Mary Wilson solo debut

[blackguy69]

https://youtu.be/CF9eQzhwzNM

I just saw this haven't listened to it yet about to right now

[RanRan79]

Thanks for posting BG! I heard some of this MANY years ago when Youtube first became a thing. The audio wasn't very good and admittedly I was only interested in the Mary and Diana part. Now I finally get to hear it in it's entirety and I think it's pretty good quality.

Criticisms first...Bad move keeping the Supremes such a big part of her solo act. She needed to do what Diana did: an obligatory Supremes medley but everything else is to showcase the emerging soloist. Mary cannot sing most of those Diana and Jean led songs the way they were originally constructed. Mary is a great vocalist but I wouldn't categorize her lead singing voice as melodic. Diana and Jean's voices were very melodic and those songs were tailored to fit that. If I were helping Mary plan this out and she was hellbent on doing those Supremes songs, I would have encouraged her to rearrange some of those hits, like the way "My World Is Empty" is rearranged. Most of the act should have been showcasing songs from her debut album, not traveling down memory lane.

I also understand now why Gordy was so insistent that the stage patter be planned down to the letter when the Supremes were rehearsing for the first Copa appearance. Flo could go off script and it was gold. Mary doing all this ad lib talking during and between songs sounds clumsy. That aint her thing.

Now to the good part...This show solidifies to me that with the right person guiding her, Mary Wilson could have been a successful recording artist after the Supremes. She just needed someone to believe in her and her talent and help her make good decisions. She sounds absolutely fantastic on "Everybody Gets to Go to the Moon" and I'm surprised at how well "Midnight Dancer" comes across live. I really like the live version, so much so that I'm going to revisit the recorded version and see if I can hear it with new ears. She never disappoints with "The Way We Were". I'm not a big fan of the song on it's own, but I like/love a few renditions that I've heard [[and Striesand's isn't one of them). Mary's version of the song is actually my favorite.

Also, the Supremes background medley was genius. She should have left the Supremes thing at that.

All in all, Mary gave it a good shot. And since this was the first performance I have to imagine that over the years her set just got better. It's such a shame that Motown refused to get behind her after all of the years she spent making them money. Mary could've done some great stuff.

[luke]

Good to see. We recently discussed this and someone posted the set list. Pic of her and Diana is nice.

[lakeside]

Who was doing the back up's? Who was the announcer....who sounded rather 'compromised'?

[marv2]

Who was doing the back up's? Who was the announcer....who sounded rather 'compromised'?

Karen Jackson and Gloria Jones were on backup. I don't remember the announcer.

[lakeside]

Karen Jackson and Gloria Jones were on backup. I don't remember the announcer.

Thanks, Marv. Is that THE Gloria Jones who has
recorded several solo albums?

[Thornton]

Thanks for sharing! I haven't listened to this show in years, and forgot that Mary sang "You're My Driving Wheel" with the "Sweet Dream Machine" intro. The performance is actually stronger than I remember, and think that perhaps Mary was just a little nervous. It does sound like a good audience though.

[detmotownguy]

Thanks for sharing! I haven't listened to this show in years, and forgot that Mary sang "You're My Driving Wheel" with the "Sweet Dream Machine" intro. The performance is actually stronger than I remember, and think that perhaps Mary was just a little nervous. It does sound like a good audience though. yeah it does sounds better than when I first heard the recording. So cool Diana was there. Fantastic, made my day.

[Circa 1824]

I said it before and I will say it again ... We all can talk, and few of us have wonderfully beautiful speaking voices. But, most do not.

Very few people can hit musical notes and sound beautiful, but most hit notes and sound blah. Please meet Mary Blah.

[PeaceNHarmony]

'Everybody ...' again? And 'Corner ... ' ? Oh no she didn't. Owww! Wo-whee! Well, she does try.

[marv2]

'Everybody ...' again? And 'Corner ... ' ? Oh no she didn't. Owww! Wo-whee! Well, she does try.

At least no one had to tear $20 bills in half to encourage strangers on the street to attend her debut show............

[luke]

And people complain about Diana bashing! Lolol[[and of course none of them complain when Mary gets it! Sooo transparent )

[marv2]

And people complain about Diana bashing! Lolol[[and of course none of them complain when Mary gets it! Sooo transparent )

The same people never say a word when one of their buddies bash Mary Wilson.

[antceleb12]

Thanks for posting BG! I heard some of this MANY years ago when Youtube first became a thing. The audio wasn't very good and admittedly I was only interested in the Mary and Diana part. Now I finally get to hear it in it's entirety and I think it's pretty good quality.

Criticisms first...Bad move keeping the Supremes such a big part of her solo act. She needed to do what Diana did: an obligatory Supremes medley but everything else is to showcase the emerging soloist. Mary cannot sing most of those Diana and Jean led songs the way they were originally constructed. Mary is a great vocalist but I wouldn't categorize her lead singing voice as melodic. Diana and Jean's voices were very melodic and those songs were tailored to fit that. If I were helping Mary plan this out and she was hellbent on doing those Supremes songs, I would have encouraged her to rearrange some of those hits, like the way "My World Is Empty" is rearranged. Most of the act should have been showcasing songs from her debut album, not traveling down memory lane.

I also understand now why Gordy was so insistent that the stage patter be planned down to the letter when the Supremes were rehearsing for the first Copa appearance. Flo could go off script and it was gold. Mary doing all this ad lib talking during and between songs sounds clumsy. That aint her thing.

Now to the good part...This show solidifies to me that with the right person guiding her, Mary Wilson could have been a successful recording artist after the Supremes. She just needed someone to believe in her and her talent and help her make good decisions. She sounds absolutely fantastic on "Everybody Gets to Go to the Moon" and I'm surprised at how well "Midnight Dancer" comes across live. I really like the live version, so much so that I'm going to revisit the recorded version and see if I can hear it with new ears. She never disappoints with "The Way We Were". I'm not a big fan of the song on it's own, but I like/love a few renditions that I've heard [[and Striesand's isn't one of them). Mary's version of the song is actually my favorite.

Also, the Supremes background medley was genius. She should have left the Supremes thing at that.

All in all, Mary gave it a good shot. And since this was the first performance I have to imagine that over the years her set just got better. It's such a shame that Motown refused to get behind her after all of the years she spent making them money. Mary could've done some great stuff.

Solid review. That's about what I feel. I always felt in unfair that Berry told her she couldn't sing because there were always nuggets there that made her SHIMMER, and she could have gone so much farther had she had the right encouragement - or had she not smoked so damn much...

I also agree about the 'Supremes backups' medley. Absolutely genius and comic gold. I also agree she really should have strayed from so much Supremes material, but considering her confidence as a solo artist was next to nill and the past two decades had been nothing but Supremes, I can see where the temptation would be to stay in the comfort zone.

[rod_rick]

Solid review. That's about what I feel. I always felt in unfair that Berry told her she couldn't sing because there were always nuggets there that made her SHIMMER, and she could have gone so much farther had she had the right encouragement - or had she not smoked so damn much...

I also agree about the 'Supremes backups' medley. Absolutely genius and comic gold. I also agree she really should have strayed from so much Supremes material, but considering her confidence as a solo artist was next to nill and the past two decades had been nothing but Supremes, I can see where the temptation would be to stay in the comfort zone.

I also think money had a lot to do with Mary's show. All the supremes stuff she did, she already had the charts, so that was money she didn't have to spend getting new musical charts created for new songs.
My dream would be to have Diana & Mary sing "My World Is Empty Without you as a duet. They both currently sing it very well in their live act.

[marv2]

Thanks, Marv. Is that THE Gloria Jones who has
recorded several solo albums?

Yes it is the same lady.

[Ozmo]

[QUOTE=luke;398761]And people complain about Diana bashing! Lolol[[and of course none of them complain when Mary gets it! Sooo transparent )[/QUOTE

Yes, I have noticed the same double standards applied. Yet in a weird way it is a compliment to Mary as she commands such attention with even her detractors that rather than ignore them, they seem compelled to read every posting relating to her and respond. The Diana/Mary fans are a passionate bunch!!

[thanxal]

https://youtu.be/CF9eQzhwzNM

I just saw this haven't listened to it yet about to right now

Thanks for finding and posting this. These type of things get harder and harder to find as the years pass.

[luke]

Her name is Gloria Scott.

[marv2]

Her name is Gloria Scott.

That's right Luke. Thanks.

[luke]

No problem Marv. I think she and Karen did a great job!

[marv2]

Thanks, Marv. Is that THE Gloria Jones who has
recorded several solo albums?

Lakeside, I'm sorry I was having an almost senior moment LOL! Mary's background singer was Gloria Scott, along long time back up Karen Jackson


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPPwdICWZR8

[RanRan79]

And people complain about Diana bashing! Lolol[[and of course none of them complain when Mary gets it! Sooo transparent )

I've noticed that too, in regards to people complaining about Mary bashing but not Diana bashing. I guess the transparency works both ways. I guess it all comes down to who you like and who you don't. And it's always the same folks doing the bashing and claiming they don't bash. Go figure.

[RanRan79]

Solid review. That's about what I feel. I always felt in unfair that Berry told her she couldn't sing because there were always nuggets there that made her SHIMMER, and she could have gone so much farther had she had the right encouragement - or had she not smoked so damn much...

I also agree about the 'Supremes backups' medley. Absolutely genius and comic gold. I also agree she really should have strayed from so much Supremes material, but considering her confidence as a solo artist was next to nill and the past two decades had been nothing but Supremes, I can see where the temptation would be to stay in the comfort zone.

I think Mary may have had some confidence issues even before Gordy made his comment. So if he said what he said and was actually joking, an insecure young lady like Mary may have internalized it and taken it seriously, thus knocking her confidence level even more. But lets not forget that Gordy was no dummy and I think he had a good read on his artists' weaknesses, so he may have zeroed in on Mary's confidence issues and said what he said in the hopes that it would tap into her insecurities. I think what Gordy wrote in his book probably was the truth: it was Mary who was always trying to keep up with Diana. If Gordy could control Mary with her insecurity about being a good singer, he could keep her from derailing his plans for Diana. Which of course was something he couldn't do with Florence because above all else, Flo knew she could sing and you weren't going to convince her otherwise.

You're right about the Supremes being Mary's comfort zone. That probably was the number one reason for such a Supremes heavy song lineup at her debut.

[lakeside]

Lakeside, I'm sorry I was having an almost senior moment LOL! Mary's background singer was Gloria Scott, along long time back up Karen Jackson


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPPwdICWZR8

That's right, Marv, Gloria Scott. I even have the CD
'What Am I Gonna Do' signed by her! By the way....my
'senior moments' last for hours anymore!

[marv2]

That's right, Marv, Gloria Scott. I even have the CD
'What Am I Gonna Do' signed by her! By the way....my
'senior moments' last for hours anymore!

thanks Lakeside. Gloria is one of the few of Mary's singers I have not met or seen perform live. There are clips of her performing with Mary however on Youtube.

[luke]

I'm pretty sure Berry also said Diana was trying to keep up with Mary...it went back and forth.

[luke]

Mary and Gloria sure look similar! Like New Ways back pic.

[marv2]

Mary and Gloria sure look similar! Like New Ways back pic.

Except when they're standing side by side. LOL

13290

[luke]

True. It was that particular pic..the eyes and fro!

[RanRan79]

I'm pretty sure Berry also said Diana was trying to keep up with Mary...it went back and forth.

I think you're right Luke.

[luke]

I was surprised when I read that. I'd figured he'd say It was Flo who she was trying to keep up with!

[TheMotownManiac]

OMG!!!!!!! THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!! I've heard snips & clips but never the entire show - and, even after comments by buds who were there, it's still way beyond my expectations - and I was expecting a lot. Mary is CLEARLY reaDY for solo career....... I have a few quibbles, but they are not worth even bringing up in such a tremendous review. Wow..wow....wow!!!!!!!!!
https://youtu.be/CF9eQzhwzNM

I just saw this haven't listened to it yet about to right now

[Weslley Francisco]

13291

Cover Art made by me

[marv2]

Very nice Weslley

[Bluebrock]

That's right, Marv, Gloria Scott. I even have the CD
'What Am I Gonna Do' signed by her! By the way....my
'senior moments' last for hours anymore!
I also have this cd. Gloria Scott was a fine vocalist who deserved more success than she ever had. Well worth checking out.

[marv2]

Here is a copy of the original concert poster for Mary Wilson's solo debut:

13296

[marv2]

Here Gloria Scott is performing with Mary. She is to the left of Mary:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J44MIj8_iPY

[RanRan79]

I also have this cd. Gloria Scott was a fine vocalist who deserved more success than she ever had. Well worth checking out.

Her album is one of my favorites. One of those albums I can listen to without skipping a track.

[marv2]

Her album is one of my favorites. One of those albums I can listen to without skipping a track.

Mary has always had great background singers in her act.

[Bluebrock]

Her album is one of my favorites. One of those albums I can listen to without skipping a track.
I agree, and talking about it here has made me want to did it out again. Very solid album from start to finish and well worth picking up if anyone is considering purchasing it. Decent price too.

[LoveSupreme]

Her voice does nothing for me. Nice try though, I guess. Thanks for sharing.

[BayouMotownMan]

I remember when it was announced that Motown was issuing Mary's first solo lp in the summer of 1979, I think we fans knew that this was not going to go far. Same was true for Scherrie and Susaye. Motown did so little for the group so why bother with solo lps?

Everything about this was wrong for Mary from the start of this solo break. Mary's strong suit were ballads. So why give her a disco lp? Trying to re-launch Mary as a disco artist was truly uninspired. For starters, she was nearing her 40th year, secondly, everybody that signed to the label was being promoted as disco artists. The Motown sound was long dead and the company jumped on the disco bandwagon instead of trying to launch innovative music as it did in the sixties.

When I heard the lp I liked every song but Red Hot, which was simply too frenetic. And there was only one ballad, and a good one. I think if the company was serious about Mary they'd have teamed her with Ron Miller or Michael Masser. I can hear Mary singing the songs Charlene sang [[I've Never Been To Me). Hal Davis did well with the budget given him, but the music supplied here was already on its way out. Disco was all but dead.

Motown fronted Mary no money for a new stage act. So she goes out with the old Supremes show, only adding three songs from her new lp. Opening night in NY for Mary was sold out...but that was largely due to the rumor that Ross would be there. The critics were not kind to Mary. Attendance quickly dropped off and fans were commenting on the old, dated Supremes gowns being back in the show.

Mary did the best she could with what was given her; essentially nothing. But long before Motown dropped her, I think most of us knew it was coming.

[LoveSupreme]

I remember when it was announced that Motown was issuing Mary's first solo lp in the summer of 1979, I think we fans knew that this was not going to go far. Same was true for Scherrie and Susaye. Motown did so little for the group so why bother with solo lps?

Everything about this was wrong for Mary from the start of this solo break. Mary's strong suit were ballads. So why give her a disco lp? Trying to re-launch Mary as a disco artist was truly uninspired. For starters, she was nearing her 40th year, secondly, everybody that signed to the label was being promoted as disco artists. The Motown sound was long dead and the company jumped on the disco bandwagon instead of trying to launch innovative music as it did in the sixties.

When I heard the lp I liked every song but Red Hot, which was simply too frenetic. And there was only one ballad, and a good one. I think if the company was serious about Mary they'd have teamed her with Ron Miller or Michael Masser. I can hear Mary singing the songs Charlene sang [[I've Never Been To Me). Hal Davis did well with the budget given him, but the music supplied here was already on its way out. Disco was all but dead.

Motown fronted Mary no money for a new stage act. So she goes out with the old Supremes show, only adding three songs from her new lp. Opening night in NY for Mary was sold out...but that was largely due to the rumor that Ross would be there. The critics were not kind to Mary. Attendance quickly dropped off and fans were commenting on the old, dated Supremes gowns being back in the show.

Mary did the best she could with what was given her; essentially nothing. But long before Motown dropped her, I think most of us knew it was coming.

Aside from a few charted singles, "Up The Ladder To The Roof" and "Stoned Love" being their two biggest, I feel the post-Diana Supremes were essentially a non-starter.

The group had massive turn around in the remaining 7 years they would go on to exist, what with Cindy leaving to be replaced by Lynda and then Jean leaving to be replaced by Sherri, only to have Lynda leave to be replaced by....Cindy and then Cindy exiting again only to be replaces by Susaye? Honestly, who could keep up at that point - - - then you add the fact that they continued to perform in gowns from the mid to late 60s that by the mid 70s were relics and out of fashion. It was just weird to see Mary, Susaye and Sherri on television in Bob Mackie gowns that were created for the 1969 television special, "G.I.T. On Broadway"...it got weird.

And then for Mary to continue to use those old gowns in her solo act. It must have been amusing for Diana to see Mary traipsing around in those old gowns. It must have been like watching one of those old movies where the faded star is living in the faded past wearing relics from the past.

[PeaceNHarmony]

Aside from a few charted singles, "Up The Ladder To The Roof" and "Stoned Love" being their two biggest, I feel the post-Diana Supremes were essentially a non-starter.

The group had massive turn around in the remaining 7 years they would go on to exist, what with Cindy leaving to be replaced by Lynda and then Jean leaving to be replaced by Sherri, only to have Lynda leave to be replaced by....Cindy and then Cindy exiting again only to be replaces by Susaye? Honestly, who could keep up at that point - - - then you add the fact that they continued to perform in gowns from the mid to late 60s that by the mid 70s were relics and out of fashion. It was just weird to see Mary, Susaye and Sherri on television in Bob Mackie gowns that were created for the 1969 television special, "G.I.T. On Broadway"...it got weird.

And then for Mary to continue to use those old gowns in her solo act. It must have been amusing for Diana to see Mary traipsing around in those old gowns. It must have been like watching one of those old movies where the faded star is living in the faded past wearing relics from the past.
Tina Turner was also cash-strapped in her early years but was on good terms with Mackie and would get one new costume so she would not be dated.

[RanRan79]

I agree with you Bayou. The whole thing was just wrong. Motown did Mary dirty. They knew this project was going to be a failure from the jump. When you want an artist to succeed, you structure everything around their talents. Mary was fantastic as a ballad singer. Nothing about her voice says disco. It's a shame really. I still say with Motown's backing, the three original Supremes all should have been able to walk into successful solo careers.

[RanRan79]

It must have been amusing for Diana to see Mary traipsing around in those old gowns.

Do you think she was that petty? Because I don't. I don't think any of Mary's struggles were amusing to Diana. She had her own great thing going. Why would she relish in the struggles of her former singing partners?

[thanxal]

Do you think she was that petty? Because I don't. I don't think any of Mary's struggles were amusing to Diana. She had her own great thing going. Why would she relish in the struggles of her former singing partners?
You're correct again.

[BayouMotownMan]

No, Diana Ross wanted success for Mary but not so much for the Supremes. After all, she was competitive and how would it look that she left the group and they eclipsed her? And for two years they did, BG dealt with that in his new play

[marv2]

More than 30 years later "Red Hot" is still being remixed.......


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQSnPv3Gyko

[jobeterob]

Don't you think that the album sounds worse today than it really was at the time?

Maybe disco started to wane as the album came out but it had been the big thing.

Today all of that sounds very dated and unlistenable but it isn't just Mary's album.

It's a shame that it was her only real album that got a release.

An album like The Great Amercan Songbook stuff Rod Stewart did would be nice from her - even now.

[sansradio]

Don't you think that the album sounds worse today than it really was at the time?

Maybe disco started to wane as the album came out but it had been the big thing.

Today all of that sounds very dated and unlistenable but it isn't just Mary's album.

It's a shame that it was her only real album that got a release.

An album like The Great Amercan Songbook stuff Rod Stewart did would be nice from her - even now.

Good points, 'rob, but don't forget her WALK THE LINE album from '91.

[RanRan79]

Don't you think that the album sounds worse today than it really was at the time?

Maybe disco started to wane as the album came out but it had been the big thing.

Today all of that sounds very dated and unlistenable but it isn't just Mary's album.

It's a shame that it was her only real album that got a release.

An album like The Great Amercan Songbook stuff Rod Stewart did would be nice from her - even now.

I can't speak about the album as someone who lived disco's birth and death. What I will say is that I love soulful disco. There's a nice amount of disco in rotation when I have my music on shuffle. To me good music is good music no matter the genre or time period. And to my ears Mary Wilson's Motown album stinks beyond belief. I can listen to the stuff Donna Summer and Gloria Gaynor and Diana Ross were doing at the same time as Mary and feel that their stuff was great. Mary's is horrible. Maybe not horrible, but bad. Definitely bad.

[marv2]

Good points, 'rob, but don't forget her WALK THE LINE album from '91.

"Up Close" her live Jazz CD from 2007 was superb!

[marv2]

I really liked Mary's debut album. Here's one of my favorite cuts:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NdJhVVAKCE

[luke]

I actually like Mary's album better now. I did not like it much in 1979 but after hearing it more and seeing video clips I like it much better now.

[marv2]

I actually like Mary's album better now. I did not like it much in 1979 but after hearing it more and seeing video clips I like it much better now.

I remember waiting a long time for it to come out. I remember going to my neighborhood store back then. I spotted an album I thought was Mary's new one and it turned out to be Brenda Russell's "So Good So Right" album. Then finally about a month and half later Mary's album hit the shelves. I was very happy to have it. I loved "Red Hot" right way and the other songs grew on me over that first month of owing the album.

[jobeterob]

Good points, 'rob, but don't forget her WALK THE LINE album from '91.

Was it actually released by a real record company or was it some marginal shoestring company?

I don't recall an actual Billboard review or anything like that.

[RanRan79]

"Pick Up the Pieces" is the only gem on that album for my taste. I think it should have been the centerpiece, with the rest of the album structured around it. Disco was not Mary's lane. She should have been doing stuff like Brenda Russell was doing. Mary could've done that very well.

[marv2]

"Pick Up the Pieces" is the only gem on that album for my taste. I think it should have been the centerpiece, with the rest of the album structured around it. Disco was not Mary's lane. She should have been doing stuff like Brenda Russell was doing. Mary could've done that very well.

Ironic you should mention that being that Brenda is one Mary's best friends. Here she is covering one of Brenda's songs in concert:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQ2j-KEeOHw

[luke]

I love this. Thanks. It is perfect for Mary. I wish she would sing it now sometimes. Brenda is one of her closest friends.

[marv2]

I love this. Thanks. It is perfect for Mary. I wish she would sing it now sometimes. Brenda is one of her closest friends.

She also use to do this great job with Lisa Stansfield's - "All Around the World" in the late 80s early 90s. Mary always changes up the songs she does in concert.

[detmotownguy]

I love this. Thanks. It is perfect for Mary. I wish she would sing it now sometimes. Brenda is one of her closest friends.
Thanks for posting Marv. Mary certainly has a powerful voice. Nice to hear her let it loose.

[marv2]

Thanks for posting Marv. Mary certainly has a powerful voice. Nice to hear her let it loose.

You are most welcome DET! Detroit produced some of the greatest Pop/Soul singers and Mary Wilson is definitely one of them!

[bradsupremes]

I wonder if Hal Davis knew Mary's strengths and weaknesses when doing that debut album. I feel as though he didn't know her voice well enough to find the right material for her. It seemed like it was thrown together without much thought. It would surprise me one bit if Motown did it on purpose.

Maybe that's why Mary went outside the company [[which Motown wasn't happy about) to get Gus Dudgeon to produce those four tracks on her. Motown clearly didn't care to put her with the right producer within the label. As wrong as it might have been to go against the company, Mary actually did the right thing for herself by finding a producer to cut tracks that showcased her strength and ability. I believe those four Gus Dudgeon tracks was just what Mary needed and she definitely could have had a hit with "Save Me" and "Love Talk." Had Motown not dropped her from the label, finished the second album, and gave one of those Gus Dudgeon tracks just a little push, Mary's solo career may have taken a different course.

[kenneth]

I recently purchased a copy of this album with bonus tracks that was offered by the fellow in Europe who did the bootleg Diana Ross CDs. My feeling about the album was that it still doesn't hold up, but the Dudgeon tracks [[the bonus tracks on the CD) are much better. I suppose if not for disco being so important at the time, Mary's career might have had a different trajectory.

[Boogiedown]

I wonder if Hal Davis knew Mary's strengths and weaknesses when doing that debut album. I feel as though he didn't know her voice well enough to find the right material for her. It seemed like it was thrown together without much thought. It would surprise me one bit if Motown did it on purpose.

Sometimes it seems Motown can't win for trying . They hooked Mary up with the same producer that gave Diana her huge #1 disco hit LOVE HANGOVER , I'm guessing for no other reason than with the hopes that maybe the same magic would happen here for Mary ?

[luke]

I dont think that argument holds up as they dropped her fast.. the woman who helped Motown sell millions of records and performed beautifully helping Motown succeed. She deserved another album. Remember she had just sued them [[ and boy did she have a leg to stand on) and they got her to drop all and any FUTURE claims.

[marv2]

Sometimes it seems Motown can't win for trying . They hooked Mary up with the same producer that gave Diana her huge #1 disco hit LOVE HANGOVER , I'm guessing for no other reason than with the hopes that maybe the same magic would happen here for Mary ?

Disco was just about over by the Fall of 1979. That album should have come out in '77 or '78.

[marv2]

I dont think that argument holds up as they dropped her fast.. the woman who helped Motown sell millions of records and performed beautifully helping Motown succeed. She deserved another album. Remember she had just sued them [[ and boy did she have a leg to stand on) and they got her to drop all and any FUTURE claims.

That's all that it was about. She had them by the "eggs" and they knew it. LOL!

[RanRan79]

Ironic you should mention that being that Brenda is one Mary's best friends. Here she is covering one of Brenda's songs in concert:

No surprises here. Mary did exactly what I've always thought she would have done with the song. I'm glad Brenda gave herself a hit, but I have to wonder how different things could have been for Mary- career wise- if Brenda had given the song to her. I realize Mary didn't have a record company in 1988 [[did she?) but I still wonder "what if".

Btw, I asked this question before but no one addressed it: What's the story on Mary and Atlantic Records in the 80s? She did those demos [["Sleeping In Separate Rooms" was very good IMO and exactly the kind of music she should have been making) and then what happened? Was she ever signed to the label or were those demos a test run to see if she was worth their time and trouble?

I can't remember if she addressed this in her second book and I'm too lazy to look.:o

[RanRan79]

I wonder if Hal Davis knew Mary's strengths and weaknesses when doing that debut album. I feel as though he didn't know her voice well enough to find the right material for her. It seemed like it was thrown together without much thought. It would surprise me one bit if Motown did it on purpose.

Maybe that's why Mary went outside the company [[which Motown wasn't happy about) to get Gus Dudgeon to produce those four tracks on her. Motown clearly didn't care to put her with the right producer within the label. As wrong as it might have been to go against the company, Mary actually did the right thing for herself by finding a producer to cut tracks that showcased her strength and ability. I believe those four Gus Dudgeon tracks was just what Mary needed and she definitely could have had a hit with "Save Me" and "Love Talk." Had Motown not dropped her from the label, finished the second album, and gave one of those Gus Dudgeon tracks just a little push, Mary's solo career may have taken a different course.

Hal may have felt he had a good read on Mary's voice. I assume though, that wouldn't have stopped him from following the current trend of disco in an effort to give Mary a solo career jump start. As someone said previously, Motown was heavy into producing disco at the time. Hal may have been following the company lead. But no doubt in my mind Motown head honchos knew disco wasn't Mary's thing and the disco album would do her career no favors.

Those Dudgeon tracks were a different story. The songs sound right for the time and right for Mary. Had Motown given her a Love Talk album and pushed it, Mary's solo career could've gone in a different direction. I can't remember Mary's version of the particulars, but did Motown even listen to the Dudgeon tracks, or did they find out about them and boot her [[along with the tracks) out the door without a second thought? If they didn't listen to the tracks one might be able to speculate that they wouldn't have let her take the tracks when they dropped her. They were good enough to get her signed to another label. Was she not shopping herself around?

[Thornton]

Sometimes it seems Motown can't win for trying . They hooked Mary up with the same producer that gave Diana her huge #1 disco hit LOVE HANGOVER , I'm guessing for no other reason than with the hopes that maybe the same magic would happen here for Mary ?

Hal Davis also worked with Mary on The Supremes' 1975 album. There's that demo of "This Is Why I Believe In You" and it sounds like Davis is coaching all of them on vocals, making the song more soulful.

Anyway, I actually like Mary's album, even if it does sound a bit dated. I think the 12" single version of "Red Hot" is the best.

[marv2]

Hal Davis also worked with Mary on The Supremes' 1975 album. There's that demo of "This Is Why I Believe In You" and it sounds like Davis is coaching all of them on vocals, making the song more soulful.

Anyway, I actually like Mary's album, even if it does sound a bit dated. I think the 12" single version of "Red Hot" is the best.

Thornton I remember that demo of "This is Why I Believe In You" too, but I cannot find it now for anything. Would you happen to know where I can listen to it again? Thanks

[marv2]

Hal may have felt he had a good read on Mary's voice. I assume though, that wouldn't have stopped him from following the current trend of disco in an effort to give Mary a solo career jump start. As someone said previously, Motown was heavy into producing disco at the time. Hal may have been following the company lead. But no doubt in my mind Motown head honchos knew disco wasn't Mary's thing and the disco album would do her career no favors.

Those Dudgeon tracks were a different story. The songs sound right for the time and right for Mary. Had Motown given her a Love Talk album and pushed it, Mary's solo career could've gone in a different direction. I can't remember Mary's version of the particulars, but did Motown even listen to the Dudgeon tracks, or did they find out about them and boot her [[along with the tracks) out the door without a second thought? If they didn't listen to the tracks one might be able to speculate that they wouldn't have let her take the tracks when they dropped her. They were good enough to get her signed to another label. Was she not shopping herself around?

She was shopping around. Atlantic was going to sign her but something happened. I don't think they could reach an agreement.

Neil Bogart wanted to sign her to Boardwalk Records but unfortunately he became ill and passed away before they could do the deal.

Fantasy Records offered her a contract and she declined but referred Brenda Holloway to them and she eventually signed with them or a division of Fantasy Records.

Peter Stringfellows wanted to sign her to a new label he was creating. She recorded the song "My Love Life Is A Disaster" as the potential first single. That never panned out however for some reason.

Merv Griffin wanted to sign her to a label he was going to create and on and on and on. LOL!

[Thornton]

Thornton I remember that demo of "This is Why I Believe In You" too, but I cannot find it now for anything. Would you happen to know where I can listen to it again? Thanks

I have it on a cd...somewhere. I'm not sure if it's on YouTube. I haven't listened to it in years.

[BayouMotownMan]

Pairing Mary with Hal Davis is proof to me that Motown wasn't serious about Mary; Davis was ice cold in 1979
, had not had a major hit in over three years.

The second problem is that Motown was running out of in-house producers. Most had left and the company now had acts that write and produce themselves.

If Motown wanted Mary they could have approached Rick James or Stevie Wonder to launch her, maybe even James Carmichael. Of the three, Stevie likely would have taken the challenge

[blackguy69]

I have it on a cd...somewhere. I'm not sure if it's on YouTube. I haven't listened to it in years.

It's not on YouTube at the moment

[marv2]

I have it on a cd...somewhere. I'm not sure if it's on YouTube. I haven't listened to it in years.

I loved that; the way they were practicing and layering the vocals. Maybe you can find a way to upload it to Youtube.

[marv2]

Pairing Mary with Hal Davis is proof to me that Motown wasn't serious about Mary; Davis was ice cold in 1979
, had not had a major hit in over three years.

The second problem is that Motown was running out of in-house producers. Most had left and the company now had acts that write and produce themselves.

If Motown wanted Mary they could have approached Rick James or Stevie Wonder to launch her, maybe even James Carmichael. Of the three, Stevie likely would have taken the challenge

Rick James did express an interest in producing Mary.

[marv2]

It's not on YouTube at the moment

I wished it were. I am sure people here would get a kick out of listening to it. I still remember it and I have not heard it in years.

[BayouMotownMan]

Rick James did express an interest in producing Mary.

No he wanted to produced Diana Ross...and it almost happenend

[sup_fan]

given how so much of the production staff had left Motown by 80, i'm surprised they were so upset by Mary working with Gus. Unless Motown had incurred costs for the sessions and had already planned on dropping her.

I do think these tracks are really strong and she would have been perfectly timed to the post-disco era. Something more rock/tina turner-esque.

So many what ifs

[RanRan79]

She was shopping around. Atlantic was going to sign her but something happened. I don't think they could reach an agreement.

Neil Bogart wanted to sign her to Boardwalk Records but unfortunately he became ill and passed away before they could do the deal.

Fantasy Records offered her a contract and she declined but referred Brenda Holloway to them and she eventually signed with them or a division of Fantasy Records.

Peter Stringfellows wanted to sign her to a new label he was creating. She recorded the song "My Love Life Is A Disaster" as the potential first single. That never panned out however for some reason.

Merv Griffin wanted to sign her to a label he was going to create and on and on and on. LOL!

Thanks for the info Marv.

[RanRan79]

No he wanted to produced Diana Ross...and it almost happenend

I've never heard that it "almost" happened, but I have heard for years that he wanted to produce Diana and instead the company steered him toward the newly signed Teena Marie. I think the Ross/James pairing would have been gold, but I'm glad we got Teena too.

[RanRan79]

given how so much of the production staff had left Motown by 80, i'm surprised they were so upset by Mary working with Gus. Unless Motown had incurred costs for the sessions and had already planned on dropping her.

I do think these tracks are really strong and she would have been perfectly timed to the post-disco era. Something more rock/tina turner-esque.

So many what ifs

No surprise there if they were looking for any reason to kick her to the curb. Her taking charge of her own career was as good a reason as any. Like I said about Diana in another thread, Mary was grown as hell. She'd been a Motown artist since she was a teenager. She earned the right to make some decisions.

[LoveSupreme]

She was shopping around. Atlantic was going to sign her but something happened. I don't think they could reach an agreement.

Neil Bogart wanted to sign her to Boardwalk Records but unfortunately he became ill and passed away before they could do the deal.

Fantasy Records offered her a contract and she declined but referred Brenda Holloway to them and she eventually signed with them or a division of Fantasy Records.

Peter Stringfellows wanted to sign her to a new label he was creating. She recorded the song "My Love Life Is A Disaster" as the potential first single. That never panned out however for some reason.

Merv Griffin wanted to sign her to a label he was going to create and on and on and on. LOL!

WOW! She really didn't have much luck did she? So many would've, should've, could'ves.....

[detmotownguy]

Thornton I remember that demo of "This is Why I Believe In You" too, but I cannot find it now for anything. Would you happen to know where I can listen to it again? Thanks Marv I asked you 6 mon ago abt that studio audio. Have you been holding out? Lol! I want to hear that raw footage again. Is it stored on your Mary yahoo group? Thanks!

[LoveSupreme]

https://img.discogs.com/Et444W1J7gaxcQFKuE0gucRltyI=/fit-in/600x595/filters:strip_icc[[):format[[jpeg):mode_rgb[[):qualit y[[90)/discogs-images/R-6765933-1426174449-2591.jpeg.jpg

https://img.discogs.com/DXGvBYj4Y0LsknL1TarIj4fZ0bk=/fit-in/599x600/filters:strip_icc[[):format[[jpeg):mode_rgb[[):qualit y[[90)/discogs-images/R-6765933-1426174452-9643.jpeg.jpg

To her credit she looks great on the front cover of her 1979 solo Lp. She's always been one of the most beautiful artists on the Motown label. Too bad she was shafted on [[a) the material she was given and [[b) the lack of promotion she was afforded.

[luke]

They sure at least gave her a beautiful front cover. Wasn't she pregnant? Is the This is why I believe demo so different from the finished recording?

[longtimefan]

There has been no mention recently of the album entitled CLARITY that Mary discussed as a pending release over many years. I think it was done with the Holland brothers. I guess at this point we're never going to get it. Two singles from it were released however.

Also, Sweet Feet music released a single TIME TO MOVE ON a year or two ago with mention of recording additional tracks. Nothing yet!!!

I am a fan of Mary Wilson and have long been puzzled about pending numerous and then "no show" potential albums over 30+ years [[see other posts above).

Despite some non-fans, Mary does have an audience that would purchase her music. Many performers sell their product at venues where they appear, too.

[sup_fan]

Ralph do u have any memories of this album? I know Russ worked on it so wasn't sure if u have some history to share

[marv2]

Thanks for the info Marv.

You are most welcome.

[marv2]

There has been no mention recently of the album entitled CLARITY that Mary discussed as a pending release over many years. I think it was done with the Holland brothers. I guess at this point we're never going to get it. Two singles from it were released however.

Also, Sweet Feet music released a single TIME TO MOVE ON a year or two ago with mention of recording additional tracks. Nothing yet!!!

I am a fan of Mary Wilson and have long been puzzled about pending numerous and then "no show" potential albums over 30+ years [[see other posts above).

Despite some non-fans, Mary does have an audience that would purchase her music. Many performers sell their product at venues where they appear, too.

Mary use to sell her CD, "I Am Changing" at all of her concerts in the late 90s and through the first 10 years or so of the 2000s. There would be stacks set up in the lobbies before the show and by the time her "meet and greets" ended there would only be a handful to none left. She did hundreds of shows.......

[marv2]

Marv I asked you 6 mon ago abt that studio audio. Have you been holding out? Lol! I want to hear that raw footage again. Is it stored on your Mary yahoo group? Thanks!

uh uh! I don't have it, but let me check around DET.

[marv2]

No he wanted to produced Diana Ross...and it almost happenend

I don't know anything about that, but I do know that he wanted to produce Mary Wilson. Melvin Franklin was also encouraging it. I don't think Mary was too keen on the idea,but she would have to say herself. I remember we were all excited about the idea. Later on after the Mary Jane Girls first album came out, I use to wonder what Mary would sound like doing those songs. YES Rick James wanted to produce Mary Wilson!

[vgalindo]

I've never heard that it "almost" happened, but I have heard for years that he wanted to produce Diana and instead the company steered him toward the newly signed Teena Marie. I think the Ross/James pairing would have been gold, but I'm glad we got Teena too.

Yes it did almost happen. He wrote 3 or 4 songs for Diana. One of them being the Teena Marie hit "Im a sucker for your love" He wanted to write and produce an entire album on Diana. Berry said no. Berry would only agree with a few songs but not an entire album. He was told take it or leave it. So the songs he was working on went to Teena Marie. He actually went to Diana and Diana said she would not go against what Berry wanted

[marv2]

One of my favorite cuts from Mary's debut album, "Pick Up the Pieces". it was released as a single in the U.K. in 1980:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JuaLzbMkWX0

[RanRan79]

They sure at least gave her a beautiful front cover. Wasn't she pregnant? Is the This is why I believe demo so different from the finished recording?

She is absolutely gorgeous on the cover. I don't care for the back cover as much, but the front cover is worthy of a wall.

The demo for "This Is Why I Believe In You" is 10 minutes of rehearsing and working the thing out. It's a worthwhile listen, and a testament to the work that is put into a song by the singers themselves, trying to get the elements right. "This Is Why" is not a song I particularly like, but the demo is fun to listen to.

[RanRan79]

Yes it did almost happen. He wrote 3 or 4 songs for Diana. One of them being the Teena Marie hit "Im a sucker for your love" He wanted to write and produce an entire album on Diana. Berry said no. Berry would only agree with a few songs but not an entire album. He was told take it or leave it. So the songs he was working on went to Teena Marie. He actually went to Diana and Diana said she would not go against what Berry wanted

You're right. When I read the word "almost", my mind was conjuring up this project actually getting a greenlight and then a no go. But in terms of Rick's desire, I was previously aware that he had written songs he intended for Diana and Berry said no. I have some other ideas on this but I'll save them for another thread so as not to hijack this Mary thread with Diana stuff.

As for Mary and Rick, I don't know about how that would have turned out. I'm not sure I can hear Mary doing anything Rick produced. I much better like the idea of Marvin producing her. I think Stevie or Lionel Richie would have been able to give Mary some great stuff too.

[RanRan79]

One of my favorite cuts from Mary's debut album, "Pick Up the Pieces". it was released as a single in the U.K. in 1980:

This is the song that Motown should've pushed. I love this one. Didn't know it was a single in the UK. How did it do?

[marv2]

This is the song that Motown should've pushed. I love this one. Didn't know it was a single in the UK. How did it do?

I really don't know how it did in can I say England without offending anyone? But it also was included in the compilation CD series Motown by the Year - 1980.

[luke]

Now Marv you know it's the U.K. I've been chastised in past for saying England!!

[TomatoTom123]

I really don't know how it did in can I say England without offending anyone? But it also was included in the compilation CD series Motown by the Year - 1980.

Lol, I think you mean 'Britain', Marv... anycase I don't think it was a hit here even though it was a single... still a great song though...

[marv2]

Now Marv you know it's the U.K. I've been chastised in past for saying England!!

Ok thanks Luke. My bad.

[Roberta75]

This is the song that Motown should've pushed. I love this one. Didn't know it was a single in the UK. How did it do?

It wasnt really a released single in the UK it was a prromo single which means about 100 copies was pressed and passed out to radio stations but never took of and wasnt released to the public.

https://www.discogs.com/Mary-Wilson-Pick-Up-The-Pieces/release/4104168

[luke]

I don't know why Marv lol. People say U.S and not America! What about the Virgin Islands and Puero Rico?!

[marv2]

I don't know why Marv lol. People say U.S and not America! What about the Virgin Islands and Puero Rico?!

It's all a mystery Luke. hehehehehehehehe! Do people still use the term "Scotland" or always just United Kingdom?

[luke]

Excellent question. And aren't they considering leavingUK?? Getting complicated

[marv2]

Excellent question. And aren't they considering leavingUK?? Getting complicated

I think they already tried that and it was voted down.

[luke]

And Puerto Rico voted to become a state but haven't heard another word about it!

[marv2]

And Puerto Rico voted to become a state but haven't heard another word about it!

They're not going to let them become a State. LOL!

[luke]

Hmmmmphhhhh

[marv2]

Back to the subject. Does anyone remember Mary Wilson's television solo debut on the Mike Douglas Show? She sang "Red Hot" and Mike joined her towards the end to dance.

[TomatoTom123]

I know this is not related to the actual thread but I feel like it might need some explaining... lol... basically, the nation state you guys are taking about is called the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, known simply as the United Kingdom or the UK. This refers to the nation state that is made up of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, are individual countries [[not states in themselves) that together make up the UK. The term 'Great Britain' or 'Britain' refers to the actual island that is made up of England, Scotland and Wales, but is normally used interchangeably with 'the UK' to mean the whole state.

Hmm, I think that's it... hope it all makes sense! :D

[TomatoTom123]

Oh, yes, Scotland [[which is, like England, just a country within the UK) had a referendum on whether to leave the UK and become an independent state back in 2014. They voted [[just about) to remain a part of the UK, so did not become an independent country, although there is of course the possibility that they could in the future, through another referendum.

There ya goooo, questions hopefully answered now! :D

[luke]

Very helpful. Thanks Tomato. I'm guessing USA refers to territories as well but not sure. Will research. America may refer to Canada , USA and Mexico and South America as well and Centeal America!

[bradsupremes]

given how so much of the production staff had left Motown by 80, i'm surprised they were so upset by Mary working with Gus. Unless Motown had incurred costs for the sessions and had already planned on dropping her.

I do think these tracks are really strong and she would have been perfectly timed to the post-disco era. Something more rock/tina turner-esque.

So many what ifs

That's why it confuses me. If Motown was so upset about having outside people coming in then why was it okay for Nile Rodgers and Bernard Edwards to produce Diana around the same time. Rodgers/Edwards and Dudgeon had established producing credits. Doesn't make sense why they would be upset especially if the recordings were exceptional like Mary's tracks with Dudgeon were.

Motown wasn't happy when Jimmy Webb was brought in to do the Supremes album back in 1972. You'd think they would be fine with it due to Webb's phenomenal writing and producing and the fact he was a former Motown songwriter. And yet Motown was okay with the idea of bringing in Bacharach & David to work with DRATS in the late 60's.

[luke]

Sadly I think they just wanted to show the door to Mary Wilson.

[marv2]

That's why it confuses me. If Motown was so upset about having outside people coming in then why was it okay for Nile Rodgers and Bernard Edwards to produce Diana around the same time. Rodgers/Edwards and Dudgeon had established producing credits. Doesn't make sense why they would be upset especially if the recordings were exceptional like Mary's tracks with Dudgeon were.

Motown wasn't happy when Jimmy Webb was brought in to do the Supremes album back in 1972. You'd think they would be fine with it due to Webb's phenomenal writing and producing and the fact he was a former Motown songwriter. And yet Motown was okay with the idea of bringing in Bacharach & David to work with DRATS in the late 60's.

They were being hypocrites! They wanted control over who got hits and who didn't. Strange, I know but for certain artists at Motown to be so bold as to go and select their own producers without permission was a no, no. Keep in mind that the artists still have to pay for studio time out of their own royalties, etc!

[marv2]

Sadly I think they just wanted to show the door to Mary Wilson.

Then they were talking to her about coming back as early as 1982 when they wanted to put the Supremes back together with Mary.

[marv2]

Oh, yes, Scotland [[which is, like England, just a country within the UK) had a referendum on whether to leave the UK and become an independent state back in 2014. They voted [[just about) to remain a part of the UK, so did not become an independent country, although there is of course the possibility that they could in the future, through another referendum.

There ya goooo, questions hopefully answered now! :D

Yes that helps. Thanks.

[TomatoTom123]

Very helpful. Thanks Tomato. I'm guessing USA refers to territories as well but not sure. Will research. America may refer to Canada , USA and Mexico and South America as well and Centeal America!

Hey, Luke, you're welcome. Yep, I think USA is a bit like the UK in that it is the official 'nation state', made up of all the individual states. :)

[TomatoTom123]

Yes that helps. Thanks.

Welcome Marv!

[sup_fan]

agreed! and don't forget Baby It's Me being done by an outside producer.

i'm wondering if there was something else more behind the scenes. Mary and Pedro had caused quite a bit of commotion with the top Motown staffers. and of course her big lawsuit could NOT have helped things.

Randy's Beyoncé book gives some props to Matthew Knowles for having the vision to find creative outlets for all 3 girls in Destiny's Child. hence their really not having the internal struggles of other girl groups. B is obviously the superstar but Michelle and Kelly have both had their own successes. Imagine if Berry had had this vision with the Sups.

[luke]

Good point sup_fan. As Neil Bigart said mary had the potential to be another Donna Summer and Flo could have been a knockout on Broadway/a Nessun Dorma like Aretha.

[marv2]

agreed! and don't forget Baby It's Me being done by an outside producer.

i'm wondering if there was something else more behind the scenes. Mary and Pedro had caused quite a bit of commotion with the top Motown staffers. and of course her big lawsuit could NOT have helped things.

Randy's Beyoncé book gives some props to Matthew Knowles for having the vision to find creative outlets for all 3 girls in Destiny's Child. hence their really not having the internal struggles of other girl groups. B is obviously the superstar but Michelle and Kelly have both had their own successes. Imagine if Berry had had this vision with the Sups.

That's funny because many of the "top Motown staffers" were always over at Mary and Pedro's house for parties. They never missed one of Mary's parties. LOL!

[RanRan79]

I'm with Luke. Like I said previously, they were looking for a reason to drop Mary and they used Dudgeon as an excuse. I would add though, there is a difference in situations in which those outside producers like Richard Perry and Niles Rodgers were brought in: Motown greenlit those decisions and with Dudgeon they did not.

[RanRan79]

Then they were talking to her about coming back as early as 1982 when they wanted to put the Supremes back together with Mary.

I think somebody was blowing smoke up Mary's butt. There's no way that I buy Motown seriously considering putting the Supremes back together unless it was Wilson, Ross and Birdsong. They didn't give a shit about the group just a few years prior, so why go through the trouble [[and surely they had to have known Mary Wilson of 1982/83 was not Mary Wilson of 1976/77, which meant she would be even more trouble because she would not want to be controlled at all) of bringing them back? The general public didn't give a shit about the Jean-less Supremes [[and if my memory serves me it was the MSC grouping Motown was "interested" in) in the 70s, so what had changed in the 80s from the company's perspective? I suppose- if I were going to buy Motown's interest in a 80s Supremes- Motown might have wanted to give the Pointer Sisters some competition, but I really don't think MSC was the grouping to do it. Jean joining Mary and Cindy, perhaps. [[Although I doubt Jean would have been interested in rejoining Motown.) Diana joining Mary and Cindy, definitely. Scherrie? I laugh at the absurdity of the entire scenario.

[RanRan79]

Good point sup_fan. As Neil Bigart said mary had the potential to be another Donna Summer and Flo could have been a knockout on Broadway/a Nessun Dorma like Aretha.

Mary, another Donna Summer? I don't think so. She needed to get far away from disco. I think the 70s would have been good to Flo. I can hear her doing southern soul in the early part of the decade and I think she would have been great on the kinds of stuff Gloria Gaynor was doing with disco.

[kenneth]

They're not going to let them become a State. LOL!

That's correct about Puerto Rico. They did have a vote, but it was a symbolic vote with no legal "teeth." Like an opinion poll.

[marv2]

I think somebody was blowing smoke up Mary's butt. There's no way that I buy Motown seriously considering putting the Supremes back together unless it was Wilson, Ross and Birdsong. They didn't give a shit about the group just a few years prior, so why go through the trouble [[and surely they had to have known Mary Wilson of 1982/83 was not Mary Wilson of 1976/77, which meant she would be even more trouble because she would not want to be controlled at all) of bringing them back? The general public didn't give a shit about the Jean-less Supremes [[and if my memory serves me it was the MSC grouping Motown was "interested" in) in the 70s, so what had changed in the 80s from the company's perspective? I suppose- if I were going to buy Motown's interest in a 80s Supremes- Motown might have wanted to give the Pointer Sisters some competition, but I really don't think MSC was the grouping to do it. Jean joining Mary and Cindy, perhaps. [[Although I doubt Jean would have been interested in rejoining Motown.) Diana joining Mary and Cindy, definitely. Scherrie? I laugh at the absurdity of the entire scenario.

Look. It wasn't even that complicated. Berry and Motown were still not happy that Diana Ross went to RCA and Marvin went to Columbia. They felt the company was losing it's identity. The Temptations Reunion went well for the most part and so they thought a Supremes Reunion might be worthwhile. Mary did not instigate that. Someone else brought the idea to Mr. Gordy.

[marv2]

Mary, another Donna Summer? I don't think so. She needed to get far away from disco. I think the 70s would have been good to Flo. I can hear her doing southern soul in the early part of the decade and I think she would have been great on the kinds of stuff Gloria Gaynor was doing with disco.

But that is what they were talking about back then. Mary, Donna Summers, Grace Jones and all of them were hanging out often partying in New York in those days. This "next Donna Summer" talk was before the "next Tina Turner" talk started LOL! I remember all of this stuff. I am impressing only myself here LOL!!!

[marv2]

That's correct about Puerto Rico. They did have a vote, but it was a symbolic vote with no legal "teeth." Like an opinion poll.

Although I hate what is going on in Puerto Rico now, I just don't see them becoming the 51st State.

[Thornton]

Sidebar: I just posted a thread with a link to the demo version of "This Is Why I Believe In You" if anyone is interested in listening.

[marv2]

Sidebar: I just posted a thread with a link to the demo version of "This Is Why I Believe In You" if anyone is interested in listening.

I got it and you are DA BEST! Thank you

[luke]

I'm listening Marv! Mary was a trendsetter a la Green River pre Tina. My love life is a disaster/pre She works hard for the money. And remember she was offered Holiday!!

[Ozmo]

I think somebody was blowing smoke up Mary's butt. There's no way that I buy Motown seriously considering putting the Supremes back together unless it was Wilson, Ross and Birdsong. They didn't give a shit about the group just a few years prior, so why go through the trouble [[and surely they had to have known Mary Wilson of 1982/83 was not Mary Wilson of 1976/77, which meant she would be even more trouble because she would not want to be controlled at all) of bringing them back? The general public didn't give a shit about the Jean-less Supremes [[and if my memory serves me it was the MSC grouping Motown was "interested" in) in the 70s, so what had changed in the 80s from the company's perspective? I suppose- if I were going to buy Motown's interest in a 80s Supremes- Motown might have wanted to give the Pointer Sisters some competition, but I really don't think MSC was the grouping to do it. Jean joining Mary and Cindy, perhaps. [[Although I doubt Jean would have been interested in rejoining Motown.) Diana joining Mary and Cindy, definitely. Scherrie? I laugh at the absurdity of the entire scenario.

I think that the success of the musical 'Dreamgirls' and subsequent publicity relating to the Supremes as it's inspiration played a big part in Motown's interest in reforming the group to capitalise on this attention. The lineup was to be Mary, Scherrie and Cindy.

Mary has stated that Berry Gordy was not overly enthusiastic about the idea which must have been pitched by others at the company, so she saw no reason to proceed, which was probably the right decision.

[luke]

I remember reading a comment by Cindy in Jet magazine about their re-forming.

[blackguy69]

I think that the success of the musical 'Dreamgirls' and subsequent publicity relating to the Supremes as it's inspiration played a big part in Motown's interest in reforming the group to capitalise on this attention. The lineup was to be Mary, Scherrie and Cindy.

Mary has stated that Berry Gordy was not overly enthusiastic about the idea which must have been pitched by others at the company, so she saw no reason to proceed, which was probably the right decision.p

Part of it was seeing the $ the temptations reunion so someone thought why not the supremes

[marv2]

I'm listening Marv! Mary was a trendsetter a la Green River pre Tina. My love life is a disaster/pre She works hard for the money. And remember she was offered Holiday!!

She was and in a way it was to be expected. After all, she is one of the biggest icons of the sixties along with Diana Ross, Florence Ballard, the Beatles, Dylan and the Stones. Those were some of the most popular, successful artists of that decade.

Here's a bit of trivia you may not know but Mary Wilson was asked to audition for the role of "Clair Huxtable" on the Cosby Show by Mr. Cosby himself. Phylicia Rashad got the part and the rest is history.

[sup_fan]

I'm not saying it was a good idea. Or a well thought out one. But 60s nostalgia was hot at this time. The whole Big Chill thing. While Motown was certainly innovative in some ways, they also were big on jumping on a bandwagon. If they could get a few bucks out of it, why not. As we know, many if not most Motown decisions were not based on sentiment or artistry. But just cold hard cash

[marv2]

p

Part of it was seeing the $ the temptations reunion so someone thought why not the supremes


Exactly....................

[Boogiedown]

Marv2:

Disco was just about over by the Fall of 1979. That album should have come out in '77 or '78.




Pairing Mary with Hal Davis is proof to me that Motown wasn't serious about Mary; Davis was ice cold in 1979
, had not had a major hit in over three years.

The second problem is that Motown was running out of in-house producers. Most had left and the company now had acts that write and produce themselves.

If Motown wanted Mary they could have approached Rick James or Stevie Wonder to launch her, maybe even James Carmichael. Of the three, Stevie likely would have taken the challenge

Couldn't you say the same thing about Hal Davis when they assigned him to Diana Ross in 76, he'd had a couple of dry years then too .


And just as it might be argued that disco wasn't the right sound for Mary , equally would it have been said of Diana pre-LOVE HANGOVER. I don't think anyone at Motown had any intentions of making Diana a club favorite including [[and especially) Diana herself, but by doing so, it was the biggest favor Hal Davis could have awarded her career. It's these disco hits of hers that give her concerts a driving energy even to this day. Hal Davis did the same thing for Thelma Houston giving her such a big disco song that it's provided her a lifetime career of performing .
So why not see if this same fortune could be repeated again with Mary. No one in 1979 knew disco was about to implode, so it was acceptable, even desirable, to include the genre in a project. Mary needed to land somewhere , and disco, a female vocalists' haven, for her remained virgin territory . Diana Ross at this same time was still embracing disco and her resulting work with Chic would garner some of the most successful music of her catalogue.

As far as RED HOT being released too late , I agree that the disco style being utilized in it was dated for 1979 and no DJ was looking to play music that sounded like the same o same o. I don't think the record would have fared any better a year or more earlier though . The record is weak in several ways and even in disco, hearing something like 'RED HOT' repeated too much , as in over and over [[and over) again, gets tiresome.
IMO , the bass line in RED HOT is a rambling mess . The best hope would have been to pull forward that piano part beginning at 3:23 and make that the song's driving force instead of that confused bass line . Most of the Linda Clifford growls could go too . Etc.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3PQCpXkZ_c

Back to Mary being stuck with Hal Davis, do we feel the same about Syreeta when she worked with Davis following this project ?

[kenneth]

She was and in a way it was to be expected. After all, she is one of the biggest icons of the sixties along with Diana Ross, Florence Ballard, the Beatles, Dylan and the Stones. Those were some of the most popular, successful artists of that decade.

Here's a bit of trivia you may not know but Mary Wilson was asked to audition for the role of "Clair Huxtable" on the Cosby Show by Mr. Cosby himself. Phylicia Rashad got the part and the rest is history.

Did she actually audition for the part? I never knew that.

Another piece of funny trivia "Cosby" related. Phylicia Rashad had 2 [[I think) albums on Casablanca. I have one, "Josphine Superstar", kind of a take off on Josephine Baker. I know I've never played it but just one of those things, when I saw it, I had to have it!

[marv2]

Did she actually audition for the part? I never knew that.

Another piece of funny trivia "Cosby" related. Phylicia Rashad had 2 [[I think) albums on Casablanca. I have one, "Josphine Superstar", kind of a take off on Josephine Baker. I know I've never played it but just one of those things, when I saw it, I had to have it!

I believe she did read for the part.

[marv2]

Couldn't you say the same thing about Hal Davis when they assigned him to Diana Ross in 76, he'd had a couple of dry years then too .


And just as it might be argued that disco wasn't the right sound for Mary , equally would it have been said of Diana pre-LOVE HANGOVER. I don't think anyone at Motown had any intentions of making Diana a club favorite including [[and especially) Diana herself, but by doing so, it was the biggest favor Hal Davis could have awarded her career. It's these disco hits of hers that give her concerts a driving energy even to this day. Hal Davis did the same thing for Thelma Houston giving her such a big disco song that it's provided her a lifetime career of performing .
So why not see if this same fortune could be repeated again with Mary. No one in 1979 knew disco was about to implode, so it was acceptable, even desirable, to include the genre in a project. Mary needed to land somewhere , and disco, a female vocalists' haven, for her remained virgin territory . Diana Ross at this same time was still embracing disco and her resulting work with Chic would garner some of the most successful music of her catalogue.

As far as RED HOT being released too late , I agree that the disco style being utilized in it was dated for 1979 and no DJ was looking to play music that sounded like the same o same o. I don't think the record would have fared any better a year or more earlier though . The record is weak in several ways and even in disco, hearing something like 'RED HOT' repeated too much , as in over and over [[and over) again, gets tiresome.
IMO , the bass line in RED HOT is a rambling mess . The best hope would have been to pull forward that piano part beginning at 3:23 and make that the song's driving force instead of that confused bass line . Most of the Linda Clifford growls could go too . Etc.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3PQCpXkZ_c

Back to Mary being stuck with Hal Davis, do we feel the same about Syreeta when she worked with Davis following this project ?

Some of the remixes I've heard of "Red Hot" have been VERY good.

[Boogiedown]

Some of the remixes I've heard of "Red Hot" have been VERY good.
when you say remixes, there is more than just the Rusty Garner one?


of which I believe is this:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otk2H51VLd0

and I agree, imo, it's an improvement, for one thing, easily 50% less "red hots" heard throughout. lol!
The back up girls have been relegated to a less prominent role. Vocally more sparse, including removing Mary's "rap" piece about her phone number. Very jarring mix at 1:20 Rusty!
Still don't care for the bass line , but that could just be me; the last 45 seconds, removing the vocals there and concluding the record with more of that piano work instead , nice!

One more thought in defense of Motown. They bothered to have the song remixed and then released it as both a promo 12" for the clubs [[added: on red vinyl! no less) and as a commercial retail pressing for the fans. Quite a bother that doesn't strike me as particularly nefarious!

[marv2]

Yes there are several remixes done in recent years. Here is the most recent one by Glenn Rivera from earlier this year:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFCgEtnIM08

[marv2]

This one is my favorite by Donald Bumps from about 3 years ago:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQSnPv3Gyko

[Boogiedown]

oh .
but no other "real " ones from back in the actual day. I gotcha.

I could've gone with that Bumps one back then, bass line and all! I don't think Mary would've liked it one bit as a release though. She's been all but eliminated! lol!
Very Walter Gibbons.

Oh oh third play going on fourth: I'M HOOKED!

[Bluebrock]

I really don't know how it did in can I say England without offending anyone? But it also was included in the compilation CD series Motown by the Year - 1980.
It didn't make the top 100. One of the better songs on an otherwise dire debut but Mary was stone cold at the time and it received no airplay beyond the specialist soul shows, and even there it had limited play. I was seemingly one of the few who bought it.

[Bluebrock]

It wasnt really a released single in the UK it was a prromo single which means about 100 copies was pressed and passed out to radio stations but never took of and wasnt released to the
https://www.discogs.com/Mary-Wilson-Pick-Up-The-Pieces/release/4104168
I think you may be right Roberta. My copy was a promo copy that i purchased from a specialist music shop.

[marv2]

It didn't make the top 100. One of the better songs on an otherwise dire debut but Mary was stone cold at the time and it received no airplay beyond the specialist soul shows, and even there it had limited play. I was seemingly one of the few who bought it.


She got a lot of TV exposure over there.

[Roberta75]

She got a lot of TV exposure over there.

And yet all that TV exposure and still Mary Wilsons music has never charted. A bit like you said about Diane going on Oprah and it not helping move product. Oh well its all water under the bridge now.

[RanRan79]

Look. It wasn't even that complicated. Berry and Motown were still not happy that Diana Ross went to RCA and Marvin went to Columbia. They felt the company was losing it's identity. The Temptations Reunion went well for the most part and so they thought a Supremes Reunion might be worthwhile. Mary did not instigate that. Someone else brought the idea to Mr. Gordy.

I didn't think Mary had instigated it. She'd have to be a complete idiot to want back in that bag without Diana by her side. Mary's focus should have been forging her path alone and out of the shadow of the group, not rejoining it. Someone else bringing the idea to Gordy just means that someone else at Motown, besides Gordy, was an f'n idiot.

[RanRan79]

I'm not saying it was a good idea. Or a well thought out one. But 60s nostalgia was hot at this time. The whole Big Chill thing. While Motown was certainly innovative in some ways, they also were big on jumping on a bandwagon. If they could get a few bucks out of it, why not. As we know, many if not most Motown decisions were not based on sentiment or artistry. But just cold hard cash

Well I'm going to say it: It wasn't a good idea, nor was it well thought out. Lol Absolutely worst idea. I get the 60s nostalgia and I get someone wanting to do with the Supremes what had been done with the Tempts. But there's a couple of issues with that. For one, Scherrie in the lineup gives the Supremes a 70s/disco identity. I don't think the public would have given into 60s nostalgia for a disco lineup of Supremes. Not that I'm saying that's the type of music they would have been doing, but that was their identity as a lineup in the 70s, which just doesn't conjure up the feels of the 60s. The other thing is that the Tempts reunion was what it was because of the presence of two people: David Ruffin and Eddie Kendricks, two people who immediately come to mind when the name "Temptations" is uttered. Nobody outside of us diehard Supremes fans and music historians think of Scherrie Payne when we think of Supremes. Also David hadn't performed as a Tempt since 1968, Eddie since 1971. And both left the group when the group was still extremely popular. Of course their reunion was going to be newsworthy.

MSC hadn't even been gone 10 years when this reunion talk started and the last time they were together they were riding on one "hit" that barely made the top 40 pop and couldn't manage to crawl it's way into the top 20 r&b. Nobody cared. And now all of a sudden in 1983 people were supposed to run to stores to pick up the latest Supremes' album? The only way Motown could've capitalized successfully on Dreamgirls and the Tempts reunion with a Supremes reunion is if the label and all parties concerned could've reached an agreement where Diana rejoined Mary and Cindy. Nothing says 60s nostalgia like the 60s Supremes.

Gordy should've been offended by whoever walked into his office one day and said "I have a great idea...". Whomever it was should've been fired on the spot.

[marv2]

Well I'm going to say it: It wasn't a good idea, nor was it well thought out. Lol Absolutely worst idea. I get the 60s nostalgia and I get someone wanting to do with the Supremes what had been done with the Tempts. But there's a couple of issues with that. For one, Scherrie in the lineup gives the Supremes a 70s/disco identity. I don't think the public would have given into 60s nostalgia for a disco lineup of Supremes. Not that I'm saying that's the type of music they would have been doing, but that was their identity as a lineup in the 70s, which just doesn't conjure up the feels of the 60s. The other thing is that the Tempts reunion was what it was because of the presence of two people: David Ruffin and Eddie Kendricks, two people who immediately come to mind when the name "Temptations" is uttered. Nobody outside of us diehard Supremes fans and music historians think of Scherrie Payne when we think of Supremes. Also David hadn't performed as a Tempt since 1968, Eddie since 1971. And both left the group when the group was still extremely popular. Of course their reunion was going to be newsworthy.

MSC hadn't even been gone 10 years when this reunion talk started and the last time they were together they were riding on one "hit" that barely made the top 40 pop and couldn't manage to crawl it's way into the top 20 r&b. Nobody cared. And now all of a sudden in 1983 people were supposed to run to stores to pick up the latest Supremes' album? The only way Motown could've capitalized successfully on Dreamgirls and the Tempts reunion with a Supremes reunion is if the label and all parties concerned could've reached an agreement where Diana rejoined Mary and Cindy. Nothing says 60s nostalgia like the 60s Supremes.

Gordy should've been offended by whoever walked into his office one day and said "I have a great idea...". Whomever it was should've been fired on the spot.


Even if it were Suzanne DePasse? LOL!!!!

[RanRan79]

Couldn't you say the same thing about Hal Davis when they assigned him to Diana Ross in 76, he'd had a couple of dry years then too .

And just as it might be argued that disco wasn't the right sound for Mary , equally would it have been said of Diana pre-LOVE HANGOVER. I don't think anyone at Motown had any intentions of making Diana a club favorite including [[and especially) Diana herself, but by doing so, it was the biggest favor Hal Davis could have awarded her career. It's these disco hits of hers that give her concerts a driving energy even to this day. Hal Davis did the same thing for Thelma Houston giving her such a big disco song that it's provided her a lifetime career of performing .
So why not see if this same fortune could be repeated again with Mary. No one in 1979 knew disco was about to implode, so it was acceptable, even desirable, to include the genre in a project. Mary needed to land somewhere , and disco, a female vocalists' haven, for her remained virgin territory . Diana Ross at this same time was still embracing disco and her resulting work with Chic would garner some of the most successful music of her catalogue.

Diana Ross can sing just about any genre and seem at home. I think that's why it's always been easy for different producers with different types of sounds in mind to approach her to do the singing. She had already tackled a number of different things, so experimenting with her on a disco number like "Love Hangover" might have seemed like a no brainer. By the time of Mary's solo debut she had been a part of the disco music scene for years with the Supremes and it was those ballads on the albums that clearly showed what she was made of. I just think that if anyone at the label really wanted her to succeed they would have given her a project that played to her strengths.

I will say this in a small defense: most the songs IMO aren't good quality, no matter who was singing them. So it's possible- though I doubt it- that with better disco songs maybe- MAYBE- Mary's album wouldn't have been so bad.

[RanRan79]

Even if it were Suzanne DePasse? LOL!!!!

LOL Yes, even Suzanne. If she had a moment that was that dumb, how could she be trusted to make good decisions going forward? She would've been better served suggesting the Lewis Sisters get back together.

[sup_fan]

you hit on one of the key reasons Diana has been so successful. She has always been able to adapt to a wide range of music and not only do it well technically but to also convey the appropriate phrasing and emotion. Looking at the work she did with the Sups - country, soul, pop, broadway, MOR, etc. And those wonderful medley's the girls did like Fats Waller, Millie/Rose/Mame, Always, etc. That's always been part of her universal appeal.

So I don't think it's too shocking that she did well in disco. Love Hangover starts out sultry - right up Di's alley. then goes all dance/crazy. and the story goes that even SHE was uncertain if she could do it. But Hal anticipated that and turned the studio into a disco with lights and strobes. got her in the mood and off she went.

One genre Diana really isn't as strong in is heavy "soul." She certainly does a lovely job on r&b but i'm talking the style more like Aretha. Diana's voice just isn't as right of a fit there.

As for mary, she's an extremely talented performer and singer. I don't think her voice is as versatile as Diana's. Part of it is her range - mary has an amazing contra-alto voice. smokey and misty. But that doesn't always work as well with more pop-style or dance music. Yes mary had been doing disco with the Sups, but IMO the strongest Sup dance tracks during that era were with Scherrie on lead. Not mary. Also it's VERY different to be singing as part of a group doing disco vs singing as the LEAD in disco.

[luke]

I agree with a lot of what you said but Diana often doesn't express the feeling of the song as she smiles and does her schtick through some very sad songs e.g. My World is Empty Without You Babe...Love is here and now you're gone, which I feel has limited her appeal. She is great on songs like Love Hangover, the Boss etc. Mary is great on He's My Man and This Is Why I Believe and You're whats Missing ...though I do feel she is best on ballads/ jazz and some up tempo songs.

[marv2]

I agree with a lot of what you said but Diana often doesn't express the feeling of the song as she smiles and does her schtick through some very sad songs e.g. My World is Empty Without You Babe...Love is here and now you're gone, which I feel has limited her appeal. She is great on songs like Love Hangover, the Boss etc. Mary is great on He's My Man and This Is Why I Believe and You're whats Missing ...though I do feel she is best on ballads/ jazz and some up tempo songs.

Diana Ross has no Soul in her voice and the only way the tracks to Lady Sings the Blues worked to an extent is because he copied Billie Holidays licks. None of those songs had an ounce of originality to them. I prefer Mary Wilson and Jean Terrell especially singing live because they put feeling into their songs. When Mary sing's "I Am Changing" I am right there with her. We she's in a "mellow mood" like this, the atmosphere totally changes:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_c1ZdSmYYtA

[marv2]

Also from Mary's solo debut album "Mary Wilson" this duet with Billie Woodruff. This is fine as they both sound great, but the song would have been better slowed down a bit:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWNlSe8D7Tk

[marv2]

Interesting bit of trivia about Mary's debut album. Julia Waters Tillman and Maxine Waters Willard are on background vocals. These women were the background voices on "Someday We'll Be Together". Billy Woodruff, Clydene Jackson and Gloria Scott round out the background singers for the album.

[marv2]

Mary Wilson's "You're The Light That Guides My Way," even if it is sped up, is one of my favorite songs ever. Loving that song doesn't mean I have to go around and say Ross has no "soul" -- most of her songs may be "pop" but there are many soul songs in her oeuvre, and one must be deaf not recognizing that [[or have a different agenda). Pop, soul, who cares, as long as the song goes straight to the heart. Ross can do that, Mary Wilson can do that, Aretha can do that, and as I experienced live two week ago, Gladys Knight can do that. Rather than pitting those great ladies against each other, let's cherish the fact that we can still see and hear them perform live and listen to a great collection of recorded songs.

I love the song too from the first time I heard it in October 1979! I did not bring up Diana Ross. I only responded to a comment I saw. Anyway, I wished they had promoted this album more. I did hear a radio promo spot on a Pittsburgh station back at the time, but not much else.

[Roberta75]

Interesting bit of trivia about Mary's debut album. Julia Waters Tillman and Maxine Waters Willard are on background vocals. These women were the background voices on "Someday We'll Be Together". Billy Woodruff, Clydene Jackson and Gloria Scott round out the background singers for the album.


Thats fascinating. Just fascinating and real interesting. You sure know your background singers dear.

[luke]

Don't start none won't be none!lol. Just talking about stylistic preferences!

[marv2]

Don't start none won't be none!lol. Just talking about stylistic preferences!

Exactly. Sometimes you get people that just don't understand.

[RanRan79]

Everyone is entitled to their preference. No one can dictate what another person hears or feels when listening to any given singer. Diana Ross has soul when she sings in my book. No one can prove me wrong. And if you can't prove me wrong with evidence then your rebuttal must be an opinion, not fact. And that's the beauty of all of us loving music the way we do. We hear what we hear and feel what we feel. Diana, Mary, Jean, they possess gifts from God. I enjoy it all.

[TomatoTom123]

Everyone is entitled to their preference. No one can dictate what another person hears or feels when listening to any given singer. Diana Ross has soul when she sings in my book. No one can prove me wrong. And if you can't prove me wrong with evidence then your rebuttal must be an opinion, not fact. And that's the beauty of all of us loving music the way we do. We hear what we hear and feel what we feel. Diana, Mary, Jean, they possess gifts from God. I enjoy it all.

Yes, I agree with RanRan! [[except the gift from God bit, lol)

Music is so subjective which is what makes it wonderful!!!! :)

[captainjames]

I for one was glad Mary Wilson finally went solo. It finally revealed who and what Mary Wilson could do. We did not have to wait as long to hear Mary as we did Flo.

[captainjames]

I definitely understood why she remained with the group so long without branching out.

[RanRan79]

I definitely understood why she remained with the group so long without branching out.

I think she needed those extra years out of Diana's shadow to step into her own. But had Gordy made it a point to give Mary and Flo the encouragement and extra training that he gave Diana, IMO there would have been no need for a 70s Supremes, unless Gordy decided to bring in three new girls to carry on while the originals did their solo thing. When Diana left, they should have all left.

One of my favorite 70s Supremes songs is "A Heart Like Mine". Mary is absolutely breath taking. She doesn't have to run up and down the vocal scale. She isn't screeching and screaming. She's not even trying to be all light and airy. It's just a cool, smoky, laid back vocal that oozes soul. I listen to her singing that song and immediately wonder what she would have done with some of the stuff Roberta Flack was doing, like "First Time Ever I Saw Your Face". I like Diana's version of the song very much, but Mary would have killed it. Had Gordy thought to turn her into a Roberta Flack styled artist I think she would have been a great star in the 70s.

All the what ifs drive me crazy.

[marv2]

Mary Wilson singing Roberta Flack type songs would have been especially nice. Great observation.

[captainjames]

All kidding aside he could have done that with Katherine Anderson or Gladys Horton or even Lois Reeves. Those were three ladies who could sing. I never quite understood if it was because they were female and taboo or if Motown just couldn't handle the abundance of talent that came through that door. Berry did hold on to the Supremes for a long time without a hit. Most artists would have been shown the door. I always wondered what would have happened if Mary Wells had stayed with Motown.

[sup_fan]

i agree - I think something like Roberta's work would have been ideal for Mary. And with all of the growth in the "Quiet Storm" type of music in mid 70s, there was a market.

Imagine Barry White producing Mary!

[marv2]

i agree - I think something like Roberta's work would have been ideal for Mary. And with all of the growth in the "Quiet Storm" type of music in mid 70s, there was a market.

Imagine Barry White producing Mary!

Now that would have been awesome. Even a duet of the two.

[RanRan79]

All kidding aside he could have done that with Katherine Anderson or Gladys Horton or even Lois Reeves. Those were three ladies who could sing. I never quite understood if it was because they were female and taboo or if Motown just couldn't handle the abundance of talent that came through that door. Berry did hold on to the Supremes for a long time without a hit. Most artists would have been shown the door. I always wondered what would have happened if Mary Wells had stayed with Motown.

None of those women you mention were members of the all mighty Supremes. Truth be told, as unique as Diana Ross was, Gordy could've ridden down any street in Detroit [[or Chicago, Philly, NYC, DC, LA, etc) and found a Black girl who could sing and easily grab command of the r&b, pop and showtune genres and captivate an audience just as Diana Ross did. Luckily for us he found Diana Ross, but to think if he had never found her that he would never have been able to cultivate a future star of her caliber is insane.

The Supremes as a unit were a wonderful thing. The public loved them, not just her. So in my mind it would have been good business sense to see this cash cow as an eventual three cash cows, instead of putting all of his eggs in the one basket. Gordy and company certainly thought Florence and Mary were good enough to sing leads both on record and live. When did Kat Anderson or Lois Reeves ever get handed a lead vocalist sheet? Didn't think so.

[marv2]

None of those women you mention were members of the all mighty Supremes. Truth be told, as unique as Diana Ross was, Gordy could've ridden down any street in Detroit [[or Chicago, Philly, NYC, DC, LA, etc) and found a Black girl who could sing and easily grab command of the r&b, pop and showtune genres and captivate an audience just as Diana Ross did. Luckily for us he found Diana Ross, but to think if he had never found her that he would never have been able to cultivate a future star of her caliber is insane.

The Supremes as a unit were a wonderful thing. The public loved them, not just her. So in my mind it would have been good business sense to see this cash cow as an eventual three cash cows, instead of putting all of his eggs in the one basket. Gordy and company certainly thought Florence and Mary were good enough to sing leads both on record and live. When did Kat Anderson or Lois Reeves ever get handed a lead vocalist sheet? Didn't think so.


He did just that when he saw Jean Terrell in Miami.

[RanRan79]

All kidding aside he could have done that with Katherine Anderson or Gladys Horton or even Lois Reeves. Those were three ladies who could sing. I never quite understood if it was because they were female and taboo or if Motown just couldn't handle the abundance of talent that came through that door. Berry did hold on to the Supremes for a long time without a hit. Most artists would have been shown the door. I always wondered what would have happened if Mary Wells had stayed with Motown.

Don't forget in the 60s Motown was still an independent, relatively small operation. When you think about it, it's amazing that as many well known and hit making artists were able to be promoted at all during that time. But no, Gordy and company was not going to be able to push everyone. Some folks were going to get lost in the shuffle, both female and male. The company also went with who was hot. Once the Supremes hit, they never really lost their hotness, even with the occasional "flop" during the DRATS years. The Tempts stayed hot. The Tops were hot for a long time before slowing and then picking back up again. For all of the complaints about Martha and the Vandellas getting pushed aside, they didn't lose their hot streak either until late in the 60s. After that first year or so of hits, the Marvelettes were never the hot commodity those other groups I mentioned were.

Gordy held onto the Supremes and the Temptations despite their lack of hits. He knew he had something special in both. Best decision he ever made IMO.

[RanRan79]

i agree - I think something like Roberta's work would have been ideal for Mary. And with all of the growth in the "Quiet Storm" type of music in mid 70s, there was a market.

Imagine Barry White producing Mary!

Exactly! Mary's voice was well suited for that market. And just listen to Gloria Scott's Barry White album. Gloria's voice is a bit higher than Mary's and handles the higher notes better than Mary would've, but I can easily hear Mary singing those same songs. Plus Barry seemed to like working with females whose voices weren't necessarily "rangey" [[like Glodean). Mary and Barry would have been an excellent match.

[RanRan79]

He did just that when he saw Jean Terrell in Miami.

Good point.

[captainjames]

None of those women you mention were members of the all mighty Supremes. Truth be told, as unique as Diana Ross was, Gordy could've ridden down any street in Detroit [[or Chicago, Philly, NYC, DC, LA, etc) and found a Black girl who could sing and easily grab command of the r&b, pop and showtune genres and captivate an audience just as Diana Ross did. Luckily for us he found Diana Ross, but to think if he had never found her that he would never have been able to cultivate a future star of her caliber is insane.

The Supremes as a unit were a wonderful thing. The public loved them, not just her. So in my mind it would have been good business sense to see this cash cow as an eventual three cash cows, instead of putting all of his eggs in the one basket. Gordy and company certainly thought Florence and Mary were good enough to sing leads both on record and live. When did Kat Anderson or Lois Reeves ever get handed a lead vocalist sheet? Didn't think so.

Well, I am not sure we know everything that is in the vault or that we have heard everything that was recorded by them. How lucky we were that Motown found the girls and that Diana could sing just about anything.

[sup_fan]

another reason Berry selected Diana was her incredible work ethic and drive. she was willing to sacrifice just about anything and focus 100% on her goal. As much as I love mary, she's not know for having that level of drive. Even when Diana was 16, she worked harder than pretty much anyone there. and she let essentially nothing obstruct her work and goal. no heavy drinking, no drugs, no getting crazy.

Other artists had more personal issues that "got in the way." of course some of this could have been brought around by Berry's preoccupation with Diana. I think part of why M&TV declined as they did in the late 60s was her problems with drugs. Same with Wanda. Berry just wasn't willing to put up with that crap. if you couldn't stay focused, seems like you were done to him. I've always wondered if Mary's more laidback approach to things was really the cause of the initial difference between her and Berry.

[marv2]

another reason Berry selected Diana was her incredible work ethic and drive. she was willing to sacrifice just about anything and focus 100% on her goal. As much as I love mary, she's not know for having that level of drive. Even when Diana was 16, she worked harder than pretty much anyone there. and she let essentially nothing obstruct her work and goal. no heavy drinking, no drugs, no getting crazy.

Other artists had more personal issues that "got in the way." of course some of this could have been brought around by Berry's preoccupation with Diana. I think part of why M&TV declined as they did in the late 60s was her problems with drugs. Same with Wanda. Berry just wasn't willing to put up with that crap. if you couldn't stay focused, seems like you were done to him. I've always wondered if Mary's more laidback approach to things was really the cause of the initial difference between her and Berry.

I am not trying to start an argument but you see Sup_fan, you would have had to been there or speak to people who were there. All of the Supremes and many other Motown artists were hard workers and had tremendous drive. It was not Diana Ross alone that held those characteristics, it was the PR machine that put that story out to explain why she was getting the majority of the company's focus. She drank, she smoke, she played just like all of the rest of them. She got crazy once with a hat box that contained a dog that she used to beat the shit out of a flight attendant for example. All of them have done things. How do you think Mary Wilson continues to have a viable career after over 55 years if she did not have a strong work ethic and drive. How do you think as a woman she's be able to survive this long in the entertainment business by basically handling her own business without the support of some major corporation?

[luke]

Absolutely agree. They all worked their butts off. Florence got grief for having a bad flu yet Diana collapsed and couldnt do the shows and didn't get grief. The PR machine was in full swing. It's amazing those women could keep the schedule they did. Wanda was stuggling big time long before the Return of the Marvelettes album

[RanRan79]

Well, I am not sure we know everything that is in the vault or that we have heard everything that was recorded by them. How lucky we were that Motown found the girls and that Diana could sing just about anything.

No we haven't heard everything, but I can't imagine that there's a Kat or Lois lead in the vaults that no one has ever heard before and neither woman has bothered to mention in interviews. But I'll concede that we don't know. Even still, Kat and Lois were no Flo and Mary.

Absolutely agree with you on not just Motown's luck but our luck as fans that the Supremes made their home at Motown. Diana's beautiful voice led the group into music history. We're the better for it.

[RanRan79]

another reason Berry selected Diana was her incredible work ethic and drive. she was willing to sacrifice just about anything and focus 100% on her goal. As much as I love mary, she's not know for having that level of drive. Even when Diana was 16, she worked harder than pretty much anyone there. and she let essentially nothing obstruct her work and goal. no heavy drinking, no drugs, no getting crazy.

Other artists had more personal issues that "got in the way." of course some of this could have been brought around by Berry's preoccupation with Diana. I think part of why M&TV declined as they did in the late 60s was her problems with drugs. Same with Wanda. Berry just wasn't willing to put up with that crap. if you couldn't stay focused, seems like you were done to him. I've always wondered if Mary's more laidback approach to things was really the cause of the initial difference between her and Berry.

I think her work ethic and drive was secondary to what Gordy and company heard in Diana's voice. Without the golden voice, she could've lived at Hitsville and still not gotten the attention and push that she eventually received.

I think you're right about the personal issues. For all of Gordy's "Motown family" atmosphere, he mostly only cared about one thing: the almighty dollar. And particularly when you're a performer, one's "personal issues" can affect the bottom line and Gordy didn't seem to have much- if any- patience with that. From my perspective I think he exacerbated Florence's issues and because of that, I often see him as the villain in that part of the story. But where some of the others are concerned, from a business standpoint, I get where Gordy was coming from.

[RanRan79]

I am not trying to start an argument but you see Sup_fan, you would have had to been there or speak to people who were there. All of the Supremes and many other Motown artists were hard workers and had tremendous drive. It was not Diana Ross alone that held those characteristics, it was the PR machine that put that story out to explain why she was getting the majority of the company's focus. She drank, she smoke, she played just like all of the rest of them. She got crazy once with a hat box that contained a dog that she used to beat the shit out of a flight attendant for example. All of them have done things. How do you think Mary Wilson continues to have a viable career after over 55 years if she did not have a strong work ethic and drive. How do you think as a woman she's be able to survive this long in the entertainment business by basically handling her own business without the support of some major corporation?

Marv I'll be the first to defend Flo and Mary being hard workers. There is no way in hell that the Supremes could've kept going through those flop years if Diana was the only one serious about the craft. Those girls were busy because all three were serious about the business of singing and performing, which I think may also explain why Gordy kept them around through so many flops. Their collective ethic was on point.

However, one of the things that's always been clear to me from the many books I've read and interviews I've watched is that whether or not everyone liked her, they all agreed on one thing: that chick worked her butt off. And lets be real: she had to. Once the Supremes machine was set into motion and her voice became the identifiable voice of the group, all of the pressure was on her. Diana had self esteem issues and she seems to have used her singing and performing abilities to give folks a reason to say she was special. She had daddy issues, so she was willing to do whatever was necessary to please Gordy, who had this father/lover hold on her. She couldn't afford to slack off. She threw herself into her work, which is something I don't think Flo or Mary would have ever done. Mary was too much of a party girl. She was going to take time to swing from the chandelier. LOL Florence was too much of a family girl. I don't think she would have ever been happy having to do as much as Diana did. Flo needed a healthy balance between work and family. What did Diana have other than work? And that's not to say that she didn't have a life. We know she partied. We know she had a love life [[even outside of Gordy). But what was more important to Diana Ross than singing and performing? I say nothing and nobody [[other than her family and maybe Gordy), and that puts her in a different head space from Mary and Flo as it relates to the Supremes. All three worked hard, but one clearly was doing much more extra credit. LOL

[RanRan79]

Absolutely agree. They all worked their butts off. Florence got grief for having a bad flu yet Diana collapsed and couldnt do the shows and didn't get grief. The PR machine was in full swing. It's amazing those women could keep the schedule they did. Wanda was stuggling big time long before the Return of the Marvelettes album

Actually, according to Florence, she had to tear Gordy a new one after Diana's collapse because he was still trying to figure out a way to get her back onstage when she was clearly in no condition to do so. As I said previously, Gordy was all about the money. He had to fly out and see Diana personally in order to get the picture that the girl was sick. I imagine that the very idea of Diana Ross not pushing herself to continue would have been enough to signal to the people around her that something was off. With Florence Gordy didn't see her as important as Diana, he also believed that her physical ailments were really a mental thing [[which actually could've been the case sometimes as depression and anxiety can cause physical symptoms), but whatever the case he saw it as costing him money and Gordy didn't play that. One has to wonder if Diana had continued to have these episodes would Gordy have continued to support her or would he eventually move on to the next new thing?

[captainjames]

Marv I'll be the first to defend Flo and Mary being hard workers. There is no way in hell that the Supremes could've kept going through those flop years if Diana was the only one serious about the craft. Those girls were busy because all three were serious about the business of singing and performing, which I think may also explain why Gordy kept them around through so many flops. Their collective ethic was on point.

However, one of the things that's always been clear to me from the many books I've read and interviews I've watched is that whether or not everyone liked her, they all agreed on one thing: that chick worked her butt off. And lets be real: she had to. Once the Supremes machine was set into motion and her voice became the identifiable voice of the group, all of the pressure was on her. Diana had self esteem issues and she seems to have used her singing and performing abilities to give folks a reason to say she was special. She had daddy issues, so she was willing to do whatever was necessary to please Gordy, who had this father/lover hold on her. She couldn't afford to slack off. She threw herself into her work, which is something I don't think Flo or Mary would have ever done. Mary was too much of a party girl. She was going to take time to swing from the chandelier. LOL Florence was too much of a family girl. I don't think she would have ever been happy having to do as much as Diana did. Flo needed a healthy balance between work and family. What did Diana have other than work? And that's not to say that she didn't have a life. We know she partied. We know she had a love life [[even outside of Gordy). But what was more important to Diana Ross than singing and performing? I say nothing and nobody [[other than her family and maybe Gordy), and that puts her in a different head space from Mary and Flo as it relates to the Supremes. All three worked hard, but one clearly was doing much more extra credit. LOL

You made the best summary to what was going on that I have heard in a long time. You just don't know how close you came to the mark.

[Bluebrock]

You made the best summary to what was going on that I have heard in a long time. You just don't know how close you came to the mark.
I have done one hell of a lot of research recently and ranran79 appears to have hit the nail firmly on the head with most of these observations. I shall leave it at that until a certain someone comes back with his usual bias towards a certain Supreme and his usual vitriol against another Supreme and then i shall comment further.

[imakicola]

Very helpful. Thanks Tomato. I'm guessing USA refers to territories as well but not sure. Will research. America may refer to Canada , USA and Mexico and South America as well and Centeal America!

When referring to those countries, we say The Americas. Just "America" is the United States of America. At least where I come from in Canada.

[marv2]

When referring to those countries, we say The Americas. Just "America" is the United States of America. At least where I come from in Canada.

I also have notice that in Canada they use the term "North America" much more than in the United States.

[jim aka jtigre99]

I love the song too from the first time I heard it in October 1979! I did not bring up Diana Ross. I only responded to a comment I saw. Anyway, I wished they had promoted this album more. I did hear a radio promo spot on a Pittsburgh station back at the time, but not much else.

Red Hot made the top 10 playlist for WAMO in Pittsburgh, so I heard it played a number of times. By 1979, though, disco music was falling out of favor. I only found one copy of the album that I bought in Oakland by the campus of the University of Pittsburgh, where i was going to school.

[sup_fan]

totally appreciate your opinion and I wasn't trying to imply that others were lazy. what I was talking about was what's been outlined in a variety of books about how hard Diana worked. Even berry has often discussed how much she was willing to sacrifice. Marvin talks about how Diana would out rehearse anyone. Mary even mentions that Diana would be laser focused on her elements of a show or performance until they were as close to possible as she could make them

So my point is that Diana was almost obsessive about this and very few people would be. especially people in the late teens and early 20s.

[RanRan79]

totally appreciate your opinion and I wasn't trying to imply that others were lazy. what I was talking about was what's been outlined in a variety of books about how hard Diana worked. Even berry has often discussed how much she was willing to sacrifice. Marvin talks about how Diana would out rehearse anyone. Mary even mentions that Diana would be laser focused on her elements of a show or performance until they were as close to possible as she could make them

So my point is that Diana was almost obsessive about this and very few people would be. especially people in the late teens and early 20s.

Perfect word, "obsessive". That's what she was. I don't think neither Flo nor Mary could've been described that way, hard workers though they were.

[marv2]

Perfect word, "obsessive". That's what she was. I don't think neither Flo nor Mary could've been described that way, hard workers though they were.

Yep just image how they had to learn all of the background lyrics and harmonies to the songs. Then they had to learn all of the individual choreography specific to each song, combine them with the background parts and do them in synch and with as much precision as possible for all of those shows and concert appearances!

[marv2]

totally appreciate your opinion and I wasn't trying to imply that others were lazy. what I was talking about was what's been outlined in a variety of books about how hard Diana worked. Even berry has often discussed how much she was willing to sacrifice. Marvin talks about how Diana would out rehearse anyone. Mary even mentions that Diana would be laser focused on her elements of a show or performance until they were as close to possible as she could make them

So my point is that Diana was almost obsessive about this and very few people would be. especially people in the late teens and early 20s.

Let's be accurate here. There was not much rehearsal Diana had to do herself. All she was responsible for was standing in front of the mic and not forgetting the words to the songs. She, herself went over Cholly Atkins' head to Mr. Gordy and complained that she did not want to have to learn all those steps, the choreography. She said she'd make up her own! Go look at any of those old video clips. It is very rare that Diana Ross is doing the choreography while singing. Now if she had to rehearse harder, that tells me that she needed it! She needed extra work when it came to her appearance and manners too, which how she ended up at the Robert Powers School in Detroit!

[marv2]

Here's another one from Mary Wilson's debut solo album." I Love A Warm Summer Night"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-M0rOoM_dMA

[LoveSupreme]

Here's another one from Mary Wilson's debut solo album." I Love A Warm Summer Night"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-M0rOoM_dMA

I actually like this track. Nice job Mary.

[detmotownguy]

Absolutely agree. They all worked their butts off. Florence got grief for having a bad flu yet Diana collapsed and couldnt do the shows and didn't get grief. The PR machine was in full swing. It's amazing those women could keep the schedule they did. Wanda was stuggling big time long before the Return of the Marvelettes album. Didn't Mary stick up for Diane when she collapsed onstage?

[marv2]

. Didn't Mary stick up for Diane when she collapsed onstage?

Mary stood for her and just about every lady that has been in the Supremes starting back when they wrecked Berry's car in Pittsburgh way before they ever had a hit. If you watch the video on here of Mary in the Twin Cities, she explains what she's done for Diana Ross. Some people regurgitate the story of Diana loaning Mary $30,000 in 1981 [[which she paid back in less than a year with interest) but they never even imagine what Mary and Florence also done for Ross. Watch that video to learn more.

[Bluebrock]

Let's be accurate here. There was not much rehearsal Diana had to do herself. All she was responsible for was standing in front of the mic and not forgetting the words to the songs. She, herself went over Cholly Atkins' head to Mr. Gordy and complained that she did not want to have to learn all those steps, the choreography. She said she'd make up her own! Go look at any of those old video clips. It is very rare that Diana Ross is doing the choreography while singing. Now if she had to rehearse harder, that tells me that she needed it! She needed extra work when it came to her appearance and manners too, which how she ended up at the Robert Powers School in Detroit!
Yes.Let us be accurate here. Whatever you think of Diana her work ethic could not be faulted . Don't forget that during the day whilst Mary was "sleeping off" the excesses of her partying Diana was in the studio recording more songs, and the she had to perform the songs live later that evening. Mary did not even need to learn the lyrics to the songs. Mary could party into the wee small hours knowing she did not have to get out of her or someone elses bed until mid afternoon , so don't try and tell me she worked anywhere near as hard as Diana. She was paid the same amount of money for doing a fraction of the work.She was one lucky lady in many respects. If the Supremes did a bad show it would be all down to Diana and no=one would even think about blaming Mary such was her insignificance to the proceedings. Mary told me only 4 weeks ago that she was amazed that Diana didn't become seriously ill due to all her hard work. Smokey said Diana was always the first to arrive in the studio and the last to leave during the Supremes early years so please stop spouting your nonsense.

[honest man]

Let's be accurate here. There was not much rehearsal Diana had to do herself. All she was responsible for was standing in front of the mic and not forgetting the words to the songs. She, herself went over Cholly Atkins' head to Mr. Gordy and complained that she did not want to have to learn all those steps, the choreography. She said she'd make up her own! Go look at any of those old video clips. It is very rare that Diana Ross is doing the choreography while singing. Now if she had to rehearse harder, that tells me that she needed it! She needed extra work when it came to her appearance and manners too, which how she ended up at the Robert Powers School in Detroit!
WOW you really do talk such S--T.sick of some of the knob and Bell--- Posts on here.total crap.

[blackguy69]

WOW you really do talk such S--T.sick of some of the knob and Bell--- Posts on here.total crap.
You aren't exactly mr unbias yourself

[blackguy69]

Yes.Let us be accurate here. Whatever you think of Diana her work ethic could not be faulted . Don't forget that during the day whilst Mary was "sleeping off" the excesses of her partying Diana was in the studio recording more songs, and the she had to perform the songs live later that evening. Mary did not even need to learn the lyrics to the songs. Mary could party into the wee small hours knowing she did not have to get out of her or someone elses bed until mid afternoon , so don't try and tell me she worked anywhere near as hard as Diana. She was paid the same amount of money for doing a fraction of the work.She was one lucky lady in many respects. If the Supremes did a bad show it would be all down to Diana and no=one would even think about blaming Mary such was her insignificance to the proceedings. Mary told me only 4 weeks ago that she was amazed that Diana didn't become seriously ill due to all her hard work. Smokey said Diana was always the first to arrive in the studio and the last to leave during the Supremes early years so please stop spouting your nonsense.

Let me ask, whom relayed this information to you

[RanRan79]

I'll reiterate: all the books and interviews I've seen where Diana's Motown peers speak about her, most make mention of how hard she worked. No one says a word- specifically- about Flo and Mary. And again, that doesn't mean they were not hard workers. Any fool can see how hard they worked and that their hard work was an important component to the success of the group. But it doesn't take a genius to know that the front person for any group [[like a Diana Ross or Michael Jackson) is going to get the brunt of the work and the pressure. That is actually the case on any job. As fans who did not work with Diana Ross or the Supremes we can debate this all day with our only evidence being the finished product that we see and hear in their shows and television performances. But if I want a first person account of Diana Ross' work ethic I'll review the words of her peers who were actually around at the time. I trust their recollections. I don't always trust the opinions I read on Soulful Detroit.

[blackguy69]

Ran love your perspective on things.

[John G. Stumpf]

Yes.Let us be accurate here. Whatever you think of Diana her work ethic could not be faulted . Don't forget that during the day whilst Mary was "sleeping off" the excesses of her partying Diana was in the studio recording more songs, and the she had to perform the songs live later that evening. Mary did not even need to learn the lyrics to the songs. Mary could party into the wee small hours knowing she did not have to get out of her or someone elses bed until mid afternoon , so don't try and tell me she worked anywhere near as hard as Diana. She was paid the same amount of money for doing a fraction of the work.She was one lucky lady in many respects. If the Supremes did a bad show it would be all down to Diana and no=one would even think about blaming Mary such was her insignificance to the proceedings. Mary told me only 4 weeks ago that she was amazed that Diana didn't become seriously ill due to all her hard work. Smokey said Diana was always the first to arrive in the studio and the last to leave during the Supremes early years so please stop spouting your nonsense.

Hello Bluebrock! First I want to let you know that I thoroughly enjoy reading your posts on Diana Ross. How lucky can this forum get to have someone who worked with her? My Uncle worked at EMI/ Capitol UK about the same time you worked there, 1980 -1999. He told me to ask you your name because he obviously knows you. He is going to send some photos taken at various parties so I can upload them. Specifically, he has the ones from the party EMI threw to celebrate Diana's One Woman Collection. I am so excited!! I know this is going to bring so many cherished memories!

[RanRan79]

Ran love your perspective on things.

I appreciate that BG!

[blackguy69]

I appreciate that BG!

You're welcome. I do enjoy stories about the girls. But its kinda hard to swallow petty stories that get flung around by those who weren't there and got the story second or third parties removed.

[marv2]

"I've Got What You Need" from the album "Mary Wilson"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBw3suQZz2E

[RanRan79]

You're welcome. I do enjoy stories about the girls. But its kinda hard to swallow petty stories that get flung around by those who weren't there and got the story second or third parties removed.

Agreed, and may I add sometimes the stories aren't second or third party at all, but instead are figments of someone's warped imagination that they wish to pass off as truth. The saddest part is that because of the anonymity that the internet provides, as well as the lack of participation by people who were actually around at the time, it can be very difficult to decipher what's truth from fiction. And especially in the case of the Supremes it does them all a disservice.

[jobeterob]

Yes.Let us be accurate here. Whatever you think of Diana her work ethic could not be faulted . Don't forget that during the day whilst Mary was "sleeping off" the excesses of her partying Diana was in the studio recording more songs, and the she had to perform the songs live later that evening. Mary did not even need to learn the lyrics to the songs. Mary could party into the wee small hours knowing she did not have to get out of her or someone elses bed until mid afternoon , so don't try and tell me she worked anywhere near as hard as Diana. She was paid the same amount of money for doing a fraction of the work.She was one lucky lady in many respects. If the Supremes did a bad show it would be all down to Diana and no=one would even think about blaming Mary such was her insignificance to the proceedings. Mary told me only 4 weeks ago that she was amazed that Diana didn't become seriously ill due to all her hard work. Smokey said Diana was always the first to arrive in the studio and the last to leave during the Supremes early years so please stop spouting your nonsense.

I miss so much on holiday.... but I did pick up the "her or someone else's bed" - lol, bad bad bad, but funny and I guess true

[Bluebrock]

Hello Bluebrock! First I want to let you know that I thoroughly enjoy reading your posts on Diana Ross. How lucky can this forum get to have someone who worked with her? My Uncle worked at EMI/ Capitol UK about the same time you worked there, 1980 -1999. He told me to ask you your name because he obviously knows you. He is going to send some photos taken at various parties so I can upload them. Specifically, he has the ones from the party EMI threw to celebrate Diana's One Woman Collection. I am so excited!! I know this is going to bring so many cherished memories!
Sounds good!! Please inbox me.

[Bluebrock]

Let me ask, whom relayed this information to you
Any specific part blackguy69?

[blackguy69]

Any specific part blackguy69?
All of what you written

[daviddh]

thanks Bluebrock for the info.
also love War Summer Night .this should have been a single . best track on the lp.
also isn't his lp coming to cd in the near future

[John G. Stumpf]

Sounds good!! Please inbox me.
I'm sorry Bluebrock. I plan to share them with the entire forum not just you personally. My Uncle won't act until you give me your name and he can check it on the directory. Sorry for the confusion. My Uncle is very cynical and doesn't trust anyone. He wants to make sure that you are not a fraud or a con artist. Thanks again. If I post them you won't be anonymous anymore so you can just tell me in the forum. Sorry again for any confusion and keep up the great posts!

[luke]

It's about time the truth be told about those unmotivated party girls. Miss Diana Ross complained that that silly lazy Birdsong woman never wanted to be in the studio recording and poor Diana had to do all the work:[[. I have been told that Cindy told BG personally she hated to sing and wanted those Andanties on all records. [[Everyone knows that silly Cindy woman should have gotten down to 90lbs and not eat or sleep and be very nasty to people. The nerve of her! )And that Mary woman... dont get me started. She and that other woman Flo told BG and DR to never ever let them sing a lead and to get those Andanties on records as they did NOT want to get out of bed!! Why any of these ladies became singers remains a mystery to this day! They did not want to feel valued on records and certainly not get appreciation in public for their singing and definitely not feel that they were contributing!!' In fact that silly Flo girl had walking pneumonia and actually she just didn't want to sing her one lead so she begged Diana to please sing it always!! And do you know that Mary girl actually asked for a two week delay to record That Love Child song cause she felt exhausted and her friend Flo was gone and she probably was scared cause she was being reduced to a background singer !!' What nerve!! More to come. It's time to tell it all!!!

[detmotownguy]

I'm sorry Bluebrock. I plan to share them with the entire forum not just you personally. My Uncle won't act until you give me your name and he can check it on the directory. Sorry for the confusion. My Uncle is very cynical and doesn't trust anyone. He wants to make sure that you are not a fraud or a con artist. Thanks again. If I post them you won't be anonymous anymore so you can just tell me in the forum. Sorry again for any confusion and keep up the great posts! I cannot wait to see these photos. Bluerock should be able to add his commentary to add some color to the photos. Hopefully Bluerock complies.

[marv2]

It's about time the truth be told about those unmotivated party girls. Miss Diana Ross complained that that silly lazy Birdsong woman never wanted to be in the studio recording and poor Diana had to do all the work:[[. I have been told that Cindy told BG personally she hated to sing and wanted those Andanties on all records. [[Everyone knows that silly Cindy woman should have gotten down to 90lbs and not eat or sleep and be very nasty to people. The nerve of her! )And that Mary woman... dont get me started. She and that other woman Flo told BG and DR to never ever let them sing a lead and to please tell get those Andanties on records as they did NOT want to get out of bed!! Why any of these ladies became singers remains a mystery to this day! They did not want to feel valued on records and certainly not get appreciation in public for their singing and definitely not feel that they were contributing!!' In fact that silly Flo girl had walking pneumonia and actually she just didn't want to sing her one lead so she begged Diana to please sing it always!! And do you know that Mary girl actually asked for a two week delay to record That Love Child song cause she felt exhausted and her friend Flo was gone and she probably was scared cause she was being reduced to a background singer !!' What nerve!! More to come. It's time to tell it all!!!

That just about sums it up! That is what a handful of people want to believe.

[luke]

Exactly when it's down in black and white the absurdity is so obvious!

[marv2]

I cannot wait to see these photos. Bluerock should be able to add his commentary to add some color to the photos. Hopefully Bluerock complies.

What photos? I like photos.

[marv2]

Exactly when it's down in black and white the absurdity is so obvious!

Mary would even get a big laugh out what you wrote. LOL! When urban myths get out there and spread around it can be pretty powerful. Still, it is just that........an urban myth.

[luke]

I hope they don't think my post was serious...they just might. Facetious, kids!

[marv2]

I hope they don't think my post was serious...they just might. Facetious, kids!

You know, at this point in time who cares if they don't get it. Some here were just too young or not even born to remember the Original Supremes when they were at their peak. They just make up things to add to what they read somewhere that was written decades after the fact.

[detmotownguy]

You know, at this point in time who cares if they don't get it. Some here were just too young or not even born to remember the Original Supremes where they at their peak. They just make up things to add to what they read somewhere that was written decades after the fact. Well to be fair Marv, there are individuals who do remember the Original grouping but make things up. Yes, even on this forum.

[RanRan79]

Can't rewrite history.

[marv2]

Well to be fair Marv, there are individuals who do remember the Original grouping but make things up. Yes, even on this forum.

Ok I can go with that. What I can't go with is when they start painting scenarios with dialog that was supposedly spoken by the subjects 40-50 years ago. For example stuff like "Berry was determined to get a hit and would stop at nothing to get it, so he ran over his mother who was standing in the way of him getting hits on one of his artists" You know, shit like that! LOL! That is a bit exaggerated but you know what I mean.

[detmotownguy]

Ok I can go with that. What I can't go with is when they start painting scenarios with dialog that was supposedly spoken by the subjects 40-50 years ago. For example stuff like "Berry was determined to get a hit and would stop at nothing to get it, so he ran over his mother who was standing in the way of him getting hits on one of his artists" You know, shit like that! LOL! That is a bit exaggerated but you know what I mean. Point well made! Good example!

[John G. Stumpf]

I cannot wait to see these photos. Bluerock should be able to add his commentary to add some color to the photos. Hopefully Bluerock complies.

You will never see the photos. He refuses to reveal his identity, which I don't understand if you work in the music industry and have an upcoming book - you are a public figure. I don't understand this at all. I will not mention anything about this again in this forum. My Uncle has already drawn his own conclusions. Con men, frauds, and imposters are rampant in the industry. I do respect everyone's need for privacy.

[vgalindo]

You will never see the photos. He refuses to reveal his identity, which I don't understand if you work in the music industry and have an upcoming book - you are a public figure. I don't understand this at all. I will not mention anything about this again in this forum. My Uncle has already drawn his own conclusions. " I will not give my pearls to swine!" Con men, frauds, and imposters are rampant in the industry. I do respect everyone's need for privacy.
I don't understand why you and your uncle needs Bluebrocks identity so you can share some photos! You are sounding more like a con man or fraud. I don't get it?? I enjoy Bluebrocks posts and love the information he shares with us.

[John G. Stumpf]

I don't understand why you and your uncle needs Bluebrocks identity so you can share some photos! You are sounding more like a con man or fraud. I don't get it?? I enjoy Bluebrocks posts and love the information he shares with us.



My Uncle is Robert Stumpf. He was forced out of EMI in in the late 90s CD price fixing scandal. Charges were levied in the range of 500 million. Bodies had to be delivered and he was one of them. In agreement, he was disbarred to avoid criminal charges. He has subsequently regained his law license and practices copyright law and contractual law.

If Bluebrock was actually an employee of the company, my Uncle said that he has a common law privilege to the photos which exonerates my Uncle from any possible liability, a legal technicality. I am not sure how the law works since I am not an attorney but I do know celebrities sue all the time over photos being used without their permission.

I love Bluebrock's posts and the information he shares with the forum.

Anyway the issue is moot because Bluebrock will not reveal his identity, and prefers the status of the anonymous internet music industry insider. Again, I respect everyone's need for privacy.

I am not anonymous nor is my Uncle.

[TomatoTom123]

Hey John, I don't believe Bluebrock has out-and-out refused to reveal his identity... he hasn't yet said either way if he will or won't. He might not have checked into the forum for a day or two, you know...

IMO you're jumping to the conclusion that he is a con man way too quickly!!!! Lol :)

[John G. Stumpf]

You and Vgalindo are jumping to conclusions. I am not concluding anything and I respect his need for privacy and his status of the forum's anonymous music industry insider. My Uncle is another story. He is just a cynical person because of his experiences. Bluebrock is not going to reveal his identity. He has out and out refused to do so. This has been presented to me. I respect his decision. I will not mention this again.

[marv2]

You and Vgalindo are jumping to conclusions. I am not concluding anything and I respect his need for privacy and his status of the forum's anonymous music industry insider. My Uncle is another story. He is just a cynical person because of his experiences. Bluebrock is not going to reveal his identity. He has out and out refused to do so. This has been presented to me. I respect his decision. I will not mention this again.

There have been many people the music industry and from Motown that have posted here at Soulful Detroit over the years and not one of them had a problem telling us who they were. That was the only way we knew who they were. There have been a long list of industry people that have been here to share with us.

[John G. Stumpf]

“Copyright” describes the rights given to creators for their literary and artistic works.

But we often don’t consider copyright when we look at our family photos, or go to get them copied. Even though it is so easy to copy an image—with scanners, photo-quality printers, and copy stations—it is still illegal.

Under the Federal Copyright Act of 1976, photographs are protected by copyright from the moment of creation.
Photographers have the exclusive right to reproduce their photographs [[right to control the making of copies). Copyright
Unless you have permission from the photographer, you can’t copy, distribute [[no scanning and sending them to others), publicly display [[no putting them online), or create derivative works from photographs.

In the contract, the photographer authorized release of the pictures to company employees. Thanks.

[LoveSupreme]

It's about time the truth be told about those unmotivated party girls. Miss Diana Ross complained that that silly lazy Birdsong woman never wanted to be in the studio recording and poor Diana had to do all the work:[[. I have been told that Cindy told BG personally she hated to sing and wanted those Andanties on all records. [[Everyone knows that silly Cindy woman should have gotten down to 90lbs and not eat or sleep and be very nasty to people. The nerve of her! )And that Mary woman... dont get me started. She and that other woman Flo told BG and DR to never ever let them sing a lead and to get those Andanties on records as they did NOT want to get out of bed!! Why any of these ladies became singers remains a mystery to this day! They did not want to feel valued on records and certainly not get appreciation in public for their singing and definitely not feel that they were contributing!!' In fact that silly Flo girl had walking pneumonia and actually she just didn't want to sing her one lead so she begged Diana to please sing it always!! And do you know that Mary girl actually asked for a two week delay to record That Love Child song cause she felt exhausted and her friend Flo was gone and she probably was scared cause she was being reduced to a background singer !!' What nerve!! More to come. It's time to tell it all!!!

The sarcasm in this post is so thick you could spread it on toast...LOL!!!

[luke]

Oh thank goodness!lolol...

[RanRan79]

Who the fuck would trust anyone on Soulful Detroit with their personal information? This forum is rife with downright nasty exchanges between members, usually with Diana Ross and/or Mary Wilson as a subject. And while I enjoy Bluebrock's very specific recollections of Diana's post Motown solo career, he has proven to stoop just as low as so many others by hurling insults Mary Wilson's way. Why would he ever potentially pass on his info to someone who may desire to take their devotion to Ms. Wilson to a full blown psychotic episode? I know I wouldn't. And having joined only this month and 14 posts in and using words like "the forum's anonymous music industry insider", my bullshit radar is going off...LOUDLY. GTFOH with that bullshit.

[John G. Stumpf]

There have been many people the music industry and from Motown that have posted here at Soulful Detroit over the years and not one of them had a problem telling us who they were. That was the only way we knew who they were. There have been a long list of industry people that have been here to share with us.

Hey Marv2 I enjoy your insights. It is true that a long list of industry insiders have shared here and they always identified themselves. Although your opinions are not always popular you are always on point, and a straight no chaser guy. I see George Solomon continues to share here intermittently. In fact, this forum used to be a source of reference for research on Motown.

[RanRan79]

Someone is mad their plan didn't work. LOL I hope it didn't take you very long to come up with this ruse in the hopes of getting Bluebrock to reveal his legal name. It wasn't very clever. Any idiot could see what was going on here from the moment you mentioned this "uncle", "pictures" and needing Bluebrock's name, pleading with other members to prod him into passing along the information. I've taken the opportunity to alert our esteemed leader Ralph to this [[Yes, I'm the resident snitch.) and let him handle it- or not handle it- as he sees fit.

[John G. Stumpf]

The sarcasm in this post is so thick you could spread it on toast...LOL!!!

Ha Ha. I just caught the sarcasm in that post.

Even if Mary and Cindy were not singing on the records they still had to sing all of those sings live, and they had a back breaking schedule.

[John G. Stumpf]

Here Gloria Scott is performing with Mary. She is to the left of Mary:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J44MIj8_iPY

Mary looks stunning in this video, a very striking lady.

[luke]

Exactly John G and poor Flo hated to fly!! I remember noticing how pale she looked when she arrived in UK in '64.

[John G. Stumpf]

Exactly John G and poor Flo hated to fly!! I remember noticing how pale she looked when she arrived in UK in '64.
I noticed that too. She looked really pale. I wonder how much of a toll all the flying took on her. I do a lot of flying on my job and I hate it.

Cindy and Mary always sang live whenever they performed on television and in concert. I always preferred their live vocals on the records they did not sing on to the Andantes.

[thanxal]

Someone is mad their plan didn't work. LOL I hope it didn't take you very long to come up with this ruse in the hopes of getting Bluebrock to reveal his legal name. It wasn't very clever. Any idiot could see what was going on here from the moment you mentioned this "uncle", "pictures" and needing Bluebrock's name, pleading with other members to prod him into passing along the information. I've taken the opportunity to alert our esteemed leader Ralph to this [[Yes, I'm the resident snitch.) and let him handle it- or not handle it- as he sees fit.

RanRan- I think you're correct to alert Ralph. While we are allowed to express our opinions about artists, I thought it was forbidden to attack or try to out [[dox) other members. Perhaps the trash heap is at it again?