Did Mary and Flo Ever Perform As A Duo ?

[milven]

I kind of know the answer to this, but, in reading an obituary on Bobby Taylor, I read this:

As The Complete Motown Singles Vol. 8 describes, when lead singer Tommy Melton left the Bachelors, Taylor accepted the group's offer to be his replacement. From the mid-'60s, their line-up now firm, they were working at Vancouver supper club the Cave, also known for its late shows as the Elegant Parlour. One night, they opened for Mary Wilson and Florence Ballard of the Supremes, who were so impressed that they called Berry Gordy, who flew from Detroit to see them and avowed to make them stars.

Renamed as Bobby Taylor and the Vancouvers, they arrived in Detroit just as the city was engulfed by its infamous race riots. By November, Gordy himself was producing 'Does Your Mama,' which made its R&B chart entry in April 1968. It helped the group to a short period in the limelight before they went their separate ways, partly because of what happened to Taylor next. The following year, he would be finding a different kind of success.


I'm guessing that they opened for the Supremes. Wonder why it said that they opened for Mary and Flo.
Lots of Supremes fans here. Anyone know?

Here is link to full article:

http://www.udiscovermusic.com/news/death-bobby-taylor-motown-artist-championed-jackson-5

[marv2]

Mary and Flo discovered Bobby and the Vancouvers. Mary is the one who insisted that Berry come down to the club they were playing in Vancouver [["The Cave" maybe) and give them a listen.

I am pretty sure I know why that story in the article reads the way it does if they got it from Bobby...............

[marv2]

Weldon McDougal was a member here until he passed several years ago. A great guy and I miss him too.

[captainjames]

I know Mary and Flo are credited with bringing him to Motown or at least telling Gordy. There is probably little to no chance they went on that stage without Diana under Motown after 1964.

[marv2]

I know Mary and Flo are credited with bringing him to Motown or at least telling Gordy. There is probably little to no chance they went on that stage without Diana under Motown after 1964.


Diana Ross did not even want to go and hear Bobby Taylor & the Vancouvers. Berry Gordy forced her to go along with him and she sat there frowning at the group and acting very rude.........according to Bobby. There is more to this story, but it would cause a problem for diana ross fans, so I will refrain from telling it. So whoever wants to jump......feel free to do so. I am sure there are one or two of you all ready. 1,2,3 Go for it!

[captainjames]

In fact I just checked, Mary and Flo never did a show without Diana. No Diana............. no Supremes.

[marv2]

In fact I just checked, Mary and Flo never did a show without Diana. No Diana............. no Supremes.


That is not why the story in the article is written that way. That was just a question Milven had. I see this all went over your head.

PS, If No Diana, no Supremes then who recorded "Up the Ladder to the Roof", "Stone Love", "Nathan Jones", "Floy Joy" "He's My Man" etc.etc? That's right! The Supremes did!

[marv2]

In fact I just checked, Mary and Flo never did a show without Diana. No Diana............. no Supremes.

Also, if you checked, Diane has never done a Supremes show without Mary. Oh she tried but it got cancelled............

[PeaceNHarmony]

Ummm ..... 50 years later .... really? I think someone would have noticed.

[luke]

And the Motowner who reported Telma Hopkins took Diana's place with Flo and Mary for some shows, and there was no problem. Just reporting. Stay calm lol l!

[jobeterob]

No one outside of this forum even knows who Mary Wilson is - well except her family, Pedro and tom jones; well Marv of course

[luke]

I think you need to check the threads and posts per the people who love Mary and Flo and Cindy[[and Diana) Why try to diminish Ms Wilson?

[captainjames]

And the Motowner who reported Telma Hopkins took Diana's place with Flo and Mary for some shows, and there was no problem. Just reporting. Stay calm lol l!

So Sorry but Telma Hopkins has stated that never happen.
So back to the original statement - Mary and Flo singing without Diana in concert or rec hall or ballpark, garage, basement or sock party after 1964 and under Motown......it did not happen.

[luke]

No need to be sorry. Where is her statement? Motown executive's is documented in book.

[captainjames]

We have discussed this before check the threads under Thread: Telma Hopkins And The Surpemes!?
Also, the documented proof you are referring to is undocumented account from a bunch of crap.

[marv2]

And the Motowner who reported Telma Hopkins took Diana's place with Flo and Mary for some shows, and there was no problem. Just reporting. Stay calm lol l!

That's right I remember that. I also remember seeing a CD on Amazon that had only Mary and Flo on cover. LOL!

[marv2]

No one outside of this forum even knows who Mary Wilson is - well except her family, Pedro and tom jones; well Marv of course

Oh go back to sleep with that old tired talk. Shouldn't you be somewhere worrying about the opiate and heroin crisis going on up there?

[marv2]

I think you need to check the threads and posts per the people who love Mary and Flo and Cindy[[and Diana) Why try to diminish Ms Wilson?

He's just being silly. Trying to get your goat. He himself has been talking about Mary Wilson for 14 years non-stop on here. Jobeterob, she don't want you. She says you're not her type! LOL!!!!

[marv2]

So Sorry but Telma Hopkins has stated that never happen.
So back to the original statement - Mary and Flo singing without Diana in concert or rec hall or ballpark, garage, basement or sock party after 1964 and under Motown......it did not happen.

Mary has been singing all over the World for over 40 years without Diana Ross!

[marv2]

I kind of know the answer to this, but, in reading an obituary on Bobby Taylor, I read this:

As The Complete Motown Singles Vol. 8 describes, when lead singer Tommy Melton left the Bachelors, Taylor accepted the group's offer to be his replacement. From the mid-'60s, their line-up now firm, they were working at Vancouver supper club the Cave, also known for its late shows as the Elegant Parlour. One night, they opened for Mary Wilson and Florence Ballard of the Supremes, who were so impressed that they called Berry Gordy, who flew from Detroit to see them and avowed to make them stars.

Renamed as Bobby Taylor and the Vancouvers, they arrived in Detroit just as the city was engulfed by its infamous race riots. By November, Gordy himself was producing 'Does Your Mama,' which made its R&B chart entry in April 1968. It helped the group to a short period in the limelight before they went their separate ways, partly because of what happened to Taylor next. The following year, he would be finding a different kind of success.


I'm guessing that they opened for the Supremes. Wonder why it said that they opened for Mary and Flo.
Lots of Supremes fans here. Anyone know?

Here is link to full article:

http://www.udiscovermusic.com/news/death-bobby-taylor-motown-artist-championed-jackson-5

Bobby told the story and that is where the person that wrote the article got that part about Mary and Flo and how he and his band opened for them. Bobby was not a fan of Diana Ross before and after she stole his credit for the Jackson Five. Who could blame him?

[RanRan79]

Mary and Flo discovered Bobby and the Vancouvers. Mary is the one who insisted that Berry come down to the club they were playing in Vancouver [["The Cave" maybe) and give them a listen.

I am pretty sure I know why that story in the article reads the way it does if they got it from Bobby...............

The story has always gone that Flo and Mary caught Bobby and the Vancouvers act one night and turned Berry Gordy on to them. Florence and Mary have always gotten credit for discovering the group for Motown. Other than the liner notes of Bobby's Motown anthology mentioning that later Diana Ross also caught their act, I've never seen her name mentioned in conjunction with the band's discovery. That, I'm willing to bet money, is the reason Diana's name is not mentioned in the referenced article.

[RanRan79]

Diana Ross did not even want to go and hear Bobby Taylor & the Vancouvers. Berry Gordy forced her to go along with him and she sat there frowning at the group and acting very rude.........according to Bobby. There is more to this story, but it would cause a problem for diana ross fans, so I will refrain from telling it. So whoever wants to jump......feel free to do so. I am sure there are one or two of you all ready. 1,2,3 Go for it!

All kinds of crazy happenings were going on with this bunch back in the day. I'm sure the truth is probably stranger than the fiction. [[Isn't it always?) But it's amazing to me that of all the people whose paths I've crossed who have worked with or spent time around old Motowners, somehow you're the one that everyone couldn't resist telling their Diana Ross horror stories to? I mean how is it that you- someone who obviously has a disdain for the woman- somehow lucks up in being the one that gets to hear all these Diana Ross stories? What was it about you that supposedly had all these people coming up to you to give you the inside dirt? Is it possible that you just have that kind of luck? I almost want to believe you when you tell these stories because the alternative is so much more frightening. LOL

[RanRan79]

And the Motowner who reported Telma Hopkins took Diana's place with Flo and Mary for some shows, and there was no problem. Just reporting. Stay calm lol l!

Who would believe such a ridiculous story? Did you hear about the time Johnnie Jackson stepped in for Michael in the J5 and no one batted an eye?:rolleyes:

[RanRan79]

No one outside of this forum even knows who Mary Wilson is - well except her family, Pedro and tom jones; well Marv of course

I think Mary's touring schedule, project involvement, and the amount of interviews she is asked to do annually would beg to differ.

[RanRan79]

We have discussed this before check the threads under Thread: Telma Hopkins And The Surpemes!?
Also, the documented proof you are referring to is undocumented account from a bunch of crap.

I can't even believe such a tale wouldn't be immediately dismissed! You mean to tell me people were buying that malarkey? It doesn't even make sense. If Diana could be replaced so easily onstage, there wouldn't have ever been a need to turn the Supremes into DRATS and then send Diana off into solo stardom. Why not use Telma instead?:rolleyes:

[RanRan79]

There is one documented case of Flo and Mary performing as a duo on stage after the Supremes became international singing stars. When Diana had her health crisis onstage in Boston and was whisked away, Florence and Mary continued their performance without her of the song they were in the middle of.

Marv did anyone tell you that no one noticed Diana had even left the stage? LMAO

[marv2]

There is one documented case of Flo and Mary performing as a duo on stage after the Supremes became international singing stars. When Diana had her health crisis onstage in Boston and was whisked away, Florence and Mary continued their performance without her of the song they were in the middle of.

Marv did anyone tell you that no one noticed Diana had even left the stage? LMAO

No I was too young when that happened. I was in grade school and we were probably playing on the playground when that happened LOL!

[marv2]

All kinds of crazy happenings were going on with this bunch back in the day. I'm sure the truth is probably stranger than the fiction. [[Isn't it always?) But it's amazing to me that of all the people whose paths I've crossed who have worked with or spent time around old Motowners, somehow you're the one that everyone couldn't resist telling their Diana Ross horror stories to? I mean how is it that you- someone who obviously has a disdain for the woman- somehow lucks up in being the one that gets to hear all these Diana Ross stories? What was it about you that supposedly had all these people coming up to you to give you the inside dirt? Is it possible that you just have that kind of luck? I almost want to believe you when you tell these stories because the alternative is so much more frightening. LOL

Bobby didn't tell me that story directly. He told the story via an hour long interview he did from Hong Kong on video that was on Youtube and later posted on this forum several years ago. I am a couple of others searched for it again, but it has been taken down. That story came from Bobby himself. He said that she was a "Scrub".

[luke]

The Latin Casino wanted Mary and Cindy to do the show when Diana stormed out.

[RanRan79]

Bobby didn't tell me that story directly. He told the story via an hour long interview he did from Hong Kong on video that was on Youtube and later posted on this forum several years ago. I am a couple of others searched for it again, but it has been taken down. That story came from Bobby himself. He said that she was a "Scrub".

Duly noted.

[RanRan79]

The Latin Casino wanted Mary and Cindy to do the show when Diana stormed out.

I believe you're right Luke, but that would have been the worst show ever. The Supremes show was scheduled right down to the minute. Removing the lead singer would have forced Mary and Cindy to improvise their way through the show. Both were certainly professional enough to do it, but how would it have looked? Who would sing the leads? Would they abandon the choreography? If Diana was too upset to do the show seems like the best case scenario was to cancel the first night and attempt to get through it tomorrow.

[captainjames]

I know the show went on when Jean got sick and Lynda took the lead but never a show without Diana. I seem to remember Diana even saying on TV that there was no stand in for her. I will state it a different way this time....NO Diana ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,no show.
If you don't believe this then ask BG himself.

[marv2]

I know the show went on when Jean got sick and Lynda took the lead but never a show without Diana. I seem to remember Diana even saying on TV that there was no stand in for her. I will state it a different way this time....NO Diana ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,no show.
If you don't believe this then ask BG himself.

When Jean Terrell replaced her she was soooo good I forgot about Diane's last 3 years as a Supreme.

[Bluebrock]

When Jean Terrell replaced her she was soooo good I forgot about Diane's last 3 years as a Supreme.
I very much doubt you are capable of forgetting anything about Diana Ross such is your obsession with her.

[franjoy56]

So Sorry but Telma Hopkins has stated that never happen.
So back to the original statement - Mary and Flo singing without Diana in concert or rec hall or ballpark, garage, basement or sock party after 1964 and under Motown......it did not happen.
I beg differ i. Listen to t supremes concert at t roostertail found on the symphony expended u will hear mary and flo doing people without diana ross yes i said it Was she cut from t track.hmmmm

[RanRan79]

I beg differ i. Listen to t supremes concert at t roostertail found on the symphony expended u will hear mary and flo doing people without diana ross yes i said it Was she cut from t track.hmmmm

Uh Franjoy, are you deaf? LOL The three Supremes are singing "People". Diana is very audible in the harmony.

[PeaceNHarmony]

I beg differ i. Listen to t supremes concert at t roostertail found on the symphony expended u will hear mary and flo doing people without diana ross yes i said it Was she cut from t track.hmmmm
Well that certainly could be so; I haven't heard the track. But I also misinterpreted the question, thinking that it meant an entire concert or other appearance -

[LoveSupreme]

I had a conversation with a friend the other day and we were wondering if people considered The Supremes a duo after the group's name was changed to Diana Ross and The Supremes because technically it was Diana Ross and Mary & Cindy [[both of them being The Supremes).

Did Diana ever introduce them as a separate entity like" Hi, I'm Diana Ross and these are the Supremes".

[blackguy69]

I had a conversation with a friend the other day and we were wondering if people considered The Supremes a duo after the group's name was changed to Diana Ross and The Supremes because technically it was Diana Ross and Mary & Cindy [[both of them being The Supremes).

Did Diana ever introduce them as a separate entity like" Hi, I'm Diana Ross and these are the Supremes".

As far as I know she always she always said that we're the supremes. The only time I ever heard her use Diana Ross and the supremes was the farewell performance

[franjoy56]

Uh Franjoy, are you deaf? LOL The three Supremes are singing "People". Diana is very audible in the harmony. i didnt notice her vocals in the harmony but after listening again i do her ever so slightly. Apparently t. Performance was a showcasr f flo and mary since ross was not featured on any solo lines. That would have been a good time for her to go backstage and cool her vocals off since she carried t lead on all t other songs. I stand corrected but glad to hear mary and flo prominrntly featured in a live show

[RanRan79]

i didnt notice her vocals in the harmony but after listening again i do her ever so slightly. Apparently t. Performance was a showcasr f flo and mary since ross was not featured on any solo lines. That would have been a good time for her to go backstage and cool her vocals off since she carried t lead on all t other songs. I stand corrected but glad to hear mary and flo prominrntly featured in a live show

Diana was still a member of the group. It would not have made sense for her to take a break. The song was mostly a showcase for their harmony. Apparently in 1966 Mary started doing the verse that Diana used to do.

[captainjames]

I have seen many concerts with the ladies and Diana always said "we" are the Supremes or I am Diana Ross and this is Mary Wilson.....etc...and we're the Supremes.

[144man]

I had a conversation with a friend the other day and we were wondering if people considered The Supremes a duo after the group's name was changed to Diana Ross and The Supremes because technically it was Diana Ross and Mary & Cindy [[both of them being The Supremes).

Did Diana ever introduce them as a separate entity like" Hi, I'm Diana Ross and these are the Supremes".

That discussion only arises because of a deficiency in the English language. Correctly calling the group "Diana Ross and the Other Supremes" just sounds stupid.

[detmotownguy]

Diana was still a member of the group. It would not have made sense for her to take a break. The song was mostly a showcase for their harmony. Apparently in 1966 Mary started doing the verse that Diana used to do. they could do harmony better than the rest. I wish they did more. I love the Roostertail concert.

[marv2]

they could do harmony better than the rest. I wish they did more. I love the Roostertail concert.

The were excellent at harmonies as the Primettes and as the young Supremes with Barbara. The producers at Motown and Barbara leaving almost destroy that. Even when the remaining three harmonized....it was Heaven!

[RanRan79]

they could do harmony better than the rest. I wish they did more. I love the Roostertail concert.

They were certainly among the best. A very underrated skill of theirs. I think many of those Supremes records during the Flo years would have been even better if the producers had used Diana in the background harmony. One of my favorites of their harmonies is the background on Kim Weston's "Feel Alright".

[RanRan79]

The were excellent at harmonies as the Primettes and as the young Supremes with Barbara. The producers at Motown and Barbara leaving almost destroy that. Even when the remaining three harmonized....it was Heaven!

I disagree slightly. I think the group got better when Barbara left. It's unfortunate that we don't have any known audio of the group with Betty, so there's nothing to compare that to. But IMO with Barbara in the harmony, they sound like your average teeny bopper girl group. Once Barbara was gone the harmonies seemed to get tighter and more sophisticated, and in many ways set them apart from the competition. In my mind the top best things to happen to the Supremes in the early years were:

1) Milton Jenkins no longer managing them
2) They refused to take "no" for an answer from Motown
3) Barbara left

[sansradio]

They were certainly among the best. A very underrated skill of theirs. I think many of those Supremes records during the Flo years would have been even better if the producers had used Diana in the background harmony. One of my favorites of their harmonies is the background on Kim Weston's "Feel Alright".

I didn't realize The Girls were backing Kim on "Feel Alright." I've been systematically downloading all their background work, but this one escaped me. Thanks for the tip!

[captainjames]

That discussion only arises because of a deficiency in the English language. Correctly calling the group "Diana Ross and the Other Supremes" just sounds stupid.

LOL now that's very well said.

[captainjames]

I disagree slightly. I think the group got better when Barbara left. It's unfortunate that we don't have any known audio of the group with Betty, so there's nothing to compare that to. But IMO with Barbara in the harmony, they sound like your average teeny bopper girl group. Once Barbara was gone the harmonies seemed to get tighter and more sophisticated, and in many ways set them apart from the competition. In my mind the top best things to happen to the Supremes in the early years were:

1) Milton Jenkins no longer managing them
2) They refused to take "no" for an answer from Motown
3) Barbara left

There is just so little to compare it to.

[RanRan79]

I didn't realize The Girls were backing Kim on "Feel Alright." I've been systematically downloading all their background work, but this one escaped me. Thanks for the tip!

No prob Sansradio.

[RanRan79]

There is just so little to compare it to.

I may be misunderstanding the comment, so please straighten me out if necessary, but Barbara recorded quite a bit of material in the early days. The Meet the Supremes expanded is the best source for that. Not to mention the various background vocals for other artists. There's a sharp difference in sound from the background of a "Because I Love Him" and "Time Changes Things". Even during Barbara's tenure, when she apparently missed the "Those DJ Shows" session [[or whatever the issue was there), there's a drastic difference when Barbara is in the harmony and then what Flo and Mary are doing without her on "DJ Shows". Mary wrote that when she first heard Barbara sing it was clear she wasn't great [[which I suspect was Mary trying to tell the truth and remain nice about it). Barbara was a voice they could work with, but to my ears she was nobody's singer. Flo, Diana and Mary could really sing and that becomes even more clear when Barbara is gone.

[marv2]

I disagree slightly. I think the group got better when Barbara left. It's unfortunate that we don't have any known audio of the group with Betty, so there's nothing to compare that to. But IMO with Barbara in the harmony, they sound like your average teeny bopper girl group. Once Barbara was gone the harmonies seemed to get tighter and more sophisticated, and in many ways set them apart from the competition. In my mind the top best things to happen to the Supremes in the early years were:

1) Milton Jenkins no longer managing them
2) They refused to take "no" for an answer from Motown
3) Barbara left

Yeah, but they could not accurately produce three- part harmony after Barbara left which is one of the main reasons they would add the Andantes to the background with Mary and Flo on some records.

[bradsupremes]

Yeah, but they could not accurately produce three- part harmony after Barbara left which is one of the main reasons they would add the Andantes to the background with Mary and Flo on some records.

I don't know why Motown/HDH didn't have Diana record background with Mary & Flo more often like on the first version of "Heat Wave." They did it with the Temptations where all 5 of them went in and did backgrounds and then either Eddie, David or Paul would go in and do the lead.

[marv2]

I don't know why Motown/HDH didn't have Diana record background with Mary & Flo more often like on the first version of "Heat Wave." They did it with the Temptations where all 5 of them went in and did backgrounds and then either Eddie, David or Paul would go in and do the lead.


That is a good question because all 3 of the original Supremes would boast of their great harmonies at times and they were not kidding. For them not to be blood sisters, they sounded incredible when they harmonized together. Mary and Cindy were able to do that with Jean as well.

[detmotownguy]

I don't know why Motown/HDH didn't have Diana record background with Mary & Flo more often like on the first version of "Heat Wave." They did it with the Temptations where all 5 of them went in and did backgrounds and then either Eddie, David or Paul would go in and do the lead. agreed, with Diane's higher register it added an extra dimension to the sound.

[sansradio]

No prob Sansradio.

Just to be clear, is the full title "Feel Alright Tonight"?

[RanRan79]

Yeah, but they could not accurately produce three- part harmony after Barbara left which is one of the main reasons they would add the Andantes to the background with Mary and Flo on some records.

I'd say they couldn't accurately produce it with Barbara either. LOL

[RanRan79]

I don't know why Motown/HDH didn't have Diana record background with Mary & Flo more often like on the first version of "Heat Wave." They did it with the Temptations where all 5 of them went in and did backgrounds and then either Eddie, David or Paul would go in and do the lead.

I said the same thing some posts ago. Perhaps HDH preferred Flo and Mary alone. What's interesting to me is that I think the two are fantastic on their own, like on "Come See About Me". They killed it. Didn't need anyone else help. And they continued to be able to sing at that level throughout 1965. So much great background work that year. But then 1966 rolls around and something is off. They have shining moments like "Satisfaction", but then sound a bit dull on quite a few of those Supremes A Go Go cuts. If there was ever a project where the three Supremes needed to hop into the background together, it was that one. Compare Mary and Flo's fantastic work on "You Keep Me Hangin' On" and then the Andantes great work on "Put Yourself In My Place" with Mary and Flo's dullness on something like "Blowing In the Wind" or "What the World Needs Now", both of which I think would have benefited from Diana singing with them.

[RanRan79]

Just to be clear, is the full title "Feel Alright Tonight"?

Yes that's the one.

[imakicola]

As far as I know she always she always said that we're the supremes. The only time I ever heard her use Diana Ross and the supremes was the farewell performance

Yes she used to always say hello I'm Diana ross and we are the supremes. But ed Sullivan would say here is diana ross and with her the supremes

[sansradio]

Yes that's the one.

Thank ya much, buddy!

[captainjames]

depending on what day it was, Ed would sometimes just say ,,,,,,Here they are ......The Girls.

[sansradio]

depending on what day it was, Ed would sometimes just say ,,,,,,Here they are ......The Girls.

Yep! Who can forget him introducing "Cindy Birdstone"? That Ed was a card.

[TomatoTom123]

Yep! Who can forget him introducing "Cindy Birdstone"? That Ed was a card.

LOL, I found it...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygfSgFcT8I0&app=desktop