Andantes

[tomato tom]

Yes, I know its been discussed before, but I just got their book Motown From The Background as a Christmas present, and have just finished reading it.

I just want to say, if you have not got this book, GET IT NOW! Great, great read.
I know everything in it has been talked about, so will not say anything more, except, BUY IT. You will not be disappointed.....Paulo XXXX

[topdiva1]

I did not know they wrote a book - thanks Paulo

[tomato tom]

Check Amazon. Very reasonable price..Trust me, you will NOT be disappointed topdiva...Paulo XXX

[luke]

I had heard mixed things. Thx Paulo-maybe I will get it.

[jobeterob]

Mixed is fair; there wasn't anything much in it we did not expect and there was no trash talking; I believe Marlene Barrow says definitively [[in her opinion) that she replaced Florence Ballard on the recording of You Can't Hurry Love. But the book did not create any kind of buzz. I think the best for me was that it might have painted a little bit of a picture of Louvain which was nice.

[miss_lish]

I am utterly uninterested in this book, and I read all of the Motown books. Someone please convince me.

[heikki]

Hi!

http://www.soulexpress.net/deep108.htm#leverts

Best regards
Heikki

[jobeterob]

This is a review off Amazon and it reminded me of the book; I agreed with quite a bit of this review.


I bought the book in hopes of gaining more insight on the making of the great songs created in the Pit at Motown. And what better way to gain that information than by hearing it from people who were there -- the background singers! Though gossip, secrets, and revealing information that we haven't already read in the multitude of Motown books already published would have been worth the price of the book; the first 100 or so pages of this book kept reiterating, numerous times, that this book will not reveal any deep dark secrets of anybody. Each member of the group kept repeating the fact that the book was not written to hurt anyone and stressed the need to preserve the integrity of their former friends and fellow-singers; the importance of respecting the families of former and present stars, etc.

Then finally, towards the back of the book, Ms. Louvain Demps tells her story of her life after the Andantes were disgarded and forgotten when Motown moved to California. THIS section of the book was revealing, very deeply written, and really gives the reader additional information on the life of the Andantes post-Motown. Her perseverance and strong constitution to survive and provide for her family is astonishing. The Andantes also admonishes the necessity of gaining knowledge of the entertainment business. Her ability to forgive, if only to maintain her mental health, is beneficial to say the least.

The down part of this book are remarks from a lot of people nobody knows. If the writer could have secured more comments from known stars and other well-known singers who benefitted from the Andantes singing on their hit records, would have been better reading. Of course their best friends and family will bestow upon them kind sweet words. It would have been great to hear from the Supremes, Temptations [[Otis), and others who were there at the time.

And most of all it was also wonderful to hear that Ms. Demps is in the Ministry now and found the Lord and peace in her life. God Bless!

[miss_lish]

Thank you hekki and jobeterob; sadly, neither of these reviews have convinced Miss Lish this is something she needs to read. They should have dished! :O)

[roger]

Mixed is fair; there wasn't anything much in it we did not expect and there was no trash talking; I believe Marlene Barrow says definitively [[in her opinion) that she replaced Florence Ballard on the recording of You Can't Hurry Love. But the book did not create any kind of buzz. I think the best for me was that it might have painted a little bit of a picture of Louvain which was nice.

This is the instrumental version of "You Can't Hurry Love" with the background singing but no leads from DIANA ROSS ..

Who is singing with MARY WILSON? FLORENCE BALLARD or an ANDANTE?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqPS3kK8Xkk&feature=related

Roger

[captainjames]

"You Got to Give and Take" is Flo and Mary to my ears
the rest of the background vocals sound like Mary and Marlene
So in my opinion Flo is there but barely.

[topdiva1]

This is the instrumental version of "You Can't Hurry Love" with the background singing but no leads from DIANA ROSS ..

Who is singing with MARY WILSON? FLORENCE BALLARD or an ANDANTE?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqPS3kK8Xkk&feature=related

Roger


According to the Supremes muse at the time - Tony Turner - this version is not Flo Ballard - but Mary Wilson and Marlene Barrow, Flo reportedly did an overdub later.

[topdiva1]

"You Got to Give and Take" is Flo and Mary to my ears
the rest of the background vocals sound like Mary and Marlene
So in my opinion Flo is there but barely.

Tony Turner states that Flo Ballard missed the this session and was added or overdubed into the mix later at HDH request.

[tomato tom]

I truly understand your comments from you all, but I STILL believe this is one you HAVE to have in your Motown book shelf. Yes, we would all love a more detailed, and dare I say it, "spill the beans", write up. But, aint we lucky that this got published at all? I loved it all, and felt quite touched, that they are ladies, and would not dish the dirt, although it is hinted at throughout. I am very, very happy that THE ANDANTES name is now out there in the publishing world, and that means a LOT more people will learn that their incredible, and flawless vocal talent shines on. As for what MOTOWN did, or rather, did not do for them, when the left Detroit. Well......peace and love Paulo XXX

[jobeterob]

Thanks Roger.

I listened; I hear Mary; I don't hear much Flo there either.

As Andy once said, this was one of the few Supremes songs where they could not duplicate in concert ~ probably because the background singers were different.

Astonishing; no Flo. I barely believed it before but I think you are right.

[soulballad]

The book was seriously lacking in my opinon. The Andantes claimed to have sang on so many songs but the only song that they go into any minor detail was "My Guy" by Mary Wells. I have been told that most recordings that included the Andantes included the groups as well and in a lot of cases several other vocalists. They were great with the Four Tops. Also they didn't go into any of the inner workings of their group. I know it's old and they are now seniors and maybe they have forgiven but I'm also told they didn't really get along. Marlene and Jackie were the originals and they were really close and blended well. Lou was the outsider who was added later while they were at Motown and often she didn't blend well with the others and it caused a little conflict at times. None of this was touched on. They did'nt mention how they resisted the Motown makeover. They were not willing to change their image for success they ONLY wanted to sing so the company said forget them. Plus Gordy and co didn't see any lead singer potential in any of them, no stand out personalities or "IT" factors. Soon there were many other girls that could sing and also has the "look" Motown was going for at the time.

Regarding Florence on "YCHL" I'm also told that Mary and Marlene recorded a version but Flo was added because HDH knew that if a song came out that Flo knew she wasn't on there was going to be trouble and hell to pay. So Florence is on the recording. As it turns out they had her record it and you can only hear her on certain parts but they turned down the entire backgrounds to make sure the public was none the wiser. If I recall it was Tony Tuner who mentioned in his first book that when Flo heard the song on the radio she cried and said that her own mother couldn't pick her voice out in the background because it was turned down so low. No song was "duplicated" well live because usually the arrangement was different plus you don't have the luxury of remixing when you're live. When "YCHL" was done live Flo and Mary were much louder than on the recorded version.

Back to the Andantes. I feel they should have also gone into more detail about their voices and thier vocals for those who don't know them can pick out songs where they standout.

Marlene's voice was a very softish 2nd soprano to alto, very similar to Cindy Birdsongs, so her voice was a great voice to fill out a harmony without being overpowering. Take a listen to "TLC" by by P.J where Marlene does the intro.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXP9V-EBBeM

Lou's voice could soar and go very high but it had no bottom, alone it would have been piercing but her voice worked well as the top voice in a group harmony.

Jackie was was the alto/contralto that held it together with her sometimes deep and sometimes much softer coos. Her voice made their harmonies really work when it was just the three of them.

[miss_lish]

Thanks soulballad! That was a very enlightened post. I think I know all I need to know about the Andantes. You may have saved Miss Lish a few bucks! LOL!

[marv2]

Florence Ballard is on that song, "You Can't Hurry Love".

[soulballad]

Thanks soulballad! That was a very enlightened post. I think I know all I need to know about the Andantes. You may have saved Miss Lish a few bucks! LOL!

I gave more detail than the book did! LOL!

[soulballad]

Florence Ballard is on that song, "You Can't Hurry Love".

Yes she is!

HDH had a lot sensitivity and maturity when it came to dealing with all of the girls/young ladies that they worked with especially with the Supremes.

[smark21]

Thanks Roger.

I listened; I hear Mary; I don't hear much Flo there either.

As Andy once said, this was one of the few Supremes songs where they could not duplicate in concert ~ probably because the background singers were different.

Astonishing; no Flo. I barely believed it before but I think you are right.

Another reason is that the funk brothers that played on the record never backed The Supremes, Diana, Mary, FLOS, whomever, in their live renditions. I've heard both Diana Ross and Mary Wilson perform the song live and the song just drags, their bands [[even though they have some good players) just don't pop like the Funks did on the record.

[smark21]

The book was seriously lacking in my opinon. The Andantes claimed to have sang on so many songs but the only song that they go into any minor detail was "My Guy" by Mary Wells. I have been told that most recordings that included the Andantes included the groups as well and in a lot of cases several other vocalists. They were great with the Four Tops. Also they didn't go into any of the inner workings of their group. I know it's old and they are now seniors and maybe they have forgiven but I'm also told they didn't really get along. Marlene and Jackie were the originals and they were really close and blended well. Lou was the outsider who was added later while they were at Motown and often she didn't blend well with the others and it caused a little conflict at times. None of this was touched on. They did'nt mention how they resisted the Motown makeover. They were not willing to change their image for success they ONLY wanted to sing so the company said forget them. Plus Gordy and co didn't see any lead singer potential in any of them, no stand out personalities or "IT" factors. Soon there were many other girls that could sing and also has the "look" Motown was going for at the time.

Regarding Florence on "YCHL" I'm also told that Mary and Marlene recorded a version but Flo was added because HDH knew that if a song came out that Flo knew she wasn't on there was going to be trouble and hell to pay. So Florence is on the recording. As it turns out they had her record it and you can only hear her on certain parts but they turned down the entire backgrounds to make sure the public was none the wiser. If I recall it was Tony Tuner who mentioned in his first book that when Flo heard the song on the radio she cried and said that her own mother couldn't pick her voice out in the background because it was turned down so low. No song was "duplicated" well live because usually the arrangement was different plus you don't have the luxury of remixing when you're live. When "YCHL" was done live Flo and Mary were much louder than on the recorded version.

Back to the Andantes. I feel they should have also gone into more detail about their voices and thier vocals for those who don't know them can pick out songs where they standout.

Marlene's voice was a very softish 2nd soprano to alto, very similar to Cindy Birdsongs, so her voice was a great voice to fill out a harmony without being overpowering. Take a listen to "TLC" by by P.J where Marlene does the intro.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXP9V-EBBeM

Lou's voice could soar and go very high but it had no bottom, alone it would have been piercing but her voice worked well as the top voice in a group harmony.

Jackie was was the alto/contralto that held it together with her sometimes deep and sometimes much softer coos. Her voice made their harmonies really work when it was just the three of them.

Does the book discuss their work with Ann Bogan on "Like a Nightmare" or later backing Ann on her two Marvelettes leads?

[captainjames]

Florence Ballard is on that song, "You Can't Hurry Love".

Yes she is and so is the Andantes

[stephanie]

Florence Ballard was a smart woman, she fought to have her and Mary only on The Happening.

I have to say that when you hear Flo and Diana and Mary doing YCHL acapella on the Supremes in The Orient it was wise that they overdub Flo she did a great job. I do wish the backgrounds had been louder even if there was an Andante. I was wondering if there were any pics of Marlene subbing for Flo on stage.

[johnjeb]

I was very disappointed in this book. The information of any value would have worked well in a lengthy magazine article. The author should have taken the memories of each of the ladies and woven it into a compelling story. Instead it seemed like a transcription of what each of the women recalled.

For those that need it all, like me, then you should get this book.

I lent the book to a friend who is a rabid Motown fan, particularly of girl groups, and a voracious reader of entertainment biographies. He was looking forward to this book. He stopped reading halfway through and returned it to me.

[marv2]

Florence Ballard was a smart woman, she fought to have her and Mary only on The Happening.

I have to say that when you hear Flo and Diana and Mary doing YCHL acapella on the Supremes in The Orient it was wise that they overdub Flo she did a great job. I do wish the backgrounds had been louder even if there was an Andante. I was wondering if there were any pics of Marlene subbing for Flo on stage.


I would bet money that there are not! I don't have the book but maybe someone that does can tell us if there are any pics of Marlene on stage with the Supremes in it?

[jobeterob]

I read these comments about the book and sadly, I agree with most of them. I was looking for so much more as well; JohnJeb summarizes it well.

The book is a must have for all Motown fans but there just isn't much to it. There are quite a few pictures but they are mostly family photos and photos with almost every Motown artist but not the big stars ~ no Stevie, no Marvin, no Diana; but everyone else, many recent.

The real rub for people that don't like some of what is here is that that Marlene Barrow was there; Jackie and Louvaine were there; there evidence is acceptable in Court; those of us that "think" and "hope" and "wish" and "pray"........well, it's all good but not of much value.

This is from the book: "Marlene was respectful and modest about the times when she filled in for Florence Ballard onstage. Prior to the experience, she was singing in sessions with Mary Wilson. There are a block of Supremes songs that are just Mary and Marlene backing up Diana Ross. Marlene recalls, "Holland Dozier Holland took me aside quietly and asked me to come into the stuidio and sing, so I did. That is me and Mary on You Can't Hurry Love. There are a few others on which I sing. It was Harvey Fuqua who approached me and asked me to fill in for Florence onstage. I informed Louvain and Jackie so that they heard from me what I was going to do. I never felt it was going to interfere with The Andantes because I knew it was a temporary situation. For a brief period, while they were negotiating to get Cindy Birdsong, I stepped in and sang with the Supremes. I didn't see Florence during this time and it was kept very quiet that Cindy was in Detroit. I wasn't told any of the details. Cindy was singing with Patti Labelle and the Blue Belles. I filled in on the engagements that the Supremes had booked until Cindy was free from her contract with the Blue Belles.

She goes on about this for a few pages; says she got on well with Mary and Diana, that she wasn't going to leave the Andantes and she knew it was just fill in til Cindy showed up; that she was close with Mary. She says Mary helped her with all the routines and dance steps and she knew all the music from all their background sessions, so she had that covered already.

[soulballad]

jobeterob thanks for excerpt. This is another example of why the book was awful imo. Marlene was extremely vague about the situation.

Here's the time frame.

Marlene did one set of shows with the group in late February in New Orleans and then filled in for Flo for a few very small engagements during late March of 1967. In April Berry had the "big" meeting with the group and basically fired Florence, next Cindy filled in at the Hollywood Bowl on April 20th [[I think). The engagements that Marlene filled in for Flo were so small that there were no pictures or media coverage. Flo was back for the big shows like the Copa etc because they were big draws and there would be lots of coverage and pictures. I think maybe to Marlene this was a big deal because even a small Supreme engagement was bigger than anything the Andates had done. Marlene and Flo look nothing alike so the teenagers would have talked and the dirt would have been out. It was not as big a deal of it's being made out to be. As for recording a "block" of songs with Mary, I'm sure she probably did but it was probably for producers other than HDH. After the "Reflections, The Happening and "In And Out Of Love" sessions with Florence, there has been hardly any Supremes recordings released from April through September of 1967. "It's Going All The Way To True Love" with Flo did surface later on Never Before Released Masters and that was recorded in May-June 67. Perhaps Marlene recorded some things with Mary during this time as she does sound very similar to Cindy Birdsong. I think Cindy's first sessions were in September of 1967 where they recorded "Stay In My Lonely Arms", "Heaven Must Have Sent You" and some of the Disney Classics.

If I had interviewed Marlene I would have asked her to be much more specific. Show me some pictures of you on stage. Let's look at all of the Supremes albums and you tell me which songs that are just you and Mary etc. In the big scheme of things all of this is not worth anything now anyway but if you're going to put it out there you better come correct!

[marv2]

jobeterob thanks for excerpt. This is another example of why the book was awful imo. Marlene was extremely vague about the situation.

Here's the time frame.

Marlene did one set of shows with the group in late February in New Orleans and then filled in for Flo for a few very small engagements during late March of 1967. In April Berry had the "big" meeting with the group and basically fired Florence, next Cindy filled in at the Hollywood Bowl on April 20th [[I think). The engagements that Marlene filled in for Flo were so small that there were no pictures or media coverage. Flo was back for the big shows like the Copa etc because they were big draws and there would be lots of coverage and pictures. I think maybe to Marlene this was a big deal because even a small Supreme engagement was bigger than anything the Andates had done. Marlene and Flo look nothing alike so the teenagers would have talked and the dirt would have been out. It was not as big a deal of it's being made out to be. As for recording a "block" of songs with Mary, I'm sure she probably did but it was probably for producers other than HDH. After the "Reflections, The Happening and "In And Out Of Love" sessions with Florence, there has been hardly any Supremes recordings released from April through September of 1967. "It's Going All The Way To True Love" with Flo did surface later on Never Before Released Masters and that was recorded in May-June 67. Perhaps Marlene recorded some things with Mary during this time as she does sound very similar to Cindy Birdsong. I think Cindy's first sessions were in September of 1967 where they recorded "Stay In My Lonely Arms", "Heaven Must Have Sent You" and some of the Disney Classics.

If I had interviewed Marlene I would have asked her to be much more specific. Show me some pictures of you on stage. Let's look at all of the Supremes albums and you tell me which songs that are just you and Mary etc. In the big scheme of things all of this is not worth anything now anyway but if you're going to put it out there you better come correct!

Get down Soulballad!!!!! hehehehehehehe.........

[marv2]

Florence Ballard subbed for one of the Marvelettes back around 1962 and we have at least seen pictures of her onstage with the group at the Apollo.

[marv2]

Florence with the Marvelettes:

[skooldem1]

The real problem with the Andantes is that for years some fans, in trying to convince others of the importance of the background vocals over the actual lead vocals by Diana Ross, took much pride in the fact that Mary, Florence, and Cindy's background vocals were the key to the success of the multiple number one records with Diana Ross on lead. They fight hard to let people know that it wasn't "all about Diane and that America fell in love with 3 ladies". The truth of the matter is that it was indeed Diana Ross's unique vocals that set the group apart on record. It was a devestating revelation for fans of the background. Its like they always say... be careful of what you wish for. Now all they can offer up is the argument that..."well they performed those songs live, and performed them on TV, so it doesn't matter who is singing the background parts". Life is so funny sometimes.

[marv2]

The quality of the overall sound, the way it made me feel was the thing important to me which would include the background vocals. Mary and Florence were singers, professionals. They were on all the important records. Just listen to
this and tell me it would have been the same without them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLjrKKqMS1s

[soulballad]

The real problem with the Andantes is that for years some fans, in trying to convince others of the importance of the background vocals over the actual lead vocals by Diana Ross, took much pride in the fact that Mary, Florence, and Cindy's background vocals were the key to the success of the multiple number one records with Diana Ross on lead. They fight hard to let people know that it wasn't "all about Diane and that America fell in love with 3 ladies". The truth of the matter is that it was indeed Diana Ross's unique vocals that set the group apart on record. It was a devestating revelation for fans of the background. Its like they always say... be careful of what you wish for. Now all they can offer up is the argument that..."well they performed those songs live, and performed them on TV, so it doesn't matter who is singing the background parts". Life is so funny sometimes.

Life is funny because Diana Ross didn't do those tv apperances and live shows alone, she had Florence and Mary and Cindy right there with here, and even if they never sang a note on a recording it is still their images that sold the records and it is their images that will remain with the public whenever we hear Supremes and Motown!

[soulballad]

....and they get defensive.

.....and most importantly they offend others when they speak the truth!!!!!

[skooldem1]

I deleted my previous response in the spirit of the Holidays. Its all good. But I see you just couldn't help yourself. I don't see why it upsets some so much. Mary and Florence didn't sing on all the hits. Truth. End of Story. No big deal.

[soulballad]

I deleted my response in the spirit of the Holidays. Its all good. But I see you just couldn't help yourself. I don't see why it upsets some so much. Mary and Florence didn't sing on all the hits. Truth. End of Story. No big deal.

I see you had a mature moment. Happy Holidays to you too skoodem!

[smark21]

While the use of The Andantes on some of the Supremes hits may not have mattered [[or been known) at the time of release, do you think the revelation that they were on the songs in place of Flo, Cindy and Mary, has played a role in tarnishing the long term historical reputation and the integrity of The Supremes, as well as Diana Ross, and perhaps even Motown?

[miss_lish]

While the use of The Andantes on some of the Supremes hits may not have mattered [[or been known) at the time of release, do you think the revelation that they were on the songs in place of Flo, Cindy and Mary, has played a role in tarnishing the long term historical reputation and the integrity of The Supremes, as well as Diana Ross, and perhaps even Motown?



Nope. Nada.

[topdiva1]

Life is funny because Diana Ross didn't do those tv apperances and live shows alone, she had Florence and Mary and Cindy right there with here, and even if they never sang a note on a recording it is still their images that sold the records and it is their images that will remain with the public whenever we hear Supremes and Motown!


Amen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Penny]

I don't believe any of it.

[roger]

While the use of The Andantes on some of the Supremes hits may not have mattered [[or been known) at the time of release, do you think the revelation that they were on the songs in place of Flo, Cindy and Mary, has played a role in tarnishing the long term historical reputation and the integrity of The Supremes, as well as Diana Ross, and perhaps even Motown?

Well, whenever I listen to records by THE FOUR TOPS from 1966/7 .. "Reach out", "Bernadette" etc. I can hear female voices doing part of the background vocals .. no doubt they are THE ANDANTES .. and its never made me think less of THE FOUR TOPS.

Roger

[miss_lish]

Life is funny because Diana Ross didn't do those tv apperances and live shows alone, she had Florence and Mary and Cindy right there with here, and even if they never sang a note on a recording it is still their images that sold the records and it is their images that will remain with the public whenever we hear Supremes and Motown!




Well, she is doing them alone now baby!

[marv2]

Well, she is doing them alone now baby!

True and no where near the number of people that grew up listening and buying Supremes music care or are interested in diana doing them alone now........

[miss_lish]

Yes, of course, Marv2, but which stars from her era are enjoying the same type of success during their heyday? Which singer from her era are still popular the youth? Pop music culture is mostly for the young. We should strive to maintain realistic expectations.

[captainjames]

Yes, of course, Marv2, but which stars from her era are enjoying the same type of success during their heyday? Which singer from her era are still popular the youth? Pop music culture is mostly for the young. We should strive to maintain realistic expectations.

WORD !!!! So True !!!

[marv2]

Yes, of course, Marv2, but which stars from her era are enjoying the same type of success during their heyday? Which singer from her era are still popular the youth? Pop music culture is mostly for the young. We should strive to maintain realistic expectations.

Your "point" is moot! She could sing those old songs to herself in the bathtub and no one would care......LOL! Now if we were talking about a group reunion and she sang those same songs, folks might sit up and take notice more.

[marv2]

Well, whenever I listen to records by THE FOUR TOPS from 1966/7 .. "Reach out", "Bernadette" etc. I can hear female voices doing part of the background vocals .. no doubt they are THE ANDANTES .. and its never made me think less of THE FOUR TOPS.

Roger


There you go Roger! That is because those were and will always be "FOUR TOPS" records! The Andantes [[God Love 'em), were use for no more than instrumental purposes to achieve a sound for a particular song.

[bankhousedave]

...which is exactly and identically all they did so wonderfullly on all the records they appeared on, Marv. Only difference is that it is somwhat more difficult to discern their voices from other female singers than male. It too a lot of peopl a long time to notice they were behind the Tops. Me included. They were behind most everyone else too. They didhn't do it to upset anyone. They did it because it was their job - and they were the best at it. They have nothing much to gain by telling the truth, anyway.

[topdiva1]

The truth is they where great at what they did - the best in the business.

Stay on Topic please.

[miss_lish]

Your "point" is moot! She could sing those old songs to herself in the bathtub and no one would care......LOL! Now if we were talking about a group reunion and she sang those same songs, folks might sit up and take notice more.



Yes of course you're right my darling; now you were saying, which of her contemporaries are enjoying the same success as they did during their heydey? No rush; we'll wait..

[marv2]

Yes of course you're right my darling; now you were saying, which of her contemporaries are enjoying the same success as they did during their heydey? No rush; we'll wait..

Diana Ross is not experiencing the same success she did in her heydey which was well into the last century!

[miss_lish]

Diana Ross is not experiencing the same success she did in her heydey which was well into the last century!




Yes of course you're right my darling; now you were saying, which of her contemporaries are enjoying the same success as they did during their heydey? No rush; we'll wait..

[jobeterob]

The Andantes [[God Love 'em), were use for no more than instrumental purposes to achieve a sound for a particular song.

The telling point in your line here Marv is that if this is true for the Andantes, it is also true for the background Supremes - lord, you are saying Mary Wilson was there for "no more than instrumental" purposes; this must have been a seminal slip on your part!

I'm have a Piers Morgan type of shock here...........in 5 years of this fourm, I have never had such an admission.

[marv2]

The Andantes [[God Love 'em), were use for no more than instrumental purposes to achieve a sound for a particular song.

The telling point in your line here Marv is that if this is true for the Andantes, it is also true for the background Supremes - lord, you are saying Mary Wilson was there for "no more than instrumental" purposes; this must have been a seminal slip on your part!

I'm have a Piers Morgan type of shock here...........in 5 years of this fourm, I have never had such an admission.

You evidently do not have EYES! Mary Wilson was hardly there just for instrumental purposes. Aside from her beautiful voice......she was the VISUAL attraction, the eye-candy for the guys when it came to TV , personal and photographic appearances!!! She did more than help to bring the songs to life with Cholly Atkins choreography. She was the glue that held the act together. The heart and soul of the Supremes as Berry Gordy put it.

[marv2]

Yes, of course, Marv2, but which stars from her era are enjoying the same type of success during their heyday? Which singer from her era are still popular the youth? Pop music culture is mostly for the young. We should strive to maintain realistic expectations.

It is a New Year. You'd better learn to read for comprehension! This is my post that you responded to.....

True and no where near the number of people that grew up listening and buying Supremes music care or are interested in diana doing them alone now........

Your irrational response is as follows:

"Yes, of course, Marv2, but which stars from her era are enjoying the same type of success during their heyday? Which singer from her era are still popular the youth? Pop music culture is mostly for the young. We should strive to maintain realistic expectations."

Now show me anywhere where I am talking about stars from her era enjoying the same type of success during their heyday? Show me where I refer to still popular with the youth? Duh you can't! You so routinely make stuff up that I have supposedly said that you show a severe inability to read and comprehend English.

Now, I stand by what I said [[whether you understand it or not), there are no where near the number of people that grew up listening to and buying Supremes music that care or are interested in Diane doing them alone now. I await your patent Mary Wilson bashing response!


Happy New Year.

[luke]

Thanks soulballad-great info; Im wondering though what "small" gigs the Supremes did in 1967--they were at their peak--corporate stuff?

[nabob]

Well, whenever I listen to records by THE FOUR TOPS from 1966/7 .. "Reach out", "Bernadette" etc. I can hear female voices doing part of the background vocals .. no doubt they are THE ANDANTES .. and its never made me think less of THE FOUR TOPS.
Billboard had a picture in the heyday showing the Four Tops presenting the Andantes with gifts following a British tour. The caption stated that the Andantes added vocal harmony on the songs. Later reading that they sang background on the Four Tops records was not a surprise. The surprise was learning in the 90s that the Four Tops were singing background on My Baby Loves Me for Martha [Reeves] & the Vandellas.

[topdiva1]

Just let it rest - and enjoy the music.

[smark21]

Well, whenever I listen to records by THE FOUR TOPS from 1966/7 .. "Reach out", "Bernadette" etc. I can hear female voices doing part of the background vocals .. no doubt they are THE ANDANTES .. and its never made me think less of THE FOUR TOPS.

Roger

Yes, but the Andantes were not being used in place of the other Tops, they were additional voices on those records. On the other hand, they were used in place of The Supremes, the Vandellas, and the Marveletes [[and perhaps the Velvelettes as well?). One can take the view that it compromises the integrity of the group--their talent and their recordings.

[smark21]

Yes of course you're right my darling; now you were saying, which of her contemporaries are enjoying the same success as they did during their heydey? No rush; we'll wait..

Perhaps Streisand as she was more of an album artist in the 60's, rarely having a hit single. And Paul McCartney can still fill an arena when he goes on tour. But yeah, for an oldies artist, Ross does very well--she certainly doesn't need to do the county fairs though it should be noted she can't get a prestigious theme park booking either.

[miss_lish]

It is a New Year. You'd better learn to read for comprehension! This is my post that you responded to.....

True and no where near the number of people that grew up listening and buying Supremes music care or are interested in diana doing them alone now........


Your irrational response is as follows:

"Yes, of course, Marv2, but which stars from her era are enjoying the same type of success during their heyday? Which singer from her era are still popular the youth? Pop music culture is mostly for the young. We should strive to maintain realistic expectations."

Now show me anywhere where I am talking about stars from her era enjoying the same type of success during their heyday? Show me where I refer to still popular with the youth? Duh you can't! You so routinely make stuff up that I have supposedly said that you show a severe inability to read and comprehend English.

Now, I stand by what I said [[whether you understand it or not), there are no where near the number of people that grew up listening to and buying Supremes music that care or are interested in Diane doing them alone now. I await your patent Mary Wilson bashing response!


Happy New Year.




Again, you are so right Marv2. After spending all these years on-line with you, one would think Miss Lish would no better to engage you in a debate. Your wit, intelligence, and grace consistently expose me to be the ignorant, tactless, lieing, and irrational boor that I am.

Now then, which star from Miss Ross's heydey is enjoying the same impact today as they did then? You've discussed everything else, but you've never answered Miss Lish's simple question. Care to comment my darling?

@ Smark, sorry dear, not even Babs is finding the same success she found in her youth. They are both legends; they have both made their marks.

[captainjames]

Miss Lish,
I have to agree with you, -----No one and absolutely no one from back in the day does it like Diana. I find it remarkable that she can still entertain me after all these years and the many times I have seen here. Its 2011 and I am glad Diana and Mary are still with us. I wish them the best of health and bring on the new year.

[marv2]

[QUOTE=miss_lish;26172]Again, you are so right Marv2. After spending all these years on-line with you, one would think Miss Lish would no better to engage you in a debate. Your wit, intelligence, and grace consistently expose me to be the ignorant, tactless, lieing, and irrational boor that I am.

You got that right!

[jobeterob]

Missed all of this.

Soul Ballad.......you've probably hit the nail on the head about both the Tammi Terrell book and the Andantes book. Both of them suffered from the same vagueness. There was almost a pervasive fear in them that if you asked more pointed questions about Mary Wilson, Valerie Simpson, or Tammi Terrell you might provoke a fan controversy and some real fear that Valerie did sing for Tammi or that Mary actually coached Marlene and Cindy behind Flo's back; and additionally, if you got a real on issue answer, there would be some penalty levied or some annoyed relatives or artists. Hence, the comments on here about the book being poor.

And of course, Skool Dem is right about the backgrounds. When I first found out that Mary and Cindy weren't on Love Child, I didn't believe it. When I read that the Merry Christmas album had no Supremes on it, I didn't want to believe it. I remember Andy saying "don't ask questions about this because you might not like the answers" and that the group effectively ended in 1967 and then Diana was on her own.

In the end, it doesn't matter much except to fanatical fans. No one totally knows anymore who is behind Diana. Andantes got dubbed over Supremes and vice versa. It's all good. And an image was made to go with Diana's sound and the image was Diana with Flo, Mary and Cindy behind her.

[bradsupremes]

Regarding "You Can't Hurry Love" and who is on the background vocals, listen to "Misery Makes Its Home In My Heart." Background vocals for both tracks were recorded the same day - July 5, 1966. I don't hear Florence on either song.

[soulballad]

Thanks soulballad-great info; Im wondering though what "small" gigs the Supremes did in 1967--they were at their peak--corporate stuff?

The Supremes still did small gigs throughout the 60's and beyond. They may not have toured the "chitlin circuit" but hey still were paying dues. Thinking otherwise is all a part of that fantasy, perfect image that was created. We have to look at their situation with the worlds eyes of the 60's, things were still a little more realistic then when it came to celebrity though things were begiining to change in the late 60's. This was 1967 and these were three black women from a black owned label, they still had to constantly work hard and it wasn't always at the Copa or Coconut Grove.

[soulballad]

Missed all of this.

Soul Ballad.......you've probably hit the nail on the head about both the Tammi Terrell book and the Andantes book. Both of them suffered from the same vagueness. There was almost a pervasive fear in them that if you asked more pointed questions about Mary Wilson, Valerie Simpson, or Tammi Terrell you might provoke a fan controversy and some real fear that Valerie did sing for Tammi or that Mary actually coached Marlene and Cindy behind Flo's back; and additionally, if you got a real on issue answer, there would be some penalty levied or some annoyed relatives or artists. Hence, the comments on here about the book being poor.

And of course, Skool Dem is right about the backgrounds. When I first found out that Mary and Cindy weren't on Love Child, I didn't believe it. When I read that the Merry Christmas album had no Supremes on it, I didn't want to believe it. I remember Andy saying "don't ask questions about this because you might not like the answers" and that the group effectively ended in 1967 and then Diana was on her own.

In the end, it doesn't matter much except to fanatical fans. No one totally knows anymore who is behind Diana. Andantes got dubbed over Supremes and vice versa. It's all good. And an image was made to go with Diana's sound and the image was Diana with Flo, Mary and Cindy behind her.

Thanks again jobeterob,

The issue for me is the the pettiness and immaturity that a lot of the fanatics display on these boards without any real substance. One example is the need to keep pointing out that Florence didn't record the first version of "You Cant Hurry Love" completely over looking the fact that this was ONE song in thousands. How about the songs were she and Mary DID sing on. It's like taking something small and making it a bigger deal just to stir up s--t and bad feelings, and this craziness is not really aimed at the Supreme it aimed to cut down the fan of that Supreme and to prove how insignificant Flo and Mary and Cindy were because they were way behind Diana Ross. The truth is the fans bought those songs because they were fans of Diana, Florence and Mary, the trio that broke into the hearts of all America with their high media exposure. Diana Ross didn't do this alone, they were there with her. Internally the group might not have existed after 1967 but Berry and Motown made sure the public thought they did, otherwise the records would have read DIANA ROSS and she would have been on stage and on TV alone. Now think for a minute if it really didn't matter who was on the songs or who stood with Diana on stage and on the shows , don't you think she would have been introduced as a solo artist long before 1970. I'm not anti Diana Ross or anti any Supreme but a lot of what's being said is not in perspective and is coming from either a glossy eyed fanatic or a person that is just trying to stir up s--t!

[captainjames]

The only thing I will add to the above comments is that when it became Diana Ross and ........... I asked myself as a fan is Diana Ross still a Supreme ? I even asked myself the same thing about Gladys Knight [[was she a PIP ?). That being said is what as a fan I saw about the group. I will also have to add that it was probably 1966 that it became more of two attractions on stage not 1967. It was all good for me because I loved them all.

Now, I am going to have to start another Thread because I am dying to know who is singing behind Bobby Taylor or was it the Andantes ?

[1382hitsville]

I love the book. Yes, also somehow disappointed because of the lack of gossip and so on. But, as in "Secrets Of A Sparrow", it's not about the gossip and events that happened 40 years ago.

The thing I got out of the book was a lesson in letting go, forgiveness and survival. It helped me through some difficult times.

Yes, I wrote something that ended up in the book [[fan from the Netherlands) and since then Vicky and I are in contact. Lovely spirit and beatiful woman, as all the Andantes.

[topdiva1]

When fans get the truth - or - the story they do not want they lose it.

So The Andantes played it safe, can you blame them. We tend to drag writers through the mud who go outside the fairy tale story box.

Likely they followed the advice that Tony Turner did not take - "...when the legend conflicts with the truth, print the legend".

[miss_lish]

This is SupremesNation my darling; to quote Tony Turner: "It's a must!"

[smark21]

How can anyone say the group didn't exist after 1967? They were still giving live performances as a group. Money was still being split three ways. Sure they may have been recording the leads and backgrounds at separate times and The Andantes were used as subs for many studio recordings, but not all studio recordings. Sure Diana was being spotlighted and pushed out front, but there are many performances in which Mary and Cindy did more than just serve as decorations. Listen to some of the songs on Farewell or watch the Fats Waller or Irving Berlin medleys from Ed Sullivan. Those are group efforts, not a soloist.

[captainjames]

Well, I am glad The Andantes got a chance to tell their story....kind of like unsung heroes and they were part of "The Sound Of Young America", "The Motown Sound" along with the Funk Brothers and HDH. This will never happen again in my lifetime. At least not as long as Star Search is on TV.

[tomato tom]

Heh Heh......so glad I got you all talking about this. Yes, I agree with most of your comments, but as topdiva1 says..they were the best, and aint we better for it. So glad I got this as a Christmas present, and yes, It could, SHOULD, have said a lot more, and gone into more detail,BUT, it is what it is, and it is a GREAT addition to my Motown library...Peace and Love...Paulo XXX

[tomato tom]

I got this as a Christmas present, and am so pleased to add it to my Motown book library. I agree with all the comments above, but lets put things in perspective. The Andantes, like the Funk Brothers, are THE MOTOWN SOUND. Yes, I would have loved more details. but, this book is what it is, a History, without the crap, gossip, nastiness written in other Motown bios, as much as we might or wish it might be. It was also nice to read that they LOVED working with Wanda Young Rogers of THE MARVELETTES, when so much negative things have been written about her since her illness. Anyway, glad I got people talking..Peace and love..Paulo xxxxxxx

[luke]

Souilballad=just asking a question-where? Didnt say they didnt. They had been voted number one group in world ahead of Beatles by Playboy magazine. Just curious. I remember reading that they sometimes tried out a new show in a small place.

[tomato tom]

Thank you, topdiva1....they were the best. Listening to THE MARVELETTES When Your Young & In Love now......says it all..Paulo XXXX

[topdiva1]

This is SupremesNation my darling; to quote Tony Turner: "It's a must!"


Indeed it is - "...it's a must" - you are so right. I am hopeful that this year will bring us new Supreme things to chat about.

[topdiva1]

Thank you, topdiva1....they were the best. Listening to THE MARVELETTES When Your Young & In Love now......says it all..Paulo XXXX


Yes Paulo - When your Young and In Love - that truly says it all. Vocally and spiritually.