The Last Days Of Motown

[TomatoTom123]

I have been trying to piece together the last days of Motown as an independent company and I have some questions!

So, Berry Gordy sold Motown to MCA in June of 1988, right? But what was the last album [[and single) released before the sale? What happened at the transition, to its artists and staff?

And do you consider this the end of "Motown" as a label? Or did it carry on being "Motown" for you even after Berry stepped down as president?

For some reason I find this part of Motown history both fascinating and sad and I would really appreciate your thoughts and responses on the matter! :)

[PeaceNHarmony]

Hi Tom - some mutual historians here will have the concrete facts you are looking for; I'll offer my fan perspective. 'Motown' as we knew it pretty much concluded for me with the release of Stevie's 'A Time To Love' in 2005. India.Arie, Brian McKnight, Erika B and some others had top-quality albums issued on Motown which was great but to me they were not 'Motown' artists, rather individual talents signed to Motown. Which is just fine. But my recognition of the Motown Era probably ended on a high note with Diana's 'Every Day ...' LP. That's just my reflection.

[TomatoTom123]

Hi Tom - some mutual historians here will have the concrete facts you are looking for; I'll offer my fan perspective. 'Motown' as we knew it pretty much concluded for me with the release of Stevie's 'A Time To Love' in 2005. India.Arie, Brian McKnight, Erika B and some others had top-quality albums issued on Motown which was great but to me they were not 'Motown' artists, rather individual talents signed to Motown. Which is just fine. But my recognition of the Motown Era probably ended on a high note with Diana's 'Every Day ...' LP. That's just my reflection.

Hi PNH, thanks for your thoughts! Interesting. I really can't decide where Motown ends; technically it ceased being an independent company in 1988 and anything after that shouldn't be considered Motown I guess. But Lionel Richie's "My Destiny" and Shanice's "I Love Your Smile" are just pure Motown to me. In fact "My Destiny" is more Motown than "Papa Was A Rollin' Stone" IMO. And I couldn't think of Boyz II Men as anything but Motown artists.

I'm not at very familiar with the singers you mention, however... I'll have to check them out! :)

For me I guess the 'classic Motown era' ended in the early 1970s. The 'Motown sound' has nevertheless made many reappearances since then!

[marv2]

I have been trying to piece together the last days of Motown as an independent company and I have some questions!

So, Berry Gordy sold Motown to MCA in June of 1988, right? But what was the last album [[and single) released before the sale? What happened at the transition, to its artists and staff?

And do you consider this the end of "Motown" as a label? Or did it carry on being "Motown" for you even after Berry stepped down as president?

For some reason I find this part of Motown history both fascinating and sad and I would really appreciate your thoughts and responses on the matter! :)

Motown continued on without Berry Gordy. First with Jheryl Busby and others later on.

[marv2]

"Classic Motown" ended in 1972-73 when Gordy moved the company out of Detroit.

[marv2]

Hi Tom - some mutual historians here will have the concrete facts you are looking for; I'll offer my fan perspective. 'Motown' as we knew it pretty much concluded for me with the release of Stevie's 'A Time To Love' in 2005. India.Arie, Brian McKnight, Erika B and some others had top-quality albums issued on Motown which was great but to me they were not 'Motown' artists, rather individual talents signed to Motown. Which is just fine. But my recognition of the Motown Era probably ended on a high note with Diana's 'Every Day ...' LP. That's just my reflection.

I would hardly consider an album that no one heard or bought as ending on a high note.

[marv2]

The Temptations "Phoenix Rising" may be a better choice. At least it spawned the hit "Stay".

[RanRan79]

Hey Tom, as long as artists continue to be signed to Motown, Motown is still Motown. It hasn't ceased being anything, IMO. Lots of great music and artists came out of the label after Gordy sold it. However, to piggyback on PeaceNHarmony's comment about individual talents being signed, that's the way I view all the artists signed to Motown after the Jackson 5. Aside from the classic sound, the one other thing that set Motown apart from other labels was the grooming of acts and the attention given, and I don't think anyone after the J5 was given the Artist Development treatment [[as we know it). So while some may look at the Commodores or Tata Vega as more Motown than Boyz II Men or India Arie, in my book they're the same kind of Motown artists, individual talents but not groomed by Gordy and company in the way of the Supremes or Temptations.

[LoveSupreme]

I would hardly consider an album that no one heard or bought as ending on a high note.

That was an incredibly mean spirited thing to post. Many people have heard of this album. It's one thing to have your own personal opinion about something but to ascribe that opinion as fact onto others is incorrect.

[soulwally]

That was an incredibly mean spirited thing to post. Many people have heard of this album. It's one thing to have your own personal opinion about something but to ascribe that opinion as fact onto others is incorrect.
Surely it is just an opinion? I didn't read it as being fact. Surely we're all grown up enough to work it out for ourselves

[LoveSupreme]

Surely it is just an opinion? I didn't read it as being fact. Surely we're all grown up enough to work it out for ourselves

That is true soulwally.

[marv2]

That was an incredibly mean spirited thing to post. Many people have heard of this album. It's one thing to have your own personal opinion about something but to ascribe that opinion as fact onto others is incorrect.

The album did not even make the Hot 100 and there were no charting singles from it. If reality is mean, then it is a cruel, cruel World!

[arr&bee]

"classic motown" ended in 1972-73 when gordy moved the company out of detroit.took the words right out of my mouth!!

[TomatoTom123]

Motown continued on without Berry Gordy. First with Jheryl Busby and others later on.

True, Marv. But, technically, Motown still exists today, with a lady by the name of Ethiopia Habtemarian as President. Can you still consider it "Motown" anymore?

Ah, I love a good question! :)

[TomatoTom123]

"Classic Motown" ended in 1972-73 when Gordy moved the company out of Detroit.

Yea, you're probably right there, Marv. I reckon most Motown fans would agree with you. But the label was still making excellent music in the 1970s and 1980s, of course!

[marv2]

took the words right out of my mouth!!

Exactly! Even though Motown still retained several of it's classic acts on their roster [[i.e. Stevie Wonder, Marvin Gaye, Smokey Robinson, the Supremes, The Temptations etc.) once he moved the company to California, the Funk Brothers, most of their songwriters and valuable staff were left in Detroit. There was no more "Motown Sound" once they left Detroit.

[marv2]

Yea, you're probably right there, Marv. I reckon most Motown fans would agree with you. But the label was still making excellent music in the 1970s and 1980s, of course!

They made excellent music, it just was not as excellent or memorable as what they made in Detroit. I bought a lot of albums released on Motown in the latter 70s into the 80s, but it just was not the same. The songs I/we bought released by Motown are the ones everyone still want to hear today.

[marv2]

True, Marv. But, technically, Motown still exists today, with a lady by the name of Ethiopia Habtemarian as President. Can you still consider it "Motown" anymore?

Ah, I love a good question! :)

In name only. For us that were still in Detroit back in the day, Motown ended for all intents and purposes once they left the Donovan Building! LOL!!!!

[TomatoTom123]

I would hardly consider an album that no one heard or bought as ending on a high note.

I think Everything Is Everything is a reasonable suggestion as one of last examples of classic Motown; a lovely piece of pop-soul from the final years [[1970-72) of Motown's golden period. And the LP didn't do that badly, did it? I hope not; I always thought it was a nice album.


The album did not even make the Hot 100 and there were no charting singles from it. If reality is mean, then it is a cruel, cruel World!

I just checked and I believe Everything Is Everything made #42 on the Pop Album Charts [[Billboard 200) and #5 on the R&B Album Charts. There were also two singles released: "I'm Still Waiting" which made #63 on the Pop Charts [[Hot 100) and #40 on the R&B Charts, and "Doobedood'ndoobe" [[not typing the whole thing out!) which didn't chart in the US. "I'm Still Waiting" was also a #1 smash in the UK and "Doobe" was a #12 hit as well! :)

[TomatoTom123]

Hey Tom, as long as artists continue to be signed to Motown, Motown is still Motown. It hasn't ceased being anything, IMO. Lots of great music and artists came out of the label after Gordy sold it. However, to piggyback on PeaceNHarmony's comment about individual talents being signed, that's the way I view all the artists signed to Motown after the Jackson 5. Aside from the classic sound, the one other thing that set Motown apart from other labels was the grooming of acts and the attention given, and I don't think anyone after the J5 was given the Artist Development treatment [[as we know it). So while some may look at the Commodores or Tata Vega as more Motown than Boyz II Men or India Arie, in my book they're the same kind of Motown artists, individual talents but not groomed by Gordy and company in the way of the Supremes or Temptations.

Mmm, good point, RanRan. I hadn't thought about that before. I shouldn't underestimate the importance of artists development when it comes to Motown!

I kinda look at it from a writers/producers perspective... in the 1960s, Motown had its 'staff writers' and producers who would work solely with Motown acts, right? They would recycle songs with different singers, collaborate with each other, etc. But into the late 1980s and 1990s [[with Boyz II Men, India Arie) I don't think Motown had fixed 'staff writers' and producers who would only work with Motown artists. Obviously they weren't all recording in one studio in Detroit anymore so things couldn't be the same!!

I feel like I'm rambling now so I'm just gon' stop... ;)

[marv2]

I think Everything Is Everything is a reasonable suggestion as one of last examples of classic Motown; a lovely piece of pop-soul from the final years [[1970-72) of Motown's golden period. And the LP didn't do that badly, did it? I hope not; I always thought it was a nice album.



I just checked and I believe Everything Is Everything made #42 on the Pop Album Charts [[Billboard 200) and #5 on the R&B Album Charts. There were also two singles released: "I'm Still Waiting" which made #63 on the Pop Charts [[Hot 100) and #40 on the R&B Charts, and "Doobedood'ndoobe" [[not typing the whole thing out!) which didn't chart in the US. "I'm Still Waiting" was also a #1 smash in the UK and "Doobe" was a #12 hit as well! :)

I totally disagree. Stevie Wonder's album "Signed, Sealed & Delivered in which was released a few months before Diane's album in 1970 was a far better example of classic Motown. It reached #25 on the Billboard Pop Chart and #7 on the Billboard R&B Chart and contained four popular songs that received considerable radio airplay:

"Never Had a Dream Come True" [[Stevie Wonder, Henry Cosby, Sylvia Moy) It peaked at #26 on the Pop Chart.

"We Can Work It Out" [[John Lennon, Paul McCartney) It reached #13 on the Pop Chart.

"Signed, Sealed, Delivered I'm Yours" [[Lee Garrett, Lula Mae Hardaway, Wonder, Syreeta Wright) It spend 6 weeks at #1.

"Heaven Help Us All" [[RonMiller) It went to #9 on the Pop Chart.

It was also the first album that Stevie produced himself and it had that Motown Sound power about it.

[carole cucumber]

http://www.seabear.se/Motown08.html

http://bsnpubs.com/motown/tmg.html

[marv2]

I think Everything Is Everything is a reasonable suggestion as one of last examples of classic Motown; a lovely piece of pop-soul from the final years [[1970-72) of Motown's golden period. And the LP didn't do that badly, did it? I hope not; I always thought it was a nice album.



I just checked and I believe Everything Is Everything made #42 on the Pop Album Charts [[Billboard 200) and #5 on the R&B Album Charts. There were also two singles released: "I'm Still Waiting" which made #63 on the Pop Charts [[Hot 100) and #40 on the R&B Charts, and "Doobedood'ndoobe" [[not typing the whole thing out!) which didn't chart in the US. "I'm Still Waiting" was also a #1 smash in the UK and "Doobe" was a #12 hit as well! :)

I don't know what you are talking about, but you need to read Peace N Harmony's post again......closely. He was referring to Diana Ross' 1999 album "Every Day Is A New Day" not her 1970 album "Everything is Everything". Every Day flopped totally in the U.S.

[TomatoTom123]

I don't know what you are talking about, but you need to read Peace N Harmony's post again......closely. He was referring to Diana Ross' 1999 album "Every Day Is A New Day" not her 1970 album "Everything is Everything". Every Day flopped totally in the U.S.

Oh, WHOOPS! Haaaaa... I was rambling after all... sorry

[TomatoTom123]

I totally disagree. Stevie Wonder's album "Signed, Sealed & Delivered in which was released a few months before Diane's album in 1970 was a far better example of classic Motown. It reached #25 on the Billboard Pop Chart and #7 on the Billboard R&B Chart and contained four popular songs that received considerable radio airplay:

"Never Had a Dream Come True" [[Stevie Wonder, Henry Cosby, Sylvia Moy) It peaked at #26 on the Pop Chart.

"We Can Work It Out" [[John Lennon, Paul McCartney) It reached #13 on the Pop Chart.

"Signed, Sealed, Delivered I'm Yours" [[Lee Garrett, Lula Mae Hardaway, Wonder, Syreeta Wright) It spend 6 weeks at #1.

"Heaven Help Us All" [[RonMiller) It went to #9 on the Pop Chart.

It was also the first album that Stevie produced himself and it had that Motown Sound power about it.

Marv, you disagree with my now-nonsensical and random post!!!! I don't even agree with me anymore. Or do I? LOL

Anyways, you make an interesting point about Stevie's Signed, Sealed, Delivered album. "Never Had A Dream Come True" is indeed a delightful slice of Motown. However, I kinda think "Signed, Sealed, Delivered" is a little too funky to be 'classic Motown' and is more an indicator of where Motown music [[i.e. Stevie) was headed. "Heaven Help Us All" is a little too gospel-ish and socially-conscious to fit into the squeaky-clean radio-friendly Motown of the 1960s, for me. :)

[TomatoTom123]

http://www.seabear.se/Motown08.html

http://bsnpubs.com/motown/tmg.html

carole, thank you so very much! That's exactly what I was looking for. So the last Motown single released with Berry as boss was Darryl Duncan's "Heaven" b/w "Rock Me" in April of 1988. Wilson Pickett had a single scheduled for May 1988 [["Love Never Let Me Down" b/w "Just Let Her Know") which would have been the final Motown single had it been released. Fascinating! Thanks carole :D

[TomatoTom123]

Anyways, you make an interesting point about Stevie's Signed, Sealed, Delivered album. "Never Had A Dream Come True" is indeed a delightful slice of Motown. However, I kinda think "Signed, Sealed, Delivered" is a little too funky to be 'classic Motown' and is more a indicator of where Motown music [[i.e. Stevie) was headed. "Heaven Help Us All" is a little too gospel-ish and socially-conscious to fit into the squeaky-clean radio-friendly Motown of the 1960s, for me. :)

You know, listening now, the LP is something of a transition album! There are really very funky tracks in "Joy [[Takes Over Me)" and "You Can't Judge A Book By Its Cover" but "I Can't Let My Heaven Walk Away" harks back to '60s Motown. For a cracking combination of both Motown and Stevie's developing Funk style there's the brilliant "Sugar"....! :)

[TomatoTom123]

carole, thank you so very much! That's exactly what I was looking for. So the last Motown single released with Berry as boss was Darryl Duncan's "Heaven" b/w "Rock Me" in April of 1988. Wilson Pickett had a single scheduled for May 1988 [["Love Never Let Me Down" b/w "Just Let Her Know") which would have been the final Motown single had it been released. Fascinating! Thanks carole :D

So this is the last Motown song...?


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YCdmgmTIIkA

[PeaceNHarmony]

That is true soulwally.

I don't think it's 'true'. We all know this person's intentions.

[RanRan79]

Mmm, good point, RanRan. I hadn't thought about that before. I shouldn't underestimate the importance of artists development when it comes to Motown!

I kinda look at it from a writers/producers perspective... in the 1960s, Motown had its 'staff writers' and producers who would work solely with Motown acts, right? They would recycle songs with different singers, collaborate with each other, etc. But into the late 1980s and 1990s [[with Boyz II Men, India Arie) I don't think Motown had fixed 'staff writers' and producers who would only work with Motown artists. Obviously they weren't all recording in one studio in Detroit anymore so things couldn't be the same!!

I feel like I'm rambling now so I'm just gon' stop... ;)

Ramble on Tom. It's a much better read than some of the idiot posts that appear around here from certain people. Anyway, what you describe here is how Motown became just another record label. But it was still Motown. Classic Motown ended in the early 70s, when the label was still operating [[somewhat) like it did in the 60s. When it ceased being what it once was [[a unique musical entity), it became what it is: just another record company. But again, it was still Motown. As long as the name stays Motown IMO that's what it will always be. And the legacy will carry with it.

[PeaceNHarmony]

That was an incredibly mean spirited thing to post. Many people have heard of this album. It's one thing to have your own personal opinion about something but to ascribe that opinion as fact onto others is incorrect.

Of course it was. I only saw the comment by your reply; I suggest you ignore this person. You'll be happier here!

[PeaceNHarmony]

Hi Tom - this has been a great thread. Unfortunately now polluted. But you chose a great idea!

[TomatoTom123]

Ramble on Tom. It's a much better read than some of the idiot posts that appear around here from certain people. Anyway, what you describe here is how Motown became just another record label. But it was still Motown. Classic Motown ended in the early 70s, when the label was still operating [[somewhat) like it did in the 60s. When it ceased being what it once was [[a unique musical entity), it became what it is: just another record company. But again, it was still Motown. As long as the name stays Motown IMO that's what it will always be. And the legacy will carry with it.

Thanks RanRan! I shall ramble.

Yes, sadly, Motown did kinda become another record label towards the end. But even in the late '70's it still had staff writers like Winston Monseque and Michael & Brenda Sutton. And, even in the late '80s, any label that has both Smokey AND Stevie on its roster is still legendary!

And, yes, RanRan, it's all about the legacy!!!! :)

[marv2]

Marv, you disagree with my now-nonsensical and random post!!!! I don't even agree with me anymore. Or do I? LOL

Anyways, you make an interesting point about Stevie's Signed, Sealed, Delivered album. "Never Had A Dream Come True" is indeed a delightful slice of Motown. However, I kinda think "Signed, Sealed, Delivered" is a little too funky to be 'classic Motown' and is more a indicator of where Motown music [[i.e. Stevie) was headed. "Heaven Help Us All" is a little too gospel-ish and socially-conscious to fit into the squeaky-clean radio-friendly Motown of the 1960s, for me. :)

You have to be kidding in regards to "Signed, Sealed & Delivered" not being classic Motown because it was too funky. I can tell you've never been to a Detroit house party and especially not during 1970! LOL! My parents gave house parties and EVERYONE that could find a spot jumped up and danced to it as soon as they heard the opening notes1 It had all the elements of a classic Motown scorcher. First it had Stevie , obviously, the Funk Brothers, Hell it even had a future Supreme on it [[Lynda Laurence LOL!). It had a strong bassline, tamborines, Gospelish backing vocals and Stevie wailing away sometimes to the point where you cannot tell what he is actually saying! It was soul, funk,it was Detroit.......it was Motown!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inXC_lab-34

[marv2]

Hi Tom - this has been a great thread. Unfortunately now polluted. But you chose a great idea!
That's no way to talk about your fellow forum members.

[TomatoTom123]

Hi Tom - this has been a great thread. Unfortunately now polluted. But you chose a great idea!

Thanks PNH, this part of Motown history always fascinates me. Motown was alive for almost thirty years and produced some of the best music there ever was and ever will be! I'm so intrigued to know how it all came to an end in June of 1988...

[PeaceNHarmony]

Ran and Tom - Of course, with Diana Ross selling out extended gigs in NY it's apparent that Motown is indeed an ongoing legacy!

[TomatoTom123]

You have to be kidding in regards to "Signed, Sealed & Delivered" not being classic Motown because it was too funky. I can tell you've never been to a Detroit house party and especially not during 1970! LOL! My parents gave house parties and EVERYONE that could find a spot jumped up and danced to it as soon as they heard the opening notes1 It had all the elements of a classic Motown scorcher. First it had Stevie , obviously, the Funk Brothers, Hell it even had a future Supreme on it [[Lynda Laurence LOL!). It had a strong bassline, tamborines, Gospelish backing vocals and Stevie wailing away sometimes to the point where you cannot tell what he is actually saying! It was soul, funk,it was Detroit.......it was Motown!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inXC_lab-34

Marv, you guess correctly... :)

I should say, I think "Signed, Sealed, Delivered" is absolutely brilliant; it is funky, it is soulful, it is vibrant, explosive, joyous, and just wonderful! But it just doesn't scream 'Motown' to me. It's not got that mid-'60s radio-friendly pop-soul feel to it that I associate with classic Motown. I definitely take your points though, Marv. :)

I don't think "Papa Was A Rollin' Stone" has much to do with the Motown sound, either.

The Temptations' 1972 track "Smooth Sailing" is much more Motown-ish to me...!


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HM6R7ajzEFo

[marv2]

Marv, you guess correctly... :)

I should say, I think "Signed, Sealed, Delivered" is absolutely brilliant; it is funky, it is soulful, it is vibrant, explosive, joyous, and just wonderful! But it just doesn't scream 'Motown' to me. It's not got that mid-'60s radio-friendly pop-soul feel to it that I associate with classic Motown. I definitely take your points though, Marv. :)

I don't think "Papa Was A Rollin' Stone" has much to do with the Motown sound, either.

The Temptations' 1972 track "Smooth Sailing" is much more Motown-ish to me...!


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HM6R7ajzEFo

Now that is interesting. My God, the song spent 6 weeks at #1 here in America. I have pretty always felt that 1970 was the last full year of Motown's dominance with the "sound" Listen to the Jackson 5's output for the year 1970. These were just as joyous as "Mickey's Monkey" or "Get Ready" in the sixties.

[TomatoTom123]

Now that is interesting. My God, the song spent 6 weeks at #1 here in America. I have pretty always felt that 1970 was the last full year of Motown's dominance with the "sound" Listen to the Jackson 5's output for the year 1970. These were just as joyous as "Mickey's Monkey" or "Get Ready" in the sixties.

Mmm, good point. "I Want You Back", "ABC" and "The Love You Save" are all joyous and infectious slices of pure Pop-Soul: Motown gold!

[marv2]

Mmm, good point. "I Want You Back", "ABC" and "The Love You Save" are all joyous and infectious slices of pure Pop-Soul: Motown gold!

Then there was the monumentally epic........."STONE LOVE" by the Supremes LOL! But please don't forget it was also the year of "War" by Edwin Starr," Ain't No Mountain High Enough" by Diana Ross, "I Can't Get Next To You" and "Ball of Confusion" by the Temptations!

[TomatoTom123]

Then there was the monumentally epic........."STONE LOVE" by the Supremes LOL! But please don't forget it was also the year of "War" by Edwin Starr," Ain't No Mountain High Enough" by Diana Ross, "I Can't Get Next To You" and "Ball of Confusion" by the Temptations!

Oh, Marv, now you're bringing out the classics...

However, "War" and "Ball Of Confusion" are completely opposite to what 'Motown' represents to me... and yet equally BRILLIANT!

"Ain't No Mountain" is the Motown sound gone gospel and "I Can't Get Next To You" is Motown meets pyschedelic soul! "Stoned Love" is both!!!

Haaa... I love it all!!! :)

[marv2]

So this is the last Motown song...?


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YCdmgmTIIkA

This and Smokey's "Just to See Her" were probably the last Motown releases [[other than Boyz II Men's "The End of the Road" in 1992) were that I absolutely loved from the first moment I heard it. Oh and the Four Tops "Sexy Ways" in 1984-85:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPUsQDm-HQY

[carole cucumber]

http://raresoul.com/2012/06/28/motown-records-sold-61-million-dollars/

http://articles.latimes.com/1991-05-15/business/fi-1788_1_motown-records

[jsmith]

Well Motown as a 'pure product' surely ended in late 84, when old Hi Records recordings started to get released on the Motown Label [[Al Green, etc) ...
12884

I'd guess though that, as an indie, the Magic Lady album & single has to be one of the last Motown releases [[April 88) ... I like their track [[even though the opening is a blatant rip off of LVD's NEVER TOO MUCH ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGALsP3ua8U

[LoveSupreme]

The album did not even make the Hot 100 and there were no charting singles from it. If reality is mean, then it is a cruel, cruel World!

Yeah...tell that to Mary Wilson. :-)

[TomatoTom123]

This and Smokey's "Just to See Her" were probably the last Motown releases [[other than Boyz II Men's "The End of the Road" in 1992) were that I absolutely loved from the first moment I heard it. Oh and the Four Tops "Sexy Ways" in 1984-85:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPUsQDm-HQY

Yea, they're all great ones to 'finish' on, Marv. The Tempts had some real gems on their late '80s albums, too. I love "Lady Soul" and "Put Us Together Again" from 1986, and "I Wonder Who She's Seeing Now" and "Little Things" from 1987. Oh and I just love The Tops' "Hot Nights" as well as "Sexy Ways"...!

And "Treat Her Like A Lady...? A CLASSIC! :)

[TomatoTom123]

I'd guess though that, as an indie, the Magic Lady album & single has to be one of the last Motown releases [[April 88) ... I like their track [[even though the opening is a blatant rip off of LVD's NEVER TOO MUCH ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGALsP3ua8U

Hey jsmith, I think that Magic Lady LP is actually the very last Motown album to be released before the company was sold to MCA. It's the last original album listed on the bsnpubs Motown discography website carole provided. :)

BTW, it's a rather excellent album.
I love "Betcha Can't Lose" and I like this track very much as well...!


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9boR84HBXTw

[TomatoTom123]

Well Motown as a 'pure product' surely ended in late 84, when old Hi Records recordings started to get released on the Motown Label [[Al Green, etc) ...
12884

Ok, now this is freaking me out... Al Green material was released on the Motown label? What!? How did this happen? :)

[TomatoTom123]

http://raresoul.com/2012/06/28/motown-records-sold-61-million-dollars/

http://articles.latimes.com/1991-05-15/business/fi-1788_1_motown-records

Mmm... interesting, thank you carole. It seems MCA kinda ignored Motown when they acquired the company...?

[PeaceNHarmony]

Tom - interesting about the later-days Motown staff writers. I did not realize M'tn still had staff writers -

[phil]

"Classic Motown" ended in 1972-73 when Gordy moved the company out of Detroit.

So true Marv, the dream was over.

[reese]

Ok, now this is freaking me out... Al Green material was released on the Motown label? What!? How did this happen? :)

I think Motown must have gotten rights and/or distributed some HI recordings at one point. I remember some of Al's albums being re-released by Motown on vinyl. Then when the CD era began, a lot of these were released yet again. Some VJ recordings by Jimmy Reed and Little Richard also ended up being released on cd by Motown as well.

[marv2]

So true Marv, the dream was over.

Phil, few people know that more than half of the Motown Company were either left or stayed behind in Detroit. Many of it's staff personnel and many of the early artists that were on their roster. This is what made it so easy for British producer, Ian Levine to round so many up and record them again in the late 80s.

[McMotown]

Has anyone got a rough idea how many people were working for Motown before the company left Detroit?

[motony]

as far as I am concerned, once Motown left Detroit it because just another record label, nothing unique or special.

[luke]

Is Stevie still signed to Motown?

[jobeterob]

Yeah...tell that to Mary Wilson. :-)

Sadly for almost all the background people, this is how Motown ended - hitless and struggling often resulting in the bitterness we've seen.

Outside of Berry Diana Smokey Lionel And Stevie-that was how motown ended.

[Motown Eddie]

Ok, now this is freaking me out... Al Green material was released on the Motown label? What!? How did this happen? :)

This happened because Hi Records [[Al Green's record label) made a distribution deal with Motown in 1983 which lasted through 1988. After the Motown deal ended, the Hi Records catalog would be distributed by MCA, Capitol-EMI, and their current distributors, Fat Possum Records.

[marv2]

as far as I am concerned, once Motown left Detroit it because just another record label, nothing unique or special.

Yes, they basically became just another recording company and the music suffered because of it.

[TomatoTom123]

Tom - interesting about the later-days Motown staff writers. I did not realize M'tn still had staff writers -

Yea, PNH, they still had 'em! And, even into the 1980s, you had Motown artists producing other Motown artists, like Stevie Wonder, Jermaine Jackson and Rick James. I do love a good collaboration ;)

[TomatoTom123]

Yes, they basically became just another recording company and the music suffered because of it.

Do you think Motown could have continued to be the successful label that it was in the '60s had it stayed in Detroit?

[TomatoTom123]

I think Motown must have gotten rights and/or distributed some HI recordings at one point. I remember some of Al's albums being re-released by Motown on vinyl. Then when the CD era began, a lot of these were released yet again. Some VJ recordings by Jimmy Reed and Little Richard also ended up being released on cd by Motown as well.


This happened because Hi Records [[Al Green's record label) made a distribution deal with Motown in 1983 which lasted through 1988. After the Motown deal ended, the Hi Records catalog would be distributed by MCA, Capitol-EMI, and their current distributors, Fat Possum Records.

Thanks guys. Interesting! But that doesn't mean you can count Al Green as a Motown artist, right??!!

[reese]

Thanks guys. Interesting! But that doesn't mean you can count Al Green as a Motown artist, right??!!

I wouldn't count Al as a Motown artist. He was never signed to the label.

[TomatoTom123]

I wouldn't count Al as a Motown artist. He was never signed to the label.

Yea, me too. But what about that Chisa label that Motown distributed? Could you consider its artists Motown artists?

So many Qs... ;)

[marv2]

Do you think Motown could have continued to be the successful label that it was in the '60s had it stayed in Detroit?

Yes! Just as Philadelphia International was hugely successful in their home town. I believe if Motown had kept the music end of their business in Detroit and focused on that core business, they would have remained unbeatable! You had many young artists left in Detroit that never got heard outside of Detroit and trust me, some were excellent! The music got diluted and side - track once they moved to LA because of Berry's desire to do movies, etc.

[marv2]

I wouldn't count Al as a Motown artist. He was never signed to the label.

No Al Green was not a Motown artist. He worked with and knew many of them though from the touring circuit.

[marv2]

Marv, you disagree with my now-nonsensical and random post!!!! I don't even agree with me anymore. Or do I? LOL

Anyways, you make an interesting point about Stevie's Signed, Sealed, Delivered album. "Never Had A Dream Come True" is indeed a delightful slice of Motown. However, I kinda think "Signed, Sealed, Delivered" is a little too funky to be 'classic Motown' and is more an indicator of where Motown music [[i.e. Stevie) was headed. "Heaven Help Us All" is a little too gospel-ish and socially-conscious to fit into the squeaky-clean radio-friendly Motown of the 1960s, for me. :)

To me, "Heaven Help Us All" was similar to Stevie's popular 60s holiday recording "Someday At Christmas". Think about the lyrics to both songs.

[Sotosound]

To my ears, the early 70s J5 sound was a bit like a pop-ey version of Motown, and the mixing and mastering had some classic Motown values to them. And even as we moved towards the mid-70s there were still some production values there which made Motown stand out. To my ears they just weren't as attractive as the Philly sound or the Barry White sound etc., however.

Regarding "Signed, Sealed, Delivered", I see that as evolutionary rather than revolutionary. Motown evolved throughout its time in Detroit, and the move from the late 60s into the early 70s was just evolution. For instance, Norman Whitfield's psychedelic soul was Motown through and through. So was Frank Wilson's work with the Supremes and Four Tops.

Does it sound like HDH from 1966, however? Not really. Does it sound like anything else in the late 60s and early 70s? Not really. It was still Motown, with the Funk Brothers and very clear and unique production values.

[marv2]

To my ears, the early 70s J5 sound was a bit like a pop-ey version of Motown, and the mixing and mastering had some classic Motown values to them. And even as we moved towards the mid-70s there were still some production values there which made Motown stand out. To my ears they just weren't as attractive as the Philly sound or the Barry White sound etc., however.

Regarding "Signed, Sealed, Delivered", I see that as evolutionary rather than revolutionary. Motown evolved throughout its time in Detroit, and the move from the late 60s into the early 70s was just evolution. For instance, Norman Whitfield's psychedelic soul was Motown through and through. So was Frank Wilson's work with the Supremes and Four Tops.

Does it sound like HDH from 1966, however? Not really. Does it sound like anything else in the late 60s and early 70s? Not really. It was still Motown, with the Funk Brothers and very clear and unique production values.


I agree! Great post Sotosound.

[TomatoTom123]

To my ears, the early 70s J5 sound was a bit like a pop-ey version of Motown, and the mixing and mastering had some classic Motown values to them. And even as we moved towards the mid-70s there were still some production values there which made Motown stand out. To my ears they just weren't as attractive as the Philly sound or the Barry White sound etc., however.

Regarding "Signed, Sealed, Delivered", I see that as evolutionary rather than revolutionary. Motown evolved throughout its time in Detroit, and the move from the late 60s into the early 70s was just evolution. For instance, Norman Whitfield's psychedelic soul was Motown through and through. So was Frank Wilson's work with the Supremes and Four Tops.

Does it sound like HDH from 1966, however? Not really. Does it sound like anything else in the late 60s and early 70s? Not really. It was still Motown, with the Funk Brothers and very clear and unique production values.


Mmm, interesting points, Sotosound. I agree that Motown was always evolving its sound. But, apart from The Funk Brothers' wonderful playing and the excellent production -- and it just being generally fantastic Soul music -- Norman Whitfield's extended psychedelic epics, the brooding, cinematic soul sounding like something out of a Blaxpoitation movie, has almost nothing to do with the catchy, radio-friendly blend of danceable Pop-Soul -- the 'Motown Sound' -- for me. Both are fantastic in their own ways, of course!

[Sotosound]

Mmm, interesting points, Sotosound. I agree that Motown was always evolving its sound. But, apart from The Funk Brothers' wonderful playing and the excellent production -- and it just being generally fantastic Soul music -- Norman Whitfield's extended psychedelic epics, the brooding, cinematic soul sounding like something out of a Blaxpoitation movie, has almost nothing to do with the catchy, radio-friendly blend of danceable Pop-Soul -- the 'Motown Sound' -- for me. Both are fantastic in their own ways, of course!

It's funny, really. I have friends who ask me to play some Motown, and if I play The Stylistics or Three Degrees or Barry White or Johnny Bristol or O'Jays, i.e. no Motown at all they get what they actually had in mind.

I also understand, however, about what you call "the 'Motown Sound'.

For me, I really became aware of Motown in 1969, and my first Motown single was probably part of the evolutionary stuff, being "Don't Know Why I Love You" by Stevie Wonder.

After that, I started to acquire a broader mixture, including the three Chartbusters albums that were available then, plus the Four Tops' "Reach Out" LP and a mono copy of the DRATS "Reflections" LP.

From my perspective, it was all on EMI's Tamla Motown label and all fantastic Motown music. Hence we probably come at this from different angles and, in reality, The Motown Sound will mean different things for different folks.

As for what my friends ask me to play, however, that falls under the heading of "No comment." :)

[daviddh]

great thread. I always thought that Motown ended when it was sold.
now reading various posts I see it may be different. its kind of like when the supremes ended. to some it ended in aug 67 but then again the supremes would exist for another 10 years and in many ways they still exist through all of us as does motown

[Motown Eddie]

Yea, me too. But what about that Chisa label that Motown distributed? Could you consider its artists Motown artists?

So many Qs... ;)

No, you can't count any of the artists who were singed to Chisa Records as Motown artists. Motown only distributed Chisa from 1969 through 1972 [[after which they were handled by Blue Thumb Records). Also, several of the Rock groups who appeared on Motown's Rare Earth label were under contract to EMI [[or Polydor) overseas and their recordings were only licensed to Motown/Rare Earth. These artists cannot be considered Motown artists either.

[TomatoTom123]

It's funny, really. I have friends who ask me to play some Motown, and if I play The Stylistics or Three Degrees or Barry White or Johnny Bristol or O'Jays, i.e. no Motown at all they get what they actually had in mind.

I also understand, however, about what you call "the 'Motown Sound'.

For me, I really became aware of Motown in 1969, and my first Motown single was probably part of the evolutionary stuff, being "Don't Know Why I Love You" by Stevie Wonder.

After that, I started to acquire a broader mixture, including the three Chartbusters albums that were available then, plus the Four Tops' "Reach Out" LP and a mono copy of the DRATS "Reflections" LP.

From my perspective, it was all on EMI's Tamla Motown label and all fantastic Motown music. Hence we probably come at this from different angles and, in reality, The Motown Sound will mean different things for different folks.

As for what my friends ask me to play, however, that falls under the heading of "No comment." :)


Haaa... I guess for non-Motown lovers/obsessors 'Motown' just means 'any old Soul music'...!

I think you can kinda separate between 'Motown the label' and 'Motown the genre'... for me, a song that has the 'Motown sound' doesn't have to be from a particular year or by a particular artist, it just has to have that Motown feel! I mean, "My Destiny" is more Motown than "Love Child" or "Psychedelic Shack" IMO. Hell, "Chain Reaction" is more Motown than "Last Time I Saw Him"...!!!

But you're right, Sotosound, the 'Motown sound' can mean whatever you want it to mean... within reason... lol ;)

[TomatoTom123]

great thread. I always thought that Motown ended when it was sold.
now reading various posts I see it may be different. its kind of like when the supremes ended. to some it ended in aug 67 but then again the supremes would exist for another 10 years and in many ways they still exist through all of us as does motown

Hey, david, I think I agree with you there. I might say that the 'classic Motown era' ended in the early 1970s but 'Motown' really, fully ended in 1988 when Berry sold it! Although I might also say that "My Destiny" is the last true Motown song... :)

And of course the Motown legacy lives on!!!!

[TomatoTom123]

No, you can't count any of the artists who were singed to Chisa Records as Motown artists. Motown only distributed Chisa from 1969 through 1972 [[after which they were handled by Blue Thumb Records). Also, several of the Rock groups who appeared on Motown's Rare Earth label were under contract to EMI [[or Polydor) overseas and their recordings were only licensed to Motown/Rare Earth. These artists cannot be considered Motown artists either.

Ah, OK, thanks Eddie. My OCD is kept at bay. Lol

If they could be considered Motown artists you would have to do so with Judas Preist too as their Sad Wings Of Destiny was distributed by Motown in the US!!!! BLECH ;)

[Motown Eddie]

Ah, OK, thanks Eddie. My OCD is kept at bay. Lol

If they could be considered Motown artists you would have to do so with Judas Preist too as their Sad Wings Of Destiny was distributed by Motown in the US!!!! BLECH ;)

You're welcome. And the distribution deal that Gull Records [[Judas Priest's label at the time) had with Motown was so short [[1975-1976) that by the time Sad Wings Of Destiny came out in the States, it was distributed by GRT Records [[on their Janus label). Another side note: JP's first LP, Rocka Rolla [[from 1974) didn't receive a release in the US until 1979 [[on Visa Records).

[marv2]

great thread. I always thought that Motown ended when it was sold.
now reading various posts I see it may be different. its kind of like when the supremes ended. to some it ended in aug 67 but then again the supremes would exist for another 10 years and in many ways they still exist through all of us as does motown

For me, the Supremes ended on June 12, 1977. Ironically, I was standing in front of the building where I was on the day they were giving their farewell concert. Very hard to believe it's been 40 years already.

[TomatoTom123]

You're welcome. And the distribution deal that Gull Records [[Judas Priest's label at the time) had with Motown was so short [[1975-1976) that by the time Sad Wings Of Destiny came out in the States, it was distributed by GRT Records [[on their Janus label). Another side note: JP's first LP, Rocka Rolla [[from 1974) didn't receive a release in the US until 1979 [[on Visa Records).

Oh right! I never knew that. Thanks Eddie.

I found an acetate of Rocka Rolla on Motown: https://www.discogs.com/Judas-Priest-Rocka-Rolla/release/5746482

[daviddh]

I really enjoyed Standing In The Shadows Of Motown. Highly recommend it.
I think had Motown kept the Detroit location open things would have been different for do many

[Motown Eddie]

For me, the final high point for Motown is the Motown 25 TV special in 1983. I know that the show was flawed but several of the performances made the show worthwhile. And the end of Motown came when it was sold to Universal Music and became just a "label" in 2005.

[marv2]

Mmm, interesting points, Sotosound. I agree that Motown was always evolving its sound. But, apart from The Funk Brothers' wonderful playing and the excellent production -- and it just being generally fantastic Soul music -- Norman Whitfield's extended psychedelic epics, the brooding, cinematic soul sounding like something out of a Blaxpoitation movie, has almost nothing to do with the catchy, radio-friendly blend of danceable Pop-Soul -- the 'Motown Sound' -- for me. Both are fantastic in their own ways, of course!

If you couldn't dance to Norman Whitfield's productions on the Temptations, you had to have been cripple or asleep. LOL! Whew! "The Corporation" that did their thing with the J-5 also had some very danceable grooves, but with lighter, bubblegum lyrics for the kids.

[marv2]

I really enjoyed Standing In The Shadows Of Motown. Highly recommend it.
I think had Motown kept the Detroit location open things would have been different for do many

Ironically, "Classic Motown" saw a rebirth, even if short-lived after that program. The Four Tops and I believe Jr. Walker resigned to Motown and then there was the soundtrack to "The Big Chill" and later "Dirty Dancing".