Mary's Going to see Diana's Vegas Show?

[jobeterob]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GsI9lu6sUa4&feature=share

[Guy]

Ugh. What was the point of announcing her intentions? Girl, just do it and tell us about it afterwards.

[jobeterob]

She's trying though

[Circa 1824]

does that Wilson gal forget the 20+ years of nonstop Diana bashing and devaluing Diana ??

Diana will never trust her again. Nor would I.

[daviddh]

drama. should have done this in 2000.geez
day late n a dollar short

[honest man]

She;s name dropping Diana ross name again...............it's how she makes a living,the woman has no shame just saying'

[jobucats]

Here we go again for another round of the "Housewives of the Motown Forum." I have tub of popcorn ready.

[blackguy69]

Here we go again for another round of the "Housewives of the Motown Forum." I have tub of popcorn ready.
And don't forget the butter lol.

[honest man]

here we go again for another round of the "housewives of the motown forum." i have tub of popcorn ready.stating facts,no drama here,enjoy your popcorn,

[jobeterob]

Leaving a lot aside, I can feel what Mary says; she's aging and trying to be human

[honest man]

Leaving a lot aside, I can feel what Mary says; she's aging and trying to be human

Creeping is what we call it in UK. MW sold that girl right down the pan.and should never be let back in DR Life, Sorry Hope DR gets a security ban on her.DR HAS given her so many chances and MW Has let DR Down big time she is no friend,sorry but it's the truth.keep an eye DR .cheers.

[thanxal]

People on this forum should be as generous as Mary is in this interview. She said she was apologizing for any offenses. Please follow Mary's lead [[and that applies to both the Mary and Diana partisans). I'm too old for this sheet.

[blackguy69]

People on this forum should be as generous as Mary is in this interview. She said she was apologizing for any offenses. Please follow Mary's lead [[and that applies to both the Mary and Diana partisans). I'm too old for this sheet.
Loved what you said. Some of those who posted above are never going to let it go. They need to be reminded that it takes two to tangle so this isn't one sided

[RanRan79]

Mary is a very smart woman, but like any intelligent person she is occasionally subject to a dumb ass moment. And this, ladies and gentlemen, is a dumb ass moment. I hate that she announced this. And for the record I believe she is very sincere on why she'll try to see Diana. It's that sincerity that caused her the lapse in judgement to announce to the world what she planned to do. She got caught up in the moment. Now that she has said this, it gives the devil and his imps the chance to intervene. Not that I believe any of the usual suspects in this forum have an open line to Diana Ross, but if the attitudes that presented itself in this thread [[and others) are any indication of desire, certain people would love to jump at the chance to get in Diana's ear and say "Mary said she's going to try to come. Don't see her! She's just coming to start some mess!". And while Diana is also a very intelligent woman, like any intelligent person, she is prone to lapses in wisdom and could certainly fall prey to anyone in her camp who would rather die than to see these two women lay their issues to rest.

Yes, this should have been done in 1999/2000 [[even earlier). But having witnessed first hand what it's like for a death to be the end of any possible reconciliation between two or more people, that's not something I wish on anyone, not even my worst enemy. It would not surprise me if both Diana and Mary managed to live well past 80, even 90 [[they both look so good and seem to take good care of themselves) so I'm hoping they have many more years on earth [[and continuing to share their gift with us), but tomorrow isn't promised to anyone, so hopefully Mary does get to see Diana and the two of them- and only the two of them- can get together, lay it out, air it out and then throw it out, and they can move forward. As my grandmother would say, make the devil mad. Cuz a bunch of y'all would be PISSED if these two women made up. PISSED. How pathetic is that?

[blackguy69]

Mary is a very smart woman, but like any intelligent person she is occasionally subject to a dumb ass moment. And this, ladies and gentlemen, is a dumb ass moment. I hate that she announced this. And for the record I believe she is very sincere on why she'll try to see Diana. It's that sincerity that caused her the lapse in judgement to announce to the world what she planned to do. She got caught up in the moment. Now that she has said this, it gives the devil and his imps the chance to intervene. Not that I believe any of the usual suspects in this forum have an open line to Diana Ross, but if the attitudes that presented itself in this thread [[and others) are any indication of desire, certain people would love to jump at the chance to get in Diana's ear and say "Mary said she's going to try to come. Don't see her! She's just coming to start some mess!". And while Diana is also a very intelligent woman, like any intelligent person, she is prone to lapses in wisdom and could certainly fall prey to anyone in her camp who would rather die than to see these two women lay their issues to rest.

Yes, this should have been done in 1999/2000 [[even earlier). But having witnessed first hand what it's like for a death to be the end of any possible reconciliation between two or more people, that's not something I wish on anyone, not even my worst enemy. It would not surprise me if both Diana and Mary managed to live well past 80, even 90 [[they both look so good and seem to take good care of themselves) so I'm hoping they have many more years on earth [[and continuing to share their gift with us), but tomorrow isn't promised to anyone, so hopefully Mary does get to see Diana and the two of them- and only the two of them- can get together, lay it out, air it out and then throw it out, and they can move forward. As my grandmother would say, make the devil made. Cuz a bunch of y'all would be PISSED if these two women made up. PISSED. How pathetic is that?
Both have made mistakes in their shared past and it seems like Mary is trying to make amends. Is it too little too late, hard to say. But since they have some communication in the last 10 years, at least the lines are open. Ran I believe you when you said folks would loose their minds if they made up. If that happens, what would they talk about?

[thanxal]

Mary is a very smart woman, but like any intelligent person she is occasionally subject to a dumb ass moment. And this, ladies and gentlemen, is a dumb ass moment. I hate that she announced this. And for the record I believe she is very sincere on why she'll try to see Diana. It's that sincerity that caused her the lapse in judgement to announce to the world what she planned to do. She got caught up in the moment. Now that she has said this, it gives the devil and his imps the chance to intervene. Not that I believe any of the usual suspects in this forum have an open line to Diana Ross, but if the attitudes that presented itself in this thread [[and others) are any indication of desire, certain people would love to jump at the chance to get in Diana's ear and say "Mary said she's going to try to come. Don't see her! She's just coming to start some mess!". And while Diana is also a very intelligent woman, like any intelligent person, she is prone to lapses in wisdom and could certainly fall prey to anyone in her camp who would rather die than to see these two women lay their issues to rest.

Yes, this should have been done in 1999/2000 [[even earlier). But having witnessed first hand what it's like for a death to be the end of any possible reconciliation between two or more people, that's not something I wish on anyone, not even my worst enemy. It would not surprise me if both Diana and Mary managed to live well past 80, even 90 [[they both look so good and seem to take good care of themselves) so I'm hoping they have many more years on earth [[and continuing to share their gift with us), but tomorrow isn't promised to anyone, so hopefully Mary does get to see Diana and the two of them- and only the two of them- can get together, lay it out, air it out and then throw it out, and they can move forward. As my grandmother would say, make the devil made. Cuz a bunch of y'all would be PISSED if these two women made up. PISSED. How pathetic is that?
RanRan, to me this means she is trying. She certainly doesn't harbor the animosity that the two sides on this forum do. Let's just assume everything that transpired was all Mary's fault, which it wasn't, but let's assume that. She is trying to reach out here. Shouldn't Diana be magnanimous? Letting bygones-be-bygones is what should happen at later stages of life, especially when there are still so many people who love each lady as much as they do. That won't last forever. Time is washing away memories.

If Mary actually goes to the venue, should she be rebuffed? Was she not a real part of Diana's success? Even if one takes Diana's side 100%, no one can deny that without Mary and Florence she may not have gotten the stardom she did. Both sides can try to rewrite history, but it is what it was. What is accomplished by holding on to old grievances? You just end up a bitter old bast*rd. Like the current person who occupies the office of President of the United States. Who wants to end up like that?

[RanRan79]

Both have made mistakes in their shared past and it seems like Mary is trying to make amends. Is it too little too late, hard to say. But since they have some communication in the last 10 years, at least the lines are open. Ran I believe you when you said folks would loose their minds if they made up. If that happens, what would they talk about?

Both have made mistakes, exactly. They are both human, no more, no less. As long as Diana is receptive to Mary's overtures, I don't think it's too late. But you better believe some of the names in this thread that are so anti Mary, along with some other names in other threads that are so anti Diana, if the two women made up, and especially if they forged a new relationship, we actually might not see some screen names post anymore as they may commit suicide. But lets say they don't kill themselves, you ask what would they talk about? The same shit they've been talking about. Do you really think these kinds of people would let the principle players reconcile and it would mean these non principle players would suddenly play nice or refuse to bring up the past? LOL They get their lives on hate. Diana and Mary loving each other won't stop that.

[blackguy69]

Both have made mistakes, exactly. They are both human, no more, no less. As long as Diana is receptive to Mary's overtures, I don't think it's too late. But you better believe some of the names in this thread that are so anti Mary, along with some other names in other threads that are so anti Diana, if the two women made up, and especially if they forged a new relationship, we actually might not see some screen names post anymore as they may commit suicide. But lets say they don't kill themselves, you ask what would they talk about? The same shit they've been talking about. Do you really think these kinds of people would let the principle players reconcile and it would mean these non principle players would suddenly play nice or refuse to bring up the past? LOL They get their lives on hate. Diana and Mary loving each other won't stop that.
They would refocus and start the Martha vs Betty feud or the Otis vs David feud

[thanxal]

Both have made mistakes, exactly. They are both human, no more, no less. As long as Diana is receptive to Mary's overtures, I don't think it's too late. But you better believe some of the names in this thread that are so anti Mary, along with some other names in other threads that are so anti Diana, if the two women made up, and especially if they forged a new relationship, we actually might not see some screen names post anymore as they may commit suicide. But lets say they don't kill themselves, you ask what would they talk about? The same shit they've been talking about. Do you really think these kinds of people would let the principle players reconcile and it would mean these non principle players would suddenly play nice or refuse to bring up the past? LOL They get their lives on hate. Diana and Mary loving each other won't stop that.
Ranran, the people on this forum [[edit: myself included) are really unimportant compared to Mary and Diana [[and Flo and Cindy and Jean and Lynda and Sherrie and Susaye). Just sayin'.

[luke]

Any healing that goes on between two people helps heal the world. Let’s wish them well!

[thanxal]

That's a really nice thought, Luke. Let's hope it spreads!

[luke]

Thanks thanxal and good for you for your positive thoughts!

[TomatoTom123]

Thread highlights:

jobucats referring to thread as another episode of “The Housewives Of The Motown Forum”

RanRan making such an intelligent and wide-ranging post that he manages to discuss the life expectancies for Diana and Mary

RanRan suggesting that both anti-Diana and anti-Mary posters would kill themselves should the two ladies actually make up

blackguy reminding us all of the various other pointless and ridiculous arguments over former Motown artists available for us to start through the medium of internet forum

thanxal saying sheet

RanRan quoting his grandmother

luke promoting himself to leader of the World Peace Council

Lol, I don’t know why I just did that, I guess I felt like it :D

[thanxal]

Thread highlights:

jobucats referring to thread as another episode of “The Housewives Of The Motown Forum”

RanRan making such an intelligent and wide-ranging post that he manages to discuss the life expectancies for Diana and Mary

RanRan suggesting that both anti-Diana and anti-Mary posters would kill themselves should the two ladies actually make up

blackguy reminding us all of the various other pointless and ridiculous arguments over former Motown artists available for us to start through the medium of internet forum

thanxal saying sheet

RanRan quoting his grandmother

luke promoting himself to leader of the World Peace Council

Lol, I don’t know why I just did that, I guess I felt like it :D

Tom,
Both Luke and I had very nice positive exchanges. Please don't overlook overtures.

[RanRan79]

They would refocus and start the Martha vs Betty feud or the Otis vs David feud

This is true. Lol

[RanRan79]

Ranran, the people on this forum [[edit: myself included) are really unimportant compared to Mary and Diana [[and Flo and Cindy and Jean and Lynda and Sherrie and Susaye). Just sayin'.

Thanxal I responded to the post you made in response to mine earlier, but for some reason the post seems to have disappeared. I wonder what happened?

[RanRan79]

Thread highlights:

jobucats referring to thread as another episode of “The Housewives Of The Motown Forum”

RanRan making such an intelligent and wide-ranging post that he manages to discuss the life expectancies for Diana and Mary

RanRan suggesting that both anti-Diana and anti-Mary posters would kill themselves should the two ladies actually make up

blackguy reminding us all of the various other pointless and ridiculous arguments over former Motown artists available for us to start through the medium of internet forum

thanxal saying sheet

RanRan quoting his grandmother

luke promoting himself to leader of the World Peace Council

Lol, I don’t know why I just did that, I guess I felt like it :D

Tom you're good at inserting humor in the middle of the craziness that goes on around here. In the words of Martha and the Vandellas, "Keep it up".:cool:

[jobeterob]

The only dates left this time around are October 25 27 28

[thanxal]

Thanxal I responded to the post you made in response to mine earlier, but for some reason the post seems to have disappeared. I wonder what happened?
Please repost as I have always found you to be a comrade.

[luke]

And Tomato tom being the Henny Youngman of SD!

[TomatoTom123]

Tom,
Both Luke and I had very nice positive exchanges. Please don't overlook overtures.

Of course thanxal, you are vice World Peace Council leader ;)

[TomatoTom123]

Tom you're good at inserting humor in the middle of the craziness that goes on around here. In the words of Martha and the Vandellas, "Keep it up".:cool:

Thank you RanRan, I shall :p

[TomatoTom123]

And Tomato tom being the Henny Youngman of SD!

Lol, I had no idea who that was but just looked him up, and I’m gonna take it as a compliment, so thank you luke :)

[Roberta75]

does that Wilson gal forget the 20+ years of nonstop Diana bashing and devaluing Diana ??

Diana will never trust her again. Nor would I.

I hope this meeting happens backstage and im hoping for healing between these two ladies. There both getting older 74 next year so its time to put everything behind them and make peace imo.

[thanxal]

Of course thanxal, you are vice World Peace Council leader ;)
Lol! Anything that gets us back to the music...

[thanxal]

I hope this meeting happens backstage and im hoping for healing between these two ladies. There both getting older 74 next year so its time to put everything behind them and make peace imo.
As usual, you are correct, Roberta.

[RanRan79]

Please repost as I have always found you to be a comrade.

Thanxal I would repost but can't remember everything I said. The one thing I do recall was that I have to cut Mary some slack with her announcement. My original issue was that she made the announcement to "us" before Diana. In other words we knew she was attempting to reconcile with Ross before Diana knew. But BG made a good point about the lines of communication being open between the two of them within the last ten years, so whose to say that Mary hasn't spoken to Diana or text her or whatever to let her know that she would try to make it and they should talk? Contrary to popular belief around here, we don't know everything that goes on between these two women, nor should we know everything. I don't know if Mary contacted Diana or not, I'm just saying my original post was made with only one scenario in mind and I have to remember that I'm only guessing and have no knowledge of the situation beyond Mary's words in the video.

As for you Thanxal, you, BG and a few others are the voices of reason around here. Your observations are objective and that should allow for good discussions, even when it's not just the music. If only everyone's input were as fair when it comes to this group of women.

[RanRan79]

I hope this meeting happens backstage and im hoping for healing between these two ladies. There both getting older 74 next year so its time to put everything behind them and make peace imo.

I hope it happens in a hotel room, personally. I suspect there's a lot both women need to say to one another in order to right this ship, and backstage aint the place to do it. But I echo your sentiment.

[TheMotownManiac]

I just saw this thread and am proud and amazed at how civil and on-point it is.......a beautiful thing in itself! For me, all i’m Going to say is that IF both parties involved are seeking ‘healing’ then i’m All for anything that brings more peace and love to individuals and thusly, the world. I’m one of the members who has no contact with Diana, but I doubt very much that IF she was warned it would have any difference in her actions. Ross doesn’t need input from anyone about her feelings about anyone in her personal life, I would suspect. If she was uneasy about her feelings with Mary, I think she’s the type to do something about it - she must be aware how a Mary feels after countless interviews. For that reason, if Mary goes to her show, I predict Diana will do a repeat of Motown The Musical - which I witnessed personally, remember - where Diana was gracious, smiling and got the hell outta there - staying at the after party a full five minutes. Mary has not heard from her since. I think Diana crossed Mary off thirty years ago and and has moved on - way, way on. They both played Vegas the same weekend earlier this year and not a peep from Ross. Mary knows Ross better than most and is well aware her only guarantee is a forced public meeting, but I don’t think Diana will bite.
Im also not sure why Mary is seeking this so fervently as I have never, ever heard her utter one positive thing about Diana the person. She’s not necessarily negative either, mind you, but lots of rolled eyes and no stories about their good old days as friends, no references at all. I’m sure there are others here who know Mary that would concur. Cindy has said point blank that Diana and Mary were not close when she joined the group - that Diana spent some time with them, but often was alone or with Berry or others. I’ve been in touch with Mary since the 70s and I would bet my pension they have not had contact more than a dozen times since January 14, 1970. What exactly is she seeking?

[jobeterob]

I just saw this thread and am proud and amazed at how civil and on-point it is.......a beautiful thing in itself! For me, all i’m Going to say is that IF both parties involved are seeking ‘healing’ then i’m All for anything that brings more peace and love to individuals and thusly, the world. I’m one of the members who has no contact with Diana, but I doubt very much that IF she was warned it would have any difference in her actions. Ross doesn’t need input from anyone about her feelings about anyone in her personal life, I would suspect. If she was uneasy about her feelings with Mary, I think she’s the type to do something about it - she must be aware how a Mary feels after countless interviews. For that reason, if Mary goes to her show, I predict Diana will do a repeat of Motown The Musical - which I witnessed personally, remember - where Diana was gracious, smiling and got the hell outta there - staying at the after party a full five minutes. Mary has not heard from her since. I think Diana crossed Mary off thirty years ago and and has moved on - way, way on. They both played Vegas the same weekend earlier this year and not a peep from Ross. Mary knows Ross better than most and is well aware her only guarantee is a forced public meeting, but I don’t think Diana will bite.
Im also not sure why Mary is seeking this so fervently as I have never, ever heard her utter one positive thing about Diana the person. She’s not necessarily negative either, mind you, but lots of rolled eyes and no stories about their good old days as friends, no references at all. I’m sure there are others here who know Mary that would concur. Cindy has said point blank that Diana and Mary were not close when she joined the group - that Diana spent some time with them, but often was alone or with Berry or others. I’ve been in touch with Mary since the 70s and I would bet my pension they have not had contact more than a dozen times since January 14, 1970. What exactly is she seeking?

Probably just to feel better.

They've got families and grandchildren - they've moved way on and this isn't that important to them.

[honest man]

I really would love Diana to get MW a no Access permit to her show,she brings trouble to DR every situation she attends,does n't the crafty fool not realize DR Has washed her hands off her,the Motown Musical appearance was cringing,MW Has no shame she S--T on DR from a great height,she is back in public demand and scheming Wilson will screw her again,DR KEEP HER OUT.

[blackguy69]

Here is a question I wasn't going to ask but here it goes, since some on here want to blame Mary for all that has happened, how much of the blame falls on Diana. Like I mentioned before, it takes 2 to tango

[jobeterob]

Here is a question I wasn't going to ask but here it goes, since some on here want to blame Mary for all that has happened, how much of the blame falls on Diana. Like I mentioned before, it takes 2 to tango

Probably doesn't matter much. It's all opinion.

But if she is showing up at the show, I think only Wednesday, Friday and Saturday this week are left and then it's over for a til next year.

[Circa 1824]

If they do meet, I hope Ross tells that Wilson gal to “Stop singing my lead vocal part.”

[Bluebrock]

Let us wait and see what happens but it will take more than one meeting to heal the hurt. Diana and Mary are not close and were work colleagues for only 8 years or so, and that was almost 48 years ago. In any other industry they would have long since forgotten about each other. Any meeting should be done in private, and should not have been publicly mentioned beforehand. If such a meeting was ever to take place then the time to mention it should have been after the event, if at all. It has already got off to a bad start.

[jobeterob]

Let us wait and see what happens but it will take more than one meeting to heal the hurt. Diana and Mary are not close and were work colleagues for only 8 years or so, and that was almost 48 years ago. In any other industry they would have long since forgotten about each other. Any meeting should be done in private, and should not have been publicly mentioned beforehand. If such a meeting was ever to take place then the time to mention it should have been after the event, if at all. It has already got off to a bad start.

This makes sense even if it is unfortunate. A lot more is made of this by the old time fans than it really is. There are only 5 days left to see if anything happens - there is no prohibition against her buying a ticket and going.

[floyjoy678]

I will say it is a little ridiculous how everyone is making a big deal outta this. I do think it's time Diana has moved on though. Martha wrote about Diana in her book as well. She also wrote about how Rosalind pretty much influenced her into popping pills but that didn't stop the two of them from performing together. Ronnie Spector and Ronette cousin, Nedra Talley weren't exactly on the best terms with each other but they performed together in recent years.

I always wonder if Flo was alive if these childish games Mary and Diana play with each other would have went on. I believe she would have put her foot down.

[sophisticated_soul]

Let us wait and see what happens but it will take more than one meeting to heal the hurt. Diana and Mary are not close and were work colleagues for only 8 years or so, and that was almost 48 years ago. In any other industry they would have long since forgotten about each other. Any meeting should be done in private, and should not have been publicly mentioned beforehand. If such a meeting was ever to take place then the time to mention it should have been after the event, if at all. It has already got off to a bad start.

Exactly !

[RanRan79]

I will say it is a little ridiculous how everyone is making a big deal outta this. I do think it's time Diana has moved on though. Martha wrote about Diana in her book as well. She also wrote about how Rosalind pretty much influenced her into popping pills but that didn't stop the two of them from performing together. Ronnie Spector and Ronette cousin, Nedra Talley weren't exactly on the best terms with each other but they performed together in recent years.

I always wonder if Flo was alive if these childish games Mary and Diana play with each other would have went on. I believe she would have put her foot down.

Celebrities are people too, and thus I can not ask a celebrity to do or be anything that I can't see myself doing. A group of people I am related to crossed several lines in the last couple of years in the wake of two deaths. These were people I've known my entire life, some of whom were at the hospital the day I was born. And yet there will be no breaking of bread between us, no conversations, no contact [[beyond a beat down or a bullet) if I can help it. There is nothing wrong with cutting people out of your life that you deem don't belong there. Everyone has to do what they need to do for their happiness and their mental health.

From the outside looking in I always understood Diana's desire to stay the hell away from Mary. I would have done the same thing. But also from the outside looking in, I've always thought that if the two women communicated effectively [[especially from the very beginning, during the Supremes years) a lot of the bitterness and obstacles to the musical reunion could've been avoided. I always wish for people who can to reconcile. Reconciliation is a blessing. But at the same time if Diana does feel that opening the door to Mary might be more trouble than it's worth, well I get it. Again, everybody should do what they need to do for their own comfort, not anyone else. But as a fan I'm hoping that they can move past this and that it becomes something they both ultimately cherish.

[RanRan79]

I always wonder if Flo was alive if these childish games Mary and Diana play with each other would have went on. I believe she would have put her foot down.

If Flo were alive there would have been no Dreamgirl book. If Flo were alive, there would have been no Motown 25 shenanigans on either Diana or Mary's part. I think Flo did a lot of growing up when she started climbing up after hitting rock bottom. I just can't see her tolerating the nonsense. Remember, after everything that had gone down between her and Diana in the 60s, and then naming Diana in the lawsuit in the 70s [[maliciously kicking her out of the group, the suit said), it was Florence who called Diana up and gave the two of them their final moment before Flo's death. She was already operating on a more mature level than her singing partners at that point, and I think if she had lived, her influence would have been greater. [[I also think if she had lived, the original Supremes would have reunited for more music eventually.)

[blackguy69]

Its hard to say what is going on in their minds let alone what will happen. If anything [[at least on Diana's side) it can mean closure and end it from there. But a good heart to heart talk could open up the hopes of cordial relations. I will say that if they never had any communication after the RTL mess then I would say it's a lost cause. But since they have, there is a glimmer of hope. No one here knows for sure what will happen. I will not try to read someone's body language as an indicator since it could mean a variety of other thoughts. We just have to sit back and let it happen.

[RanRan79]

Fingers crossed. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't hoping to see a musical reunion at some point. After all, these two ladies have given me some of the best music I've ever heard. What if Diana reunites with Mary for the performance at the AMAs? I know, I know. A guy can dream, can't he?

[PeaceNHarmony]

Well she certainly has every right to, but really, who cares? How often does anyone get together with a work colleague from 50 years ago that they were never really friendly with? [[An aside: the 'ignore' feature on this forum is brilliant)

[Circa 1824]

[QUOTE=PeaceNHarmony;421136]Well she certainly has every right to, but really, who cares? How often does anyone get together with a work colleague from 50 years ago that they were never really friendly with?

Diana does not live in the past as many here do. Her focus is today - her family and what is left of her career.

[Bluebrock]

[QUOTE=PeaceNHarmony;421136]Well she certainly has every right to, but really, who cares? How often does anyone get together with a work colleague from 50 years ago that they were never really friendly with?

Diana does not live in the past as many here do. Her focus is today - her family and what is left of her career.
She is all about her family these days. She schedules her concerts around her family life even more so than she did back in the 90's. She is no longer interested in overseas tours, but will keep playing domestically until she ceases to enjoy it. She tends to leave the past where it belongs - in the past. I am not entirely sure why Mary has publicly declared her intention to make contact with Diana. As i said previously this should be a private matter which again makes me question her motives and reasons.Only Mary can answer that question with total clarity.

[TheMotownManiac]

I will say it is a little ridiculous how everyone is making a big deal outta this. I do think it's time Diana has moved on though. Martha wrote about Diana in her book as well. She also wrote about how Rosalind pretty much influenced her into popping pills but that didn't stop the two of them from performing together. Ronnie Spector and Ronette cousin, Nedra Talley weren't exactly on the best terms with each other but they performed together in recent years.

I always wonder if Flo was alive if these childish games Mary and Diana play with each other would have went on. I believe she would have put her foot down.

what childish games are “they” playing exactly? Diana has contacted Mary exactly four times in three decades: twice to express sorrow/offer help and twice to discuss RTL. That’s it. She doesn’t talk about Mary in interviews, use her for publicity, or even refer to her publicly except as a past professional colleague reference. She didn’t even call her directly when Mary was ill, but did care enough to inquire about her health and if she was in any need. Diana has shown no interest in Mary as a friend and Mary knows it and knows exactly why. Mary exacerbates the situation by going public and makes it worse by saying she’ll apologize for ”whatever it is” - like she hasn’t a clue. Mary has been telling the press for years that’s she’s ready to reunite and not heard a peep from Ross. She’s going to force the issue if she shows up in Vegas and once again, be disappointed - at least publicly. No one I know has ever, not one time, heard Mary refer to Diana as her best friend, friend or someone who she longs to rekindle the good old times with. Many folks here know one or more ex Supreme - ask them how Mary spoke of Ross.

Mary is a sweet, kind, very fun woman who is very accessible to her fans and is a blast to hang with. She loves to party and socialize and whoop it up. She’d slowing down these days - finally - but she had quite a ride and still has a lot of good times - more than most her age I suspect. I know a lot about her, but I cannot figure her angle on this......if she really IS longing for her buddy who she dug at age 13, it’s kind of sad.....but I do not believe that is it. Interesting topic though.

[PeaceNHarmony]

... and the unfortunate fact is that Wilson acted out of turn at M25, used that event as a platform to publish the back-handed remarks about Diana in 'Dreamgirl', then wreaked havoc on our last chance to see a true Supremes reunion [[and, unforgivably, the last chance Cindy Birdsong had for a much-needed major payday) and publicly cried 'victim'. Three times 'yer out! I can't understand that anyone would think Diana would be open to more than cool, professional cordiality with Wilson.

[TheMotownManiac]

... and the unfortunate fact is that Wilson acted out of turn at M25, used that event as a platform to publish the back-handed remarks about Diana in 'Dreamgirl', then wreaked havoc on our last chance to see a true Supremes reunion [[and, unforgivably, the last chance Cindy Birdsong had for a much-needed major payday) and publicly cried 'victim'. Three times 'yer out! I can't understand that anyone would think Diana would be open to more than cool, professional cordiality with Wilson.

No one who learns from history, anyway.
As far as a vocal reunion goes, who needs Diana and Mary without Flo? The trio had the sound - only Marlene Barrow could approximate Flos voice and she’s gone, so what’s the point? Clearly Diana is not interested, what’s the point of a one-sided reunion of a trio missing a third of its line-up? LOL

[RanRan79]

Diana has contacted Mary exactly four times in three decades: twice to express sorrow/offer help and twice to discuss RTL. That’s it.

I'm curious to know how you would know that.

[PeaceNHarmony]

On Judy Garland forums there are posters who insist, INSIST!, that Lorna Luft is more talented than Liza OR Judy. And 80% of Republicans are SURE that djt is a GREAT president. So there 'ya have it. I guess this big, flat earth of ours has room for all kinds of believers! :)

[blackguy69]

I'm curious to know how you would know that.
I'm guessing almost everyone that posted on this thread has a direct line to Diana and her assistant

[TheMotownManiac]

I'm curious to know how you would know that.
Because I know Mary personally and have since 1972.

[TheMotownManiac]

I'm guessing almost everyone that posted on this thread has a direct line to Diana and her assistant

I have never met Diana or any of her staff.

[thanxal]

On Judy Garland forums there are posters who insist, INSIST!, that Lorna Luft is more talented than Liza OR Judy. And 80% of Republicans are SURE that djt is a GREAT president. So there 'ya have it. I guess this big, flat earth of ours has room for all kinds of believers! :)
There's an active Judy Garland forum somewhere? I thought they all ceased functioning a few years ago. If you have a URL, please share.

[rod_rick]

what childish games are “they” playing exactly? Diana has contacted Mary exactly four times in three decades: twice to express sorrow/offer help and twice to discuss RTL. That’s it. She doesn’t talk about Mary in interviews, use her for publicity, or even refer to her publicly except as a past professional colleague reference. She didn’t even call her directly when Mary was ill, but did care enough to inquire about her health and if she was in any need. Diana has shown no interest in Mary as a friend and Mary knows it and knows exactly why. Mary exacerbates the situation by going public and makes it worse by saying she’ll apologize for ”whatever it is” - like she hasn’t a clue. Mary has been telling the press for years that’s she’s ready to reunite and not heard a peep from Ross. She’s going to force the issue if she shows up in Vegas and once again, be disappointed - at least publicly. No one I know has ever, not one time, heard Mary refer to Diana as her best friend, friend or someone who she longs to rekindle the good old times with. Many folks here know one or more ex Supreme - ask them how Mary spoke of Ross.

Mary is a sweet, kind, very fun woman who is very accessible to her fans and is a blast to hang with. She loves to party and socialize and whoop it up. She’d slowing down these days - finally - but she had quite a ride and still has a lot of good times - more than most her age I suspect. I know a lot about her, but I cannot figure her angle on this......if she really IS longing for her buddy who she dug at age 13, it’s kind of sad.....but I do not believe that is it. Interesting topic though.

I believe Mary made it public to see if Diana would be receptive to meet with her and put her on noticed. Remember in the past Mary was not greeting warmly when she just popped up on her [[Diana).

[RanRan79]

I'm guessing almost everyone that posted on this thread has a direct line to Diana and her assistant

You know everybody knows Mary and Diana better than they know themselves.:rolleyes:

[RanRan79]

Because I know Mary personally and have since 1972.

And she's told you all of the times she and Diana have spoken in a specific time? The two of you must be close. Cool information.

[blackguy69]

And she's told you all of the times she and Diana have spoken in a specific time? The two of you must be close. Cool information.
I thought the same thing. Hey Ran another thought, have you noticed a certain group on here hasn't made one comment on this thread. Just a thought.

[TomatoTom123]

I actually know both Mary and Diana. I went to school with both of them. I mean, I wasn’t born yet, but that didn’t stop me. I was an incredibly academically-advanced inexistent foetus. Boy did I hear some gossip from the womb though, PHEW! I couldn’t possibly share any of it here though. When I finally was born I stayed close with both ladies throughout their careers and lives, right up to the present day. I can actually confirm that they phone each other every day and have a good laugh about the crazy arguments they cause on internet music forums. You wouldn’t believe it. :p

[luke]

As I said earlier we should just wish them well. Rod_rick is absolutely correct. Mary is a very decent person and she is also very wise. Actually an interviewer suggested to Mary that she should go see Diana as Mary lives in the Vegas area.

[blackguy69]

I actually know both Mary and Diana. I went to school with both of them. I mean, I wasn’t born yet, but that didn’t stop me. I was an incredibly academically-advanced inexistent foetus. Boy did I hear some gossip from the womb though, PHEW! I couldn’t possibly share any of it here though. When I finally was born I stayed close with both ladies throughout their careers and lives, right up to the present day. I can actually confirm that they phone each other every day and have a good laugh about the crazy arguments they cause on internet music forums. You wouldn’t believe it. :p

You crazy lol

[jobeterob]

Did Mary go to the show tonight? If not, that leaves Friday and Saturday

If I knew Diana, I would say she would have no comment on this-but I don't know her

[TheMotownManiac]

I believe Mary made it public to see if Diana would be receptive to meet with her and put her on noticed. Remember in the past Mary was not greeting warmly when she just popped up on her [[Diana).

Yes, I was there and anxious as hell when Diana winced at first as Mary approached her, but then smiled as they greeted each other and posed for pics and Mary spoke to Berry, and cast members. It could not have appeared any friendlier and happy. It was over in less than five minutes and their reunion was the big news of the opening in the news the next day. Mary said they exchanged “a few words” and indicated with her thumb and forefinger a very small amount.

[PeaceNHarmony]

i actually know both mary and diana. I went to school with both of them. I mean, i wasn’t born yet, but that didn’t stop me. I was an incredibly academically-advanced inexistent foetus. Boy did i hear some gossip from the womb though, phew! I couldn’t possibly share any of it here though. When i finally was born i stayed close with both ladies throughout their careers and lives, right up to the present day. I can actually confirm that they phone each other every day and have a good laugh about the crazy arguments they cause on internet music forums. You wouldn’t believe it. :p
l o v e i t ! ! !

[TheMotownManiac]

And she's told you all of the times she and Diana have spoken in a specific time? The two of you must be close. Cool information.
No. And I didn’t say that. What I said was that they have spoken 4 times in 3 decades and that info did not come to me as a statement like that. Since you seem to think this is untrue, About a month or so after Rafi’s Funeral, Mary called to thank us for our words, flowers and condolences. She mentioned that Diana had called her in the hospital and how surprised she was since they hadn’t spoken in so long. She then said Diana called a second time, I believe the next day, to offer any financial help Mary might need to deal with the accident and services. During RTL, Mary was livid that there was a lot of talk of a reunion and she “had not heard from Diane since the accident.” I think everyone can understand why this was upsetting to her if Diana was talking to all kinds of folks about the possibility of a reunion but not the other essential member of the tour. Mary voiced her feelings and Diana was not apologetic. The second call was to inform Mary it was all set. There may have been a third, now that I think of it, I can’t remember, but once it became a money thing, she never called again and spoke through her people. According to Mary, that’s the last time they spoke on the phone. You can verify this easily simply by emailing Mary at her website and asking her. It’s true that over the years Mary has indicated more closeness than there was, but she didn’t want the press exacerbating the situation by building a feud or bad feelings where there is none. Ask her.

[jobeterob]

I take it Mary was a "no show" last night.

There is video around from last week with Rhonda singing and Evan and family on the stage as well.

[captainjames]

Great if Mary wants to go see Diana in concert and good for her. I am not certain why it has to be public and announced. Everyone is different and has their way of doing things and I am not aware of everything that has went down between the two. If I was going to ask a buddy to lets move on from here .......I would do it privately. If its heartfelt and honest and loving, we as the fans really don't need to know anything about this reunion. It was good to see Rhonda, Tracee and Evan with mom. Diana loves her grandchildren.

[RanRan79]

I thought the same thing. Hey Ran another thought, have you noticed a certain group on here hasn't made one comment on this thread. Just a thought.

Of course I noticed. Lol You would think the president of that club would be all over a Mary thread. But I guess when Mary is talking about making amends with Diana he wouldn't be too happy. Supposedly he knows Mary too [[and everyone else at Motown and they've all told him their deepest darkest Motown secrets especially where they relate to Diana Ross) so maybe he called Mary and told her to stop making nice with Diana. It's not good for his business.:rolleyes:

[RanRan79]

I actually know both Mary and Diana. I went to school with both of them. I mean, I wasn’t born yet, but that didn’t stop me. I was an incredibly academically-advanced inexistent foetus. Boy did I hear some gossip from the womb though, PHEW! I couldn’t possibly share any of it here though. When I finally was born I stayed close with both ladies throughout their careers and lives, right up to the present day. I can actually confirm that they phone each other every day and have a good laugh about the crazy arguments they cause on internet music forums. You wouldn’t believe it. :p

Tom give them our love please. You wouldn't believe it if I told you, but everybody here wishes them the best. Everybody.:)

[RanRan79]

No. And I didn’t say that. What I said was that they have spoken 4 times in 3 decades and that info did not come to me as a statement like that. Since you seem to think this is untrue, About a month or so after Rafi’s Funeral, Mary called to thank us for our words, flowers and condolences. She mentioned that Diana had called her in the hospital and how surprised she was since they hadn’t spoken in so long. She then said Diana called a second time, I believe the next day, to offer any financial help Mary might need to deal with the accident and services. During RTL, Mary was livid that there was a lot of talk of a reunion and she “had not heard from Diane since the accident.” I think everyone can understand why this was upsetting to her if Diana was talking to all kinds of folks about the possibility of a reunion but not the other essential member of the tour. Mary voiced her feelings and Diana was not apologetic. The second call was to inform Mary it was all set. There may have been a third, now that I think of it, I can’t remember, but once it became a money thing, she never called again and spoke through her people. According to Mary, that’s the last time they spoke on the phone. You can verify this easily simply by emailing Mary at her website and asking her. It’s true that over the years Mary has indicated more closeness than there was, but she didn’t want the press exacerbating the situation by building a feud or bad feelings where there is none. Ask her.

It's not about whether I believe you or not. You made a statement [["Diana has contacted Mary exactly four times in three decades: twice to express sorrow/offer help and twice to discuss RTL. That’s it.") that was presented as a fact. Your response to my question of how you would know this information left me scratching my head a bit. If you know Mary well enough to know how many times she and Diana have spoken in three decades, it would seem to reason that if you "cannot figure her angle on this" that you might venture to get that inside scoop as opposed to dissecting it with minimal information like the rest of us who do not know Mary the way you do. And even with that being said, I am by no means suggesting you're lying. The point I made in a previous post is that all of us are on the outside of whatever relationship Diana and Mary have, and while we so often think we know what's going on, the truth is we never know everything. We only know what they choose to tell us. Likewise, if you and Mary have a friendship there's nothing I can say about it in either direction. Could you be lying? Of course. Lots of people in this forum do. Could you be telling the truth? Of course. Mary has lots of friends and I don't see why you couldn't be one of them. But even armed with what I may now consider inside information, what with you and Mary being friends, regarding how often Diana and Mary communicated, I stand by my original statement: no one but those two women know to what extent they communicate. They tell people what they want people to know. And I'm basing that off of the fact that Diana Ross and Mary Wilson are human beings, despite their legendary celebrity status. Even in an average Joe relationship, no one but the two people involved ever really know anything about it and only tell outsiders what they want them to know. Everyone else are bystanders thinking they know, but 9 times out of 10 really having no idea. That's life.

But forgive me if I came across as putting you in the "liar folder". I enjoy our banter [[whether we're agreeing or disagreeing) when we discuss the music. Calling you an outright liar wasn't my intention.

[jobeterob]

Well it looks like as predicted by many, there will be no comment from Miss Ross

And Mary will remain at home

[PeaceNHarmony]

Well it looks like as predicted by many, there will be no comment from Miss Ross

And Mary will remain at home
For the better all around.

[jobeterob]

Yes, perhaps. I do buy into the thought that Diana won't pay it any attention. Grandchildren yes, the current show yes, the past no.

But I will see what the news brings tonight and tomorrow.

Anyone can buy a ticket and watch the show.

[Boogiedown]

floyjoy678

[[https://soulfuldetroit.com/member.php?1360-floyjoy678)

I always wonder if Flo was alive if these childish games Mary and Diana play with each other would have went on. I believe she would have put her foot down.



If Flo were alive there would have been no Dreamgirl book. If Flo were alive, there would have been no Motown 25 shenanigans on either Diana or Mary's part. I think Flo did a lot of growing up when she started climbing up after hitting rock bottom. I just can't see her tolerating the nonsense. Remember, after everything that had gone down between her and Diana in the 60s, and then naming Diana in the lawsuit in the 70s [[maliciously kicking her out of the group, the suit said), it was Florence who called Diana up and gave the two of them their final moment before Flo's death. She was already operating on a more mature level than her singing partners at that point, and I think if she had lived, her influence would have been greater. [[I also think if she had lived, the original Supremes would have reunited for more music eventually.)

OK now we've gone from St. Mary to St. Flo:p who apparently simply by virtue of her continuing existence would've risen to the occasion and single handedly reunited the Supremes , returned them back to the top of the music scene, and undoubtedly eventually guide them on to five more #1 singles in a row in the eighties !:p

Just having fun with ya there,
but seriously --- why on earth would Diana Ross be calling Florence Ballard in the mid-seventies, or better yet why exactly did Florence call her ? Just casual girl talk ? I don't know that's why I pose the question.

[jobeterob]

So I gather this is all over and Mary did not attend

[Circa 1824]

I am shocked that Mary would tell a lie to get attention ........ hahahahhaha

[floyjoy678]

OK now we've gone from St. Mary to St. Flo:p who apparently simply by virtue of her continuing existence would've risen to the occasion and single handedly reunited the Supremes , returned them back to the top of the music scene, and undoubtedly eventually guide them on to five more #1 singles in a row in the eighties !:p

Just having fun with ya there,
but seriously --- why on earth would Diana Ross be calling Florence Ballard in the mid-seventies, or better yet why exactly did Florence call her ? Just casual girl talk ? I don't know that's why I pose the question.

In the words of Florence Ballard: "I saw Mahogany and I just felt like calling her up."

[RanRan79]

OK now we've gone from St. Mary to St. Flo:p who apparently simply by virtue of her continuing existence would've risen to the occasion and single handedly reunited the Supremes , returned them back to the top of the music scene, and undoubtedly eventually guide them on to five more #1 singles in a row in the eighties !:p

Absolutely! Remember the report a million years ago that Diana was walking into a restaurant or club and someone shouted at her that Florence had died for Diana's sins? I think some people took that as the person suggesting that Diana caused Flo's death in someway, but because Florence was a Saint, I think the person may have been speaking in a religious sense.:p

And yes, Flo had the power to bring the group back together and she was the key to them adding additional number one singles to their legacy. It was all planned out too until those men who were with Diana in Flo's basement the night before she died decided to murder her. Or at least that's what has been alleged in this forum a bit ago.:rolleyes:


why on earth would Diana Ross be calling Florence Ballard in the mid-seventies, or better yet why exactly did Florence call her ? Just casual girl talk ? I don't know that's why I pose the question.

Back to the serious portion of the discussion. Both Flo and Diana have confirmed that in 1975 Flo called Diana and the two of them had a nice conversation for about an hour. Flo has said she had the need to speak to Diana. Diana has said the call surprised her. It was also during this call that Diana confirms that Flo indeed was interested in getting back to singing, contrary to what some folks around here like to say, that Flo didn't desire to be a singer anymore.

Like I said in my other post, Flo seemed to be maturing. And while a lot of people around here like to oversimplify the relationships of the Supremes [[comparing them to people who work "regular" jobs), the truth is they were just like us: with complicated relationships. Florence has gone on record very clearly about her love for Mary and Diana, no matter what went down. It doesn't surprise me that after some years apart, and some growing up, that one would reach out to the other. I've done it. I've had it done to me. Nothing saintly about it.

[jim aka jtigre99]

There was a video of Diana Ross doing a Q&A on Facebook. She was asked if she kept in touch with the other Supremes and she said "no!". She stated that Florence was dead, she had no idea where Cindy Birdsong was and that she was not in touch with Mary Wilson and that maybe she was in the audience. Wilson was elsewhere at the time, not going to Vegas. I have to admit that I did not care for how Miss Ross answered the question, think Wilson does handle it better by saying that life has made them all go in different directions rather than I have no idea where Cindy is and that the only one she knows where they are is Flo, because she has passed. The answer just did seem dismissive and in some ways, rude, but clearly Ross is saying that they are not friendly. Time to Move On.

[bradsupremes]

There was a video of Diana Ross doing a Q&A on Facebook. She was asked if she kept in touch with the other Supremes and she said "no!". She stated that Florence was dead, she had no idea where Cindy Birdsong was and that she was not in touch with Mary Wilson and that maybe she was in the audience. Wilson was elsewhere at the time, not going to Vegas. I have to admit that I did not care for how Miss Ross answered the question, think Wilson does handle it better by saying that life has made them all go in different directions rather than I have no idea where Cindy is and that the only one she knows where they are is Flo, because she has passed. The answer just did seem dismissive and in some ways, rude, but clearly Ross is saying that they are not friendly. Time to Move On.

When was this video? Just recently? A Facebook Q&A doesn’t sound like something Diana would do. I have a hard time believing her being so dismissive of Mary, Flo & Cindy as if she didn’t care. Doesn’t sound like her today especially within the past decade she’s been very complimentary of them.

Diana very much knows where Cindy is and is very much aware of Cindy’s health condition.

Did anyone else see this Q&A?

[vgalindo]

When was this video? Just recently? A Facebook Q&A doesn’t sound like something Diana would do. I have a hard time believing her being so dismissive of Mary, Flo & Cindy as if she didn’t care. Doesn’t sound like her today especially within the past decade she’s been very complimentary of them.

Diana very much knows where Cindy is and is very much aware of Cindy’s health condition.

Did anyone else see this Q&A?

It was Q&A at her recent concert at the Wynn Theater. She said Florence passed away and that she was trying to look for Cindy and couldn't find her. If anybody knew where she was? Said she doesn't stay in touch with Mary Wilson. That as far as she was concerned Mary could be in the audience for all she knows. And she laughed. She said it has been a long time since she has seen them or know where they are at. I am paraphrasing.

[Jaap]

It was a Q&A session during the Ross Wynn concerts this week, during which somebody asked if Ross was still in contact with the other Supremes. Her answer was not dismissive, just pointing out Florence had passed away and that the others had moved on with their lives. Her comment that she was not able to get in touch with Cindy Birdsong was rather awkward [[for someone like Ross it should not be difficult to get in contact), but her response about Mary Wilson was very clear... that train has left the station.

[thanxal]

Here it is. Judge for yourselves. Exact question at 2:35. She called Florence Ballard "the Original Supreme", doesn't know where Cindy is and "I never stay in touch with Mary Wilson".
https://youtu.be/blqKtk_nrUE

[bradsupremes]

Here it is. Judge for yourselves. Exact question at 2:35. She called Florence Ballard "the Original Supreme", doesn't know where Cindy is and "I never stay in touch with Mary Wilson".
https://youtu.be/blqKtk_nrUE

Oh okay, I thought this was a Facebook live Q&A she did. Didn’t know she did this Q&A in concert.

She certainly wasn’t coming off as dismissive. She was forthcoming and honest...well almost. She doesn’t know where Cindy is? She knows. She knows exactly where Cindy is and Cindy’s health. She’s well-informed and kept up-to-date on how she’s doing. While I believe her when she talks about not staying in touch with Mary, I don’t believe her when it comes to Cindy. She knows.

[Circa 1824]

I really hope the Q&A becomes part of her shows. Very refreshing.

Ross said she did not know if Wilson was in the audience, and she clearly was not looking around for her there. Thus, it seems she does not give a hoot about the Wilson gal. Honesty at last. Bravo !!!

[Circa 1824]

P.S. it is great to know Diana is losing weight. Who knew her knees were bad?

Also, I wonder if the lady who asked about the Supremes was a plant in order for Ross to subtlety tell the Wilson gal to stop talking about her in interviews as if they still have some sort of relationship or that a reconciliation or reunion is possible.

[PeaceNHarmony]

Oh okay, I thought this was a Facebook live Q&A she did. Didn’t know she did this Q&A in concert.

She certainly wasn’t coming off as dismissive. She was forthcoming and honest...well almost. She doesn’t know where Cindy is? She knows. She knows exactly where Cindy is and Cindy’s health. She’s well-informed and kept up-to-date on how she’s doing. While I believe her when she talks about not staying in touch with Mary, I don’t believe her when it comes to Cindy. She knows.
This. I recall it as well and agree with you 100%. Ross respects privacy and does not want to get into a 'thang pouring t for the public about Cindy's current state. Much like Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis, Ross is all about family first and friends second, and betray a confidence, 'yer out.

[Roberta75]

Oh okay, I thought this was a Facebook live Q&A she did. Didn’t know she did this Q&A in concert.

She certainly wasn’t coming off as dismissive. She was forthcoming and honest...well almost. She doesn’t know where Cindy is? She knows. She knows exactly where Cindy is and Cindy’s health. She’s well-informed and kept up-to-date on how she’s doing. While I believe her when she talks about not staying in touch with Mary, I don’t believe her when it comes to Cindy. She knows.

And ive been told by a real close friend of Cindys that Ross knows how she is and where she is and has quietly assissted financially towards Cindys current plight. Ive never bought Marys stories about being in touch and sending holiday cards and how they truly love Each other and are in touch but I cant say for sure if Marys telling tall tales or not and at the end of the day its not my business and theres bigger things in the world to worry about imo.

Roberta

[captainjames]

Cindy's situation and where she is at is private.. Ross did good.

[PeaceNHarmony]

And ive been told by a real close friend of Cindys that Ross knows how she is and where she is and has quietly assissted financially towards Cindys current plight. Ive never bought Marys stories about being in touch and sending holiday cards and how they truly love Each other and are in touch but I cant say for sure if Marys telling tall tales or not and at the end of the day its not my business and theres bigger things in the world to worry about imo.

Roberta
You. Go. LADY! Your friend, as always.

[PeaceNHarmony]

Cindy's situation and where she is at is private.. Ross did good.
This. And then some.

[floyjoy678]

Not gonna lie I lol'ed when she said Mary could be in the audience. Obviously she got wind of Mary's recent comments about attending her show.

[RanRan79]

Here it is. Judge for yourselves. Exact question at 2:35. She called Florence Ballard "the Original Supreme", doesn't know where Cindy is and "I never stay in touch with Mary Wilson".
https://youtu.be/blqKtk_nrUE

Sounds to me like that was the most pointed way of saying "I don't fuck with Mary Wilson" and remaining a class act. Lol Oh well.

It is confusing to read comments saying Diana is aware of Cindy's situation and contributing financially and then hear Diana say that she's tried looking for Cindy but can't find her. Somebody is lying.

[luke]

You’re not kidding. I find this all a bit coincidental and Diana saying Mary could be In The audience after Mary not attending any of her shows for almost thirty years and then saying she might go to her Vegas show. And Scherrie said she called her about Susaye joining Flos. Scherrie visits Cindy!

[Roberta75]

Sounds to me like that was the most pointed way of saying "I don't fuck with Mary Wilson" and remaining a class act. Lol Oh well.

It is confusing to read comments saying Diana is aware of Cindy's situation and contributing financially and then hear Diana say that she's tried looking for Cindy but can't find her. Somebody is lying.

Or maybe Diana Ross is respecting Cindys privacy and taking the high road.

[TomatoTom123]

Here it is. Judge for yourselves. Exact question at 2:35. She called Florence Ballard "the Original Supreme", doesn't know where Cindy is and "I never stay in touch with Mary Wilson".
https://youtu.be/blqKtk_nrUE

Damn, who had the guts to ask Diana that question?!! Lol... interesting to hear her response though... :)

Thanks for posting thanxal

[bradsupremes]

Sounds to me like that was the most pointed way of saying "I don't fuck with Mary Wilson" and remaining a class act. Lol Oh well.

It is confusing to read comments saying Diana is aware of Cindy's situation and contributing financially and then hear Diana say that she's tried looking for Cindy but can't find her. Somebody is lying.

Diana knows where is Cindy. I know I’m not the only person on here who knows she’s informed on Cindy’s condition. Maybe Diana wanted to play it off and respect Cindy’s privacy. She could have simply said “I’ve heard Cindy respects her privacy.” To say she can’t find her sends the wrong message.

As for Mary, I’m sure Diana heard of Mary saying she would possibly attend one of her shows, but I don’t read into her saying she could be in the audience or that she doesn’t talk to her as anything disrespectful. These women are in their 70’s. Do people still think these ladies are still trying to stick it to the other? They’re on their own paths in life and I’m sure wish the other the best and send love. I’ve had a few friends that I had problems with the past and even though we don’t talk anymore and I still have love for them and hope they’re happy and doing well.

[Roberta75]

Diana knows where is Cindy. I know I’m not the only person on here who knows she’s informed on Cindy’s condition. Maybe Diana wanted to play it off and respect Cindy’s privacy. She could have simply said “I’ve heard Cindy respects her privacy.” To say she can’t find her sends the wrong message.

As for Mary, I’m sure Diana heard of Mary saying she would possibly attend one of her shows, but I don’t read into her saying she could be in the audience or that she doesn’t talk to her as anything disrespectful. These women are in their 70’s. Do people still think these ladies are still trying to stick it to the other? They’re on their own paths in life and I’m sure wish the other the best and send love. I’ve had a few friends that I had problems with the past and even though we don’t talk anymore and I still have love for them and hope they’re happy and doing well.

The voice of reason dear. Thank you.

Roberta������

[longtimefan]

Diana knows where is Cindy. I know I’m not the only person on here who knows she’s informed on Cindy’s condition. Maybe Diana wanted to play it off and respect Cindy’s privacy. She could have simply said “I’ve heard Cindy respects her privacy.” To say she can’t find her sends the wrong message.

As for Mary, I’m sure Diana heard of Mary saying she would possibly attend one of her shows, but I don’t read into her saying she could be in the audience or that she doesn’t talk to her as anything disrespectful. These women are in their 70’s. Do people still think these ladies are still trying to stick it to the other? They’re on their own paths in life and I’m sure wish the other the best and send love. I’ve had a few friends that I had problems with the past and even though we don’t talk anymore and I still have love for them and hope they’re happy and doing well.


I basically agree with you, Brad, and your statements are well informed. True, the issues between Diana and Mary are old and tired and barely need discussion.

However, I am very sad that with all of her kudos and well deserved success, Diana took a public occasion in this show to marginalize Cindy. With her resources, she could certainly “find” Cindy! That remark was insincere — and as a true Diana fan, I cannot come up with any a logical reason that she should have said this. Too bad.

[RanRan79]

Or maybe Diana Ross is respecting Cindys privacy and taking the high road.

Not buying it. Diana is an intelligent woman. She knows how to answer a question without invading someone's privacy and lying. If she knows all about Cindy's health issues [[as so many fans do, even if we don't know the particulars) then saying she doesn't know where the woman is, is a flat out lie. And an unnecessary one at that. There's no high road to take about Cindy.

Fan: Do you keep in touch with the other Supremes? [[Paraphrased)

Diana: Well, Florence has passed on. I don't fu-, um I mean I don't keep in touch with Mary Wilson. And Cindy and I communicate.

She really would have needed to say no more than that.

[RanRan79]

However, I am very sad that with all of her kudos and well deserved success, Diana took a public occasion in this show to marginalize Cindy. With her resources, she could certainly “find” Cindy! That remark was insincere — and as a true Diana fan, I cannot come up with any a logical reason that she should have said this. Too bad.

Insincere. That's exactly how it comes across to me, whether she knows where Cindy is or not. But I do hope behind the scenes Diana is staying true to form and helping Cindy out where and how she can. Diana is good for that kind of thing. Very free hearted in that way.

[floyjoy678]

On another positive observation: Diana seems to be reverting back to her Supremes days with her performances. She's doing the over the top facial expressions, bugging out her eyes and hunching up her shoulders. Its so cute. It's the Diana that I love. I even saw a clip of her performing Come See About Me and she was doing some of the original choreography that they used to do for the song. She seems like she's really having fun with the Supremes songs nowadays.

[longtimefan]

Note that Diana actually said that she has been looking for her [[Cindy) and has not found her. As a true Diana fan, “strange” is the nicest word that I can think of. Sad, actually.... unnecessary, too.

[luke]

And if Mary was in the audience she wouldn’t know it and therefore wouldn’t acknowledge her. ?! Diana is a piece of work

[Jimi LaLumia]

OMG! let it go, people! this was a Ross concert, not a Supremes show and she remained civil..what happened, happened, and while I'm a fan of all the ladies, if someone wrote a book like that about me, and then publicly pulled the rug out of a national tour they'd been invited on, well, forget about it...after the book, I'd never give then a second chance, and certainly not a third... and neither would any of you..move on!

[thanxal]

OMG! let it go, people! this was a Ross concert, not a Supremes show and she remained civil..what happened, happened, and while I'm a fan of all the ladies, if someone wrote a book like that about me, and then publicly pulled the rug out of a national tour they'd been invited on, well, forget about it...after the book, I'd never give then a second chance, and certainly not a third... and neither would any of you..move on!
No molehills shall ever be passed over without making them into mountains here in the Motown Forum, esp. when it comes to Mary and Diana.

[PeaceNHarmony]

OMG! let it go, people! this was a Ross concert, not a Supremes show and she remained civil..what happened, happened, and while I'm a fan of all the ladies, if someone wrote a book like that about me, and then publicly pulled the rug out of a national tour they'd been invited on, well, forget about it...after the book, I'd never give then a second chance, and certainly not a third... and neither would any of you..move on!
To you, sir, I bow down.

[captainjames]

OMG! let it go, people! this was a Ross concert, not a Supremes show and she remained civil..what happened, happened, and while I'm a fan of all the ladies, if someone wrote a book like that about me, and then publicly pulled the rug out of a national tour they'd been invited on, well, forget about it...after the book, I'd never give then a second chance, and certainly not a third... and neither would any of you..move on!

So true - The fans seem to think they know more about what is going on with these women than these women.

[reese]

I listened to the Q&A and agree with those who think that Diana was just respecting Cindy's privacy. Sure, she could have worded her response better but that is the risk one takes when doing an impromptu Q&A. You never know what question is going to be thrown at you and there is often little or no time to choose your words.

[RanRan79]

Diana's response regarding Cindy was disingenuous at best, a flat out lie at worst. And that's disappointing. Her statement about Mary I'll take at face value and the final word on their relationship. Anything that happens [[positive) in the future between these two will officially take me by surprise. I'm officially over it, as Diana appears to be also. In the words of Mary, time to move on.

[RanRan79]

Btw, for the record I'll talk about whatever the fuck I wanna talk about in here unless told to refrain by Ralph. Just thought I'd put that out there in case there's any misconceptions regarding any thoughts about allowed or disallowed topics in the forum. You may return to your regularly scheduled program.:cool:

[jobeterob]

So it's now final? No Mary, No Mary in Audience, No Response from Diana. All a continuation of "it's been 30 years and we've hardly seen each other".

Actually, two lawyers worked with me in the past and I haven't seen one for 33 years and the other one for 29 years.

So, it's pretty common I expect.

[floyjoy678]

So it's now final? No Mary, No Mary in Audience, No Response from Diana. All a continuation of "it's been 30 years and we've hardly seen each other".

Actually, two lawyers worked with me in the past and I haven't seen one for 33 years and the other one for 29 years.

So, it's pretty common I expect.

It really is. Even with personal friendships it's common. My best friend from childhood and I had a falling out around age 24. He tried to reconnect a few years after but I had no interest as our lives had moved in different directions in that short amount of time. It's been years since we've talked or seen each other but I still look back fondly on the many good memories and laughs we shared as friends.

[Guy]

Much ado about nothing, courtesy of Miss Wilson.

[franjoy56]

I think its a good thing mary wants t see her show and perhaps say hello and forget bygones nothing mentioned about a reunion. Afterall they made history together and even if diana has moved on is it a sin f mary to want t make things right aftet all these years

[RanRan79]

I think its a good thing mary wants t see her show and perhaps say hello and forget bygones nothing mentioned about a reunion. Afterall they made history together and even if diana has moved on is it a sin f mary to want t make things right aftet all these years

Not a sin, but it appears that Ross is making it clear that she aint the least bit interested in rekindling a relationship with Mary, so Mary would be better served to leave Diana in the past and move on for good. I'm sure Mary had the best of intentions. And if Diana thinks it best to leave Mary in her past, I get it. I've left more than a few folks in my yesteryear. The great thing is that for us fans we have all that great music the two women created together and all of the terrific performance footage of them over the years as the Supremes.

[Boogiedown]

I think it's great Diana Ross is doing Q and A and it seems here the questions are genuine. It takes courage to field questions like that , a very generous thing to do towards her fans who'll treasure the opportunity to interact. Maybe Diana doesn't realize that casual comments these days will likely get recorded and find their way outside the room to be more closely scrutinized . She might want to work on making her answers more thoughtful . But, I don't want her answers to be fake and totally rehearsed either . If having been a Supreme at one point in her life totally bores her , so be it.

[Boogiedown]

https://soulfuldetroit.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by RanRan79 https://soulfuldetroit.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png [[https://soulfuldetroit.com/showthread.php?p=422010#post422010)
Btw, for the record I'll talk about whatever the fuck I wanna talk about in here unless told to refrain by Ralph. .:cool:

OK then let's do it !!! I'd like to back this thread up a bit if you please :


RanRan 79:

Back to the serious portion of the discussion. Both Flo and Diana have confirmed that in 1975 Flo called Diana and the two of them had a nice conversation for about an hour. Flo has said she had the need to speak to Diana. Diana has said the call surprised her. It was also during this call that Diana confirms that Flo indeed was interested in getting back to singing, contrary to what some folks around here like to say, that Flo didn't desire to be a singer anymore.


Thanks for that info Ran! When Flo says she "had the need" to speak to Diana , I wonder what her need was in talking with her ?? As far as the part of the conversation where Flo expresses a renewed interest in singing , when Diana likely asked, "So whatcha' got going on Flo ?", I wouldn't expect her to say anything other than her wanting to get back into singing. What else? I'm not getting the impression though that the call was specifically about Flo wanting to discuss with Diana her singing future , or that she was seeking Diana's help in this area. ???


RanRan 79:
Like I said in my other post, Flo seemed to be maturing. And while a lot of people around here like to oversimplify the relationships of the Supremes [[comparing them to people who work "regular" jobs), the truth is they were just like us: with complicated relationships. Florence has gone on record very clearly about her love for Mary and Diana, no matter what went down. It doesn't surprise me that after some years apart, and some growing up, that one would reach out to the other. I've done it. I've had it done to me. Nothing saintly about it.


So I'm not referring to the phone call as being anything saintly. I too have made such types of calls , and I definitely ain't no Saint!:p Flo gets that designation because of the idea that's being suggested that Flo had the Supreme Power: that all Flo needed to do was wave her backup singer arms a certain way and both Diana and Mary would obediently fall into line --- and above that, if Flo had lived to command it, the Supremes would've eventually gotten something going again . Sainthood stuff for sure !

But, can we really be so assertive that by re-adding Flo to the mix it would've made it smooth sailing between the three , isn't it just as possible it would just make matters ten times worse?

So, was the call to Diana due to some sort of new found maturity on Flo's part ? We don't even fully know Flo's intentions, or what state Flo was in that day when she suddenly made the call, not suggesting anything here, just saying no one knows. And you could say Diana's having not called Flo showed maturity on Diana's part, she likely realized with her career in full swing and in a stable place , the risks from opening that old can of worms made reaching out not worth it.

What is wonderful is that these two did talk , about whatever , and without an awareness of the heavy cloud hovering over them concerning the tragedy waiting just up the road.

[Jimi LaLumia]

and that Ross has always been there for Ballard's kids, financially and elsewise, which the kids apparently are glad to acknowledge in public, and maybe that was part of the conversation, that if anything were to ever happen to Ballard..no one will ever truly know except Ross and she ain't tellin.

[RanRan79]

Thanks for that info Ran! When Flo says she "had the need" to speak to Diana , I wonder what her need was in talking with her ?? As far as the part of the conversation where Flo expresses a renewed interest in singing , when Diana likely asked, "So whatcha' got going on Flo ?", I wouldn't expect her to say anything other than her wanting to get back into singing. What else? I'm not getting the impression though that the call was specifically about Flo wanting to discuss with Diana her singing future , or that she was seeking Diana's help in this area. ???

According to Florence, they spent most of the time talking about motherhood, so I don't think her stepping back into a musical career was the reason for the call. Interesting note: a researcher named Rick B [[can't remember how to spell his last name) MANY years ago, he said that Diana actually offered Flo the use of her home when and if she decided to come to LA to jump start her career. If this is true, I think it also says a lot about Diana's feelings for Flo, again, after everything that had gone down between them. Keep in mind that Diana is also said to have attempted to save Florence's home before she lost it, and of course we know that for many years Diana kept in touch with and did things for Flo's children. So there was definitely something more between these two women than the normal "we use to work together" feelings. For all the talk about former colleagues, how many of you all have done these things for someone you once worked with?

Btw, Flo has never struck me as the kind of person who answers a question like "whatcha got going on" with anything other than the truth. If she wasn't interested in singing I don't think she would've mentioned her plans.


So I'm not referring to the phone call as being anything saintly. I too have made such types of calls , and I definitely ain't no Saint!:p Flo gets that designation because of the idea that's being suggested that Flo had the Supreme Power: that all Flo needed to do was wave her backup singer arms a certain way and both Diana and Mary would obediently fall into line --- and above that, if Flo had lived to command it, the Supremes would've eventually gotten something going again . Sainthood stuff for sure !

Lol Oversimplification of a fix, for sure. However, again I must stress that I use real life experience when I'm dissecting the Supremes story, because they are, ya know, real people. [[I think that is forgotten sometimes, believe it or not.) And there are people that I know personally who have personalities or mindsets that give them a commanding presence. They have the ability to operate within a relationship that keeps everyone in line. Flo is said to have had a mothering type of presence at times, and that was when she was in her 20s and hadn't even had children yet. I can only imagine how much more of that instinct she received after becoming a real mother. I think she had it in her to potentially keep her singing partners' egos in check had she lived and grown more.

Remember, at this point in her life [[75/76) Flo was already maturely taking responsibility for her role in the end of the original Supremes. That is something I still haven't heard Diana do in her 70s. Mary willingly states the part that she played but IMO still doesn't accept the fact that what she did was some bullshit. Just a bunch of excuses. [[I do understand her excuses though and I'm certainly not holding it against her.) As I said before, Flo seemed to be maturing in a way that her singing partners hadn't yet done, and I think had she continued to live, her presence would have had a positive effect on the original Supremes going forward.


But, can we really be so assertive that by re-adding Flo to the mix it would've made it smooth sailing between the three , isn't it just as possible it would just make matters ten times worse?

Very possible. There's a chance that if the three women didn't have a sit down to talk about [[as Diana once put it) "the heart", all the old issues would've crept back up. Personally I believe that was the problem with Motown 25. Mary had issues that had never been dealt with and as a result, she was paranoid about being just another one of Diana's backup singers at their reunion and she acted unprofessionally during the taping, which resulted in Diana also acting unprofessionally. [[Not that I'm blaming Mary for Diana's behavior. Diana was grown enough to know how to deal with that without acting like a child.) And we know how things just went downhill from there. Who knows, maybe if Flo had been there, a couple of bitches might have ended up on the floor. How's that for a headline the next day? Lol But somehow I don't think that would have been the case.


So, was the call to Diana due to some sort of new found maturity on Flo's part ? We don't even fully know Flo's intentions, or what state Flo was in that day when she suddenly made the call, not suggesting anything here, just saying no one knows. And you could say Diana's having not called Flo showed maturity on Diana's part, she likely realized with her career in full swing and in a stable place , the risks from opening that old can of worms made reaching out not worth it.

Diana mature in 1975? Who you kiddin?? LOL But in truth, no one here can say with certainty what was going on in any of the women's minds, unless we consulted them. And in Flo's case that's impossible. I just use my brain to deduce the probability based on the information I do have, the same way people who write about Abe Lincoln or Martin Luther King arrive at potential scenarios based on research. I stand behind my original comments: Flo very likely would have kept the ship righted had she lived. And there would have been no Dreamgirl book to really nail the coffin shut. [[I've always felt that if Flo lived Mary wouldn't have had the balls to write the book. The book sold on the strength of Diana dirt and Flo's tragic story.)


What is wonderful is that these two did talk , about whatever , and without an awareness of the heavy cloud hovering over them concerning the tragedy waiting just up the road.

That's the beautiful thing. I'm glad they had that moment.

[Circa 1824]

Diana could have told the whole story in her autobiography, but she choose to write a fluff piece with little or no substance. She will never again have the opportunity to tell her story for “the first time.” If there is ever a part 2 to her autobiography, the record might be set straight about many things.

Not sure I am all that interested now because years and decades slowly change one’s interests and loves.

[gman]

this is show biz...we can all assume from the public going ons but who really knows what goes on privately between well known public figures? I loved Cindy...vocal power wise, she may have been the weakest but she was and still is my all time favorite Supreme in the soprano role. Man, did she look good! there was always something endearing in her presence...and I always wanted to ask her why she never changed her wig during TCB??? and BTW..exactly how many blonde wigs did Mary have?

[PeaceNHarmony]

this is show biz...we can all assume from the public going ons but who really knows what goes on privately between well known public figures? I loved Cindy...vocal power wise, she may have been the weakest but she was and still is my all time favorite Supreme in the soprano role. Man, did she look good! there was always something endearing in her presence...and I always wanted to ask her why she never changed her wig during TCB??? and BTW..exactly how many blonde wigs did Mary have?
I loved Cindy as well; she brought the group into a 'lady-like' stature after the greatly appealing sassy teen- then young-lady phases. Don't know about the wigs - maybe newish to the group she just didn't have the deep catalog of changes Diana and Mary had.

[floyjoy678]

I loved Cindy as well; she brought the group into a 'lady-like' stature after the greatly appealing sassy teen- then young-lady phases. Don't know about the wigs - maybe newish to the group she just didn't have the deep catalog of changes Diana and Mary had.

That's a very good way to word it. I always thought it was amazing how much different the group seemed just by Cindy coming into the group. If you watch the girls on Sullivan from May of '67 with Flo and then the Hollywood palace just a few months later in September with Cindy, it's amazing how much more mature the group came off in that short amount of time. I do love Cindy and thought she had an amazing personality but the magic that made the Supremes for me was gone when Flo left.

[Jaap]

Secrets of a Sparrow is definitely fluffy and does not "set the record straight," yet does contain interesting and revealing parts. In her essay on Diana Ross, published in her book On Racial Icons: Blackness and the Public Imagination [[which features a picture of Ross on the cover) by Nicole R. Fleetwood and published by Rutgers University Press, Fleetwood quotes from the memoirs and subsequently writes: "While the memoir is not meant to be challenging reading or sober in tone, Ross pointedly addresses the continued struggle agains racial oppression [[using the powerful term bondage to signal injustice)." See below for part of the Ross quote and the interpretation by Fleetwood. The essay "Giving Face: Diana Ross and the Black Celebrity as Icon" [[as well as the entire book) is a great read if you can appreciate academic jargon.
13711

[jobeterob]

I expect Secrets of a Sparrow will be her last book with any discussion of anything in any way personal regarding The Supremes.

What is the point of anything else now?

She has collected most of the major awards she could possibly collect. She made a fortune. She hasn't had much to do with any Supremes for many years although she may have a friendship with many of them.

Most of the public doesn't really care anymore what their relationship was or is.

What matters to Diana Ross is her family and extended family although she's obviously thrilled to be getting more awards at 73.

[imakicola]

Or maybe Diana Ross is respecting Cindys privacy and taking the high road.

That’s not an “or.” High road or not, a lie is a lie.

[milven]

I remember pre-ordering an autobiography by Diana Ross around 2002 called "Upside Down [[........)" Can't remember the full title of the book. It stayed on pre-order for quite a long time, and then was cancelled.

If it was going to be Diana's tell-all book, she must have had second thoughts about releasing the book, and decided to go high when others went low. It was also at a low point of her life, and being negative usually only brings you lower.

Since then, she has had a wonderful career with her tours, has gotten more prestigious awards, her family has grown and she seems very happy living in the present.

Good. It seems that all the former Supremes who still want to work are doing okay. So, let it be. Let's just enjoy them while they are still out there entertaining us.

By the way, did anyone else pre-order this book , or remember when it was being talked about? I have not heard a reference to it in years.

Makes me wonder if I am already senile and just imagining it in my mind :[[

[reese]

I remember pre-ordering an autobiography by Diana Ross around 2002 called "Upside Down [[........)" Can't remember the full title of the book. It stayed on pre-order for quite a long time, and then was cancelled.

If it was going to be Diana's tell-all book, she must have had second thoughts about releasing the book, and decided to go high when others went low. It was also at a low point of her life, and being negative usually only brings you lower.

Since then, she has had a wonderful career with her tours, has gotten more prestigious awards, her family has grown and she seems very happy living in the present.

Good. It seems that all the former Supremes who still want to work are doing okay. So, let it be. Let's just enjoy them while they are still out there entertaining us.

By the way, did anyone else pre-order this book , or remember when it was being talked about? I have not heard a reference to it in years.

Makes me wonder if I am already senile and just imagining it in my mind :[[

It was called "Upside Down: Wrong Turns, Right Turns, and the Road Ahead" or something like that.

I didn't pre-order it, but I definitely remember hearing about it. There was even an excerpt on line at one point. There was also supposed to be a revealing interview on the Fox channel.

[Jaap]

The "Upside Down" book was announced in 2003, after the DUI. Billboard reported:
<<Veteran singer Diana Ross is writing a memoir that will offer "a tough look at the recent heartaches in her life," including her drunken driving arrest, the breakup of her marriage, and her disastrous Supremes reunion tour. "Upside Down: Wrong Turns, Right Turns and the Road Ahead" is scheduled for release this spring from ReganBooks, an imprint of HarperCollins Publishers. "What readers will discover in this moving memoir is that no one is immune from the pain of loneliness, abandonment, divorce, and all of the losses and challenges we each face in our lives," ReganBooks publisher Judith Regan said in a statement. Financial terms were not disclosed. In addition, Ross has also agreed to a one-hour interview, scheduled to air in May on the Fox Television Network. Ross was arrested Dec. 30 in Tucson, Ariz., for investigation of driving under the influence and extreme DUI, a charge that can carry greater penalties than a regular DUI. A breath test showed the pop diva had a blood-alcohol reading of 0.20, more than twice Arizona's legal limit of 0.08.>>

http://www.billboard.com/articles/news/71760/diana-ross-writing-heartaches-memoir

One website even published an excerpt [[don't know whether the excerpt was real or not):
<<I really tried to be strong about the divorce. I took the boys to visit Arne and his new love and their baby, and I even planned a divorce ceremony so that the kids would know that our relationship had ended on a good note. I spoke at the ceremony about the good things that had come into my life since I met Arne, and about how much I loved him and the children. Later on, I realized that I was really denying myself the time to grieve over losing his love. I denied the hurt and tried to rise above it. But one day, I realized I still needed to heal. I wanted to be left alone. Many people encouraged me to go back to work, but my heart said, "Stay in bed." >>
http://www.powells.com/book/upside-down-9780060571818

Not sure if it would have been an interesting book; but good for her not to go through with it.

[Roberta75]

That’s not an “or.” High road or not, a lie is a lie.

In your opinion. I still think Diane may have been caught of guard or was protecting Cindy cause if she had said Cindys real ill it would have prompted more questions so Im not judging her on this.

[PeaceNHarmony]

In your opinion. I still think Diane may have been caught of guard or was protecting Cindy cause if she had said Cindys real ill it would have prompted more questions so Im not judging her on this.
As you know from your meeting with Ross, Ms. Roberta, she is a guarded and gracious lady who does not profit from pouring 't' about anyone for the yowling masses, and even less about any Supreme or fellow Motowner. I hope you are well in these stressful times.

[Bluebrock]

As you know from your meeting with Ross, Ms. Roberta, she is a guarded and gracious lady who does not profit from pouring 't' about anyone for the yowling masses, and even less about any Supreme or fellow Motowner. I hope you are well in these stressful times.
Diana is the most private celebrity i have ever met. She hates questions about her private life and hates being caught off guard, and she would never willingly discuss Cindy or Flo in public. Unlike certain others i could mention here. Her behind the scenes charity work is kept firmly behind closed doors and are handled with the utmost discretion, and that is how it should be.

[PeaceNHarmony]

Diana is the most private celebrity i have ever met. She hates questions about her private life and hates being caught off guard, and she would never willingly discuss Cindy or Flo in public. Unlike certain others i could mention here. Her behind the scenes charity work is kept firmly behind closed doors and are handled with the utmost discretion, and that is how it should be.
Absolutely, though of course it's a personal, individual's choice. I'm sure that's why Diana chose to cancel the book 'Upside Down' [[still having young children at the time). I think of the decades of TV interviews wherein Ross chose never to reveal sex positions [[hi, Oprah ...), romances, charity causes, etc. I think Diana's basically introverted desire for privacy sometimes gets interpreted as coldness and/or rudeness when really [[like Jacqueline Kennedy-Onassis and some other admirable celebs) there are times when she just wants to go about her own life.

[Circa 1824]

It was called "Upside Down: Wrong Turns, Right Turns, and the Road Ahead" or something like that.

I didn't pre-order it, but I definitely remember hearing about it. There was even an excerpt on line at one point. There was also supposed to be a revealing interview on the Fox channel.
.......

My memory is that Diana was given a hefty advance with the understanding she would tell the whole story, nitty gritty and all. When she submitted the text to the publishers, it was another fluff piece and they rejected it, and she gave back the advance payment.

Has it ever been explained why the first fluff piece was never released in paperback? Very very very unusual in publishing.

[Boogiedown]

Nice reply Ran! Some thoughts:


According to Florence, they spent most of the time talking about motherhood, so I don't think her stepping back into a musical career was the reason for the call. Interesting note: a researcher named Rick B [[can't remember how to spell his last name) MANY years ago, he said that Diana actually offered Flo the use of her home when and if she decided to come to LA to jump start her career. [[but no offer to do a jump starter appearance on her next project or to call Berry Gordy?) this is true, I think it also says a lot about Diana's feelings for Flo, again, after everything that had gone down between them. Keep in mind that Diana is also said to have attempted to save Florence's home before she lost it, and of course we know that for many years Diana kept in touch with and did things for Flo's children. So there was definitely something more between these two women than the normal "we use to work together" feelings. For all the talk about former colleagues, how many of you all have done these things for someone you once worked with? [[but then how many of us make Diana's kind of money and have her kind of resources ?:p)

Btw, Flo has never struck me as the kind of person who answers a question like "whatcha got going on" with anything other than the truth. If she wasn't interested in singing I don't think she would've mentioned her plans. [[saying you're "interested" could mean many degrees of seriousness , saying you're seriously interested and then doing something about it is an entirely different thing.)



Lol Oversimplification of a fix, for sure. However, again I must stress that I use real life experience when I'm dissecting the Supremes story, because they are, ya know, real people. [[I think that is forgotten sometimes, believe it or not.) And there are people that I know personally who have personalities or mindsets that give them a commanding presence. [[Is that how Flo commanded herself to so many leads on Supremes songs?? :p)They have the ability to operate within a relationship that keeps everyone in line [[including wife- beating husbands? ). Flo is said to have had a mothering type of presence at times, and that was when she was in her 20s and hadn't even had children yet. I can only imagine how much more of that instinct she received after becoming a real mother. [[I'm having a hard time imagining either Diana or Mary seeking her profound motherliness!:p) I think she had it in her to potentially keep her singing partners' egos in check had she lived and grown more. [[I don't see how, Diana was already far beyond being another Supreme , completely independent, as a movie star and a top tier recording solo artist.)

Remember, at this point in her life [[75/76) Flo was already maturely taking responsibility for her role in the end of the original Supremes. [[interesting. I don't know about this. Are there more details ?) That is something I still haven't heard Diana do in her 70s. [[I don't quite follow , how does Diana not take responsibility, or rather take responsibility for what ? From the get-go , she was the one that wanted out , she wanted to go solo. It all went as she wanted and successfully , so why would she have regrets?) Mary willingly states the part that she played but IMO still doesn't accept the fact that what she did was some bullshit. Just a bunch of excuses. [[I do understand her excuses though and I'm certainly not holding it against her.) As I said before, Flo seemed to be maturing in a way that her singing partners hadn't yet done, and I think had she continued to live, her presence would have had a positive effect on the original Supremes going forward. [[Not sure what going forward means , you mean a reforming of the group ? The miraculous work of Saint Flo for sure !!:p)



Very possible. There's a chance that if the three women didn't have a sit down to talk about [[as Diana once put it) "the heart", all the old issues would've crept back up. Personally I believe that was the problem with Motown 25. Mary had issues that had never been dealt with and as a result, she was paranoid about being just another one of Diana's backup singers at their reunion and she acted unprofessionally during the taping, which resulted in Diana also acting unprofessionally. [[Not that I'm blaming Mary for Diana's behavior. Diana was grown enough to know how to deal with that without acting like a child.) And we know how things just went downhill from there. Who knows, maybe if Flo had been there, a couple of bitches might have ended up on the floor. How's that for a headline the next day? Lol [[lol) But somehow I don't think that would have been the case.



Diana mature in 1975? Who you kiddin?? LOL [[ oh don't let her ability to play a pre-teen Dorothy fool you! :p and , if Flo were more mature then because of her motherly status , I think Diana had the same number of kids at that time too.) But in truth, no one here can say with certainty what was going on in any of the women's minds, unless we consulted them. And in Flo's case that's impossible. I just use my brain to deduce the probability based on the information I do have, the same way people who write about Abe Lincoln or Martin Luther King arrive at potential scenarios based on research. I stand behind my original comments: Flo very likely would have kept the ship righted [[what ship?:confused:) had she lived. And there would have been no Dreamgirl book to really nail the coffin shut. [[I've always felt that if Flo lived Mary wouldn't have had the balls to write the book. The book sold on the strength of Diana dirt and Flo's tragic story.) [[in the end though, its a very worthwhile book)



That's the beautiful thing. I'm glad they had that moment. [[yes at least there's that brief moment of relief in this twisted story)

:cool::cool:

[Boogiedown]

Does anyone know where Cindy Birdsong is??:confused::confused:

Diana Ross is looking but can't find her and is asking if anybody knows where she is !!:eek:

[jobeterob]

Does anyone know where Cindy Birdsong is??:confused::confused:

Diana Ross is looking but can't find her and is asking if anybody knows where she is !!:eek:

Is the consensus that she knows, has provided her assistance, and politely would not answer the question.

Even fans that seem to know don't want to say what is actually wrong with Cindy and why she has disappeared from public view.

[bradsupremes]

Is the consensus that she knows, has provided her assistance, and politely would not answer the question.

Yes, that’s exactly what happened.

I think people forget that despite the fact none of these ladies are buddies anymore, they know how to get a hold of the other. When emergencies have happened they are on the phone calling the other. They still love and care for each other even if the friendship isn’t there anymore.

[daviddh]

Diana knows where Cindy is.

[RanRan79]

Boogie I kinda like how you replied to my post, so I'm going to respond in kind because it seems a little easier than the way I normally do it when replying piece by piece. My responses in blue.


[[but no offer to do a jump starter appearance on her next project or to call Berry Gordy?)

I would think this an unlikely offer considering that everybody in the mix knew there was no love lost between Flo and Gordy. Diana was in no position to offer anything other than a place to stay if Flo chose to take her up on that offer.

[[but then how many of us make Diana's kind of money and have her kind of resources ?)

Not very many. But is it still standard practice among the wealthy to help out former colleagues they have no affection for? I don't think so. For all the negative talk people like to do about Diana, she is very generous when approached for help. Interestingly, Diana trying to save Flo's home and Diana keeping up with Flo's children, these things are never said to have been accompanied by Florence or anyone acting on Flo's behalf asking Diana to do anything. My spidey senses say there was real affection there. Diana isn't the Ice Queen she's made out to be.

[[saying you're "interested" could mean many degrees of seriousness , saying you're seriously interested and then doing something about it is an entirely different thing.)

Agreed, but I think Diana's quote is that Flo said she was ready to get back into singing. Jack Ashford has said that he and Flo spoke about getting together to do something. And of course there was her last public performance some six or so months before her death. As I've said in a previous thread, it's hard for singers who have been at the top to let it go. I bet Flo did her last performance and remembered more than anything where her place [[other than motherhood) was at.

[[Is that how Flo commanded herself to so many leads on Supremes songs?? )

Yes, that's exactly how she did it.:p

[[including wife- beating husbands? ).

I found this to be a rather low blow. I'm going to assume your comment is born out of ignorance regarding domestic abuse and who it happens to. Sadly, just about every kind of person you can think of can end up in an abusive relationship. That's a sad fact. I won't participate in any discussion where any physical abuse perpetrated on Flo is used as commentary against her.

[[I'm having a hard time imagining either Diana or Mary seeking her profound motherliness!)

Believe it or not, there was that time in Boston when Diana had her breakdown. According to witnesses it was Florence who took care of Diana, exhibiting that maternal instinct. This shouldn't be a far out thought considering that Flo is said to have been her mother's helper when it came to her siblings. If you know anything about big families [[as I do, coming from a HUGE one myself), a lot of times the girls who were charged with "motherly" duties for siblings are often very maternal. Flo would not be odd in this.

[[I don't see how, Diana was already far beyond being another Supreme , completely independent, as a movie star and a top tier recording solo artist.)

But that's the question, isn't it? Could Flo have reigned in Miss Ross? I think Flo would have had no problem keeping Mary in line, but Diana was DIANA. So would Flo have had it in her in the 1980s to be the piece that allowed the original Supremes to come together for projects and performances now and again? Again my answer is "I think so", but unfortunately we'll never know.

[[interesting. I don't know about this. Are there more details ?)

Flo said she felt she messed up in the past. She said a lot of things she shouldn't have said. She handled the situation poorly, she said. And I agree. I get it, she was in her early 20s. Look at the kinds of things people in their early 20s are doing now. Hell, I shudder at some of my own decisions when I was that young. Shit happens. You learn, you mature, you grow up. But she definitely handled that situation in the worst possible way and she knew it.

[[I don't quite follow , how does Diana not take responsibility, or rather take responsibility for what ? From the get-go , she was the one that wanted out , she wanted to go solo. It all went as she wanted and successfully , so why would she have regrets?)

Ah yes. Gotta love the ever popular mentality "I hurt some folks but I got what I wanted. Screw 'em." :rolleyes: For me to go in on Diana's part in the breakup of the original Supremes would be a bit much in this post. But in short, I am of the opinion that Diana did some bullshit not to just get her goal of going solo but because she was a selfish 20 something year old girl. She was no different than any other selfish 20 something. But she definitely had a role in the disintegration of the force that was the original Supremes. And she knows it. At least I believe she knows it. LOL

[[Not sure what going forward means , you mean a reforming of the group ? The miraculous work of Saint Flo for sure !!)

Yeah, reforming the group like the Temptations did for a project. There's no reason why the Supremes with Flo and Diana couldn't have had a reunion album and I don't think it would have taken a saintly act to do it.

[[ oh don't let her ability to play a pre-teen Dorothy fool you! and , if Flo were more mature then because of her motherly status , I think Diana had the same number of kids at that time too.)

Yeah, but Diana was smacking the shit out of Gordy on movie sets because she couldn't have her way. Very mature. Not!

[[in the end though, its a very worthwhile book)

Oh don't get me wrong. Mary's first book is- IMO- the definitive insider look at the Supremes. It's what I source first for the group's history, especially the Primettes days. And it's a helluva read. I'm not knocking Mary's right to tell her view of things either. What I'm suggesting is that there wouldn't have been a book if Mary couldn't capitalize off of Flo's story. Mean Diana doesn't look quite as mean when the narrative doesn't end with one of the people she was mean to dying off. Also I suspect the Motown 25 debacle fueled Mary's desire to write the book to at least a small extent. And it's been my supposition from the jump that had Flo been at the reunion it wouldn't have gone down like that, and thus nothing for Mary and Diana to feud about, resulting in a "tell all".

[[yes at least there's that brief moment of relief in this twisted story)

Personally I don't think the story is so twisted. I think we fans make it twisted by making these three women supernatural. They aren't allowed to be human, flawed. They can't react like the rest of us do. They can't feel like the rest of us do. And they can't have ups and downs with one another like the rest of us do in some of our own relationships. In reality the Supremes story is just every day life for many people. The girls just happened to be household names with famous faces and voices.



Nice reply Ran!

Thanks Boogie. I appreciate our back and forth, whether we agree or not. I don't need anyone to agree with me, as long as they respectfully disagree, and you do that well. [[As I hope I do also.) I wish everyone in this forum would disagree so pleasantly.:)

[PeaceNHarmony]

Is the consensus that she knows, has provided her assistance, and politely would not answer the question.

Even fans that seem to know don't want to say what is actually wrong with Cindy and why she has disappeared from public view.
Yes. Because there are situations that families do not wish to exploit. 2-3 years ago there was a bit of an outreach to provide assistance [[including here, where it was largely shot down). True fans and industry peeps [[predominantly Diana Ross, it is said) came through.

[PeaceNHarmony]

Diana knows where Cindy is.
... and is professional enough, sophisticated enough, and empathetic enough to know that it's none of our f*!kin' business. Rock on, Ms. Ross.

[Boogiedown]

hi Ran! thanks for your thoughtful and quick response! I don't have time to do so in kind , but would like to continue if you are so inclined. Please give me a couple of days .* :)


... and is professional enough, sophisticated enough, and empathetic enough to know that it's none of our f*!kin' business. Rock on, Ms. Ross.

LOL !!!!!
I'm just imagining Diana during that audience participation segment in which people are invited to ask her unfielded questions,
when the person innocently asks whether she keeps in touch with any of the Supremes , Diana's face turns a brilliant red :mad:, her fiery hair extends out twice its already exaggerated length , and with eyes intensely glaring, she shrieks back , "Do I keep in touch???? --- Do I keep in touch with any of the old Supremes you dare to ask???? --- IT'S NONE OF YOUR F*!CKIN' BUSINESS!!!!!!!!!!!"

....LOL!!!!!!

then after catching her breath and her appearance returning to normal, she says, "Now , will somebody ask me some real questions, like who makes my terrific gowns, or how does my voice keep sounding better every year?"

Well , better that I say , than the apparent fake news she so professionally and sophisticatedly responded with.
LOL!!!!!

* if this thread doesn't sadly get deleted before then as I'm sensing it might be headed there :[[

[Bluebrock]

Cindy's family wish to keep details of her illness private, and we have to respect that wish. She is receiving more than adequate financial help for which her family are very grateful.

[RanRan79]

hi Ran! thanks for your thoughtful and quick response! I don't have time to do so in kind , but would like to continue if you are so inclined. Please give me a couple of days .* :)

Respond when you can Boogie. I'm going to enjoy the break from the rain this weekend, but I'll be around when the week starts up again.


LOL !!!!!
I'm just imagining Diana during that audience participation segment in which people are invited to ask her unfielded questions,
when the person innocently asks whether she keeps in touch with any of the Supremes , Diana's face turns a brilliant red :mad:, her fiery hair extends out twice its already exaggerated length , and with eyes intensely glaring, she shrieks back , "Do I keep in touch???? --- Do I keep in touch with any of the old Supremes you dare to ask???? --- IT'S NONE OF YOUR F*!CKIN' BUSINESS!!!!!!!!!!!"

....LOL!!!!!!

then after catching her breath and her appearance returning to normal, she says, "Now , will somebody ask me some real questions, like who makes my terrific gowns, or how does my voice keep sounding better every year?"

Well , better that I say , than the apparent fake news she so professionally and sophisticatedly responded with.
LOL!!!!!

* if this thread doesn't sadly get deleted before then as I'm sensing it might be headed there :[[

Love Diana like I do, but she can at times be disingenuous with her responses about things, especially where the Supremes are concerned. It's one of the things that ticks me off about her. To be so no nonsense I'll never understand why she just doesn't tell it like it is. But about Cindy, I'm going to believe Diana. If she says she doesn't know where Cindy is, she doesn't know. Maybe she knew a couple years ago when Cindy first fell ill. Maybe she knew then and she helped. But it looks like as of 2017 Diana doesn't know where Cindy is, per her own words. I'm not sure why people refuse to believe her. Lol I thought at the very least she was lying about not being able to find Cindy if she's looking for her. As a researcher I know there are tons of ways to find a person, especially if you have money at your disposal. But depending on how ill Cindy is and the nature of it and how she's being cared for, Diana may not be able to track her down if she's been relocated since their last contact. I'm going to take Diana's word over the SD forum gang. She doesn't know where Cindy is and she's smart enough to give an impromptu answer to the question without divulging any of Cindy's personal business, if she does know where she is.

[PeaceNHarmony]

Cindy's family wish to keep details of her illness private, and we have to respect that wish. She is receiving more than adequate financial help for which her family are very grateful.
Great, great news. Thanks for relaying.

[jobeterob]

I don't know any Supremes or hardly anyone on the Forum, never lived in Detroit or any of that - listening as I've listened about Cindy for a long time now, I would believe that she is suffering from alzheimers or dementia and she is a private person who's public persona is from many years ago - and they don't want to be public about that.

It's a tough disease and many people choose to be quiet about it.

And if it's something else, it is something else.

I'm always a little surprised about the great reluctance to say anything, to be frank - but as always, many people seem to say they know and are not to tell.

[Boogiedown]

I don't know any Supremes or hardly anyone on the Forum, never lived in Detroit or any of that - listening as I've listened about Cindy for a long time now, I would believe that she is suffering from alzheimers or dementia and she is a private person who's public persona is from many years ago - and they don't want to be public about that.

It's a tough disease and many people choose to be quiet about it.

And if it's something else, it is something else.

I'm always a little surprised about the great reluctance to say anything, to be frank - but as always, many people seem to say they know and are not to tell.

I'm with you on this . I'm not sure what all the top secret whispering is about. Since when is it a crime to become ill? [[Of which I haven't seen any confirmation of this even being the case.)


ranran79
Love Diana like I do, but she can at times be disingenuous with her responses about things, especially where the Supremes are concerned. It's one of the things that ticks me off about her. To be so no nonsense I'll never understand why she just doesn't tell it like it is. But about Cindy, I'm going to believe Diana. If she says she doesn't know where Cindy is, she doesn't know. Maybe she knew a couple years ago when Cindy first fell ill. Maybe she knew then and she helped. But it looks like as of 2017 Diana doesn't know where Cindy is, per her own words. I'm not sure why people refuse to believe her. Lol I thought at the very least she was lying about not being able to find Cindy if she's looking for her. As a researcher I know there are tons of ways to find a person, especially if you have money at your disposal. But depending on how ill Cindy is and the nature of it and how she's being cared for, Diana may not be able to track her down if she's been relocated since their last contact. I'm going to take Diana's word over the SD forum gang. She doesn't know where Cindy is and she's smart enough to give an impromptu answer to the question without divulging any of Cindy's personal business, if she does know where she is.

And I'm with you. I'm perfectly capable of watching Diana, listen to her in her own words, and then either believe what I'm hearing directly from the horses mouth, or conclude instead that Diana Ross is standing there lying as many here are suggesting .

To quote:

"I tried looking for Cindy Birdsong. I wasn't able to find her. If anybody knows where she is is?? But I was not able to find her."

That doesn't sound like someone who's too concerned or who's trying to word things in a way to paint a pretty picture over a bad situation . It simply sounds like someone giving a real answer about a situation of which they don't care much.

This is immediately followed with,

"And I don't know, I never stay in touch with Mary Wilson. She may be in the audience as far as I know." [[Waves her arm)

So when it comes to Cindy's whereabouts , Diana's asking if anybody there knows where Cindy is, then when it comes to Mary's whereabouts Diana suggests that Mary might even be in that very room , the entire tone of the exchange strikes me as rather flippant .
imo.

[Boogiedown]

Hi Ran ! I'm red , then you're black, then I'm blue! good luck!

Originally Posted by Boogiedown [[but no offer to do a jump starter appearance on her next project or to call Berry Gordy?)

I would think this an unlikely offer considering that everybody in the mix knew there was no love lost between Flo and Gordy. Diana was in no position to offer anything other than a place to stay if Flo chose to take her up on that offer. OK , but I’m sure Diana had more than a sleep on the couch to offer. She now had years of LA exposure / interactions.

[[but then how many of us make Diana's kind of money and have her kind of resources ?)

Not very many. But is it still standard practice among the wealthy to help out former colleagues they have no affection for? I don't think so. For all the negative talk people like to do about Diana, she is very generous when approached for help. Interestingly, Diana trying to save Flo's home “try” - how did that fail exactly? and Diana keeping up with Flo's children, these things are never said to have been accompanied by Florence or anyone acting on Flo's behalf asking Diana to do anything. My spidey senses say there was real affection there. Diana isn't the Ice Queen she's made out to be.

[[saying you're "interested" could mean many degrees of seriousness , saying you're seriously interested and then doing something about it is an entirely different thing.)

Agreed, but I think Diana's quote is that Flo said she was ready to get back into singing. Jack Ashford has said that he and Flo spoke about getting together to do something. And of course there was her last public performance some six or so months before her death. Performing once and then doing nothing more as eight months pass , I’m going to give that effort an “interested” with a small "i".
As I've said in a previous thread, it's hard for singers who have been at the top to let it go. I bet Flo did her last performance and remembered more than anything where her place [[other than motherhood) was at. Yes

[[Is that how Flo commanded herself to so many leads on Supremes songs?? )

Yes, that's exactly how she did it. HA

[[including wife- beating husbands? ).

I found this to be a rather low blow. I'm going to assume your comment is born out of ignorance regarding domestic abuse and who it happens to. Sadly, just about every kind of person you can think of can end up in an abusive relationship. That's a sad fact. I won't participate in any discussion where any physical abuse perpetrated on Flo is used as commentary against her. Its not a commentary against Flo . My answer was in regards to “having the ability to operate within a relationship that keeps everyone in line.” When it came to her husband , apparently not .


[[I'm having a hard time imagining either Diana or Mary seeking her profound motherliness!)

Believe it or not, there was that time in Boston when Diana had her breakdown. According to witnesses it was Florence who took care of Diana, exhibiting that maternal instinct. This shouldn't be a far out thought considering that Flo is said to have been her mother's helper when it came to her siblings. If you know anything about big families [[as I do, coming from a HUGE one myself), a lot of times the girls who were charged with "motherly" duties for siblings are often very maternal. Flo would not be odd in this.Fine , but again I’m saying Mary and Diana would not likely be seeking Flo’s motherliness at this stage of the game.

[[I don't see how, Diana was already far beyond being another Supreme , completely independent, as a movie star and a top tier recording solo artist.)

But that's the question, isn't it? Could Flo have reigned in Miss Ross? NO. I think Flo would have had no problem keeping Mary in line, but Diana was DIANA. So would Flo have had it in her in the 1980s to be the piece that allowed the original Supremes to come together for projects and performances now and again? Again my answer is "I think so", but unfortunately we'll never know. Imo Diana would not be interested. It would be going backwards for her , she's maintained that notion and distanced herself from anything Supremes , a stance I think she'd hold steadfast to, Flo or no Flo.

[[interesting. I don't know about this. Are there more details ?)

Flo said she felt she messed up in the past. Such as? She said a lot of things she shouldn't have said. Such as? She handled the situation poorly, she said. Meaning? And I agree. I get it, she was in her early 20s. Look at the kinds of things people in their early 20s are doing now. Hell, I shudder at some of my own decisions when I was that young. Shit happens. You learn, you mature, you grow up. But she definitely handled that situation in the worst possible way and she knew it. Well there you have it.

[[I don't quite follow , how does Diana not take responsibility, or rather take responsibility for what ? From the get-go , she was the one that wanted out , she wanted to go solo. It all went as she wanted and successfully , so why would she have regrets?)

Ah yes. Gotta love the ever popular mentality "I hurt some folks but I got what I wanted. Screw 'em." Ha !--- But how did people get screwed ? Cindy and Mary got to go on being Supremes [[successfully) while Diana got to go on to do her thing. For me to go in on Diana's part in the breakup of the original Supremes would be a bit much in this post. But in short, I am of the opinion that Diana did some bullshit ? not to just get her goal of going solo but because she was a selfish 20 something year old girl. She was no different than any other selfish 20 something. But she definitely had a role in the disintegration of the force that was the original Supremes. And she knows it. At least I believe she knows it. LOL OK but I think you are making this whole Supremes thing sound a bit sacred. They weren’t joined at the hip , they didn’t make a pact to stay together into their eighties [[as far as I know) , they weren’t even family. Hell even the Jackson brothers split at some point!

[[Not sure what going forward means , you mean a reforming of the group ? The miraculous work of Saint Flo for sure !!)

Yeah, reforming the group like the Temptations did for a project. There's no reason why the Supremes with Flo and Diana couldn't have had a reunion album and I don't think it would have taken a saintly act to do it. Weren’t Eddie and David and the rest pretty desperate at this point? Diana never was.

[[ oh don't let her ability to play a pre-teen Dorothy fool you! and , if Flo were more mature then because of her motherly status , I think Diana had the same number of kids at that time too.)

Yeah, but Diana was smacking the shit out of Gordy on movie sets because she couldn't have her way. Very mature. Not! Ha! True!
And meanwhile Flo was reuniting with an abusive husband . I know you are squeamish about that , but nonetheless , I don’t consider that move on her part to be evidence of maturing.

[[in the end though, its a very worthwhile book)

Oh don't get me wrong. Mary's first book is- IMO- the definitive insider look at the Supremes. It's what I source first for the group's history, especially the Primettes days. And it's a helluva read. I'm not knocking Mary's right to tell her view of things either. What I'm suggesting is that there wouldn't have been a book if Mary couldn't capitalize off of Flo's story. Mean Diana doesn't look quite as mean when the narrative doesn't end with one of the people she was mean to dying off. Also I suspect the Motown 25 debacle fueled Mary's desire to write the book to at least a small extent. And it's been my supposition from the jump that had Flo been at the reunion it wouldn't have gone down like that, and thus nothing for Mary and Diana to feud about, resulting in a "tell all".

[[yes at least there's that brief moment of relief in this twisted story)

Personally I don't think the story is so twisted. I think we fans make it twisted by making these three women supernatural. They aren't allowed to be human, flawed. They can't react like the rest of us do. They can't feel like the rest of us do. And they can't have ups and downs with one another like the rest of us do in some of our own relationships. Of course they can !! That’s what makes the twists!! In reality the Supremes story is just every day life for many people. oh , poo!:pThe girls just happened to be household names with famous faces and voices. And therein's the rub!

Originally Posted by Boogiedown Nice reply Ran! Thanks Boogie. I appreciate our back and forth, whether we agree or not. I don't need anyone to agree with me, me neither! as long as they respectfully disagree, and you do that well. Thank you, there is an effort , but its surprising to me how so much can get lost in the translation! [[As I hope I do also.) so far so good! I wish everyone in this forum would disagree so pleasantly.:cool:

:cool:

[TomatoTom123]

RanRan and Boogie: your respectful, reasonable and rational posts don’t belong in a forum like this. Can you take them somewhere else please before something bad happens?

[imakicola]

You know, I do love Mary. I found what she did with her book in poor taste frankly, but she has every right to publish her side of things...and make money doing so. And I’m glad we have it to read! I do find it interesting though that Mary threads dominate this forum so much haha

[blackguy69]

You know, I do love Mary. I found what she did with her book in poor taste frankly, but she has every right to publish her side of things...and make money doing so. And I’m glad we have it to read! I do find it interesting though that Mary threads dominate this forum so much haha
Supremes/Diana/Mary threads are the dominant on this site lol

[Jimi LaLumia]

The Supremes were Motown's 'Beatles', so they should dominate this site!

[jobeterob]

The Supremes were Motown's 'Beatles', so they should dominate this site!

Exactly and even more than just Motown's

And that's when you get controversy and favorites and why it matters if an Andante filled in for a line or two

And why people talk about a 10 second comment made 53 years ago

[RanRan79]

Alright Boogie, you're in black, I'm in blue.

"OK , but I’m sure Diana had more than a sleep on the couch to offer. She now had years of LA exposure / interactions."

Could be. That part of the conversation isn't known [[outside of the parties involved). I just can't imagine Diana being tight with any of the movers and shakers in the business outside of Motown at that point, so I'd be surprised that this was something she could offer. But it's definitely possible.

“try” - how did that fail exactly?"

Mystery surrounds this. We covered it in a recent thread but the thread was deleted. The story goes that Diana heard about Flo's inability to pay the mortgage, found out how much was owed, and wrote a check to cover it. Diana wanted to go through Flo to take care of this but somehow Tommy got in the way and wanted Diana to deal with him, which of course she refused to do. As a result, so the story goes, Diana was unable to save Flo's home. According to Flo's sister Maxine, Diana made attempts to contact Florence but Flo refused to take Diana's calls. According to Flo's words about Diana not helping her, it appears that she was unaware of Diana offering assistance. I have questions about some of this, particularly the role Tommy is said to have played, which makes no sense. It's a mystery.

"Performing once and then doing nothing more as eight months pass , I’m going to give that effort an “interested” with a small "i"."

And that might be accurate if Florence was 18 with no obligations. How easy do you think it is to jumpstart a singing career with three small children? Nothing about her suggests she was the type of mother who would have thrown caution to the wind and went out chasing record deals and club appearances without making sure she had a firm foundation for her children. Not to mention she was still trying to recover from the down years [[lack of singing, weight gain, psychology) and deal with the lawsuit settlement which finally allowed her to get off assistance and make a new home for her children. I think she did enough to perform and then reconnect with former Motown buddies Diana Ross and Jack Ashford. Had she not died a few months later, who knows what she would have gone on to do. But a singing career doesn't happen overnight, not even when making a comeback.

"Its not a commentary against Flo . My answer was in regards to “having the ability to operate within a relationship that keeps everyone in line.” When it came to her husband , apparently not ."

No one can be all things to all people all the time. Maybe Tommy was her Kryptonite? Everyone has one.

"Fine , but again I’m saying Mary and Diana would not likely be seeking Flo’s motherliness at this stage of the game."

Agreed, but if you know "motherliness" the way I know it, you don't have to seek it out to get it. Florence doesn't strike me as the type of person who waits to be asked her thoughts. Lol

"Imo Diana would not be interested. It would be going backwards for her , she's maintained that notion and distanced herself from anything Supremes , a stance I think she'd hold steadfast to, Flo or no Flo."

Good point, but at some point that's exactly what she did, which is how we got the RTL debacle.

"But how did people get screwed ? Cindy and Mary got to go on being Supremes [[successfully) while Diana got to go on to do her thing."

I posted my thoughts in a thread about where blame lay in the Supremes breakup sometime ago. I don't think I could reproduce my words any better now than I did then. So I'm going to search for that thread and if found [[I don't think it was one of the ones deleted) I'll post the link in this thread for your reading pleasure and to get your thoughts. Stay tuned.

"OK but I think you are making this whole Supremes thing sound a bit sacred. They weren’t joined at the hip , they didn’t make a pact to stay together into their eighties [[as far as I know) , they weren’t even family. Hell even the Jackson brothers split at some point!"

See my previous reply.;)

"Weren’t Eddie and David and the rest pretty desperate at this point? Diana never was. "

True, but I wouldn't rule out Diana being "talked" into it. [[As much as Ross could be talked into anything. Lol)

"And meanwhile Flo was reuniting with an abusive husband . I know you are squeamish about that , but nonetheless , I don’t consider that move on her part to be evidence of maturing. "

Right, because once one matures, every decision that is made is always good and mature? If that's been your experience, how blessed you are. I consider myself mature at 30something, but admittedly I make poor decisions every now and again, especially when I allow my feelings to overrule my good sense.

"Thank you, there is an effort , but its surprising to me how so much can get lost in the translation!"

But that's communication, and it's also where maturity comes into play. We write something and it's interpreted in a different way. It's good when the parties can go back and forth in understanding, as opposed to going back and forth in confusion and insults and negativity. This forum would run much more smoothly if people communicated more effectively.

[RanRan79]

RanRan and Boogie: your respectful, reasonable and rational posts don’t belong in a forum like this. Can you take them somewhere else please before something bad happens?

Ha!!!!!!!!!:D

[RanRan79]

The Supremes were the biggest thing to happen to Motown, that's why I don't understand the criticism by some in other threads [[not this one) about why the group and it's individual singers dominate conversations around here. It's like someone complaining about Elvis dominating an RCA forum. Some folks just like to complain.

[RanRan79]

Boogie, I found the thread. Here's the portion where I give you some idea about my thoughts on what went wrong with this group. It was in reply to something someone else had said, so keep that in mind if there are parts that don't quite make sense on their own. The bold faced red parts is my general way of answering your question of- and I'm paraphrasing- "what part did Diana play in the breakup of the group".

"The world is a rough place. And don't forget, all of these people were so very young. I'll admit that I can be a bit hard on Berry Gordy because he was the head man in charge and he was- relatively speaking- considerably older than the Supremes, so in my mind I often feel like he should have known better than say certain things, do certain things, react in certain ways, etc. But in actuality Gordy was a very young man in his 30s when all of this drama was taking place. None of the Supremes were really equipped to deal with the reality that their fame became, and quite often that's attributed to their impoverished background and parents who were, more or less, not very worldly. But Gordy was in a similar boat in the sense that he was in uncharted territory for a Black man at that time. The stress on the girls was one thing, but I've never really contemplated what the stress may have been like for Berry. Now this is no excuse for what I do believe were his chauvinistic mind games that he often played with the three girls, Florence in particular. But keeping his age in mind might also explain how immature some of his antics were [["I agree with Diane, you're fat Flo"...wtf kind of school yard crap is that?).

Being rational definitely wasn't in the picture. Rational would have been Gordy figuring out how to make Diana "the greatest star" without alienating Flo and Mary or attempting to diminish their roles in the group. Rational would have been Florence understanding that she had a job to do and either she do what is asked or she find something else to do with her life. So often today major stars are ridiculed for not having real world values, but I find it a little interesting that Florence is given a pass that just about everyone on this forum [[who has a job) would be fired for if we went on our jobs with Flo's mentality.

Compassion most certainly wasn't involved. Compassion would have been Diana taking a moment to think about someone other than herself. Her mind was hellbent on being DIANA ROSS and doing whatever to get there that she didn't take a moment to wonder- until well after she left the group- what her special treatment was doing to her friends. She knew people were being required to address her as Miss, but not Flo and Mary. She knew she was being given her own dressing room, but not Flo and Mary. She knew she was going to interviews early so she could have solo time while Flo and Mary were arriving late. Compassion would have been Diana advocating for Flo and Mary. Instead she was often indifferent or at times, if Flo's story about the charity commercial filming is accurate, she actively worked against them."

[imakicola]

The Supremes were the biggest thing to happen to Motown, that's why I don't understand the criticism by some in other threads [[not this one) about why the group and it's individual singers dominate conversations around here. It's like someone complaining about Elvis dominating an RCA forum. Some folks just like to complain.

It actually wasn’t a criticism, nor a complaint. Try again!

[PeaceNHarmony]

Exactly and even more than just Motown's

And that's when you get controversy and favorites and why it matters if an Andante filled in for a line or two

And why people talk about a 10 second comment made 53 years ago
... and why nearly 60 years later a scant handful of 'fans' are still trying to make a star out of a random background singer who never had a hit ... :D

[RanRan79]

It actually wasn’t a criticism, nor a complaint. Try again!

Clearly I wasn't referring to you, hence the part of my post- which you reproduced- where I say "I don't understand the criticism by some in other threads [[not this one)". I took your original comment as an observation, not criticism or a complaint. I must question if your response to me is even a legit gripe or if your intention was to stir something up, in the wake of the comments about civility. If the latter, you try again. Have a good morning.

[blackguy69]

Clearly I wasn't referring to you, hence the part of my post- which you reproduced- where I say "I don't understand the criticism by some in other threads [[not this one)". I took your original comment as an observation, not criticism or a complaint. I must question if your response to me is even a legit gripe or if your intention was to stir something up, in the wake of the comments about civility. If the latter, you try again. Have a good morning.
I don't think he was starting something, but the comment above your comment is trying to start something

[thanxal]

The Supremes were the biggest thing to happen to Motown, that's why I don't understand the criticism by some in other threads [[not this one) about why the group and it's individual singers dominate conversations around here. It's like someone complaining about Elvis dominating an RCA forum. Some folks just like to complain.
I'll admit I've complained about it. And I'll continue to do so. For me it is because they almost always end up in nastiness and pettiness [[for instance, see below). It gets old and tiresome, as if there is little else to Motown than petty squabbles between Supremes fans.

[RanRan79]

but the comment above your comment is trying to start something

No surprises there. LOL

[RanRan79]

I'll admit I've complained about it. And I'll continue to do so. For me it is because they almost always end up in nastiness and pettiness [[for instance, see below). It gets old and tiresome, as if there is little else to Motown than petty squabbles between Supremes fans.

I get complaining about the arguments. You and I have sung in that choir together for quite some time now [[and we don't fight over who gets to take the lead!:p). But some of the complaints I've seen are about Supremes/Diana/Mary threads in general, and that makes no sense to me, as in the example I gave previously about Elvis. But it is sad that most threads about the group devolve into arguments about various Supremes, and usually it's the handful of same screennames that jump right into it.

[jobeterob]

You guys have had a great discussion.

I guess it has been determined that Mary did not attend the show incognito or otherwise? Nobody was sitting next to her?

[RanRan79]

You guys have had a great discussion.

I guess it has been determined that Mary did not attend the show incognito or otherwise? Nobody was sitting next to her?

Barring a future announcement from Mary or Diana, Rob it appears Mary never made it. The best news is Diana's engagement was successful and wasn't mired in controversy. Well aside from her comments about Cindy. Miss Ross is still knocking them dead.

[Boogiedown]

RanRan and Boogie: your respectful, reasonable and rational posts don’t belong in a forum like this. Can you take them somewhere else please before something bad happens?'

Ha !!!! thanks for that needed laugh Tom Tom ! By the way you [[or anyone else ) is welcomed to jump in if you have additional thoughts . Open forum! Ran Ran holds his own well , but maybe together we can get this guy to flinch!! :p:p



RanRan79 [[https://soulfuldetroit.com/member.php?7691-RanRan79)

https://soulfuldetroit.com/images/statusicon/user-offline.pngBarring a future announcement from Mary or Diana, Rob it appears Mary never made it. The best news is Diana's engagement was successful and wasn't mired in controversy. Well aside from her comments about Cindy. Miss Ross is still knocking them dead.


and I know you're not alluding to that "in the cellar" theory !! lol!!

[RanRan79]

'

Ha !!!! thanks for that needed laugh Tom Tom ! By the way you [[or anyone else ) is welcomed to jump in if you have additional thoughts . Open forum! Ran Ran holds his own well , but maybe together we can get this guy to flinch!!

Good luck with that!!:p


and I know you're not alluding to that "in the cellar" theory !! lol!!

LMAO...I even hate that I mentioned that bullshit. It was ridiculous when it entered whatever thread someone brought it up in and it will forever be ridiculous. The things people come up with around here because they hate Diana Ross and/or Mary Wilson. It's pathetic.

[Boogiedown]

Today's running theme "mature/maturity":


Alright Boogie, you're in black, I'm in blue. And now I'm red !!:cool:

"OK , but I’m sure Diana had more than a sleep on the couch to offer. She now had years of LA exposure / interactions."

Could be. That part of the conversation isn't known [[outside of the parties involved). I just can't imagine Diana being tight with any of the movers and shakers in the business outside of Motown at that point, so I'd be surprised that this was something she could offer. But it's definitely possible.
I'm now with you on this . It appears that Diana was pretty much spoon fed her career , so I don't imagine her working the Hollywood circuit that much . No need to. Her work was all done in house, and she couldn't very well show Flo around the LA Motown Headquarters. Hey maybe she at least promised to take her to IN N OUT :p
“try” - how did that fail exactly?"

Mystery surrounds this. We covered it in a recent thread but the thread was deleted. The story goes that Diana heard about Flo's inability to pay the mortgage, found out how much was owed, and wrote a check to cover it. Diana wanted to go through Flo to take care of this but somehow Tommy got in the way and wanted Diana to deal with him, which of course she refused to do. Why "of course"? Also, he and Flo are still together at this point, but they are losing the house . So , Tommy doesn't work? As a result, so the story goes, Diana was unable to save Flo's home. According to Flo's sister Maxine, Diana made attempts to contact Florence but Flo refused to take Diana's calls. Very odd. [[and not very mature:rolleyes:) Why not ?? According to Flo's words about Diana not helping her, it appears that she was unaware of Diana offering assistance. ??? I have questions about some of this, particularly the role Tommy is said to have played, which makes no sense. It's a mystery. I would say this claimed house saving effort [[while if true was quite mature on Diana's part) sounds about as halfhearted as Diana's current search for Cindy .

"Performing once and then doing nothing more as eight months pass , I’m going to give that effort an “interested” with a small "i"."

And that might be accurate if Florence was 18 with no obligations. How easy do you think it is to jumpstart a singing career with three small children? Well where's the help of that newly returned husband of hers? Nothing about her suggests she was the type of mother who would have thrown caution to the wind and went out chasing record deals and club appearances without making sure she had a firm foundation for her children. well , again, where's their newly returned father that Flo [[so maturely) took back. Not to mention she was still trying to recover from the down years [[lack of singing, weight gain, psychology) and deal with the lawsuit settlement which finally allowed her to get off assistance and make a new home for her children. and Mr Kryptonite . I think she did enough to perform wish we could view that !!! and then reconnect with former Motown buddies Diana Ross and Jack Ashford. Had she not died a few months later, who knows what she would have gone on to do. But a singing career doesn't happen overnight, not even when making a comeback. Doesn't seem like the cards were going to line up. Besides all the obstacles you've mentioned, she was going to be a mother for years and years yet. And she'd have to once again contend with that historically abusive husband [[ who seems to have heroically reentered the family picture when there was new found hope and new found money. Did this guy now have a job ?)

"Its not a commentary against Flo . My answer was in regards to “having the ability to operate within a relationship that keeps everyone in line.” When it came to her husband , apparently not ."

No one can be all things to all people all the time. Maybe Tommy was her Kryptonite? Everyone has one.

"Fine , but again I’m saying Mary and Diana would not likely be seeking Flo’s motherliness at this stage of the game."

Agreed, but if you know "motherliness" the way I know it, you don't have to seek it out to get it. Florence doesn't strike me as the type of person who waits to be asked her thoughts. Lol lol. But wouldn't the other two Supremes annoyedly tell her to buzz off. A bossy Flo doesn't strike me as a unifying component at this later juncture.

"Imo Diana would not be interested. It would be going backwards for her , she's maintained that notion and distanced herself from anything Supremes , a stance I think she'd hold steadfast to, Flo or no Flo."

Good point, but at some point that's exactly what she did, which is how we got the RTL debacle. A whole 'nother discussion eh !?

"But how did people get screwed ? Cindy and Mary got to go on being Supremes [[successfully) while Diana got to go on to do her thing."

I posted my thoughts in a thread about where blame lay in the Supremes breakup sometime ago. I don't think I could reproduce my words any better now than I did then. So I'm going to search for that thread and if found [[I don't think it was one of the ones deleted) I'll post the link in this thread for your reading pleasure and to get your thoughts. Stay tuned. I will respond there then.

"OK but I think you are making this whole Supremes thing sound a bit sacred. They weren’t joined at the hip , they didn’t make a pact to stay together into their eighties [[as far as I know) , they weren’t even family. Hell even the Jackson brothers split at some point!"

See my previous reply.;)

"Weren’t Eddie and David and the rest pretty desperate at this point? Diana never was. "

True, but I wouldn't rule out Diana being "talked" into it. [[As much as Ross could be talked into anything. Lol) there's the rub!

"And meanwhile Flo was reuniting with an abusive husband . I know you are squeamish about that , but nonetheless , I don’t consider that move on her part to be evidence of maturing. "

Right, because once one matures, every decision that is made is always good and mature? If that's been your experience, how blessed you are. I consider myself mature at 30something, but admittedly I make poor decisions every now and again, especially when I allow my feelings to overrule my good sense. But that is the very definition of immature.

And returning this to your initial point about how much more mature Flo had become by then , how much more resolved , and therefore ready to now get back into the swing of things, sorry, I just don't see it and its especially this whole Tommy thing that can't be easily ignored here .

"Thank you, there is an effort , but its surprising to me how so much can get lost in the translation!"

But that's communication, and it's also where maturity word now used eighteen times here :p:p comes into play. We write something and it's interpreted in a different way. Yep! It's good when the parties can go back and forth in understanding, as opposed to going back and forth in confusion and insults and negativity. This forum would run much more smoothly if people communicated more effectively.

on to next post :cool:

[Boogiedown]

thanks for digging this up Ran ! . Just so you know, I'm not so much challenging you as I am tapping into you for information. Thanks for sharing, i'm learning!


Boogie, I found the thread. Here's the portion where I give you some idea about my thoughts on what went wrong with this group. It was in reply to something someone else had said, so keep that in mind if there are parts that don't quite make sense on their own. The bold faced red parts is my general way of answering your question of- and I'm paraphrasing- "what part did Diana play in the breakup of the group".

"The world is a rough place. And don't forget, all of these people were so very young. I'll admit that I can be a bit hard on Berry Gordy because he was the head man in charge and he was- relatively speaking- considerably older than the Supremes, so in my mind I often feel like he should have known better than say certain things, do certain things, react in certain ways, etc. But in actuality Gordy was a very young man in his 30s when all of this drama was taking place. None of the Supremes were really equipped to deal with the reality that their fame became, and quite often that's attributed to their impoverished background and parents who were, more or less, not very worldly. But Gordy was in a similar boat in the sense that he was in uncharted territory for a Black man at that time. The stress on the girls was one thing, but I've never really contemplated what the stress may have been like for Berry. Now this is no excuse for what I do believe were his chauvinistic mind games that he often played with the three girls, Florence in particular. But keeping his age in mind might also explain how immature some of his antics were [["I agree with Diane, you're fat Flo"...wtf kind of school yard crap is that?). But image was everything!! Perhaps that was his idea of a rude awakening.

Being rational definitely wasn't in the picture. Rational would have been Gordy figuring out how to make Diana "the greatest star" without alienating Flo and Mary or attempting to diminish their roles in the group. Rational would have been Florence understanding that she had a job to do and either she do what is asked or she find something else to do with her life. So often today major stars are ridiculed for not having real world values, "but I find it a little interesting that Florence is given a pass that just about everyone on this forum [[who has a job) would be fired for if we went on our jobs with Flo's mentality.'" sorry don't follow ?

Compassion most certainly wasn't involved. Compassion would have been Diana taking a moment to think about someone other than herself. Her mind was hellbent on being DIANA ROSS and doing whatever to get there that she didn't take a moment to wonder- until well after she left the group- what her special treatment was doing to her friends. She knew people were being required to address her as Miss, but not Flo and Mary. She knew she was being given her own dressing room, but not Flo and Mary. She knew she was going to interviews early so she could have solo time while Flo and Mary were arriving late. Compassion would have been Diana advocating for Flo and Mary. Instead she was often indifferent or at times, if Flo's story about the charity commercial filming is accurate, I don't know this story , also where do you get Flo's account from?? she actively worked against them."
Ok so therein are examples of the regrets you think Diana could own up to concerning how things went down during the Supremes restructuring . I see , thanks again for sharing that Ran . :)

[RanRan79]

"Why "of course"?"

By most- if not all- accounts, everyone in the know could see that Tommy couldn't be trusted. So I would think it smart on Diana's part that if Tommy was attempting to act as a go between, she would wisely avoid that situation.

"Also, he and Flo are still together at this point, but they are losing the house . So , Tommy doesn't work?"

I've been under the impression that Flo losing the house happened after she filed for divorce from Tommy, so no, I don't believe they were together during this juncture. Cue back to the part in a previous post where I say that Tommy trying to intercept Diana's check doesn't make sense. That's one of the reasons why. As for Tommy and working, I think he always kept a job. I don't recall anything about him being out of work, except maybe a period of time after he was no longer Flo's manager.

"Very odd. [[and not very mature) Why not ??"

Another part of the story that doesn't make sense. And this will tie into the part where you questioned my remark about Florence being unaware of Diana offering assistance. Flo told Peter Benjaminson that if Diana were ever down on her luck and needed anything that Flo would do whatever she could. But Flo supposed that Diana didn't feel the same way, implying that she believed Diana knew she was having difficulties but didn't try to help. I'm taking Flo's words on this. If Diana did attempt to offer help, Florence never knew about it. This calls into question Maxine writing in her book that Flo refused to answer Diana's calls. Other than Maxine flat out lying, the only other explanation for her version of events is the mixing up of time periods. Maxine's story jumps all over the place in her book, and there are times when it's apparent that the timeline she created was a bit off. So I'm thinking any story where Diana is calling and Flo is refusing to take the call may have happened while Flo was still a Supreme and shit had gotten crazy. Although there is one other scenario that I just thought about: Flo claimed that prior to her and Diana's last conversation in 1975, the last time the two of them spoke was in 1971. 1971 was also when Flo sued Motown, naming her former singing partners in the suit, including her claim that Diana maliciously ousted her from the group. Could be that Diana called Flo about the suit and for awhile she dodged her calls before finally speaking. Or maybe they spoke on the phone and Flo didn't like what Diana had to say and when Diana kept trying, Flo refused the calls. At this point Maxine is dead, Flo is dead, so the only other person who could possibly shed factual light here is Diana. Boogie you may be right about the story being twisted.:D

"I would say this claimed house saving effort [[while if true was quite mature on Diana's part) sounds about as halfhearted as Diana's current search for Cindy."

I don't believe Diana ever does anything halfhearted, not when it comes to helping people. It's the one part of her life I wish people talked about more.

"Doesn't seem like the cards were going to line up. Besides all the obstacles you've mentioned, she was going to be a mother for years and years yet. And she'd have to once again contend with that historically abusive husband [[ who seems to have heroically reentered the family picture when there was new found hope and new found money. Did this guy now have a job ?)"

It wasn't in the cards because the woman died several months later. I'm curious to know what you think she should have been doing in order to label her intention to get back into singing as "in the cards"? I would never advise anyone to jump right into anything of that significance. And having a spouse who clearly was unreliable would be the last reason for Florence to leave those children. LOL

"But wouldn't the other two Supremes annoyedly tell her to buzz off. A bossy Flo doesn't strike me as a unifying component at this later juncture."

Real maturity isn't bossy. It's telling it like it is and hoping the folks listening buy into it. You can lead a horse to water...

"But that is the very definition of immature."

No it isn't. And bad decisions does not negate a person's maturity. Florence was an abused woman in the 1970s. Where abused women go, she was the rule, not the exception. Domestic abuse is much more widely understood today and yet 10 million women annually are victims of it. Returning to an abusive spouse doesn't denote a period of mature growth no more than Diana's alcoholism and drunk driving charge at 50 something suddenly made her an immature woman. Now if your position is that once mature always mature decisions, then we'll have to agree to disagree as I do not believe that's even possible.

"And returning this to your initial point about how much more mature Flo had become by then , how much more resolved , and therefore ready to now get back into the swing of things, sorry, I just don't see it and its especially this whole Tommy thing that can't be easily ignored here ."

For me Tommy can be easily ignored. If anything Tommy's presence would've been even more motivation to try again at a singing career since he so obviously loved the potential meal ticket. Bottom line for me is that at age 32 Flo was figuring things out. She received mental help [[something most people, let alone Black women, in the 70s didn't dare think about doing), she was reconciling old relationships, she was singing again, she was back in the money. But it was that performance that I think nailed it. She knew where her place was and I suspect that if death hadn't found her so early, we would have heard a bit more from the great Florence Ballard.

[RanRan79]

thanks for digging this up Ran ! . Just so you know, I'm not so much challenging you as I am tapping into you for information. Thanks for sharing, i'm learning!

Oh I didn't take anything as a challenge to me, although some of your thoughts are challenging for me to figure out how you come to your conclusions.:p If I'm helping you learn anything, that's great! Your questions and comments also allow me to ponder my opinions and even change them at points. Case in point: me saying Diana wasn't mature in the mid 70s. I'm going to have to revise that. She was indeed a mother and very hands on. Clearly she wasn't the selfish 20 something she had once been. Even attempting to help Flo, that's definitely maturity at work, considering that the two of them haven't always had the best relationship. Sure, she smacked the shit out of Gordy, but as I said in my previous post, it's my opinion that a person can make immature decisions every now and again and still be a mature person.


But image was everything!! Perhaps that was his idea of a rude awakening.

Except we know that nobody saw Florence as fat. Mary has consistently said that Flo gained weight at a point in the group, yet there is no photographic evidence or video footage that supports the idea that Flo was ever fat. Both Diana and Mary wished they were built like Florence Ballard. That was a sexy ass woman. Gordy was great at mind games and he knew how to get to each girl. Gordy zeroed in on Mary's lack of confidence in her vocals to keep her in line. He knew he couldn't get anywhere with that with Flo. That girl knew above all else that she could sing and you weren't going to convince her otherwise. But trying to make her think that visually she had a problem...well it's the one thing we men know is a sure fire way to hit the confidence of a woman: with her looks. Add in the fact that Flo's mother was morbidly obese and it's possible Gordy was also attempting to play on any fears she had of turning into her mother, as some girls do. That's just mean. Had Gordy been a different kind of man I think he would have known how to run the ship more smoothly and still get the end results he worked toward: making Diana Ross a solo sensation. And he could have done that and kept Flo and Mary happy at the same time.


sorry don't follow ?

My point was that Flo is lauded around here for all the times she let Gordy and Diana have it. She's given a pass for missing recording sessions, rehearsals, even a performance. She was just exercising her right to free speech and to respond to suddenly not be happy in the Supremes. But in what other job is this a good idea? What job can any of us cuss our boss out and expect to come in the next day? What job can we skip work we don't want to do and expect to continue employment? It doesn't happen. And while I empathize with and understand Flo's feelings, the way she went about expressing her displeasure ultimately got her booted out of the group she helped make famous. Was Gordy a dick about it? You bet. But I suspect that if Flo had approached her problems in the group with a level head and a calm demeanor, she may never have been fired at all. Of course that would have been the mature [[there's that word again!:p) thing to do, and in her early 20s it's no surprise she didn't take that route.


I don't know this story , also where do you get Flo's account from??

Flo told one of the biographers [[can't remember if it was J.Randy T or Benjaminson) about the Supremes filming a commercial in 1967 in the Brewster Projects. According to Flo each girl had speaking lines when they arrived. Halfway through filming Diana suddenly stopped and told Gordy that she wanted to do all the lines herself. Even Gordy wasn't pleased with Diana's timing but ultimately agreed with her, to which Flo went off and she and Diana exchanged words, all the while everybody in the projects were watching. When the commercial aired Diana did all the talking. I'm surprised Flo and Mary didn't jump her ass right then and there. How much more of the spotlight did the girl need? LOL


Ok so therein are examples of the regrets you think Diana could own up to concerning how things went down during the Supremes restructuring . I see , thanks again for sharing that Ran . :)

Like I said before, Diana was a selfish 20 something year old girl. Flo was an impetuous 20 something year old girl. And truth be told you could switch either girl for selfish and impetuous. They were acting like normal girls, it's just that there was so much at stake for them than the average young lady their age. Diana has hinted at times of understanding Flo and Mary's positions when Diana was given more attention, but I always want her to just be real.

Interviewer: Mary Wilson wrote a book in which she accused you of being a spotlight hog. Florence Ballard's various anecdotes about you as a singing partner have also been well documented, as have several anecdotes, supposedly, regarding your antics as a member of the Supremes by other authors. Are these things true? Were you really that bad?

Diana: Sometimes I was that bad. It was a million years ago. I'm a grandmother now and it's amazing to me that some folks are still talking about something I may or may not have done when I was a teenager or in my 20s. We all have a past. Mine isn't squeaky clean. Did I hog the spotlight at times? Yes I did. I was one third of the greatest female group ever and neither of my singing partners were slouches in beauty, voice or personality. I did what I felt I needed to do at the time to shine. Some of my actions hurt Florence and Mary, and for that I'm sorry. Some of my actions rocked the boat more than necessary and caused more trouble than there would have otherwise have been. Of course I know that now because I'm grown, I'm wiser, and hindsight is 20/20. Flo and I made amends before her passing and I took care to keep up with her girls when they were growing up. Mary and I have had difficulties which I will not rehash, but I wish her the best. But all those other people that's constantly talking about what I did when I was 17 or 23 can choke on a thousand dicks. I'm in my 70s. Get over it.

Yes, that's what I would like to see my Ross finally admit.:cool:

[blackguy69]

Oh I didn't take anything as a challenge to me, although some of your thoughts are challenging for me to figure out how you come to your conclusions.:p If I'm helping you learn anything, that's great! Your questions and comments also allow me to ponder my opinions and even change them at points. Case in point: me saying Diana wasn't mature in the mid 70s. I'm going to have to revise that. She was indeed a mother and very hands on. Clearly she wasn't the selfish 20 something she had once been. Even attempting to help Flo, that's definitely maturity at work, considering that the two of them haven't always had the best relationship. Sure, she smacked the shit out of Gordy, but as I said in my previous post, it's my opinion that a person can make immature decisions every now and again and still be a mature person.



Except we know that nobody saw Florence as fat. Mary has consistently said that Flo gained weight at a point in the group, yet there is no photographic evidence or video footage that supports the idea that Flo was ever fat. Both Diana and Mary wished they were built like Florence Ballard. That was a sexy ass woman. Gordy was great at mind games and he knew how to get to each girl. Gordy zeroed in on Mary's lack of confidence in her vocals to keep her in line. He knew he couldn't get anywhere with that with Flo. That girl knew above all else that she could sing and you weren't going to convince her otherwise. But trying to make her think that visually she had a problem...well it's the one thing we men know is a sure fire way to hit the confidence of a woman: with her looks. Add in the fact that Flo's mother was morbidly obese and it's possible Gordy was also attempting to play on any fears she had of turning into her mother, as some girls do. That's just mean. Had Gordy been a different kind of man I think he would have known how to run the ship more smoothly and still get the end results he worked toward: making Diana Ross a solo sensation. And he could have done that and kept Flo and Mary happy at the same time.



My point was that Flo is lauded around here for all the times she let Gordy and Diana have it. She's given a pass for missing recording sessions, rehearsals, even a performance. She was just exercising her right to free speech and to respond to suddenly not be happy in the Supremes. But in what other job is this a good idea? What job can any of us cuss our boss out and expect to come in the next day? What job can we skip work we don't want to do and expect to continue employment? It doesn't happen. And while I empathize with and understand Flo's feelings, the way she went about expressing her displeasure ultimately got her booted out of the group she helped make famous. Was Gordy a dick about it? You bet. But I suspect that if Flo had approached her problems in the group with a level head and a calm demeanor, she may never have been fired at all. Of course that would have been the mature [[there's that word again!:p) thing to do, and in her early 20s it's no surprise she didn't take that route.



Flo told one of the biographers [[can't remember if it was J.Randy T or Benjaminson) about the Supremes filming a commercial in 1967 in the Brewster Projects. According to Flo each girl had speaking lines when they arrived. Halfway through filming Diana suddenly stopped and told Gordy that she wanted to do all the lines herself. Even Gordy wasn't pleased with Diana's timing but ultimately agreed with her, to which Flo went off and she and Diana exchanged words, all the while everybody in the projects were watching. When the commercial aired Diana did all the talking. I'm surprised Flo and Mary didn't jump her ass right then and there. How much more of the spotlight did the girl need? LOL



Like I said before, Diana was a selfish 20 something year old girl. Flo was an impetuous 20 something year old girl. And truth be told you could switch either girl for selfish and impetuous. They were acting like normal girls, it's just that there was so much at stake for them than the average young lady their age. Diana has hinted at times of understanding Flo and Mary's positions when Diana was given more attention, but I always want her to just be real.

Interviewer: Mary Wilson wrote a book in which she accused you of being a spotlight hog. Florence Ballard's various anecdotes about you as a singing partner have also been well documented, as have several anecdotes, supposedly, regarding your antics as a member of the Supremes by other authors. Are these things true? Were you really that bad?

Diana: Sometimes I was that bad. It was a million years ago. I'm a grandmother now and it's amazing to me that some folks are still talking about something I may or may not have done when I was a teenager or in my 20s. We all have a past. Mine isn't squeaky clean. Did I hog the spotlight at times? Yes I did. I was one third of the greatest female group ever and neither of my singing partners were slouches in beauty, voice or personality. I did what I felt I needed to do at the time to shine. Some of my actions hurt Florence and Mary, and for that I'm sorry. Some of my actions rocked the boat more than necessary and caused more trouble than there would have otherwise have been. Of course I know that now because I'm grown, I'm wiser, and hindsight is 20/20. Flo and I made amends before her passing and I took care to keep up with her girls when they were growing up. Mary and I have had difficulties which I will not rehash, but I wish her the best. But all those other people that's constantly talking about what I did when I was 17 or 23 can choke on a thousand dicks. I'm in my 70s. Get over it.

Yes, that's what I would like to see my Ross finally admit.:cool:
I would never say Flo was fat but she did gain weight while there. Mary had commented that these gowns were so snuggly that a pound gained spelled disaster. Flo did go from an 8 in 1965 to a 12 two years later. And of course it didn't help that Diana was so thin so she looked huge in comparison. To answer your question Ran about no photo evidence, actually there was if you caught it. When Flo was brought back in for the last few months before she was fired, you noticed that the bulk of what they wore was the looser chiffon dresses as opposed to the tighter fitting ones.

[TomatoTom123]

Diana: Sometimes I was that bad. It was a million years ago. I'm a grandmother now and it's amazing to me that some folks are still talking about something I may or may not have done when I was a teenager or in my 20s. We all have a past. Mine isn't squeaky clean. Did I hog the spotlight at times? Yes I did. I was one third of the greatest female group ever and neither of my singing partners were slouches in beauty, voice or personality. I did what I felt I needed to do at the time to shine. Some of my actions hurt Florence and Mary, and for that I'm sorry. Some of my actions rocked the boat more than necessary and caused more trouble than there would have otherwise have been. Of course I know that now because I'm grown, I'm wiser, and hindsight is 20/20. Flo and I made amends before her passing and I took care to keep up with her girls when they were growing up. Mary and I have had difficulties which I will not rehash, but I wish her the best. But all those other people that's constantly talking about what I did when I was 17 or 23 can choke on a thousand dicks. I'm in my 70s. Get over it.

I thought that was an actual quote from Diana then until she mentioned choking on dicks, LOL

[jobeterob]

A lot of them probably choked on one.

[Jimi LaLumia]

OMG!Diana Ross was not one third, she was the lead singer and front person from Day One, all through the 'no hits Supremes' period right into the 12 Number Ones period; if being the front person makes her a stage hog, then I guess the same applies to Martha Reeves, Smokey Robinson, Gladys Knight,Levi Stubbs, etc.. get over this sisterhood fantasy land, folks, welcome to show biz..

[blackguy69]

OMG!Diana Ross was not one third, she was the lead singer and front person from Day One, all through the 'no hits Supremes' period right into the 12 Number Ones period; if being the front person makes her a stage hog, then I guess the same applies to Martha Reeves, Smokey Robinson, Gladys Knight,Levi Stubbs, etc.. get over this sisterhood fantasy land, folks, welcome to show biz..
Your statement would be correct if the supremes were set up like the vandellas. But since it wasn't, the group was built on their personalities not just a lead and backups.

[TomatoTom123]

A lot of them probably choked on one.

LOLol

Come to think of it "choke on a thousand dicks" sounds like a punishment from the Old Testament, LOL

[Jimi LaLumia]

the group was built on brilliant H/D/H compositions tailored to the sound and delivery of Diana Ross; that's how 12 Number Ones came along..

[vgalindo]

OMG!Diana Ross was not one third, she was the lead singer and front person from Day One, all through the 'no hits Supremes' period right into the 12 Number Ones period; if being the front person makes her a stage hog, then I guess the same applies to Martha Reeves, Smokey Robinson, Gladys Knight,Levi Stubbs, etc.. get over this sisterhood fantasy land, folks, welcome to show biz..
Thank you. I couldn't have said it any better.

[PeaceNHarmony]

OMG!Diana Ross was not one third, she was the lead singer and front person from Day One, all through the 'no hits Supremes' period right into the 12 Number Ones period; if being the front person makes her a stage hog, then I guess the same applies to Martha Reeves, Smokey Robinson, Gladys Knight,Levi Stubbs, etc.. get over this sisterhood fantasy land, folks, welcome to show biz..
Doncha wish you could get into these people's insights and learn why they really think, 60 years after the fact, that The Supremes would have gone anywhere without Diana Ross as the lead? [[As well as the other groups vs. leads you well mention).

[RanRan79]

I would never say Flo was fat but she did gain weight while there. Mary had commented that these gowns were so snuggly that a pound gained spelled disaster. Flo did go from an 8 in 1965 to a 12 two years later. And of course it didn't help that Diana was so thin so she looked huge in comparison. To answer your question Ran about no photo evidence, actually there was if you caught it. When Flo was brought back in for the last few months before she was fired, you noticed that the bulk of what they wore was the looser chiffon dresses as opposed to the tighter fitting ones.

Oh yeah, she gained some weight over time [[as did Mary) but she was never fat. Remember Gordy's taunts and Mary's claims occur as early as 1966. Look at Flo on Sullivan when they do "You Can't Hurry Love" and the Symphony medley, or when they debut "Love Is Here and Now You're Gone" on whatever show they were on in 1967. That is not a fat woman and no one watching them was thinking "The Supremes look great, but that big one on the end...". Lol Flo's so called weight issue wasn't real. It was used as a weapon in war.

[RanRan79]

I thought that was an actual quote from Diana then until she mentioned choking on dicks, LOL

LMAO Sorry about that Tom. But I sure wish Diana would let it all out like that just one time. I want so bad for her to tell the haters to kiss her entire ass when they bring up 50 year old shit.

[RanRan79]

A lot of them probably choked on one.

You got that right!!!

[RanRan79]

Your statement would be correct if the supremes were set up like the vandellas. But since it wasn't, the group was built on their personalities not just a lead and backups.

Don't bother BG. You see how of all the things I wrote in my fake Diana interview the one thing they zeroed in on was my reference to Diana Ross being one third of the Supremes. That's how much hate exists for Flo and Mary. If you aren't saying anything that maligns them in someway, it's a problem for some. And apparently some folks don't know what "one-third" is.

Noun. 1. one-third - one of three equal parts of a divisible whole

Before DRATS no one even knew Diana Ross' name who didn't also know Florence Ballard and Mary Wilson. That was the whole point of changing the name to Diana Ross and the Supremes. Gordy wanted to elevate her above Flo [[and then Cindy) and Mary in the public's mind, because until then, while Diana was the lead singer and the indisputable voice that captured the public's ears, it was the look, story and personalities of all three that captured the public's heart. If Diana were more than one-third she could've went solo in 1966. If Diana were more than one-third even after the name change, and the whole thing had been all about her, when she left the group, the Supremes never would have had continued success while Diana's first show couldn't sale out with a 20 dollar giveaway gimmick.

But that's the part they chose to focus on. Not Diana telling the haters to go to hell, but the part where I say she was one-third of the group, which is a fact, not an opinion. It's math. I guess these folks are so smart they're rewriting mathematics. What is this, that new NEW math?:rolleyes:

"I was one third of the greatest female group ever and neither of my singing partners were slouches in beauty, voice or personality."

That, ladies and gentlemen, is the Supremes, told in fake voice by one-third of the Supremes, Diana Ross. And I think from here on out that's how I will refer to her: Diana Ross, one-third of the Supremes. Ya know, cuz I'm feeling petty.:cool:

[blackguy69]

Oh yeah, she gained some weight over time [[as did Mary) but she was never fat. Remember Gordy's taunts and Mary's claims occur as early as 1966. Look at Flo on Sullivan when they do "You Can't Hurry Love" and the Symphony medley, or when they debut "Love Is Here and Now You're Gone" on whatever show they were on in 1967. That is not a fat woman and no one watching them was thinking "The Supremes look great, but that big one on the end...". Lol Flo's so called weight issue wasn't real. It was used as a weapon in war.
But unlike Flo Mary lost weight the difference between 1966 and 1967!is very noticeable

[thanxal]

Diana Ross, one-third of the Supremes.
"Honey, if that ain't enough thats too bad".

[RanRan79]

But unlike Flo Mary lost weight the difference between 1966 and 1967!is very noticeable

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one BG.

[RanRan79]

"Honey, if that ain't enough thats too bad".

That Florence, still tellin it like T.I.is all these years later. LOL

[blackguy69]

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one BG.
Look at the ed Sullivan September 1966 then look at the Hollywood palace one year later there is a difference. At the time Flo was let go Mary was a size 7 and shrinking. I agree that Mary gained a few pounds but She didn't stay that size for long.

[RanRan79]

Look at the ed Sullivan September 1966 then look at the Hollywood palace one year later there is a difference. At the time Flo was let go Mary was a size 7 and shrinking. I agree that Mary gained a few pounds but She didn't stay that size for long.

Oh yeah BG, I agree that Mary lost some weight. What we'll have to agree to disagree on is Flo's weight. My comment was in response to that. Sorry for the confusion.

[vgalindo]

Don't bother BG. You see how of all the things I wrote in my fake Diana interview the one thing they zeroed in on was my reference to Diana Ross being one third of the Supremes. That's how much hate exists for Flo and Mary. If you aren't saying anything that maligns them in someway, it's a problem for some. And apparently some folks don't know what "one-third" is.

Noun. 1. one-third - one of three equal parts of a divisible whole

Before DRATS no one even knew Diana Ross' name who didn't also know Florence Ballard and Mary Wilson. That was the whole point of changing the name to Diana Ross and the Supremes. Gordy wanted to elevate her above Flo [[and then Cindy) and Mary in the public's mind, because until then, while Diana was the lead singer and the indisputable voice that captured the public's ears, it was the look, story and personalities of all three that captured the public's heart. If Diana were more than one-third she could've went solo in 1966. If Diana were more than one-third even after the name change, and the whole thing had been all about her, when she left the group, the Supremes never would have had continued success while Diana's first show couldn't sale out with a 20 dollar giveaway gimmick.

But that's the part they chose to focus on. Not Diana telling the haters to go to hell, but the part where I say she was one-third of the group, which is a fact, not an opinion. It's math. I guess these folks are so smart they're rewriting mathematics. What is this, that new NEW math?:rolleyes:

"I was one third of the greatest female group ever and neither of my singing partners were slouches in beauty, voice or personality."

That, ladies and gentlemen, is the Supremes, told in fake voice by one-third of the Supremes, Diana Ross. And I think from here on out that's how I will refer to her: Diana Ross, one-third of the Supremes. Ya know, cuz I'm feeling petty.:cool:
Who are you referring to as hating Mary and Florence? I love all the Supremes. But it is stupid not to recognize Diana Ross as the lead singer. It is her voice on all those number 1 records and if you feel that wasn't the main reason for their super success than I can say the same thing on how you all hate Diana Ross for their success by diminishing her as the lead singer. Come on now how many people buy a record for the background singing? Proof "Love Child" and my favorite "Someday we'll be together". The Supremes were a beautiful package together but to say they were all equal is stretching it. You never hear the same things about Smokey, Gladys, Michael, and Martha. How were they built that was so different? The Supremes may have shared leads before they got their contract with Motown but once they started recording Diana was the lead period. Even Bubba got a lead on some of the Gladys Knight and the Pips albums. Lol. But everyone knew that Gladys was the star!!

[blackguy69]

Who are you referring to as hating Mary and Florence? I love all the Supremes. But it is stupid not to recognize Diana Ross as the lead singer. It is her voice on all those number 1 records and if you feel that wasn't the main reason for their super success than I can say the same thing on how you all hate Diana Ross for their success by diminishing her as the lead singer. Come on now how many people buy a record for the background singing? Proof "Love Child" and my favorite "Someday we'll be together". The Supremes were a beautiful package together but to say they were all equal is stretching it. You never hear the same things about Smokey, Gladys, Michael, and Martha. How were they built that was so different? The Supremes may have shared leads before they got their contract with Motown but once they started recording Diana was the lead period. Even Bubba got a lead on some of the Gladys Knight and the Pips albums. Lol. But everyone knew that Gladys was the star!!
He wasn't hating on Diana. It was never I'm Diana Ross and they are the supremes. It was always the supremes even with the name change Diana always said were the supremes. No one is denying that it's Diana's voice that lead the group but it was and always a group effort [[even with songs like love child and someday, even though Mary and Cindy didn't sing on it, they still promoted the song). Like I said if it was all about Diana and not the others, it would've set up that way from the start. But it wasn't.

[blackguy69]

Also to and others rest of the question, it was always Martha and the vandellas. Martha was always the lead. It was never Michael and the Jacksons. Michael and jermaine basically split the lead. In The case of smokey the other miracles wanted smokey out front as the same with Gladys and the pips.

[jobeterob]

In concert there were 3 TIL the last year or 2

On record you got Diana and heaven knows who

[RanRan79]

Who are you referring to as hating Mary and Florence? I love all the Supremes. But it is stupid not to recognize Diana Ross as the lead singer. It is her voice on all those number 1 records and if you feel that wasn't the main reason for their super success than I can say the same thing on how you all hate Diana Ross for their success by diminishing her as the lead singer. Come on now how many people buy a record for the background singing? Proof "Love Child" and my favorite "Someday we'll be together". The Supremes were a beautiful package together but to say they were all equal is stretching it. You never hear the same things about Smokey, Gladys, Michael, and Martha. How were they built that was so different? The Supremes may have shared leads before they got their contract with Motown but once they started recording Diana was the lead period. Even Bubba got a lead on some of the Gladys Knight and the Pips albums. Lol. But everyone knew that Gladys was the star!!

Your accusation that I hate Diana Ross is so absurd that I nearly avoided responding to you. My love for Diana Ross, one of the greatest voices and entertainers of our time and of all time, is so well documented in this forum that you might have a better chance of finding evidence to support a case that I'm a fan of Donald Trump. You will not find a post where I suggest that Diana's voice fronting those records was not a big part of their success. In fact in the very post that you replied to, I say "...while Diana was the lead singer and the indisputable voice that captured the public's ears...". Perhaps I shouldn't be too hard on you. Maybe I should assume you missed that part? I hope so.

Whatever the case, I just think it weird that my comment about Diana being one-third of the Supremes, which is, again, a fact, not an opinion, seems to have gotten under some skins. I could see if I wrote that Diana was a backup singer in the Supremes. That would be inaccurate. [[Unless of course one were referring to the group's work as background session vocalists.) That would be something for folks to debate. But me saying she was one third of that group [[again, that's exactly what she was) says nothing about her singing, nothing about her relationship to the public, nothing about her star quality. Nothing. Nada. Zilch. Zero. IMO my comment allowed people to spin the narrative into something else, to create controversy where there shouldn't be any. Of course if you pay attention to the current conversations around hot button topics unrelated to music, you'll understand that this is a common thing to do these days.

So let me state again, ya know, for the record: Diana Ross was the lead singer of a group she was one-third of. Just like Levi was one-fourth of the Tops and Wanda was one-third of the Marvelettes and Michael was one-fifth [[or 20 percent) of the Jackson Five. No, Martha was not any fraction or percentage of the Vandellas. She was Martha Reeves or plain old Martha and with her were the Vandellas. Martha was, however, a fourth of the Del-Phis.

I'm finding it really strange that anyone has taken issue with what I said about Diana Ross, one-third of the Supremes.

[RanRan79]

In concert there were 3 TIL the last year or 2

On record you got Diana and heaven knows who

Nah, we pretty much know who Rob.:p

[jobeterob]

Nah, we pretty much know who Rob.:p

Mary Cindy Florence Marlene Jackie louvain
Johnny Bristol

Who else?

[vgalindo]

Your accusation that I hate Diana Ross is so absurd that I nearly avoided responding to you. My love for Diana Ross, one of the greatest voices and entertainers of our time and of all time, is so well documented in this forum that you might have a better chance of finding evidence to support a case that I'm a fan of Donald Trump. You will not find a post where I suggest that Diana's voice fronting those records was not a big part of their success. In fact in the very post that you replied to, I say "...while Diana was the lead singer and the indisputable voice that captured the public's ears...". Perhaps I shouldn't be too hard on you. Maybe I should assume you missed that part? I hope so.

Whatever the case, I just think it weird that my comment about Diana being one-third of the Supremes, which is, again, a fact, not an opinion, seems to have gotten under some skins. I could see if I wrote that Diana was a backup singer in the Supremes. That would be inaccurate. [[Unless of course one were referring to the group's work as background session vocalists.) That would be something for folks to debate. But me saying she was one third of that group [[again, that's exactly what she was) says nothing about her singing, nothing about her relationship to the public, nothing about her star quality. Nothing. Nada. Zilch. Zero. IMO my comment allowed people to spin the narrative into something else, to create controversy where there shouldn't be any. Of course if you pay attention to the current conversations around hot button topics unrelated to music, you'll understand that this is a common thing to do these days.

So let me state again, ya know, for the record: Diana Ross was the lead singer of a group she was one-third of. Just like Levi was one-fourth of the Tops and Wanda was one-third of the Marvelettes and Michael was one-fifth [[or 20 percent) of the Jackson Five. No, Martha was not any fraction or percentage of the Vandellas. She was Martha Reeves or plain old Martha and with her were the Vandellas. Martha was, however, a fourth of the Del-Phis.

I'm finding it really strange that anyone has taken issue with what I said about Diana Ross, one-third of the Supremes.
Ran Ran. I know you are a fan of Diana Ross and you don't bash her like some others here on this forum. I just didn't like the part of your post were you stated all this hate towards Mary and Florence. Just because I agreed with Jimi post doesn't mean I have hate for Florence or Mary.

[TomatoTom123]

and Michael was one-fifth [[or 20 percent) of the Jackson Five.

Excellent fraction-percentage conversion skills there RanRan :p

[PeaceNHarmony]

In concert there were 3 TIL the last year or 2

On record you got Diana and heaven knows who
It's been a surprise to me since reading this forum just how few DRATS recordings billed as 'The Supremes' actually featured any Supremes other than Diana Ross. It would be interesting to have a full & annotated list by each song. Of course F-M-C all were integral to the group as their images were so striking and they appeared in the live act.

[RanRan79]

Mary Cindy Florence Marlene Jackie louvain
Johnny Bristol

Who else?

My calculations would say mostly Flo and Mary, followed by the Andantes, followed by Flo, Mary and the Andantes "together". I can't decide who actually recorded more backing vocals: Barbara or Cindy. I have a couple of hours this morning where I will be somewhere in which finding something to kill hours of time is a necessity. Since nearly all of my Supremes music has been uploaded onto my laptop, I might use that time to compile my list of who is or isn't singing background in the Supremes and then you and I, or whomever wants to chime in, can compare ears and notes. I may make it a separate thread and hope for all hope's sakes that people can discuss and remain civil. Fingers crossed.

[RanRan79]

Ran Ran. I know you are a fan of Diana Ross and you don't bash her like some others here on this forum. I just didn't like the part of your post were you stated all this hate towards Mary and Florence. Just because I agreed with Jimi post doesn't mean I have hate for Florence or Mary.

If you don't hate Mary and Flo, then my apologies V. But the offense that posters took to my comment certainly makes the case that if someone isn't proclaiming Diana Ross to be the greatest star and Mary and Flo nothing more than hood ornaments, the problem lies with the negative feelings they have for Flo and Mary. In my mind it's the same with the ones who come for anyone who has something positive to say about Diana Ross as the lead singer of the Supremes. It's like a person can't talk about her attributes to the group without dissing Flo and Mary, and I know personally that isn't true. But what I said was that Diana was one-third of the group. It wasn't a diss. It wasn't designed to downplay her role as the lead vocalist, so the backlash became rather silly IMO. Do you not see how irrational the responses to my comment have been?

[blackguy69]

My calculations would say mostly Flo and Mary, followed by the Andantes, followed by Flo, Mary and the Andantes "together". I can't decide who actually recorded more backing vocals: Barbara or Cindy. I have a couple of hours this morning where I will be somewhere in which finding something to kill hours of time is a necessity. Since nearly all of my Supremes music has been uploaded onto my laptop, I might use that time to compile my list of who is or isn't singing background in the Supremes and then you and I, or whomever wants to chime in, can compare ears and notes. I may make it a separate thread and hope for all hope's sakes that people can discuss and remain civil. Fingers crossed.
I'm assuming Cindy since she continues into the 70's but I think it was mentioned a long while ago that Mary and Cindy recorded more than we realized .

[RanRan79]

Excellent fraction-percentage conversion skills there RanRan :p

I'm a regular mathematician Tom.

[floyjoy678]

It might be easier to compile a list of songs Florence and/or Mary did NOT sing on. Then you have songs where they're with the Andantes or it's Mary with a couple of Andantes or Flo with a couple of Andantes.

[milven]

There are so many mixes and versions of these songs out there after fifty years. Which ones will be used in the compilation of the list?

I'm an original fan who bought the 45's when they came out, and the mono albums. I later replaced the mono albums with stereo and found different mixes. My biggest disapointment there was I HEAR A SYMPHONY, which had the background vocals muffled.

There was a revelation here once that Flo and Mary were not on STOP IN THE NAME OF LOVE. I forgot what conclusion the forumn came to. Were they on the original 45 release? Was it sweetened with other voices? Did they actually record the song and then have their voices replaced by others?

[blackguy69]

It was mentioned that Mary and Flo were on the album version but not the 45. Also someone mentioned that louvian said they sang on it along with Flo and Mary. I'm incline to believe that it was Mary, Flo and the andantes

[PeaceNHarmony]

There are so many mixes and versions of these songs out there after fifty years. Which ones will be used in the compilation of the list?

I'm an original fan who bought the 45's when they came out, and the mono albums. I later replaced the mono albums with stereo and found different mixes. My biggest disapointment there was I HEAR A SYMPHONY, which had the background vocals muffled.

There was a revelation here once that Flo and Mary were not on STOP IN THE NAME OF LOVE. I forgot what conclusion the forumn came to. Were they on the original 45 release? Was it sweetened with other voices? Did they actually record the song and then have their voices replaced by others?
In fact, the multiplicity of takes that were eventually released would be a prime reason for a concordance of this sort. I would be interested in the released iterations. Of course this information would always be contested by certain fans [[as evidenced by some of the responses on this thread alone).

[jobeterob]

Could be a massive list.

Brad was pretty good at who was on what mix, who might have been on what mix and how many different mixes their might have been.

Amongst long time fans, I think it is fair to say that some of the favorites were the songs where you have at least Florence in the background singing against Diana - that mix of voices carried a lot of appeal. It was not really ever there again in that manner after about You Keep Me Hangin On. It resurfaced again in Love Child and Someday We'll be Together - but of course, it was a quite different sound.

[TheMotownManiac]

Flo began to gain weight by early 1966 and it shows. By summer, she had a small gut as evidenced in the YCHL video at Palisades Park. If you notice her in the August R&H taping, she looks great in the red sequins. 3 months later she is filling it out in a more robust manner, but still is nothing short of sensational. Three months later on Andy Williams, she again is a bit fuller in the hip and face. Four months later on Ed Sullivan, she is at her biggest and they are wearing empire waist chiffon gowns - compare her face changes from YCHL TO The Happening 8 months later. I can’t tell enough if she qualifies for the moniker “fat” because the gown hides so much, but she is clearly much bigger and, IMHO, not at her best facially.

I can see the annoyance she caused by growing so much so fast, especially with the new gowns they had invested in and had coming. Can you imagine Flo in the Reflections dresses from Hollywood Palace or Ernie Ford? No. So, more chiffon would have to have been in the works and I believe those pink things they rarely wore were for Flo’s benefit. And if I were Mary and Diana and had just spent a fortune on gowns that one day would be legend, I’d be pissed at having to wear old lady chiffon as well, although I do like those yellow gowns.

Tony Turner told how Flo was on speed to lose weight, so she was aware of the problem, but some people gain more from alcohol than others and she may not have been aware that it could be a major culprit in the issue. 50 years later, we understand nutrition, metabolism and many of the variables that effect weight which The Supremes were not privy to. The fact that Flo did not fit well enough in her tux didn’t help her cause with Berry. In summation, there’s no way to spin away Flo’s weight issue, and her size compared to the others is a fair one for the look of the group. Look how silly MSS looked sometimes just with their height differences.

I’m of The Saint Flo group, but I’m not blind either. I just wish they had been able to rest Flo, get her some help, and put her back in the group without kicking her out, but emotions were high, stress was rampant and everyone involved was spread pretty thin. I really don’t see a villain here.

[PeaceNHarmony]

Flo began to gain weight by early 1966 and it shows. By summer, she had a small gut as evidenced in the YCHL video at Palisades Park. If you notice her in the August R&H taping, she looks great in the red sequins. 3 months later she is filling it out in a more robust manner, but still is nothing short of sensational. Three months later on Andy Williams, she again is a bit fuller in the hip and face. Four months later on Ed Sullivan, she is at her biggest and they are wearing empire waist chiffon gowns - compare her face changes from YCHL TO The Happening 8 months later. I can’t tell enough if she qualifies for the moniker “fat” because the gown hides so much, but she is clearly much bigger and, IMHO, not at her best facially.

I can see the annoyance she caused by growing so much so fast, especially with the new gowns they had invested in and had coming. Can you imagine Flo in the Reflections dresses from Hollywood Palace or Ernie Ford? No. So, more chiffon would have to have been in the works and I believe those pink things they rarely wore were for Flo’s benefit. And if I were Mary and Diana and had just spent a fortune on gowns that one day would be legend, I’d be pissed at having to wear old lady chiffon as well, although I do like those yellow gowns.

Tony Turner told how Flo was on speed to lose weight, so she was aware of the problem, but some people gain more from alcohol than others and she may not have been aware that it could be a major culprit in the issue. 50 years later, we understand nutrition, metabolism and many of the variables that effect weight which The Supremes were not privy to. The fact that Flo did not fit well enough in her tux didn’t help her cause with Berry. In summation, there’s no way to spin away Flo’s weight issue, and her size compared to the others is a fair one for the look of the group. Look how silly MSS looked sometimes just with their height differences.

I’m of The Saint Flo group, but I’m not blind either. I just wish they had been able to rest Flo, get her some help, and put her back in the group without kicking her out, but emotions were high, stress was rampant and everyone involved was spread pretty thin. I really don’t see a villain here.
You've got it - the only villain was the POS who assaulted Florence. His name is known and he's gotten a free pass even in death. But that's a man-thang, isn't it? Men most always pass blame on to a woman, be it the victim or a more convenient [[and in this case, successful) woman. It wasn't Berry Gordy's desire for perfection, nor was it Diana Ross' unmatchable voice, charisma, and work ethic, nor Mary Wilson's self-centered waffling and 'where's the party' attitude. The assault was what drove Florence down the bad road. http://popgates.com/the-devil-and-reggie-harding/

[TomatoTom123]

I'm a regular mathematician Tom.

I can tell :p

[RanRan79]

Rob the thread is up about the Supremes background credits. Feel free to chime in. [[That goes for everyone.)

[TomatoTom123]

Rob the thread is up about the Supremes background credits. Feel free to chime in. [[That goes for everyone.)

LOL, sorry RanRan, I can see you're trying to have a serious discussion here and I'm just making stoopid posts, haaaaaaaaa :D

[RanRan79]

LOL, sorry RanRan, I can see you're trying to have a serious discussion here and I'm just making stoopid posts, haaaaaaaaa :D

What else is new?:p

[TomatoTom123]

What else is new?:p

Your other thread which I have now hijacked with a continuing theme of silliness? Lol

[imakicola]

No to me real maturity isn’t just always telling it like it is. That almost implies that a person thinks they are right and wants to shove their beliefs onto other people. And that a person can just impulsively run their mouth all the time. I think real maturity includes being honest and “telling it like it is” when NECESSARY, but also knowing when to pick your battles, when to let things go, and having the patience to be able to do whichever, while maintaining your dignity. Being able to consider that you may be wrong, before saying you’re right. Being able to have a disagreement with your best friend or your spouse, and not having to get your point across at all costs. Sacrificing when it is good to, and knowing when to insist your side be heard. Just my two cents. Because any three year old can just always “tell it like it is.” To me being an adult is knowing when to do something and biting your tongue sometimes. But only when you should. Speaking up when you need to. And sometimes being the bigger person and not engaging in something.

[jobeterob]

Good post Imakicola - discretion is wise I agree

I was told by someone that knows that Mary Wilson was at a private fundraiser in the Ukraine as Diana Ross’s Vegas run ended

So she could not attend

[TheMotownManiac]

Rob, Mary’s fundraiser was in Massachusetts that weekend but she still could have made several of the shows after her public comment if she chose to. She was advised to re-think the situation, and did.

[jobeterob]

Rob, Mary’s fundraiser was in Massachusetts that weekend but she still could have made several of the shows after her public comment if she chose to. She was advised to re-think the situation, and did.

Okay well makes sense; likely some miscommunication

[daviddh]

There are so many mixes and versions of these songs out there after fifty years. Which ones will be used in the compilation of the list?

I'm an original fan who bought the 45's when they came out, and the mono albums. I later replaced the mono albums with stereo and found different mixes. My biggest disapointment there was I HEAR A SYMPHONY, which had the background vocals muffled.

There was a revelation here once that Flo and Mary were not on STOP IN THE NAME OF LOVE. I forgot what conclusion the forumn came to. Were they on the original 45 release? Was it sweetened with other voices? Did they actually record the song and then have their voices replaced by others?
I read the Andantees were added in the mix with Flo and Mary.?

[TheMotownManiac]

I read the Andantees were added in the mix with Flo and Mary.?
The conclusion is that Mary and flo are not on the 45 at all, but were added to the stereo mix for the album. This came directly from George and Andy…… Now a few people, who don’t want this to be true, are ignoring what George and Andy are saying, in this case only mind you, and are clinging to the fact that Louvain said that they were all there together with Mary and Florence when they did that session. What she doesn’t know, is what was used in the final mix. I agree with George and Andy I do not hear mary and Flo on it. I am positive that I hear Marlene on back in my arms again and symphony also.

[PeaceNHarmony]

The conclusion is that Mary and flo are not on the 45 at all, but were added to the stereo mix for the album. This came directly from George and Andy…… Now a few people, who don’t want this to be true, are ignoring what George and Andy are saying, in this case only mind you, and are clinging to the fact that Louvain said that they were all there together with Mary and Florence when they did that session. What she doesn’t know, is what was used in the final mix. I agree with George and Andy I do not hear mary and Flo on it. I am positive that I hear Marlene on back in my arms again and symphony also.
I wonder if the technology available at the time was advanced enough to smoothly [[and inexpensively!) edit single voices in and out of mixes. Anyone know?

[bradsupremes]

Rob, Mary’s fundraiser was in Massachusetts that weekend but she still could have made several of the shows after her public comment if she chose to. She was advised to re-think the situation, and did.

Mary actually was out of country in Ukraine for a fundraiser for disabled children.

[floyjoy678]

The conclusion is that Mary and flo are not on the 45 at all, but were added to the stereo mix for the album. This came directly from George and Andy…… Now a few people, who don’t want this to be true, are ignoring what George and Andy are saying, in this case only mind you, and are clinging to the fact that Louvain said that they were all there together with Mary and Florence when they did that session. What she doesn’t know, is what was used in the final mix. I agree with George and Andy I do not hear mary and Flo on it. I am positive that I hear Marlene on back in my arms again and symphony also.

The 45 version and album version sound exactly the same except that one is in mono and the other is in stereo lol

There are an andante or two on symphony. Flo's definitely there, she sticks out over whoever else is there. Back in my arms again, I once heard a rumour Mary's not on the song but I only hear two voices: Florence Ballard and Mary Wilson. Hdh said they used additional singers sometimes but always with Mary and Florence.

[Boogiedown]

Hi Ran. Sorry to be so delayed in this response process, I don't have daily access to my computer. The thread's moved on but I've just a couple more comments so I'll give this one more round with my conclusion , this time I'm first black, and then green .





"Why "of course"?"

By most- if not all- accounts, everyone in the know could see that Tommy couldn't be trusted. So I would think it smart on Diana's part that if Tommy was attempting to act as a go between, she would wisely avoid that situation.
Quite confusing indeed. You've said that Tommy is out of the house with the divorce pending , so I don't understand how he has any say or would even be around to have any say. Besides wouldn't our maturing Diana know that the thing to do at this point would be to let lawyers on both sides handle it.
"Also, he and Flo are still together at this point, but they are losing the house . So , Tommy doesn't work?"

I've been under the impression that Flo losing the house happened after she filed for divorce from Tommy, so no, I don't believe they were together during this juncture. Cue back to the part in a previous post where I say that Tommy trying to intercept Diana's check doesn't make sense. ya That's one of the reasons why. As for Tommy and working, I think he always kept a job. I don't recall anything about him being out of work, except maybe a period of time after he was no longer Flo's manager.
This is troubling, no matter the mother, a working man allows his three children to lose their home, to wind up out in the streets? Does this sound like a fatherly person you'd want to reunite with later?
"Very odd. [[and not very mature) Why not ??"

Another part of the story that doesn't make sense. And this will tie into the part where you questioned my remark about Florence being unaware of Diana offering assistance. Flo told Peter Benjaminson that if Diana were ever down on her luck and needed anything that Flo would do whatever she could. But Flo supposed that Diana didn't feel the same way, implying that she believed Diana knew she was having difficulties but didn't try to help. I'm taking Flo's words on this. If Diana did attempt to offer help, Florence never knew about it. If Flo didn't know about it , how did Diana go about attempting to help exactly ? Seems like all you do is chase down the mortgage company and pay them the damn mortgage. This calls into question Maxine writing in her book that Flo refused to answer Diana's calls. Other than Maxine flat out lying, the only other explanation for her version of events is the mixing up of time periods. Maxine's story jumps all over the place in her book, and there are times when it's apparent that the timeline she created was a bit off. So I'm thinking any story where Diana is calling and Flo is refusing to take the call may have happened while Flo was still a Supreme and shit had gotten crazy. Although there is one other scenario that I just thought about: Flo claimed that prior to her and Diana's last conversation in 1975, the last time the two of them spoke was in 1971. 1971 was also when Flo sued Motown, naming her former singing partners in the suit, including her claim that Diana maliciously ousted her from the group. Could be that Diana called Flo about the suit and for awhile she dodged her calls before finally speaking. Or maybe they spoke on the phone and Flo didn't like what Diana had to say and when Diana kept trying, Flo refused the calls. At this point Maxine is dead, Flo is dead, so the only other person who could possibly shed factual light here is Diana. Boogie you may be right about the story being twisted.:D sure seems like it!

"I would say this claimed house saving effort [[while if true was quite mature on Diana's part) sounds about as halfhearted as Diana's current search for Cindy."

I don't believe Diana ever does anything halfhearted, not when it comes to helping people. It's the one part of her life I wish people talked about more. But! , you have said earlier in this thread that you believe Diana is being truthful when she claims she's looked but can't find Cindy. You also said its very easy these days to find somebody if you've got the resources to do so [[as Diana would). So for Diana to look and not find her = half-hearted effort .
It just doesn't add up for me that someone who is really trying to pay a mortgage can't pull it off. [[especially if they started the conversation with, "Hi This is Diana Ross")

"Doesn't seem like the cards were going to line up. Besides all the obstacles you've mentioned, she was going to be a mother for years and years yet. And she'd have to once again contend with that historically abusive husband [[ who seems to have heroically reentered the family picture when there was new found hope and new found money. Did this guy now have a job ?)"

It wasn't in the cards because the woman died several months later. I'm curious to know what you think she should have been doing in order to label her intention to get back into singing as "in the cards" probably everything she wasn't . I would never advise anyone to jump right into anything of that significance. And having a spouse who clearly was unreliable would be the last reason for Florence to leave those children. LOL Well you make my point . Tommy is a big part of the problem here. see below.



And bad decisions does not negate a person's maturity. Florence was an abused woman in the 1970s. Where abused women go, she was the rule, not the exception. Domestic abuse is much more widely understood today and yet 10 million women annually are victims of it. Returning to an abusive spouse doesn't denote a period of mature growth no more than Diana's alcoholism and drunk driving charge at 50 something suddenly made her an immature woman. Uh , yes that does. On both counts , Diana' and Flo's. Now if your position is that once mature always mature decisions, then we'll have to agree to disagree as I do not believe that's even possible. well if you can be mature and still do immature things , doesn't that render being mature useless.

"And returning this to your initial point about how much more mature Flo had become by then , how much more resolved , and therefore ready to now get back into the swing of things, sorry, I just don't see it and its especially this whole Tommy thing that can't be easily ignored here ."

For me Tommy can be easily ignored. see above If anything Tommy's presence would've been even more motivation to try again at a singing career since he so obviously loved the potential meal ticket. as in "Get out there and sing Flo or I'll beat the s*%t out of ya!" Bottom line for me is that at age 32 Flo was figuring things out. She received mental help [[something most people, let alone Black women, in the 70s didn't dare think about doing), she was reconciling old relationships, she was singing again, once she was back in the money. But it was that performance that I think nailed it. She knew where her place was and I suspect that if death hadn't found her so early, we would have heard a bit more from the great Florence Ballard.

OK I've heard your viewpoint Ran and I'm not going to come to same conclusion. I see little here that favors Florence making a comeback. In the first place , a comeback to what ? She has no history as a solo artist and nothing to offer as such. She's not even bankable as a former Supreme , that title being stripped from her, and besides, looking around, who is wooing former Supremes to make them into stars? ABC Records did try and the results were so abysmal they couldn't even ante up one album worthy of release. The singles released flopped. [[I have not heard these songs . Why are they bad?) This is Flo's resume at this point: A firing from Motown , a failed solo contract, and five years of doing nothing vocally. She's got a history of drinking , and personal issues. Is she clean? Is she fit mentally, physically ? Is she?

Don't know the details of this one benefit performance she finally did , but who can say how impressive it was or wasn't. How big was the crowd ? How big the production, how many songs ? Who was there ? No offers flooded in from it and eight more uneventful months pass.

So, Flo tells Diana she's ready to sing, and that indicates a magic switch has been activated. She's ready. However, she's still in Detroit , she's still a mother of three, she's advancing into her thirties, she's still indulging Tommy, but maybe she meant ready to go back to singing in a more realistic way, as you said above, it wouldn't be advisable for her to jump right into it. She's going to have to reinvent herself from the ground up. Maybe Flo could find work as a studio session singer, or maybe as a backup singer for a touring act . And even at that level, I say maybe.
But as a prime time headliner? as "FLORENCE BALLARD"? I think its going to take a miracle.

[RanRan79]

OK I've heard your viewpoint Ran and I'm not going to come to same conclusion.

That's quite alright Boogie. Like I said before, we don't have to agree with each other. It was just cool enough to be able to go back and forth with ideas. I'm sure the one thing we can absolutely agree on is that Florence left the world way too soon.


[[I have not heard these songs. Why are they bad?)

As far as the singles go, Flo's first single "It Doesn't Matter" was an okay song but it didn't seem right for Flo's voice. Some have supposed it was more Diana's style and that was what the label was looking for. There's an alternate unreleased version that IMO has Flo approaching the song a bit more in her own style, and that's the version I prefer.

Flo's second single "Love Aint Love" was very good and most fans agree that it was a hit that never was. [[It actually managed to make a few regional playlists at the time.) But without the company push, possible backlash from Gordy, and Flo getting in her own way, the single tanked.

As far as the rest of her recordings at ABC, IMO they were hit and miss. [[The writer Nelson George refers to Flo's version of "Goin Out of My Head" as superior to Little Anthony's. The song itself is one of my all time favs by anyone, but I wouldn't call Flo's version "superior" to the original. But she does a fantastic rendition.) A few gems, a few clunkers. Definitely a singer trying to find her footing.