Supremes Comment starts Facebook Firestorm!!

[Jimi LaLumia]

I placed this on Facebook yesterday and all hell broke loose!..lol..

""The Supremes were the Trojan horse that made black faces acceptable in white living rooms in the 60's. I know because I grew up in one of those racist households where black faces on the tv were not welcome. Until the numerous Ed Sullivan appearances and the non threatening image and style of the girls changed all that. The fact that Americas most successful group of the sixties was female and black was a bigger game changer than anything The Beatles ever did and was a major factor of the 'pop culture ' component of the civil rights movement."

[sansradio]

I placed this on Facebook yesterday and all hell broke loose!..lol..

""The Supremes were the Trojan horse that made black faces acceptable in white living rooms in the 60's. I know because I grew up in one of those racist households where black faces on the tv were not welcome. Until the numerous Ed Sullivan appearances and the non threatening image and style of the girls changed all that. The fact that Americas most successful group of the sixties was female and black was a bigger game changer than anything The Beatles ever did and was a major factor of the 'pop culture ' component of the civil rights movement."

Well, specifically what kind of pushback did you get? Sounds like a reasonable post to me.

[soulster]

Except for the part about The Beatles, Jimi is on the money! Both groups were equally instrumental in changing certain things in American culture.

[jobeterob]

Perhaps some rockers don't like the suggestion.

[Jimi LaLumia]

my follow up post said....." Supremes constantly are shuffled off as a girl group with a lot of hits usually by straight white male rock critics. Thank goodness no one pays attention to them anymore. And I do love The Beatles but I do not love the disparity."................which further fanned the flames

[soulster]

Perhaps some rockers don't like the suggestion.

I don't agree. The Beatles did nothing to help break down racial barriers. That wasn't what they were about. They broke down other barriers. They helped bridge the generation gap, and helped change the culture.

[soulster]

my follow up post said....."Supremes constantly are shuffled off as a girl group with a lot of hits usually by straight white male rock critics. Thank goodness no one pays attention to them anymore. And I do love The Beatles but I do not love the disparity."................which further fanned the flames

Aw c'mon! Critics like The Supremes too. But, they don't separate it from the rest of Motown. And, what the hell does being straight have to do with anything?

[Jimi LaLumia]

rock and pop critics in the 1960's [[I was around) especially were hateful to The Supremes, as 'white bread', 'sell outs', 'too show biz and they were made fun of, not saluted, in the musical "Hair' with the song' White Boys", where they were all squeezed into one ridiculous dress... not until Ross did "Lady Sings The Blues' did any of the girls get respect from Rolling Stone etc and I think the "Touch' album got a fair review.. but I lived through this as did many here.. I know what I saw, heard and read

[jobeterob]

The issue wasn't the Beatles; it was the supremes

White rock critics didn't like them or motown much

Ross Gaye Robinson wonder and the temptations kind of survived but outside of "us" on here, I'm not sure who in the public recognizes much else of it

[soulster]

The issue wasn't the Beatles; it was the supremes

White rock critics didn't like them or motown much

Ross Gaye Robinson wonder and the temptations kind of survived but outside of "us" on here, I'm not sure who in the public recognizes much else of it

This is true about neither Motown or The Beatles getting respect. It makes me wonder why you all always do this pissing contest when it comes to The Supremes.

That being said, there is one area that The Supremes, or most other 60s Motown group can't hold a candle to: almost none of them, save Marvin Gaye, Smokey Robinson, Jr. Walker, and Stevie Wonder, played any instruments, and rarely, if ever, wrote their songs. The Beatles were a huge influence in this respect. They inspired legions of youth to start playing and forming their own bands. This is a fact. It's not Motown groups' fault, though. It's just the way Motown ran things. The company did all the writing, playing, and engineering. All these kids did was sing.

The critics had more respect for the Stax people, and Atlantic artists because they wrote, some of them played, and the music was organic [[grittier). And, dammit! Sister Aretha did it all!

[marv2]

The issue wasn't the Beatles; it was the supremes

White rock critics didn't like them or motown much

Ross Gaye Robinson wonder and the temptations kind of survived but outside of "us" on here, I'm not sure who in the public recognizes much else of it


Strange! The Beatles loved Motown, they also loved the Supremes. The Supremes survive through Mary Wilson. They were just inducted, along with Smokey Robinson into the R&B Hall of Fame a little over a week ago. "White Rock critics" should stick to Rock if they cannot appreciate R&B and Hip Hop. I could careless about what they think or like. I like what I like and that is all that is important to me!

[captainjames]

I was there too and I remember the the things I heard which I will not repeat but I think the turnaround came with the "Love Chid" album and the "TCB" special.



rock and pop critics in the 1960's [[I was around) especially were hateful to The Supremes, as 'white bread', 'sell outs', 'too show biz and they were made fun of, not saluted, in the musical "Hair' with the song' White Boys", where they were all squeezed into one ridiculous dress... not until Ross did "Lady Sings The Blues' did any of the girls get respect from Rolling Stone etc and I think the "Touch' album got a fair review.. but I lived through this as did many here.. I know what I saw, heard and read

[midnightman]

That's odd people are saying rock critics hated Motown, rock MUSICIANS were the opposite, especially with the number of Marvin, Miracles, Tempts, MR&Vandellas, Marvelettes and Supremes covers.

If we're being technical, Marvin and the Miracles were probably the most influential Motown acts as far as rock musicians of that time period [['60s) were concerned.

[Jimi LaLumia]

i didn't say rock critics hated Motown, I said they hated The Supremes.. Stevie and Marvin started getting respect at the end of the 60's and the beginning of the 70's..their material changed..and besides, The Black Panthers had emerged... good!!!

[Jimi LaLumia]

The Beatles themselves were hard core Motown fans , they did Motown covers, and had tours with Mary Wells and then Brenda Holloway.. The Stones were crazy for Motown as well, Keith talks about it A LOT in his "My Life" auto bio.. it was the snooty nose in the air rock press that were dismissive over the acts they thought weren't 'black enough'.. a determination made by middle to upper class white boys safely in their college dorms...as if!..lol

[marv2]

The Beatles themselves were hard core Motown fans , they did Motown covers, and had tours with Mary Wells and then Brenda Holloway.. The Stones were crazy for Motown as well, Keith talks about it A LOT in his "My Life" auto bio.. it was the snooty nose in the air rock press that were dismissive over the acts they thought weren't 'black enough'.. a determination made by middle to upper class white boys safely in their college dorms...as if!..lol

I guarantee you it was mostly the American Rock critics/press that had the problem with the Supremes.

[midnightman]

i didn't say rock critics hated Motown, I said they hated The Supremes.. Stevie and Marvin started getting respect at the end of the 60's and the beginning of the 70's..their material changed..and besides, The Black Panthers had emerged... good!!!

Let's face it though, rock critics hated girl groups in general. Besides from probably the Shangri-Las and the Ronettes [[not sure about Martha and The Vandellas), but girl groups were never ever a favorite with those misogynists anyway.

[Jimi LaLumia]

but the massive success of The Supremes which none of the other girl [[or boy) groups came near, constantly challenging The Beatles at the top of he Hot 100 singles chart and at times the top of the Billboard Albums chart, probably drove their resentment into the overdrive that was evident at the time

[marv2]

but the massive success of the supremes which none of the other girl [[or boy) groups came near, constantly challenging the beatles at the top of he hot 100 singles chart and at times the top of the billboard albums chart, probably drove their resentment into the overdrive that was evident at the time

bingo!!!!!

[edafan]

but the massive success of The Supremes which none of the other girl [[or boy) groups came near, constantly challenging The Beatles at the top of he Hot 100 singles chart and at times the top of the Billboard Albums chart, probably drove their resentment into the overdrive that was evident at the time
There is something else people don't realize. I grew up in the fifties. In Boston, we had 1 radio station which played "black music" and it was hard to find. Also I used to go to a record store, and sit with piles of demos, and pick the ones I liked by ear, by groups such as the Ivories. I also picked by ear early records by Carole King. But Elvis, Beatles, Motown on Ed Sullivan is what propelled them into main stream America. Sometimes late night dj's would play the "Bad" records they couldn't play in the daytime like Love For Sale, Sixty Minute Man, etc
edafan

[midnightman]

but the massive success of The Supremes which none of the other girl [[or boy) groups came near, constantly challenging The Beatles at the top of he Hot 100 singles chart and at times the top of the Billboard Albums chart, probably drove their resentment into the overdrive that was evident at the time

No lies there. I think Whitney Houston got the same vitriol [[and Diana when she went solo) so good points! Remember, also, both the Supremes and Whitney Houston set records and yeah, I see what you mean... thanks for clarifying, I definitely see your full points now.

[jobeterob]

Beyoncé gets it now too.

[midnightman]

True. I forgot her.

[marv2]

So what you're saying is that Rock Critics do not like popular Black Female Artists? Did like Tina Turner? Was Tina considered more "Rock"? What about Brittany, Madonna and Lady Gaga?

[Jimi LaLumia]

the popular phrase was not black enough.. rock critics liked black performers who were black enough, i.e. stereotype grunting sweating sexually overcharged, which James Brown and Tina Turner of that era fit the mold of the 'white boy fantasy' of blackness..or, as Mary Wilson recently said, they 'knew their place'..black artists who were refined, elegant and worldly were a threat! harking back to the slave owners who killed slaves if they found out they could read or tried to become educated.. they wanted them to stay 'black enough'.. Berry Gordy had different ideasTHANK GOD!

[Jimi LaLumia]

now the comeback Tina Turner who i saw at the Ritz in the early 80's had enough of 'black enough' and returned as the elegant creature who conquered the 80's after signing with Capitol Records and owning the charts in a 60's Motown kind of way

[luke]

Some of the Rock critics begrudgingly came to praise Donna Summer eventually as she also wrote a lot of her stuff.

[soulster]

the popular phrase was not black enough.. rock critics liked black performers who were black enough, i.e. stereotype grunting sweating sexually overcharged, which James Brown and Tina Turner of that era fit the mold of the 'white boy fantasy' of blackness..or, as Mary Wilson recently said, they 'knew their place'..black artists who were refined, elegant and worldly were a threat! harking back to the slave owners who killed slaves if they found out they could read or tried to become educated.. they wanted them to stay 'black enough'.. Berry Gordy had different ideasTHANK GOD!

What about Black people who rejected "prim and proper" Black artists because they viewed them as "trying to be White"? But, what it does point to is that most music critics have historically been White, and most are from lily-white backgrounds, whose only exposure to Blacks seem to be from the records they listen to. Prominent rock critic Robert Christgau even admitted at some point that he wasn't even familiar with Black music in the 60s and 70s.

And, as I recall, the rock critics always liked Donna Summer.

[marv2]

What about Black people who rejected "prim and proper" Black artists because they viewed them as "trying to be White"? But, what it does point to is that most music critics have historically been White, and most are from lily-white backgrounds, whose only exposure to Blacks seem to be from the records they listen to. Prominent rock critic Robert Christgau even admitted at some point that he wasn't even familiar with Black music in the 60s and 70s.

And, as I recall, the rock critics always liked Donna Summer.

They didn't take Donna Summer seriously until she made "Hot Stuff" that featured a rock guitar.

[sansradio]

Some of the Rock critics begrudgingly came to praise Donna Summer eventually as she also wrote a lot of her stuff.

Donna, IIRC, was also the first African-American artist to be nominated for a rock Grammy [[for her track "Protection.") Ironic that Black artists are considered alien in an art form largely created by Black people. In the words of John Cougar, ain't that America?

[detmotownguy]

Hi Marv, how do you think they classified Donna Summers music? soul-pop-rock?
Thanks and hope all is well. Been crazy bill will catch up with you soon take care.

[marv2]

Hi Marv, how do you think they classified Donna Summers music? soul-pop-rock?
Thanks and hope all is well. Been crazy bill will catch up with you soon take care.

I'm fine and thanks. They classified her music as DISCO. She was given the title, the Queen of Disco!

[detmotownguy]

I saw Donna summer perform in the late 90s maybe around 2000 at Pine Knob. most everybody there came for her disco catalog but she was singing a lot of classical type stuff. The audience was getting very irritated but soon as she got into her hot stuff bad girls repertoire the audience was fairly reactive. so yeah I would agree with you that she was pretty much known for her disco hits. She sure had an incredible voice I can tell you that. I didn't realize how powerful her voice was.

[edafan]

Hi Marv, how do you think they classified Donna Summers music? soul-pop-rock?
Thanks and hope all is well. Been crazy bill will catch up with you soon take care.

I think I have trouble defining what is in each genre of music. For instance I've started collecting JAZZ now, because in younger years I didn't have the money to buy Jazz records. But in going to sites for the best of that genre, they include Louis Armstrong, Glenn Miller, and Benny Goodman in the list of 100 best Jazz songs.

I don't like to pigeon hole good music. I find even the supposed experts can't define these subsets of music correctly. I am a math teacher by profession.

In the forties and fifties they were called race music. I ran a big band from 1965 until 1979. We played stuff from the 30's to 1979, if it was good music. Just as a little joke, we had one guy who could not count in 5 fourths for Take Five. So we told him to fake it, and not blow into his sax.

edafan

[detmotownguy]

I think I understand what you're saying! a friend of mine owned a record store back in Detroit and he simply organize artist alphabetically by the last name. Good points!

[midnightman]

Tina Turner, as Jimi said, was "black enough" for white rock critics, hence why she didn't get much of a backlash as the Supremes, Dionne Warwick and others who crossed over got.

[midnightman]

What about Black people who rejected "prim and proper" Black artists because they viewed them as "trying to be White"? But, what it does point to is that most music critics have historically been White, and most are from lily-white backgrounds, whose only exposure to Blacks seem to be from the records they listen to. Prominent rock critic Robert Christgau even admitted at some point that he wasn't even familiar with Black music in the 60s and 70s.

And, as I recall, the rock critics always liked Donna Summer.

She was the queen of disco... rock critics hated disco. They didn't dig her until the release of the Bad Girls album.

[jobeterob]

Rolling Stone dismissed Motown pretty perfunctorily until 1970 and then they had a sea change of opinion led by Vince Aletti and Jon Landau.

[soulster]

She was the queen of disco... rock critics hated disco. They didn't dig her until the release of the Bad Girls album.

I don't remember this version of history.

[soulster]

Rolling Stone dismissed Motown pretty perfunctorily until 1970 and then they had a sea change of opinion led by Vince Aletti and Jon Landau.

Well, it was around that time when artists started breaking away from Motown's assembly plant-style of making records. I suggest that if some critics hated Motown in the 60s, it's because of their process of manufacturing music. Think about it: when Motown hit their stride in 1965, it was the exact same time the rock bands started to write and play, and even produce their own songs. The crooners/stylists became less dependant on Brill Building songwriters and label-assigned record producers. Later on in the 60s, Black artists started doing their own thing, and didn't want to be so controlled by the labels. In those respects, Motown was far behind the times. Even into the late 70s, Motown tried to maintain that old-style control over the artists and their recordings. One by one, artists either leveraged more control, or left the label for greener pastures. By the late 70s, even your beloved Diana Ross had enough of the parental control. One could argue that some of these artists failed in the long-term and returned to the label, but it was the 70s, and you have to allow people to grow and find their own way instead of being controlled. I think this is what the critics who were critical of Motown were trying to get it.

[marv2]

Rolling Stone dismissed Motown pretty perfunctorily until 1970 and then they had a sea change of opinion led by Vince Aletti and Jon Landau.

Which was rather stupid considering Motown was probably the most popular music of the 60s.

[marv2]

She was the queen of disco... rock critics hated disco. They didn't dig her until the release of the Bad Girls album.

Exactly. When "Hot Stuff" hit the airwaves in 1979, they started talking about Donna Summer as if she were a brand new artist.

[marv2]

I don't remember this version of history.

I remember. Everyone thought she was a novelty act, a one hit wonder when "Love to Love You Baby" came out near the end of 1975. She went on to have disco hit after hit. There was an underground movement building to destroy Disco with the "Disco Sucks" slogan. Not until the "Bad Girls" album and specifically the single "Hot Stuff" did Donna Summer get some play with certain segments of the market.....Rockers. Listen to "Hot Stuff". Notice the rock guitars and the way she is singing.

[marv2]

Well, it was around that time when artists started breaking away from Motown's assembly plant-style of making records. I suggest that if some critics hated Motown in the 60s, it's because of their process of manufacturing music. Think about it: when Motown hit their stride in 1965, it was the exact same time the rock bands started to write and play, and even produce their own songs. The crooners/stylists became less dependant on Brill Building songwriters and label-assigned record producers. Later on in the 60s, Black artists started doing their own thing, and didn't want to be so controlled by the labels. In those respects, Motown was far behind the times. Even into the late 70s, Motown tried to maintain that old-style control over the artists and their recordings. One by one, artists either leveraged more control, or left the label for greener pastures. By the late 70s, even your beloved Diana Ross had enough of the parental control. One could argue that some of these artists failed in the long-term and returned to the label, but it was the 70s, and you have to allow people to grow and find their own way instead of being controlled. I think this is what the critics who were critical of Motown were trying to get it.

Yet that assembly-line way of producing records Motown utilize, produced more hits that many of those rock bands combined! In fact, Motown's Funk Brothers played on more hit records than any other musicians in history! I think it was more about jealousy than anything else. Motown had top songwriters, musicians and singers/performers. Just because an artist did not do everything themselves before releasing a record does not mean much to me. How boring it was to watch many of those self important Rock Bands play vs the exciting stage shows Motown artists put on.

[StuBass1]

Some of this stuff appears quite foreign to me...Growing up in Detroit, my earliest memory of live entertainment was our parents taking us into a huge tent at the Michigan State Fair in the late 50's to see a group called the Royal Jokers...a forerunner to many of the local Detroit male R&B groups that came along later...I have no doubt that there were those, particularly in the South, that didn't accept blacks on television, and I recall discussions when shows like Nat King Cole's variety show or even when the Julia sitcom came along and the foreseen risks by television executives based on those shows being shown in certain parts of the country...Growing up in Detroit and having records in our house by Sammy Davis Jr, Little Richard, and other black and white artists, I recall us having a great deal of pride, particularly in Detroit whenever Motown artists appeared on shows like Ed Sullivan and others...I actually recall Sullivan referring to The Supremes as the "three negro girls from Detroit" in his introduction... As for the Beatles...neither the Beatles nor the Supremes had the cultural impact as Elvis, in that rock&roll was quite controversial at that time and even body movement and exposure in rock&roll performances became an issue by television executives when Elvis was first exposed to the public...The Beatles, like many other British Invasion bands to come along later...true, were big Motown followers of particularly of Four Tops and the Miracles and the Motown musicians and sound in particular, influenced and branded a new style of music, somewhat copied from US R&B, performed with British accents and throw in unique clothing and hairstyles, and a cultural phenomenon occurred...I think America was beginning to get a bit bored with mainstream R&R and The Beatles were able to take advantage of that void and create quite a stir...

[luke]

Yep that why I said Rock critics CAME to appreciate Donna EVENtUALLY . Sansradio's comment says it all!!

[marv2]

Some of this stuff appears quite foreign to me...Growing up in Detroit, my earliest memory of live entertainment was our parents taking us into a huge tent at the Michigan State Fair in the late 50's to see a group called the Royal Jokers...a forerunner to many of the local Detroit male R&B groups that came along later...I have no doubt that there were those, particularly in the South, that didn't accept blacks on television, and I recall discussions when shows like Nat King Cole's variety show or even when the Julia sitcom came along and the foreseen risks by television executives based on those shows being shown in certain parts of the country...Growing up in Detroit and having records in our house by Sammy Davis Jr, Little Richard, and other black and white artists, I recall us having a great deal of pride, particularly in Detroit whenever Motown artists appeared on shows like Ed Sullivan and others...I actually recall Sullivan referring to The Supremes as the "three negro girls from Detroit" in his introduction... As for the Beatles...neither the Beatles nor the Supremes had the cultural impact as Elvis, in that rock&roll was quite controversial at that time and even body movement and exposure in rock&roll performances became an issue by television executives when Elvis was first exposed to the public...The Beatles, like many other British Invasion bands to come along later...true, were big Motown followers of particularly of Four Tops and the Miracles and the Motown musicians and sound in particular, influenced and branded a new style of music, somewhat copied from US R&B, performed with British accents and throw in unique clothing and hairstyles, and a cultural phenomenon occurred...I think America was beginning to get a bit bored with mainstream R&R and The Beatles were able to take advantage of that void and create quite a stir...

Stu, I remember the pride we had whenever a Detroit/Motown act appeared on television. I was kid in those days and did not know that having black artists on TV would cause a problem in other parts of the country [[I learned about that later....). The Beatles were huge! I remember all the screaming during their first Ed Sullivan Show performance. My brother Robert and I would be in back seat of my Dad's car singing our heads off to "She Loves You" yeah, yeah, yeah and we were black! LOL! Back then everyone seem to love everything in terms of music. I loved the Four Seasons early 60s records as much as I loved Stevie Wonder back then.

I always have to give props to KEENER, CKLW, WOHO and other stations in our area [[Detroit,Windsor, Toledo...) for exposing us to ALL of the music in those days.

[StuBass1]

Donna, IIRC, was also the first African-American artist to be nominated for a rock Grammy [[for her track "Protection.") Ironic that Black artists are considered alien in an art form largely created by Black people. In the words of John Cougar, ain't that America?
Actually...this didn't sound quite right to me and upon further investigation I discovered that Donna Summer won the Grammy for Best Female Rock Vocal Performance [[Hot Stuff) the very FIRST year that Female ROCK Vocal Performance became a category beating out Cindy Bullens [[Survivor), Rickie Lee Jones [[The Last Chance Texaco), Bonnie Raitt [[You're Gonna Get Whats Coming),Carley Simon [[Vengence) and Tanya Tucker [[TNT) ...Prior to that, aside from niche categories like R&B, Country, Gospel, Jazz...overall vocalists, male and female fell into the best Pop [[or top 40 at one point), or just best vocalist [[male&female) categories...and winners long before Donna won the inaugural Female Rock Vocalist, winners included Dionne Warwick [[multiple times), The Fifth Dimension, Roberta Flack, Gladys Knight & The Pips, and very early [[in specific non genre classified) vocalist category included Ella Fitzgerald [[multiple) Nat King Cole [[Top 40), Ray Charles. Natalie Cole [[BEst New Artist)...and more...all before Donnna won her Best Rock Vocalist Grammy in around 1980...

[StuBass1]

Yep that why I said Rock critics CAME to appreciate Donna EVENtUALLY . Sansradio's comment says it all!!
As I pointed out...Donna won the very FIRST Female Rock Vocal Performance Grammy ever awarded in that category for Hot Stuff...Didn't take the critics too long...

[StuBass1]

Stu, I remember the pride we had whenever a Detroit/Motown act appeared on television. I was kid in those days and did not know that having black artists on TV would cause a problem in other parts of the country [[I learned about that later....). The Beatles were huge! I remember all the screaming during their first Ed Sullivan Show performance. My brother Robert and I would be in back seat of my Dad's car singing our heads off to "She Loves You" yeah, yeah, yeah and we were black! LOL! Back then everyone seem to love everything in terms of music. I loved the Four Seasons early 60s records as much as I loved Stevie Wonder back then.

I always have to give props to KEENER, CKLW, WOHO and other stations in our area [[Detroit,Windsor, Toledo...) for exposing us to ALL of the music in those days.
YEs Marv...well before the "re-segregation" of radio with niche stations...In our day...Top 40 radio played every contemporary ARTIST...black, white, r&B rock & roll, rockabilly, etc..We were all exposed to all contemporary music...I remember sleepovers at friends houses as a kid and falling asleep to a Four Seasons song, followed by a Little Anthony and The Imperials song, Followed by a Dionnne Warwick song, followed by a Petula Clark song...etc etc. etc...

[marv2]

As I pointed out...Donna won the very FIRST Female Rock Vocal Performance Grammy ever awarded in that category for Hot Stuff...Didn't take the critics too long...

Yes that is the song Rock critics first took seriously from Donna.

[sansradio]

Actually...this didn't sound quite right to me and upon further investigation I discovered that Donna Summer won the Grammy for Best Female Rock Vocal Performance [[Hot Stuff) the very FIRST year that Female ROCK Vocal Performance became a category beating out Cindy Bullens [[Survivor), Rickie Lee Jones [[The Last Chance Texaco), Bonnie Raitt [[You're Gonna Get Whats Coming),Carley Simon [[Vengence) and Tanya Tucker [[TNT) ...Prior to that, aside from niche categories like R&B, Country, Gospel, Jazz...overall vocalists, male and female fell into the best Pop [[or top 40 at one point), or just best vocalist [[male&female) categories...and winners long before Donna won the inaugural Female Rock Vocalist, winners included Dionne Warwick [[multiple times), The Fifth Dimension, Roberta Flack, Gladys Knight & The Pips, and very early [[in specific non genre classified) vocalist category included Ella Fitzgerald [[multiple) Nat King Cole [[Top 40), Ray Charles. Natalie Cole [[BEst New Artist)...and more...all before Donnna won her Best Rock Vocalist Grammy in around 1980...

I stand corrected; "Hot Stuff" was indeed her first rock Grammy. However, my point was not about pop recognition for Black artists, but specifically "rock." Unlike the long track record of African-Americans winning in pop categories, the rock Grammys had never had even one Black nominee until Donna, followed by Michael Jackson [["Beat It"). Donna was indeed nominated again for "Protection," the same year as "Beat It," IIRC. And it took three years for another Black nominee [[oddly enough, Melba Moore for "Read My Lips.").

[StuBass1]

I stand corrected; "Hot Stuff" was indeed her first rock Grammy. However, my point was not about pop recognition for Black artists, but specifically "rock." Unlike the long track record of African-Americans winning in pop categories, the rock Grammys had never had even one Black nominee until Donna, followed by Michael Jackson [["Beat It"). And it took three years for another Black nominee [[oddly enough, Melba Moore for "Read My Lips.").
Actually not just her [[Donna's) first Rock Grammy...but very first Rock Grammy in the category of ROCK Female Vocalist...Tina Turner also won in that category a few years later...That said...Rock sub-genres can be a tricky thing...I have long argued that R&B/Soul is just another sub-genre of "Rock" and it's pioneers were many of the seminal "Rock" artists and contributors...The Grammys do have the R&B categories and many popular R&B/Soul artists like Aretha have won often in that category [[and Aretha IS the Queen of "Soul"). As in any of these awards...the voting process often leaves controversial discussions about what artist or song fits into one specific category or another. I know that Heavy Metal fans for YEARS complained that artists from that genre were overlooked by the Rock & Roll Hall Of Fame and KISS fans thought that the reason it took so long for them was due to their musical style and get-ups ...so at a certain point, it does become quite subjective...but so far as Donna Summer...she was certainly not overlooked by the Grammys...at least so far as the Female Rock Vocalist award was concerned since she won the inaugural [[first ever)award in that category...

[detmotownguy]

Marv wasn't Detroit radio/media was the best! Those memories are the best medicine on a bad day! Everything is so damn sterile today.... Cheers

[marv2]

Marv wasn't Detroit radio/media was the best! Those memories are the best medicine on a bad day! Everything is so damn sterile today.... Cheers

We did have the best! I can barely listen to commercial radio today and have no loyalty to any of the stations today. It is a vast wasteland.

[sansradio]

Actually not just her [[Donna's) first Rock Grammy...but very first Rock Grammy in the category of ROCK Female Vocalist...Tina Turner also won in that category a few years later...That said...Rock sub-genres can be a tricky thing...I have long argued that R&B/Soul is just another sub-genre of "Rock" and it's pioneers were many of the seminal "Rock" artists and contributors...The Grammys do have the R&B categories and many popular R&B/Soul artists like Aretha have won often in that category [[and Aretha IS the Queen of "Soul"). As in any of these awards...the voting process often leaves controversial discussions about what artist or song fits into one specific category or another. I know that Heavy Metal fans for YEARS complained that artists from that genre were overlooked by the Rock & Roll Hall Of Fame and KISS fans thought that the reason it took so long for them was due to their musical style and get-ups ...so at a certain point, it does become quite subjective...but so far as Donna Summer...she was certainly not overlooked by the Grammys...at least so far as the Female Rock Vocalist award was concerned since she won the inaugural [[first ever)award in that category...

Yes, but the overarching point is that we are discussing tokens where the rock genre is concerned, and therein lies the problem. Rock critics, the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, and the Grammy rock categories largely remain a clubbish, country-club-like set that generally sneer at foundational R&B pioneers when it can be argued that those pioneers are the ones who invented rock. Look at how the Hall of Fame continually snub The Marvelettes and Chic. Sure, Donna won the first female rock Grammy, but what of all the men? After Michael, not one Black man was nominated in the best male rock category until Lenny Kravitz in '96. Hence my point...the rock critical guard is guilty of snobbery at best.

CORRECTION: I've since discovered that Gary U.S. Bonds, Rick James and Joan Armatrading also had rock nominations in the early days, so apologies for that oversight. Donna also had another rock nomination between the two aforementioned ["Cold Love"]. The overall Grammy demographics remain rather homogenous for the men in rock; Black women have been only slightly better represented.

And thanks for the shout-out, Luke!;)

[StuBass1]

As Marv alluded to earlier...music, following the days of Top 40 radio has become so compartmentalized...just look at the station selections on XM radio for proof, that it's even difficult to define the various genres and sub-genres of music anymore because there are so many sub-genres to consider. Some of my most vociferous arguments have been with some individual who sees "Rock" music as essentially 4 or 5 white guys playing guitars, keyboard and drums...shoulder length hair with tattoos and body piercings. These people fail to see and take into account the history of Rock [[Rock&Roll) and it's various incarnatons and sub-genres...thus contributing to that concept is the various categories of awards the Grammys actually presents...If it was just "Rock"...the show would be very short...I've had dealings with NARAS as I represented, served as spokesperson and sponsor of Motowns rhythm section...The Funk Brothers , and found them to be quite cooperative once I explained the situation to them, resulting ultimately in a Grammy Lifetime Achievement Award and many NARAS people actually bent over backwards trying to advance our cause...The R&R HOF, as I mentioned...it seems that virtually everyone has a beef with them. The Metal Rockers think they get overlooked there...and even KISS fans lament how long it took that group to get recognition there due to their music and get-ups. I personally believe that the R&R HOF has been pretty accommodating to black artists, particularly the seminal pioneers of the genre...While the Marvelettes and Chic, both deserving appear to perhaps be overlooked...they represent but two of the dozens and dozens of black performers who have been honored there and there will always be performers that some believe have been unfairly left out...Perhaps those two will be honored at some time in the future...

[Jimi LaLumia]

The Supremes NEVER recieved a Grammy Award..

[soulster]

I remember. Everyone thought she was a novelty act, a one hit wonder when "Love to Love You Baby" came out near the end of 1975. She went on to have disco hit after hit. There was an underground movement building to destroy Disco with the "Disco Sucks" slogan. Not until the "Bad Girls" album and specifically the single "Hot Stuff" did Donna Summer get some play with certain segments of the market.....Rockers. Listen to "Hot Stuff". Notice the rock guitars and the way she is singing.

Oh, sure, when she released "Bad Girls", she gained credibility with rock audiences, and became the critics' darling. I'm saying that it wasn't all that negative when she started out.

When "Love To Love You Baby" came out in late 1975, she wasn't seen as a novelty, but a few people did criticize the moaning and groaning on the song as overtly sexual. And, as with the times, it was played on the radio and sold in the stores to kids like me. Well, I was 13 by then. But, the way I remember it is that critics realized she had real singing talent, and her respect grew with each album.

Overall, disco wasn't condemned in 1975/76 as it was later in the decade after Saturday Night Fever came out. That's because the disco scene, as opposed to the music itself, was somewhat concentrated in the major coastal cities like New York City and San Francisco. It wasn't yet seen as a cultural threat, even as the airwaves and stores were starting to fill up with disco records. In 1975, Van McCoy's "The Hustle" was the most respected disco hit of the year. Before then, Barry White was always loved by the rock critics, as was MFSB. And, later on, the critics couldn't get enough of Chic!

But, why are we even talking about what rock critics think? Who cares? My opinion of professional music critics ranks somewhere with politicians and cops. What matters is what we, the fans think. After all, we are the ones who spent our hard-earned money on it. The critics? They got their stash for free.

[RossHolloway]

But, why are we even talking about what rock critics think? Who cares? My opinion of professional music critics ranks somewhere with politicians and cops. What matters is what we, the fans think. After all, we are the ones who spent our hard-earned money on it. The critics? They got their stash for free.

I could not have said it better.

[soulster]

Yet that assembly-line way of producing records Motown utilize, produced more hits that many of those rock bands combined! In fact, Motown's Funk Brothers played on more hit records than any other musicians in history! I think it was more about jealousy than anything else. Motown had top songwriters, musicians and singers/performers. Just because an artist did not do everything themselves before releasing a record does not mean much to me. How boring it was to watch many of those self important Rock Bands play vs the exciting stage shows Motown artists put on. Artists got tired of that approach to making records. It stifled their talent and creativity. That's why so many pushed for artistic freedom or left. Gladys Knight said it was the best move she and her cousins ever made. The Isleys respected Motown, but quickly realized it wasn't their thing. And, the Four Tops also wanted to branch out and do their own thing. The Jackson 5, Frankie Valli and The Four Seasons, the list goes on. Then, there were the ones Berry Gordy pretty much let have their own way from the start, even though they still had to fight the other executives in the company.

Numbers don't impress me. Just because the fabulous Funk Brothers played on so many records means little to me. So the The Wrecking Crew out in L.A.. And, what about Booker T. & The M.G.'s? I know this is a Motown forum, but the world did not center around Motown, especially after the boom years of 1964-1966. After '65, Motown's influence started to gradually decline because of many factors, and their style of making records was part of that. I can say that James Brown and Aretha Franklin, and the civil rights movement had a lot to do with it.

[soulster]

Stu's several posts above are the way I remember history too. As far as what happened musically, he's on the money.

[marv2]

Artists got tired of that approach to making records. It stifled their talent and creativity. That's why so many pushed for artistic freedom or left. Gladys Knight said it was the best move she and her cousins ever made. The Isleys respected Motown, but quickly realized it wasn't their thing. And, the Four Tops also wanted to branch out and do their own thing. The Jackson 5, Frankie Valli and The Four Seasons, the list goes on. Then, there were the ones Berry Gordy pretty much let have their own way from the start, even though they still had to fight the other executives in the company.

Numbers don't impress me. Just because the fabulous Funk Brothers played on so many records means little to me. So the The Wrecking Crew out in L.A.. And, what about Booker T. & The M.G.'s? I know this is a Motown forum, but the world did not center around Motown, especially after the boom years of 1964-1966. After '65, Motown's influence started to gradually decline because of many factors, and their style of making records was part of that. I can say that James Brown and Aretha Franklin, and the civil rights movement had a lot to do with it.

Regarding the Funk Brothers. They didn't just play on so many records. They played on so many HIT RECORDS! Records that are now considered classics and that are loved by the masses around World! That is not a small fete! They were some of the best musicians in the industry. They had real talent! They did not f around when they went into the studio.

[marv2]

Oh, sure, when she released "Bad Girls", she gained credibility with rock audiences, and became the critics' darling. I'm saying that it wasn't all that negative when she started out.

When "Love To Love You Baby" came out in late 1975, she wasn't seen as a novelty, but a few people did criticize the moaning and groaning on the song as overtly sexual. And, as with the times, it was played on the radio and sold in the stores to kids like me. Well, I was 13 by then. But, the way I remember it is that critics realized she had real singing talent, and her respect grew with each album.

Overall, disco wasn't condemned in 1975/76 as it was later in the decade after Saturday Night Fever came out. That's because the disco scene, as opposed to the music itself, was somewhat concentrated in the major coastal cities like New York City and San Francisco. It wasn't yet seen as a cultural threat, even as the airwaves and stores were starting to fill up with disco records. In 1975, Van McCoy's "The Hustle" was the most respected disco hit of the year. Before then, Barry White was always loved by the rock critics, as was MFSB. And, later on, the critics couldn't get enough of Chic!

But, why are we even talking about what rock critics think? Who cares? My opinion of professional music critics ranks somewhere with politicians and cops. What matters is what we, the fans think. After all, we are the ones who spent our hard-earned money on it. The critics? They got their stash for free.

Yes she was seen as a novelty act with that first hit!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4C4j6q6PQc0

[marv2]

The Supremes NEVER recieved a Grammy Award..

No they did not unfortunately.

[soulster]

Regarding the Funk Brothers. They didn't just play on so many records. They played on so many HIT RECORDS! Records that are now considered classics and that are loved by the masses around World! That is not a small fete! They were some of the best musicians in the industry. They had real talent! They did not f around when they went into the studio.

You can say the same about a lot of studio bands. MFSB also comes to mind.

[soulster]

Yes she was seen as a novelty act with that first hit!

No she wasn't, and no posting of a video will prove your point.

[marv2]

You can say the same about a lot of studio bands. MFSB also comes to mind.

Well that was exactly what they said about Donna. That she was a studio creation of Giorgio Moroder and that she probably couldn't really sing. Then, as her popular grew with successive hit releases, they started spreading the rumor that she wasn't even a woman,but a man in drag or transvestite. Even after she appeared on the cover of Ebony Magazine holding her young daughter Mimi. Are you familiar with Boney M and Frank Farian [[another German record producer)? Their story and Donna's are similar in many ways.

[marv2]

No she wasn't, and no posting of a video will prove your point.

I just know what the feeling was regarding Donna Summer and that first record. I don't have to prove anything. During that time many Disco acts that had hits were studio singers. Once they hit, they had to create a "stage act" to further promote their records. I guess what started the idea that Donna Summer was another novelty act was all the moaning and groaning she did on "Love to Love You Baby".

[StuBass1]

Regarding the Funk Brothers. They didn't just play on so many records. They played on so many HIT RECORDS! Records that are now considered classics and that are loved by the masses around World! That is not a small fete! They were some of the best musicians in the industry. They had real talent! They did not f around when they went into the studio.
The thing about The Funk Brothers and what Allen Slutsky accomplished with his "Standing In The Shadows Of Motown" documentary was to bring to light to the general public the importance of session musicians in the creativity and skills that went into making the hit records that people were familiar with. Despite what may have occurred later between Allan and the musicians, telling that story inspired others to do their own projects as did Denny Tedesco, son of legendary Los Angeles session guitarist Tommy Tedesco, who eventually got funded to produce his "Wrecking Crew" film. Denny told me that he was certainly inspired by the SITSOM project as were many others. Projects featuring the Stax musicians have also been done. Another friend of mine, filmmaker Gil Baker has an enormous amount of taped interviews with legendary session musicians from Wrecking Crew guys Glen Campbell, Hal Blaine, Earl Palmer, Carol Kaye, Larry Knechtel...as well as in depth studio visits and interviews with the Memphis Horns, Booker T and the Stax guys, The Swampers [[Muscle Shoals musicians), and even Bobby Ei and Earl Young from MFSB, and even a segment featuring bass legend Will Lee [[demonstrating and discussing Funk Brothers recording techniques) for his upcoming documentary film "Session Men"...I speak with Gil quite often and he's working tying up some lose ends to finish off what will likely be the most comprehensive film on session musicians ever produced. Snippets of the unfinished version can be found on YouTube under the heading of Session Men or Gil Baker...Great stuff. I was privileged to have had the opportunity to represent The Funk Brothers for their Grammy Lifetime Achievement Award and their induction and Star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame, which along with many other honors like the Hollywood Rock Walk and the Musicians Hall Of Fame encouraged many of these filmmakers to do their own projects featuring the often unsung musicians who toiled in the studios to put the soundtrack and heartbeat on all the records that so many have enjoyed throughout the years...

[marv2]

The thing about The Funk Brothers and what Allen Slutsky accomplished with his "Standing In The Shadows Of Motown" documentary was to bring to light to the general public the importance of session musicians in the creativity and skills that went into making the hit records that people were familiar with. Despite what may have occurred later between Allan and the musicians, telling that story inspired others to do their own projects as did Denny Tedesco, son of legendary Los Angeles session guitarist Tommy Tedesco, who eventually got funded to produce his "Wrecking Crew" film. Denny told me that he was certainly inspired by the SITSOM project as were many others. Projects featuring the Stax musicians have also been done. Another friend of mine, filmmaker Gil Baker has an enormous amount of taped interviews wit legendary session musicians from Wrecking Crew guys Glen Campbell, Hal Blaine, Earl Palmer, Carol Kaye, Larry Knechtel...as well as in depth studio visits and interviews with the Memphis Horns, Booker T and the Stax guys, The Swampers [[Muscle Shoals musicians), and even Bobby Ei and Earl Young from MFSB, and even a segment featuring bass legend Will Lee [[demonstrating and discussing Funk Brothers recording techniques) for his upcoming documentary film "Session Men"...I speak with Gil quite often and he's working tying up some lose ends to finish off what will likely be the most comprehensive film on session musicians ever produced. Snippets of the unfinished version can be found on YouTube under the heading of Session Men or Gil Baker...Great stuff. I was privileged to have had the opportunity to represent The Funk Brothers for their Grammy Lifetime Achievement Award and their induction and Star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame, which along with many other honors like the Hollywood Rock Walk and the Musicians Hall Of Fame encouraged many of these filmmakers to do their own projects featuring the often unsung musicians who toiled in the studios to put the soundtrack and heartbeat on all the records that so many have enjoyed throughout the years...

Stu there are still people today who refuse to acknowledge that the Funk Brothers were the greatest! There are no Rock Bands that can compare to that group of musicians anywhere on the planet!

[StuBass1]

Stu there are still people today who refuse to acknowledge that the Funk Brothers were the greatest! There are no Rock Bands that can compare to that group of musicians anywhere on the planet!
If you watch any of Gils project, you'll appreciate just how many absolutely GREAT musical ensembles there were out there. The ones who probably achieved the greatest level of virtuosity as an ensemble were the ones like The Funk Brothers who remained a relatively tight knit group of guys who played together day after day. The uniqueness of the Funk Brothers was the fact that they became associated with a sound which became known as Motown...more than just a record label, but a sound, a method of producing records, and came together at the right time and the right place to form one of the greatest ensembles in modern music history...The MFSB guys in Philly, the Wrecking Crew musicians were individually and collectively some of the greatest and most creative musicians on the planet, as well as Muscle Shoals musicians known as The Swampers who developed a very distinctive groove, and Booker T and his gang in Memphis...no slouches in any of them...

[soulster]

I just know what the feeling was regarding Donna Summer and that first record. I don't have to prove anything. During that time many Disco acts that had hits were studio singers. Once they hit, they had to create a "stage act" to further promote their records. I guess what started the idea that Donna Summer was another novelty act was all the moaning and groaning she did on "Love to Love You Baby". You don't "know" anything, as you don't speak for everyone.

[soulster]

If you watch any of Gils project, you'll appreciate just how many absolutely GREAT musical ensembles there were out there. The ones who probably achieved the greatest level of virtuosity as an ensemble were the ones like The Funk Brothers who remained a relatively tight knit group of guys who played together day after day. The uniqueness of the Funk Brothers was the fact that they became associated with a sound which became known as Motown...more than just a record label, but a sound, a method of producing records, and came together at the right time and the right place to form one of the greatest ensembles in modern music history...The MFSB guys in Philly, the Wrecking Crew musicians were individually and collectively some of the greatest and most creative musicians on the planet, as well as Muscle Shoals musicians known as The Swampers who developed a very distinctive groove, and Booker T and his gang in Memphis...no slouches in any of them...

Exactly! You can even add Toto, and the rest of the Quincy Jones empire of the late 70s and 80s. Can't forget the Swampers! They were so good that Jerry Wexler flew some of them up to NY for sessions [[mainly because Aretha wouldn't record down there again).

Marv, again, I know this is a Motown-specific forum, but we can't get so militant that we can't see the reality. No one is trying to marginalize the Funk Brothers, but we are saying that there were other studio bands that were equally accomplished.

[marv2]

You don't "know" anything, as you don't speak for everyone.


I know what I know! I also know I don't like your tone! It's not my fault you grew up in Cowboy land. Everyone East of the Mississippi considered her a novelty act with that first record!

[Roberta75]

I know what I know! I also know I don't like your tone! It's not my fault you grew up in Cowboy land. Everyone East of the Mississippi considered her a novelty act with that first record!

You act like the Donald Trump of this here forum. You cant just civilly dissagree you have to insult where someone grew up and even then your not even correct. I believe Soulster had said many times that one of his parents was in the armed services and he moved around a lot.

cant you just be respectfull when dissagreeing?

[soulster]

I know what I know! I also know I don't like your tone! It's not my fault you grew up in Cowboy land. Everyone East of the Mississippi considered her a novelty act with that first record!

It's funny that "cowboy land" thought better of Donna Summer. You also read my tone wrong. And, not everyone on this forum grew up in "da hood".

[Jimi LaLumia]

"Love To Love You Baby" WAS treated as a novelty when it was a hit, that is just a fact, no one knew what was to follow.. I remember a NYC radio DJ saying that if she did a show the stage would probably be a giant bed..it was compared to he French "Je taime" record which was also a heavy breather record..Marv is correct

[marv2]

"Love To Love You Baby" WAS treated as a novelty when it was a hit, that is just a fact, no one knew what was to follow.. I remember a NYC radio DJ saying that if she did a show the stage would probably be a giant bed..it was compared to he French "Je taime" record which was also a heavy breather record..Marv is correct

That's right Jimi, I'm not making this shit up. It was not as novel as Rick Dee's "Disco Duck" or that other Meri Wilson's "Telephone Man" but it was as much a novelty record as Disco Tex & The Sex-O-Lettes, "Get Dancin' ".

After Donna's 16 min moan and groan epic was a smash hit, a lot of female singers started adding some sexy overtones to their music. Listen to Aretha's "Giving Him Something He Can Feel", Mavis Staples on the Staple Singers "Let's Do It Again" to even the Supremes "You Are the Heart of Me".

We did not know that Donna Summer was going to be mainstay with such a great singing voice until later. I am trying to argue what was definitely going on at the time.

[144man]

That's right Jimi, I'm not making this shit up. It was not as novel as Rick Dee's "Disco Duck" or that other Meri Wilson's "Telephone Man" but it was as much a novelty record as Disco Tex & The Sex-O-Lettes, "Get Dancin' ".

After Donna's 16 min moan and groan epic was a smash hit, a lot of female singers started adding some sexy overtones to their music. Listen to Aretha's "Giving Him Something He Can Feel", Mavis Staples on the Staple Singers "Let's Do It Again" to even the Supremes "You Are the Heart of Me".

We did not know that Donna Summer was going to be mainstay with such a great singing voice until later. I am trying to argue what was definitely going on at the time.

That's exactly how it was with Donna Summer in the UK as well.

[soulster]

"Love To Love You Baby" WAS treated as a novelty when it was a hit, that is just a fact, no one knew what was to follow.. I remember a NYC radio DJ saying that if she did a show the stage would probably be a giant bed..it was compared to he French "Je taime" record which was also a heavy breather record..Marv is correct

Facts require hard evidence, not anecdotal evidence. The joke about the bed didn't mean she was treated as novelty. Perhaps the word "novel" is the wrong word to be using, and what I have been reacting to.

[Jimi LaLumia]

I was a dept. manager at Sam goody the biggst record chain on the East Coast at the time this was released I lived it..we were there, were you? evidence..lol..her 'loveglove' didnt fit, so we must aquit

[soulster]

I was a dept. manager at Sam goody the biggst record chain on the East Coast at the time this was released I lived it..we were there, were you? evidence..lol..her 'loveglove' didnt fit, so we must aquit Do you have evidence?

[Jimi LaLumia]

yes, I'm invited to the upcoming Sam Goody staff reunion..lol..

[marv2]

yes, I'm invited to the upcoming Sam Goody staff reunion..lol..

I wished I were going. Man! I miss Sam Goody's! the Wiz and Peaches Records hehehehehehehehe.............