Mafia controls mOtOwn

[theboyfromxtown]

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/INTERNATIONAL-TIMES-86-1970-Mafia-control-Tamla-Motown-/150472013846?pt=UK_Magazines&hash=item2308d4b816

Anyone else see this at the time?

It was also the first and only magazine that contained small ads allowing men to meet [[shock horrors) other men!!

[robbert]

Never saw it before, John. It looks to me like a hippy and/or underground magazine, like Hitweek was in Holland at the time [[1970). Rumours about Motown & Mafia were all over the place then, maybe partly because of the big amount of white lawyers that took control of even the musical divisions. Funny that the paper runs a Martha [[with Lois and Sandra) pic instead of a Supremes one.

[soulster]

It's always been true that the mob controlled at least a few of the record companies in the 60s and 70s. It more or less ended in the 80s, but even then, the mob had their hands in to a few things. Sylvia and Joe Robinson's Sugarhill Records comes to mind.

[topdiva1]

That is likely the hand that ruined Motown, if this is the least bit true.

[theboyfromxtown]

Topdiva1-It certainly didn't go down well with a lot of folks over in the UK either. If you cast your mind back, at tha time, the hits were not as plentiful as they had to be and it almost explained why that might be so.

Robbert is right, it was one of those hippy newspapers but it was very popular with the "anti-establishment" crowd.

Soulster's remark about Sugarhill found its way over here at about the same time. That was sad. But there were more rumours and some of them were connected to the smaller Detroit labels that SDF focuses on. There is now "Money Laundering" rules that are supposed to be so tight that they stop that kind of thing.......*eyes roll to ceiling*

[randy_russi]

It was also rumored the "mob" wanted Mary Wells and in snooping around Motown to get her they decided to take the
whole company. The argument is that Motown exploded in '64 right after Wells' departure--Supremes, Temps, Tops
all becoming big acts and before that had never had a hit. Wells career was destroyed, basically, to get loyalty
from the others and to show without Motown no one can make it. Again none of this has ever been more than
talk & rumor. And then there were a lot of other rumors as well involving the mob controlling Motown.

[topdiva1]

There was a famous quote going around back in the day that the MAFIA told Gordy '...we want half of Motown or you will have all of nothing". Sounds interesting but was it true?

[randy_russi]

I don't know, it was also rumored they ran him out of Detroit. I doubt that, however, but who knows. Mike Roshkind
was rumored to be a mobster.

[soulster]

That is likely the hand that ruined Motown, if this is the least bit true.

No one ruined Motown. The musical landscape changed, tastes changed, and the powers that be at Motown didn't navigate it too well.

[soulster]

There was a famous quote going around back in the day that the MAFIA told Gordy '...we want half of Motown or you will have all of nothing". Sounds interesting but was it true?

I'm sure there was a time when the mob approached Motown, but i'm sure they were sly enough not to mess with an indie company as big as Motown. Now, organized crime did get to companies like Stax, but to what extent, no one knows for sure. Lots of individuals in the record business were shaken down and even beaten. To this day, there are those who were affected that will not speak about it. Some of the players are still alive.

[Kamasu_Jr]

I never read that magazine, but have heard the Mafia at Motown allegations. I have some older musician friends who swear they were at the company the day the mob moved in. One pal says the mob arrived with Barbara McNair, who was later allegedly found to have been "mobbed up or married to the mob." The mob was everywhere. THE MAFIA even controlled an Italian neighborhood grocery store in the town I was born in. If the mob could run numbers and control gambling in this small store, and the entire community around this business...it could easily get into the record business.

[MissLish]

Was Paul Williams murdered?

[randy_russi]

It is so very likely that the mob was involved in the entertainment world because the proceeds can be so great--
stories of the mob controlling record distributors, jukeboxes, entertainers [[like Frank Sinatra), etc.

[Kamasu_Jr]

Was Paul Williams murdered?

Some people believe so, but why?

[MissLish]

Are they alleging that Paul's murder was mafia related?

[Kamasu_Jr]

What could Paul Williams have known that the Mafia wanted to keep silent?

[MissLish]

Baby, I have no idea. I do know that the only motivation the Mob has to commit murder is not always to keep someone silent; sometimes it is to send a message. I've heard the same rumors as everyone else. When I heard the rumor that Paul Williams was murdered, and then nothing further, I always thought was this supposed to be a Mob connected deal? I thought someone here might have additional information.

For the record, I don't think the Mob controlled Motown, nor do I think Paul Williams was murdered. But, I am open to the consideration if someone shares something more than speculation.

[midnightman]

I doubt the Mafia story. It's not real plausible. I agree with soulster on what happened to the label.

[captainjames]

Let's see................I think it may be safe to say that during the 60's/70's that Tamla/Motown was not run by the Black Mafia and I stress Black Mafia. I think it may be also safe to say that there were folks tied to Motown that were in the Black Mafia.

[Kamasu_Jr]

Let's see................I think it may be safe to say that during the 60's/70's that Tamla/Motown was not run by the Black Mafia and I stress Black Mafia. I think it may be also safe to say that there were folks tied to Motown that were in the Black Mafia.

I agree. There was a time when the Mafia controlled nightclubs [[THE COPA) and other businesses. Entertainers had to deal with the mob. They couldn't avoid the mob.

[ralpht]

Allright, gang. There was no Mafia. One of the great Urban Legends. From what I saw during my seven years under contract, was a company fear of two brothers, the Novicks, who would come in from out of town periodically. I was never quite sure what there role was at Motown, but whatever it was, it was heavy duty. It seemed department heads would worriedly get their s**t together in anticipation of the coming of the brothers. I think it had much to do with the financial health of the company though, and no one was going to end up sleeping with fishes.

[Kamasu_Jr]

Allright, gang. There was no Mafia. One of the great Urban Legends. From what I saw during my seven years under contract, was a company fear of two brothers, the Novicks, who would come in from out of town periodically. I was never quite sure what there role was at Motown, but whatever it was, it was heavy duty. It seemed department heads would worriedly get their s**t together in anticipation of the coming of the brothers. I think it had much to do with the financial health of the company though, and no one was going to end up sleeping with fishes.

Ralph, Berry Gordy addressed the Mafia rumour in his biography. He denied it. But you can't deny that some at the company--like Barbara McNair didn't have mafia connections. She DEFINITELY did.
I'm not saying the MAFIA controlled Motown. But it probably sniffed around Hitsville to see what it could see or exploit. Why did Gordy go from being easily accessible to an alleged bullet-proof limo and bodyguards?

[randy_russi]

Weren't the Novicks accountants?? Didn't they do the books?

[MissLish]

Allright, gang. There was no Mafia. One of the great Urban Legends. From what I saw during my seven years under contract, was a company fear of two brothers, the Novicks, who would come in from out of town periodically. I was never quite sure what there role was at Motown, but whatever it was, it was heavy duty. It seemed department heads would worriedly get their s**t together in anticipation of the coming of the brothers. I think it had much to do with the financial health of the company though, and no one was going to end up sleeping with fishes.




LOLOLOLOL! Thanks for the clarification, Ralph; however, although you were there, I highly doubt the speculators will cease and desist with the speculating.

[MissLish]

I agree. There was a time when the Mafia controlled nightclubs [[THE COPA) and other businesses. Entertainers had to deal with the mob. They couldn't avoid the mob.




"There was a time.." Baby, they STILL do!

[theboyfromxtown]

Attorney, Harold Noveck and accountant Sidney Noveck......

[Kamasu_Jr]

Now who thinks the Mafia can't own or control an accountant and an attorney?

[theboyfromxtown]

not me....accountants are a special breed!!

[Kamasu_Jr]

not me....accountants are a special breed!!

LOL Better watch out, John, The Mafia is in London. They love guys who crunch numbers and keep the books.

[copley]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Times

Page 2

http://www.internationaltimes.it/index.php?year=1970&volume=IT-Volume-1&issue=86&item=IT_1970-08-27_B-IT-Volume-1_Iss-86_002

[theboyfromxtown]

Eeeek.....methinks you're right, they CAN control accountants

lol

[olamaebarto]

Allright, gang. There was no Mafia. One of the great Urban Legends. From what I saw during my seven years under contract, was a company fear of two brothers, the Novicks, who would come in from out of town periodically. I was never quite sure what there role was at Motown, but whatever it was, it was heavy duty. It seemed department heads would worriedly get their s**t together in anticipation of the coming of the brothers. I think it had much to do with the financial health of the company though, and no one was going to end up sleeping with fishes.

Interesting.

But maybe you were TOLD to say this?

[Kamasu_Jr]

Interesting.

But maybe you were TOLD to say this?

But he doesn't work for Motown any longer, so he wouldn't have to keep the company honor now.

I've noticed some people deny the existence of the Mafia or pretend it isn't there.
For example, a generally sweet Italian woman named, Kaye Moderelli, told my dad not to believe any of the stories about the mob running gambling out of her store. Mind you, she did this as the guys were collecting betting slips in the store's back room where my dad could see them. LOL

[midnightman]

If Ralph hasn't been with Motown for like 20 or 30 years, why would he lie? LOL

[soulster]

Allright, gang. There was no Mafia. One of the great Urban Legends.

Thank you!

[Kamasu_Jr]

Er, you mean no Mafia at Motown. BUT it does exist.

[marv2]

No it does not! Not like you think.

[Kamasu_Jr]

There was a whole national media expose on the mob and the Ohio town where I was born.
The GOVERNMENT MANAGED TO BREAK SOME OF THE MOB'S CONTROL. But it does still exist. It has been passed down through generations of families AND I know the Mafia has become very sophisticated in how it does some of its business these days. But some things do not change. A Mafia loyalist was elected sheriff and eventually sent to Congress right from the town I was born in. There are tapes of this former sheriff offering to sell his influence and protection to mob families. You can't tell me what I know about the Mafia.

[midnightman]

You're giving the mob too much credit if you think it has any power like that nowadays lol

[Kamasu_Jr]

You're giving the mob too much credit if you think it has any power like that nowadays lol

Explain what you mean?
Let me tell you about mob power. An Italian, mafia loyalist was elected to sheriff and sent on to Congress WHERE he was eventually indicted for corruption, taking bribes and racketeering. That's a fact. This Goodfellow served time in the federal pen, got out, returned to the northeastern Ohio town that elected him the first time. And last year, he tried to run for his old congressional seat that he'd been kicked out of. It was discovered the mob controlled the political and economic destiny of this Ohio town for years. For decades, the mob often controlled where and which folks got jobs and where they didn't.
I know some Mafia children turned their backs on their families' business and attended college and opened legitimate businesses. But they were still connected and if there was enough money being made, the mob could still move in and control things.
I Know of what I say.

[roger]

Hmm ..

I thought that some record companies had "mob" connections back in the day .. Calla comes to mind but I could be wrong!

Have to go now .. its getting late here in London and I need to make sure the doors are securely locked ..

Roger

[theboyfromxtown]

......and dont forget to put up the "beware of the dog" sign

[jobeterob]

I think some people may have used the word "Mafia" in connection with Motown in a very loose sense; in the sense of the Noveck Brothers may as well have been the Mafia because they acted like the Mafia; and if Motown or certain divisions were paying out $100,000 and bringing in $50,000, when the Noveck's came to town, the shit hit the fan and heads started to roll. And to many people, that is control in the way the Mafia is said to enforce matters.

At a bank, the "audit team" will often by referred to as the Mafia or as a bunch of pricks. It's making me wonder what the staff calls me at my office that I don't hear!

[Penny]

The mob may not have that much power but they had enough to take care of the Kennedy's.

The drug cartels now scare me to death. I can barely sleep if I think about them too much.

[smark21]

How is it that it's the black owned and operated successful record companies like Motown and Stax that are reputed to be the most mobbed up? You don't hear the same level of rumour and hearsay for major white companies like Columbia and RCA. It seems there's a racist double standard at play, as if a Black owned and operated company needed the help of mobsters to succeed.

[Kamasu_Jr]

How is it that it's the black owned and operated successful record companies like Motown and Stax that are reputed to be the most mobbed up? You don't hear the same level of rumour and hearsay for major white companies like Columbia and RCA. It seems there's a racist double standard at play, as if a Black owned and operated company needed the help of mobsters to succeed.

Interesting. That is practically what Berry Gordy wrote in his biography. But the Mafia typically picks what it believes is the easiest target to exploit. It's not that these black owned companies needed the mob to succeed. IT IS POSSIBLE, MOTOWN AND STAX COULD HAVE COME UNDER MOB CONTROL BY OTHER MEANS. I admit it is the first time I've heard of the mob allegation at Stax, because Memphis did not and does not have a large Italian [[not meaning to stereotype) population.

[marv2]

The Mafia, "the mob?", the goodfellas, nor Tony Soprano had anything to do with running Motown. That was just some bull someone made up to explain the wildly successful Motown Corporation.

[topdiva1]

Was Paul Williams murdered?


I believe that could be true.

[topdiva1]

How is it that it's the black owned and operated successful record companies like Motown and Stax that are reputed to be the most mobbed up? You don't hear the same level of rumour and hearsay for major white companies like Columbia and RCA. It seems there's a racist double standard at play, as if a Black owned and operated company needed the help of mobsters to succeed.


Child all those companies are mobbed up.

[marv2]

I believe that could be true.

Whether he was murdered or died by his own hands, what does that have to do with this topic? Lots of people in Detroit have been murdered unfortunately over the years.

[MissLish]

I believe that could be true.




And, why do you believe this?

[soulster]

I believe that could be true.

Police forensics could clear that up. Belief and facts are two different things.

[topdiva1]

Cindy Birdsong is reported to have once told a friend that Delcina Wilson and Tony Turner - were often referred to as "part of THE MOB", by some at Motown. Cindy reported it was said jokingly, but for young kids they always seemed well financed. And in Turner's ALL THAT GLITTERED you can pick up on hints of a lavish lifestyle - lived by two kids/young adults, with no apparent source of income - other than some boyfriend, that is very vaguely written about, with private jets, fancy cars, and always throwing pockets of money at the two of them.

In Akk That Glittered thier , to me, are hidden jewels of information - almost written in code - that the masses have not picked up on, because they are looking at the frivolous 0 not the death of Paul Williams, the sudden move of Motown to LA - the story of Berry and two broken legs - or the Novack brothers.

Traces of this same information can be found in Mary Wilsons books as well - all of these books I am sure have been edited like crazy for legal reasons.

Gordy had to address it - as a urban legend - but why - if it was only that.

No Mafia at Motown - ok - maybe NOT!!!

[soulster]

topdiva: speculation, hearsay, and rumor. That's all.

[topdiva1]

topdiva: speculation, hearsay, and rumor. That's all.

Yes - I do agree with you - No One - not even the top participants may ever really understand what Motown Records was. So much of it is shrouded in pure legend, fiction, speculation, gossip and rumor.

The main fact is that MOTOWN was a great influence on the world of music - and that fact continues on today - regardless of who had a hand in or out of it. The music produced at Motown has stood the test of time.

Regardless

[arrr&bee]

Ok.listens ups yoos cause i'm only gonna say dis once ya see,dare ain't's no mafia in dat dare motown ya hear n iffen i got's ta cum back ova here agin ta tell yas i'm gonna break sum heads cappice...signed...johnny meatballs.

[jobeterob]

I tink ya gots dat wrong.........Diana was da mafia wit Berry; wat she said went!

[topdiva1]

I tink ya gots dat wrong.........Diana was da mafia wit Berry; wat she said went!

Yep what she said went - and you see what way Flo went.

[marv2]

I don't know, it was also rumored they ran him out of Detroit. I doubt that, however, but who knows. Mike Roshkind
was rumored to be a mobster.

Mike Roshkind? OMG! LOL!!!!

[marv2]

Ok.listens ups yoos cause i'm only gonna say dis once ya see,dare ain't's no mafia in dat dare motown ya hear n iffen i got's ta cum back ova here agin ta tell yas i'm gonna break sum heads cappice...signed...johnny meatballs.

Good job JAI, but not fer nuthin', here on Long Guyland it is "capece"! LOL!!!!

[topdiva1]

Mike Roshkind? OMG! LOL!!!!


Mike Roshkind, they say was Berry's watchdog, and bearer of bad news - he was used to cut Flo Ballard's throat - as well as that of Ruffin and Kendricks - said to be a lap dog for Motown at the time. You think maybe he thought of himself as a little Mafia.

Intrigue, honey!

[marv2]

Mike Roshkind, they say was Berry's watchdog, and bearer of bad news - he was used to cut Flo Ballard's throat - as well as that of Ruffin and Kendricks - said to be a lap dog for Motown at the time. You think maybe he thought of himself as a little Mafia.

Intrigue, honey!

He is also the one that told Mary that she should have been "harder" on some people in her first book! LOL!

[topdiva1]

Whether he was murdered or died by his own hands, what does that have to do with this topic? Lots of people in Detroit have been murdered unfortunately over the years.


I think they are going for a Mafia who dun it!!

[marv2]

I think they are going for a Mafia who dun it!!

Well then they need to quit!

[arrr&bee]

good job jai, but not fer nuthin', here on long guyland it is "capece"! Lol!!!!hay,you ova dar wit da mouth ya don't's curreck me what you a wise guy or sumpin...i'm a gonna send ya a pair of cement underpants if n ya keeps dis up...cappice???

[marv2]

hay,you ova dar wit da mouth ya don't's curreck me what you a wise guy or sumpin...i'm a gonna send ya a pair of cement underpants if n ya keeps dis up...cappice???

Oh? So now youse think yer betta dan me? Git the F&*K outta hea! LOL!!!!

[arrr&bee]

oh? So now youse think yer betta than me?hey you's ova dar wit da mouth,i ain't's better n nobody n ima gonna send ya sum cement socks ta go wit dem underwares ya see..whoos better thin you nobody n iff en anybody says da is i'ma gonna send em a pair of these here cement tennis shues cappice,now if you's xcuse me i gots ta go ova dar n bust sum heads cause it's what i does cappice...johnny meatballs,esq.

[captainjames]

I agree. There was a time when the Mafia controlled nightclubs [[THE COPA) and other businesses. Entertainers had to deal with the mob. They couldn't avoid the mob.

Kamasu;
I understand what your saying but I don't believe they actually "ran" Motown but they were around and part of Motown. They still exist today but are more instrumental in politics and government today. There were also some gangsters that were in and out of Ohio at the time that were associated with the Mafia but that has toned down a bit. It has now become more of a elite group today than mobsters.

Also, are you referring to James Traficant [[D-Ohio) who was indicted on federal charges of racketeering, conspiracy to commit bribery, and taking illegal gratuities ?

[jobeterob]

Is Mike Roshkind still alive? Refresh us on what happened to him. Did he move on to Universal or something for a while?

[marv2]

Is Mike Roshkind still alive? Refresh us on what happened to him. Did he move on to Universal or something for a while?

Ah, yeah. He's sitting in my living room on the sofa having a drink. He wants to know, why you wanna know? I've asked, but he won't leave. I'm starting to get a little pissed........hehehehehe....

[marv2]

hey you's ova dar wit da mouth,i ain't's better n nobody n ima gonna send ya sum cement socks ta go wit dem underwares ya see..whoos better thin you nobody n iff en anybody says da is i'ma gonna send em a pair of these here cement tennis shues cappice,now if you's xcuse me i gots ta go ova dar n bust sum heads cause it's what i does cappice...johnny meatballs,esq.

Yo' Johnny Meats! Me and Joey Buttafucco got a little thing going on with his hot gumare and her friends over in Massapequa later, you in?

[nomis]

The mafia rumours first made it into print in Rock magazine...they allege that Berry couldnt pay his gambling debts while on tour with the supremes and he was severly beaten..that article in the late 60s got the ball rolling..next came Number One With A Bullet that further cememented the bond in the publics eye..we have now discovered the author saw nothing more at the time than the Four Tops being handed suitcase full of money after one of their gigs..the Mafia rumours persisited through the 70s..Taraborelli looked into them for Call Her Miss Ross as he had interviewed Taylor Cox who told him the stories where true..he had also interviewed the late Flo who recalled Berry being forced into a meeting after a Supremes gig in Peurto Rico...Taylor told Taraborelli that the Mob let Berry win big in the casinos then took half of Motown when he lost..
Diana,Marvin.Berry and Smokey have all denied the rumours..but they especially took hold in The UK when I lived there and told my mother I had discovered Diana Ross she said "Shes a gangsters Moll...." and my father agreed so even in the 80s that mob thing had stuck....
Berry suddenly being harder to get to than fort knox..all those bodyguards..there is one urban legend that Dianas favourite bodyguard was shot dead at Gordy Manor...rumours swirled around Motown....

[jobeterob]

Who is this Delcina Wilson who is jokingly referred to from time to time?

[topdiva1]

Who is this Delcina Wilson who is jokingly referred to from time to time?

Delcina Wilson is talked about in Tony Turner's ALL THAT GLITTERED - as being mysterious, and around Motown and a personal friend or possible relation to Mary Wilson. Her sudden, unexplained appearance on the Motown scene surprises Turner - as he states he never heard of her before yet suddenly every knows her at Motown and fears her, or so it appears.

In All That Glittered Turner and Delcina Wilson become fast friends, she quickly amps up Turner's style, and clout at Motown - and Turner refers to Delcina's Italy born boyfriend as being in the Costa Nostra/Mafia.

[nomis]

Delcina Wilson is a larger than life character who appears late on the scene in Tony Turners All that Glittered..she is a part time photographer known to The Supremes entourage but only meets Turner at the very end of Dianas tenure in the group..they quickly form a fast friendship over gossip on the girls and extravagant shopping sprees payed for by Delcinas mob boyfriend who appears only to give them more spending money then vanish..Delcina causes a scene when she is not booked into the Flamingo for the last shows with a fistful of dollars and a sailors mouth she gets her way..shes photographed with Diana in All That Glitterred she apparently tried to coax Flo to go to The Flamingo for the last show but Tommy ran off with the money,,Thats Tonys take on it anyway....

[topdiva1]

Delcina Wilson is a larger than life character who appears late on the scene in Tony Turners All that Glittered..she is a part time photographer known to The Supremes entourage but only meets Turner at the very end of Dianas tenure in the group..they quickly form a fast friendship over gossip on the girls and extravagant shopping sprees payed for by Delcinas mob boyfriend who appears only to give them more spending money then vanish..Delcina causes a scene when she is not booked into the Flamingo for the last shows with a fistful of dollars and a sailors mouth she gets her way..shes photographed with Diana in All That Glitterred she apparently tried to coax Flo to go to The Flamingo for the last show but Tommy ran off with the money,,Thats Tonys take on it anyway....


and that's all she wrote - well said - way better than me THANKS!!!!!

By the way I understand the two of them are still friends and still shop the way they used too!!!

[captainjames]

Delcina Wilson ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFaOsq4-EZ4

[topdiva1]

The whole Mob/Motown thing has always lead to GOOD GOSSIP and speculation - and continues to fuel the fire. The truth may be that there was never a Motown/Mob connection, at all. Just Gordy's machine keeping it interesting.

[arrr&bee]

the whole mob/motown thing has always lead to good gossip and speculation - and continues to fuel the fire. The truth may be that there was never a motown/mob connection, at all. Just gordy's machine keeping it interesting.hay yoos ova dar topdiva dat's all i'm sayin all along dar ain't no mafioso in dat dar motown ya see ima glad ta see sumbody ova dar is lisinin ya see cause udderwise me n sum o da boys was gonna hav ta cum ova dar n like bust sum heads n bein a peecful guy ima glad it got wurked out ya see capice.

[jobeterob]

It has been many years since I read All That Glittered; and I have totally lost any memory of Delcina Wilson; probably fortunate that I have!

[MissLish]

I have an extra copy I need to get rid of jobeterob..

[jobeterob]

I keep all my old Motown books; I've scanned Call Her Miss Ross recently and I was shocked at how much Randy put the boots to Mary Wilson; he may have been hard on Diana but he was harder on Mary.

[MissLish]

Perhaps if I include a cash offer with the books, they'll move?

[topdiva1]

I keep all my old Motown books; I've scanned Call Her Miss Ross recently and I was shocked at how much Randy put the boots to Mary Wilson; he may have been hard on Diana but he was harder on Mary.


I believe that one day - all these Motown books will be studied and someone will come up with a clearer combined story, a non personal look , of what may or may not have happened. Thus far for that version I refer to the old book by Nelson George - WHERE DID OUR LOVE GO.