Reflections: Florence Ballard?

[imakicola]

REFLECTIONS! So from what I've read on Wikipedia, as well as a few biographies, that was the last track recorded by Florence.
However, I've heard a lot about how Florence missed these sessions and Marlene Barrow of the Andantes filled in for her. And listening to the instrumental, it sounds a lot like Mary Wilson...and Marlene Barrow.
Does anyone have any sources or comments about this? Is it true that Florence Ballard did indeed NOT record this?

Thanks :)

[marv2]

REFLECTIONS! So from what I've read on Wikipedia, as well as a few biographies, that was the last track recorded by Florence.
However, I've heard a lot about how Florence missed these sessions and Marlene Barrow of the Andantes filled in for her. And listening to the instrumental, it sounds a lot like Mary Wilson...and Marlene Barrow.
Does anyone have any sources or comments about this? Is it true that Florence Ballard did indeed NOT record this?

Thanks :)

It is Florence on that song with Mary and Diane. The "#1's" CD makes that very clear.

[bradsupremes]

Don't be surprised if Marlene is on the song and Flo isn't. I personally believe it's Mary and Marlene.

Remember, the vocals were recorded May 9, 1967. The Hollywood Bowl show was a little over a week prior and before that Marlene was subbing for Florence in New Orleans and other various cities. And of course the April meeting the ladies had at Berry Gordy's essentially telling Florence she was done. She had missed sessions and live performances before. It really shouldn't be a surprised if she wasn't around for this session or those gigs after the meeting at Gordy's. Now she was back for the Copa gig and the rest of May and June, but we know it was just to have time to buy Cindy out of her contract.

Flo's last recording session was "In And Out Of Love" and "It's Going All The Way [[To True Love)" done on June 12, 1967.

[imakicola]

Yeah and when I listen to Reflections the voice sounds nothing like Florence's at all...like, at ALL to me! But the info is conflicting.

Brad, what you're saying makes a lot of sense!

[marv2]

Don't be surprised if Marlene is on the song and Flo isn't. I personally believe it's Mary and Marlene.

Remember, the vocals were recorded May 9, 1967. The Hollywood Bowl show was a little over a week prior and before that Marlene was subbing for Florence in New Orleans and other various cities. And of course the April meeting the ladies had at Berry Gordy's essentially telling Florence she was done. She had missed sessions and live performances before. It really shouldn't be a surprised if she wasn't around for this session or those gigs after the meeting at Gordy's. Now she was back for the Copa gig and the rest of May and June, but we know it was just to have time to buy Cindy out of her contract.

Flo's last recording session was "In And Out Of Love" and "It's Going All The Way [[To True Love)" done on June 12, 1967.

I believe it is Florence, but another thought I am having. Why wasn't Cindy Birdsong used on the recording?

[johnny_raven]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2ehRsv68Bg

I always thought it was Florence too. But after listening to this, I'm sure it isn't. Listen to the backgrounds. There are several places where you can hear their individual voices. The higher voice is Mary, but the lower voice is definitely NOT Florence. I don't know what Marlene's voice sounds like, so I can't comment on who it is singing with Mary.

[blackguy69]

I always thought if Flo was singing on it, then she must've have been holding back. I believe it's Marlene and Mary. Plus I remember when someone posted the BBC recordings of that session a few years back, you heard Mary and Diana in the studio but no Flo

[luke]

Wasn't Florence very clear to Peter Benjamin that she sang on Reflections?

[blackguy69]

Flo also said that Cindy was prepping to be a Supreme a year before she was fired but we know that wasn't true

[sup_fan]

my understanding of Cindy's involvement prior to officially joining was the Hollywood Bowl and that's it. a few rehearsals and all but no recording dates.

I know there's been a lot of talk about what records Flo isn't and is on. I know You Can't Hurry Love is questioned too. IMO it is Flo given the nasality that comes through on the background "love don't come eeeeeasssy." Maybe i'm wrong, maybe i'm right. who knows. Like any singer, Flo could and would adjust her tone based on the recording. listen to how delicately she sings her lead lines in Breathtaking Guy. then listen to her rip it apart on Long Gone Lover. Now listen to how she sings her parts to Bring It On Home on the Sam Cooke lp and then her going to town on Good News.

[marv2]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2ehRsv68Bg

I always thought it was Florence too. But after listening to this, I'm sure it isn't. Listen to the backgrounds. There are several places where you can hear their individual voices. The higher voice is Mary, but the lower voice is definitely NOT Florence. I don't know what Marlene's voice sounds like, so I can't comment on who it is singing with Mary.


Mary Wilson is the lower voice on the released version. It is very clear on the "#1's" CD.

[marv2]

Wasn't Florence very clear to Peter Benjamin that she sang on Reflections?

Yes that is the case.

[blackguy69]

Yes that is the case. but it doesn't make it true

[blackguy69]

Flo could have adjusted her vocals, but given the last 3 prior singles where you knew it was her vocals, this sounded nothing like her. And since she never sang reflections live, we will never know.

[ejluther]

The higher voice is Mary, but the lower voice is definitely NOT Florence.
Wouldn't Mary usually be the lower part and Flo/whoever be the higher?

[luke]

If it's clearly stated in the # 1s and Florence said so and Florence was very honest then it's clear to me.

[floyjoy678]

Florence was back a few days before this recording when they appeared on Ed Sullivan. It does sound a bit like Mary on the top harmony which wasn't unusual during this time. Flo's voice had changed dramatically around this time and couldn't belt out those high notes as well as she could a couple of years prior.

My opinion? Sounds like two Mary's. Flo is on You Can't Hurry Love. It's just one of those songs she was instructed to hold back on.

[marv2]

but it doesn't make it true

No speculations here make anything true either.......

[luke]

I think I hear the Blissoms on Where Sid Our Love Go or at least e Blissom. A source told me Flo was subbing for a Marvelettte the day Where did our love Go recorded or she may have been shopping at Macy's. and u can hear Fanita on one of the Baby Baby's !!

[sup_fan]

I think I hear the Blissoms on Where Sid Our Love Go or at least e Blissom. A source told me Flo was subbing for a Marvelettte the day Where did our love Go recorded or she may have been shopping at Macy's. and u can hear Fanita on one of the Baby Baby's !!

hahaha

the sad thing is, other than some that were wildly and blatantly obvious [[like Love Child), Berry has been proven right. on record, it was mostly about Diana. for better or worse. love it or hate it. we all have adored You Can't Hurry, Reflections, Stop and the others and just merrily assumed it was F and M. in some cases it turns out it wasn't but we're only learning that now due to the digging int he vaults Andy and others have done.

[marv2]

I think I hear the Blissoms on Where Sid Our Love Go or at least e Blissom. A source told me Flo was subbing for a Marvelettte the day Where did our love Go recorded or she may have been shopping at Macy's. and u can hear Fanita on one of the Baby Baby's !!


AH HA! LOL!!!!!! hehehehehehehehehehe.............................. .......

[marv2]

hahaha

the sad thing is, other than some that were wildly and blatantly obvious [[like Love Child), Berry has been proven right. on record, it was mostly about Diana. for better or worse. love it or hate it. we all have adored You Can't Hurry, Reflections, Stop and the others and just merrily assumed it was F and M. in some cases it turns out it wasn't but we're only learning that now due to the digging int he vaults Andy and others have done.

But it was Mary and Florence on the records you mentioned. If they were not in the group, I would not have even paid attention to "The Supremes".

[luke]

Correct. When I heard my brother's record of Let Me Go the Right way. What grabbed my attention the most was the music and Florence hitting those high notes at the end of the record. I was hooked!

[lakeside]

Who out there knows what Marlene Barrow sounded like? I know she was in the Andante's, but, they always sounded rather homogenized to me [[as good as they were doing backgrounds). My vote is for Fanita! Yep, she's definitely on one of those baby baby 's!

[bradsupremes]

If it's clearly stated in the # 1s and Florence said so and Florence was very honest then it's clear to me.

Revelations can be found...

The fact is Florence missed recording sessions. If we are to believe Florence was all the songs then just what songs did she miss when she skipped recording sessions?

[marv2]

Correct. When I heard my brother's record of Let Me Go the Right way. What grabbed my attention the most was the music and Florence hitting those high notes at the end of the record. I was hooked!

"Where Did Our Love Go?" made me look forward to the next Supremes record mostly because of Mary's singing.

[marv2]

Who out there knows what Marlene Barrow sounded like? I know she was in the Andante's, but, they always sounded rather homogenized to me [[as good as they were doing backgrounds). My vote is for Fanita! Yep, she's definitely on one of those baby baby 's!


Couldn't have been Fanita. She was out to lunch that day.

[lakeside]

Couldn't have been Fanita. She was out to lunch that day.

Hmmmmmm......Darlene?

[sup_fan]

The songs so far in question are

You Can't Hurry
Reflections
Stop - not sure if the released Stop is M, F and the andantes or just Andantes.
I Hear a Symphony - rumor is that it's not only M and F on I Hear A Symphony.
In and Out Of Love.
Love Is Here - M and F are doing backup but the Ahhhs and other parts are the Andantes.

assuming there's truth to this, that's a significant amount of the output in 65 - 67. plus many, many album tracks. and the entire Xmas lp. Some of these might be Flo skipping out on recording. or just the fact they didn't use M and F.

[carole cucumber]

The plot thickens if you listen to:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2ehRsv68Bg

but begin at 2:41 and listen to the peculiar rolling of the 'r' in the words 'trust' and 'right' at 2:45 & 2:46.......

And then proceed....

[carole cucumber]

As quickly as posssible to:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xcYSWUvA8I

but begin at 0:25 and listen to the lower voice until 0:32.

[luke]

Rumor has it Diana is not on you Keep me Hnagin on or Itching. It's Syreeta or Telma Hopkins

[marv2]

Revelations can be found...

The fact is Florence missed recording sessions. If we are to believe Florence was all the songs then just what songs did she miss when she skipped recording sessions?


She missed the bad ones.

[marv2]

Hmmmmmm......Darlene?

Naw, Darlene does not sing that high. Darlene sings it rough like Tina Turner. LOL!

[marv2]

As quickly as posssible to:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xcYSWUvA8I

but begin at 0:25 and listen to the lower voice until 0:32.

If you ever listen to "Ain't Necessarily So" from the GIT Soundtrack, it sounds just like Florence in the background.

[luke]

It's kind of like when Motown said she was sloppy on stage in July 1967 and all the Vegas reviews were raves for the entire group.

[marv2]

It's kind of like when Motown said she was sloppy on stage in July 1967 and all the Vegas reviews were raves for the entire group.

They said and did all kinds of stuff to destroy her.

[sup_fan]

actually on You Can't Hurry Love it's Mary and Delcina Wilson :rolleyes:

[marv2]

actually on You Can't Hurry Love it's Mary and Delcina Wilson :rolleyes:

Couldn't have been Delcina. She and Reggie were at the beauty shop in lower Manhattan.

[jobeterob]

There are people at universal that have said the group was essentially over in 1965 - after that it was just Diana and any 3 or 3 background singers

[marv2]

There are people at universal that have said the group was essentially over in 1965 - after that it was just Diana and any 3 or 3 background singers

Whoever told you that is crazy.

[captainjames]

Now that is probably closer to truth than any of us realized at the time. Berry was looking to lift Diana from the group most likely around that time. If he had in my opinion I believe Florence would have eventually still left the group. Flo had her way and that was that. At any rate back on topic: Florence may have recorded Reflections but I don't believe its the version that was released. Florence said she recorded it but, I have heard Mary say that Florence was incorrect. In 2016 I am like "Who Cares". All I know is that there were three girls back in the day that rocked America and took them by storm and I was here to witness it. I was part of history. One thing I do know for sure and that the lead voice was Diana Ross and she is still singing today.



There are people at universal that have said the group was essentially over in 1965 - after that it was just Diana and any 3 or 3 background singers

[honest man]

They said and did all kinds of stuff to destroy her.She desroyed herself ego and missing work -recordings-performances] and attacking her lead singer as you state in another thread,also throwing drinks at her employer ,i don't know how she lasted so long.in the group.there were hundreds of commited girls waiting to step into her size 5 stillettos.cheers.

[imakicola]

Oddly Florence DOES sound like the voice in "ain't necessarily so" from GIT! Strange. Very strange.

[detmotownguy]

"Where Did Our Love Go?" made me look forward to the next Supremes record mostly because of Mary's singing.

Man I wish Mary did the lead on that song .

[detmotownguy]

Couldn't have been Delcina. She and Reggie were at the beauty shop in lower Manhattan.
Stop Marv!

[detmotownguy]

Don't be surprised if Marlene is on the song and Flo isn't. I personally believe it's Mary and Marlene.

Remember, the vocals were recorded May 9, 1967. The Hollywood Bowl show was a little over a week prior and before that Marlene was subbing for Florence in New Orleans and other various cities. And of course the April meeting the ladies had at Berry Gordy's essentially telling Florence she was done. She had missed sessions and live performances before. It really shouldn't be a surprised if she wasn't around for this session or those gigs after the meeting at Gordy's. Now she was back for the Copa gig and the rest of May and June, but we know it was just to have time to buy Cindy out of her contract.

Flo's last recording session was "In And Out Of Love" and "It's Going All The Way [[To True Love)" done on June 12, 1967.

I never understood if Flo was fired in April after the big meeting why was she able to record after she was fired? The timing always seemed a little bit grey to me.

[johnny_raven]

I never understood if Flo was fired in April after the big meeting why was she able to record after she was fired? The timing always seemed a little bit grey to me.

I thought Flo was put on probation in April, but not fired until late Jun ...

[detmotownguy]

I thought Flo was put on probation in April, but not fired until late Jun ...

thanks maybe that's it !

[sup_fan]

i think the problem was it was determined at the April meeting that Flo would no longer be in the group. however Cindy couldn't get released in time to formally join the group so since there were dates scheduled that they couldn't get out of, they had to bring Flo back in

Cindy had a recording contract via the Bluebelles with Atlantic Records. not that they were a huge group for the label but they did have a contract which Motown would have to get her released from. I'm not sure exactly when they start approaching Cindy about joining and rehearsing. but she was signed with another label at the time

[marv2]

Oddly Florence DOES sound like the voice in "ain't necessarily so" from GIT! Strange. Very strange.

I always heard that in that one particular song for GIT. It wasn't on the Soundtrack album, just in the broadcast as if they had recorded it prior to Florence leaving the group. When she sings "David, David my oh my"! You know it is her.

[marv2]

Man I wish Mary did the lead on that song .

It would have been just as great.

[marv2]

I never understood if Flo was fired in April after the big meeting why was she able to record after she was fired? The timing always seemed a little bit grey to me.

She was not officially fired until July of that year. The "meeting" was like a formal final warning to her.

[detmotownguy]

i think the problem was it was determined at the April meeting that Flo would no longer be in the group. however Cindy couldn't get released in time to formally join the group so since there were dates scheduled that they couldn't get out of, they had to bring Flo back in

Cindy had a recording contract via the Bluebelles with Atlantic Records. not that they were a huge group for the label but they did have a contract which Motown would have to get her released from. I'm not sure exactly when they start approaching Cindy about joining and rehearsing. but she was signed with another label at the time

So Flo had to record and perform live until Cindy was onboard? Thats rough duty!

[marv2]

So Flo had to record and perform live until Cindy was onboard? Thats rough duty!

Yep LOL!!! Then when Cindy was onboard and Flo was thrown out of the group, they told her she can never say that she was ever a member of the Supremes even though she started the group! Now ain't that some shit?

[luke]

Sure is! And in JRTs last Diana book he says Florence might have put on Cindys dress and it was too small for her hence the stomach poking out stuff!

[captainjames]

Thank GOD HDH and Berry Gordy made the right choice.................................in my opinion and a million other buyers.

[jobeterob]

You mean in ignoring all the girls except Diana after 1965?

[RossHolloway]

In TCMS 1967, page 64, the liner notes to Reflection states, "Although Florence Ballard took part in the sessions for these two tracks, by the time the record was released she had been let go."

Cindy Birdsong is also quoted in the liner notes, "We were the same dress size, same shoe size, and we wore the same stye of wigs."

[jobeterob]

So then Flo's size must not have been a really big issue and it must really have been attitude

[marv2]

Sure is! And in JRTs last Diana book he says Florence might have put on Cindys dress and it was too small for her hence the stomach poking out stuff!

Yeah but when you look at pictures of Cindy during that time, she was built similar to Flo. Both were stacked! The weight thing played on Florence's confidence. They'd never do that with men.

[marv2]

Thank GOD HDH and Berry Gordy made the right choice.................................in my opinion and a million other buyers.

God had very little to do with all that. He will sort it though.............LOL!

[marv2]

In TCMS 1967, page 64, the liner notes to Reflection states, "Although Florence Ballard took part in the sessions for these two tracks, by the time the record was released she had been let go."

Cindy Birdsong is also quoted in the liner notes, "We were the same dress size, same shoe size, and we wore the same stye of wigs."

So in other words, claiming that Florence Ballard was overweight was all BS!

[midnightman]

I thought that was Marlene on Reflections tbh... when was Reflections recorded? May, right? I think Flo was on probation then... things were coming to an end as far as the original Supremes lineup goes around this time. But hey it is what it is.

[rod_rick]

Oddly Florence DOES sound like the voice in "ain't necessarily so" from GIT! Strange. Very strange.

At first listen it does sound like Flo on "Aint Necessarily So" but when you listen closely you know it's Cindy because Flo's soprano was much heavier in sound than Cindy and Flow would have added a bit more sass to her vocal. It's recordings like this that I believe is those reason Cindy was chosen to be a Supreme along with her looks and killer personality.

[marv2]

At first listen it does sound like Flo on "Aint Necessarily So" but when you listen closely you know it's Cindy because Flo's soprano was much heavier in sound than Cindy and Flow would have added a bit more sass to her vocal. It's recordings like this that I believe is those reason Cindy was chosen to be a Supreme along with her looks and killer personality.


Cindy's voice sounds nothing like Florence's. That is Florence's voice on that track "Ain't Necessarily So" which is probably why it was the only number from the TV special left off the soundtrack album.

[rod_rick]

Don't think so Marv. That soprano voice is too light and thin to be Florence voice. Florence soprano was heavy even when she try to hold back her voice had weight. But we can agree to disagree on this :)

[sup_fan]

it is not Flo on Ain't Necessarily. The Porgy and Bess numbers were part of a larger medley entitled "Let's Do It" where D, M and C do an intro paying tribute to some of Broadway's great writers then M & C do REmember, Diana does Little Girl Blue, group does Porgy and then the group does an ending. it's absolutely Cindy on the earlier parts of this medley and Ain't.

Why this was all cut, I can only guess at. most certainly I would have preferred this full medley to one of those idiotic skits or that never-ending Fiddler medley by the Temps.

[imakicola]

I guess the whole truly true and truthful truth will always be a mystery!!

[marv2]

I guess the whole truly true and truthful truth will always be a mystery!!

Berry Gordy knows it is Florence on that track.

[captainjames]

No real mystery .........................ask Mary today who is singing background with her on Reflections.

[bradsupremes]

She'll say Florence. But the real answer is in the tapes.

[captainjames]

No she won't
especially on that song she wont.



She'll say Florence. But the real answer is in the tapes.

[ejluther]

No real mystery .........................ask Mary today who is singing background with her on Reflections.
I saw Mary on TV singing "Love Child" once [[BBC?) and prefacing it by talking to the crowd about singing it with Diana and Florence...so, yeah.

[captainjames]

There is no way Mary could have told you Florence is on Love Child unless she misunderstood the question.



I saw Mary on TV singing "Love Child" once [[BBC?) and prefacing it by talking to the crowd about singing it with Diana and Florence...so, yeah.

[ejluther]

It's possible I'm misremembering the performance, of course - it was a big oldies-type show with lots of different acts so she was on and off quickly [[as everyone was)...I wish I could remember more details but I do remember that part of it because it really surprised me - perhaps it was edited for broadcast and a song was cut out? I clearly remember her saying something about singing this one with Diana and Flo and then it was "Love Child"...I mean no disrespect, it was just a memory and a post or two in this thread made me think of it...

[captainjames]

Thats odd because Mary is not even on Love Child.

[honest man]

She'll say Florence. But the real answer is in the tapes.So Right i would n't believe a word from Mary Wilson mouth no more.

[honest man]

Thats odd because Mary is not even on Love Child. Correct but she would say she's in the mix something like that.She carries no credibility in my opinion.

[captainjames]

Oh OK I get what you guys are saying. The only thing we can be sure is that Diana is singing lead on those records.

[thommg]

Thats odd because Mary is not even on Love Child.

Mary may not be on the recorded version of Love Child but she did sing it a few hundred times in performance. Her saying she sang it doesn't mean the recording.

[marv2]

Mary may not be on the recorded version of Love Child but she did sing it a few hundred times in performance. Her saying she sang it doesn't mean the recording.

She also sang it probably a half dozen times on television with the Supremes to help promote it and sell it!

[captainjames]

No No No don't get it twisted, that's like asking if you are on "Let's Get It On".



Mary may not be on the recorded version of Love Child but she did sing it a few hundred times in performance. Her saying she sang it doesn't mean the recording.

[detmotownguy]

Mary may not be on the recorded version of Love Child but she did sing it a few hundred times in performance. Her saying she sang it doesn't mean the recording.

.....and speaking of performing love child I saw Mary sing it live in Lake Tahoe with no backgrounds in the late 80s and it was as good as the original recording. as a joke she even saying just the background versus.

[marv2]

.....and speaking of performing love child I saw Mary sing it live in Lake Tahoe with no backgrounds in the late 80s and it was as good as the original recording. as a joke she even saying just the background versus.

Mary does a splendid job with "Love Child" and sings it probably as much as Diane sings "I Will Survive" Gloria Gaynor's song.........

[honest man]

Mary does a splendid job with "Love Child" and sings it probably as much as Diane sings "I Will Survive" Gloria Gaynor's song.........No no no no how many times do you have to be told it is not aMary Wilson song she covers Diana Ross songs as she is not known more than a back up singer,maybe if she had not been knocking round with married men ,Tom Jones etc she may have sung on the songs,though i hear Florence on Love Child .heeee he

[captainjames]

This is just plain stupid hate....
Diana has never said she was on I will Survive or Carry On. If Mary has said she was on Love Child [[which by the way she has never said that to me) that is just not true. Diana made it a million $$ comeback recording and Mary was no where to be found. This is just plain crazy.

[captainjames]

Also if Mary felt she sounded better on lead with Love Child then release it as a single and lets see where e go with that. Truth be known the reason the girls probably never received a Grammy was they could not figure out who the heck was in the background. Justice finally won out when they decided to just give it to Diana as a Lifetime Achievement Award.

[marv2]

This is just plain stupid hate....
Diana has never said she was on I will Survive or Carry On. If Mary has said she was on Love Child [[which by the way she has never said that to me) that is just not true. Diana made it a million $$ comeback recording and Mary was no where to be found. This is just plain crazy.

You must have forgot [[after all, next month, October 2016 will mark the 30th Anniversary of the release of Mary's epic book, "Dreamgirl, My Life As A Supreme"!). that Mary Wilson was the FIRST and ONLY one to tell us that she and Cindy Birdsong were not on the Love Child recording in that extremely successful book! So to sit here now and pretend that Mary has said that she was on that record is disingenuous on your part!

Go back and re-read your copy of her book. Note the publishing date in the front too.

[marv2]

Also if Mary felt she sounded better on lead with Love Child then release it as a single and lets see where e go with that. Truth be known the reason the girls probably never received a Grammy was they could not figure out who the heck was in the background. Justice finally won out when they decided to just give it to Diana as a Lifetime Achievement Award.

The keyword is "GIVE". Diane was never able to WIN a Grammy in competition all those years. They felt sorry for the ole girl and GAVE her one before she rides out into the sunset! LOL!

[captainjames]

Right and the girls got nothing


The keyword is "GIVE". Diane was never able to WIN a Grammy in competition all those years. They felt sorry for the ole girl and GAVE her one before she rides out into the sunset! LOL!

[marv2]

Right and the girls got nothing

Why are you pretending that they were not a group? Anything Diane was able to accomplish, was just an extension of what the Supremes accomplished. There would not have been a "Diana Ross" if it were not for "The Supremes". Her career is dead now anyway, so there's nothing to argue about here.

[captainjames]

The last 3 times I saw Ms. Ross she was selling out to audiences and very much alive. Berry would never have signed the girls if it wasn't for Diana. If you ever see Motown the Musical you will see that it surrounds Diana and Berry love for her. Mary has never had a hit record as her as the lead or as a solo. She is the one riding on the success of the Supremes. That is the only reason people even know who she was part of. I am not pretending anything that Diana was part of but Diana became the group. She became bigger than the group. There was going to be a Diana Ross because that is what Berry Gordy wanted for his company. She still reign.
Diana was the Queen of Motown.....ask Valerie Simpson, HDH or anyone at Motown during that time.



Why are you pretending that they were not a group? Anything Diane was able to accomplish, was just an extension of what the Supremes accomplished. There would not have been a "Diana Ross" if it were not for "The Supremes". Her career is dead now anyway, so there's nothing to argue about here.

[imakicola]

It doesn't matter! They started as a group. But the background drama of it all undermined it and now it's all anyone talks about re: the supremes.

[captainjames]

The fact is that Florence s not on Reflections and Mary is questionable. The lead voice we know.

[marv2]

The fact is that Florence s not on Reflections and Mary is questionable. The lead voice we know.

It is not a fact that Florence Ballard is not on "Reflections". Mary has said that Flo is on that record.

[marv2]

Although I can hear Florence on that record, it says here she recorded it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reflections_[[The_Supremes_song)

[marv2]

See, Mary says right here on page 204 of "Dreamgirl, My Life As A Supreme" that Florence is on the record "Reflections". She should know, she was there with her in recording studio when they recorded it:

12042

[marv2]

Captain James you've been listening to those "mysterious voices" in your head again and for all these years if you thought that Mary Wilson and Florence Ballard were not singing on the song "Reflections"! LOL!!!!

[bradsupremes]

See, Mary says right here on page 204 of "Dreamgirl, My Life As A Supreme" that Florence is on the record "Reflections". She should know, she was there with her in recording studio when they recorded it.

Mary likes to protect Flo, the legacy and the image of the group. Mary will not publicly admit Florence is not on those songs. The fact is Flo missed recording sessions and she is not on several recordings. That's a fact. It's one of the reasons why she was fired. Florence not being on "Reflections" fits into the timeline of events beginning in April with Florence being sent home, Diana and Mary duo show, Marlene Barrow being flown in for the rest of the shows, the meeting at Gordy's mansion, Cindy's first appearance at the Hollywood Bowl, and then Florence's reappearance on Ed Sullivan. Listen to those vocals. It's pretty telling.

[captainjames]

yes you are right ----
its a good record but Flo is not there and Mary may not of been or overdub. Wow that was a long time ago.


Mary likes to protect Flo, the legacy and the image of the group. Mary will not publicly admit Florence is not on those songs. The fact is Flo missed recording sessions and she is not on several recordings. That's a fact. It's one of the reasons why she was fired. Florence not being on "Reflections" fits into the timeline of events beginning in April with Florence being sent home, Diana and Mary duo show, Marlene Barrow being flown in for the rest of the shows, the meeting at Gordy's mansion, Cindy's first appearance at the Hollywood Bowl, and then Florence's reappearance on Ed Sullivan. Listen to those vocals. It's pretty telling.

[marv2]

Mary likes to protect Flo, the legacy and the image of the group. Mary will not publicly admit Florence is not on those songs. The fact is Flo missed recording sessions and she is not on several recordings. That's a fact. It's one of the reasons why she was fired. Florence not being on "Reflections" fits into the timeline of events beginning in April with Florence being sent home, Diana and Mary duo show, Marlene Barrow being flown in for the rest of the shows, the meeting at Gordy's mansion, Cindy's first appearance at the Hollywood Bowl, and then Florence's reappearance on Ed Sullivan. Listen to those vocals. It's pretty telling.

Yeah and you know what? All that is nice,but the fact remains we were not there. Mary Wilson was there. Heck at that time I was only 7 years old and could have care less about what was going on up in Detroit with the Supremes LOL! I have to go with Mary said and my own ears.

She just did not miss THAT recording session. I hear her on that song.

[marv2]

yes you are right ----
its a good record but Flo is not there and Mary may not of been or overdub. Wow that was a long time ago.

He is not right, Mary Wilson one of the Original Supremes is right. She was right there when all of this stuff happened. Mary and Florence are singing together on "Reflections". You must have really listen to the song. For like the at least 5th time since I've been a member of Soulful Detroit:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2ehRsv68Bg

[marv2]

and remember Captain James......."cause nothing's real" LOL! Listen to my ladies sounding so good on the background in the clip above!

Strange you believed Mary when she said that neither she or Cindy Birdsong were on "Love Child" or "Someday We'll Be Together", but with "Reflections" all of sudden she doesn't know what she is talking about? GTFO! LOL!!!

[luke]

Lolol. Good point. Selective reporting

[imakicola]

It is extremely clear to me, in the recording that the higher voice in the back in Reflections is *exactly* **IDENTICAL** to the higher voice in the back of Love Child.

[floyjoy678]

Florence was back in the group for at least a week by the time reflections was recorded. There's no reason why they wouldn't have used her in the studio. She was also on probation at this time, so if she was a no show wouldn't have she been fired then? Also don't agree with her not being on You can't hurry love. I hear her underneath Mary.

With all that being said I do think the backgrounds on Reflections sound horrible.

[captainjames]

Mary and Flo are not on Reflections.

[captainjames]

Berry did Berry around this time.
1967 was about Diana ..............................

[nomis]

Flo's termination wasnt so cut and dried..Berry had the most successful group in the U.S. and he was scared to change the formula for fear of public reaction..yes Cindy was waiting in the wings but that was "just in case"..the night before she was fired there was no sign of trouble - Flo,Mary Diana and many female Gordy family members had a night of celebrations..Flo was hung over when she arrived to prep for her final show and was enraged by the sight of Cindys costume [[which she wasnt meant to see)..and by her own admission - "I had me some drinks" and went on stage drunk...as for the recording of "Reflections" by 1967 HDH were using extensive over dub sessions and Mary Flo and Diana would record their parts many times seperatley on different dates its also important to note that when the Andantes were added to "The Happening" Flos complaint to Gordy on using them caused him to delete their vocals from the release as I stated above - Gordy didnt want to meddle with the winning formula..if Flo had listened to Berrys sister and gone on stage for the next performance after he told her she was thru Gordy wouldnt have dared throw off stage as he threatened to do..sadly Flo had more power and leverage in the situation than she knew - she didnt help herself turning up to the final meeting being despondent and not talking when it came to the crunch the exhaustion of their work schedule had defeated her

[daviddh]

Reflections was also going to be the last single by the supremes ,with the departure Florence and HDH.motown felt the supremes would never recover. it was decided to bring Flo back issue the blue hits lp and a farewell tour.diana bucked and didn't want to leave yet and the group was saved ....but with Cindy getting the job.

[daviddh]

I cant tell who sang backing vocals on Reflections.its one of my favorites, I am assuming it is Mary and Florence but I honestly cant tell. I remember a Motown insider stating it was Florence on this and that it was recorded around the same time as a few others. I think I hear MW but not Florence but ....who knows for sure....at this point...I don't care,
some people dig their own grave and I am thinking that is what Flo did . usually I cant hear the Mary and Flo harmony but I can not tell with this.still a favorite song of mine.

[franjoy56]

>it does not matter if flo is or is not on reflections because that record was the first recording labeled diana ross and the supremes and flo wanted no part of that billing. What does matter is that flo and mary back diana on 10 number ones since ychl has been proven to be flo on t track. The world knew the original supremes has diana mary and flo and florences vocals from meet the supremes all t way thru the rogers and hart lp and t greatest hits vol 2 are well represented and thts all that matters. After flo left the sound no longer had that distinct sound we so remrmber on records like come see about me baby love back in my arms again, nothing but heartaches, love is like an itching in my heart, just to name a few like diana said florence had this incredible voice and thats what mattered no matter what happened behind closed doors!

[franjoy56]

If you want to hear mary and flo blend listen to the country western album the more hits album, the rogers and hart album,, the liverpool sessions and the go go sessions.

[franjoy56]

And lastly but not least the supremes at the copa and the supremes live at the roostertail from the symphony expanded set. Flo is heard in all her glory.

[marv2]

If you want to hear mary and flo blend listen to the country western album the more hits album, the rogers and hart album,, the liverpool sessions and the go go sessions.

The harmonies on "A Breathtaking Guy" are heavenly...................

[nomis]

Flo is glorious on the live "Anyone Who Had A heart" included on the "Meet The Supremes" expanded edition

[imakicola]

Didn't the andantes do the Christmas album?

[captainjames]

On the newly released singles collection of 2011, Florence was only on as lead, in two unused tracks, one of the songs was released in 1999; Mary Wilson was not recorded on any of the album track sessions. It was reissued in 1999 in CD form with four bonus tracks, including a cover of "Just a Lonely Christmas" [[originally recorded by Harvey Fuqua's group The Moonglows), and a Florence Ballard-led version of "Silent Night". The Andantes has been recently acknowledged that they recorded the background vocals. Hope that helps.

[marv2]

If it's clearly stated in the # 1s and Florence said so and Florence was very honest then it's clear to me.

That's Florence Ballard on that record with Mary and Diane. Those two sources, plus Mary Wilson makes three and that is enough for me along with my own two ears! Thanks Luke!

[imakicola]

Yeah and you know what? All that is nice,but the fact remains we were not there. Mary Wilson was there. Heck at that time I was only 7 years old and could have care less about what was going on up in Detroit with the Supremes LOL! I have to go with Mary said and my own ears.

She just did not miss THAT recording session. I hear her on that song.

DOnt forget just because Florence could have been there doesn't mean they used her vocals for the released version

[luke]

Didn't a lot of people believe Valerie was singing in place of Tammi? Tina Britt and Jackie Ross sounded a lot like Diana. They may well have done leads at times.

[vgalindo]

Didn't a lot of people believe Valerie was singing in place of Tammi? Tina Britt and Jackie Ross sounded a lot like Diana. They may well have done leads at times.
Sorry to say but nobody sounds like the great Diana Ross!!

[marv2]

DOnt forget just because Florence could have been there doesn't mean they used her vocals for the released version

Florence , Mary, Universal Records all say that it is she that is on the record.....case closed as far as I am concerned!

[marv2]

Didn't a lot of people believe Valerie was singing in place of Tammi? Tina Britt and Jackie Ross sounded a lot like Diana. They may well have done leads at times.

Even Madonna and Lisa Lisa & Cult Jam sounded like Diana Ross.

[TomatoTom123]

Even Madonna and Lisa Lisa & Cult Jam sounded like Diana Ross.

Hehe, just listened to some Lisa Lisa and you're kinda right, she does sound like her

[bradsupremes]

Multi-track tapes say otherwise.

[TomatoTom123]

Multi-track tapes say otherwise.

Erm, hehe, what does that mean? [[Sorry, my musical knowledge is, uh, limited)

[bradsupremes]

Erm, hehe, what does that mean? [[Sorry, my musical knowledge is, uh, limited)

It means the tapes that recorded the vocals say something else.

[floyjoy678]

I'm still not completely buying it. And I'm usually open to the idea of the andantes filling in but I just don't hear it. People will hear things differently.

The voices in the background for Reflections sound worn out and tired which is how DMF sounded around this time.

[blackguy69]

I'm still not completely buying it. And I'm usually open to the idea of the andantes filling in but I just don't hear it. People will hear things differently.

The voices in the background for Reflections sound worn out and tired which is how DMF sounded around this time.
Tired is one thing but it doesn't even sound like flo. we're not talking all three adantes, just Marlene. Why is it so hard to believe Flo missed this session. It wouldn't be the first.

[jobeterob]

The Universal elite say the group ended in 1966 and after that it's lucky if Mary Florence or Cindy are on any recording

The producers didn't care

They didn't make the Christmas lp before that

They didn't make the released version of stop in the name of love

This is why it's very hard now to have them recognized unless Diana insists

[floyjoy678]

The timeline is what gets me. I'd believe it if Reflections was recorded in April or early may but it was done a week after Florence returned to the group. Say she screwed up and missed the session wouldnt she have been gone then and there?

Jobeterob Florence is on stop in the name of love with the andantes, the released version. Louvaine Demps has mentioned this twice. Don't know whether Mary is or not but I'm sure she's in those mix of voices somewhere.

[bradsupremes]

The timeline is what gets me. I'd believe it if Reflections was recorded in April or early may but it was done a week after Florence returned to the group. Say she screwed up and missed the session wouldnt she have been gone then and there?

Jobeterob Florence is on stop in the name of love with the andantes, the released version. Louvaine Demps has mentioned this twice. Don't know whether Mary is or not but I'm sure she's in those mix of voices somewhere.

Vocals were recorded May 9th. Hollywood Bowl was just a mere 10 days earlier on April 29th with Cindy and just a few days before that they were in New Orleans with Marlene standing in. There's a lot going on in those few weeks between Flo to Marlene to Cindy, back to Flo. Is it not hard to believe Flo was never told about the session or was asked not to show up given the difficulty of the previous weeks? I think the fact there are questions about who is singing with Mary on this track is a clear sign that something is unusual. Mary is clearly on this track singing the alto part. The timbre of the soprano doesn't match Florence and we know Florence's voice was getting rough during this time. The soprano on "Reflections" is light and pure. Take a listen to some of the Funny Girl tracks like "Sadie Sadie" or listen to the intro on PJ's "T.L.C." Compare it to the soprano on "Reflections." It's Marlene Barrow on all of those.

[captainjames]

Add on top of what you just said to that fact that Berry wanted Diana out of that group and was willing to prove to her and the world that he could put anyone in the background to sing behind her and still get record sales. I know to some that it sounds like Mary and Flo but sorry Berry would be the one to say record with whoever is here.


Vocals were recorded May 9th. Hollywood Bowl was just a mere 10 days earlier on April 29th with Cindy and just a few days before that they were in New Orleans with Marlene standing in. There's a lot going on in those few weeks between Flo to Marlene to Cindy, back to Flo. Is it not hard to believe Flo was never told about the session or was asked not to show up given the difficulty of the previous weeks? I think the fact there are questions about who is singing with Mary on this track is a clear sign that something is unusual. Mary is clearly on this track singing the alto part. The timbre of the soprano doesn't match Florence and we know Florence's voice was getting rough during this time. The soprano on "Reflections" is light and pure. Take a listen to some of the Funny Girl tracks like "Sadie Sadie" or listen to the intro on PJ's "T.L.C." Compare it to the soprano on "Reflections." It's Marlene Barrow on all of those.

[floyjoy678]

You can study a voice but there are times when someone could be having an off day and do not sound like themselves. I used to be in a local vocal group and we actually made several recordings years ago and I listened to them the other day for the first time in years and there were a couple of songs where I did not sound like myself in the backup vocals. I have a distinct baritone voice that almost always bleeds through other voices but on a couple of songs I just did not hear myself even though I knew I was there. Just going by first hand experience.

Now I took another listen to the backgrounds on Reflections and it almost sounds to me as if it's Mary doing both the lower and high harmony in a few spots.

[nomis]

to quote Diana herself -[[on Flo's leaving) - "although Cindy was a Supreme she wasnt offiically we were waiting to see if Blondie would come back.." this remark is very telling -nothing in this period was set in stone..I strongly believe that although they had problems Diana and Berry wanted Flo to say at that final meeting - "Hey I screwed up but I dont want to leave.." but sadly Flo barely spoke and her Mother did most of the talking for her which really wasnt a wise move...yes Diana was sick of Flo's behaviour but Berry knew he had to keep Diana happy..not any girl singer could come in and replace Flo we all know of Diana's attitude and behaviour to other female singers in the 1960s..it was hardly cordial..the pressure the group was under by this point was imense - 10 number one singles Diana wanted Flo to fight for her place in the group but Flo was too tired,confused and a drinking problem..which makes Marys final vote & comments understandable "But she dosent want to be with us"..its all so sad if she had recieved proper counselling for her teenage rape things might have worked out very differently...

[luke]

And Florence was sick of Diana's behavior. I dont really believe Diana wanted Flo back in. When Cindy rehearsed with them that day it was said Diana was giddy with happiness. As upset as Flo was with the way she was kicked out she was also relieved to not have to deal with all the drama/Diana/Berry and later said she really couldn't see herself returning to be treated that way again.

[nomis]

Diana loved Blondie and Flo loved Diana they were sisters who lived a magical fantastic journey they conquered the world and like sisters they would snap at each other their itennary left no time for many fights they were The Supremes dignity,poise grace was everything..Flo and Berry certainly became bitter enemies..hell the day before Flo was fired Diana planned the birthday celebration for her now were talking Miss Diana Ross here thats an act of a loving sister..Diana was genuiely distressed,concerned and worried at Flos disintergration..thats why Motown pulled off a complete PR coup by announcing Flowas leaving for family reasons and tghe press bought it it wasnt until Flo filed the lawsuit against Gordy,Ross,Wilson & Birdsong in 1970 was it report of conflict between the Supremes and only the black press reported it..we cannot paint Diana as a villan -she wasnt she was temperamental,difficult demanding yes but revelation of disharmony for the supremes only really errupted with the publication of "DreamGirl" then "Call Her Miss Ross" & "all that glittered" each had an agenda to paint Diana as a villan for every minute of backstage dramas there was hours of brillance on stage the sisters making magic and thats what these ladies have to be remembered for...

[Roberta75]

Diana loved Blondie and Flo loved Diana they were sisters who lived a magical fantastic journey they conquered the world and like sisters they would snap at each other their itennary left no time for many fights they were The Supremes dignity,poise grace was everything..Flo and Berry certainly became bitter enemies..hell the day before Flo was fired Diana planned the birthday celebration for her now were talking Miss Diana Ross here thats an act of a loving sister..Diana was genuiely distressed,concerned and worried at Flos disintergration..thats why Motown pulled off a complete PR coup by announcing Flowas leaving for family reasons and tghe press bought it it wasnt until Flo filed the lawsuit against Gordy,Ross,Wilson & Birdsong in 1970 was it report of conflict between the Supremes and only the black press reported it..we cannot paint Diana as a villan -she wasnt she was temperamental,difficult demanding yes but revelation of disharmony for the supremes only really errupted with the publication of "DreamGirl" then "Call Her Miss Ross" & "all that glittered" each had an agenda to paint Diana as a villan for every minute of backstage dramas there was hours of brillance on stage the sisters making magic and thats what these ladies have to be remembered for...

Yes I agree but Luke loves to revel in negative stories about Diane Ross. My personal opinion is he doesnt like her and loves to stir the hornets nest. Again this is only my opinionn.

Roberta

[nomis]

nice to hear from you Roberta..,regards

[Roberta75]

nice to hear from you Roberta..,regards

Nice to see you back dear.

fondly,

Roberta

[Ollie9]

Diana loved Blondie and Flo loved Diana they were sisters who lived a magical fantastic journey they conquered the world and like sisters they would snap at each other their itennary left no time for many fights they were The Supremes dignity,poise grace was everything..Flo and Berry certainly became bitter enemies..hell the day before Flo was fired Diana planned the birthday celebration for her now were talking Miss Diana Ross here thats an act of a loving sister..Diana was genuiely distressed,concerned and worried at Flos disintergration..thats why Motown pulled off a complete PR coup by announcing Flowas leaving for family reasons and tghe press bought it it wasnt until Flo filed the lawsuit against Gordy,Ross,Wilson & Birdsong in 1970 was it report of conflict between the Supremes and only the black press reported it..we cannot paint Diana as a villan -she wasnt she was temperamental,difficult demanding yes but revelation of disharmony for the supremes only really errupted with the publication of "DreamGirl" then "Call Her Miss Ross" & "all that glittered" each had an agenda to paint Diana as a villan for every minute of backstage dramas there was hours of brillance on stage the sisters making magic and thats what these ladies have to be remembered for...

According to author Mark Ribowskys book on the Supremes it was Mary not Diana that was responsible for Flo's birhday bash. Diana did not want a birthday party for Flo as she felt it was hypocritical considering what had recently gone down.
Diana did eventually attend, but with a bit of arm twisting from Mary........................According to the book.

[sansradio]

Ribowsky's book was so factually inaccurate [[not to mention poorly edited) that I take everything in it with an entire case of Morton's Iodized.

[blackguy69]

I will say Ribowskys book was very inaccurate but he wasn't the only one that said Flo's bday party was Mary's idea not Diana

[captainjames]

As far as Flo's birthday party, I am not sure Mary orchestrated it but, I am certain Diana felt it was wrong to pretend that everything was find about this.

[midnightman]

The Supremes were pretty complex people. I think what we think we know about them, their own words tell us we don't know them as well as we think. I definitely think Diana wanted Flo to stay in the group. I also think Mary was just plain tired of trying to get Flo to sober up. So the both of them were pretty much like "let's move on" since Flo didn't really say much and when she did, they caught her at her lowest ebb, which was just unfortunate. It's tragic, really. Those three were magic together.