Motown/Disco/Supremes

[aarondillon2011@gmail.com]

Anyone care to speculate what may have been if the Supremes had went full blown into Disco with their 1975 album? Any why didn't Motown pursue a more disco sound of the late 70's? Yes I know there are a few disco songs and albums during that period.

[marv2]

I don't know,but "He's My Man" was a U.S. Billboard Disco number 1 hit in 1975.

[aarondillon2011@gmail.com]

Not a bad song but I think it needed that typical disco instrumental break

[marv2]

Not a bad song but I think it needed that typical disco instrumental break

There is also an extended version.

[aarondillon2011@gmail.com]

I wonder if that version would have faired a little better

[marv2]

I wonder if that version would have faired a little better

Now I'm wondering that now. It was a true dance record and vocals were superb. Speaking of Disco, 40 years ago this week "Love Hangover" by Diana Ross was the number one record.

[Bluebrock]

I wonder if that version would have faired a little better
They cut some magnificent uptempo stuff on those final three albums. Most of the material was strong enough, the girls were in fine voice and they looked sensational but they did not sound like the traditional Supremes from the Diana and Jean eras. They were in a catch 22 situation. Should they maintain their sound and be accused of not evolving , or should they attempt to update their sound and be accused of selling out? They couldn't win. Having said that it didn't really matter in the long run. Motown had lost interest in the Supremes and didn't promote them nearly enough.

[sup_fan]

IMO He's My Man is a nice song and kinda catchy. but i felt most of the Sup 75 songs were what i call "generic disco" meaning that they were songs anyone could sing. Love Hangover is totally Diana. it's hard to imagine anyone else. Same with the original I Will Survive and many other songs of the era.

when the girls did I'm Gonna Let My Heart Do the Walking, they seemed to be gathering speed. out of the sessions for Sup 75, i think the best track was I Could Never Recover. that's the one that seems to most of a new sound for the girls. a tougher, go-get-em mentality, great vocals, etc. IGLMHDTW really seems to establish a potential sound for the girls and if they'd both had the support of Motown and had some unity within the group, things might have been different.

this sound really was solidified with the MS&S lp and songs like Driving Wheel, Love I Never Knew and especially Let Yourself Go. again had they not been fighting internally, had Pedro not been involved, had motown supported them, things might have been different

also the issue of follow up single. while i like a lot of the tracks on HE, after the power of IGLMHDTW, they needed a great follow up. to me, none of the tracks on HE quite cut it. the vocals of the single, amazing production and track, the woo-hoo-woo-hoo backing vocals, nothing else quite sparkled like that. i think the title track is great but it's 180 degrees different. slower paced, more mysterious in tone and sound, lacks a catchy chorus. they should have gone directly to Let Yourself Go. both are in major keys, clear singable choruses. it's like how Baby Love and Come See About Me were patterned after WDOLG. Driving Wheel was the wrong follow up. perhaps has the follow up to Let Yourself it might have worked.

[Bluebrock]

IMO He's My Man is a nice song and kinda catchy. but i felt most of the Sup 75 songs were what i call "generic disco" meaning that they were songs anyone could sing. Love Hangover is totally Diana. it's hard to imagine anyone else. Same with the original I Will Survive and many other songs of the era.

when the girls did I'm Gonna Let My Heart Do the Walking, they seemed to be gathering speed. out of the sessions for Sup 75, i think the best track was I Could Never Recover. that's the one that seems to most of a new sound for the girls. a tougher, go-get-em mentality, great vocals, etc. IGLMHDTW really seems to establish a potential sound for the girls and if they'd both had the support of Motown and had some unity within the group, things might have been different.

this sound really was solidified with the MS&S lp and songs like Driving Wheel, Love I Never Knew and especially Let Yourself Go. again had they not been fighting internally, had Pedro not been involved, had motown supported them, things might have been different

also the issue of follow up single. while i like a lot of the tracks on HE, after the power of IGLMHDTW, they needed a great follow up. to me, none of the tracks on HE quite cut it. the vocals of the single, amazing production and track, the woo-hoo-woo-hoo backing vocals, nothing else quite sparkled like that. i think the title track is great but it's 180 degrees different. slower paced, more mysterious in tone and sound, lacks a catchy chorus. they should have gone directly to Let Yourself Go. both are in major keys, clear singable choruses. it's like how Baby Love and Come See About Me were patterned after WDOLG. Driving Wheel was the wrong follow up. perhaps has the follow up to Let Yourself it might have worked.

I think "your whats missing in my life" would have been a great follow up to "iglmhdtw". The whole album was strong from start to finish but perhaps devoid of many potential hits.

[daviddh]

Surprised what's missing in my life wasn't a single

[jobeterob]

I think it was. It was just a quick failure

[daviddh]

Bend A Little was really good.my pick for single

[Motown Eddie]

Anyone care to speculate what may have been if the Supremes had went full blown into Disco with their 1975 album? Any why didn't Motown pursue a more disco sound of the late 70's? Yes I know there are a few disco songs and albums during that period.

Perhaps it was because Mary Wilson didn't really care for Disco [[according to what she said about disco music in her second book). However, The Supremes might have been able to get back on top of the music world if they went head long into Disco [[with more songs like "Gonna Let My Heart Do The Walking") and if Motown had put a full blown marketing campaign behind them.

[franjoy56]

I think it was. It was just a quick failure this song was not releasd as a single

[franjoy56]

im referring to your whats missing in my life. It ws performed on soul train in 76

[franjoy56]

This group had great potential. Only you reworke w more of a disco flavor could have worked as a folow up t walking and released in sept of 76

[marv2]

This group had great potential. Only you reworke w more of a disco flavor could have worked as a folow up t walking and released in sept of 76

"Driving Wheel" was a fine record, but they were singing the chorus up front and Scherrie was leading from behind. They needed songs/recordings with more rhythm and percussion....heavy on the percussion at that time.

[daviddh]

the last three albums were good and No Andantess!!!! all vocals by Supremes. I think Its All Been Said B4 could have done something along with Sha La Bandit. I like the original version of High Energy as opposed to the released version.
MSS is filled with great high energy vocals.

[Jimi LaLumia]

It's All Been Said Before was perfect for pop top 40 at that moment in time, whoever pulled that from being a single really f***ed up their chances to be re established at Top 40 radio, which they needed to do more than anything else

[Bluebrock]

It's All Been Said Before was perfect for pop top 40 at that moment in time, whoever pulled that from being a single really f***ed up their chances to be re established at Top 40 radio, which they needed to do more than anything else
Totally agree Jimi. It was a mighty fine pop-disco song. It could have done with being a little longer but otherwise it was perfect for top 40 radio. He's my man could have done better had it followed IABSB

[daviddh]

I heard a remix of Where Do I Go From here that was really good, so much better than the original. made it so much better and if that version was released in 75, think it could have been a hit

[daviddh]

Bluebrock, since I respect your opinion. what is your take on Bad Weather.
I never cared for it and it took a while for me to warm to it but now, I think the vocals are good and the lyrics but to me it sounds over produced. no real climax at all. I always thought this song needed a remix,.but the version on the pink box set was a bit better.;like how it fades and comes back in

[Jimi LaLumia]

Bad weather is, in a word, clunky.. and the record felt like it was several minutes of waiting for it to really get started, but it never did.. I was rooting for the 70's Supremes [[and writing about them) every step of the way, but this was just Bad News..When I heard "The Day Will Come Between Sunday And Monday" i was like,'why wasn't THAT a single? why wasn't the cover version of "Bridge Over Troubled Waters" a single? even "Tossin And Turnin" but of course Motown didn't own the publishing which is where the money is, so there ya go

[johnny_raven]

"It's Time To Break Down" should have been the follow up single to "Stoned Love"!

[daviddh]

Agreed.I liked Shine On Me as well. Think I read Together We Can Make Sweet Music was considered but then the Spinners released it in 71.

[Motown Eddie]

Bad weather is, in a word, clunky.. and the record felt like it was several minutes of waiting for it to really get started, but it never did.. I was rooting for the 70's Supremes [[and writing about them) every step of the way, but this was just Bad News..When I heard "The Day Will Come Between Sunday And Monday" i was like,'why wasn't THAT a single? why wasn't the cover version of "Bridge Over Troubled Waters" a single? even "Tossin And Turnin" but of course Motown didn't own the publishing which is where the money is, so there ya go

Not owning the publishing to a song [[like 'Tossin And Turning') hasn't stopped Motown from releasing a song as a single before. Some examples include Michael Jackson's 'Rockin' Robin'; The Supremes & Four Tops' 'River Deep Mountain High', Stevie Wonder's 'Blowing In The Wind' & DRATS & The Tempts' 'I'm Gonna Make You Love Me'.

[Bluebrock]

Bluebrock, since I respect your opinion. what is your take on Bad Weather.
I never cared for it and it took a while for me to warm to it but now, I think the vocals are good and the lyrics but to me it sounds over produced. no real climax at all. I always thought this song needed a remix,.but the version on the pink box set was a bit better.;like how it fades and comes back in
I loved Bad Weather David, in fact it was one of my favourite Supremes songs of any era. I think it should have been a big hit but it followed the dismal Jimmy Webb album which all but killed off Jean's Supremes career. I would have loved a Stevie produced Supremes album but by this time the internal strife within the group was at an all time low and nothing could save them, but yes i adored Bad Weather,

[Bluebrock]

"It's Time To Break Down" should have been the follow up single to "Stoned Love"!
Agreed Johnny. They should have put this out to follow Stoned Love. It could have been a sizeable hit.

[Bluebrock]

Bad weather is, in a word, clunky.. and the record felt like it was several minutes of waiting for it to really get started, but it never did.. I was rooting for the 70's Supremes [[and writing about them) every step of the way, but this was just Bad News..When I heard "The Day Will Come Between Sunday And Monday" i was like,'why wasn't THAT a single? why wasn't the cover version of "Bridge Over Troubled Waters" a single? even "Tossin And Turnin" but of course Motown didn't own the publishing which is where the money is, so there ya go
Jimi - i don't think BOTW could have been a success so soon after Simon and Garfunkel's smash hit version. Maybe a few years down the line but not just a year or two after the original had hit big

[daviddh]

I liked their original material like Time To Break Down.
agree, the Webb lp was a mess. I think I liked 2 tracks. Keep It Hid and Silent Voices.
also When Can Brown Begin was lovely but I would have preferred 3 part harmony ,not Blossoms.
I liked BW but ,to me it wasn't danceable like Gonna Let My Heart was in 76. it needed something .

[Jimi LaLumia]

The Supremes R&B version of "Bridge" would have been recieved like Issac Hayes Top Twenty version of "Never Can Say Goodbye" in 1971, or Aretha's "Bridge Over Troubled Water' which went to #6 pop in 1971, just a year after The Supremes 1970 cover..there are numerous examples of r&b covers of white pop hits during the Jean Terrell era, which is why i think "Bridge' would have also been a great choice for a single.. Aretha was notorious in this regard; she went Top Ten with "I Say A Little Prayer" only one year after Dionne Warwick went Top Ten with that song.. as Tom Jones might say, back then it was "..Not Unusual"

[marv2]

The Supremes R&B version of "Bridge" would have been recieved like Issac Hayes Top Twenty version of "Never Can Say Goodbye" in 1971, or Aretha's "Bridge Over Troubled Water' which went to #6 pop in 1971, just a year after The Supremes 1970 cover..there are numerous examples of r&b covers of white pop hits during the Jean Terrell era, which is why i think "Bridge' would have also been a great choice for a single.. Aretha was notorious in this regard; she went Top Ten with "I Say A Little Prayer" only one year after Dionne Warwick went Top Ten with that song.. as Tom Jones might say, back then it was "..Not Unusual"

Their version of Steams' "Na Na Na Kiss Him Goodbye" was also a top track.

[Jimi LaLumia]

yes, that rocked, actually..

[marv2]

The rhythm track is kicking and the ladies singing in unison makes it rock for me.......


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFVW90ssieI

[rod_rick]

The rhythm track is kicking and the ladies singing in unison makes it rock for me.......


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFVW90ssieI

This is one of my favorites and the breakdown was really funky, imo I enjoyed the entire album from start to finish except for Come Together.

[thommg]

"It's Time To Break Down" should have been the follow up single to "Stoned Love"!

I thought it would be as they performed it on The Flip Wilson Show. At least, I think it was Flip Wilson.

[greg jones]

It's All Been Said Before was perfect for pop top 40 at that moment in time, whoever pulled that from being a single really f***ed up their chances to be re established at Top 40 radio, which they needed to do more than anything else

I've often wondered if the reason that it was cancelled was because of Mike Curb and Berry Gordy having some disagreements around this time, especially since he didn't use many Jobete published songs. Mike Curb was also trying to break his contract with Berry on his 1/2 ownership of the MC country label around this time and take TG Shepherd and Pat Boone with him to his Warner/Curb label. Plus, I think that Berry wasn't happy when Curb struck gold with The 4 Seasons on Who Loves You and December 1963 after they left Motown/MoWest. Curb, I know was jealous that Frankie Valli solo material had to go to Larry Uttal and Private Stock for that 3 year period and beat him to releasing My Eyes Adored You that the 4 Seasons recorded while at Motown/MoWest.

I know the plans for a Supremes album being produced by Michael Lloyd and Mike Curb quickly came to end after It's All Been Said Before was cancelled. Michael and Mike wanted to sprinkle the album with some more '50's/ '60's remakes, similar to what they had done with other Curb artists and on The Shoop Shoop Song [[It's In His Kiss.)

[Jimi LaLumia]

wow, I never heard any of this! Big news.. thanks Greg.. i thought it had something to do with publishing but it obviously went much deeper.. and helped keep the group underwater, sadly..

[Bluebrock]

I thought it would be as they performed it on The Flip Wilson Show. At least, I think it was Flip Wilson.
There is certainly footage on youtube showing them performing it. One would assume it was at least considered as a possible single?

[Bluebrock]

The Supremes R&B version of "Bridge" would have been recieved like Issac Hayes Top Twenty version of "Never Can Say Goodbye" in 1971, or Aretha's "Bridge Over Troubled Water' which went to #6 pop in 1971, just a year after The Supremes 1970 cover..there are numerous examples of r&b covers of white pop hits during the Jean Terrell era, which is why i think "Bridge' would have also been a great choice for a single.. Aretha was notorious in this regard; she went Top Ten with "I Say A Little Prayer" only one year after Dionne Warwick went Top Ten with that song.. as Tom Jones might say, back then it was "..Not Unusual"
Maybe, maybe not. Sadly we shall never know but i remain unconvinced, but it is great to discuss these subjects with you and the other guys on the forum.

[Jimi LaLumia]

absolutely, you are a breath of fresh air here.. Salute!

[daviddh]

New Ways was really good except Come Together. They should have used something else but the LP was strong.alot of great tracks.think they should have dropped alot of the Broadway style songs and incorporated more of their LP cuts in to their live shows, perhaps it would have helped the album sales a bit. wasn't the track May His Love Shine On Me from this session and a few Mary led tracks, sorry I don't remember the titles as they were removed from You Tube very quickly. I think Motown was tryn to keep the 60s image or maybe Mary was and the producers were tryn to push the group forward. catch 22 maybe. but I do think the Jean led group had some good hits and lp tracks.
I really liked Now The Bitter from the FJ album .kinda funky

[daviddh]

It's all been said should have never been cancelled as a single or life beats

[Jimi LaLumia]

well, it WAS a single in Australia..https://www.discogs.com/sell/release/5927644?ev=rb

[Ollie9]

As from the time of the High Energy album being released, a complete change of image was needed. I would have toned down some of the frantic dance choreography and had them wearing individually designed outfits as opposed to matching sparkly frocks. Show tunes would have been banished from live shows and replaced with some of the many great songs from their recent albums.
There was a lot competition from other girl groups at this time which is why i believe the group had to move a little away from their traditional glamour image to present themselves as something new. I think it might perhaps have been a good idea if they had named themselves the New Supremes from the offset to extinguish from the beginning the obligatory comparissons to Diana.
I never thought "Your My Driving Wheel" a great choice for a single. "I Dont Want To Be Tied Down" or the stunning "We Should Be CloserTogether" sound far more commercial to my ears.

[Jimi LaLumia]

frantic dance is an understatement, the routines were ridiculous to watch and take seriously.. the name Supremes was associated with elegance and there was nothing elegant about those 'escaped from an institution ' speed freak a go go moves. they should have stuck to the stand there and sing program, even for the up tempo dance songs, we knew they were dance songs, we didn't need visual demonstrations.

[honest man]

frantic dance is an understatement, the routines were ridiculous to watch and take seriously.. the name Supremes was associated with elegance and there was nothing elegant about those 'escaped from an institution ' speed freak a go go moves. they should have stuck to the stand there and sing program, even for the up tempo dance songs, we knew they were dance songs, we didn't need visual demonstrations.
Could not have put it better Jimi cannot watch those clips they are terrible so much ego etc mainly by the eldest member,so sad for their previous legacy.cheers.

[Bluebrock]

As from the time of the High Energy album being released, a complete change of image was needed. I would have toned down some of the frantic dance choreography and had them wearing individually designed outfits as opposed to matching sparkly frocks. Show tunes would have been banished from live shows and replaced with some of the many great songs from their recent albums.
There was a lot competition from other girl groups at this time which is why i believe the group had to move a little away from their traditional glamour image to present themselves as something new. I think it might perhaps have been a good idea if they had named themselves the New Supremes from the offset to extinguish from the beginning the obligatory comparissons to Diana.
I never thought "Your My Driving Wheel" a great choice for a single. "I Dont Want To Be Tied Down" or the stunning "We Should Be CloserTogether" sound far more commercial to my ears.
I agree Ollie, Driving Wheel was a poor choice for the 1st single. It's a decent enough song but not strong enough to be a major hit single. My heart sank when i heard it - not because i didn't like it but i kind of knew it all but signaled the end of the group. There were several other better potential hits on that album , even though as a whole it wasn't as strong as HIGH ENERGY.

[Bluebrock]

frantic dance is an understatement, the routines were ridiculous to watch and take seriously.. the name Supremes was associated with elegance and there was nothing elegant about those 'escaped from an institution ' speed freak a go go moves. they should have stuck to the stand there and sing program, even for the up tempo dance songs, we knew they were dance songs, we didn't need visual demonstrations.
I agree with you yet again Jimi. The Supremes were far more refined than these unsophisticated "dance" moves. Though they still sounded great they no longer were the Supremes to these ears.

[Ollie9]

I agree Ollie, Driving Wheel was a poor choice for the 1st single. It's a decent enough song but not strong enough to be a major hit single. My heart sank when i heard it - not because i didn't like it but i kind of knew it all but signaled the end of the group. There were several other better potential hits on that album , even though as a whole it wasn't as strong as HIGH ENERGY.

It was indeed a very very poor choice for a lead single Bluebrock. As you say there were so many much stronger songs on the album. Bad single choices killed the album which is a great shame as there was potential there. It was great that the group had three lead singers. I wish they could have recorded a least one more album together.

[RossHolloway]

Does anyone know if the group continued to record after the release of their last album, Mary, Scherrie and Susaye? Or what the last song they recorded together as a group?

[Bluebrock]

It was indeed a very very poor choice for a lead single Bluebrock. As you say there were so many much stronger songs on the album. Bad single choices killed the album which is a great shame as there was potential there. It was great that the group had three lead singers. I wish they could have recorded a least one more album together.
Me too Ollie.

[daviddh]

I think all the songs from MSS were released. I don't think there are any other tracks left except Jean led tracks

[sup_fan]

I think the dance moves, when properly executed, worked. Problem is they were sloppy. the actual planned choreography for Let Yourself Go works very well. but you mary making mistakes, Susaye not knowing what they were doing at the end and having to keep looking over, etc. For this type of dancing to work, you have to be 100% in sync and hitting your mark.

As for It's All Been Said Before, i've not heard that story before about Mike Curb. very interesting and certainly a possibility. The story i've heard is that Mary and Pedro vetoed IABSB because it's a full Scherrie lead and they insisted on either a Mary lead or co-lead. Motown was wanting Scherrie

[Bluebrock]

I think all the songs from MSS were released. I don't think there are any other tracks left except Jean led tracks

There may be a couple more alternate versions still in the vaults from the Scherrie years but very little from what I am told. However there remains many Jean led songs gathering dust in the vault which need to be released. Hopefully that much promised lost and found double cd will one day emerge.

[RossHolloway]

There may be a couple more alternate versions still in the vaults from the Scherrie years but very little from what I am told. However there remains many Jean led songs gathering dust in the vault which need to be released. Hopefully that much promised lost and found double cd will one day emerge.
Lost and Found or Expanded Editions.

[Bluebrock]

Lost and Found or Expanded Editions.
I meant lost and found Ross but I would hardly object if the unreleased tracks arrived on expanded editions. To quote Brenda Russell and Oleta Adams "i don't care how you get here, get here if you can".

[sup_fan]

I had asked Andy somewhere [[either here or FB) about the various versions of I'm Gonna Let My Heart. There's a version that the girls used on Soul Train and Amer Bandstand that's not been released. he said that they had looked into it but then discovered Susaye's amazing version so included it instead. apparently there are quite a few mixes of Walking that could be included in future releases.

[sup_fan]

Wonder if there's enough to do a "Sups" dance mixes release - group and solo. so are there additional dance mix versions of Diana songs from Ross or Boss? 12" version of Red Hot? more unreleased Sup dance tracks? Scherrie songs like Fly or others?

[Jimi LaLumia]

speaking of wrong 1st singles "Red Hot" was so wrong for Miss Wilson.. "I Love A Warm Summer Night" was such a perfect fit for her, custom made.."Red Hot' was too, for lack of a better word, goofy, she didn't sound at home with it.. there were quite a few good singles choices on that album but "Red Hot' wasn't one of them

[Bluebrock]

speaking of wrong 1st singles "Red Hot" was so wrong for Miss Wilson.. "I Love A Warm Summer Night" was such a perfect fit for her, custom made.."Red Hot' was too, for lack of a better word, goofy, she didn't sound at home with it.. there were quite a few good singles choices on that album but "Red Hot' wasn't one of them
I thought Mary's album was a stinker with just a couple of decent songs ILAWSN being one of them and "your the light that guides my way~ being the other. Mary's vocals were not good though i do believe she was pregnant whilst recording the album so that could account for that. I think Motown treated her shabbily. Give her a lousy selection of songs, fail to promote it and then drop her like a lead balloon. Mission accomplished. She deserved better than that.

[Jimi LaLumia]

agreed..lots of wrong moves all along the way, sad to say..

[sup_fan]

Red Hot seems more like a novelty song IMO. unless you're Weird Al or something, having your solo debut being something of a throwaway doesn't seem to strike me as solid career planning. But I think it was clear that the recording deal was simply part of Motown's plan to get her to throw out her law suit.

The 4 Gus Dungeon tracks are far superior to anything on that debut album

[sup_fan]

Another issue with the MSC and MSS lineups and discos. the wardrobe selections were not wise selections. Long flowing chiffon gowns [[like the green ones or the ones they wore on Tonight Show and He's My Man) are not the right design for elaborate dance moves. Those black and silver sequin 'Jesus Robes' were terrible. not good to dance in, Mary's had about 50 yards of excess material in the sleeves, Susaye looked about 3" tall in hers. The red sequin wrap gowns were much more contemporary, and suited to dancing. some of the others that MSS wore [[the brown stripped ones in the High Energy vids or the fringe Udo Live ones) were better

[Motown Eddie]

Lost and Found or Expanded Editions.

Since we can't even get a "Deluxe Edition" for "Supremes A Go-Go" on it's 50th Anniversary, I wouldn't count on any more "Lost & Found/Deluxe Editions" for The '70s Supremes.

[daviddh]

A GO GO is a go go but there were waiting on studio time to finish the album

[Bluebrock]

[QUOTE=Motown Eddie;342171]Since we can't even get a "Deluxe Edition" for "Supremes A Go-Go" on it's 50th Anniversary, I wouldn't count on any more "Lost & Found/Deluxe Editions" for The '70s Supremes.[/QUOTE

Never say never Eddie. I am not saying they are imminent but they could well appear some day.

[marybrewster]

Surprised what's missing in my life wasn't a single

It was the B side of "You're My Driving Wheel".

[marybrewster]

Give her a lousy selection of songs, fail to promote it and then drop her like a lead balloon. Mission accomplished. She deserved better than that.

I agree with the sentiment; Motown gave MW a contract to "shut her up". Once the LP was released, they fulfilled their obligation and cut her loose. She should have settled for a MULTI-record deal. Coulda, shoulda.

I am surprised though, with Hal Davis producing, that the record didn't fare better. Hal had a lot of success in the 70's with the Jackson 5. I can't believe he would intentionally release a subpar product.

Someone said above that "Red Hot" was more of a novelty song. I tend to agree, with all that screeching and woo-hoos. Mary couldn't have been serious.

And can we just talk for a second on how the 45 referenced Mary "Martin". LOL. Tell me THAT was unintentional.

[marybrewster]

One more thought:

When I listen to "MSS", I hear magic.

But when I've seen clips of them singing these songs live, for example "IGLMHDTW" from the Mike Douglas Show, it comes across as a HOT MESS. Mary trying to keep up with Scherrie; Susaye blowing both out of the water. For starters, Mary and Susaye's mics are turned up WAY too high. And Mary looks like an glamazon towering over her group mates. The best part is the audience. They are dumbfounded.

I guess it's hard to recreate live what you create in the studio. And I doubt appearances like this did little to boost sales.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzbZbZ4oC5c

[danman869]

One more thought:

When I listen to "MSS", I hear magic.

But when I've seen clips of them singing these songs live, for example "IGLMHDTW" from the Mike Douglas Show, it comes across as a HOT MESS. Mary trying to keep up with Scherrie; Susaye blowing both out of the water. For starters, Mary and Susaye's mics are turned up WAY too high. And Mary looks like an glamazon towering over her group mates. The best part is the audience. They are dumbfounded.

I guess it's hard to recreate live what you create in the studio. And I doubt appearances like this did little to boost sales.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzbZbZ4oC5c

MaryB, you really hit the nail on the head. It's just a big...mess. Visually, Mary should have been where Susaye was, Susaye should have been where Scherrie was, and Scherrie should have been in the middle. Maybe Mary had Scherrie's mic? The vocal runs and the choreography is frenetic. The music [[whether a live house band or a pre-recorded track) is just a tad too low in volume.

The interview is fun, but Mary comes across as very...controlling. What was behind Mary's comment about Susaye [[not) getting rich off of her songs on Stevie Wonder's latest album? It was "funny"--it seemed more catty. I love Mary Wilson, but it's clear things were slightly strained in the group at that point. Vocally, in the studio, they sounded terrific...but live, such as on this Mike Douglas appearance, their blend was off, their mics not adjusted to their best advantages. Sigh.

[jobeterob]

Hasn't it been said that Mary and/or Pedro did not want It's All Been Said Before to be the single........so it was cancelled? A terrible decision.

[marybrewster]

MaryB, you really hit the nail on the head. It's just a big...mess. Visually, Mary should have been where Susaye was, Susaye should have been where Scherrie was, and Scherrie should have been in the middle. Maybe Mary had Scherrie's mic? The vocal runs and the choreography is frenetic. The music [[whether a live house band or a pre-recorded track) is just a tad too low in volume.

The interview is fun, but Mary comes across as very...controlling. What was behind Mary's comment about Susaye [[not) getting rich off of her songs on Stevie Wonder's latest album? It was "funny"--it seemed more catty. I love Mary Wilson, but it's clear things were slightly strained in the group at that point. Vocally, in the studio, they sounded terrific...but live, such as on this Mike Douglas appearance, their blend was off, their mics not adjusted to their best advantages. Sigh.

danman-

I agree with your assessment of Mary "taking over" this interview. There are several instances you can find on YouTube where Mary acts similar. It's interesting that Mary would talk about Diana doing the same exact thing in "Dreamgirl". The only difference, I think, is that Mary wants to make sure that the audience knows this is HER group, meaning, with the "revolving door" of members, SHE is the original. In fact, many of these interviews start out with a nod that she's been there the longest.

I think what is interesting too is many have said that the 70's Supremes, especially by the MSS years, weren't promoted. From what I can tell, the Mike Douglas Show [[where they appeared several times) was a pretty big show. In fact, it won Emmy's in 1977 and 1978. The only difference I see is that, what Ed Sullivan did for the 60's Supremes, Mike COULDN'T do for the 70's Supremes, simply because it was a DAYTIME show. One could surmise that the viewing audience was seniors and housewives; hardly the "record buying public".

[sup_fan]

I think I remember reading old posts where someone said Cindy mentioned how challenging it was for them to do Stoned Love live. And listen to MJC doing Nathan Jones on Tonight Show - the band is ghastly, although the girls vocals are strong.

By the 70s, the Sup songs were heavily produced and so there's no way to approximate that sound live. multiple layers of vocals, heavy orchestration, etc.

but even with that, I think they could have done more to approximate the sound. On that same Mike Douglas they do Don't Let My Teardrops Bother You. The blend is much better and it's one of Mary's best live vocal performances of the era.

[sup_fan]

Also my understanding is that by the Scherrie years, Mary or Mary/Pedro were the primary decision makers for the group. Interviews were lead by her, decisions on gowns and song lineups for the show, etc. Although it was a group in that there were 3 vocalists, in regards to the strategic direction it appears primarily to be Mary.

[Motown Eddie]

One more thought:

When I listen to "MSS", I hear magic.

But when I've seen clips of them singing these songs live, for example "IGLMHDTW" from the Mike Douglas Show, it comes across as a HOT MESS. Mary trying to keep up with Scherrie; Susaye blowing both out of the water. For starters, Mary and Susaye's mics are turned up WAY too high. And Mary looks like an glamazon towering over her group mates. The best part is the audience. They are dumbfounded.

I guess it's hard to recreate live what you create in the studio. And I doubt appearances like this did little to boost sales.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzbZbZ4oC5c

Appearances like this one on "The Mike Douglas Show" didn't do much to help boost sales. Indeed while the vocal talent of the group is there, the frantic dance moves, the way that Mary towers over the other Supremes and the interview [[which shows some of the friction within The Supremes) doesn't do them any favors.

[Motown Eddie]

Hasn't it been said that Mary and/or Pedro did not want It's All Been Said Before to be the single........so it was cancelled? A terrible decision.

Didn't even hear "It's All Been Said Before" until the CD version of DRATS' "Anthology" in 1987 and always felt that it was just another 'missed opportunity' by Motown. If it's true that Mary and/or Pedro nixed the release of the song as a single then it's their loss. And while "I'm Gonna Let My Heart Do The Walking" was a good foray into '70s Disco, more songs like "It's All Been Said Before" [[with it's 'top 40' feel) might have been the better choice for a single.

[marv2]

Red Hot seems more like a novelty song IMO. unless you're Weird Al or something, having your solo debut being something of a throwaway doesn't seem to strike me as solid career planning. But I think it was clear that the recording deal was simply part of Motown's plan to get her to throw out her law suit.

The 4 Gus Dungeon tracks are far superior to anything on that debut album

I loved "Red Hot" the single ,album and 12" versions. Mary Wilson does "James Brown"! He got play in the clubs and on the radio in select cities. I also like with Donald Bumps did with this remix:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQSnPv3Gyko

[daviddh]

didn't like Red Hot. thought the lp was a mess except for Warm Summer Nights and Pick Up The Pieces. they were right on for her voice. there is a single mix of Red Hot that I think is better.
iliked the 70s supremes , there were times when they were great and times when.....not so great . 'BG offered to manage the group ,once with Jean and then when HIgh Energy was doing well he offered again. MW turned him down but complained Motown wasn't helping them. MW turned down Mike Curb because she felt the songs weren't right for the supremes. hmmm I see a pattern. if you want good management,dont turn down the owner if he offers to help and if you want a pop hit , you have to sing pop songs, not disco.
sorry , I think MW killed the supremes along with her husband. I think she stated when turning BG down.....:I don't want to loose control again" but what difference did it make when she was going solo anyway.just my opinion

[Bluebrock]

danman-

I agree with your assessment of Mary "taking over" this interview. There are several instances you can find on YouTube where Mary acts similar. It's interesting that Mary would talk about Diana doing the same exact thing in "Dreamgirl". The only difference, I think, is that Mary wants to make sure that the audience knows this is HER group, meaning, with the "revolving door" of members, SHE is the original. In fact, many of these interviews start out with a nod that she's been there the longest.

I think what is interesting too is many have said that the 70's Supremes, especially by the MSS years, weren't promoted. From what I can tell, the Mike Douglas Show [[where they appeared several times) was a pretty big show. In fact, it won Emmy's in 1977 and 1978. The only difference I see is that, what Ed Sullivan did for the 60's Supremes, Mike COULDN'T do for the 70's Supremes, simply because it was a DAYTIME show. One could surmise that the viewing audience was seniors and housewives; hardly the "record buying public".
i Prefered to listen to this line up of the group rather than watch them. Mary demanded centre stage which you cannot really blame her for because she was the only original member, but she both Scherrie and Susaye had more natural talent than Mary and both she and they knew it. This line up was never going to last long just as the JMC or JML versions weren't. It is a pity they couldn't have got along better because they could produce magic in the studio.

[Bluebrock]

didn't like Red Hot. thought the lp was a mess except for Warm Summer Nights and Pick Up The Pieces. they were right on for her voice. there is a single mix of Red Hot that I think is better.
iliked the 70s supremes , there were times when they were great and times when.....not so great . 'BG offered to manage the group ,once with Jean and then when HIgh Energy was doing well he offered again. MW turned him down but complained Motown wasn't helping them. MW turned down Mike Curb because she felt the songs weren't right for the supremes. hmmm I see a pattern. if you want good management,dont turn down the owner if he offers to help and if you want a pop hit , you have to sing pop songs, not disco.
sorry , I think MW killed the supremes along with her husband. I think she stated when turning BG down.....:I don't want to loose control again" but what difference did it make when she was going solo anyway.just my opinion
I agree david. Mary wanted too much control and along with said husband made some shocking decisions. She alienated herself and as a result the group was thought to be too much trouble to continue with. Harsh words maybe but many insiders have told me a similar story. Sad. Very sad.

[daviddh]

I do think that she , as the last original member deserved her props but, I think she felt she was in the same league as Diana, and as a result, she has caused some issues. she obviously was not, although she has turned out to be a fine entertainer and proven herself over the years.
it seemed funny to me she she complained how Motown treated her and Flo but then she treated the other supremes ladies, including Cindy exactly the same way.?? she stood by why her husband fired Cindy?? strange to me. but yet Cindy was the one who always came back to help her.
I do think the ladies had great harmony but ,in my opinion, they suffered from poor single choices and poor management.
they needed BG back in control and not MW. she couldn't pick a hit single if her career depended on it. and it did

[blackguy69]

theres alot here but ill just throw my 2 cents into this. Vocally it just sounded like they were competing for the lead. Visually, they shouldve gotten rid of the 60's gown by this point. but i can understand that they still wore the gowns, if they ditched them and went for something more plainer or simplier, i think we as fans were complain that they ditched the gowns. I understand why Mary didnt want motown to manage the group again. if they did then Scherrie would be doing all of the leads and Mary would be back in the same position as if Diana was still there. We can speculate what was really going on and we can hear stories of those who saw certain things. but unless we were there on the daily, we will never fully know what was going on

[marv2]

didn't like Red Hot. thought the lp was a mess except for Warm Summer Nights and Pick Up The Pieces. they were right on for her voice. there is a single mix of Red Hot that I think is better.
iliked the 70s supremes , there were times when they were great and times when.....not so great . 'BG offered to manage the group ,once with Jean and then when HIgh Energy was doing well he offered again. MW turned him down but complained Motown wasn't helping them. MW turned down Mike Curb because she felt the songs weren't right for the supremes. hmmm I see a pattern. if you want good management,dont turn down the owner if he offers to help and if you want a pop hit , you have to sing pop songs, not disco.
sorry , I think MW killed the supremes along with her husband. I think she stated when turning BG down.....:I don't want to loose control again" but what difference did it make when she was going solo anyway.just my opinion

You are wrong! Mary Wilson and her husband, Pedro Ferrer were the only ones that kept the Supremes going for as long as they did. They invested their own money. They hired Geoffrey Holder and Maria de Lavalade [[sp?) to revamp their act. They had Teddy Harris Jr as their musical conductor. You don't know what you are talking about. Why believe Berry all of a sudden when he flat out said that he washed his hands of the group and then went on to prove it by short changing EVERYONE at Motown with the exception of Diane Ross! You need to stop.

[Roberta75]

I do think that she , as the last original member deserved her props but, I think she felt she was in the same league as Diana, and as a result, she has caused some issues. she obviously was not, although she has turned out to be a fine entertainer and proven herself over the years.
it seemed funny to me she she complained how Motown treated her and Flo but then she treated the other supremes ladies, including Cindy exactly the same way.?? she stood by why her husband fired Cindy?? strange to me. but yet Cindy was the one who always came back to help her.
I do think the ladies had great harmony but ,in my opinion, they suffered from poor single choices and poor management.
they needed BG back in control and not MW. she couldn't pick a hit single if her career depended on it. and it did

In Marys defense daviddh she was frightened of the man she married and was probably real scared to defend Cindy. Beaten women are very very frightened and feel trapped. Pedro Ferrer beat Miss Wilson to a pulp which he will have to answer for one day. He and ike Turner and every other man that beats a woman are the lowest of the low. May God forgive all of them for there cowardly and vile behavior.

Roberta

[daviddh]

Marv.sorry I disagree.perhaps Mary kept it going but not well in my opinion .
Their last album was vocally wonderful.the ladies were talented but only I'm Gonna Let My Heart was close to be a hit.tremendous return to form but they didn't..couldn't keep it going

[sansradio]

Marv, I think you may be referring to Carmen de Lavallade, Mr. Holder's widow.

[marv2]

Marv, I think you may be referring to Carmen de Lavallade, Mr. Holder's widow.


Yes, that's her, the beautiful and very talented Carmen de Lavallade! Thank you Sansradio.

[marv2]

Marv.sorry I disagree.perhaps Mary kept it going but not well in my opinion .
Their last album was vocally wonderful.the ladies were talented but only I'm Gonna Let My Heart was close to be a hit.tremendous return to form but they didn't..couldn't keep it going

Just as we must give Holland-Dozier-Holland a lot of credit for the Original Supremes success, we must also give them their share of credit for the Supremes final recordings. Brian Holland and Edward Holland produced that last album, "Mary, Scherrie & Susaye". .

[sansradio]

Yes, that's her, the beautiful and very talented Carmen de Lavallade! Thank you Sansradio.

Not only is she beautiful and talented, she is also the most down-to-earth, gracious, and elegant celebrity I've ever had the pleasure to meet. I ran into her outside my old job; she struck up a conversation with me, and I turned to jelly. Mr. Holder was also incredibly friendly and warm. They don't make them like those two anymore.

[Bluebrock]

You are wrong! Mary Wilson and her husband, Pedro Ferrer were the only ones that kept the Supremes going for as long as they did. They invested their own money. They hired Geoffrey Holder and Maria de Lavalade [[sp?) to revamp their act. They had Teddy Harris Jr as their musical conductor. You don't know what you are talking about. Why believe Berry all of a sudden when he flat out said that he washed his hands of the group and then went on to prove it by short changing EVERYONE at Motown with the exception of Diane Ross! You need to stop.
We are all more than aware on this forum that you think Mary Wilson practically walks on water. Well sadly she doesn't, and neither does anyone else. Mary Wilson has her faults just like the rest of us, and she made some dreadful decisions with that vile creature Pedro who as Roberta rightly says beat her black and blue.
Both Mary and Pedro made themselves hugely unpopular with the wrong people at Motown. It was decided the Supremes were a problem they just did not need anymore and Berry wanted rid of them. He did it with the minimum of effort and Mary played right into his hands.
Mary deserves credit for her attempts to keep the group afloat but the damage had already been done and there was no way back once you had pissed off the executives at Motown.
Also Daviddh is entitled to express an opinion just as you and 1 are so you telling him "you need to stop" is not big and it is not clever.
You and i dislike each other but let us keep it all respectful and let all members who wish to contribute do so without us resorting to intimidating words. Thank you.

[Bluebrock]

In Marys defense daviddh she was frightened of the man she married and was probably real scared to defend Cindy. Beaten women are very very frightened and feel trapped. Pedro Ferrer beat Miss Wilson to a pulp which he will have to answer for one day. He and ike Turner and every other man that beats a woman are the lowest of the low. May God forgive all of them for there cowardly and vile behavior.

Roberta
Yes he will indeed answer to his dreadful behaviour one day Roberta. To beat a woman is beneath contempt and Mary must have been in an awful position at this time.

[marv2]

Not only is she beautiful and talented, she is also the most down-to-earth, gracious, and elegant celebrity I've ever had the pleasure to meet. I ran into her outside my old job; she struck up a conversation with me, and I turned to jelly. Mr. Holder was also incredibly friendly and warm. They don't make them like those two anymore.

You are a lucky one. I had always wanted to meet her from the first time I saw her in an old Ebony Magazine.

[honest man]

We are all more than aware on this forum that you think Mary Wilson practically walks on water. Well sadly she doesn't, and neither does anyone else. Mary Wilson has her faults just like the rest of us, and she made some dreadful decisions with that vile creature Pedro who as Roberta rightly says beat her black and blue.
Both Mary and Pedro made themselves hugely unpopular with the wrong people at Motown. It was decided the Supremes were a problem they just did not need anymore and Berry wanted rid of them. He did it with the minimum of effort and Mary played right into his hands.
Mary deserves credit for her attempts to keep the group afloat but the damage had already been done and there was no way back once you had pissed off the executives at Motown.
Also Daviddh is entitled to express an opinion just as you and 1 are so you telling him "you need to stop" is not big and it is not clever.
You and i dislike each other but let us keep it all respectful and let all members who wish to contribute do so without us resorting to intimidating words. Thank you. You Are so right mate.But watch what you say as things are known to get switched around on here.cheers.

[Bluebrock]

You Are so right mate.But watch what you say as things are known to get switched around on here.cheers.
Oh don't i know it!! Thank you anyway honest man.

[daviddh]

The last three albums were really good vocally and no Andantees!! The ladies were really getting stronger as a unit and Mary was getting stronger as well. She had tremendous growth during this time

[Bluebrock]

The last three albums were really good vocally and no Andantees!! The ladies were really getting stronger as a unit and Mary was getting stronger as well. She had tremendous growth during this time
Yes she did. Who knows what night have happened had the group been allowed to record a couple more albums, but as we know there was far too much friction within the group and towards Motown records as well. Something had to give and sadly it was the Supremes.

[smallworld]

I've been enjoying the Scherrie-led "You're What's Missing In My Life" lately. Was it standard procedure to record Scherrie leads for the [[eventual) Mary tracks, or is that track one of few examples? I'd love to hear a Scherrie version of "Early Morning Love".

[daviddh]

Sometimes it was to test the vocals..best vocal got it and sometimes they may have been planned as a duet. The song Touch was recorded with each lady singing lead ,then the song was split into a duet.same with Diana and marvin

[daviddh]

To bad Mary doesn't plan a reunion with these ladies now. I think they would Rock it

[Bluebrock]

To bad Mary doesn't plan a reunion with these ladies now. I think they would Rock it

Susaye said she would be up for it. Mary didn't seem quite as keen when I asked her earlier this year. Not sure about Scherrie.

[sup_fan]

i think a MSS reunion would not be wildly successful, except to a core of the fan base. Was anyone at the Scherrie and Susaye event a year or two ago? heard it was lightly attended. while I adore this lineup's recordings, their output is not recognized widely and so unless it was at a small club or intimate setting in a NY or LA, I doubt it would be worth the costs, logistics, rehearsal and effort.

it might have been more impactful with the release of the Jean and Scherrie sets to do some press events with that. They could do 2 or 3 songs, sign autographs, promote the releases, etc. but Mary skipped out on the Jean one and Cindy was not available for the Scherrie one.

[sup_fan]

back to the original topic

i'm surprised Motown never did any 12" remixes of the Sup songs from the era. With the songs doing very well on the Dance Charts, it would have made sense.

Also from previous threads on here, Motown did not want to pursue another lineup of Sups when Jean and Lynda left. Story goes that Berry finally gave in to Mary and signed them, guess he felt he owed her. So they recorded the Sup 75 lp with a variety of producers to see what might generate interest. when the Holland productions proved pretty good and fan/disco response was quite strong, Motown figured maybe they could bring the group back and it could be a strong disco act. that's when Motown offered to re-manage the group. they could see that Pedro was already f'ing things up and the problems were quickly mounting. Motown felt there was an opportunity to make money and wanted Scherrie on lead. When mary and Pedro said no to the management and insisted mary lead, that pretty much made Motown wash their hands

so the story goes at least

[Bluebrock]

back to the original topic

i'm surprised Motown never did any 12" remixes of the Sup songs from the era. With the songs doing very well on the Dance Charts, it would have made sense.

Also from previous threads on here, Motown did not want to pursue another lineup of Sups when Jean and Lynda left. Story goes that Berry finally gave in to Mary and signed them, guess he felt he owed her. So they recorded the Sup 75 lp with a variety of producers to see what might generate interest. when the Holland productions proved pretty good and fan/disco response was quite strong, Motown figured maybe they could bring the group back and it could be a strong disco act. that's when Motown offered to re-manage the group. they could see that Pedro was already f'ing things up and the problems were quickly mounting. Motown felt there was an opportunity to make money and wanted Scherrie on lead. When mary and Pedro said no to the management and insisted mary lead, that pretty much made Motown wash their hands

so the story goes at least
I'm afraid you have pretty much hit the nail on the head with your assessment. It pretty much tallies up with what I have been told by two well placed sources. It was before I became involved at Motown but survivors from the time have told me how the demise of the Supremes came about. Well stated sup fan.

[Jimi LaLumia]

true, there never were the standard 12 inch singles released on The Supremes at all..never dawned on me at the time.. DJs had to play them off the album which Im sure didnt make many of them happy in a 12 inch remix world of that time

[marybrewster]

When mary and Pedro said no to the management and insisted mary lead, that pretty much made Motown wash their hands

so the story goes at least

I don't doubt what you are saying as true, but the devil's advocate in me questions: did Mary REALLY have that much pull to say NO to Motown?

The bottom line, I think is, that Mary herself didn't want to change. Not the name. Not the sound. Not the image. She was living in 1976 like it was 1966. Except the champagne no longer was flowing. Basically everything she had taken for granted a decade before she now had to work for.

I mean, this is a woman that even in the 1980's was still wearing 60's and 70's Supremes gowns. If not with MSS, then at least when she struck out on her own, Mary should have ditched the gowns. And for sure ditched the 2 backup singers.

[Jimi LaLumia]

I think that is correct

[sup_fan]

Mary B - excellent points too. I'm going to guess that by 1973, mary was pretty worried. what would she do if not singing with the Sups? It had gotten to the point where Motown was done with the group. As were Jean and Lynda. so now where would that leave Mary? she had little to no major name recognition to establish somewhere else as a solo star. no tv or movie track record to go into that industry. This all begs the question as to whether Mary and Cindy "ruined" the hope for the Sups by no accepting Syreeta. I know i'm being VERY strong there, almost shocking! hehehe and I don't disagree with their decision to stay with jean. but by doing so they essentially killed off whatever minimal interest Berry and therefore Motown would have in the group post Diana. Everyone knows that no group lasts forever. they could have had more foresight to plan for the future by keeping in good graces with management

just an observation

[Jimi LaLumia]

well that's it..people act like Gordy wasn't the employer and everyone else was employees..well, they WERE!!

[daviddh]

BG once said If you do what I say ,Ill take you with me......the original line up did and was very successful but in the 70s,i think MW refused to go along with the program and found herself on the wrong side of the studio...so to speak

[Ollie9]

BG once said If you do what I say ,Ill take you with me......the original line up did and was very successful but in the 70s,i think MW refused to go along with the program and found herself on the wrong side of the studio...so to speak

I really don't think it fair to blame everything on Mary. She fought very hard to keep the Supremes going when Motown could not have cared less. I can well understand how she must have felt wary when Gordy surprisingly declared renewed interest in the group. Perhaps it was the wrong decision for the Supremes at the time, but clarity is easy in the full light of hindsight. :eek:

[blackguy69]

I really don't think it fair to blame everything on Mary. She fought very hard to keep the Supremes going when Motown could not have cared less. I can well understand how she must have felt wary when Gordy surprisingly declared renewed interest in the group. Perhaps it was the wrong decision for the Supremes at the time, but clarity is easy in the full light of hindsight. :eek:
I agree 100%. It's easy for everyone here to give their opinion, you've seen the story from start to finish, then give your opinion on what Mary should have or shouldn't have done. Those who know individuals who were around then might give a bit of the story here and there but more than likely don't know the full situation so we form our conclusions on a partial story. If anyone of us were in the same situation how would we respond?

[marv2]

I agree 100%. It's easy for everyone here to give their opinion, you've seen the story from start to finish, then give your opinion on what Mary should have or shouldn't have done. Those who know individuals who were around then might give a bit of the story here and there but more than likely don't know the full situation so we form our conclusions on a partial story. If anyone of us were in the same situation how would we respond?

Bravo!!!!!!!!!!