Nights Over Egypt!

[marv2]

What are your thoughts on what is happening in Egypt?

[tamla617]

oh yeah!
the one and only thing.petrol/gas/oil,what ever your going to use is going UP!
SUEZ CANAL,egyptian controled.who runs egypt runs the flow of oil,nike shirts=anything made in china,malaysia,singapore,japan,korea.you're going to pay [[europe) or go the long way 'round south africa,cape of good hope.
.
egypt is also a cross roads an "in" to the rest of the mid east.saudi arabia "talks" to isreal through egypt.
egypt's borders with isreal and is peaceful with isreal.the next govt.MUST be the same or we will pay!
it aint good.i could go on and on but you'd switch off!

[Doug-Morgan]

At the moment, the closing of the canal and the pipeline that runs along side of it are a major concern, although there was only a short spike in prices after it was closed following the Gulf War.

My major concern is what will happen when/if Mubarak leaves office. After the fall of the Egyptian dinasty in a CIA inspired revolt in 1952 that toppled King Farouk, and the 1954 revolution that placed Gamal Nasser in power, Egypt has no instutuinal memory of democratic rule and my concern is that, like so many other "new" democratic governments, it won't know how to act in the best interest of the people. It will be interesting over the next few weeks, months and years to see how the whole thing plays out. If one comes, my fear is that a "peoples republic" will degererate into another dictatorship.

[marv2]

Interesting comments. I also believe that President Obama and the U.S. Government must VERY careful how they respond to this current situation.

[splanky]

I'm watching this with a great deal of pessimism right now and wondering what will be the impact on American life, mostly from an economic focus but also from a socio-political view. It's on the front page now but there is a lot going on on that continent
that I've been bothered about for quite a few years now. In South Africa, Uganda and
recent return to the 60's tensions between Ethiopia and it's neighbors, Eritrea and Somalia...

[soulster]

At the moment, the closing of the canal and the pipeline that runs along side of it are a major concern, although there was only a short spike in prices after it was closed following the Gulf War.

My major concern is what will happen when/if Mubarak leaves office. After the fall of the Egyptian dinasty in a CIA inspired revolt in 1952 that toppled King Farouk, and the 1954 revolution that placed Gamal Nasser in power, Egypt has no instutuinal memory of democratic rule and my concern is that, like so many other "new" democratic governments, it won't know how to act in the best interest of the people. It will be interesting over the next few weeks, months and years to see how the whole thing plays out. If one comes, my fear is that a "peoples republic" will degererate into another dictatorship.

Good post, anf thoughts I agree with. Until something significant happens, all we can do is watch.

[arrr&bee]

Hey no fair this title is misleading...i expected to hear some exotic song about camels kissing in the desert!!!

[roger]

Hey no fair this title is misleading...i expected to hear some exotic song about camels kissing in the desert!!!

Listen to this tune arr&bee .. "Nights Over Egypt" by THE JONES GIRLS and try listening to the lyrics .. maybe they mention your camels .... :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgeZ700D0Dw

[arrr&bee]

listen to this tune arr&bee .. "nights over egypt" by the jones girls and try listening to the lyrics .. Maybe they mention your camels .... :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgez700d0dwhey roger thanks,i remember that song...bring on the harem girls!!!

[marv2]

Hey no fair this title is misleading...i expected to hear some exotic song about camels kissing in the desert!!!

I'm sorry, but it seemed perfect for what I am seeing each night on the World news about events over in Egypt. LOL!

[arrr&bee]

i'm sorry, but it seemed perfect for what i am seeing each night on the world news about events over in egypt. Lol!haaaaaaaaa,hey marv,you're absolutely right brother,you know me always cuttin up!!!

[marv2]

haaaaaaaaa,hey marv,you're absolutely right brother,you know me always cuttin up!!!

Please bro, don't stop! Continue! You are one of my favorites!!!LOL!!!

[arrr&bee]

please bro, don't stop! Continue! You are one of my favorites!!!lol!!!

awwww shucks,i'm speechless!

[marv2]

To lessen the chances of wide spread violence..........................Mubarak should leave NOW! Not in September. I think he still doesn't really get it. This could even increase the odds that some may try to do him great physical harm. Why doesn't the man just go already?

[arrr&bee]

Yeah,hope on one of them kissin camels and go!!!

[olamaebarto]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbKUFEXxvhY&feature=player_embedded

Mubarak is sending out the thugs. He can kiss the US $$$ good-bye now.

[olamaebarto]

My god! Watching ABC right now .... the beatings and attack are totally fucked up.

[robbert]

Thank god it's Friday...
All relatively quiet on the Tahrir Square.

Just three weeks ago I walked through Cairo and i sensed that something was brewing but couldn't lay a finger on it.

[robb_k]

2340
I worked in Egypt during the late 1970s and early 1980s[[also Jordan, Syria, Morocco. It has been a dictatorship all along. But, I'd rather have a Mubarak type in there than The Muslim Brotherhood. Egypt needs to be friendly to USA to get the aid they need. They are FAR from being able to feed their growing population. A fundamentalist Muslim takeover would be a disaster.

[marv2]

2340
I worked in Egypt during the late 1970s and early 1980s[[also Jordan, Syria, Morocco. It has been a dictatorship all along. But, I'd rather have a Mubarak type in there than The Muslim Brotherhood. Egypt needs to be friendly to USA to get the aid they need. They are FAR from being able to feed their growing population. A fundamentalist Muslim takeover would be a disaster.

Robb, with all due respect but isn't that a big part of the problem? I mean Egypt is an ally of the U.S. and does receive a substantial amount of foreign aid from the US Government. Yet all I've heard from the people on the streets in Cairo is that they cannot afford to feed their families, pay their rents or even find jobs that pay a living wage, so my question is with all the millions from the U.S., what are the people suffering so just to have the basics?

[robb_k]

2342

Robb, with all due respect but isn't that a big part of the problem? I mean Egypt is an ally of the U.S. and does receive a substantial amount of foreign aid from the US Government. Yet all I've heard from the people on the streets in Cairo is that they cannot afford to feed their families, pay their rents or even find jobs that pay a living wage, so my question is with all the millions from the U.S., what are the people suffering so just to have the basics?

I'm not defending Mubarak as a "good guy", or USA. I'm ust saying that moving back to The Middle Ages will not help the average Egyptian.

[ms_m]

I'm not defending Mubarak as a "good guy", or USA. I'm ust saying that moving back to The Middle Ages will not help the average Egyptian.

Going backwards will not help the average American citizen but that's not stopping Tea Party Republicans from trying, and a democratic process put them in office. Democracy can be quite messy.

Is democracy for one country only democracy when it's in the best interest of another?

[bobkayli]

Yet another complex issue to come out of the Middle East. Have had a quick tour of Egypt on Wikipedia and reminded myself of Egypts size, population, strategic position and influence. Goodness me, there is so much that can go wrong in this. Oil and Israel are the obvious threats to the West but Egypt is also a key player in so much that goes on in the eastern Mediterranean, the Middle East, Africa, the Arab world and the Islam World.
I see that they have democracy in name already but the imposition of emergency law since Sadats assasination in 1981 means that it is not democracy as we know it. So it seems to me that what is needed at that level is some adaptation of the democracy they already have. We've seen already in Iraq and Afghanistan that such change is easier to talk about than put into practice.
Should Mubarak go without something alternative ready to take his place, there will be a void. Nature abhors vacuums so who knows what that would lead to. Power will flow in some direction no doubt controlled by the military who have the means to take control. I am not sure that this is the best solution from a democratic viewpoint although it may suit the West since they can continue buying the military and keep some sort of a lid on the situation, at least in the short term.
The economic problems facing Egypt will not go away whether Mubarak goes or not. So whatever comes out of this, the people will not be happy with their lot. In that sense, his departure will buy time assuming that any new leader has public support.
There is no clear leader emerging from this either. Having a revolution makes some sort of sense if there is a new order ready to assume control. I don't see this in Egypt. The Muslim Brotherhood seem to have some support but not amongst the existing ruling classes and many ethnic groups.
A period of talking and keeping things calm seems the best thing particularly since Mubarak has said he will leave in September.
The West at least has had the good sense to keep away from telling Egypt what to do. Whether its Hilary, Obama or Cameron, their comments seem to be following events rather than trying to shape them. There is a clear recognition that they are impotent if they wish to impose their will and risk only inflaming matters if they go too strong in one direction or another. At least lessons from previous Egyptian crises are being taken taken on board. No doubt behind the scenes though, there is a lot more going on.
Other than to keep talking and letting a solution emerge, I don't know what else is best for Egypt at the moment. I am fearful that some Western over-reaction could lead to a bloodbath and an even more repressive regime in its place. Meanwhile I keep having to pay more to fill up my car....

[ms_m]

Hi bobkayli

I'm aware of the potential vacum. The media talks about that and the Brotherhood more than they talk about the issues of the people. Although I agree it's always a possibility, I don't see it as being a probability. Not with these kids, their lives have been forever changed. Exchanging one oppressive government for another is not something they will accept. This isn't, nor has it ever been about religion for them, It won't be about religion no matter what happens.

I feel you on the gas issue but to be honest, I'd rather be pissed off about higher gas prices than sitting in the middle of Tahrir square right now or dealing with a government that's willing to kill me because I choose to stand up for myself.

All a matter of perspective I guess.

[smark21]

Going backwards will not help the average American citizen but that's not stopping Tea Party Republicans from trying, and a democratic process put them in office. Democracy can be quite messy.

Is democracy for one country only democracy when it's in the best interest of another?

Speaking of which, I found this article addressed to the Tea Party--This is what a Revolution looks like:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-j-elisberg/the-tea-party-is-not-revo_b_817995.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+HP%2FPolitics+%28Politics+on+ The+Huffington+Post%29&utm_content=Google+Reader

[robb_k]

2347

Yet another complex issue to come out of the Middle East. Have had a quick tour of Egypt on Wikipedia and reminded myself of Egypts size, population, strategic position and influence. Goodness me, there is so much that can go wrong in this. Oil and Israel are the obvious threats to the West but Egypt is also a key player in so much that goes on in the eastern Mediterranean, the Middle East, Africa, the Arab world and the Islam World.
I see that they have democracy in name already but the imposition of emergency law since Sadats assasination in 1981 means that it is not democracy as we know it. So it seems to me that what is needed at that level is some adaptation of the democracy they already have. We've seen already in Iraq and Afghanistan that such change is easier to talk about than put into practice.
Should Mubarak go without something alternative ready to take his place, there will be a void. Nature abhors vacuums so who knows what that would lead to. Power will flow in some direction no doubt controlled by the military who have the means to take control. I am not sure that this is the best solution from a democratic viewpoint although it may suit the West since they can continue buying the military and keep some sort of a lid on the situation, at least in the short term.
The economic problems facing Egypt will not go away whether Mubarak goes or not. So whatever comes out of this, the people will not be happy with their lot. In that sense, his departure will buy time assuming that any new leader has public support.
There is no clear leader emerging from this either. Having a revolution makes some sort of sense if there is a new order ready to assume control. I don't see this in Egypt. The Muslim Brotherhood seem to have some support but not amongst the existing ruling classes and many ethnic groups.
A period of talking and keeping things calm seems the best thing particularly since Mubarak has said he will leave in September.
The West at least has had the good sense to keep away from telling Egypt what to do. Whether its Hilary, Obama or Cameron, their comments seem to be following events rather than trying to shape them. There is a clear recognition that they are impotent if they wish to impose their will and risk only inflaming matters if they go too strong in one direction or another. At least lessons from previous Egyptian crises are being taken taken on board. No doubt behind the scenes though, there is a lot more going on.
Other than to keep talking and letting a solution emerge, I don't know what else is best for Egypt at the moment. I am fearful that some Western over-reaction could lead to a bloodbath and an even more repressive regime in its place. Meanwhile I keep having to pay more to fill up my car....

Well thought out. We can only hope that whoever takes over will bring some measure of additional freedom and better conditions to the basic Egyptian population, rather than a more repressive regime.

[ms_m]

additional freedom?:confused:

Smashing a young mans skull in because he didn't have a license for a fruit stand is freedom?

Jailing activists because they speak against their government is freedom?

Shooting people down in the middle of the streets for protesting peacefully is freedom?

Cutting off communication systems is freedom

Trying to suppress the truth through propaganda is freedom

Amending the Constitution so only one party [[the party in charge) can run for political office is freedom?

Intimidation and torture is freedom?

Living under a dictatorship is freedom?

What freedoms have these people had in the last 30 years? The freedom to live in fear?

I guess as long as the "privileged" have the freedom to walk away and or ignore at will, these conditions, that's freedom, eh?


Somethings never change.:[[

[ms_m]

...and before I go back to my little corner of the world.

As far as I'm concerned, the USA and the United Kingdom [[directly and indirectly) have caused these people more than enough problems decade after decade, both need to concentrate more on crafting a Foreign Policy that works in the 21st Century. It wouldn't hurt if they stop using fear as a weapon to control, and letting greed and power be their motivator. Oh yeah, and the other guys, they have a mighty military and about 200 nukes, they'll be fine...if not, boom goes the dynamite and the world is screwed. shrugs

[robb_k]

2350

additional freedom?:confused:

Smashing a young mans skull in because he didn't have a license for a fruit stand is freedom?

Jailing activists because they speak against their government is freedom?



Shooting people down in the middle of the streets for protesting peacefully is freedom?

Cutting off communication systems is freedom

Trying to suppress the truth through propaganda is freedom

Amending the Constitution so only one party [[the party in charge) can run for political office is freedom?

Intimidation and torture is freedom?

Living under a dictatorship is freedom?

What freedoms have these people had in the last 30 years? The freedom to live in fear?

I guess as long as the "privileged" have the freedom to walk away and or ignore at will, these conditions, that's freedom, eh?


Somethings never change.:[[

Here is what I wrote above:

"I worked in Egypt during the late 1970s and early 1980s[[also Jordan, Syria, Morocco. It has been a dictatorship all along. But, I'd rather have a Mubarak type in there than The Muslim Brotherhood. Egypt needs to be friendly to USA to get the aid they need. They are FAR from being able to feed their growing population. A fundamentalist Muslim takeover would be a disaster."

I never wrote that I wouldn't want The Egyptian people to overthrow The Mubarak regime and rule over themselves and install a government more responsive to the people's needs. I would love for that to happen. I have Egyptian friends. But, also, I am a human being, and want to see freedom and good conditions for all. I just base my statement that as bad as Mubarak's rule was, rule of a military dictator or fundamentalist Islamic regime would be worse. Was Khomeini's rule good for Iran?

Why would anyone who has seen my posts on this forum [[2002 to the present) think I have approved of US foreign policy [[or domestic policy for that matter?)? I have been constantly critical of both. Many people here have been highly critical of me for having anti-American prejudice. And, I certainly am not an "elitist", who can just walk away from The Middle East and its politics. About a third of my extended family lives in Israel. I lived in Jordan for 6 years. I was engaged to a Jordanian woman at one time. I lived and worked in Egypt, The Sudan, Morocco, Syria, Tunisia. I made many Palestinian friends in Jordan, as well as non-Palestinian Jordanians, and have friends in Egypt, Turkey, The Sudan. So, I am on both and neither sides of The Israeli/Arab problem. Throughout the 15 years I worked in The Middle East, I saw Westerners only during working hours. All my spare time was spent together with locals. I do NOT "walk away" from Egypt's problems when I'm 1,500 or 2,500 or 7,500 miles away [[just because I'm "safe"). I have dodged bullets in Damascus during the Muslim Brotherhood's revolt there [[around 30 years ago). I was in Israel during The Six Day War.

I consider USA a dictatorship [[certainly not a "democracy"). Why would I be "happy" with Mubarak's dictatorship in Egypt? Of course I hate it, and all it stands for. My only point was that I hope toppling him doesn't leave a power vacuum that brings in a MORE REPRESSIVE Muslim fundamentalist dictatorship, or brutal military dictatorship.

I can see why my post saying "Well thought out" might be confusing. I overlooked this comment by Bob Kayli: "So it seems to me that what is needed at that level is some adaptation of the democracy they already have." I might have mentioned above that the people's treatment under their present government little resembles democracy. But, I had already mentioned above that they have had one form or another of dictatorship all along. I meant that Bob Kayli's statements that "moving slowly so that there is time for popular support to be given civilian leaders, and avoid a force takeover, and the Western Powers staying out of it" is well thought out.

People who know me would not call me an uncaring "elitist".

[ms_m]

I wasn’t confused. Nor did I accuse you of anything or call you any names. I asked you several questions, questions you didn’t answer. Questions I can show example after example of being valid. Well I exaggerated slightly on the one political party thing, but the spirit is the same.

The issues of the Egyptian revolt and those of Iranian revolt are apples and oranges and let’s be honest, neither the Khomeini nor the Shah were angels in their actions prior to the overthrow.

The Brotherhood has been about peace, modernization and inclusiveness for decades. They may or may not have a great love for Israel but going to war or closing the canal would not be in Egypt’s best economic interest which is really the heart of the opposition to the Brotherhood; economics…not religion. Bur fear mongering is a great tool for hiding motives.

As far as the US, what you think about the country is your prerogative but I can stand on the corner and protest against my government until the cows come home and not worry too much about getting killed. [[unless I’m in Houston or deep in Tea Party country but that’s another issue)

[ms_m]

A Short Primer on Egypt Now

http://americanfootprints.com/wp/2011/01/a-short-primer-on-egypt-now/

This link failed in my thread which I will correct but research and listening first hand to the protesters and their stories, as well as Egyptian, Arab, Israeli, EU and US historians, pundits, diplomats, etc., and of course US and International news outlets from all points of view... I'm satisfied this essay hits the nail on the head.

I'm not discounting your knowledge and experiences, I can only imagine how horrid bullets flying around you must have been but hearing the stories of people who are willing to die for their freedom, seeing people getting killed and beaten, are compelling as well.

[robb_k]

2352

I wasn’t confused. Nor did I accuse you of anything or call you any names. I asked you several questions, questions you didn’t answer. Questions I can show example after example of being valid. Well I exaggerated slightly on the one political party thing, but the spirit is the same.

The issues of the Egyptian revolt and those of Iranian revolt are apples and oranges and let’s be honest, neither the Khomeini nor the Shah were angels in their actions prior to the overthrow.

The Brotherhood has been about peace, modernization and inclusiveness for decades. They may or may not have a great love for Israel but going to war or closing the canal would not be in Egypt’s best economic interest which is really the heart of the opposition to the Brotherhood; economics…not religion. Bur fear mongering is a great tool for hiding motives.

As far as the US, what you think about the country is your prerogative but I can stand on the corner and protest against my government until the cows come home and not worry too much about getting killed. [[unless I’m in Houston or deep in Tea Party country but that’s another issue)

I agree also that The Shah's rule in Iran was terrible. I'm not in favour of The Europeans or Americans having colonised The third World and backed dictators all over The World to their own advantage.

I would answer every one of your questions the same as you would. I was never trying to defend Mubarak's regime in any way. I'll say again what I stated above. I only hope that the new regime that takes over is more responsible to the people's needs. IF The Muslim Brotherhood takes over and behaves that way [[and does not bring a police state and warlike state), then I'd have no problem with it. I did not know that The Muslim Brotherhood has had modernization as a goal for decades. Or, at least, I did not know that "The Muslim Brotherhood" in Egypt is part of an international Muslim Brotherhood that is for peace and modernisation.

Personally, I'd rather see a coalition of all major groups that represent, basically, all the people in Egypt participate in the next regime. I'm not against the basic tenets of Islam, just as I am not against those of Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, or any other religion [[only against regimes that do destructive things in the name of those religions).

[robb_k]

2352

I wasn’t confused. Nor did I accuse you of anything or call you any names. I asked you several questions, questions you didn’t answer. Questions I can show example after example of being valid. Well I exaggerated slightly on the one political party thing, but the spirit is the same.

The issues of the Egyptian revolt and those of Iranian revolt are apples and oranges and let’s be honest, neither the Khomeini nor the Shah were angels in their actions prior to the overthrow.

The Brotherhood has been about peace, modernization and inclusiveness for decades. They may or may not have a great love for Israel but going to war or closing the canal would not be in Egypt’s best economic interest which is really the heart of the opposition to the Brotherhood; economics…not religion. Bur fear mongering is a great tool for hiding motives.

As far as the US, what you think about the country is your prerogative but I can stand on the corner and protest against my government until the cows come home and not worry too much about getting killed. [[unless I’m in Houston or deep in Tea Party country but that’s another issue)

I agree also that The Shah's rule in Iran was terrible. I'm not in favour of The Europeans or Americans having colonised The third World and backed dictators all over The World to their own advantage.

I would answer every one of your questions the same as you would. I was never trying to defend Mubarak's regime in any way. I'll say again what I stated above. I only hope that the new regime that takes over is more responsible to the people's needs. IF The Muslim Brotherhood takes over and behaves that way [[and does not bring a police state and warlike state), then I'd have no problem with it. I did not know that The Muslim Brotherhood has had modernization as a goal for decades. Or, at least, I did not know that "The Muslim Brotherhood" in Egypt is part of an international Muslim Brotherhood that is for peace and modernisation.

Personally, I'd rather see a coalition of all major groups that represent, basically, all the people in Egypt participate in the next regime. I'm not against the basic tenets of Islam, just as I am not against those of Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, or any other religion [[only against regimes that do destructive things in the name of those religions[[as virtually all the Christian, Moslem, Jewish, Hindu, and even most of the Bhuddist states have done in the past).

[ms_m]

We're talking over each other, my issue was with, "additional freedoms." You have to have freedoms to begin with, in order to add to them Robb K.

The brotherhood has a following of somewhere between 20-30% of the population. Before they were banned they actually picked up something like 80 seats in Parliament. That was the will of the people and Mubarak freaked. Kinda hard to steal when you don't have your hand picked base all around you to watch your back.

It seems to me, you , the media and many people are truly missing the point here. As far as the protesters are concerned, this is about the Egyptian people, not an ideology.

They want free and fair elections, they want a govt that's not #125 on the most corrupt list, they want freedom of assembly, speech , press... they want the ability to make a living and live with dignity and respect. They want a secular democratic society with all it's faults and imperfections.

This is their moment in time and for now, it's their interest and their country that motivates them. Not the interest of the US, Israel, EU the military, Islam, Christians, you, me or anyone else.

Whether they agree on every issue or not, they are Egyptians first and foremost. A foreign concept I know but they really see themselves as one. What will happen later is anyone's guess but for now they all share the same goal...the dismantling of the Mubarak Regime.

When it's time to vote, they will vote. Hopefully, they will be able to vote without intimidation and fear and once the votes are counted, it will be the will of the people. Some people will be happy, others will not but at least they will have been given a free and democratic choice. Who they choose, is on them and everyone else around the world will have to find a way to deal with it....how others deal with it, is the real issue, not who the Egyptians vote for.

[robb_k]

We don't disagree on any point. I already mentioned above that by "additional freedoms" I meant more freedom. I didn't mean to imply that they aren't under a repressive dictatorship [[as I stated above-)"They've been under a dictatorship all along". Using the word "additional" was a poor choice of wording. I get the point that they want free elections and to be out from under the repressive dictatorship. As I stated before, I'll be glad if they obtain those freedoms. I am glad to learn that The Muslim Brotherhood is for modernisation.

[robb_k]

2355
We don't disagree on any point. I already mentioned above that by "additional freedoms" I meant more freedom. I didn't mean to imply that they aren't under a repressive dictatorship [[as I stated above-)"They've been under a dictatorship all along". Using the word "additional" was a poor choice of wording. I get the point that they want free elections and to be out from under the repressive dictatorship. As I stated before, I'll be glad if they obtain those freedoms. I am glad to learn that The Muslim Brotherhood is for modernisation.

[marv2]

...and before I go back to my little corner of the world.

As far as I'm concerned, the USA and the United Kingdom [[directly and indirectly) have caused these people more than enough problems decade after decade, both need to concentrate more on crafting a Foreign Policy that works in the 21st Century. It wouldn't hurt if they stop using fear as a weapon to control, and letting greed and power be their motivator. Oh yeah, and the other guys, they have a mighty military and about 200 nukes, they'll be fine...if not, boom goes the dynamite and the world is screwed. shrugs

I'll be blunt, the USA, UK and some other countries have never cared about the people of Egypt, just their own national interests. Now it is time for the people to care about themselves, their children and their futures!

[ms_m]

Marv I was referring to the history of both countries and their policy decisions toward Egypt over the years. They care if simply because of their respective interest but to be fair, here in America, I've met people that didn't even know Egypt was in Africa. If I start pointing fingers it wouldn't be only at the government.

[ms_m]

RobbK you're right, they have been under a dictatorship for years and living in fear for the same amount of time but now they are fearless and awake. If and when they finally get from under the current regime, I'm not concerned they will fall prey to more repression under any system. They have a long and hard road ahead of them but I've been extremely impressed with their tenacity, and determination, especially the youth.

Tunisia and Egypt have stirred a spark in that part of the world, it doesn't have to be a bad thing but a force for good if our world leaders and the people they lead could get their collective heads out of their butts. That's not directed at you but people in general.

[ms_m]

Robbk, CNN International had a discussion with an Egyptian professor that explained how the Muslim Brotherhood are not the Taliban and not Al Qaeda and how authoritarian rulers falsely exploit MB as a bogyman in order to justify their hold onto power. I can't embed the video but the link below will take you to the transcript.

http://archives.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1102/05/cnr.07.html

Another panel discussion I saw also pointed out how the Western World is constantly comparing Egypt with Iran as oppose to pointing out the successful integration of Muslims in politics in Turkey. He also mentioned how the West hasn’t batted an eye at the Muslin Brotherhood’s involvement in the ongoing Tunisian transition.

[smark21]

I"m a cynic, but whatever and whoever replaces Mubarack in Egypt will be just as corrupt and brutal as Mubarack. The only difference is that different groups will be in favor of the regime and benefit from the gravy train of favors and corruption,and the means and devices to keep the remainder of the population subjected may differ in how they are applied and used. As the cliche goes, the more things change, the more they stay the same. I predict in 5 years, many of the courageous people demonstrating in Egypt will be very disillusioned with what they end up getting and discontent will fester until a new uprising occurs, whenever that may be.

[ms_m]

RobbK this essay is part of an excellent series you and Bobkayli might find interesting

Spreading Egyptian values


About this series: Adalah [[Arabic for "justice") is a diary series about the Middle East, with special [[but not exclusive) emphasis on the Arab-Israeli conflict. The authors of this series believe that a just resolution respecting the rights and dignity of both Palestinians and Israelis is the only viable option for peace

http://www.newleftproject.org/index.php/nlpblog/spreading_egyptian_values


Here is another interesting op ed although quite possibly controversial

A U.S. accepted by the Arab world is good for Israel

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/a-u-s-accepted-by-the-arab-world-is-good-for-israel-1.341500

[marv2]

Marv I was referring to the history of both countries and their policy decisions toward Egypt over the years. They care if simply because of their respective interest but to be fair, here in America, I've met people that didn't even know Egypt was in Africa. If I start pointing fingers it wouldn't be only at the government.



You are so right ms_m. Taking what you said a step further, many do not know that the term "Middle East" was just a military term used to designate that area of the World. It wasmade up by some U.S. Military offical years ago. Egypt is an African nation, as well as Algers, Tunisia, etc,etc .

[ms_m]

Marv you've lost me but it's my fault not yours since I wrote more of a Reader's Digest version of what I was actually thinking.

My point has to do with how countries have played a part in where we are now in terms of Egypt and the region in general....ie, the colonization of lands by Britain[[as well as France) the dividing of said land, our involvement and Foreign Policies Concerning the area etc....

I should have made that clearer but it's a complicated issue that often leads to controversy and I just didn't want to go down that road. Plus I tend to think faster than I type. Because I'm a lousy typist, I often take the easy road out in expressing myself.

Bottom line, we've had the same basic Foreign Policy since Woodrow Wilson. The world has changed and imo we haven't kept up, not too mention, our policies are often fueled by public opinion...

but I'm about to go down another road so forgive me. LOL

[bobkayli]

Just to clarify what I said about democracy. My [[limited) understanding is that Egypt actually is a democracy. Democracy has however been perverted out of shape because of a 'state of emergency' which has lasted 30 years.

Ms M I did not express myself clearly about Mubarek. He has said he will stay until September which gives everyone time. I should have added that clearly if a solution can be found sooner, then he should go sooner. If he goes without a solution in place, then the military will almost be obliged to assume control because there will be no-one else.

This still has a long way to run. Today a mass is united against Mubarek but it is not clear what they actually stand for except for wanting him out. When that happens, I imagine that many groups will want many different things. How that pans out, I don't see. Talking allows that to evolve. I am not in any way clear that there is a mandate for democracy as we know it. I am even less clear that any election would be fair and free for all the reasons RobbK has indicated..

The military seem most able to assume control at the moment, the religious element probably a close second. Any solution must involve these two elements and ignores them at their peril. Already todays talks show this emerging.

If all can keep their heads, there will be elections of some sort. To push too far too quickly carries a great risk of de-stabilisation which, i know i'm repeating myself but would almost force the military to assume control to establish some semblance of order.

I do think though, that whatever emerges, there will be a less pro-western stance in Egypt coming out of this. this has many other potential consequences outside of Egypt. There will be another series of considerations to be made as a result on Israel, the Gulf, the Arab world and Islam and all that may mean. It is all going to become a tad more complicated.

As regards David Camerons speech on multi-culturalism, he once again is showing his lack of political skill. To make such a speech when in UK there was a mass demonstration by the English Defence League in a town with a large Asian immigrant population and also while the Egypt situation is evolving seems naive and ill-timed to say the least. He is proving a lightweight on the international stage.

Ms M: You'll tell me I'm full of something but I'm always glad to see that you have lost none of your political passion and considered reasoning. What's going on in Egypt is too important to behave otherwise.

[ms_m]

I"m a cynic, but whatever and whoever replaces Mubarack in Egypt will be just as corrupt and brutal as Mubarack. The only difference is that different groups will be in favor of the regime and benefit from the gravy train of favors and corruption,and the means and devices to keep the remainder of the population subjected may differ in how they are applied and used. As the cliche goes, the more things change, the more they stay the same. I predict in 5 years, many of the courageous people demonstrating in Egypt will be very disillusioned with what they end up getting and discontent will fester until a new uprising occurs, whenever that may be.

Smark21, I’ve been thinking about your statement all day. On a certain level I can understand your cynicism but I’d really like to know where that cynicism comes from.

The youth in Egypt have been quite active since 2005 and they have staged protest off and on for years. American media hasn’t really reported it so in the minds of some, I wonder how many people understand how unprecedented and amazing this has been.

This particular protest caught a lot of people off guard and I think that would include the protesters themselves. It was what some have called, organic in nature and took a life of it’s on. I think that also explains why there wasn’t any organize leadership in place.

Previously they would protest, it would end, activist were thrown in jail and or killed, concessions and promises were made and broken, a moment of quiet and it would start all over again.

This went beyond that, something in these people simply snapped. I’m sure the revolt in Tunisia played a large role but I also think it was as simple as being, sick and tired of being sick and tired.

No one knows how this will end but even if they are not successful this time, the lives of these people have been forever changed and I do not believe they will give up. They will keep coming, keep growing and keep learning.

If it is successful and the new leaders are going against the will of the people, yep, they will take to the streets again. I see that as doing what many groups here in the USA play lip service to, taking back their country. To me, that's a good thing.

[ms_m]

:)

Always good to talk to you Bobkayli.

Democracy in name, autocracy in reality.

I really think Suleiman is calling the shots and it would not surprise me if he has been for years. [[rumors have said Mubarak is in poor health and has been for awhile)

But I wouldn't trust Suleiman anymore than Mubarak. I'm on the side of thought that negations should not even take place until Murbarak and Suleiman step down. How the heck do you trust people who do not have any problems shooting you down like a dog in front of the entire world? Not to mention, many of the protesters feel like they have nothing to loose because if they walk away now and the regime remains in charge, they are pretty much dead men/women walking.

I understand the economy is loosing massive amounts of money and I understand people want their "normal" lives back but normal doesn't necessarily equate to good.

Cameron has annoyed me but not half as much as Blair....ughhhhhhhhhhhhh

...and to tell you the truth as much as I support President Obama I'm not entirely happy with him either. Intellectually I understand the complicated position he's in but emotionally...at some point, if you're going to talk the talk, you've got to walk, the walk...glad I'm not him right now...shrugs....we shall see how this all plays out.

Oh yeah and as long as Egyptian State TV exist, too many people will continue to be brainwashed.

[ms_m]

BTW Bobkayli I think complications would occur but they don't have to be insurmountable.

I think a lot of excellent points were made in this article

A U.S. accepted by the Arab world is good for Israel [[http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition...srael-1.341500)

[bobkayli]

I'm maybe oversimplistic but I remember the film 'the life of brian'. There all of the palestinians hated the romans so much that it became a focal point. In reality they hated each other more and the romans were probably the force guaranteeing peace. granted this is real life and Egypt rather than Palestine but the lesson hit home to me.
I was listening to a BBC radio discussion with egyptians from several sides on the way home in the car. They all have such different perceptions of what they want post-mubarek. Even the Muslim Brotherhood itself has many factions and is far from united. Those in the square protesting are very brave but remain a minority. There are 85 million people in egypt.
I think the US keeping out of the fray is probably best for the US long term. There was a clear view that foreigners should keep out of what they considered a strictly egyptian affair, it was almost the only thing that they agreed on. The military have played it smart thus far but the minute it turns ugly, they have the resources to exercise control and they would have a justification. There also seems to be an elite that still supports the existing regime, what sway they have is not clear.
I just think that they should all be careful what they wish for because the real problems will begin when Mubarek goes.
hopefully the talking can continue even if Mubarek and co cannot be trusted. You can only talk with who is on the other side of the table and the alternative seems to be fighting them which will solve nothing.

[ms_m]

At this point bobkayli I agree the US should stay out of it, completely out of it.

When you listen to the people on the ground, they don't even recognize the opposition that's stepping forth now, including the Muslin Brotherhood. They have put together their own committee members and stand by their resolve they will not even come to the table until Mubarak leaves.

It doesn't have to be chaos if the Army would pick a side but the pull of the status quo is strong and they want to keep their power too.

Everyone has an agenda and jumped on the bandwagon either deliberately or to protect their interest. The Brotherhood wasn't even involved initially thinking the protest would never get anywhere or attract attention, which is how it's been in the past.

The media focuses on Tahrir Square as if those guys are the only ones involved while ignoring protest that continue to go on all around the country.

Initially, everyone was running around saying there would be a vacum and the Muslim Brotherhood would co op the movement. Well there has been a vacum and it has been cop opted... by the Mubarak Regime, The West, Israel and all the opposition parties trying to get a seat at the corrupt table.

Mubarak throws people a bone, Suleiman directs this smoke and screen sham of a negotiation and the ones that have died and the ones standing their ground are being sold down the drain.....

and the beat goes on!

[ms_m]

According the UK diplomatic sources quoted in the reports, the former interior minister had built up in over six years a special security system that was managed by 22 officers and that employed a number of former radical Islamists, drug dealers and some security firms to carry out acts of sabotage around the country in case the regime was under threat to collapse.

Probe starts on Adly’s reported role in Alex church attack
Ex-minister suspected behind Alex church bombing
Monday, 07 February 2011


CAIRO [[Farrag Ismael)
Egypt's general prosecutor on Monday opened probe on former Interior Minister Habib el-Adly's reported role in the New Year's Eve bombing of al-Qiddissin Church in Alexandria in which 24 people were killed, an Egyptian lawyer told Al Arabiya.

Laywer Ramzi Mamdouh said he had presented a proclamation to Egyptian prosecutor Abd al-Majid Mahmud to investigate news media reports suggesting that the former interior ministry had masterminded the deadly church attack with the intent to blame it on Islamists, escalate government crackdown on them, and gain increased western support for the regime.

Mahmud said the information contained in some reports were "serious."
The proclamation, numbered 1450, pointed to the news reports sourcing a UK diplomat who explained the reasons why Britain has insisted on the immediate departure of Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak and his regime, especially his interior ministry's security apparatus previously directed by el-Adly.

Full Story [[http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2011/02/07/136723.html)

[ms_m]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFm7lCMEzzk

[StuBass1]

Somebody please tell the Egyptians to leave those pyramids ALONE. We built them once, and we AIN'T building them again!

[bobkayli]

on a formal level Mubarek was elected President so is quite within his rights to decide when he goes.

on a pragmatic level I can't imagine he is staying on without the support of the military so will be hard to overthrow without bloodshed.

i agree that he is digging in. the fight for change will be a long road. Noone of the elite will give their power away without a struggle.

the problem that the protesters have had from the beginning is the lack of a focal point, someone to mobilise a unified response. Until that happens, is it right to leave a people of 85 million without a leader? Continuing the state of emergency would be more justified than ever if there is anarchy on the streets. It could quickly appear that he is the only voice of reason in such a situation. Hopefully this won't happen

the saudis seem to be warning the west off interfering and are covertly supporting Mubarek so already the oil card is coming to the surface. The further the west stays away from this the better.

[marv2]

Mubarak was suppose to be leaving today, but in his speech this afternoon......he ain't leaving! Even I am starting to get pissed. There is definitely going to be violence behind this. He could have avoided it,.

[arrr&bee]

Egypt was ok when the camels were running things,then the u.s.had to go over there and talk em into doing those cigarette commercials and they went all hollywood.

[marv2]

Egypt was ok when the camels were running things,then the u.s.had to go over there and talk em into doing those cigarette commercials and they went all hollywood.

Please stop......hehehehehehehe!!!!

[ms_m]

bobkayli

I understand what you're saying but don't necessarily agree. The protesters have been extremely focused and organized. They have committees set up throughout the protesters from all different groups, they have medical supplies, their own security force, food and clothing supplies, a clean up force, etc.

This is not, nor has it ever been about one person but about the people. This has never been about the USA, Israel, the rest of the Middle East, oil, stability, Muslim Brotherhood, opposition parties, but the Egyptian people and their rights. For whatever reason no one understands or accepts that. They play lip service to it but they are so busy with their own agenda they are not LISTENING!

I understand everyone have their worries but their worries are not those of these protesters. To them, it's about social justice not politics.

They want Mubarak and his regime out, they will not accept anything less and will not even try to negotiate until he's out. So what would be the point of one leader stepping up until the old regime leaves?

The groups that sat down with Suleiman did not represent the protesters, they did their own thing because of their own agendas and the protesters are cool with it and even understand they have to do whatever it is they do, but do not recognize them as their leaders. When you put out a call for millions of people and they come out and are peaceful, to think the protesters are not in charge of their own destiny, is an insult to each an every person on the street.

When and if Mubarak and now Suleiman goes, they will have members of "their" committees sit down with whoever is in charge but until then, they will continue on.

Don't know about the media there but the US media sucks when it comes to reporting this. AJE is not the best media outlet and their anchors can be annoying sometime [[just like most outlets) but they have been on top of this like no other outlet I've seen. They push and prod to the point of making you want to throw something at them but whenever they speak to pro democracy protesters, all the pushing in the world does not provoke these people. They are not deterred from their goals and they KNOW what those goals are. The panels AJE show are extremely informative helping people to understand the minds of the people in the street.

Now, with that arrogant statement tonight, things could escalate because they are PISSED but I personally think that is what this regime was going for. They want to provoke, they want them to loose control so they can justify force against them.

Not all of these folks are "young" there are many older people in the crowd from all walks of life and the young KNOW their history. They remember Nasser pulling the same trick on them back in the 50"s.

It's really tense right now, many have left Tahrir Square and camping out at the Parliament and tomorrow should be another massive turnout. Don't know how this will turn out right now but the next 24-48 hours are going to be crucial to this movement and the military will FINALLY have to step in and show who their allegiance is to, the regime or the people.

[ms_m]

This is a statement I can stand behind.


The Egyptian people have made it clear that there is no going back to the way things were: Egypt has changed, and its future is in the hands of the people. Those who have exercised their right to peaceful assembly represent the greatness of the Egyptian people, and are broadly representative of Egyptian society. We have seen young and old, rich and poor, Muslim and Christian join together, and earn the respect of the world through their non-violent calls for change. In that effort, young people have been at the forefront, and a new generation has emerged. They have made it clear that Egypt must reflect their hopes, fulfill their highest aspirations, and tap their boundless potential. In these difficult times, I know that the Egyptian people will persevere, and they must know that they will continue to have a friend in the United States of America.


Full Speech [[http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/10/mubarak-wont-step-down-i-_n_821568.html#691_obama-on-egypt)

[smark21]

Unlike Jennifer Holliday and Jennifer Hudson, Mubarak is not able to win a crowd over when he performs "And I'm Telling You, I'm Not Going".

[olamaebarto]

Unlike Jennifer Holliday and Jennifer Hudson, Mubarak is not able to win a crowd over when he performs "And I'm Telling You, I'm Not Going".

You are so crazy!!!

I listened to that assholes address today via Randi Rhodes show. And when he was spewing on Randi said "he's not going" and the translator could be heard trying to speak but you could tell he was repulsed by the words of Mubarak's shit.

Reminds me of Marcos in 1986.

[ms_m]

Bobkayli,

I'm watching a mini documentary now about a group called the April 6 Movement. They were formed in 2008 and have been the backbone of most major protests in Egypt for the last several years. They are extremely organized, dedicated and on top of things AND there ARE leaders. Not as in a political leader but someone who helps people who help themselves.

This is a "peoples' movement" and the media and those outside of Egypt will never get it until they stop looking at this through the eyes of the West. Which imo has been the reason for so many failed polices from the Western world and it's leaders towards the Middle East.


AJE [[Al Jazeera/English) usually repeat their programs so if you check their site on the net you should be able to find the next broadcast. The documentary is called "People In Power."

[ms_m]

Mubarak has resigned!

[ms_m]

The MILITARY will take control of Egypt during the transition!!!


Bobkayli: Not a bad accomplishment for a "leaderless" group of protesters, eh?:cool:

[ms_m]

CAIRO — President Hosni Mubarak of Egypt turned over all power to the military, and left the Egyptian capital for his resort home in Sharm el-Sheik, Vice President Omar Suleiman announced on state television on Friday.
The announcement, delivered during evening prayers in Cairo, set off a frenzy of celebration, with protesters shouting “Egypt is free!”
The Egyptian military issued a communiqué pledging to carry out a variety of constitutional reforms in a statement notable for its commanding tone. The military’s statement alluded to the delegation of power to Vice President Omar Suleiman and it suggested that the military would supervise implementation of the reforms.


Tanks outside prez palace turn their barrels away from crowd. Cheer goes up. One soldier climbs out of tank, hangs #Egypt flag on turret

3o years of rule is now over!

[marv2]

.....and he is OUTTA THERE! POWER TO THE PEOPLE!

[olamaebarto]

Mubarak has resigned!

th,th,th, THAT'S ALL FOLKS!

Don't let the door hit ya in the ass on the way out!

[ms_m]

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h74/mmandmusic/untiERYUtled.jpg

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h74/mmandmusic/unzAE3titled.jpg

[jobeterob]

At least one country in the Middle East has been able to "say goodbye" and they've done so relatively peacefully so far. Hopefully, what is to come turns out to be a breath of fresh air.

[ms_m]

Statement From the Supreme Council of the Egyptian Armed Forces

Full EAF Supreme Council Statement: The Supreme Council of the Egyptian Armed Forces issued its second statement today Friday. It says the following:


Due to the consecutive developments in current incidents and which define the destiny of the country, and in context of continuous follow up for internal and external incidents, and the decision to delegate responsibilities to the vice president of the country, and in belief in our national responsibility to preserve the stability and safety of the nation.

The Supreme Council of the Egyptian Armed Forces decided to secure the implementation of the following procedures:

First: End the state of emergency as soon as the current circumstances are over.
Decide on the appeals against elections and consequent measures.

Conduct needed legislative amendments and conduct free and fair presidential elections in light of the approved constitutional amendments.

Second: The Armed forces are committed to sponsor the legitimate demands of the people and achieving them by following on the implementation of these procedures in the defined time frames with all accuracy and seriousness and until the peaceful transfer of authority is completed towards a free democratic community that the people aspire to.

Third: The Armed Forces emphasize on no security pursuit of the honest people who refused the corruption and demanded reforms, and warns against touching the security and safety of the nation and the people. And emphasizes the need for regular work in state facilities and regaining of life to normal to preserve the interests and possessions of our great people.

God protect the nation and the people.

[ms_m]

Out with the old...

military have disbanded cabinet and both houses of parliament

[ms_m]

You can breathe now Bobkayli;)

Oil prices fall on Mubarak's resignation

http://money.cnn.com/2011/02/11/markets/food_prices_commodities/index.htm

[ms_m]

President Obama speaking on Egypt


"Egyptians have inspired us" by putting "lie to the idea that justice must be gained through violence. He says in the protests we hear the "echoes of history." Quoting Martin Luther King: "there's something in the soul that cries out for freedom."

[marv2]

Now that's what I call a TEA PARTY! hehehehehehe! Go Egypt!

[ms_m]

Throw shoes not bombs

The Tea Party could learn from this....although I doubt they will, they're much too afraid waiting for the boogeyman to come.:rolleyes:

The Egyptians want peace because they know it's in the best interest of the Egyptian people.

I've always felt, it's not the protesters or what thy were trying to achieve that people needed to worry about, but the folks that are shaking in their boots....

[ms_m]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryW_zDi4994&feature=player_embedded

[destruction]

Somebody please tell the Egyptians to leave those pyramids ALONE. We built them once, and we AIN'T building them again!

To quote from Oscar Brown's "The Lone Ranger"

"......,we,......?"

[Doug-Morgan]

One thing that may have had an influence on the army brass is that it is a conscription.....as in drafted......army. An army made up of "the people", and if they had turned the army on the population, forces may have turned against the command staff.

It's going to be interesting to watch over the next few months. The fact that Mubarak has been replaced by a Supreme Council doesn't mean democracy will come to Egypt. First, it's not an easy concept to grasp, especially if you're a country like Egypt, with no insutuional memory of what self determination is like.

Second, the Egyptian Constitution has been suspended if only by the fact that a junta has taken over outside of the scope of the constitution. Changes in the document are good and welcome, but it would be up to the Supreme Council, already operating outside of the "founding document" to change the constitution in a way the people will accept, then relinquish the power it has currently taken once the changes are made. One can and should hope for the best, but it wouldn't hurt to keep your fingers crossed, too.

[bobkayli]

Hi Ms M

Great news. The protesters deserve to enjoy the moment.

It is the time to savour the moment so I'll stay quiet [[well almost) but there's a lot going on in my head about why this happened and what happens next.

The military have played it about right up to now and I sincerely hope it continues this way.

Meanwhile I want to see these petrol prices dropping at my service station like you promised..... :)

[ms_m]

I didn't promise, they did
Oil prices fall on Mubarak's resignation

http://money.cnn.com/2011/02/11/mark...ties/index.htm


Right now the people are celebrating, as well they should. They gave their blood for this moment. Tonight they party, tomorrow they will get down to work.

Apparently Murbarak screwed the military last night. [[so goes the rumor) As a matter of fact, the 1st report that came out last night was from the Military saying he would step down. Even the Whitehouse was under that impression. Supposedly when he made that statement, everyone was pissed.

The eyes of the people are open, I wish people would give them credit where credit is do. They are not stupid people, they know this will not be easy but there is no going back, they will not be beaten down again.

I can't speak for what powers outside of Egypt will do but Egypt and it's people will never be the same, time for people to learn to live with it!

[bobkayli]

btw the first person I thought of when I heard the news was you. I knew how happy you'd be and that put a stupid smile on my face.

your enthusiasm is infectious!

as for fuel prices, you told me I could breathe again. I'm going to sit in the service station forecourt until they put their prices down [[unless its raining or cold of course).

[ms_m]

Bobkayli I can't begin to tell you how happy I am for the people of Egypt. I'm also extremely impressed with their resolve and their courage. They showed the entire world that the voice of the people could make a change, not guns or some political leader but the people!

While everyone was running around saying the sky was falling, they refuse to give up, they refuse to give in....and they will keep on, keeping on, fighting for the life they know they deserve....even if it means going back to the streets!

This could be the very thing that was needed to change how people see the people of the Middle East, the decent people, everyday people, not the extremist but the real people of the Middle East. They want the same things we want, they want peace, a decent life, freedom....but there will always be skeptics, always be someone that will try to tear others down, such is life...but never again will it be the life for the Egyptian people! Amazing what happens when people finally wake up!!!!:D

[bobkayli]

It's been a brave achievement and they deserve all the support we can give them. Let's hope it is the start of better times. My world weariness reminds me that deserts contain mirages and shifting sands but tonight it's certainly Midnight at the Oasis for the Egyptians as Maria Muldaur would have put it.
Better stop my bad Sahara analogies before I depress myself! This is supposed to be a happy night.
Coincidentally I have had Chairman of the Board playing on i-tunes in the background. 'Working on a building of love' and 'I'm on my way to a better place' seemed to fit with what's going on. Then Curtis came on with 'keep on keeping on' which fits well too. Is this a sign?
I wish that standing in a square protesting would get my kitchen re-fitted as quick as it makes a government fall. Two months planning already with nothing to show yet. Any ideas to help on this one?

[ms_m]

Now here is an interesting little quote, I'm listening to report from a reporter who spoke with an Israeli official who said, Israel's major concern is not the Peace Accord, "they are worried they will no longer be able to act with impunity against the Palestinian People."

In the past they always relied on Mubarak to back them up no matter how they acted toward the Palestinian people. Even when the rest of the world complained, they could point to Egypt, an Arab country and say, they are ok with it. They are afraid, that's about to change. They are afraid a new Egyptian democracy will no longer accept it....well, well, well.

Much too early to tell and it will take time and hard work but THIS, could be change you can believe in!:cool:

[ms_m]

Any ideas to help on this one?

Egyptian workers??? LOL

[bobkayli]

Great idea!

The price that the fitters are asking could kick-start the Egyptian economy.

Am off to bed now as its 1 a.m. here.

Enjoy the rest of your day!!

[ms_m]

nite, nite:)

[marv2]

Now here is an interesting little quote, I'm listening to report from a reporter who spoke with an Israeli official who said, Israel's major concern is not the Peace Accord, "they are worried they will no longer be able to act with impunity against the Palestinian People."

In the past they always relied on Mubarak to back them up no matter how they acted toward the Palestinian people. Even when the rest of the world complained, they could point to Egypt, an Arab country and say, they are ok with it. They are afraid, that's about to change. They are afraid a new Egyptian democracy will no longer accept it....well, well, well.

Much too early to tell and it will take time and hard work but THIS, could be change you can believe in!:cool:

Oh it is going to change. It is all going to change.

[ms_m]

I hope so Marv, I have total and complete faith in the people of Egypt, err body else, I'll keep my good eye on ....including the good old US of A.

Our Foreign Policy has sucked for too long, I would rather see President Obama go down fighting to finally change it, than continue the status quo....but when all is said and done, the people here have to change their mindset as well. We can't keep pointing the finger at Washington when we are burying our heads in the sand too.

[ms_m]

Egypt to respect all treaties


Egypt's military authorities have reaffirmed the country's commitment to all its international treaties.

The announcement, which was read by a senior officer on state TV, implicitly confirms that the country's peace treaty with Israel will remain intact.

The military also vowed to oversee a peaceful transition to civilian rule.

[ms_m]

Bobkayli I was listening to an explanation as to why the protesters were so averse to having one leader speak for them. They truly want a government of the people, by the people and for the people. Their goal is not to elect someone and then go about their business; they plan to stay actively involved in their government and their country.

They are intelligent, realistic and understand change is a process that will not happen over night but they want to see a government that is honest and accountable to the people. They are not even leaving the Square until they feel confident, their government is heading in the right direction. They are truly committed and it will continue to be inspiring to watch the Egyptian people truly take back their country.

They have been beaten down and apathetic for so long, they don’t plan to turn back and the fact there are an estimated 80 plus million people with 50% under the age of 30, I think they have a real change at achieving their goals in the long term.

Today as they go around the cities cleaning and picking up their trash they are passing out fliers to let people know it’s their obligation and civic duty, to stay engage.

I have a friend whose favorite saying is, “don’t tell me who you are, show me what you do.” So far what the Egyptian people “do,” tells me all I need to know about the heart and soul of the Egyptian people.

[bobkayli]

Work starts on my kitchen on tuesday!

Not a bad analysis of what's next:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12438007

Seeing Algeria and Yemen having similar protests suggests that there is a lot more to come. They are both very different from Egypt though.

In the end a leader has to be chosen. Not choosing has helped until now because it has kept the focus channelled on ousting Mubarek and the differences submerged. but there comes a time when protesting stops and running a country becomes important. Then the differences will emerge. Hopefully they can be managed.

The military have shown already a very shrewd approach and will be no pushover. Will ousting Mubarek be enough for the masses when the euphoria has dissipated? Not for the protesters certainly, but keeping mass support of this sort is not easy, people have families, lives to lead, bills to pay. This is the protesters real challenge now.

There is a long road ahead. i wish them well.

[ms_m]

Obviously a leader will be chosen through an election but you're missing my point. The best example I can give you is what I've seen here in the States. A large majority of the people in this country feel the only thing they need to do is vote, and many don't even bother to do that. Yet they are easy to criticize and bitch when the people they elect are not doing what they want. That's all they do, sit around doing nothing but bitch, complain and criticize. The reason behind the apathy here is not the same as it was in Egypt, but the apathy is there just the same. Of course there are exceptions to the rule but that's how it is here in general terms.

I don't see that happening in Egypt again once they get things together. These people will be actively engage throughout the entire process. They will be proactive before they are reactive. They are true activist and they will stay involved and teach the ones behind them, to do the same.

From here on out they will be apart of the process as oppose to sitting back letting the process simply happen without letting their voices be heard.

[jobeterob]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TOP STORY


Soldiers are surrounded by protesters during a demonstration in Tahrir Square in Egypt in this undated photo.

Egyptian military leaders suspend constitution

13/02/2011 2:39:36 PM

CTV.ca News Staff
Egypt's military rulers dissolved parliament and suspended the constitution on Sunday, meeting two key demands from pro-democracy protesters as they maintained a presence in Cairo's Tahrir Square.


The military leadership that took power when President Hosni Mubarak stepped down on Friday said they will run the country for six months or until presidential and parliamentary elections can be held.








Protesters had been pressuring the ruling military to move forward with the transition process by appointing a presidential council, dissolving the parliament and releasing detainees.

Both the lower and upper houses of parliament were being dissolved; elections held in November and December had been heavily rigged by the ruling party and virtually shut out the opposition.

The military announced on Sunday that it was forming a committee to amend the constitution and establish rules for a referendum to endorse the amendments.

The announcement came as the military faced tense opposition as it moved to dismantle a protest camp in Tahrir Square on Sunday, where labour unrest continued days after Mubarak was forced from office.

A dwindling band of protesters struggled to hold on to the position they held throughout an 18-day pro-democracy demonstration that led to Mubarak's ouster.

Meantime, groups of textile and ceramic factory workers and bankers held protests in attempts to improve their position as the country goes through democratic reforms.

Members of Egypt's maligned police force also held demonstrations in from of the Interior Ministry, demanding better living conditions while seeking absolution for their role in opposing the weeks-long demonstration.

"All these orders were coming from senior leaders, this is not our fault," Said Abdul-Rahim, a low-ranking officer, told The Associated Press.

The ongoing protests come as the military struggles to keep the peace while paving the way for democratic reform and an eventual election.

Some protests refused to leave Tahrir Square, the epicentre of the popular uprising, fearful that the generals who had been entrusted to lead the transition would not fulfill their promises.

The main coalition of opposition groups announced it will end its protest in Tahrir Square, but will still hold weekly demonstrations after Friday prayers. Other protesters vowed to remain in the square indefinitely.

Learning how to rule will be a challenge for The Armed Forces Supreme Council, which was handed power following Mubarak's exile and promised to usher in a legitimate, democratically-elected government.

The army backed the people through the protests and was greeted with love after Mubarak's resignation. But analysts wonder how long the trust can last.

"The military has basically upheld its popularity, its affiliation with the public. But that was while President Mubarak was in the mix," Kamran Bokhari, regional director for Stratfor, a global intelligence agency, told CTV News Channel on Saturday.

"Now that he is going and all eyes are on the military we are probably going to see a shift. People are already very cynical and saying ‘let's see what is going to happen.'"

Sunday's tension followed a moving symbolic gesture on Saturday, when thousands began cleaning the rubble and garbage from Tahrir Square.

Nasser Abdel-Hamid, a protest organizer who has been camped on Tahrir Square since protests began on Jan. 25, said it was time to show faith in the military.

"We were chanting peacefully," he told The Associated Press. "They wanted to remove the tents but we still need guarantees. The army's latest statement was vague and didn't tell us exactly what they are going to do."

With files from The Associated Press

[ms_m]

Bobkayli, you may have seen this already since much of it was posted in the Guardian but this underscores how well organized and prepared the Egyptian protest were.


Egyptian Activists' Action Plan: Translated
Jan 27 2011, 7:40 PM ET By Alexis Madrigal Comment
Egyptian activists have been circulating a kind of primer to Friday's planned protest. We were sent the plan by two separate sources and have decided to publish excerpts here, with translations into English. Over Twitter, we connected with a translator, who translated the document with exceptional speed.

What follows are side-by-side translations of nine pages from the 26-page pamphlet. They were translated over the last hour and pasted up in Photoshop to give you an idea of what's in the protest plan. While the plan itself contains specifics about what protesters might do, these excerpts show how one might equip oneself for clashes with riot police. Egyptian security forces have repeatedly beaten protesters as the level of violent repression of demonstrations has ratcheted upwards. For more context on the pamphlet itself, the Guardian UK ran a summary of it earlier today.

As you'll read, the creators of the pamphlet explicitly asked that the pamphlet not be distributed on Twitter or Facebook, only through email or other contacts. We're publishing this piece of ephemera because we think it's a fascinating part of the historical record of what may end up becoming a very historic day for Egypt.


Full Article [[http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2011/01/egyptian-activists-action-plan-translated/70388/)

[jobeterob]

I wonder how long it will be before there is huge disappointment by the people. Today, I heard it would be six months before any election. I also heard a story that people did not understand that anyone could run for President; they did not understand the concept.

They've come a long way; I hope they have lots of support.

[ms_m]

I also heard a story that people did not understand that anyone could run for President; they did not understand the concept.

Don't know where you heard that but it's not true. The protesters are probably more aware of democracy and it's concept than many people here in the US, or any other "free" country. Many of the young are extremely educated. Egypt is not some backwards country Jobetrobe.

Why would you think they would be disappointed? Jumping into an election now doesn't make any sense and they know this. Not to mention there are still things they want to see done before an election is held.

People in the West really need to get a grip about other countries and cultures. We are the ones without a clue.

[ms_m]

Doug:

The cuts hit far and wide: airports, heat subsidies for the poor, water treatment plants and Pell grants are just some of the targets. In total, half of all government agencies would see their funding reduced from 2010 levels.



Obama's spending plan: Where the cuts are

NEW YORK [[CNNMoney) -- President Obama's budget for 2012 takes a sharp knife to government spending, with proposed cuts that will reduce deficits by hundreds of billions of dollars over 10 years.
The bulk of the cuts are needed to support Obama's proposed five-year freeze on non-security discretionary spending, for $400 billion in savings. It's a small part of the federal budget, but one that is responsible for many popular government activities.

Full Article [[http://money.cnn.com/2011/02/14/news/economy/obama_budget_spending_cuts/index.htm?iid=HLM)

[soulster]

I give it a month before the radical Islamists start making inroads. But, it's just a wait-and-see thing.

It's the futures traders that are driving up the cost of oil.

[ms_m]

No, Muslims are not taking over the world
The global Muslim population is projected to grow at a slower pace than it did during the previous two decades
• John Esposito and Sheila Lalwani
• guardian.co.uk, Friday 11 February 2011 15.21 GMT


A recent study from the Pew Research Centre on religion and public life demonstrates that neither the UK nor Europe are in danger of a Muslim takeover, whatever the American right may believe. The Future of the Global Muslim Population: Projections for 2010-2030 is a major and comprehensive study that focuses on the Muslim populations in North America, Europe, Africa and the Asia-Pacific and provides a revealing look into the future of the Muslim population worldwide and the future makeup of the world.

According to the report, the global Muslim population is expected to increase by about 35% over the next two decades, rising from a population of 1.6 billion in 2010 to 2.2 billion in 2030. The study says that the global Muslim population is expected to grow at a faster rate than the non-Muslim population, but that the Muslim population is projected to grow at a slower pace than it did during the previous two decades.

The study makes several projections for the UK. According to the study, more than a quarter of all new immigrants to the UK in 2010 are estimated to be Muslim. These groups largely migrate from former colonial states, specifically Pakistan, Bangladesh and India. According to the study, the UK had a net inflow of roughly 64,000 Muslim immigrants in the past year and will continue to serve as a destination for Muslims. In fact, the study says that the UK is expected to have the largest increase in the number of Muslims in Europe in the next 20 years. The number of Muslims in the UK is projected to almost double from 2.9 million in 2010 to 5.6 million in 2030. By 2030, Muslims are expected to make up 8.2% of the UK's population, up from 4.6% in 2010.

Full Article for More Facts [[http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2011/feb/11/islam-population)

[ms_m]

Current Developments Regarding Egypt's Upcoming Elections
2/15


The Muslim Brotherhood announces it will seek political party status but will not present a candidate for president. The Brotherhood "envisions the establishment of a democratic, civil state that draws on universal measures of freedom and justice, with central Islamic values serving all Egyptians regardless of color, creed, political trend or religion," it said in the statement.

CNN Video [[http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/meast/02/15/egypt.muslim.brotherhood/)

[ms_m]

This is out of control. The protesters are not armed. There are women, men and children in the crowd. The protesters have been peaceful from the start.

The people of Bahrain are being attacked again today and are begging for help on twitter. Please take a minute and call your president, the state department, and your Congressional representatives and tell them the U.S must take a moral stand and condemn the government of Bahrain. If you can get through, call the Bahrain embassy in DC. Tell them that the world knows what is happening that we can read the tweets of the Bahrainis who have been shot at and those of Nick Kristof who is a witness to it in the ER at the Bahraini hospital. Don't wait call NOW please!

Tweets and contact info follow below.
BahrainRights Bahrain Human Rights
by Sandmonkey
Ambulances are being blocked from approaching pearl in #Bahrain by security forces...army open live fire...
49 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply
»
NohaAtef Noha Atef
by monasosh
In #Bahrain: snipers!!... and a doctor shot dead while transferring injuries [[via CNN)
28 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply
»
yabuyaishbak Yabuya Ishbak
by monaeltahawy
@monaeltahawy please, for the love of humanity, go out on TV and condemn these bastards for killing their own people in cold blood like this
11 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply
»
emoodz Mohammed AlMaskati
by monaeltahawy
HELP US.. HELP US.. THEY DID IT AGAIN #BAHRAIN
17 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply
»
JustAmira Amira Al Hussaini
by monaeltahawy
For those following and confused: The Crown Prince of #Bahrain is calling for calm while tweeps reporting more carnage in #Bahrain #Feb14
18 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply
»
Elazul
Elazul Elazul
by monaeltahawy
Can anyone explain to me HOW anyone in the world can justify Shooting peaceful protesters? At a FUNERAL MARCH YOU BASTARDS?! #Baharin
18 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply
»
Chan'ad Bahraini
muiz muiz
by monaeltahawy
It is a WAR ZONE here, we are not equipped to deal with this - they are massacring people for protesting in streets! | Dr GHASSAN | #Bahrain
28 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply
»
chanadbh Chan'ad Bahraini
by monaeltahawy
On AJE @reemkhalifa17 : How it started - Some boys went to army at Lulu to ask where the dead bodies are of yesterday's attack #Bahrain
18 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply
»
majda72 majda72
by monaeltahawy
#Benghazi and #Bahrain are crying out to the international community for help, peaceful demonstrators are being slaughtered. #Libya #lulu
27 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply
»
NickKristof Nicholas Kristof
Seems to be mostly rubber bullets. But terrible, gaping wounds, maybe meaning close range.
31 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply
»
Nicholas Kristof
NickKristof Nicholas Kristof
Man in blood drenched shirt just walked in. Drs outraged, helping me get stories and video. #Bahrain
33 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply
»
Nicholas Kristof
NickKristof Nicholas Kristof
ABt 20 patients so far, 1 nr death. Ambulances say many many more casualties but they are denied access.
37 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply
»
Nicholas Kristof
NickKristof Nicholas Kristof
Worst injuries from those at Deh marching toward Pearl. Many head wounds. Unsure if live fire or rubber bullets.
Contact Information for the Bahrain DC embassy and NYC consulate
Contact the Bahrain embassy and consulate and let them know the world is watching and condemning the Bahraini government for it's ruthless violence and repression.
I was told by the Bahraini embassy press office yesterday to send an email that will be seen by the Bahraini government. Send one today after you call: information@BahrainEmbassy.org

Embassy of the Kingdom of Bahrain
3502 International Drive NW
Washington, DC 20008
Phone: 202 342 1111, Fax: 202 362 2192

Bahraini Ambassador to the U.S.
Ms. Houda Ezra Ebrahim Nonoo

Contact Info for the White House, State Department, and Congress

Contact your elected representatives and ask them to publicly demand that Bahrain immediately halt all violence against the protesters and respect the freedoms of all Bahrainis.

The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue NW
Washington, DC 20500
Phone Numbers
Comments: 202-456-1111
Switchboard: 202-456-1414
FAX: 202-456-2461

Webform for email: www.whitehouse.gov/contact


Congress
Senators: You can find contact information for your senators here
http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm.cfm?State=
Representatives: You can look up your representatives here
http://www.congress.org/congressorg/directory/congdir.tt
Or simply call the Capitol Switchboard at [[202) 224-3121.
US State Department
Contact the State Department and urge that Hillary Clinton publicly demand that the government of Bahrain immediately halt all violence against the protesters and respect the freedoms of all Bahrainis.
Secretary Hillary Clinton 202-647-5291
Deputy Secretary of State James Steinberg 202-647-8636
Special Assistant to the Secretary and the Executive Secretary of the Department Stephen D. Mull 202-647-5301
Bureau of Near Eastern Affairs [[NEA)
Assistant Secretary Jeffrey D. Feltman 202-647-7209
Office of Arabian Peninsula Affairs [[NEA/ARP)
Director Andrew Steinfeld 202-647-6184
Deputy Director Eric Gaudiosi 202-647-6563
Bureau of Public Affairs [[PA)
Assistant Secretary for Public Affairs
Philip J. Crowley 202-647-6607
Office of Near East and South Central Affairs [[DRL/NESCA)
Director Kari Johnstone, Acting 202-647-0407
Deputy Director Kari Johnstone 202-647-1473
OMS Esther Zaiback 202-647-4308
Bureau of International Organization Affairs [[IO)
Office of Human Rights, Humanitarian, and Social Affairs [[IO/RHS)
Director Atul Keshap 202-736-7791
Deputy Director Cari Enav 202-647-5070
Office of the Under Secretary for Democracy and Global Affairs and Coordinator
Under Secretary Maria Otero 202-647-1189


AJE – L IVE on Bahrain [[http://english.aljazeera.net/watch_now/)

[ms_m]

Op-Ed

Witnessing is Powerful
by UnaSpenser


At some point in the Egyptian revolution, representatives of the demonstrators made it very clear that self-determination is what they sought. They didn't want outsiders influencing their process. They wanted to own it for themselves. All they wanted from us was to keep the cameras rolling and tell their story. One person clearly and bluntly expressed fear that the cameras would go away and we would stop watching and that then the government would feel free to kill them.

Witnessing is powerful.

Today, I've heard two different voice from Libya echoing those sentiments. In one voice recording, a Libyan begs us to bring cameras. Another in an interview with Anderson Cooper this evening says, please tell our story. The government there has locked out the media. Still they go to the streets. Over 40 people died today. When Anderson says what can we do, he says, "tell our story. let people know." Anderson assures him that his voice will be heard tonight and he expresses heartfelt thanks.

Witnessing is powerful.

There is a reason that witness testimony is such a key factor to the dispensing of justice and that perpetrators of crimes try to silence witnesses. There is a reason that oppressive regimes block the media from covering what they do. Think about how different it is to stand up to an offender when you are alone than it is when you have even one other person who witnessed the offensive event. Remember those moments of saying, "Thank goodness it's not just me. Someone else sees it, too."

Witnessing is powerful.

Witnessing is not a passive act. It is hard. One must work to maintain a larger view and hold onto to higher principles whilst witnessing what happens to individuals. One must process all the pain and terror and find a way to maintain a center and continue to bear witness without falling apart and abandoning those you are offering the service to. One must be open to seeing things one doesn't want to see even when it doesn't support a preconceived notion or those you are witnessing for act contrary to the ideals you had hoped you shared. One must transform all of this into truth-telling regardless of how painful it is or any external pressures to be silent or misrepresent that truth. One must become comfortable with being uncomfortable and agitated. One must hold onto the value of the service throughout all of this. If it were easy, it wouldn't be meaningful.

Witnessing is powerful.

Do what you are called to do. Who knows what will lead where. Whatever that is, please honor the wishes of those putting their lives on the line and remember to continue to bear witness.

Witnessing is powerful.