Hot Wax/Invictus redux

[soulster]

After that disaster of a comp a couple of years ago, I wonder if anyone has plans to do the singles catalog right.

[RossHolloway]

I would personally like to see Brenda Holloway's unreleased recordings see the light of day from the label.

[TomatoTom123]

I would personally like to see Brenda Holloway's unreleased recordings see the light of day from the label.

Yes
I wonder how much and for how long she actually recorded there...

[[I have read that she went a bit "religious" [[LOL) and stopped recording for fear of going against her religious convictions...)

[soulster]

I'm mainly interested in getting all the correct single versions on CD for once, and having them properly mastered, meaning MONO where the 45 was, getting the correct edits and mixes, and providing the correct length.

[manny]

I have seen some Hot Wax / Invictus compilations in some web stores. Don't remember exactly where but the track-list is enormous [[don't believe that is exhaustive) with tracks by The Jones Girls, Honey Cone, Glass House, General Johnson, Chairmen Of The Board, NY Port Authority, Barrino Brothers, 100 Proof Aged In Soul, 8th Day,... I likes the "soul - rock" flavor in many tracks [["Too Many Cooks" by 100 Proof Aged In Soul) and also the "gospel" flavor [["Touch Me Jesus" by Glass House) in many others.

[144man]

I'm mainly interested in getting all the correct single versions on CD for once, and having them properly mastered, meaning MONO where the 45 was, getting the correct edits and mixes, and providing the correct length.

A lot of our UK singles were stereo. I'm familiar with differing versions of songs e. g. "Westbound Number Nine", but wouldn't have a clue which should be considered the "right" one.

[Sotosound]

A lot of our UK singles were stereo. I'm familiar with differing versions of songs e. g. "Westbound Number Nine", but wouldn't have a clue which should be considered the "right" one.

I would guess that Soulster is after the original US mono mixes.

The UK releases were a bit of a mess, really.

Looking at COTB....

"Give Me Just A Little More Time" was a fold-down of the stereo mix but EQ'd etc. until it sounded rather different and really stood out on AM radio. I actually prefer this to the real US mono mix.

"You've Got Me Dangling On A String" was a straight issue of the stereo mix in stereo and is therefore missing the strings over the intro and also has the verses running in a different order. It's also quite dull sounding for a 7" single.

"Pay To The Piper" was released using the proper mono mix. Ditto "Chairman Of The Board".

"Everything's Tuesday" was a fold-down of the stereo mix but sounds really great nonetheless. Again, I prefer it to the real mono mix, which had strings during the intro. [[We got the mono mix on a re-issue on Inferno records. This was a 3-tracker with "Give Me Just A Little More Time" and "You've Got Me Dangling On A String" also getting their first UK release in their original mono mixes.)

"Working On A Building Called Love" used the correct mono mix.

Was "Elmo James" released as a single in the US? In the UK it was released b/w "Bittersweet". Both tracks appear to be fold-downs.

"I'm On My Way To A Better Place" got UK single release in an edit of the stereo album mix.

"Finders Keepers" was in stereo. [[The same as the USA?) I have, however, come across what seems like a dedicated mono mix.

The Freda Payne singles that I have are all proper mono mixes.

And then there's "Somebody's Been Sleeping" by 100 Proof, wherein the UK got a very creative folded down mash-up edit of the stereo album mix which transformed the track and raised its energy levels and interest by several notches. I can't believe that it wasn't a smash, but that's showbiz.

[144man]

No Hot Wax single made the UK chart. Given the success of Invictus, I never could figure that one out.

[jsmith]

SEE HERE for UK 45 releases ...
http://www.45cat.com/label/invictus

Loads of Invictus / Hot Wax tracks released on CD & LP sets in the UK about 15 years ago ... https://www.amazon.co.uk/Invictus-Club-Classics-Various-Artists/dp/B0000259TS/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1475763781&sr=8-8&keywords=invictus+cd

[jsmith]

AND MORE RECENTLY ....
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Backbeats-Artists-Holland-Creative-Corporation/dp/B0096PHB8Y/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1475764126&sr=8-4&keywords=holland+dozier+harmless

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Holland-Dozier-Rare-Vinyl-VINYL/dp/B00N86M7M2/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1475764188&sr=8-2&keywords=holland+dozier+harmless

[bradburger]

After that disaster of a comp a couple of years ago, I wonder if anyone has plans to do the singles catalog right.

Indeed, a real missed opportunity!

As you say, it needs to be done like Hitsville USA/The Complete Motown Singles sets, in that they follow the U.S releases, and of course use the correct U.S single mixes. And make sure that the book has comprehensive and detailed annotations of the tracks where possible.

[[I've heard that the HDH tape library is in a bit of a mess, but how true that is, is anyone's guess. But If it is the case, then I guess a thorough search and re-cataloguing of it is in order).

I would love another specialist company to have a crack at The Complete Hot Wax/Invictus Singles, doing it the with care and attention it deserves this time.

Cheers

Paul

[Motown Eddie]

Indeed, a real missed opportunity!

As you say, it needs to be done like Hitsville USA/The Complete Motown Singles sets, in that they follow the U.S releases, and of course use the correct U.S single mixes. And make sure that the book has comprehensive and detailed annotations of the tracks where possible.

[[I've heard that the HDH tape library is in a bit of a mess, but how true that is, is anyone's guess. But If it is the case, then I guess a thorough search and re-cataloguing of it is in order).

I would love another specialist company to have a crack at The Complete Hot Wax/Invictus Singles, doing it the with care and attention it deserves this time.

Cheers

Paul

I'd be very surprised if another company decides to do another complete collection of the Invictus/Hot Wax/Music Merchant singles. The Demon/Harmless label [[that did the most recent box set) is a specialist label but I think they cut some corners in trying to keep the purchase price of the set down.

[theboyfromxtown]

I'd be very surprised if another company decides to do another complete collection of the Invictus/Hot Wax/Music Merchant singles. The Demon/Harmless label [[that did the most recent box set) is a specialist label but I think they cut some corners in trying to keep the purchase price of the set down.

Demon did not gain access to the original masters so fans were asked to loan them their vinyl and acetates. Some of us were simply not prepared to do that.

It is my view that the majority of buyers wouldn't even know if that set contained the 45 or album version unless somebody told them.

There is still a lot of stuff in those original vaults. From time to time, Rodney Brown [[NYPA) lets loose a little bit of information.

[soulster]

[QUOTE]Demon did not gain access to the original masters so fans were asked to loan them their vinyl and acetates. Some of us were simply not prepared to do that.

That's very unfortunate. I have no doubt that if it were a rock music project, collectors would be volunteering everything they could.


It is my view that the majority of buyers wouldn't even know if that set contained the 45 or album version unless somebody told them.

Many of the people who buy these collections know the technical details of the material. You can't fool them.

[theboyfromxtown]

I suspect those rock music project collectors haven't had their loaned prized collection pieces returned to the wrong person or simply kept by the compilers, like I have.

I agree that many will know the technical details but the majority will not.

[Sotosound]

Many of the people who buy these collections know the technical details of the material. You can't fool them.

Agreed. They are the main kind of people who would seek out such a collection. People who just want to hear the songs would probably just purchase a hits collection and they'd either sing along or talk over the top rather than actually listen

The issue that I can see is that Hot Wax / Invictus wasn't Motown. It had a smaller roster and was less successful for a much shorter period of time.

Moreover, many of my contemporaries would probably place the music under the generic heading of "Motown", which for many in the UK is a catch-all term for soul music from the late 60s and early 70s which encompasses everything from Diana Ross and Jimmy Ruffin to the Chi Lites and The Stylistics.

Sad but true. [[Also frustrating but true.)

[theboyfromxtown]

One day, I will give my singles to someone to record. It does frustrate me as well but there are not many fans that really care. This thread is indicative of that.

On the Invictus/HDH Facebook threads, there are hardly any posts.

[TomatoTom123]

The issue that I can see is that Hot Wax / Invictus wasn't Motown. It had a smaller roster and was less successful for a much shorter period of time.

Many of my contemporaries would probably place the music under the generic heading of "Motown", which for many in the UK is a catch-all term for soul music from the late 60s and early 70s which encompasses everything from Diana Ross and Jimmy Ruffin to The Chi-Lites and The Stylistics.

I'd say that Hot Wax/Invictus stuff is not too dissimilar from Motown, especially since a lot of it was written and produced by H-D-H and backed by The Funk Brothers

Even Norman Whitfield's "Whitfield" label was quite Motown-y, with him writing and producing for lot of former Motown acts like The Undisputed Truth, Rose Royce [[a backing band at Motown) and Junior Walker

Oh yes, and Jackie Wilson was the most Motown-y non-Motown artist, ever! All his early material was written by Berry Gordy, some of his stuff was recorded at Motown and featured The Andantes on backing vocals

The Chi-Lites and The Stylistics, however, would not come under Motown in any sense, really

The only connections [[very weak, weak connections) I can think of:
The Chi-Lites were signed to the same label as Jackie Wilson [[Brunswick) and they covered quite a few Motown songs for their first album
The Stylistics' songs "You Are Everything" and "Stop, Look, Listen [[To Your Heart)" were UK hits when covered by Diana Ross and Marvin Gaye

[soulster]

Moreover, many of my contemporaries would probably place the music under the generic heading of "Motown", which for many in the UK is a catch-all term for soul music from the late 60s and early 70s which encompasses everything from Diana Ross and Jimmy Ruffin to the Chi Lites and The Stylistics.

Sad but true. [[Also frustrating but true.)

Ahhhh...so that's why we get people calling all 60s music "Motown". They just don't know any better. But, they don't call any of the Stax/Volt music "Motown". Strange.

I wish I could make our U.K. friends understand that Motown wasn't the end-all, be-all of soul music. Motown went through a humongous period of success 1964-1966, but by 1967, other forms of soul music took over. Motown just became part of the landscape at that point.

[TomatoTom123]

"I wish I could bake all our UK friends"

Well, that seems a bit harsh! LOL!

[soulster]

"I wish I could bake all our UK friends"

Well, that seems a bit harsh! LOL! I fixed it. LOL!

[Sotosound]

I'd say that Hot Wax/Invictus stuff is not too dissimilar from Motown, especially since a lot of it was written and produced by H-D-H and backed by The Funk Brothers

Even Norman Whitfield's "Whitfield" label was quite Motown-y, with him writing and producing for lot of former Motown acts like The Undisputed Truth, Rose Royce [[a backing band at Motown) and Junior Walker

Oh yes, and Jackie Wilson was the most Motown-y non-Motown artist, ever! All his early material was written by Berry Gordy, some of his stuff was recorded at Motown and featured The Andantes on backing vocals

The Chi-Lites and The Stylistics, however, would not come under Motown in any sense, really

The only connections I can think of:
The Chi-Lites were signed to the same label as Jackie Wilson [[Brunswick) and they covered quite a few Motown songs for their first album
The Stylistics' songs "You Are Everything" and "Stop, Look, Listen [[To Your Heart)" were UK hits when covered by Diana Ross and Marvin Gaye

I wouldn't go looking for comparisons. It doesn't really run that deep. When we hold a house party I often get asked for "some Motown" and when I ask what, they come up with something Philly or whatever. That's why this forum can be great. At least people here know what Motown really is.

Looking at "Motown refugees", what's interesting is that, if anyone, it was Norman Whitfield's sound which survived best after leaving Motown, especially that "Just My Imagination" groove, which found its way onto a number or Rose Royce ballads, largely due to the tempo and the drummer keeping time with brushed cymbals and rimshots. With other material he went far funkier than at Motown and with "Is It Love You're After" he created something both modern and distinctive that ended up being sampled by S'Express. One of my all time favourites is the intro to the 12" mix of "R R Express" by Rose Royce. I lose interest a bit after the intro, but I can play that intro over and over again. I just wish that the locomotive sounded its horn a couple more times!

IMHO, apart from the first two COTB hits , I believe that HDH actually ploughed a slightly different furrow musically with Invictus and Hot Wax that went beyond what they did at Motown. For instance, "Band Of Gold" doesn't sound like Motown to me. Instead, it's more modern, more impactful and far more to the point than their classic Motown output. Their melodic construction did start to get a bit same-y, however, leading to some singles with great intros but only so-so verses and choruses. "Cherish What Is Dear To You" and "You Brought The Joy" come to mind. Both great singles, but lacking that killer punch after a killer intro.

[theboyfromxtown]

If you like this type of music, you ought to get the album by Mozella - The Brian Holland Sessions


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5-R_O9f8ds

[Motown Eddie]

Demon did not gain access to the original masters so fans were asked to loan them their vinyl and acetates. Some of us were simply not prepared to do that.

It is my view that the majority of buyers wouldn't even know if that set contained the 45 or album version unless somebody told them.

There is still a lot of stuff in those original vaults. From time to time, Rodney Brown [[NYPA) lets loose a little bit of information.

That's very disappointing. It also brings up another issue; if HDH were to strike up a deal with another company to do another 'complete singles' collection, would we want to spend the money to buy it after seeing what happened with the Demon/Harmless set? Speaking for me, I wouldn't want to.

[soulster]

That's very disappointing. It also brings up another issue; if HDH were to strike up a deal with another company to do another 'complete singles' collection, would we want to spend the money to buy it after seeing what happened with the Demon/Harmless set? Speaking for me, I wouldn't want to.

The only way I would buy it is if they worked with oldies specialists in the industry. I've already got a few names in mind like Aaron Kannowski, and Bill Inglot [[who helped get Motown's vaults in order back in the late 80s).

[splanky]

I wish I could make our U.K. friends understand that Motown wasn't the end-all, be-all of soul music. Motown just became part of the landscape at that point.

Unfortunately there are also plenty of Americans who also think of Motown
in those terms. I don't believe in "end-all, be-all" anythings but a lot of folks
do. P-funk was not the be all of funk, BB King not the be all of blues, and even
as big he became, Bob Marley was not the be-all, end all of Reggae music,
though probably 80-90 0/0 of rockers here in this country would tell you
he was. The rest would say Peter Tosh and they'd still be wrong......
Anyway, my own personal favorite artist ever signed to HDH's labels was
the severely underated Laura Lee. I don't know how her stuff was recorded
but I would killed to be in a group playing behind her in the studio or live
onstage...

[theboyfromxtown]

The only way I would buy it is if they worked with oldies specialists in the industry. I've already got a few names in mind like Aaron Kannowski, and Bill Inglot [[who helped get Motown's vaults in order back in the late 80s).

When was the last time America issued anything from the HDH stable?

[Motown Eddie]

When was the last time America issued anything from the HDH stable?

The most recent release of anything from the Invictus/Hot Wax labels in the US was the "Heaven Must Have Sent You: The Holland Dozier Holland Story" comp on Hip-O Select in 2005. The collection features the big hits from Motown, some of the Invictus/Hot Wax hits, the hits from their return to Motown in the mid '70s, and some of the notable cover versions of their songs. But it's true that the bulk of the reissues of the HDH catalog have come from England.

[theboyfromxtown]

The most recent release of anything from the Invictus/Hot Wax labels in the US was the "Heaven Must Have Sent You: The Holland Dozier Holland Story" comp on Hip-O Select in 2005. The collection features the big hits from Motown, some of the Invictus/Hot Wax hits, the hits from their return to Motown in the mid '70s, and some of the notable cover versions of their songs. But it's true that the bulk of the reissues of the HDH catalog have come from England.

and Japan...

[soulster]

When was the last time America issued anything from the HDH stable?

The Rhino, and Buddah labels, but that was back in the 90s.

[soulster]

The most recent release of anything from the Invictus/Hot Wax labels in the US was the "Heaven Must Have Sent You: The Holland Dozier Holland Story" comp on Hip-O Select in 2005. The collection features the big hits from Motown, some of the Invictus/Hot Wax hits, the hits from their return to Motown in the mid '70s, and some of the notable cover versions of their songs. But it's true that the bulk of the reissues of the HDH catalog have come from England.

This, I did not know.

But, again, I want the hit single mixes/edits.

[theboyfromxtown]

The sets that were released in the States over 20 years ago were put together with Rodney Brown of NYPA. They contained some alternative mixes of released material. That was because Rodney was and still is able to access the HDH vaults.

[soulster]

The sets that were released in the States over 20 years ago were put together with Rodney Brown of NYPA. They contained some alternative mixes of released material. That was because Rodney was and still is able to access the HDH vaults.

The proper way to do a historical document of a record company's catalog is to release all of the vintage material as it was in its hit single form, not do a bunch of remixes and alternate takes out of the gate. That makes the hard-core collector who already has everything happy, but we are dealing with a label that has had a poor representation of it's released catalog in the digital age. That is what is needed. Note that even Stax and Motown released their hit singles. Every major Motown and Atlantic artist has a singles collection. Scores of rock bands from the 60s have released singles collections, with more to come. Sly & The Family Stone have singles collections. Phil Spector's artists have singles collections. HotWax/Invictus needs one too, and someone needs to do it right! If things have to be take from 45s, there are people who can do that with very convincing results. If a master tape is missing, scour the world for production copies.

A quality, accurate Hot Wax/Invictus singles comp can be done. It just takes someone willing to actually do it!

And, while we're at it, the Philadelphia International labels need a real singles box, too.

And, lastly, I know the U.K. has released a lot of Hot Wax/Invictus and PIR material that the U.S. won't, but that music needs to be released from the U.S. perspective because that is the country of origin. Even with The Beatles & The Rolling Stones, many of the singles were different in the U.S. than in the U.K.. With The Beatles, we got the official U.K. versions because that was the country of origin.

[Sotosound]

I often believe that the UK ought to be a good source for old master tapes but I do wonder what happened to master tapes when distribution deals changed, such as Invictus going from EMI to CBS/Columbia. Did the master tapes get moved or did they remain with EMI as per Motown when it went over to RCA.

Also, Neil Rushton clearly managed to get copies of masters of some single mixes for his vinyl re-issues from the early 80s on Inferno Records. What happened to those?

It wouldn't surprise me either if copies of some missing Frankie Valli and The Four Seasons tapes could be found somewhere deep in the Polygram vaults of Universal Music Group.

[theboyfromxtown]

I often believe that the UK ought to be a good source for old master tapes but I do wonder what happened to master tapes when distribution deals changed, such as Invictus going from EMI to CBS/Columbia. Did the master tapes get moved or did they remain with EMI as per Motown when it went over to RCA.

Also, Neil Rushton clearly managed to get copies of masters of some single mixes for his vinyl re-issues from the early 80s on Inferno Records. What happened to those?

It wouldn't surprise me either if copies of some missing Frankie Valli and The Four Seasons tapes could be found somewhere deep in the Polygram vaults of Universal Music Group.

Those EMI tapes are still available. It simply needs for the compiler to alert the person responsible for obtaining the relevant recordings. For example, those Motown EP collections of recent used the British tapes for those EP's.

[soulster]

Those EMI tapes are still available. It simply needs for the compiler to alert the person responsible for obtaining the relevant recordings. For example, those Motown EP collections of recent used the British tapes for those EP's.

Exactly. The majority of the time, it just means that the reissue people just don't LOOK.

[theboyfromxtown]

In all honesty, the people that are doing the checking, the fetching and the liaising are "kids" and they really dont know the music at all. They weren't even born when it came out!

Compilers will often tear their hair out at times.....particularly when the kids try to take the easy way out.

[soulster]

In all honesty, the people that are doing the checking, the fetching and the liaising are "kids" and they really dont know the music at all. They weren't even born when it came out!

Compilers will often tear their hair out at times.....particularly when the kids try to take the easy way out. That's why you get those who are knowledgeable about the music, like the ones I mentioned earlier. Vintage material is their game.

And, there are a few "kids" who do know their stuff. They are serious collectors, and study recorded history.

[TomatoTom123]

That's why you get those who are knowledgeable about the music, like the ones I mentioned earlier. Vintage material is their game.

And, there are a few "kids" who do know their stuff. They are serious collectors, and study recorded history.

I am a so-called "kid" but apart from loving all this old music to bits I don't think I could create a singles compilation to save my life, LOL!

[soulster]

I am a so-called "kid" but apart from loving all this old music to bits I don't think I could create a singles compilation to save my life, LOL!

I do all the time. It's fun.

[TomatoTom123]

I do all the time. It's fun.

Do you!? LOL
I have never owned a vinyl record before, would that impair my ability to do it? LOL! :)

[soulster]

Do you!? LOL
I have never owned a vinyl record before, would that impair my ability to do it? LOL! :)
Probably!

You're younger than I thought! Aren't most SDF members like over 50?

[theboyfromxtown]

That's why you get those who are knowledgeable about the music, like the ones I mentioned earlier. Vintage material is their game.

And, there are a few "kids" who do know their stuff. They are serious collectors, and study recorded history.

I don't dispute that but they dont appear to work in the industry.

Soulster - have you been involved in the preparation of music cds for the commercial market?

[soulster]

I don't dispute that but they dont appear to work in the industry.


If you work in any capacity, you are in the industry, which includes the interns.


Soulster - have you been involved in the preparation of music cds for the commercial market?

Ahhh, here's the part where you attempt to discredit my words. I have been an unpaid consultant for named reissue producers.

[TomatoTom123]

Probably!

You're younger than I thought! Aren't most SDF members like over 50?

Yes, I suppose I am an exception, hehe!

[theboyfromxtown]

Soulster

I do not want to discredit anyone.