Was Martha a Vandella??

[luke]

Smokey was a Miracle , Diana a Supreme...but was Martha a Vandella? Inquiring minds want to know.

[144man]

I think the answer depends on whether she had a separate contract with Motown.

[johnny_raven]

Weren't The Vandellas employed by Martha and not Motown?

[144man]

I read that somewhere.

[kenneth]

Weren't The Vandellas employed by Martha and not Motown?

I think Martha stated that in her book but I always wondered if that were really the case, as it seemed so unlike Motown standard policy and practice. I'm sure it's true today but I still wonder how it could have worked back in the day.

I know there are a couple members here who know Martha. Maybe they can tell us.

[reese]

Their first publicity photo is labeled simply "The Vandellas," so I would say yes. But once they started recording, Martha received featured billing, even on the back of Marvin Gaye's THAT STUBBORN KINDA' FELLOW album.

I always found the history of Martha and the Vandellas interesting. From what I can piece together, they were the Del-Phis featuring Martha, Gloria, Rosalind, and Annette. But then they broke up for a while, and Martha was invited to audition as a solo for Motown. When she instead became Mickey Stevenson's secretary, she had to get backup vocalists for a Marvin Gaye session and on a whim, decided to call in her former group mates.

Berry produced a 45 on them and offered them a contract. Martha said yes. Gloria declined as she had just landed a job with the city of Detroit. Rosalind and Annette said they would consider it. In the LIVE WIRE! cd collection, it was written that Berry put Martha's name in the billing in case one of the other girls quit.

Not sure what the real story is, but it must have been a unique situation as aside from Jr. Walker and the All Stars, I can't think of any of their other acts that started with the lead getting featured billing right from the start.

[luke]

Didn't know they were billed as the Vandellas originally. Gloria was the initial lead singer with the Del Phis. I believe I read Roz or Annette debunked they worked for Martha at least in the hit years. They said they were always a group signed together. Don't understand Martha's lead billing if one of girls quit ...they'd still be Vandellas a la Marvelettes

[bradsupremes]

All of this I never truly understood. If the Vandellas were under Martha's control, then they wouldn't have been signed with Motown. In those early days, it seems unlikely Motown would have allowed Martha full control as the Vandellas would have had to be signed with Motown to record. If Roz, Annette and Betty receive royalties then surely they had to have been signed with Motown.

I also don't understand Martha being allowed to fire and hire who she wanted. We know she fired Betty and later Roz, but if they had contracts with Motown then Motown would have been the ones to fire them and choose their replacements.

And does anyone know the real story on why Roz was fired? I've heard 4 different stories about why she was fired.

[reese]

All of this I never truly understood. If the Vandellas were under Martha's control, then they wouldn't have been signed with Motown. In those early days, it seems unlikely Motown would have allowed Martha full control as the Vandellas would have had to be signed with Motown to record. If Roz, Annette and Betty receive royalties then surely they had to have been signed with Motown.

I also don't understand Martha being allowed to fire and hire who she wanted. We know she fired Betty and later Roz, but if they had contracts with Motown then Motown would have been the ones to fire them and choose their replacements.

And does anyone know the real story on why Roz was fired? I've heard 4 different stories about why she was fired.

Martha wrote that Roz had begun singing different harmony notes on stage, and also doing impromptu patter suggested by her boyfriend. Their shows were planned to the second, and Martha says this would throw her off as she never knew from one show to the next what would come out of Roz' mouth. In the end, she said she asked Roz to "do something else with her life." Roz later filed suit and won a settlement from Martha.

In an interview with A TOUCH OF CLASSIC SOUL, Roz said that she was called to the Motown offices and told that Martha no longer wanted to sing with her. I don't remember her giving specifics why, but she said she wasn't able to discuss it with Martha and that Martha was also sick around this time.

[carole cucumber]

http://soulfuldetroit.com/showthread.php?12192-Vandella-question&highlight=Stubborn+Kind

[carole cucumber]

[QUOTE=reese;380970]Their first publicity photo is labeled simply "The Vandellas," so I would say yes. But once they started recording, Martha received featured billing, even on the back of Marvin Gaye's THAT STUBBORN KINDA' FELLOW album. ....

However, the Stubborn Kind Of Fellow/ It Hurt Me Too single credits the background vocalists as the Vandellas... and the original purchase order form [[July 8, 1962) listed them as the Dominettes. When the order was placed on July 12, the name Dominettes had a line through it, with the groups 'new' name written above it as Vandellas.
I've often wondered if Martha's front billing resulted from the Tamla single that numerically precedes Stubborn Kind Of Fellow. There Saundra Mallet is paired with the Vandellas [[and again the purchase order has the original label listing as Vocal Accompaniment by the Dominettes, again with a line through it and the new name written above.
Perhaps Saundra's lead billing gave Martha the idea to petition Berry to put her name in front.

[Jimi LaLumia]

was Gladys ever a Pip? was Jr. ever an All Star?

[marv2]

I think Martha stated that in her book but I always wondered if that were really the case, as it seemed so unlike Motown standard policy and practice. I'm sure it's true today but I still wonder how it could have worked back in the day.

I know there are a couple members here who know Martha. Maybe they can tell us.

I know her and I would not ask her that if I were you.

[marv2]

was Gladys ever a Pip? was Jr. ever an All Star?

Gladys was a Pip when they started off as kids.

[luke]

Thanks. Wondered if Gladys was a Pip!

[marv2]

Thanks. Wondered if Gladys was a Pip!

Now the big question is, was Bobby Taylor a Vancouver? LOL!!!!

[luke]

Lol. Absolutely!!

[144man]

Now the big question is, was Bobby Taylor a Vancouver? LOL!!!!

Most definitely. When I saw them performing in London with Chris Clark before their first Motown release, they were just introduced as the Vancouvers, with no mention made of Bobby Taylor.

[marv2]

Most definitely. When I saw them performing in London with Chris Clark before their first Motown release, they were just introduced as the Vancouvers, with no mention made of Bobby Taylor.

Excellent! I never knew that. Thank you 144man.

[TomatoTom123]

Interesting... I have always wondered about lead singers in groups and their billing... for me "Junior Walker" has to go with "The All Stars" and "Gladys Knight" has to go with "The Pips". The Supremes and The Miracles are a-OK on their own. But I can't quite decide on [Martha Reeves &] The Vandellas and [Bobby Taylor &] The Vancouvers. Hmmmmm.... Why can't all groups be like The Four Tops!? Lol :D

[144man]

If I remember rightly, on one of Gladys Knight and the Pips' early releases on [[I think) Fury, they appear on the label only as "The Pips".

[144man]

Interesting... I have always wondered about lead singers in groups and their billing... for me "Junior Walker" has to go with "The All Stars" and "Gladys Knight" has to go with "The Pips". The Supremes and The Miracles are a-OK on their own. But I can't quite decide on [Martha Reeves &] The Vandellas and [Bobby Taylor &] The Vancouvers. Hmmmmm.... Why can't all groups be like The Four Tops!? Lol :D

The name "Martha & the Vandellas" flows better without "Reeves" added.

[BigAl]

My recollection is that Martha had no idea the addition of "Reeves" was going to happen and it was just sprung on her after Smokey and Diane got their top billings.

[reese]

If I remember rightly, on one of Gladys Knight and the Pips' early releases on [[I think) Fury, they appear on the label only as "The Pips".

They were the Pips until EVERY BEAT OF MY HEART was released almost simultaneously on two labels, Vee Jay and Fury. As they were signed to Fury, Fury wanted to distinguish their product from Vee Jay's and decided to bill the act as "Gladys Knight and the Pips."

[milven]

was Gladys ever a Pip? was Jr. ever an All Star?

The Pips recorded Every Beat of My Heart for the Huntom label, who later sold the master to Vee-Jay . When Vee-Jay released the record, the Pips were signed to and recording for the Fury label. So, they re-recorded the song without piano and under the name of Gladys Knight & the Pips . In an unusual occurrence, the Fury recording and the Vee-Jay recording were both hits on the charts. Follow up recordings of the group were on Fury and were billed as Gladys Knight & the Pips

12801

12802

[daviddesper]

I have no real opinion or knowledge on this original question, but I do agree with the point that Martha and the Vandellas rolled off the tongue soooo much easier than Martha Reeves and the Vandellas.

Saying the last name wasn't bad or anything but just didn't sound as good. Dick Clark especially knew JUST the right way to say "Martha" [[pause for effect) "and the Vandellas!"

[thanxal]

Does it matter?

[TomatoTom123]

I know "Martha" & The Vandellas sounds better than "Martha Reeves &" The Vandellas but my OCD won't allow me to have it! Lol... All the other groups have that two-word first name-surname before the group, like "Smokey Robinson" & The Miracles and "Gladys Knight" & The Pips.

[TomatoTom123]

Does it matter?

LOL! Probably not ;)

[144man]

Does it matter?

No one would be discussing it if it didn't.

[144man]

Thanks Reese & Milven for info on [Gladys Knight &] the Pips.

[Jimi LaLumia]

It matters in the context of one particular group where the lead singer's name was positioned up front and internecine[[ I ALWAYS wanted to use that word one day) warfare ensued, while none of the other groups, or their fans made a peep[[or a Pip)..The one group that truly had multiple lead singers,The Temptations, never put a name up front [[although I've head that Ruffin tried;must be something to do with those initials!!)and if Levi's name had been put out front, they would have had to change it to The Three Tops[[and then squirrels would have become confused!)

[luke]

Didn't Berry offer to change 4 Tops to Levi Stubbs and 4 Tops?

[Jimi LaLumia]

I've heard he wanted Levi to take top billing but the name would not have made sense unless they added another Top or changed it to Three. he also wanted Levi to act in Lady Sings The Blues but Mr. Stubbs decided to control his own destiny ; good for him!

[milven]

I always believed that Diana was still a Supreme when the name changed to DRATS. If she was, then the name is redundant. If she wasn't, then wasn't it then that she became a soloist with two background singers called The Supremes?

If Diana was still a Supreme, then the better billing would have been The Supremes featuring Diana Ross.

I believe Harold Melvin's group changed its billing for a while to Harold Melvin & the Bluenotes featuring Teddy Pendergrass. But the conflict occured when Teddy wanted more money than the others in the group.

The Supremes were being paid equally in the sixties. Maybe history would have changed in 2000 if, in the sixties, Diana demanded to be paid more than the other two Supremes, since she was usually the only one in the studio recording those Supremes records. Then, in 2000. there would have been no demand for equal pay, no conflict, no bad publicity on 20/20 and the tour could have been successful and a money maker for DMC. But I guess we will never know.

[144man]

I've heard he wanted Levi to take top billing but the name would not have made sense unless they added another Top or changed it to Three. he also wanted Levi to act in Lady Sings The Blues but Mr. Stubbs decided to control his own destiny ; good for him!

It was still Frankie Valli and the 4 Seasons when he took top billing. I suppose "Levi & the Tops" would have been an acceptable name.

[marv2]

To me it was all unnecessary to change the names of those groups. They were already successful, World famous brand names when the changes occurred.

[luke]

And Levi was quite secure and enjoyed being one of the group. His ego was healthy.

[luke]

Pic in Motown book of initial Supremes billing change in Atlantic Cirty. "The Supremes with Diana Ross "

[Circa 1824]

If an announcer said, "Ladies and Gentlemen, please welcome The Vandellas," all three gals would have run onto the stage. Does that answer your question?

[robb_k]

I always believed that Diana was still a Supreme when the name changed to DRATS. If she was, then the name is redundant. If she wasn't, then wasn't it then that she became a soloist with two background singers called The Supremes?

If Diana was still a Supreme, then the better billing would have been The Supremes featuring Diana Ross.

I believe Harold Melvin's group changed its billing for a while to Harold Melvin & the Bluenotes featuring Teddy Pendergrass. But the conflict occured when Teddy wanted more money than the others in the group.

The Supremes were being paid equally in the sixties. Maybe history would have changed in 2000 if, in the sixties, Diana demanded to be paid more than the other two Supremes, since she was usually the only one in the studio recording those Supremes records.
12807
I hate when people butcher languages against logic and make it nonsensical. If they really needed to make the lead singer of each group more prominent in their group name, they should have used : "Diana and The Rest of The Supremes", "Martha and The Rest of The Vandellas", "Smokey and The Rest of The Miracles, except for Claudette" :cool: Something like: "The Afro Blues Quintet Plus 1".

[luke]

Well said. Love it! Levi Stubbs and the other three Tops!

[marv2]

12807
I hate when people butcher languages against logic and make it nonsensical. If they really needed to make the lead singer of each group more prominent in their group name, they should have used : "Diana and The Rest of The Supremes", "Martha and The Rest of The Vandellas", "Smokey and The Rest of The Miracles, except for Claudette" :cool: Something like: "The Afro Blues Quintet Plus 1".

You tell 'em Robb! I agree. hehehehehehehehe! Happy Easter Robb.

[marv2]

Well said. Love it! Levi Stubbs and the other three Tops!

Knowing Levi, he would have never gone for that. He was a real stand up guy.

[luke]

Just fooling per what Robb said!

[RanRan79]

To the last few points, has it been confirmed anywhere that Motown was truly able to command a higher price for a name out front? If so, isn't that all the sense that it needs to make, as in cents? Lol

[marv2]

To the last few points, has it been confirmed anywhere that Motown was truly able to command a higher price for a name out front? If so, isn't that all the sense that it needs to make, as in cents? Lol

If you can explain to me what the group of performers would be doing that would have been different from what they were doing under their original name, then maybe I would buy it. I just do not believe concert promoters and club owners were that gullible.

[luke]

To me it's a ridiculous explanation. In fact I think the opposite could be true

[TomatoTom123]

Hmm. I remember reading something like that, RanRan. I believe it was so they could charge for two different acts and make more money. Instead of "The Miracles" [[with Smokey as lead singer) it was "Smokey Robinson" [[as a solo artist) and "The Miracles" [[as a separate group). Two acts = two times the money? Something like that. Maybe.

Of course the other reason for having the group name with the lead singer's name out front was to prepare the lead singer for a solo career! :)

[144man]

12807
I hate when people butcher languages against logic and make it nonsensical. If they really needed to make the lead singer of each group more prominent in their group name, they should have used : "Diana and The Rest of The Supremes", "Martha and The Rest of The Vandellas", "Smokey and The Rest of The Miracles, except for Claudette" :cool: Something like: "The Afro Blues Quintet Plus 1".

If we're going down that route, I'd prefer "The Supremes including Diana Ross", "The Vandellas including Martha", "The Miracles including Smokey". Even "Four Tops including Levi" would make sense:)

[marv2]

Hmm. I remember reading something like that, RanRan. I believe it was so they could charge for two different acts and make more money. Instead of "The Miracles" [[with Smokey as lead singer) it was "Smokey Robinson" [[as a solo artist) and "The Miracles" [[as a separate group). Two acts = two times the money? Something like that. Maybe.

Of course the other reason for having the group name with the lead singer's name out front was to prepare the lead singer for a solo career! :)

Yeah but they were going to perform as ONE Group, singing THEIR set of popular hit songs. In none of the acts cited here did the group leave the stage and the lead singer performed alone for part of the concert. Going further, there was not a time when the remaining members of the group performed without their designated lead singer. The explanation given by the record company does not hold up well under scrutiny.

[RanRan79]

I guess it's possible that Motown could have negotiated higher fees after the name change. It's hard to imagine, though, that Motown could go to the Copa in early 67 and have the Supremes booked for a certain fee and then turn around later that same year or in early 68 [[whenever they played the Copa again) and convince the place to give them more money than last time because the name had changed. If the higher fee story is true, I can only see it working with never before played venues or venues that the groups hadn't worked in some time.

[RanRan79]

Hmm. I remember reading something like that, RanRan. I believe it was so they could charge for two different acts and make more money. Instead of "The Miracles" [[with Smokey as lead singer) it was "Smokey Robinson" [[as a solo artist) and "The Miracles" [[as a separate group). Two acts = two times the money? Something like that. Maybe.

Of course the other reason for having the group name with the lead singer's name out front was to prepare the lead singer for a solo career! :)

I think the name change was done to prepare one singer for a solo career: Diana Ross. I find it hard to believe that in 1967 Gordy gave even a first thought to Martha Reeves without the Vandellas. And while he may have figured Smokey might outgrow the Miracles at some point, I don't know if Gordy saw Smokey as a star all on his own. Diana Ross' name in front of the Supremes made sense for what Gordy had planned. David Ruffin's name in front of the Tempts made no sense since the group was so generous with sharing leads, although he certainly seemed the most logical choice for a solo career. As has been stated before, Levi in front of the Tops would have been problematic because of the "four". To me the most appropriate name change never even took place: Wanda Rogers and the Marvelettes. After Gladys left Wanda was doing just about all the leads herself. I wonder if Katherine would have minded?

[marv2]

I guess it's possible that Motown could have negotiated higher fees after the name change. It's hard to imagine, though, that Motown could go to the Copa in early 67 and have the Supremes booked for a certain fee and then turn around later that same year or in early 68 [[whenever they played the Copa again) and convince the place to give them more money than last time because the name had changed. If the higher fee story is true, I can only see it working with never before played venues or venues that the groups hadn't worked in some time.

I think the name change/higher fee story was concocted to keep dissension in the groups to a minimum. The story was designed to make the singling out of the lead singer by name acceptable to the other members. After all, it was business right? LOL!

[luke]

Exactly Marv. Silly rationale

[reese]

I think the name change was done to prepare one singer for a solo career: Diana Ross. I find it hard to believe that in 1967 Gordy gave even a first thought to Martha Reeves without the Vandellas. And while he may have figured Smokey might outgrow the Miracles at some point, I don't know if Gordy saw Smokey as a star all on his own. Diana Ross' name in front of the Supremes made sense for what Gordy had planned. David Ruffin's name in front of the Tempts made no sense since the group was so generous with sharing leads, although he certainly seemed the most logical choice for a solo career. As has been stated before, Levi in front of the Tops would have been problematic because of the "four". To me the most appropriate name change never even took place: Wanda Rogers and the Marvelettes. After Gladys left Wanda was doing just about all the leads herself. I wonder if Katherine would have minded?

Of the three, Smokey was actually the first to receive separate billing, back in 1965 on albums. For some reason, this didn't extend to singles until 1967. Once Diana received her billing as well, I assume "Reeves" was added to Martha's so that there was at least some sense of consistency.

But as you wrote, I would suspect in the case of Diana, it was the first step towards preparing her for a solo career, similar to how the billing of Debarge changed to highlight El.

[RanRan79]

I think the name change/higher fee story was concocted to keep dissension in the groups to a minimum. The story was designed to make the singling out of the lead singer by name acceptable to the other members. After all, it was business right? LOL!

Yes it was. Perhaps if everyone had remembered from day one that the music business is indeed a business, there would have been less bitterness from some of the people.

[RanRan79]

Of the three, Smokey was actually the first to receive separate billing, back in 1965 on albums. For some reason, this didn't extend to singles until 1967. Once Diana received her billing as well, I assume "Reeves" was added to Martha's so that there was at least some sense of consistency.

But as you wrote, I would suspect in the case of Diana, it was the first step towards preparing her for a solo career, similar to how the billing of Debarge changed to highlight El.

I didn't realize Smokey was getting separate billing that early Reese. That's interesting.