy reading it all...even if I don't agree with it. If I have a particular problem with any entries lack of respect or it differs that much from what I want to see, I stop reading. I try to remember that Supreme fans are very passionate about their favorite lineups and the person posting probably loves one period of the group as much as I love my favorite....we are, after all, among the most dedicated fans an entertainer can have. An dedication- no matter how divided is still admiration and love.

[captainjames]

It doesn't matter one way or another as history is written.

[franjoy56]

flo was the fuel in the background on most of the supremes work thru t period before she was fired. She wasnt a bad dancer. My favorite things. 12.66 and thoriughly modern millie may 67. She sounded great on leads and was a vocal staple on t live at the roostertail show. Perhaps all t friction and pressure coming from gordy ad ross caused her artistry t suffer. Diana cannot be underestimated as a vocal front woman for t group
Mary was t staplethat held t group together. Jean came in at the right timexwhen it was time f diana to go. Cindy was a capable replacement snd did a great job standing up t all that pressure durintgs flo s ouster and ross farewell. Lynda . scherrie and susaye all were essential players who during 72. 73 and 76 provided perfect timing coming in to t group t assume lead roles. I enjoyed every supreme minute f 13 years starting w the release of whrn the love lites and ending w let yourself go.

[PeaceNHarmony]

flo was the fuel in the background on most of the supremes work thru t period before she was fired. She wasnt a bad dancer. My favorite things. 12.66 and thoriughly modern millie may 67. She sounded great on leads and was a vocal staple on t live at the roostertail show. Perhaps all t friction and pressure coming from gordy ad ross caused her artistry t suffer. Diana cannot be underestimated as a vocal front woman for t group
Mary was t staplethat held t group together. Jean came in at the right timexwhen it was time f diana to go. Cindy was a capable replacement snd did a great job standing up t all that pressure durintgs flo s ouster and ross farewell. Lynda . scherrie and susaye all were essential players who during 72. 73 and 76 provided perfect timing coming in to t group t assume lead roles. I enjoyed every supreme minute f 13 years starting w the release of whrn the love lites and ending w let yourself go.
A great summary. Good work.

[144man]

I have always regarded Mary as the least vocally talented supreme. She was pretty and poised but that was her sole contribution to the group as a performer...

I think I held that view until I saw her perform in concert during the 70s. Her live vocal performances came as a complete revelation to me, and I willingly hold up my hands and say I was wrong in my previous assessment.