The Brexit Votes Have it: The U.K. Is Leaving The E.U.

[soulster]

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/brexit-referendum/u-k-voters-back-brexit-will-leave-european-union-forecasts-n596826

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/brexit-referendum/brexit-prospect-sends-pound-35-year-low-pummeling-markets-n598096

An even messier situation is that now Scotland wants to rejoin the E.U..

Interesting times, indeed!

[bradburger]

Indeed Soulster.

Seems the bullying and scaremongering tactics by the 'Remain' campaign didn't scare our electorate as they thought it would.

June 23, 2016 will go down as our Independence Day.

Time to play Gladys Knight & the Pips 'It's Time to Go Now' I think!

Cheers

Paul

[theboyfromxtown]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDXc5AcdExo

[theboyfromxtown]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxxTqnZ7NKY

[theboyfromxtown]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiTdmnrwbKs

[theboyfromxtown]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKl6EZShaaw

[bradburger]

John,

I knew you would come up with almost half a dozen songs that suit, when I could only think of one!

Time for bed I think!

Cheers

Paul

[theboyfromxtown]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3XP9s1GEgM

[theboyfromxtown]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09QJt9MBBUY

[honest man]

[QUOTE=soulster;338394]http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/brexit-referendum/u-k-voters-back-brexit-will-leave-european-union-forecasts-n596826

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/brexit-referendum/brexit-prospect-sends-pound-35-year-low-pummeling-markets-n598096

An even messier situation is that now Scotland wants to rejoin the E.U..

Interesting times, indeed![/QUOTE OMG What a mess this is,i have friends and family who voted OUT asking what have they done,what did they expect 43 years of establishment wiped out,dread to think what next few years will be like for the lets say poorer people of society,myself included,P..... Off with D... heads

[soulster]

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/brexit-referendum/brexit-vote-here-s-soundtrack-you-need-breakup-n598256

[honest man]

The thought of Johnson and Trump leading these 2 countries makes me feel sick.

[144man]

The £ has fallen, so I probably won't be buying many new imports. More seriously, food prices are likely to go sky high as we import so much.:[[

I remember we used to have continual problems with our Balance of Payments, but this wasn't so important when we were in Europe. With the erosion of our manufacturing base, I can't see invisible exports being enough for us to pay our way.:[[

I don't know how far the stock market is going to fall, but at the moment there must be a great increase in the massive deficits that there are in pension funds. Everybody's pensions could be in jeopardy.:[[

An additional problem is that our legal system is inextricably entwined with Europe now. After 40 years of Europe, I don't know how many generations it will take to disentangle them. I suspect lawyers will do well out of this.:[[

As far as Scotland is concerned, their independence referendum took place under the premise that the UK would remain a member of the EU. The Scots have every right to demand a new referendum, and there is little doubt in my mind that this time it would be successful, thus precipitating the breakup of the United Kingdom. England alone would have a permanent Conservative majority, and one-party rule is not good for any democracy.:[[

So honest man, be afraid. Be very afraid.:[[:[[:[[

[Jerry Oz]

So, it looks like you have been Trumped. Walls are going up everywhere.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IEMr2dr5ns

[Jerry Oz]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rEsVp5tiDQ

[Jerry Oz]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b26ASkRH0o4

[roger]

My spies tell me that this song has been heard echoing around the corridors in Brussels near the lovely Jean Claude Juncker's office ..... :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_LbATof27U

[144man]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQge6HM3Uzw

Tears At the End of a Love Affair - Tammi Terrell

[soulster]

http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/24/europe/eu-referendum-britain-divided/index.html

Are the Millennials screwed?
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/brexit-referendum/britain-s-brexit-how-baby-boomers-defeated-millennials-historic-vote-n598481

Regret?
http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/24/europe/eu-referendum-britain-divided/index.html

[StuBass1]

Winston Churchill just lit a cigar from inside his grave...

[Jerry Oz]

He should probably save it. It's going to cost a lot more to replace it tomorrow.

[Jerry Oz]

Well, there's good news and bad news about Brexit. The bad news is apparently, people in England have been drinking American Kool-Aid and suffering some of the same effects the Yanks seem to have displayed regarding critical thinking and the importance of the ballot. The good news is that they can no longer afford that particularly toxic concoction, so perhaps they can steer forward with clear heads.
https://media.giphy.com/media/VEto3ti7puiJi/giphy.gif

Anger Over "Bregret" As Leave Voters Say They Thought UK Would Remain In EU

Remain voters are voicing their outrage amid claims by some people who voted for a Brexit that they regret their decision.

Electoral services workers have reported calls from people asking if they could change their decision after Friday’s result became clear, while some publicly admitted they intended to use a “protest vote” in the belief the UK was certain to remain in the European Union.


The anxiety – dubbed “Bregret” – emerged as the value of the pound tumbled and markets crashed, while some felt betrayed by Nigel Farage’s admission that a Vote Leave poster pledging to spend millions of pounds supposedly given to the EU on the NHS was a “mistake”.


Mandy Suthi, a student who voted to leave, told ITV News she would tick the Remain box if she had a second chance and said her parents and siblings also regretted their choice.


“I would go back to the polling station and vote to stay, simply because this morning the reality is kicking in,” she said.


“I wish we had the opportunity to vote again,” she added, saying she was “very disappointed”.


Khembe Gibbons, a lifeguard from Bury St Edmunds in Suffolk, also said she had regrets about her decision after Mr Farage said he could not guarantee NHS funding.


"We've left the EU, David Cameron's resigned, we're left with Boris, and Nigel has just basically given away that the NHS claim was a lie,” she wrote.


"I personally voted leave believing these lies, and I regret it more than anything, I feel genuinely robbed of my vote."


A woman calling into an LBC radio show echoed the sentiment, saying she felt “conned” by the claim and felt “a bit sick”.


A voter who gave his name as Adam told the BBC he would have changed his pro-Brexit vote if he knew the short-term consequences it would have for the UK economy.


"The David Cameron resignation has blown me away to be honest and the period of uncertainty that we’re going to be magnified now so yeah, I’m quite worried,” he said.


"I'm shocked that we voted for Leave, I didn't think that was going to happen. I didn't think my vote was going to matter too much because I thought we were just going to remain."


A blogger from Sheffield shared a message from a friend working in electoral services, claiming Brexit voters and pro-Remain members of the electorate who failed to turn out because they were confident of the win had been calling in.


“We had people phone up today wanting to change their vote or ask if they could still vote as they don’t want to leave,” the message read.


Several pro-EU politicians voiced their suspicions that some Leave voters would have regrets on Friday, with Labour MP Diane Abbott and Green MP Caroline Lucas saying Euroscepticism had become a “kind of proxy” for deep-seated problems with immigration, the NHS and other key issues.


Tony Blair, the former Prime Minister, said the Remain campaign had failed to show people the referendum “was not a protest vote against the Government or indeed the Establishment”.


Opinion polls in the months leading up to Thursday’s historic vote had dominantly shown a lead for Remain, although surveys in recent days showed the result on a knife-edge and around 10 per cent of the electorate still undecided – generating a huge swing.


The final result was 17,410,742 votes for Leave [[51.9 per cent) compared to 16,141,241 for Remain [[48.1 per cent), on a turnout of 72 per cent.


The close result has generated calls for a second referendum, as well as growing fury from pro-EU voters at the U-turn from some Brexiters.


Paul, a gamer, tweeted: "So leave voters have realised what they done and regret voting leave and would vote remain given another chance? Bit late now."


“Really NOT enjoying people saying they voted Leave and now regret it, just shush please, not helping,” another added.


The result has sparked plans for a second independence referendum in Scotland, where all electoral districts voted Remain, and a petition for London to declare independence from the rest of the UK and apply to join the EU.http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-anger-bregret-leave-voters-protest-vote-thought-uk-stay-in-eu-remain-win-a7102516.html

[soulster]

Can you say: idiots? Perhaps a lot of the "leave" voters" thought it was just a protest vote. Obviously, they were grossly mis-informed. And, the rest...c'mon! Why in the hell did you vote yes when you really didn't want to leave? And, why didn't more younger people vote?

The same could happen here, too! This is the same scenario that could happen if Donald J. Trump actually gets in. All these Trump supporters are voting for him out of protest, but what happens on November after the polls close and the realize that he actually won, reality kicks in, and they realize that they really don't want to live in a Trump America, and that they were just unhappy, and seduced by his lies of unbridled posterity for all [[except Muslims and Latinos), when all he wanted was the power? What would happen if the neo-nazis and the klan finally get their man in the white house?Gun control? Women's' rights? Equity for Blacks and Gays? A crazy Supreme Court Justice nominee with a crazed congress? Countries banning him left and right, and severing relations with us? Trump giving shared economic control of the U.S. to Putin? Joe Arpaio being emboldened to start harassing and deporting anyone who looks Mexican, and open season on Muslims. Parts of the country wanting to secede from the union. It makes one wonder what is in store for the U.K..

[Jerry Oz]

It could happen. Right now, a lot of Sanders' supporters are thinking hard about not voting or finding a third party candidate to give their vote to, thanks to Bernie's painting Hillary Clinton as being anti-progressive. The way many of them see it, if they can't have $15 as a minimum wage [[something Bernie couldn't promise would happen, BTW), they'd just as soon have a madman who will cost millions their jobs instead of someone who might be able to raise it to $12. Instead of free education at state universities, they'll take someone who will abolish the Department of Education over Clinton, who shares similar views to their candidate.

I don't think most will feel this way after the debates, but many [[like Cenk Uygur of "The Young Turks") are so butt hurt, they're willing to see at least four years of Donald Trump's America come into being. It seems that the US and British voters have a lot in common as far as the responsibilities and consequences of democratic action/inaction.

[144man]

Two and a half million people have already signed a petition on the parliamentary website calling for a second EU referendum.

[Jerry Oz]

WIth 33 million votes cast, that leaves about 23 million more names to account for most of the Leaves actually wanting to vote again. Even then, who's to say that those names would be for actual voters? This was a one time deal and good or ill, the will of the electorate is always right.

[StuBass1]

Two and a half million people have already signed a petition on the parliamentary website calling for a second EU referendum.
Petitions mean absolutely nothing in Great Britain...They have petitions for virtually everything. The House Of Commons would still have to explain to a clear majority why they reversed the will of the people...They even had a petition to ban Donald Trump...That one accomplished nothing too...LOL

[roger]

Two and a half million people have already signed a petition on the parliamentary website calling for a second EU referendum.

Winging Brats the lot of them .. totally pathetic .. and these people think they are being "Democratic" and are "fighting for inclusiveness/liberal values" etc. etc. etc .. the hypocrisy is appalling .. and the worst thing is that I know people who have signed this!!

[arr&bee]

Awww,poor little [eu's]what are they gonna do now? Those darn[uk's]big bullies.

[theboyfromxtown]

The humiliation manifested itself in some very interesting ways.

[StuBass1]

Unfortunately, the best argument those seeking to remain in the EU advanced was essentially..."We know this organization sucks...but leaving will be such a hassle in reorganizing the economic and political matters it's just easier to remain"...Keep in mind that the United States was formed by colonies seeking liberty from a far away ruling entity...those colonies having no major beef with each other deciding to form a union for the mutual defense, interstate economy, and laws limiting the authority of the Federal government while recognizing the inalienable rights of the individual...versus the EU made of numerous sovereign nations who had been at war with each other for centuries, now expected to get along and arrive at rules and laws which equally apply to all for the common good...Good luck with all that...Now just imagine how the voters in the United States would feel if 60-70% of the rules impacting our lives were made in Canada...and judicial decisions made in Mexico???...I feel that this so called Brexit is just the beginning...The disparity in the economies of the various EU entities will sooner or later convince the more economically stable nations that they are tired of economically propping up the Greece's and other irresponsible populations of their hastily thrown together organization...How long will the industrious people of Germany who like many Americans work long hours to provide a good living to themselves and their families continue to pay the bills of Greece who expects it's citizens to work no more than like 30 hours per week with two months vacation each year???...That's why the EU members want to make this a very fast "divorce"...hoping that the British mood doesn't spread to other members as the EU continues to shrink as a function of the worlds GDP and ensuing influence...

[theboyfromxtown]

Unfortunately, the best argument those seeking to remain in the EU advanced was essentially..."We know this organization sucks...but leaving will be such a hassle in reorganizing the economic and political matters"...Keep in mind that the United States was formed by colonies seeking liberty from a far away ruling entity...those colonies having no major beef with each other...versus the EU made of numerous sovereign nations who had been at war with each other for centuries, now expected to get along and arrive at rules and laws which equally apply to all for the common good...Good luck with all that...Now just imagine how the voters in the United States would feel if 60-70% of the rules impacting our lives were made in Canada...and judicial decisions made in Mexico???...I feel that this so called Brexit is just the beginning...The disparity in the economies of the various EU entities will sooner or later convince the more economically stable nations that they are tired of economically propping up the Greece's and other irresponsible populations of their hastily thrown together organization...That's why the EU members want to make this a very fast "divorce"...hoping that the British mood doesn't spread to other members as the EU continues to shrink as a function of the worlds GDP and ensuing influence...

That's a pretty good assessment. I'm impressed!!

There have already been moves by some EU countries to follow suit if the UK chose to leave. It's being referred to as the "domino effect"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/25/european-leaders-fear-brexit-vote-could-herald-eu-collapse-unles/

[theboyfromxtown]

Can I add that President Obama has always enjoyed a favourable reputation with Brits until he chose to speak against the LEAVE campaign during a recent visit. That was not a good idea and just a little too personal for some of those in the 52% camp.

I am sure Americans would not approve of our Prime Minister telling America how they should run their country. If he did, I would expect a far greater backlash than us Brits gave to President Obama!

[StuBass1]

Thank you...And in addition, If I were the Brits, I'd be not too concerned about idle Scottish threats of trying to leave the UK once again. When they tried it last time, oil, the most significant revenue producer in the Scottish economy [[Johnny Walker Blue and classic Northern Soul recordings notwithstanding lol), was at record high prices...Oil today, at around $50 a barrel would devastate the Scottish economy if they had to fund all the social programs currently provided to them by the British controlled UK...

It would be pretty funny though if Scotland left the UK and joined the EU, and when they went belly up...went hat in hand to the EU like Greece, begging Germany to bail them out to pay for the social entitlement programs that the UK had previously footed the bill for...LOL

[soulster]

Indeed Soulster.

Seems the bullying and scaremongering tactics by the 'Remain' campaign didn't scare our electorate as they thought it would.

June 23, 2016 will go down as our Independence Day.
Nope. They weren't trying to scare you. They were warning you. We in the U.S. are paying very close attention to what's happening in your country. Racism is on the rise. The markets continue to plunge, and we are learning that your boarders really won't be closed. Subsidies to schools and farmers aren't going to be there.

The reason we're watching so closely is because this is affecting our markets, too, and we have another politician who is promising voters pie in the sky: Donald Trump. What's happened in the U.K. is a big warning to us. If he wins, I can see it all now: "You're Mexican! Go back to your own country!" And, we have hundreds of little racist militia groups running around with their legal assault rifles, and certain country sheriffs and states who will try to enforce it. Hell, we already have a politician who is running on "Make America White Again". You have a famous rock artist...Eric Clapton...a supporter of Enoch Powell, who had been saying to make England White again, too!

[soulster]

Can I add that President Obama has always enjoyed a favourable reputation with Brits until he chose to speak against the LEAVE campaign during a recent visit. That was not a good idea and just a little too personal for some of those in the 52% camp.

I am sure Americans would not approve of our Prime Minister telling America how they should run their country. If he did, I would expect a far greater backlash than us Brits gave to President Obama!

You'd better hope that Donald Trump doesn't become the next U.S. President.

As much as you guys didn't like Pres. Obama warning you, he was right. You should have listened!

[roger]

And yet ultimately the question was "who do we want to be governed by"? Did we want to run ourselves or did we want to increasingly be governed by an unelected elite in Brussels?

Over the past few hundred years blood has been spilt when people have revolted over this apparently trivial issue, and sometimes the "oppressors" have been less oppressive than The EU has been to its client states [[a little spat in and around 1776 comes to mind here), this hasn't stopped future generations from stating how proud they are to have gained their independence all those years ago, or heartily singing anthems to that effect.

The "remain" camp, of course, tried to gloss over all of this and attempted to present the referendum as a test with the question being "if these are the facts will you be be better off if The UK leaves or remains in The EU?" Anyone who came up with the "wrong" answer would find themselves being reviled as being insular/backward etc. etc. "The Facts" of course, were wildly exaggerated.

Furthermore, although The EU likes to portray itself as a centre of culture and prosperity their continuing drive to further integration [[in particular the imposition of The Euro currency over half of the continent) is causing immense economic hardship for those outside of the core areas located in and around Germany, as can be seen by their own website's page on unemployment rates throughout the different regions of Europe ....

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Unemployment_statistics_at_regional_level

Back in the early 1980s British Pop/Reggae act UB40 famously had a hit song called "The One In Ten" that protested about the high rates of unemployment that were endemic in The UK at that time, a modern day UB40 from countries that use The Euro such as France, Finland or Italy could similarly record the same song today, if they were in Spain or Greece they could sing about "The One In Four" or even "The One In Three". And yet, although we didn't help to create this mess we are expected to help pay for it as "Good Europeans".

And, in spite of the fact that we do elect members to a "European Parliament" this organisation doesn't propose any legislation, it is little more than a forum for rubber-stamping proposals made by an organisation called "The European Commission" [[effectively "The European Parliament" has a purpose very similar to The House of Lords in the UK Parliament in London). The European Commission itself is not elected, it is appointed by a President who himself is appointed behind doors by the leaders of the National Governments, as is eloquently explained by The EUs own website ...

http://ec.europa.eu/about/index_en.htm

Not exactly government of the people, for the people and by the people is it??!!

Anyway, in spite of all the whining from those who think we got the question "wrong" it does look at the moment that Brexit will occur, however The EU has a long and shameful history of ignoring similar votes concerning "ever closer union" over the last two decades in countries such as Ireland, France and The Netherlands so I would suggest you all still hold your breath for the next two months.

Anyway, I'm about to invoke my own Article 50 as shortly I shall be heading out to The Pub to watch the England football team play against The Mighty Iceland [[that is the Non-EU island nation in the North Atlantic and not The Supermarket) :)

Roger

[theboyfromxtown]

You'd better hope that Donald Trump doesn't become the next U.S. President.

As much as you guys didn't like Pres. Obama warning you, he was right. You should have listened!

Soulster

I am quite capable of making my own decisions and I don't need for anyone to be telling me what I should or should not be doing.

[StuBass1]

Sorry to say the EU was initially set up largely as a mechanism to redistribute wealth and to redistribute people. Countries like Germany needed cheap labor as it's population aged and took advantage of cheaper labor by literally importing people who then spread to other countries, bringing wages down for the established working class and worse yet...setting up multi-cultural enclaves instead of integrating and assimilating into those societies creating many of the problems we face today...IKEA is literally running out of mattresses in Sweden to provide them for the growing number of migrants there to take advantage of the generous social programs which will eventually bring down THAT economy...Productive countries like Germany and the UK were then placed in the position of bailing out non-productive countries like Greece and soon Spain...While the EU has taken it upon itself to dictate to it's members how to govern their economy's, politics, and judiciaries...it has no significant military component to enforce it's domain when call for...The genocide in the Balkans is a prime example of that...While millions of people were being displaced, threatened and killed right under the nose of the EU...the EU sat on it's hands...It took NATO to come in and bring peace to that region...The UK, without the EU will still be a formidable economic force on the European and World stage as uncertain markets will settle and rise again, and they are definitely not leaving NATO...the one organization they actually need to belong to...If regaining their sovereignty means a little longer wait when they travel through Europe...so be it...It's just not in the British psyche to conform and march to the beat that others require of it...

[roger]

Don't agree there with your analysis of why The EU [[originally The European Economic Community) was first set up StuBass. Its roots were in an agreement in the early/mid 1950s to set up a trading area for Iron/Steel/Coal with the very noble ideal that this would prevent squabbling which might lead to another war. Also I don't agree that places such as Greece and Spain are "un-productive" .. it is just that they are "different" to places such as Germany as they have huge cultural differences and because of the imposition of The Euro Currency they have become un-competitive. In the good old days they would have been able to de-value their currencies [[thus making themselves competitive again) and they would have remained happy and fully employed, although they would not have been so materially prosperous as Germany etc. As they now use The Euro they cannot do this.

As to the whole "immigration" thing ... as Europe recovered from WW2 there were shortages of labour, so the more prosperous countries started to recruit workers from abroad .. in The UK it was from Commonwealth countries such as India, Pakistan and Jamaica, in Holland it was from former Dutch Colonies such as Indonesia .. in Germany it was mainly from Turkey.

Unfortunately The EU is trying to make everyone in Europe "the same" by imposing common standards and regulations .. thus ignoring hundreds of years of cultural differences. Basically it doesn't work.

Totally agree with you about NATO .. although the "Eurofanatics" would have us believe that it is only the European Union "Project" that has kept the peace. Really you would need to live here to hear the nonsense that is spoken about this.

Anyway ... about to cook supper :)

Roger

[theboyfromxtown]

Roger

The Common Market was the term I first remember.

[roger]

Roger

The Common Market was the term I first remember.

Yep ... that was its common name .. the official name I'm sure was "The EEC - European Economic Community" which comprised of six nations ... [[France, Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg and italy) .. there was also EFTA [[The "European Free Trade Area") which comprised of seven countries The UK, Ireland, Switzerland, Denmark, Norway, Iceland and one other [[probably Liechtenstein). I'm sure it is all mentioned somewhere on the net. :)

[StuBass1]

Why immigration was way oversold as the reason for the brexit from the EU...Just one of many reasons...If you really want to know WHY the UK left the EU...the 14 minute video at the end of this article will answer all your questions...
https://panampost.com/luis-henrique-ball/2016/06/25/understanding-brexit-how-other-european-countries-caused-it-and-british-politics-made-it-inevitable/

[StuBass1]

Anytime a country like Greece where people complain if they have to work more than 30 hours per week and expect 2 month holidays...then go hat in hand to countries like Germany and the UK [[where work ethics demand hard work and sacrifice for economic success) for bailouts because their economy is uncompetitive with the rest of the world is more than a small cultural difference...it's an inevitable economic catastrophe waiting to happen...

[soulster]

Soulster

I am quite capable of making my own decisions and I don't need for anyone to be telling me what I should or should not be doing.

He wasn't telling you what to do, he was warning you, and he is right...for now.

I understand about sovereignty. We Americans fought you over it centuries ago, and it was probably pretty rough.

A lot of the message we are getting here about the motivation for Brexit is about your issues with immigration, largely from Mediterranean, East Asian, and Middle Eastern countries, amid worries of terrorist attacks. From what I have been reading, this has been largely blamed for the depressed economic issues. Is the rise of racial attacks on the rise a result of embolden racists who latched onto the Leaves?

[Jerry Oz]

Somebody posted this on FaceBook. England may as well be the US or Germany when things like this occur

Tom Bradbury
June 20 at 4:10am ·
The most perfect thing I have ever seen just happened on the replacement train bus service between Newport and Cwmbran:
White man sat in front of a mother and her son. Mother was wearing a niqab. After about 5 minutes of the mother talking to her son in another language the man, for whatever reason, feels the need to tell the woman "When you're in the UK you should really be speaking English."
At which point, an old woman in front of him turns around and says, "She's in Wales. And she's speaking Welsh."

[theboyfromxtown]

There are some very skewed misunderstandings of the issues affecting the UK at this time. I am not interested in knowing where they are coming from but I can see who is believing them.

[robb_k]

The £ has fallen, so I probably won't be buying many new imports. More seriously, food prices are likely to go sky high as we import so much.:[[

I remember we used to have continual problems with our Balance of Payments, but this wasn't so important when we were in Europe. With the erosion of our manufacturing base, I can't see invisible exports being enough for us to pay our way.:[[

I don't know how far the stock market is going to fall, but at the moment there must be a great increase in the massive deficits that there are in pension funds. Everybody's pensions could be in jeopardy.:[[

An additional problem is that our legal system is inextricably entwined with Europe now. After 40 years of Europe, I don't know how many generations it will take to disentangle them. I suspect lawyers will do well out of this.:[[

As far as Scotland is concerned, their independence referendum took place under the premise that the UK would remain a member of the EU. The Scots have every right to demand a new referendum, and there is little doubt in my mind that this time it would be successful, thus precipitating the breakup of the United Kingdom. England alone would have a permanent Conservative majority, and one-party rule is not good for any democracy.:[[

So honest man, be afraid. Be very afraid.:[[:[[:[[
11452
Exactly! Scotland, Northern Ireland, Wales and The isle of Man
will all ask for referenda, and ALL vote for independence, and all summarily join The EU. UK never wanted to join, proving it, by never joining The Euro. They let Germany, The Netherlands, Belgium and France pay to incorporate the poorer countries into the money system. Sweden and Denmark did the same. How can you have an effective economic union with multiple money systems?

I work for Disney in The Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden and Germany. I live and work in The Netherlands, Germany and Denmark. I get paid in Euros in The Netherlands and Germany, and arranged it so that The Danes and Swedes also pay me in Euros, because that is more convenient. But, then I must change money when living in Denmark and working there and in Sweden. I always lose money on those exchanges. We should have one single money system. I also travel in Norway and UK, and resent having to change money in those places.

The whole point of The EU was to make a large enough economic block to compete with USA, and avoid all the tariffs and high prices, and to allow people to move more freely, and have better work opportunities. Now, I'm afraid that The Scandinavian countries may follow England's lead, fearing that their countries will be swamped with refugees sneaking in from nearby EU countries.

[theboyfromxtown]

Somebody posted this on FaceBook. England may as well be the US or Germany when things like this occur

Tom Bradbury
June 20 at 4:10am ·
The most perfect thing I have ever seen just happened on the replacement train bus service between Newport and Cwmbran:
White man sat in front of a mother and her son. Mother was wearing a niqab. After about 5 minutes of the mother talking to her son in another language the man, for whatever reason, feels the need to tell the woman "When you're in the UK you should really be speaking English."
At which point, an old woman in front of him turns around and says, "She's in Wales. And she's speaking Welsh."

It's much more common for mothers [[of all skin colours) to do the complaining. I live near to a school for infants and those mothers get real stroppy when they see their own kids getting confused by the conversations of their friends in a language that is not English.

[roger]

11452
Exactly! Scotland, Northern Ireland, Wales and The isle of Man
will all ask for referenda, and ALL vote for independence, and all summarily join The EU.

You can't have studied the results of the referendum in much detail Robb, and I would suggest that you do so by looking at the BBC website results page ... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/politics/eu_referendum/results

You may be proved correct with Scotland, but in Northern Ireland the voting seemed to reflect the old Catholic/Nationalist versus Protestant/Unionist divide, with heavily Protestant areas voting "Leave" and heavily Catholic areas voting "Remain" ... I don't have exact figures but it looks to me like Catholics/Nationalists voted around 80/20 for "Remain" and Protestants/Unionists voted around 60/40 for "Leave".

Wales voted to Leave by about the same figure as The U.K. as a whole. The Isle of Man is not part of The UK and neither is it in The EU, exactly the same is the case for The Channel Islands [[Jersey and Guernsey), which you omitted to mention.


11452
UK never wanted to join, proving it, by never joining The Euro. They let Germany, The Netherlands, Belgium and France pay to incorporate the poorer countries into the money system. Sweden and Denmark did the same. How can you have an effective economic union with multiple money systems?

Well, when we joined in 1973 it was sold to the British public as joining a "Trading Area" and the idea that it would turn into some kind of uniform federal super-state was kept quiet, though at the time that idea did have some appeal to me.

Your enthusiasm for a single currency throughout The EU is something that I've not heard in The UK since 2009 [[though I've not had a serious conversation with any Liberal-Democrats about the issue recently). It may all sound very noble and good-intentioned but the simple truth is that in order for it to work the currency has to be used in places with broadly similar economies and cultures, within The Eurozone this is simply not the case which has led to immense strains on The Euro. Basically Greece, Spain and Portugal are in dire-straits, Italy, France, Ireland and Cyprus are struggling and even Finland is having problems.

Also, currently The UK pays much more into The EU than it gets back, so I don't understand why you think that we have not been paying to "incorporate the poorer countries into the money system". Needless to say if/when we leave the other countries that pay more into The EU than they receive back [[notably Germany and The Netherlands) will have to pick up the bill unless they too leave.


11452
I work for Disney in The Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden and Germany. I live and work in The Netherlands, Germany and Denmark. I get paid in Euros in The Netherlands and Germany, and arranged it so that The Danes and Swedes also pay me in Euros, because that is more convenient. But, then I must change money when living in Denmark and working there and in Sweden. I always lose money on those exchanges. We should have one single money system. I also travel in Norway and UK, and resent having to change money in those places.

This reminds me of the sort of thing we were told was a good reason to join The Euro in The UK back in the late 1990s. We were told of a hypothetical British tourist driving through Europe on his way to holiday in Italy or Greece who changed his money each time he crossed a border, changing his Pounds for French Franks as he entered France, then into Belgian Franks as he entered Belgium, then into Dutch Guilders, German Marks etc. etc. Needless to say by the time he arrived at his destination he had little left, as he would lose 5% each time on currency exchange charges. Needless to say this is an argument that I've not heard in a while.


11452
The whole point of The EU was to make a large enough economic block to compete with USA, and avoid all the tariffs and high prices, and to allow people to move more freely, and have better work opportunities. Now, I'm afraid that The Scandinavian countries may follow England's lead, fearing that their countries will be swamped with refugees sneaking in from nearby EU countries.

Which is part of the issue, strange though it may seem a large number of people in The UK actually like The Americans and have an inherent distrust of some of our neighbours on The Continent. As a result they are very wary of anything designed to "take on The Americans". I did used to be very "Pro-Europe" in the 1970s and 1980s, but the way they have imposed The Euro on countries which were clearly unsuited to it has managed to kill off any enthusiasm I used to have.

Roger

[StuBass1]

And who is gong to fund the more than generous social entitlement programs that Scotland has become so accustomed to which are currently paid for, lock, stock, and barrel by the Brits with Scottish oil sitting at a meager $50 per barrel. Does Merkel have a secret stash set aside with billions to cover those costs???...I think when faced with that reality, Scotland will think better of going it alone to join an organization which will likely get hit with a domino effect when movements like Czechout, Frexit, and the other more successful economies get tired of propping up the failed economies like Greece, Spain, etc...The EU is a socialist experiment with a few non elected officials setting policy affecting 60% of the lives of the citizens of it's member countries...Yes...the failed economies may like it for the opportunity to get bailed out by the wealthier countries...but the citizens of the more successful governments will see the negative aspects of what the EU has wrought. If they want to see the result of Socialist economies where great natural resources are present...they need to take a look at Venezuela, where the Hugo Chavez/Sean Penn style economy have Venezuelans out in the streets protesting the hunger they are experiencing due to a lack of food...and when they protest...the Venezuelan authorities handle the problem of protesters by just shooting them...All the while...sitting on one of the largest oil reserves in the world, and failing to account for the decline in oil prices through intelligent economic planning. Hugo Chavez SISTER remains the wealthiest person in Venezuela...Good luck EU...Merkel got her cheap labor...now the price tag is becoming a reality in areas of failed economic growth, uncontrolled immigration with unfettered multi-culturalism, and political upheavel...

[Jerry Oz]

Which is part of the issue, strange though it may seem a large number of people in The UK actually like The Americans and have an inherent distrust of some of our neighbours on The Continent. As a result they are very wary of anything designed to "take on The Americans". I did used to be very "Pro-Europe" in the 1970s and 1980s, but the way they have imposed The Euro on countries which were clearly unsuited to it has managed to kill off any enthusiasm I used to have.

Roger
The "distrust" between the US and Mexico [[mostly) and/or Canada are canards fabricated mostly by one megalomaniac in his quest for the presidency. To wit, there are a lot of issues in the UK with the EU, one of the most prevalent being with immigrants employed in English jobs and lowering wages. Undocumented immigrants in the US actually keep the economy afloat by taking jobs that no American wants for pay that none would accept.

If Trump wins, I hope he starts with all of the immigrants who work on the farms and in custodial and landscaping roles first. At a time when there is a deep divide within the Democratic party about raising the minimum wage to $15/hour [[with zero reason to believe the Republicans will be inclined to do so), can you imagine all of a sudden filling those extremely difficult $4/hour jobs with US citizens who are "suffering" through a period with 5.8% unemployment?

It won't happen. There are simply too many available jobs that pay more for less work and frequently in air conditioned environments. The anti-immigrant angst and generally xenophobic sentiment that is portrayed in the media is pure BS and nobody on television or in press is honest enough to discuss it for what it is: an economic reality, not a legal or social problem. Prices for everything will skyrocket without those workers and Donald J. Trump and every one of his shills knows it.

The rate of crimes committed by undocumented immigrants is lower than that committed by Americans in general. The fervor for building a wall and kicking them all out was kicked off solely by the fearmongering son of perdition whose true agenda is to strengthen the grips of the American apartheid that we're already experiencing and ensure that White people will remain in power after they are no longer the majority in the next 30 years.

[Roberta75]

The "distrust" between the US and Mexico [[mostly) and/or Canada are canards fabricated mostly by one megalomaniac in his quest for the presidency. To wit, there are a lot of issues in the UK with the EU, one of the most prevalent being with immigrants employed in English jobs and lowering wages. Undocumented immigrants in the US actually keep the economy afloat by taking jobs that no American wants for pay that none would accept.

If Trump wins, I hope he starts with all of the immigrants who work on the farms and in custodial and landscaping roles first. At a time when there is a deep divide within the Democratic party about raising the minimum wage to $15/hour [[with zero reason to believe the Republicans will be inclined to do so), can you imagine all of a sudden filling those extremely difficult $4/hour jobs with US citizens who are "suffering" through a period with 5.8% unemployment?

It won't happen. There are simply too many available jobs that pay more for less work and frequently in air conditioned environments. The anti-immigrant angst and generally xenophobic sentiment that is portrayed in the media is pure BS and nobody on television or in press is honest enough to discuss it for what it is: an economic reality, not a legal or social problem. Prices for everything will skyrocket without those workers and Donald J. Trump and every one of his shills knows it.

The rate of crimes committed by undocumented immigrants is lower than that committed by Americans in general. The fervor for building a wall and kicking them all out was kicked off solely by the fearmongering son of perdition whose true agenda is to strengthen the grips of the American apartheid that we're already experiencing and ensure that White people will remain in power after they are no longer the majority in the next 30 years.

Theres no going be any wall and Mexico isnt going to pay for any wall. Trump is full of hot air and dangerous fearmongering.

[StuBass1]

Actually while I agree with Roberta that Trump will never be elected President...we have two real "winners" [[please detect my sarcasm) running for President this time around...Actually...a couple of crapburgers...but the Dems have the ground game and a naturally built in electoral advantage while Trump will say to many stupid things to get elected...That aside, and to Jerry's assertions...Amazing that while hundreds of thousands of people left the workforce last month, to be replaced by only about 35,000 while the so called "unemployment rate actually DECLINED should tell us that the real unemployment rate in the United States in well into the double digits and actually approaching 20%...If we reported unemployment like Canada or many other countries, that's where our unemployment rate would be. I just had major surgery and haven't worked in some time...yet according to our labor statistics...I'm EMPLOYED...So many people have given up looking for work due to the economy, yet they are also counted as EMPLOYED...and to Jerrys point...Americans real income has stagnated and actually declined in recent years...All cheap labor has done has pushed down wages in those jobs to where Americans don't want them due to people willing to perform them for bargain basement wages. If a guy is willing to clean septic tanks for 8 bucks an hour...yes...few Americans are going to accept those jobs...but if there are not people willing to do those jobs for 8 bucks an hour...then the wages for those jobs will go to 15-20 bucks an hour and plenty of Americans will find cleaning septic tanks a much more desirable employment opportunity...Simple economics...People aren't doing jobs Americans don't want...American workers are not accepting jobs that others will accept for crap wages for doing crap work...Lose every low pay and benefit worker and I guarantee you...septic tanks will be cleaned because Americans know their shit...

[Jerry Oz]

SutBass, I'll go further than that: Lose those jobs and we'll go from that double digit real unemployment rate to a state of overemployment. If jobs become a buyers' market from the standpoint of the employees, then we'll have a problem with people trading jobs as well as with inflation.

The people at the top of the economic ladder know this. They've been using undocumented workers for over a century, Trump included to keep from paying market-based wages. That's the true reason why they oppose almost all paths to citizenship, even for people who have lived and worked here for decades. They breathe lies to keep the folks at the bottom from realizing that globalization is not the cause for the "good jobs going to Mexico and China", but rather their greed. They also breathe lies to make people think that they can buy a 79 cent head of iceburg lettuce with an American picking it instead of someone else.

The same economic reality that many had the day after the Brexit vote is what we would experience the day after we built a wall and kicked them all out: Our economy and way of life rests on these people. We all know it, but we won't talk about it in public discourse of the "problem". If it's about principle, then I say do; kick them all out, but they won't. The only principles involved are the economy weighed against the increasing diversity of the population.

And my only disagreement with your view is that I believe a hungry man will grab a lifeline, even if it's for $12.50/hour but I think many or most of those who have fallen out of the labor market aren't willing to work for less than they think they deserve. Even if it's enough to fulfill their needs. I can't blame them or judge them. But if I had to, I'd work as hard for McDonald's as I did for the job that I quit two years ago that paid me four times as much.

When the US lost the production and manufacturing jobs, we shifted heavily to a service-based economy and people are only going to pay for the service if it's cheaper and more convenient than if they can do it themselves. It's my opinion that the cost of service combined with a glut of people willing to perform it is what has kept wages down.

[StuBass1]

Let me give you an example which highlights your last point Jerry...not sure if it agrees or disagrees with your position...However, a person very close to me who immigrated to the United States legally after years of applying and spending tens of thousands of dollars who finally got permission to come to work with her husband...Husband a Phd was able to get a college teaching job, and she, with a masters level degree also a private teacher...Two people coming to contribute to our society and culture having to sign a statement as a condition of work permits that they would never apply for any federal economic assistance and would support themselves...Those same people had to go through all of this while watching "undocumented" or illegal people just walking across the border...some seeking work, others involved in smuggling or other illegal activities...while Los Angeles Country alone spends nearly 2 BILLION dollars per year on services and other costs directly related to the so called undocumented immigrants...Being a taxpayer in Los Angeles county...I can think of many many more pressing needs to spend that 2 Billion dollars on then people who crossed the border illegally, utilized our services, and we paid for their benefits, incarcerations, legal and judicial fees, etc...My question is...how would you feel if you waited years, spent tens of thousands of dollars to come here legally, and then just watched as people walked across the border at will and even being given taxpayer resources for their law breaking efforts???...I have many immigrant friends...most here legally, some perhaps illegally...I have financially helped a couple of them directly to be able to remain here. That said...we have a serious problem going back decades...I don't believe that calling for defined borders is racism...although some people would call anyone who wants our borders protected "racist"...I've come to the conclusion that when people just use the "racism" argument...it's like a quarterback throwing the ball out of bounds in the closing seconds of a close game...It stops the clock for any rational and intelligent discussion on the topic, usually because the accuser has run out of logical arguments...As Edmund Burke I believe stated..."Personal attack is the last refuge of the scoundrel who has nothing of substance to say"...I actually had a guy from Berlin, Germany call me a racist because I was trying to explain some of the reasons the British voted for the Brexit...I responded to this A-Hole that I was out demonstrating for civil rights in the 60's while this jerk was still in lederhosen...and he had some nerve sitting there at the epicenter of Kristallnacht talking about MY alleged racism LOL...There's even more to this story which exposes some of the problems of undocumented people coming here, but I won't go into that now...This first part of the story should end all the discussion ...

[theboyfromxtown]

Hungry men in the UK don't work, they make much more money from begging on the streets. A guy in my apartment block would dress like a down and out and take his dirty smelly blanket to the local train station [[Old Street) at 7:00 every morning and return at about 10:00. More recently, I've seen fights when someone pinches a good patch

In London, we also have big problems with women from the former Eastern Bloc counties who walk the length of the train carriages carrying a baby that is "sleeping" [[it's actually drugged). In particular, they patrol the Heathrow airport area pouncing on tourists who will be making their way into Central London.

France has lots of begging too. However, in the south of France, the beggars have dogs because it limits the powers of the police.

[144man]

Petitions mean absolutely nothing in Great Britain...They have petitions for virtually everything. The House Of Commons would still have to explain to a clear majority why they reversed the will of the people...They even had a petition to ban Donald Trump...That one accomplished nothing too...LOL

Any petition that gets 100.000 signatures has to be considered for debate in Parliament.

[StuBass1]

The number of males from the middle east immigrating to Sweden [[especially to marry ugly Swedish women for the benefits) is becoming a major problem...Sweden guarantees them a monthly stipend, so they don't have to work to survive...That's why I say that IKEA in Sweden is literally running out of mattresses...

[theboyfromxtown]

Let me give you an example which highlights you last point Jerry...not sure if it agrees or disagrees with your position...However, a person very close to me who immigrated to the United States legally after years of applying and spending tens of thousands of dollars who finally got permission to come to work with her husband...Husband a Phd was able to get a college teaching job, and she, with a masters level degree also a private teacher...Two people coming to contribute to our society and culture having to sign a statement as a condition of work permits that they would never apply for any federal economic assistance and would support themselves...Those same people had to go through all of this while watching "undocumented" or illegal people just walking across the border...some seeking work, others involved in smuggling or other illegal activities...while Los Angeles Country alone spends nearly 2 BILLION dollars per year on services and other costs directly related to the so called undocumented immigrants...Being a taxpayer in Los Angeles county...I can think of many many more pressing needs to spend that 2 Billion dollars on then people who crossed the border illegally, utilized our services, and we paid for their benefits incarcerations, legal and judicial fees, etc...My question is...how would you feel if you waited years, spent tens of thousands of dollars to come here legally, and then just watched as people walked across the border at will and even being given taxpayer resources for their law breaking efforts???...I have many immigrant friends...most here legally, some perhaps illegally...I have financially helped a couple of them directly to be able to remain here. That said...we have a serious problem going back decades...I don't believe that calling for defined borders is racism...although some people would call anyone who wants our borders protected "racist"...I've come to the conclusion that when people just use the "racism" argument...it's like a quarterback throwing the ball out of bounds in the closing seconds of a close game...It stops the clock for any rational and intelligent discussion on the topic, usually because the accuser has run out of logical arguments...I actually had a guy from Berlin, Germany call me a racist because I was trying to explain some of the reasons the British voted for the Brexit...I responded to this A-Hole that I was out demonstrating for civil rights in the 60's while this jerk was still in lederhosen...and he had some nerve sitting there at the epicenter of Kristallnacht talking about MY alleged racism LOL...There's even more to this story which exposes some of the problems of undocumented people coming here, but I won't go into that now...This first part of the story should end all the discussion ...

StuBass1

I am on the same wavelength.

Those in the "Leave" camp are now being treated disgracefully by the "Remain" camp and it's a great shame. Worse, that word "racist" is constantly being thrown into any discussion, for the reasons you stated, to stop any rational discussion. It's even been used on this thread.

As much as I hated Thatcher, this is one time when even I would have wanted her to take control. Cameron has let us down and I hope he is shamed in history books as the one that bottled out of leading his country when he was most needed.

[StuBass1]

Any petition that gets 100.000 signatures has to be considered for debate in Parliament.
Parliament does NOTHING but debate...they debate EVERYTHING...even Donald Trump [[LOL)...however, it means nothing, and Great Britain is NEVER going to refute the 52% of their voters who voted in favor of Brexit...It would undermine Britain's entire system of rule by electoral majority. That debate will be nothing more than a bunch of hoots, ahems, hear hear's, and OOOoooo's attempting to drown out speakers like every other controversial debate in the chambers of Parliament...

[144man]

Winging Brats the lot of them .. totally pathetic .. and these people think they are being "Democratic" and are "fighting for inclusiveness/liberal values" etc. etc. etc .. the hypocrisy is appalling .. and the worst thing is that I know people who have signed this!!

I might have been inclined to agree with you except for the fact that , ironically, the petition was started by Oliver Healey, a pro-Brexit campaigner who was expecting a narrow Remain victory.

[Jerry Oz]

StuBass, I don't disagree with your viewpoint at all. But I'll make note of the following wherein I think we see things differently:

My question is...how would you feel if you waited years, spent tens of thousands of dollars to come here legally, and then just watched as people walked across the border at will and even being given taxpayer resources for their law breaking efforts???...There is a reason why the couple you referenced aren't working in the fields. That reason is also why they went the right way about coming to the States. The problem isn't with the workers, by the way. It's with the employers willing to exploit them and the system that is willing to look the other way. They wouldn't go through that effort to pick oranges one month, apples the next, and cabbage in a state 500 miles away after that.

I've read that ICE schedules its raids on factories in such a way that they never impact the operation of those facilities. They give the managers advance notice and won't hit the same place again for years. The company might receive a token fine. The government and private industry are complicit in the crime, but it's the worker on whom we focus our enforcement efforts. It's like the drug war. Arresting the druggies isn't slowing down use, so maybe it should be reevaluated.

That said...we have a serious problem going back decades...I don't believe that calling for defined borders is racism...although some people would call anyone who wants our borders protected "racist"...I've come to the conclusion that when people just use the "racism" argument...it's like a quarterback throwing the ball out of bounds in the closing seconds of a close game...It stops the clock for any rational and intelligent discussion on the topic, usually because the accuser has run out of logical arguments...
Closing the borders is not, in and of itself, racism. Racism is what you call it when instead of focusing your reasons on the truth, you describe an entire class of people as murderers and rapists as your reason for wanting to do so. The problem is not how many Mexican criminals we have to contend with; we have a ridiculous amount of Americans doing much more and worse. It's not the jobs that they take; Americans don't want the jobs that they have. The "problem" is that politicians need to stoke the flames to get voters excited and whether they are racist or not, race plays a HUGE role in politics.

By the way, it'll cost a lot of money to maintain the wall [[forget trying to get Mexico to pay for it). You might want to evaluate how much of your tax dollars are being spent on services for illegal immigrants compared to how much will be spent to keep them out. By the way, the vast majority of them actually work for a living, so whether they are paying taxes or not, their employers are. Consequently, they are actually footing the bill for a lot of those services in Los Angeles and elsewhere.

[StuBass1]

StuBass1

I am on the same wavelength.

Those in the "Leave" camp are now being treated disgracefully by the "Remain" camp and it's a great shame. Worse, that word "racist" is constantly being thrown into any discussion, for the reasons you stated, to stop any rational discussion. It's even been used on this thread.

As much as I hated Thatcher, this is one time when even I would have wanted her to take control. Cameron has let us down and I hope he is shamed in history books as the one that bottled out of leading his country when he was most needed.
As the link I posted above clearly points out...The UK was out and out lied to when they initially agreed to join the EU...The EU turned into a bunch of unelected bureaucrats making the decisions which affect about 60% of the day to day realities of British life as well as many of the legal and judicial realities in the UK...In other words...Brits gave away their sovereignty under false pretenses to an organization consisting of career politicians...many of whom are only in their positions because they lost elections in their home countries...Their military is a complete joke, so any mutual defense pacts are ridiculous as was clearly illustrated in the Balkans crisis when NATO had to move in...and the UK is certainly entitled to continue their free trade policies...EU or not...That said...the UK can now decide how it will assist countries like Greece who through their own irresponsibility went belly up, and what to do in their own country about immigrants and who will enter their country and under what circumstances...In other words...The UK reclaimed control of their every day lives and returned to a system that served them well for close to 1,000 years...

[Jerry Oz]

StuBass1

I am on the same wavelength.

Those in the "Leave" camp are now being treated disgracefully by the "Remain" camp and it's a great shame. Worse, that word "racist" is constantly being thrown into any discussion, for the reasons you stated, to stop any rational discussion. It's even been used on this thread.Please click the link below. You'll find an American tourist in Manchester being harassed on a tram. "You're a dirty little immigrant. Get off back to Africa." Consider the fact that the person was neither an immigrant nor from Africa and explain to me why the people doing the yelling are not racists. Anybody who makes an assumption [[positive or negative) based on race and acts on that assumption is a racist. It may not describe you, but do not pretend that race is not a significant reason for the sentiment.
http://crooksandliars.com/cltv/2016/06/british-teenagers-hurl-abuse-american

Just as it was in the earlier example of someone being told to speak English in the UK when they were speaking Welsh in Wales. Had the person not had Islamic clothing and probably a darker complexion, that conversation would not have occurred. People who deny racism exists are the ones who perpetuate it, not those who see it and call it out, even when you don't think it is warranted.

[StuBass1]

Jerry...I absolutely agree that employers exploiting illegal immigrants and the system should be subject to not only fines...but jail terms in some cases. I can say that as someone who employed many people in Los Angeles, that the paperwork and documentation necessary to legally employ ANYONE is quite cumbersome to prove legality to work.. Obviously, there are forged documents and some employers who ignore the law, and they should be penalized...and heavily...Funny to me also that from people I'm aware of who claim to be the anti-racist and pro-immigrant leftist types that many of them are the ones who will utilize illegal immigrant labor in their fancy homes in a heartbeat...Our immigration system is broken and needs to be fixed, but we can't just throw our hands up in the air and ignore the vital need for extensive and secure border enforcement...

[roger]

I might have been inclined to agree with you except for the fact that , ironically, the petition was started by Oliver Healey, a pro-Brexit campaigner who was expecting a narrow Remain victory.

Yes ... so I found out a couple of days back. Hilarious isn't it!! :)

Mind you, there are still forces out there that want to declare the result of the referendum invalid for various reasons ... not enough people voted [[even though a turnout of 72% is very high by the standards of UK elections), people didn't know what they were voting for, the "Leave" team lied [[apparently we are supposed to believe that all the claims of the "Remain" side were 100% true), a lot of people only voted "Leave" as a joke, people who voted "Leave" weren't properly educated, a similar vote today might give a different result .... etc. etc. etc.

As I've previously mentioned, The EU has had a long and shameful history of ignoring national referendums when it suited them, so until Article 50 [[the formal divorce notice) is actually invoked I'm still prepared for some legal hiccup.

Roger

[StuBass1]

Please click the link below. You'll find an American tourist in Manchester being harassed on a tram. "You're a dirty little immigrant. Get off back to Africa." Consider the fact that the person was neither an immigrant nor from Africa and explain to me why the people doing the yelling are not racists. Anybody who makes an assumption [[positive or negative) based on race and acts on that assumption is a racist. It may not describe you, but do not pretend that race is not a significant reason for the sentiment.
http://crooksandliars.com/cltv/2016/06/british-teenagers-hurl-abuse-american

Just as it was in the earlier example of someone being told to speak English in the UK when they were speaking Welsh in Wales. Had the person not had Islamic clothing and probably a darker complexion, that conversation would not have occurred. People who deny racism exists are the ones who perpetuate it, not those who see it and call it out, even when you don't think it is warranted.
I would never condone any overt racist act anywhere, anecdotal or not...But with tens and hundreds of millions of people in any given country...I'm not going to look at the actions of a few moronic knuckleheads and assume that they represent an entire political movement [[although I'm all for dealing harshly with those individuals), anymore than I look at the idiots from PETA or Code-Pink , or other fanatical far left idiots and assume that they represent all left of center thinking here in America...

[StuBass1]

Lets see...Dow Jones up 250 points today and the S&P set a 4 month record increase...So goes that economic calamity caused by Brexit we've been warned about :p

[theboyfromxtown]

Please click the link below. You'll find an American tourist in Manchester being harassed on a tram. "You're a dirty little immigrant. Get off back to Africa." Consider the fact that the person was neither an immigrant nor from Africa and explain to me why the people doing the yelling are not racists. Anybody who makes an assumption [[positive or negative) based on race and acts on that assumption is a racist. It may not describe you, but do not pretend that race is not a significant reason for the sentiment.
http://crooksandliars.com/cltv/2016/06/british-teenagers-hurl-abuse-american

Just as it was in the earlier example of someone being told to speak English in the UK when they were speaking Welsh in Wales. Had the person not had Islamic clothing and probably a darker complexion, that conversation would not have occurred. People who deny racism exists are the ones who perpetuate it, not those who see it and call it out, even when you don't think it is warranted.

Jerry

I'm not denying that there are racists in the UK but I do not consider race to be a significant issue of Brexit. I also do not consider religion to be a significant issue of Brexit but there are some media folk who would want me to believe it is. That is just my personal opinion.

On my bus ride back from Islington today [[the home territory of Boris Johnson), a mother was shouting at the younger of her 2 little boys in Turkish in a way that made me suspect she must be scolding him. I have no idea why - they were on the bus when I got on. One woman and her friend clearly did not approve as they were making glib comments. Eventually, the mother could hear that they were calling her out. The scolding stopped when both mother and son turned to focus their attention on the two women. The woman who started making the comments was dark skinned but her friend was a much lighter complexion. The Turkish mother had all of her hair fully exposed and was not wearing any religious clothing.

[soulster]

Lets see...Dow Jones up 250 points today and the S&P set a 4 month record increase...So goes that economic calamity caused by Brexit we've been warned about :p I saw that, but, it ain't over.

[144man]

StuBass1

I am on the same wavelength.

Those in the "Leave" camp are now being treated disgracefully by the "Remain" camp and it's a great shame. Worse, that word "racist" is constantly being thrown into any discussion, for the reasons you stated, to stop any rational discussion. It's even been used on this thread.

As much as I hated Thatcher, this is one time when even I would have wanted her to take control. Cameron has let us down and I hope he is shamed in history books as the one that bottled out of leading his country when he was most needed.

John,

Boris Johnsof has disassociated himself with one of the Leave campaign posters because he considers it racist.

I agree that focusing on immigration is not in itself racist; but it has the unfortunate effect of encouraging extremists to jump on the bandwagon. There has already been an increase in racist graffiti since the result.

[soulster]

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/brexit-referendum/brexit-backlash-anger-fear-follow-u-k-s-shock-decision-n600881

[StuBass1]

The biggest factor promoting increasing racism is unfettered immigration into countries where people believe that their way of life, traditions, and institutions are under assault. One in five Germans are now of migrant origin and in 2014 rose an astonishing 3%. Add in the problem of so many of todays immigrants refusing to integrate and assimilate into the societies they are flocking to. That's where you get the so called "no-go" zones where even police and other authorities are afraid to enter as these societies within a society create their own institutions and laws...whether based on Sharia or just what we here would refer to as the wild wild west...Certainly immigration was a key factor in the recent Brexit vote, but absolutely not the only factor. The belief by many Brits that they are losing control of their nation with the most important decisions affecting their lives being made by career politicians from other countries in a foreign capital is still the primary reason for the Brexit vote...Back to immigration and racism or ethnocentrism...I have been warning for several years now that this free flow of immigrants into Europe was going to explode at some point. Controlled immigration is not the problem, has never been the problem either here in the U.S. or in Europe...however, when several European countries, in their quest for cheap labor actually encouraged the multi-culturalism that has impacted so many parts of Europe and when the EU stood idly by as waves of immigrants came by land and sea in the tens of thousands at a time and facilitated them while giving so called "host countries" little to no say as to how many immigrants, refugees, and suspected infiltrators they would help enable to enter the various EU member countries regardless of how the citizens of those countries felt about it...the racism and division we see today was bound to happen. NO great nation, society, culture, or even Empire going back centuries has ever survived multiple cultures, languages, traditions, or political boundaries for long without integration and assimilation by those new immigrants entering it...The closest I can think to that is Canada, where the French and English speaking factions have found a fairly stable accommodation, however, their cultures are quite similar and their laws and values are largely the same...Not like the recent immigrants to Germany, France, the UK, Sweden, etc...My biggest fear quite frankly is Germany where Merkel is the biggest proponent of the multi-cultural approach...much like Von Hindenburg as their leader in the 20's and into the 30's was quite friendly to the Jewish population there and allowed them to thrive and neither Jews nor the outside world imagined in their wildest dreams what the German people and government were capable of if convinced that their culture and way of life was under assault. Von Hindenburg then...much like possibly Merkel in a few years, could possibly give way to far right facist types who will point to the ever increasing number of assaults on women by middle eastern immigrants, a dramatic increase in crime rates in major cities, and one or two major terrorist attacks along with a serious economic crisis could likely in my opinion push Germany over the edge...After all...we've seen it there before and it's apparently in their national DNA...Until stability returns first of all to the middle east and northern Africa, decreasing the need for massive immigration, and the EU decides to crack down on the unfettered immigration we've seen in recent years and countries learn to provide their own workers by increasing wages within their countries...I do fear what will eventually happen...When a significant and growng percentage of Americans can nominate a candidate like Donald Trump for the highest office in our land based significantly on fears of more illegal immigration, multi-culturalism, and a decline in traditions and values...then it can happen anywhere. It's just a shame that the only alternative to Trump this time around is Hillary Clinton for reasons I'll not get into at this time...

[StuBass1]

Stocks surging again today...All the Brexit hysteria fears turning into rubbish...Dow up close to 300 and NASDAC up almost 100...and S&P up about 35 points... :)Predictions from the anti-Brexit leaders were nothing but scare tactics...Markets will rise and fall...Brexit notwithstanding...That has already run it's course as an issue in our markets...

[theboyfromxtown]

John,

Boris Johnsof has disassociated himself with one of the Leave campaign posters because he considers it racist.

I agree that focusing on immigration is not in itself racist; but it has the unfortunate effect of encouraging extremists to jump on the bandwagon. There has already been an increase in racist graffiti since the result.

I have been let down by Boris since the result and I'm now looking at Andrea Leadsom. I dont believe that a former REMAIN campaigner has total commitment to take us forward.

I agree that focusing on immigration does have an unfortunate effect but it needs to be tackled and not glossed over. Every debate that I saw had that topic on the agenda.

[soulster]

Stocks surging again today...All the Brexit hysteria fears turning into rubbish...Dow up close to 300 and NASDAC up almost 100...and S&P up about 35 points... :)Predictions from the anti-Brexit leaders were nothing but scare tactics...Markets will rise and fall...Brexit notwithstanding...That has already run it's course as an issue in our markets...

If you look again, the Dow plunged again. You're a little too quick with this. Step away from Fox news...LOL!

The markets are still very volatile because of this, and you're not going to see a lot of stability. The attack in Turkey probably didn't help, but don't get too smug.

[soulster]

I agree that focusing on immigration does have an unfortunate effect but it needs to be tackled and not glossed over. Every debate that I saw had that topic on the agenda.

One cannot deny that a lot of people voted to leave because of immigration issues. Just like here, the extremists latched on to Donald Trump because of his highly offensive anti-immigration stance. Racists can sniff that like nothing else!

[theboyfromxtown]

I heard someone put forward this hypothetical question in a debate.

How would America react to being told that it is now going to be run from Mexico, in a lavishly built office to be paid for by the American people. The rules will be made by unelected officials and there will be free movement of people between America and Mexico. The dollar will be replaced by the peso.

[StuBass1]

If you look again, the Dow plunged again. You're a little too quick with this. Step away from Fox news...LOL!

The markets are still very volatile because of this, and you're not going to see a lot of stability. The attack in Turkey probably didn't help, but don't get too smug.
You should look again Soulster my friend...While I agree that smugness is never a characteristic any investor should employ...DJ is up well over 100 points today, as are all the other exchanges, as we speak...It's on a three day recovery...Markets are always volatile...if they weren't...I'd take all my money and throw it into the exchange as would everyone else and we'd all get very wealthy :rolleyes:...Doesn't work like that, but over time, history has shown us that the market will always be on an upward trajectory and market investments should be based on a ten year growth pattern...not based on day to day fluxuations, except the losses on Friday made investing on Monday very favorable...That said, the scare tactics some here in our country, including some leaders in our government, tried to use to convince us to convince our British cousins to vote with the remain faction failed,and quite frankly...some of those arguments put forth were admittedly quite foolish...like we will have another country to have to negotiate with???...So freaking what???... And now those same politicians are backing down from their claims...I don't consider it any of my business to tell the British what to do with their government, except to say that centralized governments, expecially a model where politicians from other countries become the ruling party for the politics and policies of another country can never be a good thing any more than we would accept 60% of our governments policies being made in Canada and Honduras being at the epicenter of our judicial system which is exactly what the UK was dealing with... Illegal immigration is a problem in our country...Due to the policies of Merkel and the EU...LEGAL immigration became the huge problem in the UK...The electorate there just said...enough is enough...I doubt they'll be the last...The EU has turned into Merkels great experiment...

[StuBass1]

I heard someone put forward this hypothetical question in a debate.

How would America react to being told that it is now going to be run from Mexico, in a lavishly built office to be paid for by the American people. The rules will be made by unelected officials and there will be free movement of people between America and Mexico. The dollar will be replaced by the peso.
Very good analogy...Ultimately, the EU becomes a highly centralized economic model similar to the Hugo Chavez/Sean Penn model which is now predictably tearing Venezuala apart...Venezuela, with some of the most profitable oil reserves in the world didn't, like many other oil producing countries did...plan for the fluxuating downturn in oil prices due primarily to Chavez's economic ignorance...except he was smart enough to make sure his sister became the wealthiest person in Venezuela... Today...there are people starving in the streets of Venezuela and there is no food except for the political elite...and those protesting the governments policies are being shot in the streets by Venezuelan authorities...That's what Socialism has brought us each and every time it's been tried...No exceptions, except perhaps the "new wave" utopian model Bernie Sanders had promised us LOL...

[theboyfromxtown]

Stubass1

That hypothetical question arose during Obama's recent visit to London. Although it was not addressed to him directly, it was reported in the media and he [[or his aides) would have seen it, just like I did. Unsurprisingly, Obama never commented and it was suggested that it might have hit more than just a raw nerve.

[StuBass1]

Stubass1

That hypothetical question arose during Obama's recent visit to London. Although it was not addressed to him directly, it was reported in the media and he [[or his aides) would have seen it, just like I did. Unsurprisingly, Obama never commented and it was suggested that it might have hit more than just a raw nerve.
I sometimes think that our President sees the world [[at least the western world) in one tightly knit homogenous package [[with him at the head of it of course)...I think he's always had grander plans than just being President of The United States and could readily see himself as the President of some vast conglomeration between North America and the European Union...He as President and some sort of Merkel as his Vice President...Hmmm...LOL

[soulster]

I heard someone put forward this hypothetical question in a debate.

How would America react to being told that it is now going to be run from Mexico, in a lavishly built office to be paid for by the American people. The rules will be made by unelected officials and there will be free movement of people between America and Mexico. The dollar will be replaced by the peso.
The U.K. joining the E.U. happened decades ago. You make it sound like it was last week.

BTW, Mexico is in America. So is Canada. We are all three sovereign nations. We are talking to you from the U.S.. What you should be speaking of is sovereignty.

I see what you're saying, and I don't disagree, but didn't the U.K. become part of the E.U. in 1973, almost a decade after it formally applied for membership by a conservative?

[soulster]

I sometimes think that our President sees the world [[at least the western world) in one tightly knit homogenous package [[with him at the head of it of course)...I think he's always had grander plans than just being President of The United States and could readily see himself as the President of some vast conglomeration between North America and the European Union...He as President and some sort of Merkel as his Vice President...Hmmm...LOL

Again, dude: ease away from the wacko far-right conspiracy theorists. That idea is way out there!

[StuBass1]

The U.K. joining the E.U. happened decades ago. You make it sound like it was last week.

BTW, Mexico is in America. So is Canada. We are talking to you from the U.S..
So the UK was a member of the EU for a few decades based on the decisions of politicians at that particular time after governing themselves for close to 1,000 years...It took the Colonies over 150 years to get tired of being ruled by a foreign power and sending massive taxes overseas to prop up a monarchy, much like the current Brits got tired to living by rules and laws largely established in Brussels by politicians...many of whom are there only because they lost elections in their home countries...The fact that the UK are Islands around the rest of the European continent and we are landlocked with Mexico and Canada fails to add significance to the fact that Canada and Mexico are different country's than ours, different cultures and laws which we must abide by when we travel to those countries...however, those cultures and laws have no business impacting the laws established in 1787 by OUR Constitution, unless the Congress and the people HERE decide to change those laws through the amendment process...If we abided by Mexicos laws...we would imprison every illegal or "undocumented" immigrant who entered our country, because that's what they do...and obviously, we don't want to model our laws after the ineffective laws of a country that is largely run by drug cartels...As for Canada...their health care system is horrible...A person I know well was told to wait 9 months for a necessary surgical procedure...She happened to move here, and after a 90 day probation period with the employer provided medical insurance had the surgery within 3 weeks...It's horrible up there which is why those Canadians who can afford it come here and pay cash for their medical treatments...As for our new ACA...Without MASSIVE revenue increases [[meaning huge tax increases on all Americans), the system will crash within two years...Supporters shrugged off the largest health Insurance company, United Health Care, claiming that it's losses with the ACA were unsustainable when they announced they were pulling out of the California [[the largest health care market in America) and just did...NOW, Blue Cross, the company with the most vested interest in the ACA has just announced that they can't sustain and are pulling out of the Minnesota exchange...I have a friend whose wife has a huge job Anthem Blue Cross and was actually acting CEO for a brief period...When the ACA first came in they were flying high...built a condo in Maui where they allowed her to work from 6 months of the year, along with their Los Angeles area house, and the condo they bought for their kid in Las Vegas...That was when the dollars from the ACA were flowing in and they hadn't paid much out yet and bonus plans to employees were most generous for a brief period of time...A couple of years later...Anthem Blue Cross is cutting back drastically as the bills coming in are not keeping pace with the premiums coming in...My friends, who have spent the majority of their adult lives in Southern California might be forced to move to the Blue Cross home office in Indiana...Sucks, but it's all been predictable...

[StuBass1]

Again, dude: ease away from the wacko far-right conspiracy theorists. That idea is way out there!
Didn't say it would happen...just what I think the President [[and maybe Merkel) dream about at night...That's what the "LOL" was for...LOL

[StuBass1]

Stubass1

That hypothetical question arose during Obama's recent visit to London. Although it was not addressed to him directly, it was reported in the media and he [[or his aides) would have seen it, just like I did. Unsurprisingly, Obama never commented and it was suggested that it might have hit more than just a raw nerve.
Again...my buddy Soulster's far-right-whacko -conspiracy's notwithstanding...I think this President, and many of his supporters would go for it, so long as this President was in charge of it...despite not considering what would happen when another party ultimately came into power...That's the problem with all "authoritarian" based governments...Someday, someone else may have the authority...LOL

[theboyfromxtown]

The U.K. joining the E.U. happened decades ago. You make it sound like it was last week.

BTW, Mexico is in America. So is Canada. We are all three sovereign nations. We are talking to you from the U.S.. What you should be speaking of is sovereignty.

I see what you're saying, and I don't disagree, but didn't the U.K. become part of the E.U. in 1973, almost a decade after it formally applied for membership by a conservative?

Soulster

If you do not wish to answer, that's not a problem.

[StuBass1]

So long as there's Wimbledon...all's well in Great Britain :cool:

[StuBass1]

Here's where the more successful countries in the EU, much like the UK, and immigration aside are eventually going to tire of their participation in the EU which today exists largely to boost Angela Merkel's self esteem and power base...Example # 1...My buddy Soulster [[whom I do have the utmost respect for), and I decide to open competing lemonade stands...He calls his Germany/Britain and I call mine Greece...Soulster spends a great deal of time seeking out the finest and freshest lemons, going from produce house to produce house while I take the easiest and cheapest lemons I can get my hands on...Soulster builds an impressive looking stand with clean comfortable seating and serves his lemonade in large and clean plastic cups while I go to Smart & Final and buy the cheapest Styrofoam cups they have in bulk and sell them from my clapboard stand I plastered together with 2X4's...Soulster keeps his stand open 8 hours a day, seven days a week while I keep my stand open 6 hours a day [[with an hour break in the middle) and close on weekends with a weeks vacation every month...Although Soulster works very hard...his work ethic pays off and he builds very successful enterprise. My lemonade stand can't compete with his, I'm not making any money, in fact I'm losing money, and then go to Soulster and ask him to start an organization where every lemonade stand owner is governed by common rules...and if one is unsuccessful or goes belly up...the more successful stands will bail him/her out, regardless of what type of work ethic the failing stand employs so Soulster ends up using his hard earned profits to cover my negligent losses. That's what Merkel [[and a few others) , for the sake of her political stature in Europe has allowed to happen [[particularly as pertains to Greece and now Spain)...That's why Venezuela is such a failure, because even IF person is willing to work harder than his neighbor...he/she is only going to be compensated by the government the same as his lazier next door neighbor thanks to government policy as to what level of productivity they will allow...The result...food riots in the streets of Caracas and other cities with protesters being shot by the authorities...

[theboyfromxtown]

It's actually all go in GB at the moment. Prime Minister contenders being stabbed in the back, Labour party leadership battles, Wimbledon umpires not being able to spot "out" balls....and there's even a little glimpse of sun in between the torrential rain.

As Harold McMillan said in 1957, Britons have never had it so good

[StuBass1]

It's actually all go in GB at the moment. Prime Minister contenders being stabbed in the back, Labour party leadership battles, Wimbledon umpires not being able to spot "out" balls....and there's even a little glimpse of sun in between the torrential rain.

As Harold McMillan said in 1957, Britons have never had it so good
And the Open Championship less than a month away at Royal Troon...Could this be the year that Monty finally wins it all???...:)

[theboyfromxtown]

On Facebook - CNN International asks

Post Brexit plan....how about the UK being the 51st State?

The free movement would mean no VISA's would be required!

[StuBass1]

On Facebook - CNN International asks

Post Brexit plan....how about the UK being the 51st State?

The free movement would mean no VISA's would be required!
We love ya UK...But not THAT much :p

[theboyfromxtown]

We love ya UK...But not THAT much :p

We're gutted Stubass1....

But we still love ya too!

[StuBass1]

We're gutted Stubass1....

But we still love ya too!
Great advice...You just got out of one bad marriage...don't go jump right into another...

[roger]

Here's where the more successful countries in the EU, much like the UK, and immigration aside are eventually going to tire of their participation in the EU which today exists largely to boost Angela Merkel's self esteem and power base...Example # 1...My buddy Soulster [[whom I do have the utmost respect for), and I decide to open competing lemonade stands...He calls his Germany/Britain and I call mine Greece...Soulster spends a great deal of time seeking out the finest and freshest lemons, going from produce house to produce house while I take the easiest and cheapest lemons I can get my hands on...Soulster builds an impressive looking stand with clean comfortable seating and serves his lemonade in large and clean plastic cups while I go to Smart & Final and buy the cheapest Styrofoam cups they have in bulk and sell them from my clapboard stand I plastered together with 2X4's...Soulster keeps his stand open 8 hours a day, seven days a week while I keep my stand open 6 hours a day [[with an hour break in the middle) and close on weekends with a weeks vacation every month...Although Soulster works very hard...his work ethic pays off and he builds very successful enterprise. My lemonade stand can't compete with his, I'm not making any money, in fact I'm losing money, and then go to Soulster and ask him to start an organization where every lemonade stand owner is governed by common rules...and if one is unsuccessful or goes belly up...the more successful stands will bail him/her out, regardless of what type of work ethic the failing stand employs so Soulster ends up using his hard earned profits to cover my negligent losses. That's what Merkel [[and a few others) , for the sake of her political stature in Europe has allowed to happen [[particularly as pertains to Greece and now Spain)...That's why Venezuela is such a failure, because even IF person is willing to work harder than his neighbor...he/she is only going to be compensated by the government the same as his lazier next door neighbor thanks to government policy as to what level of productivity they will allow...The result...food riots in the streets of Caracas and other cities with protesters being shot by the authorities...

This analogy is oh-so-incorrect Stu. In modern-day Europe the Lemonade stand that you have decided to call "Greece" would be expected to have exactly the same standards as the Lemonade stand you have decided to call "Germany" [[can't think where you have got those names from :)) though the actual hours the two operated, the prices they charged, and the wages they paid their staff, might differ. If the Lemonade stand called "Greece" went bust it would have to shut down.

Indeed the whole point is that Germany [[the country) has refused to bail out countries such as Greece and Spain after huge sectors of their economies have collapsed.

A better analogy might be to imagine a street with two men living opposite each other, let us call them Mr Greece and Mr Germany, both of whom run a small business. Mr Germany has a successful and very profitable business, Mr Greece's business is reasonably successful, not quite as profitable as Mr Germany's business but it makes enough for Mr Greece to live quite comfortably.

Then one day both Mr Greece and Mr Germany are given a credit card with a seemingly infinite credit limit and with very low interest rates. Mr Germany thinks that his business is doing OK already and decides to leave his credit card in a drawer in his house and not use it. Mr Greece however thinks that this is finally his chance to upgrade his business to the same standards as that of Mr Germany, so he uses his credit card to buy new equipment, plus a new car and a flash new suit to go along with the way he now wants to present himself to the world. For a few years it goes well for Mr Greece, but the sales of his company don't increase and he starts to get bills from his credit card company demanding interest payments. The interest payments cut into his company's profits and he finds that the only way he can make ends meet is to lay off many of his workers and close parts of his business. In the meantime Mr Germany's business is thriving and his profits are constantly increasing.

Mr Greece asks his credit card company to write off his debts, but the credit card company says they can only do that if Mr Germany pays Mr Greece's interest payments instead. As Mr Germany steadfastly refuses to do this Mr Greece is left to continue paying his ever increasing interest payments from his ever decreasing company products.

Roger

[StuBass1]

This analogy is oh-so-incorrect Stu. In modern-day Europe the Lemonade stand that you have decided to call "Greece" would be expected to have exactly the same standards as the Lemonade stand you have decided to call "Germany" [[can't think where you have got those names from :)) though the actual hours the two operated, the prices they charged, and the wages they paid their staff, might differ. If the Lemonade stand called "Greece" went bust it would have to shut down.

Indeed the whole point is that Germany [[the country) has refused to bail out countries such as Greece and Spain after huge sectors of their economies have collapsed.

A better analogy might be to imagine a street with two men living opposite each other, let us call them Mr Greece and Mr Germany, both of whom run a small business. Mr Germany has a successful and very profitable business, Mr Greece's business is reasonably successful, not quite as profitable as Mr Germany's business but it makes enough for Mr Greece to live quite comfortably.

Then one day both Mr Greece and Mr Germany are given a credit card with a seemingly infinite credit limit and with very low interest rates. Mr Germany thinks that his business is doing OK already and decides to leave his credit card in a drawer in his house and not use it. Mr Greece however thinks that this is finally his chance to upgrade his business to the same standards as that of Mr Germany, so he uses his credit card to buy new equipment, plus a new car and a flash new suit to go along with the way he now wants to present himself to the world. For a few years it goes well for Mr Greece, but the sales of his company don't increase and he starts to get bills from his credit card company demanding interest payments. The interest payments cut into his company's profits and he finds that the only way he can make ends meet is to lay off many of his workers and close parts of his business. In the meantime Mr Germany's business is thriving and his profits are constantly increasing.

Mr Greece asks his credit card company to write off his debts, but the credit card company says they can only do that if Mr Germany pays Mr Greece's interest payments instead. As Mr Germany steadfastly refuses to do this Mr Greece is left to continue paying his ever increasing interest payments from his ever decreasing company products.

Roger
I did enjoy your analogy Roger, however, if we'd like to reduce these examples to actual countries...I'd still maintain that Greece's failure is due largely to it's lack of productivity based on the output, but it is true that they work as many hours as most other Eurozone countries...Fewer though than the typical American...Between 1990 and 2008, Greece accumulated a 23% productivity gap with Germany, and increased as time went on...Greece's debt was a function of an economy which was non-productive [[probably next to Russia the most non-productive economy in all of Europe), non-competitive, and borrowing was the only way Greece could continue to function from an economic standpoint...If Greece's debt were eliminated tomorrow, the Greek economy would still not grow substantially enough to catch up with the rest of Europe according to leading economists... Greeks structural problems of low productivity and non-competitiveness [[which is what I was attempting to point out in my example) will keep Greek in the taker column for years to come...

[roger]

I did enjoy your analogy Roger, however, if we'd like to reduce these examples to actual countries...I'd still maintain that Greece's failure is due largely to it's lack of productivity based on the output, but it is true that they work as many hours as most other Eurozone countries...Fewer though than the typical American...Between 1990 and 2008, Greece accumulated a 23% productivity gap with Germany, and increased as time went on...Greece's debt was a function of an economy which was non-productive [[probably next to Russia the most non-productive economy in all of Europe), non-competitive, and borrowing was the only way Greece could continue to function from an economic standpoint...If Greece's debt were eliminated tomorrow, the Greek economy would still not grow substantially enough to catch up with the rest of Europe according to leading economists... Greeks structural problems of low productivity and non-competitiveness [[which is what I was attempting to point out in my example) will keep Greek in the taker column for years to come...

Well yes Stu, everthing you say I can agree with but you seem to be missing out one key factor, the common currency "The Euro" used throughout most of The EU. In my analogy the "unlimited credit card" was the moment that Greece joined The Euro. When that happened the Greeks, along with The Spanish, Irish, Portuguese and Italians, found themselves in a currency area with low interest rates that were very appropriate for Germany [[where people and institutions were reluctant to borrow) but not for less productive countries where people were keen to borrow but reluctant to understand the consequences. The temptation for The Greeks etc. to use their credit card was too much, they maxed out their limit and the bills have now arrived.

Fortunately for us in Britain there was enough resistance to joining the single currency in the late 1990s that our then chancellor, Gordon Brown, had enough popular support to be able to keep us out. This may be seen in certain quarters as "proof that we were never really interested in The EU Project to begin with", I prefer to see it as us [[together with the other refuseniks Denmark and Sweden, and later Poland, The Czech Republic and Poland) showing profound economic common sense.

Roger

[Jerry Oz]

I'd gladly take England as our 51st state, but only if somebody brings over the fish and chips.

Tonight.

[144man]

The 1975 referendum was to confirm our acceptance of continued membership of the EEC.
A lot more people would have voted against there and then if they had known it would change from a trading bloc into a political union.

[StuBass1]

Yes Roger...while not an expert on international currency...I have heard about stores in many EU countries with two price tags on merchandise...the local currency and the EU currency...Seems like an invitation to a mess to me...I am familiar with the two currency system use in Cuba...The currency used for tourists and top government officials and the currency used for the common Cubans...That is a scheme to keep the real money I the hands of the Cuban elite, and the worthless currency in the hands of the subjugated population where food and other commodities sold with that currency are very scarce...As for the Greeks...they should go to an Ouzo currency to work out their problems...

[StuBass1]

I'd gladly take England as our 51st state, but only if somebody brings over the fish and chips.

Tonight.
King George lll would be spinning in his grave...

[robb_k]

I'd gladly take England as our 51st state, but only if somebody brings over the fish and chips.

Tonight.
11456
I don't think USA would want that, and I don't think the Englanders would like that.

Now that I have a more well-rounded view of how The EU works [[from an outside point-of-view) I am more fearful that one of my 2 countries [[Canada) aims to have ever closer ties with The EU. And, my other one, The Netherlands, will pay an even greater share of the funding needed to integrate the lower-grade economies into The EU's money system, and also funding EU projects, with The UK dropping out, and, perhaps, other members following their lead.

I don't think it is practical to have a politically united and fully-integrated EU. But, I wouldn't want several countries dropping out of "the economic block".

[theboyfromxtown]

..As for the Greeks...they should go to an Ouzo currency to work out their problems...

LOLOLOLOLOL

Good one!

[robb_k]

LOLOLOLOLOL

Good one!
11457
They should make an Ouzo cartel, and cut off the supply of Ouzo, and create a panic. Like what the petrol producers did in 1974.

Would people change to Aqvavit?

[theboyfromxtown]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-36670066

Some might find this interesting

[StuBass1]

Americas power around the world has absolutely waned...That said, some consider that to be a good thing. Whether it is or not remains to be seen...Many allies are pleased that they've not been asked to participate in any military conflicts, however, several of those same countries have been victimized by terrorist attacks and have yet to see the results of several US led and inspired international actions...Agreement with and massive funding to Iran, non- action in Syria while Russian influence dramatically increases, Russian "reset" which unset as Russia increases it's influence in European countries bordering it as they invade neighboring sovereign countries with nary a peep from us, extremist groups increasing influence and power in Africa, and the fallen stature of our military around the world [[best illustrated by the recent events with the Iranian Navy) due to sgnificant funding cuts and a declining lack of morale...And on the domestic front...a well intentioned health care plan [[ACA) which is falling apart like a house of cards as the largest insurers United Health Care and Blue Cross) in America begin dropping out of the exchanges and stand close to a state of economic collapse without massively increasing revenues [[massive tax increases), increasing gun violence [[not the kind of guns Congress is fixated on) in all of our major cities, falling labor participation rate [[# of people in the economy who are ACTUALLY working), more poverty combined with class and racial disparity and conflict, massive national debt in which every child born will start life owing close to $100,000 before they leave the maternity ward, etc, etc...The next President will have his/her hands full...and unfortunately...in my opinion, neither of the current candidates are even remotely qualified, neither temperamentally, politically, or ethically to deal with the state our country finds itself in...Just my opinion...Of course as always, dissenting opinions are welcome, and even appreciated...

[heikki]

Hi!

My main concern is the failure in communication, in giving correct information. That enables all those populist parties to spread disinformation and for some reason the press and media are not able - or in many cases - not even willing to correct it.

E.G. in legislation EU only has a limited authority. It can give directives in customs union matters, but as a rule not in such fields as national health care, industry, culture, tourism, education etc. And all those directives are not made up in Brussels. They're initiated in a correspondent ministry of a member country, statements are asked from every other member country and finally they hold a vote on that suggestion in each parliament. It's only a very limited part of legislation concerning members of the EU that is passed in Brussels.

Also, the amount of money and personnel [[so called bureaucrats) are vastly exaggerated. The EU budget is about 1 % of the total GNP of all EU countries.

During these past 20 years Finland has benefitted a lot from EU and Euro. As a country dependent to a degree on export free trade is important for us. True, we've have economic difficulties lately due to our internal problems but mostly to sanctions against Russia [[which is our neighboring country and a big partner in trade - this has affected us most) - but now there are positive signs and according to the latest information the rise could be anything from 1-2 %. Not much, but it's plus, not minus.

I also wonder where do all those "Fixit" rumors come from. According to the recent poll, only about 25 % of our population wants a Fixit referendum. The rest are satisfied with the EU at the moment.

As I said, I see that the main problem lies in disinformation and failure of all the EU offices in correcting all the untrue information, which feeds populists, who are in it only for personal power - not common well-being.

I'm sorry for all the mistakes and non-fluent language. I'm in a bit of a hurry at this precise moment, but I'm one happy EU citizen.

Best regards
Heikki

[StuBass1]

And to be clear on this EU deal...now that the UK has voted to leave the EU...Chancellor Merkel is doing a quick about face on her years long effort to block Turkeys admission into the EU and plans to meet with the Turks to discuss the possibility of their admission. The Merkel stipulation...Turkey help her out on the immigration crisis in Germany which is bleeding both her power and popularity throughout her country as over a million immigrants have flooded into Germany from the Middle East and North Africa and she did nothing to stem the crisis [[and even encouraged it) and Turkey of course had virtually sealed it's borders to keep the problems within Syria and Greece [[who could not afford to feed even it's own people let alone a massive refugee influx) and the migrant crisis throughout Europe away from Turkish territory [[other than setting up refugee camos in an effort to keep the fleeing refugees from infiltrating it's population centers) until the EU made political concessions and funded Turkey with massive EU dollars to set up their refugee camps...Interesting though with the recent terrorist attack on their soil how Turkey is making yet another attempt to join the international community now that it realizes that terrorism can strike within it's borders too [[and it's paying off in EU currency)...including it's recent rapprochement with Israel following more than a decade of icy, almost non-existent relations...

[theboyfromxtown]

Heikki

I am sure that the public is being fed disinformation but there's little that can be done to that barring the EU opening up its offices up to public scrutiny. I do not see that happening.

When whistle blower Marta Andreasen spoke up abut the lack of an adequate accounting system and then refusing to sign off the annual accounts, it was clear to me that there was something seriously wrong. In my experience, whenever there is a problem to be solved, the answer is ALWAYS to follow the money and you'll get the answer.

[StuBass1]

Hi!

My main concern is the failure in communication, in giving correct information. That enables all those populist parties to spread disinformation and for some reason the press and media are not able - or in many cases - not even willing to correct it.

E.G. in legislation EU only has a limited authority. It can give directives in customs union matters, but as a rule not in such fields as national health care, industry, culture, tourism, education etc. And all those directives are not made up in Brussels. They're initiated in a correspondent ministry of a member country, statements are asked from every other member country and finally they hold a vote on that suggestion in each parliament. It's only a very limited part of legislation concerning members of the EU that is passed in Brussels.

Also, the amount of money and personnel [[so called bureaucrats) are vastly exaggerated. The EU budget is about 1 % of the total GNP of all EU countries.

During these past 20 years Finland has benefitted a lot from EU and Euro. As a country dependent to a degree on export free trade is important for us. True, we've have economic difficulties lately due to our internal problems but mostly to sanctions against Russia [[which is our neighboring country and a big partner in trade - this has affected us most) - but now there are positive signs and according to the latest information the rise could be anything from 1-2 %. Not much, but it's plus, not minus.

I also wonder where do all those "Fixit" rumors come from. According to the recent poll, only about 25 % of our population wants a Fixit referendum. The rest are satisfied with the EU at the moment.

As I said, I see that the main problem lies in disinformation and failure of all the EU offices in correcting all the untrue information, which feeds populists, who are in it only for personal power - not common well-being.

I'm sorry for all the mistakes and non-fluent language. I'm in a bit of a hurry at this precise moment, but I'm one happy EU citizen.

Best regards
Heikki
Hello Heikki my good friend...I can appreciate your appreciation for the EU, in that you admit that the EU has been good for FInland...That to me is the crux of the problem...The receiving countries of course are happy with what the EU provides...but the paying countries with the highest GDP's and lowest unemployment rates [[Germany, France, the UK, and Italy alone pay 60% of all EU contributions) who contribute the most are going to be the ones who question the viability of remaining with the EU in it's current set-up...I do hesitate to throw Germany into the exit mix since I believe that Chancellor Merkel considers herself to be the "darling" of the EU, although she is becoming more and more unpopular within her borders, but Germany does exert undue influence in all EU decisions leaving smaller countries at a distinct disadvantage...That said...the EU wields tremendous influence into the inner workings of member countries through it's myriad of councils which pass laws and directives which may take effect automatically including significant actions to restrict and limit imports from other member states, The Maastricht Treaty which covers areas like immigration, justice, common security, is nothing but a joke as the immigration crisis of today, and even going back to the Balkan crisis of the 90's where the EU stood by impotently with events in it's own backyard while NATO had to come in to resolve the situation...I doubt RUssia has aims on Finland at this time [[other than perhaps some old WW ll Paybacks), but as other countries become inundated with refugees, you see from my previous post that Germany is now considering what had been the unconsiderable...admission of Turkey to the EU...Actually, most of the statistics I've seen clearly state that the EU is responsible for over 59% of the economic, political, and judicial affairs of it's member countries...So like anything else...this political organization works well for some...not so well for others, except also like other organizations, the ones it's not working so well for happen to be the major funders of it, and their populations and citizenry are beginnnng to stand up and ask why???...

I feel I must throw in this disclaimer at this point as to what may seem to some [[me being an American) as my excessive interest in this entire Brexit topic and it's complications...Prior to a few weeks ago, I knew that The UK was involved in some sort of action regarding it's membership in the EU [[which I new little about) and that was about it...Two and a half months ago...quite fortunately and quite by accident through a CT scan for one somewhat minor but painful problem [[torn rotator cuff), it was found that I had two growths on my right lung...Further testing done right away showed that it was most likely lung cancer and within a few weeks I was at the great cancer center, City of Hope in Duarte, California with a terrific surgeon who performed robotic surgery and tested the growths and one of them was cancerous...He proceeded to perform a surgical procedure to remove both growths and the areas around them...I had a very difficult recovery which ended me back in the hospital with a two very serious infections...so what should have bee a 5 day deal turned into three weeks, plus daily visits from a nurse upon returning home for a month of antibiotic infusions...Follwing all that, I took brief vacation for relaxation and to just clear my head...During ALL that time, and hearing of the so called Brexit issue, I found it interesting enough to spend a lot of time researching the issue, even as I lay poolside in Indian Wells and responded to some Facebook postings on the topic, mostly from anti Brexit people LOL...So I became fairly well versed in many of the issues surrounding this topic, although that does not necessarily make my conclusions or opinions right or wrong and my basic political instincts certainly play a role in this as well, although I always try to look at a topic from all sides,,,All that said...I am happy to report that as of today...two months after my surgical procedure...I am 100% cancer free from my stage 1 diagnosis, including all the lmph nodes and margins that were biopsied from the surgery. I have a bit less lung to breathe with, but it's getting pretty close to normal at this point with fortunately no further treatment needed, so I'm preparing to return to my normal activities, rather than sit around looking at Facebood, Soulful Detroit,,and all other websites as I return to civilian life...but for those who wondered about my apparent fascination and time consuming research with this topic...it just happened to be there at a time I was exposing myself to the current events of the day as my old profession of "newsman" came to the fore...LOL

[theboyfromxtown]

Hello Heikki my good friend...I can appreciate your appreciation for the EU, in that you admit that the EU has been good for FInland...That t me is the crux of the problem...The receiving countries of course are happy with what the EU provides...but the paying countries with the highest GDP's and lowest unemployment rates [[Germany, France, the UK, and Italy alone pay 60% of all EU contributions) who contribute the most are going to be the ones question the viability of remaining with the EU in it's current set-up...I do hesitate to throw Germany into the exit mix since I believe that Chancellor Merkel considers herself to be the "darling" of the EU, although she is becoming more and more unpopular within her borders, but Germany does exert undue influence in all EU decisions leaving smaller countries at a distinct disadvantage...That said...the EU wields tremendous influence into the inner workings of member countries through it's myriad of councils which pass laws and directives which may take effect automatically including significant actions to restrict and limit imports from other member states, The Maastricht Treaty which covers areas like immigration, justice, common security, is nothing but a joke as the immigration crisis of today, and even going back to the Balkan crisis of the 90's where the EY stood by impotently with events in it's own backyard while NATO had to come in to resolve the situation...I doubt RUssia has aims on Finland at this time [[other than perhaps some old WW ll Paybacks), but as other countries become inundated with refugees, you see from my previous post that Germany is now considering what had been the unconsiderable...admission of Turkey to the EU...Actually, most of the statistics I've seen clearly state that the EU is responsible for over 59% of the economic, political, and judicial affairs of it's member countries...So like anything else...this political organization works well for some...not so well for others, except also like other organizations, the ones it's not working so well for happen to be the major funders of it, and their populations and citizenry are beginnnng to stand up and ask why???...

And for that 59%....here are MP's BOTH from Cameron's Tory party, one [[Andrea in blue) is from England who voted overwhelming to LEAVE and the other [[Ruth in red) is from Scotland who voted REMAIN.

It's no wonder folk get confused when even the people from the same party give out differing information.
.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UA0Dj2YdpkA

[StuBass1]

And for that 59%....here are MP's BOTH from Cameron's Tory party, one [[Andrea in blue) is from England who voted overwhelming to LEAVE and the other [[Ruth in red) is from Scotland who voted REMAIN.

It's no wonder folk get confused when even the people from the same party give out differing information.
.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UA0Dj2YdpkA
It obvious the Scottish "shouter" was working under the concept that figures lie and liars figure...She used the previous ONE year where she claims that only four laws affecting the UK were passed at the EU the previous year...So freaking what? What about the HUNDREDS of laws passed in the decades past and the treaties going back over 40 years that affect the everyday lives of the citizens of EU countries...What a ridiculous and totally falsified argument this lady put forth...

[roger]

Hi!

My main concern is the failure in communication, in giving correct information. That enables all those populist parties to spread disinformation and for some reason the press and media are not able - or in many cases - not even willing to correct it.

E.G. in legislation EU only has a limited authority. It can give directives in customs union matters, but as a rule not in such fields as national health care, industry, culture, tourism, education etc. And all those directives are not made up in Brussels. They're initiated in a correspondent ministry of a member country, statements are asked from every other member country and finally they hold a vote on that suggestion in each parliament. It's only a very limited part of legislation concerning members of the EU that is passed in Brussels.

Best regards
Heikki

Hi Heikki ..

I think that our "Remain" campaign would disagree with you on your assertation that "industry" is generally unaffected by EU Directives! One of the main reasons given for "remaining" was that if we were outside of The EU and then had a relationship with our former partners similar to that currently between The EU and Norway, or The EU and Switzerland, then we would have to abide by EU regulations concerning industry but would have no say in their formulation. It seems like we had nothing to worry about after all and that all of those people who were scared into voting "Remain" could have voted "Leave" after all. :)

Also, the way that you describe EU directives evolving seems to be far away from my understanding of how they occur. Perhaps the best place for you to look to prevent "failure in communication giving incorrect information" is The EU's own website.

According to The EU's own website the European Commission issues binding "Directives", "Regulations" and "Decisions" and non-binding "Recommendations" and "Opinions" ....

http://europa.eu/eu-law/decision-making/legal-acts/index_en.htm

If you delve around on The EU's website you will find out that it is The Commission alone which is responsible for drawing up proposals for new legislation ....

http://europa.eu/about-eu/institutions-bodies/european-commission/index_en.htm

These proposals are certainly not drawn up by the corresponding ministries in the Member States, they are initiated because The European Commission itself thinks that there is a need to legislate. The European Commission is appointed every 5 years [[in a manner "simply" explained in the link I've posted above) by a President who is appointed by "The Council Of Ministers" [[in practice during a meeting involving the leaders of the member states), The members of The European Commission are chosen from nominees put forward by the member states, and will typically be retired senior politicians.

The European Parliament then looks at the various regulations and directives sent down to them by The European Commission as is explained here ....

http://europa.eu/about-eu/institutions-bodies/european-parliament/index_en.htm

Essentially [[from a British perspective) The European Parliament has a role similar to ur House of Lords in that they can debate and [[in extreme cases) refuse to pass the legislation but they have no powers to amend it.

"Regulations" go straight into law immediately within the member states. "Directives" are expected to go into law within the member states after having been scrutinised by The Parliaments of the individual member states and some degree of leeway for amendment is allowed. "Decisions" are instructions to a specific Government or other body within The EU to instigate a particular rule.

Roger

[robb_k]

Americas power around the world has absolutely waned...That said, some consider that to be a good thing. Whether it is or not remains to be seen...Many allies are pleased that they've not been asked to participate in any military conflicts, however, several of those same countries have been victimized by terrorist attacks and have yet to see the results of several US led and inspired international actions...Agreement with and massive funding to Iran, non- action in Syria while Russian influence dramatically increases, Russian "reset" which unset as Russia increases it's influence in European countries bordering it as they invade neighboring sovereign countries with nary a peep from us, extremist groups increasing influence and power in Africa, and the fallen stature of our military around the world [[best illustrated by the recent events with the Iranian Navy) due to sgnificant funding cuts and a declining lack of morale...And on the domestic front...a well intentioned health care plan [[ACA) which is falling apart like a house of cards as the largest insurers United Health Care and Blue Cross) in America begin dropping out of the exchanges and stand close to a state of economic collapse without massively increasing revenues [[massive tax increases), increasing gun violence [[not the kind of guns Congress is fixated on) in all of our major cities, falling labor participation rate [[# of people in the economy who are ACTUALLY working), more poverty combined with class and racial disparity and conflict, massive national debt in which every child born will start life owing close to $100,000 before they leave the maternity ward, etc, etc...The next President will have his/her hands full...and unfortunately...in my opinion, neither of the current candidates are even remotely qualified, neither temperamentally, politically, or ethically to deal with the state our country finds itself in...Just my opinion...Of course as always, dissenting opinions are welcome, and even appreciated...
11458
Just like Ancient Egyptian Empire, The Persian Empire, Alexander The Great's Empire, The Roman Empire, The Byzantine Empire, The Ottoman Empire, and The British Empire went on a long decline, and eventually fell, and their core countries became ordinary, or even a poor country, in some cases, USA will have the same fate. It's a law of economics. The rise includes grabbing wealth and an inflow of resources from other [[conquered) nations. The conquering country gets richer and richer. Wages keep rising until it is cheaper to produce in poorer countries, where labour costs will be lower, and desperate people are willing to work very hard for low pay. When manufacturing flows out, higher wages move elsewhere, profits from production move elsewhere and now expensive products must be bought because from other countries because they aren't produced locally anymore. The once wealthy country can't produce its food or tools or what it needs any more. They become dependent upon other countries. It is clear that Great Britain is well along that path and USA has started along it as well.

[StuBass1]

,
11458
Just like Ancient Egyptian Empire, The Persian Empire, Alexander The Great's Empire, The Roman Empire, The Byzantine Empire, The Ottoman Empire, and The British Empire went on a long decline, and eventually fell, and their core countries became ordinary, or even a poor country, in some cases, USA will have the same fate. It's a law of economics. The rise includes grabbing wealth and an inflow of resources from other [[conquered) nations. The conquering country gets richer and richer. Wages keep rising until it is cheaper to produce in poorer countries, where labour costs will be lower, and desperate people are willing to work very hard for low pay. When manufacturing flows out, higher wages move elsewhere, profits from production move elsewhere and now expensive products must be bought because from other countries because they aren't produced locally anymore. The once wealthy country can't produce its food or tools or what it needs any more. They become dependent upon other countries. It is clear that Great Britain is well along that path and USA has started along it as well.

Hi Robb...Agree with much of your initial premise, although I'm not sure I believe in the Donald Trump theory that cheap Chinese labor is going to be our downfall, especially with our clear advantage in technology,but our debt to them might push us in that direction...however, I believe you fail to mention an even more significant cause of the fall of the examples you brought up...that being what we refer to today is overt multi-culturalism. Neither Empires, nor societies can exist when separate cultures, languages, traditions, and especially separate laws and rules for various segments of a given society exist within a single entity...That being the reason that Brexit Brits claim they want their country back, as is the issue here in the US...unfortunately, all we've got is Donald Trump to overhype and trumpet that message, but Trump is a mild version of what I fear will happen in a country like Germany when the traditional population finally decides that the massive wave of new immigrants bringing their cultures, values, religious edicts, and nonassimilation, will pull much of the country to the right and I can only imagine what in a country like Germany...who after all brought us Kristallnacht, mass deportations, and of course...labor and death camps...It's in their national DNA and they've done it before...von Hindenburg was as much loved then...perhaps more, than Merkel is today with her popularity on the wane...One huge economic downturn where the German population can't afford the food, while the government feed the immigrant population, a terrorist assault, and continued assaults on German citizens by immigrants, and one charismatic demagogue at the right place at the right time as the population begins to feel more and more impotent... and I truly fear what will happen in Germany especially, and elsewhere...

[heikki]

Hi!

Thank you for all the comments. This is an interesting thread.
How are you Stu? How's life in your corner [[and outside of the EU) :-). Or do you want to join?
I'll look into your and other answers later today, but first I must state that we are a paying country and have been for over ten years now. I think today it's about 800 million Euros. Financially we used to be among top EU countries still a few years ago [[with AAA ratings, now only AA+), but for me the benefits exceed the sums we pay to the EU budget.
More later...

Best regards
Heikki

[heikki]

Hi!

I didn't know about your health problems, but I'm glad that you're cancer-free now.

Besides the rise of populist parties with disinformation and nobody correcting it, the main problem today really is the immigration and refugees. And it's not only Germany, Italy and Sweden; at one point last fall - as unbelievable as it is - Finland received most refugees in proportion to our population, via Sweden and Russia. Luckily the winter arrived and they noticed that this is not their paradise, and 1/3 of them left voluntarily, which just shows that they weren't genuine refugees. About 1/3 were/will be turned backed and 1/3 will be adapted to our society. Hopefully it'll work out.
But anyway, EU must find better solutions for this problem. One thing that they're looking into right now is financial aid to the certain African countries, where they are fleeing, and that could work, if those countries weren't so corrupted.
Turkey's EU desires were blocked once again recently. They're just not ready for it.
That 59 % is a new figure for me, and I don't quite see what it's composed of.

Roger, very good analysis, thank you!
I actually discussed this issue with my "own MEP" a few months ago and she explained that all those suggestions for directives come from member countries, from state employees mostly. Commission doesn't come up with those ideas in their own "towers". After giving it a directive form, statements are asked from each country., and each country can pass independently a national law based on that directive. That's what she told me as an answer to my jokingly put question about "directive machines" in Central Europe. Regulations are binding, true, but also in these cases each country is heard first - according to her.

As stated recently, ETA-connection [[Norway, Switzerland) is an option for the U.K. too, but also in that case the "four mobilities" - people, goods, services and capital - are obligatory for free trade, so that doesn't stop the immigration flow.

Best regards
Heikki

[StuBass1]

Hi Heikki...
Thanks...I agree that unfettered and uncontrolled immigration was likely the factor that pushed this issue over the edge, but it also revealed part of the glaring problem of centralized government when the powerful make rules that affect the lives of others [[as you have pointed out as relates to Finland and it's immigration status within the EU as they apparently tried to push the "refugees" farther and farther north until they eventually reached the North Pole)...As I previously pointed out...essentially three countries are carrying the majority of the load for the entire EU [[with one recently voting to leave). Part of their decision was based on the 59% figure which comes from the House of Commons library which tracks and maintains records and statistics of such matters as relates to the UK. Smaller countries, like Finland perhaps, so long as they are willing to follow the rules and dictates of the larger, more powerful countries, and perhaps relinquish some of their national character for the benefit of the larger Union may perhaps decide the benefits of membership in the EU are preferable to the problems of running their government with complete independence...I would still maintin that the EU of today largely represents the power base of Chancellor Merkel and she will do whatever she sees necessary to hold the EU together...Other countries are seeing some of the pitfalls of sacrificing their independence to serve the greater good of the EU...Certainly the military and security aspects of the EU are a joke, incapable of controlling their own borders, let alone resolving any military conflict whch could arise...and dual currencies remains a problem for many members...In the final analysis...it will be interesting to see if so many countries with a centuries old history of conflict and war with each other, with different cultures, traditions, and governmental structures will be able to accommodate each other in an organization with vast power and control over it's members to either resolve conflict, or ultimately, contribute to it???...

[heikki]

Hi Stu!

In majority of the matters during the past twenty years we have followed closely Germany, especially in issues with certain Mediterranean countries, who are not so particular about their economy. But we were very close to the U.K. too and this concern some issues, when Germany and France joined forces and tried t rule over smaller member countries, and that's why it's a pity we're losing the U.K. Especially free trade was important for both of us.

Preserving the peace between all the member countries has been an important principle and in that EU has succeeded - I mean within EU countries - especially keeping in mind all the turbulence till the last mid-century. This is the thing I try to keep in mind, when these troubling incidents occur.

Everything may turn out good in EU after all. Now the leaders understand that they must listen more closely to people and avoid the elite impression, and perhaps the good sides of this union are highlighted as well. Perhaps the rest of the union will just grow stronger in the end. Perhaps? Meanwhile populists are on the loose for a couple of years.

Best regards
Still one happy EU citizen,
Heikki

[roger]

I actually discussed this issue with my "own MEP" a few months ago and she explained that all those suggestions for directives come from member countries, from state employees mostly. Commission doesn't come up with those ideas in their own "towers". After giving it a directive form, statements are asked from each country., and each country can pass independently a national law based on that directive. That's what she told me as an answer to my jokingly put question about "directive machines" in Central Europe. Regulations are binding, true, but also in these cases each country is heard first - according to her.


That is pretty much how I imagine "Directives" and "Regulations" originate Heikki, though I think that some might start as pet projects of individual Commissioners or due to pressure from lobbyists in Brussels. The whole point though is that none of these people are ever elected and given a mandate to implement their changes. At no time in the process is there ever a popular debate about whatever it is that The European Commission decides it needs to make decisions about.

In Britain we have been used to having election campaigns every four or five years where we vote for Members of Parliament to represent us at Westminster. The various candidates argue amongst themselves about what they think should be done on issues that are of current popular interest. Then on election day we voters weigh up the various manifestos on offer and vote for whoever we think best reflects our own thoughts and aspirations. Then we expect whoever commands a majority of MPs at Westminster to initiate legislation to carry through their proposals. We certainly don't expect some anonymous government official to decide for us what we should be interested in and how it should be tackled.

During the recent referendum campaign there were a number of senior politicians [[including ones on the "remain" side) who commented that as British Government Ministers they had had legislation imposed upon them from Brussels that they were unaware was even in the pipeline. To me this just sounds wrong.

Roger

[heikki]

Hi Roger!

You have a point in there, and I believe that's how it partially happens.
I do, however, remember that there have been debates quite often in our parliament on some of those regulations and directives. [[After all, all those sessions are either televised or can be watched on the internet).
I can't help but feel that if a Minister is unaware of upcoming legislation, he's only poorly informed, or he himself is a bit lazy:-
But looks like that mostly we agree. I'll try to find out more about these processes later on, but, of course, it'll take time.

Best regards
Heikki [[one happy EU citizen)

[StuBass1]

Hey guys...thanks all for an interesting and enlightening discussion. I learned a lot, and hopefully shed some light on the motivations of some people on both sides of the issue. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out in the future...This is how internet discussions should be conducted...calmly, respectfully, thoughtfully, and with passion, yet also with an open mind. Thanks to my British, European, and plain ol American friends... And Heikki... Hope the publishing is going well...

[heikki]

Hi Stu!

The publishing goes okay. As you know, we're online only now because of the postage. My latest features will be up there still in July.

I also want to thank everybody for this interesting discussion. I usually avoid non-music topics on the internet, but this time I was so worried about constant false accusations towards the EU, which has become so fashionable in recent years - not only among populists, but in media as well. I still believe that the sum - 1 1/2 % of our budget - that goes directly to the EU is cheap compared to, say, establishing those custom barriers again.

And Roger, strong lobbying is omnipresent in the EU. That was a good point. Luckily they'll soon be all registered.

Best regards
Heikki

[theboyfromxtown]

So much for Boris being a buffon.....he's chosen the same candidate as me!!

Boris backs Andrea Leadsom.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3674174/Boris-backs-Andrea-Leadsom-Former-London-mayor-lends-support-Brexit-supporter-guarantees-EU-citizens-right-remain-UK.html

I do hope this lady secures the position. I think you guys overseas will like her. She seems very worldy and very honest.

[144man]

I understand that Andrea Leadsom's performance while at the Treasury was not thought of very highly.

We are in for at least two year's of turmoil, so we need someone who can bring calm and stability to the situation. That person is Theresa May.

[theboyfromxtown]

I understand that Andrea Leadsom's performance while at the Treasury was not thought of very highly.

We are in for at least two year's of turmoil, so we need someone who can bring calm and stability to the situation. That person is Theresa May.

I'm not a Tory paid up member so I'm not voting.

I still hope Andrea gets in. We are going to have to put up with seeing Andrea or Turnaround Theresa on our screens quite a bit in the next 2 years and I don't think I can cope with seeing too much of May's mugshot. lolol

[StuBass1]

I'd dig up the Iron Lady, prop her up before Parliament...and I believe she'd do a fine job...

[144man]

I'm not a Tory paid up member so I'm not voting.


Me neither, nor am I a member of any other political party. I tend to float between Labour, LibDem and Green.

[theboyfromxtown]

Me neither, nor am I a member of any other political party. I tend to float between Labour, LibDem and Green.

I don't think I have ever voted Tory. I know I've never voted Green - nice thought but I dont see that happening in my lifetime.

[roger]

I'd dig up the Iron Lady, prop her up before Parliament...and I believe she'd do a fine job...

Unfortunately that wouldn't work Stu as she was cremated ..... http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/432888/Final-Farewell-Margaret-Thatcher-s-ashes-buried-next-to-her-husband-s-in-low-key-ceremony

However her ashes are only a mile or two down the road from The Parliament Building in the grounds at Chelsea Hospital so perhaps the urn could be retrieved and placed in the middle of the table in The House of Commons [[after a suitably dignified ceremony of course). :)

Roger

[theboyfromxtown]

I'd dig up the Iron Lady, prop her up before Parliament...and I believe she'd do a fine job...

Now that would certainly get a few people going!

[StuBass1]

Even in her present condition...I've no doubt Maggie could defeat Hillary Clinton in a cage match... LOL

[soulster]

http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/08/europe/brexit-britain-hate-crimes/index.html

[soulster]

Hate crime reports surge in Britain in weeks around 'Brexit'
http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/08/europe/brexit-britain-hate-crimes/index.html

[theboyfromxtown]

Angela Dewen asks "Is racism on the rise...."

It's not racism, it's hate crime. There's a big difference.

Bad journalism which is clearly aimed to give a disjointed view to support those who have their own agenda.

[roger]

Hate crime reports surge in Britain in weeks around 'Brexit'
http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/08/europe/brexit-britain-hate-crimes/index.html

There have always been instances of "Hate Crime" in Britain [[that is since the term was invented .. previously it was just considered to be "crime") and there has certainly been a rise in the reporting of it in the last few weeks. Part of this rise may be due to people being encouraged to report anything they might think is suspicious and possibly some incidents are ones that people previously would have considered too trivial to bother anyone with.

Sometimes this rise in "hate" could be mere paranoia. As an example, in the video with the CNN article we are asked to believe that a very well-spoken Finnish lady has been the victim of some misdemeanor simply because some stranger told her loudly that she had a "nice accent". :confused:

Roger

[robb_k]

There have always been instances of "Hate Crime" in Britain [[that is since the term was invented .. previously it was just considered to be "crime") and there has certainly been a rise in the reporting of it in the last few weeks. Part of this rise may be due to people being encouraged to report anything they might think is suspicious and possibly some incidents are ones that people previously would have considered too trivial to bother anyone with.

Sometimes this rise in "hate" could be mere paranoia. As an example, in the video with the CNN article we are asked to believe that a very well-spoken Finnish lady has been the victim of some misdemeanor simply because some stranger told her loudly that she had a "nice accent". :confused:

Roger
11467
I guess those of us with a "foreign" [[not British) accent, had better stay away from Britain. And those of us with brown or Black skin had better stay away from USA. And those of us with Middle Eastern family names or Middle Eastern nose shapes or other facial features [[like mine) had better stay out of Western Europe, with all the fear of being swamped by immigrants.

This is like my early childhood after WWII. We Jews were told by our elders that we "always have to keep our bags packed", as we never know when we'll have to "get out while the gettin' is good", to keep body and Soul together. One would think that Humankind would have learned a lesson from the atrocities of the 20th Century. As I stated above in this thread or in a like one, if I had been born with Black skin, I surely would be dead already.

[roger]

Robb-K .... What I found particularly strange about that Finnish lady was that to me she didn't have a "Foreign" accent at all, to me she was just "well-spoken". Maybe in Britain, as an experiment, we should all start communicating by sign-language and see how that works out!!??

Roger

[robb_k]

Robb-K .... What I found particularly strange about that Finnish lady was that to me she didn't have a "Foreign" accent at all, to me she was just "well-spoken". Maybe in Britain, as an experiment, we should all start communicating by sign-language and see how that works out!!??

Roger
11469
I think that my proper Canadian English would sound out of place in The East End of London, Brixton, Lancashire, Liverpool, Yorkshire, Scotland, Wales, or, indeed, anywhere in The U.K.

[theboyfromxtown]

11469
I think that my proper Canadian English would sound out of place in The East End of London, Brixton, Lancashire, Liverpool, Yorkshire, Scotland, Wales, or, indeed, anywhere in The U.K.

Most of our accents will sound different in another town but is that what you mean by "out of place".

When I was listening to the news, there were people talking in Dallas and they sounded very different to the interviewers.

[robb_k]

Most of our accents will sound different in another town but is that what you mean by "out of place".

When I was listening to the news, there were people talking in Dallas and they sounded very different to the interviewers.
11470
Well, I grew up in Manitoba, next to the forest, in a home with 30 people at the dinner table on weekdays, and 50 on weekends, and most of them spoke Dutch, or Canadian English from the 1880s and 1890s. Despite having colleagues at school, I speak, more or less as Canadians spoke in the late 1800s to early 1900s. I did also hang out on The South Side of Chicago and in South Los Angeles from 1963-72 [[so, maybe I have a little '60s "ghetto Speak" mixed in as well.

In addition, I've dwelt mostly away from English North America since 1972, so the little I've used English [[away from visiting English-speaking family) has been using it as a "lingua Franca" speaking with Africans, Asians, Finns, and some Brits. So, I would sound "weird" to just about anyone, in terms of vocabulary, word order, currently unused grammar forms, etc. and, certainly accent.

[Spiritinthesky]

One good thing that has come out of all this is a lot of young people are now more aware of British politics and all the crap that goes with it. So that has to be a good thing. The UK needs a young voice.

[StuBass1]

One good thing that has come out of all this is a lot of young people are now more aware of British politics and all the crap that goes with it. So that has to be a good thing. The UK needs a young voice.
Wasn't it Winston Churchill who said..."Show me a young conservative, and I'll show you a person with no heart...Show me an old liberal, and I'll show you a person with no brain"... lol

[roger]

Well ... it looks like Theresa May is going to be our new Prime Minister [["ugly mug" and all) as Andrea Leadsome has just dropped out of the race. She still needs ratifying by the Conservative Party as their new leader but it looks like a formality now.

I wonder what she will become known as? "Iron Lady" has already gone. Any ideas anyone? :)

Roger

[theboyfromxtown]

She's been called

Turnaround Theresa
Teflon Theresa

and that's just the nice ones!

lol

[grapevine]

...seems to me as a person who has never voted for ...or understood ...Tories ...that they're all a bunch of weak-kneed politicians ...when the going gets tough ...they either resign or withdraw ...Cameron ...Johnson ...Gove ...Leadsom ...et al ...their followers and supporters must feel terribly let down ...can't stand any of them ...!! :)

[theboyfromxtown]

...seems to me as a person who has never voted for ...or understood ...Tories ...that they're all a bunch of weak-kneed politicians ...when the going gets tough ...they either resign or withdraw ...Cameron ...Johnson ...Gove ...Leadsom ...et al ...their followers and supporters must feel terribly let down ...can't stand any of them ...!! :)

Thank goodness I can shut my front door, turn off the radio and TV and put on my music and stick two fingers up to the lot of them! LOL

[144man]

I've never voted Tory in a General Election, but I thought Theresa May's Downing Street speech was pretty good. I just hope it was more truthful than Maggie Thatcher's when she first became PM.

[westgrandboulevard]

I've voted both Conservative and Labour in the last two decades.

I did that for reasons which I thought would be better for the country, rather than following a lifetime custom, or for strictly personal preferences.

To me, Labour aren't offering a strong alternative at the present time. I'm not impressed by Jeremy Corbyn.

I agree with 144man, that Theresa May is in a strong position and, in these very early stages, is looking quietly impressive.

I tried to be open-minded, but voted to 'Remain', as I hadn't gained a strong impression of a clear plan, should we leave the EU.

However, the majority of the votes were to leave, and Theresa May has declared she will be following the wishes of the voters.

I'm hoping that during Mrs May's work in her term as Prime Minister, some positive advantages of the UK no longer being a member of the EU will unfold.

At the moment, I'm very much inclined to vote for her at the next General Election.

[theboyfromxtown]

I was firmly in Andrea's camp and I am delighted she has a position. At least she will be able to sit around the table and frown at those who don't follow the will of the people. LOL

I love the uproar over Boris' appointment. Those critics will soon find out that they will have under-estimated his abilities. He's much cleverer than he is given credit for. Nevertheless, that still doesn't stop him from acting a fool.

I'm very hopeful that Theresa can pull us through all this.....and if she does well in 2 years, she might even get me to vote Tory at the next election.....

[westgrandboulevard]

I read recently that Theresa May has long had a barely disguised dislike of Boris Johnson.

If that is indeed true, I'm not entirely sure if she has given him the position of Foreign Secretary as an opportunity for him to show how good he is...or how bad.

Theresa May has an air of quiet competence, but also a certain steeliness about her.

I have a feeling Boris Johnson may have just one chance, and not long to prove it.

Time will tell......

[roger]

I love the uproar over Boris' appointment. Those critics will soon find out that they will have under-estimated his abilities. He's much cleverer than he is given credit for. Nevertheless, that still doesn't stop him from acting a fool.



Did you ever see Boris Johnson's "Who Do You Think You Are"? it has to be the most fascinating ones I've ever seen and is well worth spending an hour watching. I've posted a link to the episode below.

It is a while since I saw it but from memory he was born in New York, one of his Grandfathers was a leading Turkish politician who fell foul of Kemal Ataturk after WW1 and one of his Grandmothers was descended from a German Royal family and was in possession of some of their "Crown Jewels" which she gave away to some family members so they could emigrate to Canada!!

Roger


http://www.veoh.com/watch/v19556925Mj3exT5Y

[theboyfromxtown]

Boris lives a stone's thrown away from me. He lives in the best house in the street..right next to the river.

He must have been born with a couple of silver spoons in his mouth

[theboyfromxtown]

Theresa is going to meet Nicola to talk about Brexit.

I wish a could be a fly on the wall. I'd pay good money for a seat at the front.

[144man]

As Theresa says she will not govern for the privileged few, it will be interesting to see if Andrea tries to reintroduce foxhunting.

[144man]

First major trade deal since Brexit is that the US has agreed to allow imports of UK beef and lamb for the first time in nineteen years.

[soulster]

First major trade deal since Brexit is that the US has agreed to allow imports of UK beef and lamb for the first time in nineteen years.

Why were they banned?

[theboyfromxtown]

As Theresa says she will not govern for the privileged few, it will be interesting to see if Andrea tries to reintroduce foxhunting.

I hope not

[roger]

I hope not

Oh I don't know ... seeing as most of the foxes seem to have migrated into the cities [[they are quite commonplace around where I live) I quite fancy the idea of seeing hunts livening up the vicinity .. Sunday Afternoons could see packs of hounds in pursuit of some cunning Reynard, it would certainly make visits to Manor Park Cemetery more interesting and those lucky enough to be driving over the flyover on The North Circular could admire the sight of the hunt dodging the express trains on the route out to East Anglia. :)

Roger

[roger]

Why were they banned?

It was probably as a result of the outbreak of BSE [[Bovine Spongine Encephalitis .. a disease also known as "Mad Cow Disease"). For a few years none of our "friends" in Continental Europe allowed importation of British beef either .. though it was always on sale here.

There is a bit about it here ... http://www.centerforfoodsafety.org/issues/1040/mad-cow-disease/timeline-mad-cow-disease-outbreaks#

Roger

[theboyfromxtown]

Oh I don't know ... seeing as most of the foxes seem to have migrated into the cities [[they are quite commonplace around where I live) I quite fancy the idea of seeing hunts livening up the vicinity .. Sunday Afternoons could see packs of hounds in pursuit of some cunning Reynard, it would certainly make visits to Manor Park Cemetery more interesting and those lucky enough to be driving over the flyover on The North Circular could admire the sight of the hunt dodging the express trains on the route out to East Anglia. :)

Roger

My ancestors are all buried over that way..the City Of London cemetery is one of two over there.

We have foxes on our estate...they come out at night....a bit like my dentures! LOL

[soulster]

It was probably as a result of the outbreak of BSE [[Bovine Spongine Encephalitis .. a disease also known as "Mad Cow Disease"). For a few years none of our "friends" in Continental Europe allowed importation of British beef either .. though it was always on sale here.

There is a bit about it here ... http://www.centerforfoodsafety.org/issues/1040/mad-cow-disease/timeline-mad-cow-disease-outbreaks#

Roger Thanks for reminding me.

[honest man]

Oh I don't know ... seeing as most of the foxes seem to have migrated into the cities [[they are quite commonplace around where I live) I quite fancy the idea of seeing hunts livening up the vicinity .. Sunday Afternoons could see packs of hounds in pursuit of some cunning Reynard, it would certainly make visits to Manor Park Cemetery more interesting and those lucky enough to be driving over the flyover on The North Circular could admire the sight of the hunt dodging the express trains on the route out to East Anglia. :)

Roger
Hopefully the train will not miss them,an eye for eye and all that jazz.

[144man]

Now that we have a government which is committed to Brexit, what is the point of the continued existence of UKIP?

[theboyfromxtown]

Now that we have a government which is committed to Brexit, what is the point of the continued existence of UKIP?

I dare say that will be made clear sooner rather than later.

[144man]

UKIP seems to be in meltdown what with leader Diane James resigning after only 18 days in charge and two UKIP Members of the European Parliament having a punch up with each other.

I can't say I'm surprised. On the whole most people I know who voted Remain seem to be generally nicer than those who voted Leave.

[TomatoTom123]

UKIP seems to be in meltdown what with leader Diane James resigning after only 18 days in charge and two UKIP Members of the European Parliament having a punch up with each other.

Apparently Diane James resigned because she was abused at a train station
I'm sorry, who even knows who she is? LOL!

Nigel Farage has somehow regained leadership of the party for the third time - good ol' Nige

[144man]

Like it or not [[which I don't), we're leaving the EU, so I don't see the need for UKIP now. It looks like they could become a new version of the National Front.

[TomatoTom123]

Like it or not [[which I don't), we're leaving the EU, so I don't see the need for UKIP now. It looks like they could become a new version of the National Front.

Hmm, we do have the BNP, who I'm sure wouldn't appreciate UKIP encroaching on their far-right, nationalistic, racist politics, LOL!

[144man]

What annoys me is when people say that Britain voted to leave the EU.

No, it did not. Only England and Wales voted to leave, whereas Scotland and Northern Ireland most definitely voted to remain. The fact that prior to the referendum, nobody considered the implications of such a result speaks volumes about the inadequacy of our current brand of politicians.

[TomatoTom123]

What annoys me is when people say that Britain voted to leave the EU.

No, it did not. Only England and Wales voted to leave, whereas Scotland and Northern Ireland most definitely voted to remain. The fact that prior to the referendum, nobody considered the implications of such a result speaks volumes about the inadequacy of our current brand of politicians.

Technically we are a united nation [[well, we're supposed to be) and we should probably leave the EU as one

And you're right about the politicians - I mean, what was Boris thinking?! Lol

[144man]

It is very unusual for major constitutional changes to the status quo to be made on a simple majority e.g. ordination of women in church required all constituent bodies to agree, and changes to fixed-term parliaments requires a two-thirds majority.

[soulster]

Like it or not [[which I don't), we're leaving the EU, so I don't see the need for UKIP now. It looks like they could become a new version of the National Front. Someone here took me to task on this. Give it time. Some of it may play out as we are speculating.

[TomatoTom123]

It is very unusual for major constitutional changes to the status quo to be made on a simple majority e.g. ordination of women in church required all constituent bodies to agree, and changes to fixed-term parliaments requires a two-thirds majority.

Yes, it was a very very slight majority, but a majority nevertheless, so I guess that means we have to leave

Although...technically the referendum was advisory and not binding, so.......

[144man]

Not only that. I'm English but I feel the Scots have been duped. Their referendum was based on the assumption that they would remain part of the EU. To drag them out now against their will smacks of colonialism.

[theboyfromxtown]

What annoys me is when people say that Britain voted to leave the EU.

No, it did not. Only England and Wales voted to leave, whereas Scotland and Northern Ireland most definitely voted to remain. The fact that prior to the referendum, nobody considered the implications of such a result speaks volumes about the inadequacy of our current brand of politicians.

Someone pointed this out to be the other day. I have lost that reference but here is another one

http://resources.woodlands-junior.kent.sch.uk/customs/questions/britain/britain.htm

Britain = England and Wales
Great Britain = England Wales and Scotland

So I guess that it would be true to say Britain did in fact vote to leave the UK!

It's been so long that I did geography that I'd forgotten these differences.

[TomatoTom123]

Not only that. I'm English but I feel the Scots have been duped. Their referendum was based on the assumption that they would remain part of the EU. To drag them out now against their will smacks of colonialism.

Hmm, I don't know
Scotland voted to remain in the UK with a slight majority, but to remain nonetheless
I think if we have to leave the EU we should just get it done, do it well, and do it together! Lol

[marv2]

What is Marmite?

[TomatoTom123]

What is Marmite?

What is marmite?! Lol

"a dark savoury spread made from yeast extract and vegetable extract"

[marv2]

Sounds interesting and pretty serious to the British people:

http://www.msn.com/en-us/foodanddrink/restaurantsandnews/britain-panics-over-brexit-sparked-marmite-shortage/ar-AAiUwAZ?OCID=ansmsnnews11

[soulster]

What is marmite?! Lol

"a dark savoury spread made from yeast extract and vegetable extract"

It's fermented yeast extract. The taste is very...very...strong! It is like molasses, and very...very...strong!

[TomatoTom123]

Sounds interesting and pretty serious to the British people

Hehe, of all the things we were warned about marmite shortage was not one!!!

[144man]

Hehe, of all the things we were warned about marmite shortage was not one!!!

I've always been told marmite is something you either love or hate, so how comes I can take it or leave it?

[144man]

With every passing day, I am getting more and more worried that if the UK goes for a hard Brexit, it will be able to survive as a viable economic entity.

[TomatoTom123]

If we go for so-called "hard brexit" I'm sure we'll hear something along the lines of "hard brexit means hard brexit" and that will reassure everyone! Lol

[144man]

Someone will form UKEP [[The United Kingdom European Party), and we'll rejoin the EU in a couple of generations LOL.

[TomatoTom123]

Someone will form UKEP [[The United Kingdom European Party), and we'll rejoin the EU in a couple of generations LOL.

Hehehehe, probably, LOL!!!

[144man]

Someone pointed this out to be the other day. I have lost that reference but here is another one

http://resources.woodlands-junior.kent.sch.uk/customs/questions/britain/britain.htm

Britain = England and Wales
Great Britain = England Wales and Scotland

So I guess that it would be true to say Britain did in fact vote to leave the UK!

It's been so long that I did geography that I'd forgotten these differences.

If you include Northern Ireland, then it was a two-all draw.:)

[144man]

HATE CRIMES SOAR AFTER BREXIT VOTE

"Hate crimes soared by 41% in the immediate aftermath of June's EU referendum, with nearly 5,500 racially or religiously aggravated offences reported to police, new Home Office figures revealed today. The statistics show that the number of such offences - including assaults, verbal abuse and xenophobic graffiti - stayed above pre-vote levels in August, with about 4,500 further incidents that month, despite falling from its July peak."

[Evening Standard, London, October 13]

I have a bad feeling that this isn't going to end well...

[TomatoTom123]

HATE CRIMES SOAR AFTER BREXIT VOTE

"Hate crimes soared by 41% in the immediate aftermath of June's EU referendum, with nearly 5,500 racially or religiously aggravated offences reported to police, new Home Office figures revealed today. The statistics show that the number of such offences - including assaults, verbal abuse and xenophobic graffiti - stayed above pre-vote levels in August, with about 4,500 further incidents that month, despite falling from its July peak."

[Evening Standard, London, October 13]

I have a bad feeling that this isn't going to end well...

I agree, it doesn't look good

But I don't really get that: we left the EU [[or rather, voted to) so let's go and be violent and hateful, I mean, what's up with that??! Like racism and discrimination is allowed when we leave the EU!!?

[144man]

Because a lot of the Leave campaign was directed against immigration, this has led the closet racists to feel it is now legitimate for them to openly express their hatred.

[TomatoTom123]

Because a lot of the Leave campaign was directed against immigration, this has led the closet racists to feel it is now legitimate for them to openly express their hatred.

Yea, you're right there
Sad but true!

[theboyfromxtown]

I have to say that I have never been exposed to such bad feeling as a result of any other UK vote. It's truly awful. I read last week that one elderly Remainer in Manchester got so angry when a colleague admitted to being a Leaver that he attacked him and took his life.

Google Graham Dunne and Duncan Keating.

Simply terrible.

[soulster]

Because a lot of the Leave campaign was directed against immigration, this has led the closet racists to feel it is now legitimate for them to openly express their hatred.

Exact, same thing is happening here with Trump. The minute Trump started in on birth certificates and building a wall along the Mexican border, he locked in the racists.

[144man]

I have to say that I have never been exposed to such bad feeling as a result of any other UK vote. It's truly awful. I read last week that one elderly Remainer in Manchester got so angry when a colleague admitted to being a Leaver that he attacked him and took his life.

Google Graham Dunne and Duncan Keating.

Simply terrible.

Looking at the views of the people who posted on the relevant google links to that story, most of the hatred there is directed against the Remainers. Where I live in London, 78% voted Remain, and the bad feeling is in the opposite direction.

It is not surprising that such bad feeling has been elicited. By the very Either/ Or nature of referendums, they will divide people and polarise opinion. The same thing happened after the Scottish independence referendum , which created many family rifts.

[TomatoTom123]

Looking at the views of the people who posted on the relevant google links to that story, most of the hatred there is directed against the Remainers. Where I live in London, 78% voted Remain, and the bad feeling is in the opposite direction.

It is not surprising that such bad feeling has been elicited. By the very Either/ Or nature of referendums, they will divide people and polarise opinion. The same thing happened after the Scottish independence referendum , which created many family rifts.

There should have been a third option along the lines of "I'm a bit miffed with the EU but I don't really want to leave it"

[144man]

If I'm really honest with myself, there were a few moments when I was beginning to waver. The racist killing of MP Jo Cox during the campaign galvanized me into voting Remain, reinforced by not wanting to be on the same side as creeps like Nigel Farage and John Redwood.

[theboyfromxtown]

Why do you call it racist when both Jo Cox and her killer Thomas Mair were from the same race?

[TomatoTom123]

If I'm really honest with myself, there were a few moments when I was beginning to waver. The racist killing of MP Jo Cox during the campaign galvanized me into voting Remain, reinforced by not wanting to be on the same side as creeps like Nigel Farage and John Redwood.

Yea, it is very easy to go for whole "we want our country back" thing, it's a very simple and appealing idea. Jo Cox's death was so sad though. Was it a race-motivated killing?

[144man]

Why do you call it racist when both Jo Cox and her killer Thomas Mair were from the same race?

Because Thomas Mair was an extreme right-wing sympathiser, and was presumably motivated by Jo Cox's stance on racial equality. A Not Guilty plea has been entered on his behalf, so no doubt further details will come to light during the course of the trial.

[TomatoTom123]

Because Thomas Mair was an extreme right-wing sympathiser, and was presumably motivated by Jo Cox's stance on racial equality. A Not Guilty plea has been entered on his behalf, so no doubt further details will come to light during the course of the trial.

Thank you for explaining, 144man
I heard somewhere that people would have been quick to call it a "terrorist" attack if the killer had been Muslim

[calvin]

I begin with a disclaimer - I voted "remain". [[Not going to explain my reasons here, it goes beyond the scope of this post.)

Having said that, it's a logical fallacy - guilt by association - to call the Brexit vote "racist." Yes, racists presumably voted overwhelmingly for Brexit, but this was not nearly decisive. Exit polling suggested that the white vote was about 53% to 47% in favour of Brexit, compared to a final result of 51.9% to 48.1%. Support for Brexit was weaker among ethnic minorities than whites but still substantial, and it could not have passed without this support. The results suggested that age and class/education were better predictors of how one voted [[older and less-educated voters tending to favour Brexit more).

The vote was anti-immigrant, but the immigrants the Brexiters want to keep out are the poor from Eastern Europe - who are white Christians.

Standard economic theory of trade says that free trade increases overall output through increased efficiency, but the benefits are not distributed evenly. The wealthy and highly skilled of both countries benefit, as do the poor of the less-developed country, while the unskilled/uneducated of the wealthier country are the losers. Beyond the effect free trade has on manufactured goods, mass immigration of poor people also puts downward pressure on wages in services. Politicians [[not economists) have been telling people for years that everyone is a winner in globalisation, but the people on the bottom in the wealthier countries see their own reality.

I have a friend whose father was a carpenter. Within a few years after the eastern European countries entered the EU, his income plummeted and he left his work to take another job, at lower pay than he had made previously. If you're a homeowner, it's great that you can hire Polish workers for a fraction of the price you used to pay. And nothing against these Polish workers, they're just trying to make a better living as all of us are. But why should we be surprised if the globalisation losers vote for Brexit?

Resources are limited and there is a value judgement to be made - how do you prioritize the poor of your own country against the poor of other countries?

Canada has a very strict immigration policy. Their goal is to take people who they expect will contribute more than they take out of the system. Also, they deport illegal immigrants [[which is why they don't need a wall). This protects their own poor, unskilled, and uneducated. Does that make Canadians racists? I don't think so.

There is another problem with open borders which is being revealed in the EU - "brain drain". More than 1 million Greeks [[out of 10 million) have already left Greece for other EU countries just in the past few years, primarily going to Germany, the UK, and Denmark, and more are leaving every day. These tend to be the people with skills that Greece needs, also the people who would pay more in taxes there. Recently it was reported that nearly all newly-trained medical doctors and nurses in Greece and Portugal leave their country upon completion of their training [[the UK benefits from this). What they leave behind are the pensioners and unskilled, and lower tax revenues. Greece is already in a death spiral, perhaps Portugal also.

This is not a problem with illegal immigrants in the US - since it's illegal, it's the unskilled and uneducated who make the journey. But if you open the border for anyone to immigrate legally, you can expect many, if not most, medical doctors [[as just one example) to leave Mexico for the US. For those who remain in Mexico, things could get much worse.

Though I voted remain, I find it very unfair to dismiss those who lose out through globalisation as "racists." This also just reinforces their belief [[which I tend to agree with) that the "elites" simply do not care about them.

[144man]

I see that Tony Blair is now calling for a new referendum.

[TomatoTom123]

The recent EU-Canada trade deal has taken something like seven years, I think. I guess we will have to do our own separate one now.

[144man]

The UK will be leaving the protection of being an EU member just when Trump is cooling towards NATO. Suddenly the world seems a much scarier place.

[TomatoTom123]

Apparently Nigel Farage wants to be America's new ambassador to the EU!! Lol

[theboyfromxtown]

Apparently Nigel Farage wants to be America's new ambassador to the EU!! Lol

I suspect France and Italy are going to call on his services shortly! He will be spoilt for choice

[ms_m]

The UK will be leaving the protection of being an EU member just when Trump is cooling towards NATO. Suddenly the world seems a much scarier place.

Hate to break it to you 144man but based on his NATO rhetoric, "cooling" is an understatement.

He seems to be backing dat booty up [[back peddling) all of a sudden but his base is NOT trying to see and or hear that.

Pu#$y grabber elect is a disaster waiting to happen not just here, but all over the world. Assad is jumping with glee as I'm sure, so is ISIS.

[TomatoTom123]

Nigel Farage becomes the first British politician to meet Donald Trump

12011
Are they supposed to look completely crazy or was that just an oversight?

[144man]

Hate to break it to you 144man but based on his NATO rhetoric, "cooling" is an understatement.

He seems to be backing dat booty up [[back peddling) all of a sudden but his base is NOT trying to see and or hear that.

Pu#$y grabber elect is a disaster waiting to happen not just here, but all over the world. Assad is jumping with glee as I'm sure, so is ISIS.

But of course Trump knows how to beat ISIS overnight [Deep irony].

[144man]

I suspect France and Italy are going to call on his services shortly! He will be spoilt for choice

The possibility of Marine Le Pen of the National Front becoming President of France next year is too horrible to contemplate.

[144man]

Why do you call it racist when both Jo Cox and her killer Thomas Mair were from the same race?

Further to my post #203, from today's Metro:

"Labour MP Jo Cox was shot and stabbed to death by a constituent who repeatedly shouted "Britain First", a trial heard yesterday... Aide Fazila Aswat tried to defend her boss and heard Mair, 53, yell "Britain First, this is for Britain, Britain will always come first", said prosecutor Richard Whittam QC. He added that it was a premeditated murder for a political and/or ideological cause...Mrs Cox's caseworker Sandra Major said she heard him say "We're British independence" during the alleged attack."

[TomatoTom123]

Now Nigel Farage wants to be the UK's ambassador to the US! According to Donald Trump "many people" would also like him to be. Apparently "he would do a great job..." Lol

[144man]

The USA may be a powerful country, but it doesn't pick our ambassadors.

[TomatoTom123]

The USA may be a powerful country, but it doesn't pick our ambassadors.

You would think so wouldn't you?! I can't believe the guy is still around, with him having lost the leadership of his party, then suddenly regaining it, "winning" the EU referendum, resigning as leader, becoming leader again, planning to step down as leader - and then visiting the US and being offered a job that doesn't even exist! Lol

[144man]

And FIFA can go and take a running jump as well. How dare they tell us we can't wear poppies on Armistice day in memory of those who lost their lives!

[TomatoTom123]

Yes, they claim that teams can't send out any "political or religious messages"

Does seem very unnecessary to ban people from remembering soldiers who lost their lives fighting for the country

[144man]

I don't see how it's political because members of all political parties lay wreathes at the Cenotaph, and I don't see how it's religious because atheists wear poppies in remembrance. It is a mark of respect.

And FIFA are now taken action against Wales because some of their fans were wearing poppies. That surely must be ultra vires FIFA's charter and an infringement of the fans' civil liberties.

[roger]

There should have been a third option along the lines of "I'm a bit miffed with the EU but I don't really want to leave it"

I think that was David Cameron's position!!

[144man]

Good seeing you on Friday, Roger.

No one has mentioned here about whether parliamentary approval is needed before triggering Article 50. Based on my elementary knowledge of the British Constitution [[which I studied at school for two years in the 1960s before it somehow morphed into O Level Religious Knowledge), I don't see how the Supreme Court will be able to do anything but rule against the Government.

[roger]

Good seeing you on Friday, Roger.

No one has mentioned here about whether parliamentary approval is needed before triggering Article 50. Based on my elementary knowledge of the British Constitution [[which I studied at school for two years in the 1960s before it somehow morphed into O Level Religious Knowledge), I don't see how the Supreme Court will be able to do anything but rule against the Government.

Good to see you too 144man, it was quite a little get-together of SDFers, needless to say I've been busy reading through the book I bought there over the past few days :)

It will be interesting to see what the Supreme Court rules, especially as it was my understanding that it was David Cameron's intention to invoke Article 50 within a few days back in June if the result was "Leave".

Of course there was a landmark vote in Parliament on Wednesday [[after your post) where MPs, in principal, signified their approval of the Government invoking Article 50, so it seems unlikely that it won't go ahead irrespective of any verdict.

Not sure how studying the British Constitution night have morphed into studying Religious Knowledge .. it sounds like a connection that King Henry VIII etc. might have made back in the Tudor era!! :)

Roger

[144man]

I was a big surprise to all of us who were studying British Constitution as no one had pre-warned us that we would end up doing RK instead.

It's best that the Supreme Court make a ruling before Article 50 is invoked whether parliamentary approval is required otherwise the Government could have been found to have invoked it illegally.

[TomatoTom123]

I had to do religious studies and I hated it! I wouldn't mind learning about other religions and being taught to be tolerant but having to take exams in the damn thing, c'mon!? Lol

I really don't know much about what's going on with the courts and everything but what's clear to me is that it's one big mess! Hehe

It seems as though leaving the EU has triggered a separate debate on the powers of government vs the powers of the executive vs the "will of the people" - oh my, what is going on...?

[144man]

At its extreme, the "will of the people" can spill over into mob rule, in which case minorities need their rights safeguarded. Remember Hitler often operated by getting his actions approved by plebiscite.

The situation is complicated by the UK's not having a written constitution, so the judges will come to their decision using "precedence".

The way I see it, the following facts are material:

1) In the UK's system of representative democracy, referendums are not a normal way of governing.
2) When the UK entered the Common Market, the referendum result was enabled by Parliament, so the same should apply on leaving.
3) In the recent unsuccessful referendum on voting reform, the terms were specifically included that parliamentary approval would not be required. The fact that no such rider was enshrined in the Brexit referendum implies that parliamentary approval is necessary.
4)Triggering Article 50 without parliamentary approval is tantamount to governing by decree.
5)The fact that Scotland, Northern Ireland and Gibraltar all voted to remain in the EU raises serious constitutional issues.

[144man]

I was pleased to see that the Supreme Court agreed with my view that to be legal Article 50 would have to be triggered by an Act of Parliament. My only surprise was that the decision was not unanimous.

[TomatoTom123]

I was pleased to see that the Supreme Court agreed with my view that to be legal Article 50 would have to be triggered by an Act of Parliament. My only surprise was that the decision was not unanimous.
Yes... 8 judges to 3 I believe

Remember The Daily Mail running this headline...
12485

[144man]

Stupid of the Daily Mail. The judges were not making law, but stating what the existing law is. Parliament, not the government, is the supreme authority, and if the Supreme Court does not have the power to ensure that this remains the case, who else does?

[TomatoTom123]

Stupid of the Daily Mail. The judges were not making law, but stating what the existing law is. Parliament, not the government, is the supreme authority, and if the Supreme Court does not have the power to ensure that this remains the case, who else does?

Hear hear!! If I were in Parliament I would have clapped and jeered and shouted out at you in agreement. Lol

[144man]

Brexit has had its first direct effect on my life.

I participate as a volunteer in a medical control group the objective of which is genetic mapping of certain diseases in minorities. Despite early successes, EU funding of this project will cease in the middle of 2018, and unless alternative funding can be obtained, which appears to be unlikely, future research will then stop.

Thank you for that, Brexiteers:mad:

[TomatoTom123]

Wow. Sorry to hear that 144man.

But now we're leaving we can put all those billions/trillions/gazillions of pounds back into the NHS instead of sending it to the Brussel sprouts. At least that's what I read. Or did my bus lie to me?

You know, I remember reading that the areas of the UK receiving the most funding from the EU were the ones that actually voted to leave [[e.g. Wales)...

[144man]

So PM Theresa May says that it is fundamentally unfair to ask the Scottish people to make a crucial decision on independence without the necessary information.

Just what does she think the whole of the UK electorate ended up having to do when voting in the referendum to leave the EU?

[144man]

So it's to be a June 8 snap General Election.

Last chance to save the country from the complete economic disaster that will be caused by an ever-increasing Balance of Payments deficit.

[TomatoTom123]

Yes, another election... this will be interesting... what happens if Labour wins? And what happens if the Lib Dems win? They want to stop Brexit! It's unlikely but possible...

[TomatoTom123]

So PM Theresa May says that it is fundamentally unfair to ask the Scottish people to make a crucial decision on independence without the necessary information.

Just what does she think the whole of the UK electorate ended up having to do when voting in the referendum to leave the EU?

Also, it is hypocritical to deny the Scottish people the right to vote to leave the union and govern themselves when the UK has done just that with the EU.

However, the LAST thing we need right now is another referendum. That's what got us all into this mess in the first place... Lol

[144man]

How comes a few weeks ago Theresa May said that the Scots could not have an independence referendum because it would be a distraction from Brexit, yet now she has called a General Election. Just how distracting does she think a General Election is going to be?

[TomatoTom123]

How comes a few weeks ago Theresa May said that the Scots could not have an independence referendum because it would be a distraction from Brexit, yet now she has called a General Election. Just how distracting does she think a General Election is going to be?

LOLOL

Probably not distracting at all, seeing as she thinks she will win hands down...

[144man]

If you look at the difference in the age groups between those who voted "Leave" compared to "Remain", there's probably a majority to remain now as more Brexiteers will have died off, LOL.

[TomatoTom123]

If you look at the difference in the age groups between those who voted "Leave" compared to "Remain", there's probably a majority to remain now as more Brexiteers will have died off, LOL.

Oh 144man!!! ...LOL

[144man]

If you look at the difference in the age groups between those who voted "Leave" compared to "Remain", there's probably a majority to remain now as more Brexiteers will have died off, LOL.

I was being facetious when I wrote the above here.

However in a serious article entitled "Business Must Get Off The Fence And Stop Brexit" in yesterday's Evening Standard, City Correspondent Anthony Hilton wrote: "And as for thwarting the will of the people as expressed in the referendum, consider this - by 2019 some two million people from the 2016 electorate will have died and been replaced by a similar number of 18 to 20-year olds. Given no change in the voting preferences between the old and the young, that would give a majority for Remain."

[roger]

I was being facetious when I wrote the above here.

However in a serious article entitled "Business Must Get Off The Fence And Stop Brexit" in yesterday's Evening Standard, City Correspondent Anthony Hilton wrote: "And as for thwarting the will of the people as expressed in the referendum, consider this - by 2019 some two million people from the 2016 electorate will have died and been replaced by a similar number of 18 to 20-year olds. Given no change in the voting preferences between the old and the young, that would give a majority for Remain."

I just don't buy this often quoted argument 144Man .. in the 1975 referendum there was exactly the same pattern, in that the youngest were [[generally) in favour of being in The Common Market and the oldest were [[generally) not in favour ... with the tipping point where "leave" and "remain" were 50-50 being at around age 65. In last year's referendum the tipping point was at around age 40 .. if that trend were to continue by 2019 the tipping point would be down in the upper 30s and there might be a larger majority for "leave" than in 2016.

Certainly, many of those who were in the 18-24 age group in 1975 [[and who would therefore be in their early '60s in 2016) must have changed their minds between the two referendums.

On a more serious note, what is curious about the referendum of 1975, compared with that of 2016 is the way in which the two main parties switched positions on the issue .. in 1975 Labour was split right down the middle [[the big, influential Trade Unions were generally for "out) and The Conservatives were overwhelmingly in favour of being "in" [[with a couple of dozen maverick MPs campaigning for "out") .. in 2016 it was The Conservatives who were split down the middle and Labour who were overwhelmingly in favour of being "in" [[with a handful of maverick MPs campaigning for "out") and most trade unions were for "remain".

I wonder how future historians will view this.

Roger

[144man]

People are also supposed to get more and more right-wing as they get older. I seem to be travelling in the opposite direction.

[144man]

Brexiteers have been campaigning for us to leave Europe ever since we first joined the Common Market. It is therefore disingenuous for them to argue that Remoaners have no right to campaign to stay in the EU. Democracy did not suddenly end on the day after the Referendum. If the Country has changed its mind over Brexit, as it has every right to do [[after all, that is why we have general elections every five years), then this fact must be acknowledged.

If or when we leave the EU, no doubt a party called something like REP [Rejoin Europe Party]will be formed, its ranks swollen by the economic disaster that is to come. I shall be one of the first to join.

[TomatoTom123]

Good point 144man. Of course you can’t say that out loud or you will be accused of “ignoring democracy”...!

By the way, I think you should go ahead and start up that party! You sound like you know what you’re doing and what you stand for... and that’s a great party name too :p

[TomatoTom123]

Oh yea, a quick recap on where we are with this Brexit thing, erm... IT’S A MESS

Theresa May seems to be losing her authority faster than the EU is losing its patience, foreign secretary and all-round laughing stock Boris Johnson keeps making gaffs and undermining Theresa on the sly, and Brexit secretary David Davis seems to be taking the negotiations with the EU less seriously than his own stupid name. LOL

But at least Theresa’s address to the Tory party conference went down well

NOT

Couple of things you might have noticed went wrong with the speech:

1) a man got up from his seat and handed Theresa a fake P45 document [[notification of being sacked!) claiming it was from foreign secretary BoJo

2) Theresa was interrupted on many occasions by, um, her own cough

3) the slogan behind her on the wall, “building a country that works for everyone”, slowly fell apart, letter by letter, until it said “bui ding a c ntry th orks or ryon”

4) part of the speech was actually taken from the US TV show Westwing [[“our capacity to rise to the challenge before us may well be limitless“)

Nice one Theresa :p

[honest man]

Get them out,labour in,

[144man]

Good point 144man. Of course you can’t say that out loud or you will be accused of “ignoring democracy”...!

By the way, I think you should go ahead and start up that party! You sound like you know what you’re doing and what you stand for... and that’s a great party name too :p

I haven't got the energy now that I've hit 70, and one Vince Cable is quite enough:)

[westgrandboulevard]

And if you did find you have the energy now you've hit 70, a speed camera would surely catch ya....:[[