Mary Wilson and Marvin Gaye

[RanRan79]

I hesitate to start this thread because some of you don't know how to discuss with maturity, but I'm going to take a chance and hope for the best.

In the Dennis Edwards shelved album thread it is mentioned that Marvin Gaye wanted to produce something for Mary Wilson:


Marvin Gaye was to produce Mary Wilson that same year but it never materialized due to Marvin being swamped with his own recording work.

I wanted to pose the question in the thread but thought it was too off topic from Dennis. Do you all think this Marvin/Mary collab could have worked? I'm on the fence. I almost feel like anything would have been better than the abysmal debut album the label put out on Mary. But some of Marvin's late 70s work was kind of out there. Would he have tried to give Mary such a progressive sound or would he have tailored the songs to her talent? Marvin was such a classic balladeer and Mary was so great at ballads that I would like to think the match could have been heaven made. This is one of those scenarios that if done well it could have been classic, but if done wrong it could have been some of the worst music to come out of the label at the time. What do you all think?

[arr&bee]

Marvin,when inspired was second to none as a songwriter so i'm sure he would've given mary his best effort and she would've had a hit!

[mike_sku]

I'm not sure what a complete Marvin & Mary package would be like, but in my mind's ear, I can hear them duetting to "If This World Were Mine" and turning it into a smash. That's not to say that I picture the whole package as duets, but I think it would've had to have a more "classic" Marvin feel to it. Just my opinion...

[marv2]

I think he would have done a great job producing Mary. It would have been great if they could have done a duet on a song.

[Bluebrock]

I hesitate to start this thread because some of you don't know how to discuss with maturity, but I'm going to take a chance and hope for the best.

In the Dennis Edwards shelved album thread it is mentioned that Marvin Gaye wanted to produce something for Mary Wilson:



I wanted to pose the question in the thread but thought it was too off topic from Dennis. Do you all think this Marvin/Mary collab could have worked? I'm on the fence. I almost feel like anything would have been better than the abysmal debut album the label put out on Mary. But some of Marvin's late 70s work was kind of out there. Would he have tried to give Mary such a progressive sound or would he have tailored the songs to her talent? Marvin was such a classic balladeer and Mary was so great at ballads that I would like to think the match could have been heaven made. This is one of those scenarios that if done well it could have been classic, but if done wrong it could have been some of the worst music to come out of the label at the time. What do you all think?
It would have been interesting for sure and as you say anything , but anything would have been an improvement on that dreadful album that Motown forced Mary to record. I am not at all convinced that Mary had a great solo album in her at this stage. In my opinion her voice lacked that special something that a successful solo career needed. I am not trying to start ww3 here but i don't think she was ready for a solo career at this stage.
I know Mary has often mentioned this possibility but are there any archive interviews with Marvin regarding this possible pairing? It would have been interesting to have heard his views on it.

[BayouMotownMan]

There was NEVER going to be a Marvin Gaye produced lp on Mary Wilson.

First of all, Gordy wanted Mary and Pedro out of Motown. She had been a thorn in his side for too long. If Gaye had shown any interest in doing such an lp, which he didn't, BG would never have released it.

When Mary made this announcement on Mike Douglas, Gaye went straight to her home but she had already left on her last tour with Scherrie and Susaye. He made it known to Mary's secretary that he was not happy about this. Mary and Pedro did present the idea to him, he listened and was polite [[he was always a gentleman) but he never agreed to this.

In 1977 Marvin Gaye was on another peak with Got To Give It Up. After this however he sunk into an abyss of financial destruction and substance abuse and virtually disappeared from the music scene for years. Motown released a couple singles that did nothing and then an lp that Gaye said was unfinished. By 1980 he was through with Motown.

If Gaye would have done a solo lp on anybody it would have been on Ross, because she had sales power that Mary just didn't have. But he never would have done a Ross lp either.

[BayouMotownMan]

I guess I'm the only one who likes Mary's debut lp. I thought it had some good moments but her Gus Dudgeon material was really worthy of release and was great material for her

[Circa 1824]

I too find it impossible to believe that Marvin Gaye was ever considered to produce and LP for Ms. Wilsen. The idea is laughable.

I did buy Red Hot. I still am trying to get my money back.

[arr&bee]

Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa...you ain't right!!!

[RanRan79]

Marvin,when inspired was second to none as a songwriter so i'm sure he would've given mary his best effort and she would've had a hit!

True about Marvin as a songwriter. Best case scenario is him crafting something brilliant for Mary that would have jump started her solo career.

[RanRan79]

I'm not sure what a complete Marvin & Mary package would be like, but in my mind's ear, I can hear them duetting to "If This World Were Mine" and turning it into a smash. That's not to say that I picture the whole package as duets, but I think it would've had to have a more "classic" Marvin feel to it. Just my opinion...

I don't think Marvin would have ever re-recorded as a duet anything he did with Tammi with any other woman. I could definitely hear them doing justice to "If This World Were Mine", if Marvin were willing to go there. But to your larger point, I think it would have to be a necessity that a duet be placed on the album. I've always thought Mary Wilson and Mary Wells had a similar sound. Always lots of talk about his chemistry with Tammi [[which was off the charts) but the way he meshed with Mary Wells is classic in it's own right. So I think Marvin and Mary Wilson could have made a magical duet pairing for a song.

[RanRan79]

I am not at all convinced that Mary had a great solo album in her at this stage. In my opinion her voice lacked that special something that a successful solo career needed.

I have to disagree here Bluebrock. Like Diana when her time came, I think there came a time when Mary's talent outgrew a need for the group and that time was pretty much when Mary left. I do agree that her voice didn't have that certain something that set her sound apart from her contemporaries like Diana, Aretha, Gladys, Natalie, Donna, Dionne, all of whom you knew instantly the moment the ladies opened their mouths. But Mary had a way with a slow song that given the right song, the right lyrics, the right producer, and of course a serious promotional backing, she could have come out of the gate with hits. There is nothing similar in the voices of the two, but I think Mary could have easily done a lot of the stuff Phyllis Hyman was doing at the time.

[bradsupremes]

Wasn't there talk of Marvin writing/producing an album on the Supremes around 1975?

[RanRan79]

There was NEVER going to be a Marvin Gaye produced lp on Mary Wilson.

First of all, Gordy wanted Mary and Pedro out of Motown. She had been a thorn in his side for too long. If Gaye had shown any interest in doing such an lp, which he didn't, BG would never have released it.

But Motown released an album on Mary anyway, so why would it matter if Marvin was involved or not?


Mary and Pedro did present the idea to him, he listened and was polite [[he was always a gentleman) but he never agreed to this.

It seems strange to me that Pedro would have been involved with pitching this idea, considering the psyche of an abuser, and a paranoid one at that. I would think he wouldn't want Mary anywhere near Marvin, especially considering her documented crush on him, which I'm sure she found difficult to hide even in front of her husband.


If Gaye would have done a solo lp on anybody it would have been on Ross, because she had sales power that Mary just didn't have. But he never would have done a Ross lp either.

This idea [[a Ross album) presents the same questions as I have for the Mary album. I think Marvin could have struck gold [[and of course so would Diana) if he had produced an album on her in the early to mid 70s. But by the late 70s I don't know if their match would have been great. But what a huge "could've been" moment to think what would have happened if Diana had followed up the Touch Me In the Morning album with a Marvin produced lp instead of Last Time I Saw Him. Or what if Marvin had produced the Mahogany soundtrack on Diana? Missed opportunities.

[BayouMotownMan]

There was talk of Stevie Wonder producing them again in 1975, but he was smarting from the failure of Bad Weather. And again, Pedro had a control on Mary and the group that others at Motown didn't want to deal with

[RanRan79]

I guess I'm the only one who likes Mary's debut lp. I thought it had some good moments but her Gus Dudgeon material was really worthy of release and was great material for her

I don't think you're alone Bayou, but I sure as hell don't like it. Only three songs on it that I find tolerable: "Warm Summer Nights", "Pick Up the Pieces" and "You Make Me Feel So Good". And of those three, "Pick Up the Pieces" is the only one that to my taste is a bonafide good song. I love it actually and think they messed up not releasing it as a single and building the album around that sound instead.

But the Gus Dudgeon sessions was quite possibly going to be the shot to success that Mary needed. Those songs are very good and fit Mary very well. How sad that the project was never finished.

[BayouMotownMan]

Motown fired Mary halfway thru the sessions. She didn't get their approval

[BayouMotownMan]

I like the debut lp because it sounded like Mary was having fun. It was a party lp, but disco was waning and the music on this lp was already dated but for a couple of songs.

Ironically Motown gave it some initial push. It did well in LA, Frisco and NYC but nowhere else was there any interest in this lp. Motown pulled it quickly and Mary's fate was sealed.

[thanxal]

I like the debut lp because it sounded like Mary was having fun. It was a party lp, but disco was waning and the music on this lp was already dated but for a couple of songs.

Ironically Motown gave it some initial push. It did well in LA, Frisco and NYC but nowhere else was there any interest in this lp. Motown pulled it quickly and Mary's fate was sealed.

I agree with you BMM, I really like her solo album. Was it perfect, no. I do think it has gotten unjustly maligned. Was "Meet" any better of a debut album? Not in my opinion.

I work out to Mary's solo album everyday, albeit with a 4.5% pitch shift. Mary helps me keep the weight off.

[captainjames]

Nope ...I can see Marvin being asked but I can't see him agreeing to do so. There was never going to be a Marvin and Mary LP. As far as their voices blending together ...again nope....Mary's voice would have been suited better with an Eddie Kendricks type singer. Something that actually gave it chemistry and fire. Of course if Marvin did do a Mary Wilson, there is no certainty that he would have sung on it.

Now as far as Mary's solo album she did, lets just let it stay buried.

[marv2]

At 59 seconds into this clip Mary mentions that Marvin Gaye may be producing her solo album:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANxeTZCxJFQ

[BayouMotownMan]

She didn't say may be, she said will be

[marv2]

She didn't say may be, she said will be

Read the other thread for my response. He was going to produce her around recording his own album. It all became too much and then lawsuit between Mary and Motown.

[TomatoTom123]

I hesitate to start this thread because some of you don't know how to discuss with maturity, but I'm going to take a chance and hope for the best.

In the Dennis Edwards shelved album thread it is mentioned that Marvin Gaye wanted to produce something for Mary Wilson:

I wanted to pose the question in the thread but thought it was too off topic from Dennis. Do you all think this Marvin/Mary collab could have worked? I'm on the fence. I almost feel like anything would have been better than the abysmal debut album the label put out on Mary. But some of Marvin's late 70s work was kind of out there. Would he have tried to give Mary such a progressive sound or would he have tailored the songs to her talent? Marvin was such a classic balladeer and Mary was so great at ballads that I would like to think the match could have been heaven made. This is one of those scenarios that if done well it could have been classic, but if done wrong it could have been some of the worst music to come out of the label at the time. What do you all think?

Hmmmm.... interesting, RanRan. I'm not sure. I agree that Marvin and Mary doing ballads could have been great. Marvin wasn't in a great place at this time though so maybe it wouldn't / couldn't have worked.

I actually quite like Mary's solo album though! I love "You're The Light That Guides My Way" which is '80s Northern Soul if there ever were such a thing!!!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWNlSe8D7Tk&app=desktop

[daviddh]

her record deal was only a settlement from the lawsuit. Motown agreed to release it to settle.
and I didn't think the deal was done because marys husband didn seal the deal like hr didn't cancel the rest of the tour that mary had to do with Cindy and Debbie sharpe because no one would work with Pedro anymore.
personally I didn't like the album but maybe 3 songs. the rest was throwaway [[IMO)

[BayouMotownMan]

I was referring to the video you posted. I don't have to read your threads, you're usually wrong anyway. There was never going to be a Marvin Gaye lp

[Ozmo]

A Mary Wilson album produced by Marvin Gaye? In theory it was probably a good match, but as Mary herself has subsequently stated in reality it was not going to happen as Marvin's life was in such disarray he could barely keep himeslf together let alone produce another artist. The books by David Ritz, Steve Turner and Jan Gaye paint a distressing picture of Marvin's life at this time. It is quite probable that at one stage Marvin did express interest in producing Mary, only to recant on the offer. Mary has always denied that she had a crush on Marvin and after reading accounts of his paranoid state with his wife Jan, I feel that it is more likely that this was a product of his own state of mind.

The 'Mary Wilson' album that was released could have been much better, but in my opinion is not as bad as some people would have us believe. I understand that it was a rush job to fulfill part of the legal settlement between Mary and Motown. Had Motown taken a bit more care with song selection and production Mary's solo career could have started on a much brighter note.

It is interesting to compare the initial solo recordings that Diana Ross did with Bones Howe which I thought were a bad fit for Diana. Motown wisely decided to shelve those recordings and give her a more sympathetic production. A consideration that seemingly was not extended to Mary Wilson.

[marv2]

Hmmmm.... interesting, RanRan. I'm not sure. I agree that Marvin and Mary doing ballads could have been great. Marvin wasn't in a great place at this time though so maybe it wouldn't / couldn't have worked.

I actually quite like Mary's solo album though! I love "You're The Light That Guides My Way" which is '80s Northern Soul if there ever were such a thing!!!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWNlSe8D7Tk&app=desktop

Yes, that was with Billie Woodruff. Great singer.

[marv2]

her record deal was only a settlement from the lawsuit. Motown agreed to release it to settle.
and I didn't think the deal was done because marys husband didn seal the deal like hr didn't cancel the rest of the tour that mary had to do with Cindy and Debbie sharpe because no one would work with Pedro anymore.
personally I didn't like the album but maybe 3 songs. the rest was throwaway [[IMO)

What you are saying is not true or accurate.

[captainjames]

I am sure there is nothing in the vaults of any unfinished tracks by Marvin Gaye on Mary Wilson so long story short ......Never Happen.
HDH with Mary Wilson ?..........never happen.....

[Bluebrock]

I have to disagree here Bluebrock. Like Diana when her time came, I think there came a time when Mary's talent outgrew a need for the group and that time was pretty much when Mary left. I do agree that her voice didn't have that certain something that set her sound apart from her contemporaries like Diana, Aretha, Gladys, Natalie, Donna, Dionne, all of whom you knew instantly the moment the ladies opened their mouths. But Mary had a way with a slow song that given the right song, the right lyrics, the right producer, and of course a serious promotional backing, she could have come out of the gate with hits. There is nothing similar in the voices of the two, but I think Mary could have easily done a lot of the stuff Phyllis Hyman was doing at the time.
I think if Mary was ever going to have a chance of having solo success it would have come shortly after the publication of "dreamgirls". Much as i detest that tawdry excuse for a memoir it did put Mary in a good bargaining position. No record company has shown any great interest in releasing product on her before or since then. She should have pushed for a record deal at this time rather than basking in the glory of being a wealthy woman for a while.
I totally agree with you that Mary sounded good on a well produced ballad but fell way short on the uptempo stuff. I still maintain she did not have it in her to be a successful solo artist but everyone is entitled to their opinion, and it is great fun to debate, but there is no way on earth she could have successfully competed with the formidable ladies you mention,or the likes of Phyllis Hyman and Patti Austin.

[REDHOT]

It wasn't just on The Mike Douglas Show,where Mary said Marvin Gaye was gonna produced her album,it was everywhere,in all the magazine's,and papers,Mary was putting the word out, Marvin Gaye was a trouble soul,i'm sure he plan to produced Mary album,but it was too much going on,in his life,at this time,Mary would not just make this up,and go out,promoting it,in the paper's,magazine's,and on TV,again Mary Wilson would not make this up.Marvin Gaye,or Motown,would have had something to say,if it wasn't true.

[marv2]

It wasn't just on The Mike Douglas Show,where Mary said Marvin Gaye was gonna produced her album,it was everywhere,in all the magazine's,and papers,Mary was putting the word out, Marvin Gaye was a trouble soul,i'm sure he plan to produced Mary album,but it was too much going on,in his life,at this time,Mary would not just make this up,and go out,promoting it,in the paper's,magazine's,and on TV,again Mary Wilson would make this up.

I first read about it in the papers, then Right On magazine.

[luke]

The two sexiest voices at Motown would have made magic together!

[RanRan79]

I agree with you BMM, I really like her solo album. Was it perfect, no. I do think it has gotten unjustly maligned. Was "Meet" any better of a debut album? Not in my opinion.

IMO Meet the Supremes was a MUCH better debut album. Aside from "I Want a Guy", "Who's Loving You" and "He's Seventeen", which were all duds to my ears, all the other songs showcased good lead singing and beautiful background harmonies, with typical early 60s Motown beats. I would say most of the songs on the album played to the group's strengths up until that time. Most of the songs on Mary's album were beneath her talent, to my ears. She was better than what she was given.

[RanRan79]

It appears that Mary is the only one on an official public record who makes the claim that Marvin may/would produce her debut album, which suggests to me that at the very least there was some "serious" talk about it. [[Mary wasn't an idiot. She had been in the game long enough to know when it might be safe to mention some of the possible things going on behind the scenes and I don't think she would get on national TV and blurt out something that only she and Pedro had conjured up.) At the same time, even if there was talk of it, there's a good chance that this collaboration never had a chance for all the reasons folks have mentioned above [[Marvin's issues, Mary's issues, Motown's issues, etc).

So rather than argue about whether this was real or not, how about we deal in the hypothetical: what if it was real? Good fit or no fit???

[marv2]

The two sexiest voices at Motown would have made magic together!

They would have tore it up!

[jim aka jtigre99]

I read in the Let Youself GO Final Sessions CD that Cindy stated that Marvin Gaye was going to produce the Mary, Scherrie, Cindy grouping while they were going through legal issues and once they were done he was too busy. I don't think that album would have been a good match for the Supremes at that time. I didn't care for Mary's solo debut LP as much as I had hoped. She sang uptempo songs on the 1975 Supremes LP and sounded fine, just didn't seem to have the punch needed even though I liked I love a warm summer night, Midnight Dancer, Light that guides My Way. By 1979, I don't think Marvin was in the right place artistically and emotionally for the project. The Gus Dudgeon tracks were an indication of Wilson's capabilities. All of these years later, You Dance My heart Around the Stars was in preliminary consideration for a Grammy nomination, even if it didn't garner one. I think that shows she was on the track to becoming the solo artist she was trying to become, that was certainly her niche and would have carved out a credible career for her in that vein. Since, Wilson was working on a solo sound she would not have had the restrictions that a Gaye produced Supremes LP may have had and the combination may have worked but the timing for where Gaye was at the time and what Wilson was trying to accomplish may not have reached the artistic fruition that we are contemplating.

[Bluebrock]

IMO Meet the Supremes was a MUCH better debut album. Aside from "I Want a Guy", "Who's Loving You" and "He's Seventeen", which were all duds to my ears, all the other songs showcased good lead singing and beautiful background harmonies, with typical early 60s Motown beats. I would say most of the songs on the album played to the group's strengths up until that time. Most of the songs on Mary's album were beneath her talent, to my ears. She was better than what she was given.
Motown wanted rid of Mary. There is no way they would have seriously sanctioned Marvin to produce an album on Mary. Why would they give this white elephant to one of it's biggest stars to produce? They did not want to waste any more money on this project than they needed to.They wanted the album to flop so they gave her a set of generally disposable songs and the album was a critical and commercial failure. Job done.

[luke]

Motown probably would have said to Marvin it was just fine. They did not want to ruffle his feathers!

[RanRan79]

The Gus Dudgeon tracks were an indication of Wilson's capabilities. All of these years later, You Dance My heart Around the Stars was in preliminary consideration for a Grammy nomination, even if it didn't garner one. I think that shows she was on the track to becoming the solo artist she was trying to become, that was certainly her niche and would have carved out a credible career for her in that vein.

I absolutely agree here. I don't feel like pulling out my copy of Supreme Faith to re-familiarize myself with the particulars, but what the hell was Mary doing between being dropped from Motown and releasing Dreamgirl? I know she talked about meeting with the head of Casablanca[[?) and he was interested and then he dropped dead, but was that all? Seems she should have been beating doors down. I think her Atlantic demos were after Dreamgirl, right? I actually think a couple of those could have made some noise. What happened with Atlantic?

[RanRan79]

Motown wanted rid of Mary. There is no way they would have seriously sanctioned Marvin to produce an album on Mary. Why would they give this white elephant to one of it's biggest stars to produce? They did not want to waste any more money on this project than they needed to.They wanted the album to flop so they gave her a set of generally disposable songs and the album was a critical and commercial failure. Job done.

Sadly this probably is the case.

[marv2]

Motown wanted rid of Mary. There is no way they would have seriously sanctioned Marvin to produce an album on Mary. Why would they give this white elephant to one of it's biggest stars to produce? They did not want to waste any more money on this project than they needed to.They wanted the album to flop so they gave her a set of generally disposable songs and the album was a critical and commercial failure. Job done.

You don't know that. That's just your opinion. Mary a "White Elephant"? What did you call Diane when Motown dropped her?

[jobeterob]

But like Bayou Man,his connections are much stronger than yours and you're jealous

Mary's voice on the songs she sang lead on were a nice offset from Jean and Diana but the voice is pedestrian and not commercial-so she had no hits

[Bluebrock]

You don't know that. That's just your opinion. Mary a "White Elephant"? What did you call Diane when Motown dropped her?
Sorry for raining on your parade but Mary voice lacked that special quality to become a solo success. No record company had sufficient confidence to take a chance on her.

[honest man]

It wasn't just on The Mike Douglas Show,where Mary said Marvin Gaye was gonna produced her album,it was everywhere,in all the magazine's,and papers,Mary was putting the word out, Marvin Gaye was a trouble soul,i'm sure he plan to produced Mary album,but it was too much going on,in his life,at this time,Mary would not just make this up,and go out,promoting it,in the paper's,magazine's,and on TV,again Mary Wilson would not make this up.Marvin Gaye,or Motown,would have had something to say,if it wasn't true.Yes she would have said it,she is a LIAR,And known for it read her 2 trash rag books,then again she may have been on her Cocaine trips when she thought this happened,Marvin had recorded the excellent Diana and Marvin LP a few years before could not improve on perfection.,i'm sure he would not go back in the studio with a former background singer after he had duetted with the Queen of Motown,just a thought,cheers.

[honest man]

You don't know that. That's just your opinion. Mary a "White Elephant"? What did you call Diane when Motown dropped her?The Queen of Motown dropped them remember and walked away with Millions dollar deal.why do you lie so much i can understand why you Fantasise about Mary Wilson and try and change history. you are BOTH equal LIARS,CHEERS

[RanRan79]

Since I started the thread, is there an option for me to delete it, or do I contact Ralph and ask him to delete it? Folks just couldn't keep it about the music.

[arr&bee]

I think that the only artist that actually got marvin's attention was[the originals]after tammi's death i don't think he wanted to ever due a duet..[including the one he had to due with diana]now as for producing mary,he may have planned to do it but marvin being marvin his mind was all over the place,otis once said that marvin asked to see the temps and kept them waiting for two hours before they got pissed and left,just saying marvin had some plans that he didn't see through.

[reese]

It could have been interesting had Marvin produced Mary. During the same period, his biographer David Ritz wrote that Marvin was slated to produce Dionne Warwick. Dionne and Marvin met to discuss material and she was telling him which songs she liked and which ones she didn't. Marvin suddenly excused himself and never returned, saying Dionne was "too bossy."

[kenneth]

I think when Diana and Marvin came out, the golden era of the duets had really passed, at least until Ashford and Simpson [[ironically) seemed to bring it back to the charts a few years later. To me, Diana and Marvin didn't really blend. They both have great voices but they just don't seem to be singing together somehow.

I actually think Marvin and Mary Wilson would have been more interesting. Her voice could sound at times like Mary Wells, with a similar breathy quality, and I think they might have complemented each other in the same way that Marvin and Mary Wells did. Too bad we'll never know.

[marv2]

I think when Diana and Marvin came out, the golden era of the duets had really passed, at least until Ashford and Simpson [[ironically) seemed to bring it back to the charts a few years later. To me, Diana and Marvin didn't really blend. They both have great voices but they just don't seem to be singing together somehow.

I actually think Marvin and Mary Wilson would have been more interesting. Her voice could sound at times like Mary Wells, with a similar breathy quality, and I think they might have complemented each other in the same way that Marvin and Mary Wells did. Too bad we'll never know.

i heard that marvin and diane recorded separately.

[honest man]

Yes i read that too,what a fantastic duet album it was-is,just imagine if they had recorded it together in studio the result would still have been fantastic,would love their solo versions of duets project to be released someday,cheers.

[ralpht]

RanRan,
I just read the entire thread. Yeah, things seem to be drifting a bit. I'm going to let things stand for a bit and see if things can get on track.

[Roberta75]

Yes i read that too,what a fantastic duet album it was-is,just imagine if they had recorded it together in studio the result would still have been fantastic,would love their solo versions of duets project to be released someday,cheers.

I was told that Mr Gaye was smoking during the recording sessiion and Miss Ross was pregnant at that time so Mr Gordy suggested they record seperatley but a few tracks were recorded together. Perhaps Rick B can conform or add to this.

Fondly,

Roberta

[ralpht]

Only one track was recorded together, Roberta. Marvin was smoking weed and Diana objected. Since Marvin declared that he couldn't sing without it, the album was completed by Diana and Marvin coming to the studio at separate times.

[Roberta75]

Only one track was recorded together, Roberta. Marvin was smoking weed and Diana objected. Since Marvin declared that he couldn't sing without it, the album was completed by Diana and Marvin coming to the studio at separate times.

Thank you dear Ralph. I can see Miss Ross not wanting smoke around her when shes pregnant

[soulwally]

How do I report Honest Man to the moderators? He/she is a most objectionable poster, as well as a disgrace to his English language teacher.

[Roberta75]

How do I report Honest Man to the moderators? He/she is a most objectionable poster, as well as a disgrace to his English language teacher.

IMHO I dont think Ralph cares or needst to be bothered with someones language or English or writing or spelling skills.

[marv2]

How do I report Honest Man to the moderators? He/she is a most objectionable poster, as well as a disgrace to his English language teacher.

soulwally, just send ralph a private message. go to the top and click notifications.

[vgalindo]

How do I report Honest Man to the moderators? He/she is a most objectionable poster, as well as a disgrace to his English language teacher.
I haven't seen Honest man say anything bad. Only his dislike of Mary Wilsons voice. He has the right to post his opinion. Just like the others who constantly post their negative opinions on Diana Ross. Nothing is ever done to them because they say that's their opinion. You can't have it both ways!!

[captainjames]

HAHA
If ever there was a description for a male DIVA, Marvin's name would be included as well.



It could have been interesting had Marvin produced Mary. During the same period, his biographer David Ritz wrote that Marvin was slated to produce Dionne Warwick. Dionne and Marvin met to discuss material and she was telling him which songs she liked and which ones she didn't. Marvin suddenly excused himself and never returned, saying Dionne was "too bossy."

[blackguy69]

I haven't seen Honest man say anything bad. Only his dislike of Mary Wilsons voice. He has the right to post his opinion. Just like the others who constantly post their negative opinions on Diana Ross. Nothing is ever done to them because they say that's their opinion. You can't have it both ways!!

I've seen his post and it isn't just her voice he doesn't like. I think in a nutshell I think what soulwally is pointing out that there are those who have no problem calling out Marv for his remarks about Diana but are stone quiet when he does the same about Mary

[vgalindo]

I've seen his post and it isn't just her voice he doesn't like. I think in a nutshell I think what soulwally is pointing out that there are those who have no problem calling out Marv for his remarks about Diana but are stone quiet when he does the same about Mary
I am just saying why does Soulwally want to contact Ralph? Marv has been bashing Diana forever and Ralph hasn't stoped him. So why should he stop Honest man from bashing Mary? It seems Ralph gets upset when members bash other members but he let's people speak their mind about how they feel about the different artists. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[detmotownguy]

soulwally, just send ralph a private message. go to the top and click notifications.
Marv check your email please.

[blackguy69]

Personally I wouldn't stop either of them. I dont like their comments but that doesn't stop me from listening to their music.

[Jaap]

So funny that people continue to make a big deal out of the fact that most of the Diana & Marvin duets were recorded separately, as that was and is still common practice when recording duets [[similarly to the backing vocals being recorded separately). One of the most beautiful duets ever -- Marvin and Tammi's "Ain't No Mountain High Enough" -- was made by adding Marvin's vocals to Tammi's earlier recorded vocals. Patti LaBelle and Michael McDonald didn't even meet in person AFTER their duet "On My Own" was a hit--not only did they record the song separately, also the music video was taped separately [[though, in this case, it does fit the song's theme). I love [[most) of the Diana & Marvin album. Just listen to "Just Say, Just Say" -- that's a intimate duet in which the vocals blend beautifully, regardless of how they were recorded.

[honest man]

soulwally, just send ralph a private message. go to the top and click notifications.i Must remember that the next time you tELL a poster to DROP DEAD last week, better still Ralph can see it himself from SUPREME SHOW PHOTO THREAD, Double standards sums you up.

[honest man]

I am just saying why does Soulwally want to contact Ralph? Marv has been bashing Diana forever and Ralph hasn't stoped him. So why should he stop Honest man from bashing Mary? It seems Ralph gets upset when members bash other members but he let's people speak their mind about how they feel about the different artists. Correct me if I'm wrong.Believe it or not i love Mary Wilson IT is just that this Marv bloke keeps trying to change Motown history by slagging her group leader ,and she is no better,i just don't like her for THE 2 trash rags she produced ,but as a Supreme i love her,there you go.

[honest man]

How do I report Honest Man to the moderators? He/she is a most objectionable poster, as well as a disgrace to his English language teacher. BOVVERED =[Bothered]

[Bluebrock]

Believe it or not i love Mary Wilson IT is just that this Marv bloke keeps trying to change Motown history by slagging her group leader ,and she is no better,i just don't like her for THE 2 trash rags she produced ,but as a Supreme i love her,there you go.
I loved Mary as a Supreme but now i accuse her of double standards. She wrote that awful memoir and made herself a lot of money in the process, but now she wants to "make it right with Diane". Diana quite rightly wants nothing to do with this woman and refuses all advances.
This situation is unlikely to change and i think we should all move on.

[blackguy69]

I think everyone needs to let it go and move on. Bluerock I understand what you mean, but put it in this light, the Diana Ross you worked with and respect more than likely is not the same person Mary felt with years earlier. Just a thought

[thanxal]

I am just saying why does Soulwally want to contact Ralph? Marv has been bashing Diana forever and Ralph hasn't stoped him. So why should he stop Honest man from bashing Mary? It seems Ralph gets upset when members bash other members but he let's people speak their mind about how they feel about the different artists. Correct me if I'm wrong.
From my short time here what you've written seems correct. I personally don't know how Ralph puts up with all the pettiness.

Why people need to childishly start a fight on every thread has more to do with their own personality shortcomings and mental instabilities. I've long suspected certain people are posting under 3-5 other IDs and get some mentally disturbed kick out of stirring up trouble. We know there is a ghost site that has stolen our IDs and posts. I showed that conclusively in a recent thread. The same crowd comes [[back) over here when things get boring there.

The "block" function of this forum is one of its more useful tools.

[ralpht]

vgalindo. I really don't see Marv bashing Diana, or anyone for that matter. And yes it is true that artists are open for critical comments. That goes with the territory, and as long as it is not fiction, I let it stand. However, I don't stand for one member attacking another member. And for the billionth time its only music...get a grip.

[kenneth]

So funny that people continue to make a big deal out of the fact that most of the Diana & Marvin duets were recorded separately, as that was and is still common practice when recording duets [[similarly to the backing vocals being recorded separately). One of the most beautiful duets ever -- Marvin and Tammi's "Ain't No Mountain High Enough" -- was made by adding Marvin's vocals to Tammi's earlier recorded vocals. Patti LaBelle and Michael McDonald didn't even meet in person AFTER their duet "On My Own" was a hit--not only did they record the song separately, also the music video was taped separately [[though, in this case, it does fit the song's theme). I love [[most) of the Diana & Marvin album. Just listen to "Just Say, Just Say" -- that's a intimate duet in which the vocals blend beautifully, regardless of how they were recorded.


All very good points. I think for me there are two things at play. One is that when I know that the vocals were recorded separately, it is much harder for the singers to sound like they've got any synergy or a true collaborative artistic process going on as I am a more critical listener. The second is that if I assume they were together, or have no idea going in, they can still sound like they don't blend well somehow.

As an example of the first problem, I have a hard time listening to the Sinatra duet albums because I know they were all recorded individually. But even if I didn't, somehow to me they come off as too sterile, not organic [[not musical terms, I know).

As an example of the second, the Tony Bennett duets and his album with Lady Gaga to me seem full of great touches that sound like they are spontaneous. So I'd be surprised if they weren't recorded simultaneously, though I really don't know. On the other hand, I hated the old Summer/Streisand "Enough is Enough." Again, I have no idea if they recorded together but their voices don't blend at all and they sound like they're fighting with each other somehow.

And to touch on one of your points, what Marvin and Tammi had was pure magic, however it was created! I do like some of his songs with Diana as well. But clearly, what male singer ever had so much success with so many different partners [[Wells, Terrell, Weston, Ross, and even the ones we didn't know about back then such as Simpson, Page [[or was it Heard? I always forget). I don't think Gaye gets nearly as much credit as he should for how adaptable and flexible he was to his singing partners.

I'm sure all these things are different for each listener.

[thanxal]

vgalindo. I really don't see Marv bashing Diana, or anyone for that matter. And yes it is true that artists are open for critical comments. That goes with the territory, and as long as it is not fiction, I let it stand. However, I don't stand for one member attacking another member. And for the billionth time its only music...get a grip.
Ralph, respectfully...
Marv2 continuously bashes Diana. Its on thread after thread after thread.

If he doesn't like her, that's perfectly fine. He can even express that. But on thread after thread, continuously? What's the point?

[ralpht]

It is his opinion Al.

[thanxal]

It is his opinion Al.
Fair enough Ralph. But can you see where doing this on just about every thread causes constant issues?

A little restraint [[on all sides) would go along way to making these threads about the music, which is why I come here.

[[In fairness, I think the recent round of Mary bashing is just as objectionable. My mother taught me that if I don't have something nice to say, I should keep my mouth shut).

[Bluebrock]

All very good points. I think for me there are two things at play. One is that when I know that the vocals were recorded separately, it is much harder for the singers to sound like they've got any synergy or a true collaborative artistic process going on as I am a more critical listener. The second is that if I assume they were together, or have no idea going in, they can still sound like they don't blend well somehow.

As an example of the first problem, I have a hard time listening to the Sinatra duet albums because I know they were all recorded individually. But even if I didn't, somehow to me they come off as too sterile, not organic [[not musical terms, I know).

As an example of the second, the Tony Bennett duets and his album with Lady Gaga to me seem full of great touches that sound like they are spontaneous. So I'd be surprised if they weren't recorded simultaneously, though I really don't know. On the other hand, I hated the old Summer/Streisand "Enough is Enough." Again, I have no idea if they recorded together but their voices don't blend at all and they sound like they're fighting with each other somehow.

And to touch on one of your points, what Marvin and Tammi had was pure magic, however it was created! I do like some of his songs with Diana as well. But clearly, what male singer ever had so much success with so many different partners [[Wells, Terrell, Weston, Ross, and even the ones we didn't know about back then such as Simpson, Page [[or was it Heard? I always forget). I don't think Gaye gets nearly as much credit as he should for how adaptable and flexible he was to his singing partners.

I'm sure all these things are different for each listener.
The Lady Ga ga/Tony Bennett duets were recorded together just as Bennett's duet with Amy Winehouse was. Streisand and Summer recorded their duet separately.i agree that the Ga Ga/ Bennett album was pretty damn fine Kenneth.

[honest man]

Fair enough Ralph. But can you see where doing this on just about every thread causes constant issues?

A little restraint [[on all sides) would go along way to making these threads about the music, which is why I come here.

[[In fairness, I think the recent round of Mary bashing is just as objectionable. My mother taught me that if I don't have something nice to say, I should keep my mouth shut).Iwas brought up different to you,i was told id someone hits you ,hit them back harder,and also to fight fire with fire,being the youngest of 8 siblings 4 brothers 3 sisters,i reckon i have turned out smart enough to look after myself,thank you.cheers,

[blackguy69]

May I ask where are you from QUOTE=honest man;391091]Iwas brought up different to you,i was told id someone hits you ,hit them back harder,and also to fight fire with fire,being the youngest of 8 siblings 4 brothers 3 sisters,i reckon i have turned out smart enough to look after myself,thank you.cheers,[/QUOTE]

[ralpht]

Al, you and I are in complete agreement. There should be absolutely no problems on a music forum. But then there is that Diana Ross/Supremes mystique that seems to turn reasonable adults into bickering teenagers. Something I will never understand. So I let things go until it starts to piss me off and I delete the thread. Terrific!

[smallworld]

what male singer ever had so much success with so many different partners

Fred Astaire?

[smallworld]

Streisand and Summer recorded their duet separately.

Not according to this [[http://barbra-archives.com/record/albums/wet.html). Apparently Summer fell off her stool while holding a note, prompting Streisand to ask "Are you okay?".

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[thanxal]

Al, you and I are in complete agreement. There should be absolutely no problems on a music forum. But then there is that Diana Ross/Supremes mystique that seems to turn reasonable adults into bickering teenagers. Something I will never understand. So I let things go until it starts to piss me off and I delete the thread. Terrific!
Ralph, I lol'ed at this. It's like MAGIC. Just mention Diana Ross/the Supremes and its like a fountain of youth where everyone is 16 again. It reminds me of one of those corny 70s sitcoms... what was it?... "Marsha, Marsha, Marsha". Except here its "Diane, Diane, Diane"...Keep up the good work, Ralph.

[vgalindo]

Fair enough Ralph. But can you see where doing this on just about every thread causes constant issues?

A little restraint [[on all sides) would go along way to making these threads about the music, which is why I come here.

[[In fairness, I think the recent round of Mary bashing is just as objectionable. My mother taught me that if I don't have something nice to say, I should keep my mouth shut).
Yes I agree. I come here for the music and get tired of the bashing. Yes using a little restraint is a very good idea. I use it all the time. Even though I may have a negative opinion on a certain artist. I usually don't post it because I don't want others who like them to get riled up!

[daviddh]

i try to ignore some but some are just funny. but hey maybe some find me funny or whatever.
I do not know either of these ladies/ both are due their props for the work.
but I think some of us can offer opinions or make comments without it being personal while other jump in as if they were there when things happened like a fly on the wall.
Marys solo album sucked , but really so did a few of dianas albums such as Last time I saw Him and I Love You. both contained some ok songs while the rest I scratch my head and say What Were They thinking.
Motown wanted rid of Mary. she sued Motown. the record deal was part of the settlement. they released it and then released her shortly thereafter. they were glad to be rid of her.
she has also made comments about other supremes members while they have never dished on her.
I had to laugh somewhat when she told an interviewer that the 70s supremes were another group. they weren't the supremes. funny my copy of Floy Joy states The Supremes!
when the supremes were inducted in to the rock and roll of fame , cindy and scherrie were there. she never mentioned them at all or called them on stage but later wrote I was the only supremes there that night! what a slap after these ladies helped her.
when Martha Reeves was inducted ...she brought up all her Vandellas on stage. now that's class.
now I have seen Mary perform. great stage presence. lovely in person. and has grown as a singer and performer.my props. but I don't always agree on what she says out of her mouth,
perhaps a duet with her a Marvin would have been nice. come to think of it. I would prefer her and Marvin performing Touch . that would of been nice.
but I did read in Marys book about the Marvin deal. I 'THINK' Mary wrote that her former husband may have not sealed the deal. I will look it up because now I am interested in finding out the details.
but aren't we all here for the music?

[marv2]

i try to ignore some but some are just funny. but hey maybe some find me funny or whatever.
I do not know either of these ladies/ both are due their props for the work.
but I think some of us can offer opinions or make comments without it being personal while other jump in as if they were there when things happened like a fly on the wall.
Marys solo album sucked , but really so did a few of dianas albums such as Last time I saw Him and I Love You. both contained some ok songs while the rest I scratch my head and say What Were They thinking.
Motown wanted rid of Mary. she sued Motown. the record deal was part of the settlement. they released it and then released her shortly thereafter. they were glad to be rid of her.
she has also made comments about other supremes members while they have never dished on her.
I had to laugh somewhat when she told an interviewer that the 70s supremes were another group. they weren't the supremes. funny my copy of Floy Joy states The Supremes!
when the supremes were inducted in to the rock and roll of fame , cindy and scherrie were there. she never mentioned them at all or called them on stage but later wrote I was the only supremes there that night! what a slap after these ladies helped her.
when Martha Reeves was inducted ...she brought up all her Vandellas on stage. now that's class.
now I have seen Mary perform. great stage presence. lovely in person. and has grown as a singer and performer.my props. but I don't always agree on what she says out of her mouth,
perhaps a duet with her a Marvin would have been nice. come to think of it. I would prefer her and Marvin performing Touch . that would of been nice.
but I did read in Marys book about the Marvin deal. I 'THINK' Mary wrote that her former husband may have not sealed the deal. I will look it up because now I am interested in finding out the details.
but aren't we all here for the music?


Motown wanted to be rid of Diane which is why as soon as Berry Gordy was no longer in the picture they stopped promoting her and her music. They eventually dropped her from the label.

[bradsupremes]

when the supremes were inducted in to the rock and roll of fame , cindy and scherrie were there. she never mentioned them at all or called them on stage but later wrote I was the only supremes there that night! what a slap after these ladies helped her.
when Martha Reeves was inducted ...she brought up all her Vandellas on stage. now that's class.

This is the first time I've ever heard both Cindy AND Scherrie were there. Other than hearsay, I don't believe they were there. There are no photos of either lady being present. If someone could produce evidence they were, I'd like to see it.

I'd like to point out the blame put on Mary Wilson regarding excluding the other Supremes from induction is utter ridiculous. I worked at the Rock Hall. I've spoken with individuals on the nominating and voting committees. It is the decision of the Rock Hall on who gets inducted in groups, not the members of the groups themselves. The Rock Hall saw the original three Supremes as having the most success and influence and felt they were the ones who should be inducted. Now, I think Cindy should have been inducted as well as Jean too, but you can't change the past. Look at other groups. There have been many glaring omissions of people not inducted with their groups. Has there been word Otis Williams demanded Richard Street not be inducted? Did the Four Seasons demand Joe Long not be inducted with them? Let's end it here and now. Mary had no power or say over which Supreme got inducted into the Rock Hall.

[marv2]

This is the first time I've ever heard both Cindy AND Scherrie were there. Other than hearsay, I don't believe they were there. There are no photos of either lady being present. If someone could produce evidence they were, I'd like to see it.

I'd like to point out the blame put on Mary Wilson regarding excluding the other Supremes from induction is utter ridiculous. I worked at the Rock Hall. I've spoken with individuals on the nominating and voting committees. It is the decision of the Rock Hall on who gets inducted in groups, not the members of the groups themselves. The Rock Hall saw the original three Supremes as having the most success and influence and felt they were the ones who should be inducted. Now, I think Cindy should have been inducted as well as Jean too, but you can't change the past. Look at other groups. There have been many glaring omissions of people not inducted with their groups. Has there been word Otis Williams demanded Richard Street not be inducted? Did the Four Seasons demand Joe Long not be inducted with them? Let's end it here and now. Mary had no power or say over which Supreme got inducted into the Rock Hall.

They [[Cindy Birdsong and Scherrie Payne) were not there at the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame Induction Ceremony in 1988. He made that up. Why, I am not sure, but I believe to try to make Mary Wilson look bad. She also had no control over what group members would be inducted. The Hall [[meaning the nominating and voting committees) decides who gets in. This was always a lie that's been spread by certain individuals.

[luke]

Didnt it change over the years e.g. When Martha insisted All the Vandellas get inducted?

[marv2]

Didnt it change over the years e.g. When Martha insisted All the Vandellas get inducted?

I don't know if it really changed. I don't know if the Hall knew which set of Vandellas were more prominent than the next set. For instance, Annette left in early 1964 so she is on some of their early hits. Betty Kelly joined in '64 and was there when hits like "Dancing in the Streets" were out. When "Jimmy Mack" became a big hit in 1967, Betty was in the group, but it is my understanding that it was recorded with Annette Sterling still in the group. I don't know if any of this makes sense LOL! Just speculation on my part with the Vandellas.

[bradsupremes]

Didnt it change over the years e.g. When Martha insisted All the Vandellas get inducted?

Martha could have insisted all the Vandellas be inducted, but again it's the decision of the Rock Hall.

Here's some notable exclusions from Rock Hall inductions:
Pete Best - The Beatles
Bruce Johnston - The Beach Boys
Bob Welch - Fleetwood Mac
Joe Long - The Four Seasons
Damon Harris & Richard Street - The Temptations
John Dalton & John Gosling - The Kinks
Several members of the Allman Brothers Band & the Grateful Dead
...this could go on.

Here's a full list of people excluded from induction with their bands/groups. The funny thing is that Sandra Tilley is listed as being excluded from induction. Do we know for sure she was inducted? The Rock Hall website doesn't have her listed as being inducted.
http://www.futurerocklegends.com/Snubbed_Members.php

[marv2]

Martha could have insisted all the Vandellas be inducted, but again it's the decision of the Rock Hall.

Here's some notable exclusions from Rock Hall inductions:
Pete Best - The Beatles
Bruce Johnston - The Beach Boys
Bob Welch - Fleetwood Mac
Joe Long - The Four Seasons
Damon Harris & Richard Street - The Temptations
John Dalton & John Gosling - The Kinks
Several members of the Allman Brothers Band & the Grateful Dead
...this could go on.

Here's a full list of people excluded from induction with their bands/groups. The funny thing is that Sandra Tilley is listed as being excluded from induction. Do we know for sure she was inducted? The Rock Hall website doesn't have her listed as being inducted.
http://www.futurerocklegends.com/Snubbed_Members.php

Thanks Brad for that information. I hope all is going well.

[marv2]

How great is this picture?

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[luke]

Wow Florence looks just lovely and Mary looks like Liz Taylor in Cleopatra!

[marv2]

Wow Florence looks just lovely and Mary looks like Liz Taylor in Cleopatra!

They were truly beautiful women....!

[jobeterob]

We all have our preferences

In the end, there are some facts about movies awards hits chart positions background singers being replaced money

A very few did very well- Diana Berry smokey Lionel

Many people didn't

Jealousy by them and on their behalf is natural and hard to overcome - Cindy did it and not many others

It doesn't seem to bother Ralph a lot that a few made a lot. That's to be admired

[rod_rick]

I'm thinking that Cindy and Scherrie were at the Hollywood Walk of fame when theSupremes received their star, not the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, but I could be mistaken.

[Bluebrock]

Not according to this [[http://barbra-archives.com/record/albums/wet.html). Apparently Summer fell off her stool while holding a note, prompting Streisand to ask "Are you okay?".

13129
I think that was just a publicity photo. I recall reading that Barbra approached Donna to record the duet, but they were in different places at the time of recording, but they did meet up a couple of times afterwards for publicity photos but rarely kept in touch after that. i shall try to dig out more information smallworld. I have heard this story myself but i was told Barbra said this to Donna later when they played it back. Thanks for the info.

[marv2]

I'm thinking that Cindy and Scherrie were at the Hollywood Walk of fame when theSupremes received their star, not the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, but I could be mistaken.

Just like Diana Ross, they were not there at the Supremes Walk of Fame Star ceremony.

[marv2]

We all have our preferences

In the end, there are some facts about movies awards hits chart positions background singers being replaced money

A very few did very well- Diana Berry smokey Lionel

Many people didn't

Jealousy by them and on their behalf is natural and hard to overcome - Cindy did it and not many others

It doesn't seem to bother Ralph a lot that a few made a lot. That's to be admired

Why should any of that nonsense you just wrote bother Ralph? Nothing you just said made sense or relates to the discussion in this thread. Help?

[smallworld]

i shall try to dig out more information smallworld.

I included a link at the bolded "this [[http://barbra-archives.com/record/albums/wet.html)" in my original message. I'm not an authority on either artist but I remember hearing the falling off the stool story, and it's mentioned in the link as happening while both Streisand and Summer were in the studio recording the duet.

The link also mentions that Summer initially recorded Barbra's part to play to Streisand so she could hear the track's hit potential. That may have been played at the lunch they had with Paul Jabara, who seems to have been the driving force behind the collab, before Streisand agreed to record the track.

[kenneth]

They were truly beautiful women....!

Wow, at first I thought Mary was Rosalind Ashford in that photo. Mary's looks are kind of chameleon-like; they change greatly based on her makeup and the way she styles herself. But yes, gorgeous as always.

[Bluebrock]

I included a link at the bolded "this [[http://barbra-archives.com/record/albums/wet.html)" in my original message. I'm not an authority on either artist but I remember hearing the falling off the stool story, and it's mentioned in the link as happening while both Streisand and Summer were in the studio recording the duet.

The link also mentions that Summer initially recorded Barbra's part to play to Streisand so she could hear the track's hit potential. That may have been played at the lunch they had with Paul Jabara, who seems to have been the driving force behind the collab, before Streisand agreed to record the track.
You may well be right smallworld. I am relying on my memory! Your source may be more accurate than mine. I cannot honestly recall who it was who passed over the information. I wish i had asked Donna when i worked with her back in 2000. I have never met Streisand.

[marv2]

Marvin, Mary and Lionel Richie looking on. What a great memory!

13340

[Circa 1824]

Marvin and Mary ?? hahahhahahhahahahaha