A question about “Helpless"

[mowest]

It may be obvious to a lot of you but I cannot tell if the instrumental track of “Helpless” is the same for both the Four Tops and Kim Weston versions. Thanks for the clarification.

[Motown Eddie]

It may be obvious to a lot of you but I cannot tell if the instrumental track of “Helpless” is the same for both the Four Tops and Kim Weston versions. Thanks for the clarification.

They're different instrumental tracks for The Four Tops & Kim Weston versions of "Helpless". The Tops did it first [[recorded Sept. 65 and released on Four Tops Second Album) and Kim did the remake [[recorded Jan. 66 and released as a single Feb 66). Also the two backing tracks for "Helpless" are in different keys although they both have a similar feel to them [[coincidentally both versions were produced by Holland/Dozier).

[honest man]

wow Never knew Kim's version was a cover love 4tOPS But Kim 's version is tops for me,cheers.

[bradburger]

The Kim Weston track is the superior one in my opinion!

The Tops version sounds as if the tape might have been speeded up to change the key.

Overall, the Kim Weston backing track is far more polished and powerful, with the final icing on the cake being her vocal.

Cheers

Paul

[TomatoTom123]

I absolutely LOVE both versions! A classic Motown and H-D-H song.

While the Four Tops' version is very good, it's from 1965 and got that weird stereo feel [[as discussed on the thread http://soulfuldetroit.com/showthread.php?18427-The-Motown-Sound-Mixing-question-A-lot-of-compression with huntergettingcaptured ;)) so I think I just about prefer Kim's version. Kim is amazing and it is really just a fantastic song!!

[mowest]

Thanks, everybody, for your responses! I’d have to give Kim the edge on this one.

[woodward]

Thanks, everybody, for your responses! I’d have to give Kim the edge on this one.

I won't disgreee with giving Kim the edge on this one, however, I must admit that I have a fondness for Jackie Moore's version of HELPLESS which was released on the Columbia label in 1980. This version isn't bad either.

[mowest]

Originally Posted by woodward:
"I must admit that I have a fondness for Jackie Moore's version of HELPLESS which was released on the Columbia label in 1980."

Thanks, woodward, for mentioning this version. I had never heard it before. It is quite good. Miss the presence of the Funk Brothers, however; they make any recording sound that much better!

[robb_k]

12738
My observation, based on collecting all Motown records I knew existed from the label's start through the end of their operation in Detroit is that the producers seemed to have an idea of which cuts were going to be released on which formats [[LP or 45) BEFORE they were recorded, or. at least got their final mixes. Given THAT, it seems that there were at least 4 different basic treatments recordings were given: Single "A" side, single "B" side, LP cut, and "Showcase LP cut" [[where all the cuts on the LP needed to be high quality, or in stereo).

So, most single "B" sides were given "throwaway" treatment, in which the instrumental tracks got significantly less attention and work, and were usually less complex, and a lot less worked over to reach a high quality [[near perfection) in the mixing. There probably was that type of discrimination in how much time and effort was put into the recording of the vocals, as well. The recordings that were trying to go for reaching the charts as the "A" side of 45s, and the "leaders" to sell LPs, probably got more takes in their vocals, and more "fixing" to reach the perfect end product, than did the "throways" and "fill-ins" of the "B" sides of singles, and the "fill-in", extra songs on LPs.

To me, Kim's version of "Helpless" got the "A" side treatment, while The Four Tops got the lesser priority background/instrumental treatment. The same seems true of The Messengers' version of "California Soul", the "A" side of their 45, and Edwin Starr & Blinky's duet, whose instrumental was clearly much less complex, and less full sounding. That's also true of the difference between most 45 "A" side versions, and other artists' later "remakes" of that same song.

It was a different situation when producers were trying out different artists on the same song BEFORE deciding which artist or group would get the single release. In those cases, the instrumental tracks were usually the same, and the amount of work on the vocals would have been about equal [[or whatever was necessary).

The Four Tops were the first artists to record many HDH songs that were given 45 "B" side or LP "fill-in" treatment, that were later given to other artists to be "A" sides of 45s, and the instrumentals on those later recordings were more complex, and clearly aimed for a higher, better quality, to be the song that could potentially make the charts. In those situations, we fans might like the Four Tops' version better. But, if so, it is likely to be because The Four Tops had outstanding vocals, despite having the weaker instrumental tracks and mixing effort.

[BigAl]

"Helpless" was my favorite non-single cut on The Four Tops Second Album. It's a solid HDH rocker and I played it a lot but felt it was nothing special compared with the singles which headlined the album.

A few months later, when I heard Kim's version on the radio for the first time, I understood what a truly wonderful song it is. As Robb pointed out, Kim's version had a lot more polish and, at the same time, more guts. I particularly liked the fact that it was slowed down a little from the Tops' version. For a song about heartbreak, a slower tempo is more appropriate. Levi doesn't sound terribly torn up about being helpless; Kim most certainly does!

[Encyclopedia Mack]

I'll have to roll with the Tops version. Levi's power and pleading cannot be denied.

[soulwally]

For anybody who doesn't know, Kim's version has the distinction of being a dancefloor staple for more than 50 years now in the UK, surviving all of Northern Soul's ups and downs, and remaining totally listenable to this day. In fact in my top ten Motown tunes for all time.

[kenneth]

@robb_k, your analysis is fascinating reading!

[thommg]

12738
My observation, based on collecting all Motown records I knew existed from the label's start through the end of their operation in Detroit is that the producers seemed to have an idea of which cuts were going to be released on which formats [[LP or 45) BEFORE they were recorded, or. at least got their final mixes. Given THAT, it seems that there were at least 4 different basic treatments recordings were given: Single "A" side, single "B" side, LP cut, and "Showcase LP cut" [[where all the cuts on the LP needed to be high quality, or in stereo).

Wow. Now that you put this out there, robb_k, it makes perfect sense. I actually think I sensed this while listening to various versions of songs. Nice to have that put into words. Great analysis! Thanks.

[Philles/Motown Gary]

Wow. Now that you put this out there, robb_k, it makes perfect sense. I actually think I sensed this while listening to various versions of songs. Nice to have that put into words. Great analysis! Thanks.
To Thom and Robb: And there were usually three released versions of a Motown hit: 1) the Mono 45 mix which was cut loud and jumped out at you over the airwaves; 2) the Mono album mix which was patterned after the 45 mix but a bit smoother; and 3) the Stereo album mix which could sometimes be exciting, or could otherwise sound weak and weird -- especially if the Stereo version left out important, familiar ingredients like handclaps or strings. Years ago, I remember reading the words of a Motown producer [[I forget which one) who stated that they would literally spend weeks at a time getting a 45 mix just right; they would spend but a couple of hours, however, on the Stereo Mix.

[144man]

Which backing track did the Kim Weston version with the extra verse use?

[thommg]

To Thom and Robb: And there were usually three released versions of a Motown hit: 1) the Mono 45 mix which was cut loud and jumped out at you over the airwaves; 2) the Mono album mix which was patterned after the 45 mix but a bit smoother; and 3) the Stereo album mix which could sometimes be exciting, or could otherwise sound weak and weird -- especially if the Stereo version left out important, familiar ingredients like handclaps or strings. Years ago, I remember reading the words of a Motown producer [[I forget which one) who stated that they would literally spend weeks at a time getting a 45 mix just right; they would spend but a couple of hours, however, on the Stereo Mix.

Gary, I learned rather late that the 45 mix was always different than the album mix. So many times I wondered why I wasn't getting the same underlying boom with the album cut as I got with the single version. I had no idea about mixing back then. Now, I find it absolutely fascinating to hear about this stuff, and have been lucky enough to be in the room when something was mixed so I could watch it happening. Back in the '60s, I guess the 45 mix was the most important of all - everything else was just an album cut!

[Philles/Motown Gary]

Gary, I learned rather late that the 45 mix was always different than the album mix. So many times I wondered why I wasn't getting the same underlying boom with the album cut as I got with the single version. I had no idea about mixing back then. Now, I find it absolutely fascinating to hear about this stuff, and have been lucky enough to be in the room when something was mixed so I could watch it happening. Back in the '60s, I guess the 45 mix was the most important of all - everything else was just an album cut!
Yeah, I know what you mean, Thom. Add to that all of the previously-unreleased alternate takes, out-takes, and remixes. It becomes mind-boggling yet fascinating!

BTW, Thom, get ready to open your wallet again! I'm about to post a new thread on Soulful Detroit regarding a new CD that I'm pretty sure will be right up your alley! [[If not today, i'll do it tomorrow. I'm fighting a lousy cold. Yuck!)

[thommg]

Yeah, I know what you mean, Thom. Add to that all of the previously-unreleased alternate takes, out-takes, and remixes. It becomes mind-boggling yet fascinating!

BTW, Thom, get ready to open your wallet again! I'm about to post a new thread on Soulful Detroit regarding a new CD that I'm pretty sure will be right up your alley! [[If not today, i'll do it tomorrow. I'm fighting a lousy cold. Yuck!)

Sometimes it's hard to remember which version is on which playlist! Thank goodness, for four groups, we got major Singles Collections. Now, does anyone know if the cuts on The Marvelettes: Deliver The Singles collection really the 45 mixes?

Feel better, Gary - but please don't make me wait too long to find out where my money is going! ;)

[Philles/Motown Gary]

Sometimes it's hard to remember which version is on which playlist! Thank goodness, for four groups, we got major Singles Collections. Now, does anyone know if the cuts on The Marvelettes: Deliver The Singles collection really the 45 mixes?

Feel better, Gary - but please don't make me wait too long to find out where my money is going! ;)

Thanks very much for your good wishes, Thom. And, BTW, the new thread on Soulful Detroit is up and waiting for you!

Gary

[kenneth]

Sometimes it's hard to remember which version is on which playlist! Thank goodness, for four groups, we got major Singles Collections. Now, does anyone know if the cuts on The Marvelettes: Deliver The Singles collection really the 45 mixes?



On the box set, it does say that the tracks are the original Mono single mixes.

[thommg]

On the box set, it does say that the tracks are the original Mono single mixes.

That would make 5 groups that we have the original 45 mixes on, then.

[kenneth]

That would make 5 groups that we have the original 45 mixes on, then.

Did you count the Jr. Walker box? "Nothing But Soul" is the name of it, I believe.