'Production of a Lifetime: Clive Davis and Whitney Houston'

[PeaceNHarmony]

From Sunday's NY Times. Avoid reading if you don't care for the truth.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/30/style/whitney-houston-clive-davis-sexuality.html

[sansradio]

Thanks for the link, PNH. I feel a profound sadness all over again after reading it, coupled with nausea about Mr. Davis.

[PeaceNHarmony]

Thanks for the link, PNH. I feel a profound sadness all over again after reading it, coupled with nausea about Mr. Davis.
Exactly my feeling. And I don't think we can leave Cissy out of the mix, either.

[smallworld]

The quotes from Rosie O'Donnell are interesting. Hard to dismiss when O'Donnell certainly doesn't need a cheque for talking about Houston or anyone else.

[PeaceNHarmony]

The quotes from Rosie O'Donnell are interesting. Hard to dismiss when O'Donnell certainly doesn't need a cheque for talking about Houston or anyone else.
I have to completely agree. Though not really a Rosie fan I have to say she stated things very well here.

[Boogiedown]

Thanks for the link, PNH. I feel a profound sadness all over again after reading it, coupled with nausea about Mr. Davis.

Very good read .
Don't quite get the hostility toward Clive Davis though , his crime is turning Whitney Houston into a superstar?

[sansradio]

Very good read .
Don't quite get the hostility toward Clive Davis though , his crime is turning Whitney Houston into a superstar?

Davis should have cancelled that Grammy party, plain and simple. Her body wasn’t even cold upstairs. It struck me as just this side of demonic.

Also, his business practices leave a sour taste in my mouth. “Un-Blackening” Whitney’s vocals are just the tip of that iceberg.

[Boogiedown]

That had to be a tough decision. A really tough decision. A lot goes into it and its been a growing tradition of his. You'll have to forgive me for not knowing all the whole Grammy party particulars that night . Was Whitney being particularly honored at it? Was she to perform? Did those invited still attend?
As far as his "unblackening" Whitney's voice, I'm not sure what that means , or how it's done? Was that said in the article?

And I don't know which business practices you mean particularly ?...
... I know he wasn't a saint , but as gets said around here a lot, 'who was?'

A sad sad tragedy for sure .

[Boogiedown]

sansradio,

I just read a bit more in wiki and I can't defend his decision to go ahead with holding the event. Hopefully he saw it as paying Whitney tribute as he claimed. But it is creepy.

[sansradio]

sansradio,

I just read a bit more in wiki and I can't defend his decision to go ahead with holding the event. Hopefully he saw it as paying Whitney tribute as he claimed. But it is creepy.

Beyond. What kind of person does that?

As to “un-Blackening,” that was a matter of Clive simply making Whitney re-record tracks he deemed too soulful for pop radio, a practice that raises more than a few African-American eyebrows.

The above article details the business practices I find abhorrent [[e.g., billing his son’s bar mitzvah to Columbia under the guise of Liza Minnelli’s budget account). He also has/had a penchant for jettisoning his artists for “the next big thing” consistently and without compunction. I understand that this is standard practice, but Clive strikes me as particularly unscrupulous in this regard. To wit, he unceremoniously dumped the fabulous Phyllis Hyman for the equally incredible Angela Bofill after he’d had his fill, then dumped Angie for Whitney.

[PeaceNHarmony]

Beyond. What kind of person does that?

As to “un-Blackening,” that was a matter of Clive simply making Whitney re-record tracks he deemed too soulful for pop radio, a practice that raises more than a few African-American eyebrows.

The above article details the business practices I find abhorrent [[e.g., billing his son’s bar mitzvah to Columbia under the guise of Liza Minnelli’s budget account). He also has/had a penchant for jettisoning his artists for “the next big thing” consistently and without compunction. I understand that this is standard practice, but Clive strikes me as particularly unscrupulous in this regard. To wit, he unceremoniously dumped the fabulous Phyllis Hyman for the equally incredible Angela Bofill after he’d had his fill, then dumped Angie for Whitney.
Davis had/has a talent for the NBT as you say, and has helped some others [[my beloved Carly Simon comes to mind) to second phases in their careers. That said, he's still a fairly sleazy guy for the reasons you mentioned and many more. He's created dozens of truly bad lps by artists that deserved better [[the Rod Stewart 'songbook' lps, recent Barry Manilow karoke stuff, etc) but they do sell. I like Melissa Manchester's comment best, that Davis wanted 'contemporary' while she wanted timeless.

[Bluebrock]

Maybe he was heartless to go ahead with the party, but at the end of the day Clive Davis was a businessman and not a therapist. I am sure he was quite fond of Whitney initially but he never claimed to be an Uncle kind of mentor. Merely a professional colleague. I know both Phyllis Hyman and Angela Bofill had less than flattering things to say about Clive Davis but i am only speaking from the outside. I only met Clive Davis once,but i found him to be very enjoyable and knowledgable company.
In the cold light of the day it does seem like a cold hearted decision to go ahead with the party, but perhaps it was just not possible to cancel it at such short notice.

[smallworld]

Unblackening Whitney Houston's vocals?!

Surely, Whitney Houston's music was pop by virtue of the musical backings she was given - I Wanna Dance With Somebody, How Will I Know etc.

If Clive Davis was all about "the next big thing", why did he sign Dionne Warwick and Aretha Franklin? The man was all about making pop hits. I can understand criticism of his lack of artistic investment but if he made his intentions clear, how can complaints be lodged later?

[Guy]

I don't understand the controversy over Clive going forward with the party. Other artists were being honored that evening, I believe Diana Ross and Lionel Richie were being honored. Whitney would have been a guest but wasn't in the program. It would have been stranger, for me, if he cancelled the long-planned, expensive event that each year precedes the Grammys. And disrespectful to the heritage artists who were scheduled to be honored and those that had planned performances. In that industry, the show must go on.

I was devastated by the news of Whitney's passing but still went to see Roberta Flack that evening.

[PeaceNHarmony]

I don't understand the controversy over Clive going forward with the party. Other artists were being honored that evening, I believe Diana Ross and Lionel Richie were being honored. Whitney would have been a guest but wasn't in the program. It would have been stranger, for me, if he cancelled the long-planned, expensive event that each year precedes the Grammys. And disrespectful to the heritage artists who were scheduled to be honored and those that had planned performances. In that industry, the show must go on.

I was devastated by the news of Whitney's passing but still went to see Roberta Flack that evening.
I think perhaps it's the concept that Houston was laying dead in the same building while the party went on that freaks some out ... I waffle on the decision myself. But in reality it was an immediate decision Davis had to make and so be it.

[Boogiedown]

Beyond. What kind of person does that?

As to “un-Blackening,” that was a matter of Clive simply making Whitney re-record tracks he deemed too soulful for pop radio, a practice that raises more than a few African-American eyebrows.
still don't know what this means? which tracks exactly? any live examples of Whitney singing this way?


He also has/had a penchant for jettisoning his artists for “the next big thing” consistently and without compunction. I understand that this is standard practice, but Clive strikes me as particularly unscrupulous in this regard.
To wit, he unceremoniously dumped the fabulous Phyllis Hyman for the equally incredible Angela Bofill after he’d had his fill, then dumped Angie for Whitney.

I count four albums for Phyllis on Clive's label over five year's time and seven for Angela over seven year's time. Seems ample opportunity ?



https://soulfuldetroit.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Guy https://soulfuldetroit.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png [[https://soulfuldetroit.com/showthread.php?p=417517#post417517)

I don't understand the controversy over Clive going forward with the party. Other artists were being honored that evening, I believe Diana Ross and Lionel Richie were being honored. Whitney would have been a guest but wasn't in the program. It would have been stranger, for me, if he cancelled the long-planned, expensive event that each year precedes the Grammys. And disrespectful to the heritage artists who were scheduled to be honored and those that had planned performances. In that industry, the show must go on.

I was devastated by the news of Whitney's passing but still went to see Roberta Flack that evening.

In the little research I've done , this isn't quite right. There are no honorees involved in this event. It really is meant to be a party , something Clive Davis has created to provide some oomph within the music community and add some flair to the Grammy Awards. Many big names have performed at it including Whitney although she wasn't scheduled to that night . Diana Ross was there that evening along with Berry Gordy as guests . Lionel Richie made an appearance on Larry King where he commented on Whitney's death .


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=74&v=VvyzdtgTg_4

"Whitney is here as a civilian this year. Her career was launched at this party .... I would say she must have done this party eight or nine times at different stages [[of her career)"

[Guy]

In the little research I've done , this isn't quite right. There are no honorees involved in this event. It really is meant to be a party , something Clive Davis has created to provide some oomph within the music community and add some flair to the Grammy Awards. Many big names have performed at it including Whitney although she wasn't scheduled to that night . Diana Ross was there that evening along with Berry Gordy as guests . Lionel Richie made an appearance on Larry King where he commented on Whitney's death .


Miss Ross herself was interviewed that evening on the red carpet for the Clive Davis event. She confirmed that she was being honored at the party but added that she would not be able to enjoy it because of Whitney's tragic death. Clive has also spoken of honoring or paying tribute to specific artists at the event.

[sansradio]

still don't know what this means? which tracks exactly? any live examples of Whitney singing this way?



I count four albums for Phyllis on Clive's label over five year's time and seven for Angela over seven year's time. Seems ample opportunity ?


In the recording of the first two albums, Clive had her dial back her riffing considerably; since she's Cissy's girl, she couldn't help the churchiness that inevitably surfaced in her singing. One example is "How Will I Know?"; you may recall two different versions. After the modulation that leads into the final choruses, Nip sings a Gladys-esque "hey-hey-hey-hey" on the original album pressing; for the single edit, it was replaced by a Diana-esque coo. Of course, in her later work after she'd established herself, she was given free reign to be as soulful as she [[and the producers) wanted [her] to be. Clive had a stealth game plan in the early days for her to conquer the pop market at any cost, which certainly paid off.

As to Bofill's and Hyman's output for Clive, fair enough. I guess they were less malleable than Houston was vis-à-vis his pop approach.

[Boogiedown]

Hi Sans thanks for your response! You've gotten me really curious about all this so
I labored through both versions of HOW WILL I KNOW comparing them line for line . From what I hear: they are exactly the same in every way including Whitney's vocals [[with nothing redone studio wise) --- except : The official release has a longer intro attached to the front and so apparently to make up for it time-wise an edit was done [[only one) toward the end so that the sax solo jumps in a few lines earlier thus taking out that one Gladys Knight part [[ it does sound like Gladys! ) I believe it was just the consequence of the edit and not because Clive Davis demanded "get that GD Gladys Knight part out of there!!!" The Diana-esque coo is heard in both versions as the sax begins so it isn't replacing anything . I'm going to say it's just song editing with nothing nefarious involved imo.

so here's the original and in the next post I'll post the actual released version:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0j8DZTkY6o

If I'm understanding you correctly: "Gladys" can be heard at 3:13 and "Diana" is heard at 3:25

[Boogiedown]

so now in this, the released version , "Gladys" is gone , but "Diana" is still there at 3:34


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3-hY-hlhBg

[Boogiedown]

Miss Ross herself was interviewed that evening on the red carpet for the Clive Davis event. She confirmed that she was being honored at the party but added that she would not be able to enjoy it because of Whitney's tragic death. Clive has also spoken of honoring or paying tribute to specific artists at the event.

OK , I looked into this more , and you are correct Guy, Diana Ross was honored that night , as was Richard Branson. There is no official Clive Davis Achievement Award or any such thing presented afaik so don't know if it's mainly just a toast and a "hip hip hurray" toward these two? ? Apparently Berry Gordy was there so I'm guessing he said something , would love to know what it was!
I don't see any connection between the scheduled artists that performed that evening to Diana Ross , but it seems she's been honored before at this thing. Here's something from the 2005 party:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UMUHnhL83k

looks pretty loose , but hey it's a party!!
[[Love the way those guys stand there contributing nothing all the while hogging her space!:p)

[reese]

In the recording of the first two albums, Clive had her dial back her riffing considerably; since she's Cissy's girl, she couldn't help the churchiness that inevitably surfaced in her singing. One example is "How Will I Know?"; you may recall two different versions. After the modulation that leads into the final choruses, Nip sings a Gladys-esque "hey-hey-hey-hey" on the original album pressing; for the single edit, it was replaced by a Diana-esque coo.

I remember this specifically. I first heard Whitney perform HOW WILL I KNOW on SOUL TRAIN in 1985. At this point, YOU GIVE GOOD LOVE was her current release. Since she performed it on the show, I figured HOW WILL I KNOW would be the next release and was surprised when it turned out to be SAVING ALL OF MY LOVE FOR YOU.

I bought Whitney's album [[on vinyl) and as you say, there was the "Hey-Hey-Hey-Hey" after the break. But when the song was released as a single and on video, it was replaced by an "Oooo." Even when she sang the song live on some tv shows, like the MTV Awards and the American Music Awards, she sang the "Oooo." Although on the latter show, she did some some great gospelish adlibs during the "If he loves me, if he loves me not" section that still makes it, IMO, her best performance of the song.

The next year [[1986), I bought my first cd player and started replacing all of my vinyl. I bought her debut album on cd and was disappointed that the "Hey Hey Hey Hey" was missing, especially since I had given my vinyl away. Each cd of hers that I have bought subsequently has that "Ooo" during "HOW WILL I KNOW." I even bought another copy of the debut album on vinyl hoping it would be an early pressing. No such luck. The only "Hey Hey Hey Hey" version I now have is a VHS of her performing it on SOUL TRAIN.

[sansradio]

Hi Sans thanks for your response! You've gotten me really curious about all this so
I labored through both versions of HOW WILL I KNOW comparing them line for line . From what I hear: they are exactly the same in every way including Whitney's vocals [[with nothing redone studio wise) --- except : The official release has a longer intro attached to the front and so apparently to make up for it time-wise an edit was done [[only one) toward the end so that the sax solo jumps in a few lines earlier thus taking out that one Gladys Knight part [[ it does sound like Gladys! ) I believe it was just the consequence of the edit and not because Clive Davis demanded "get that GD Gladys Knight part out of there!!!" The Diana-esque coo is heard in both versions as the sax begins so it isn't replacing anything . I'm going to say it's just song editing with nothing nefarious involved imo.

so here's the original and in the next post I'll post the actual released version:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0j8DZTkY6o

If I'm understanding you correctly: "Gladys" can be heard at 3:13 and "Diana" is heard at 3:25

Thank you for responding as well! Actually, the section in question is at 3:37 in the first of your posts and 3:46 in the second [[#1 "Gladys", #2 "Diana.")

[sansradio]

I remember this specifically. I first heard Whitney perform HOW WILL I KNOW on SOUL TRAIN in 1985. At this point, YOU GIVE GOOD LOVE was her current release. Since she performed it on the show, I figured HOW WILL I KNOW would be the next release and was surprised when it turned out to be SAVING ALL OF MY LOVE FOR YOU.

I bought Whitney's album [[on vinyl) and as you say, there was the "Hey-Hey-Hey-Hey" after the break. But when the song was released as a single and on video, it was replaced by an "Oooo." Even when she sang the song live on some tv shows, like the MTV Awards and the American Music Awards, she sang the "Oooo." Although on the latter show, she did some some great gospelish adlibs during the "If he loves me, if he loves me not" section that still makes it, IMO, her best performance of the song.

The next year [[1986), I bought my first cd player and started replacing all of my vinyl. I bought her debut album on cd and was disappointed that the "Hey Hey Hey Hey" was missing, especially since I had given my vinyl away. Each cd of hers that I have bought subsequently has that "Ooo" during "HOW WILL I KNOW." I even bought another copy of the debut album on vinyl hoping it would be an early pressing. No such luck. The only "Hey Hey Hey Hey" version I now have is a VHS of her performing it on SOUL TRAIN.

My LORD, didn't she rip that AMA performance?!!? My sister and I watched our VHS recording of that religiously and sang the bridge that way even when the studio version was playing! You're right, it's her best rendition of that song and one of her finest moments of all time.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W029a0tSyls

[reese]

My LORD, didn't she rip that AMA performance?!!? My sister and I watched our VHS recording of that religiously and sang the bridge that way even when the studio version was playing! You're right, it's her best rendition of that song and one of her finest moments of all time.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W029a0tSyls

She certainly did, as she did the following year when she joined her mother and brother to sing WONDERFUL COUNSELOR.

[sansradio]

She certainly did, as she did the following year when she joined her mother and brother to sing WONDERFUL COUNSELOR.

Yes, Lord!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Z_EsWkcs5w

[Boogiedown]

ah yes , sorry sans, I got my citings messed up :rolleyes:. But my conclusion is still the same , there's one re-edit, such that "Gladys" winds up getting eliminated, but Diana remains at the same place in each version, at the conclusion of the sax solo. There is no replacing one for the other, so I find your assertion to be ....well, :rolleyes:
I might even mention that after the sax solo and for the remainder of the song , I find the backup singers especially there at the end to be quite gospel-like.
There's even the line: I say a prayer...

Maybe you have other examples ?

BTW , editing out Gladys , imo, big mistake!