Supremes-Beyond Myself

[Glenpwood]

Was listening to the Jimmy Webb section of the TITS box last night and wondered how Motown allowed "Beyond Myself" to make the final cut. The whole song seems to be cut in too high a key, making Jean strain and not in a good way on her vocal runs in the higher parts of the song and half the words are intelligible, particularly on the background vocals, [[e.g. "There is a peace that blah blah meow meow...") which get almost operatic at moments. My other objection is that the next song in sequence "Silent Voices" has a very similar arrangement and while less objectionable to my ears makes the two sound like one long song.... your thoughts?

[jobeterob]

That generally encapsulates what has been said about those two songs and that side of the album from the date of it's release. I'm pretty sure if you go find the Rolling Stone review of that album, it questions the shrillness of that side of the album. It's odd how I Guess I'll Miss the Man doesn't fit. It was odd that they ignored issuing 5:30 Plane as a single and it might have been the only single quality cut on the album.

I wonder if by this time Motown wasn't privy to the personal problems the Supremes were having and had seen the declining sales of the albums and just didn't know what else to do for them. I know Mary Wilson recently said that the albums just didnt sell very well, even Right On. And I'm pretty sure Right On did markedly better than the albums that followed ~ it certainly charted better.

But your thoughts on the cuts are definitely the consensus on them.

[carlo]

There's always been differing opinions amongst the fans in regards to the Jimmy Webb album. I have always loved it and it remains to be one of my very favourites. I think the album is one of their best pieces of work. I agree though that Beyond Myself and Silent Voices sound very similar.

[bradsupremes]

Jimmy Webb has always been a favorite songwriter of mine and I think it's a shame that he hasn't been inducted into the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame as a non-performer. However, I found the Supremes album that he did with them to be a true dud. The only good song on that album was "When Can Brown Begin," which had single potential. The rest of the album I could care less for. I barely listen to it. To me, the Supremes with Jimmy Webb is a perfect marriage between songwriter/producer and artist but the results are disappointing. I think had Jimmy done an album with the Supremes earlier, maybe when Diana was still with the group or when Jean first joined, the results would have been far more pleasing.

[blkfrost]

The music on this album is typical of many albums from around 1972... acoustic pop rock. When I originally bought this in 1972 I was disappointed because I enjoyed "Floy Joy" so much [[both release in 1972). Yes, Jean Terrell does sound shrill... key way too high for her range. I have always loved The Supremes version of "I Guess I'll Miss The Man". Deke Richards really brought out a nice mellow sound. The Jimmy Webb songs I liked were "5:30 Plane", "When Can Brown Begin", "Paradise", and "I Keep It Hid". If sung in a lower key, I am sure the album would have been better.

[Glenpwood]

I do enjoy the Webb album for the most part and play it more often than Touch or New Ways actually. [[Right On and Floy Joy get the most play) Tossin & Turnin was a very questionable cover choice but I can tolerate it as some levity to more serious singer songwriting aspect of the LP. A cynical person would say Webb or Motown thought Carole King's Tapestry is so big right now, lets graft some of that image onto the girls and see what happens, hence the serious cover and lack of glamour shots in gowns. Obviously, it didnt take and also keep in mind during this time you've got a band divided over changing their sound/image and trying to leave Motown to head over to ABC. I'm sure Motown wasn't gonna break it back to promote an artist they might not have much longer or they saw as imploding on it own. They should've gone back to Smokey since the Floy Joy era had produced the most chart hits since Right On but I'm still glad to have the Webb record as an interesting detour in the girls career....

[Glenpwood]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oioWs18Dlw

[marybrewster]

I could be wrong; I was a mere child in 1973. But after listening to the "Jimmy Webb" album, I've decided that it was too much of a "message album". Now while the Supremes did have success with songs like "Love Child" and "Stoned Love", a whole album, IMO, is not what the fans wanted at that time. People associate the Supremes with big wigs, sequins; glitz and glamour. I don't think the masses were ready to hear something so "heavy" from start to finish.

Even the cover of the album was a little 'off'. Look at all the album covers before and after "Jimmy"; a dandelion versus the beautiful faces that made up the Supremes was certainly was a different direction for the group.

I'm curious to know: was this, a 'deep' album, the kind of music Jean, Mary and Lynda wanted to record? There really wasn't much to "groove" to, and I've always found their performances of "IGIMTM" boring and bland.

[Glenpwood]

and now to compare both....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Yo0a5Hxqq0

[smark21]

Jean is very screechy on Beyond Myself. The song should have been re-arranged. I like Silent Voices--it's a haunting song, though the backgrounds would have worked better if they had been more subtle and turned down rather than loud and choral. I Guess I'll Miss the Man, 5:30 Plane, All I Want and I keep it Hid are the best songs on the album. I do like JML's performance of I Guess I'll Miss the Man on Soul Train--beautifully performed with a strong vocal arrangement.

[daviddh]

never cared too much for this album.kinda blah ,.....but as many have said ,i liked WHEN CAN BROWN BEGIN and thought it should have been a single. SILENT VOICES ,KEEP IT HID are good. didnt care for the covers of TOSSIN/TURNIN... or .ALL I WANT.
RIGHT ON was the best selling 70s lp followed by FLOY JOY.

[pj1]

In 'This Is the Story Volume 1', Jimmy Webb revealed that during the recording of this album, Jean came in one day with a note from her doctor asking that she "be excused from singing anything above a high c for the next few days". Jimmy thought it was a kind of a joke- almost.
I wonder, were the 'shrill' songs recorded during any of those next few days? Perhaps Jean, in preparing to record the songs, had realized that they were cut in a key unsuitable for her vocal range. The note may have been a polite way of alerting Jimmy without offending him as arranger and producer. Perhaps, he didn't get the hint.
Or , he may have gotten the hint and decided to push Jean to reach for the top anyway, for he also states " I really put her [[Jeannie- as he calls her) through the hoops. I gave her some things to do that were almost impossible. And she always came through."

[marxthespot]

The Jimmy Webb album is great. At the time, I could not get into it as it was such a departure from "Floy Joy." I think it has - for the most part - worn well over the years. "Paradise", "I Keep it Hid", "Beyond Myself", "5:30 Plane", even "Cheap Lovin." The one real disappoint for me was "Once in the Morning." I still find that song irritating.

My other beef with the album is that the final mixes are so dry and a bit harsh. In the case of "Beyond Myself", Jean's voice is so upfront in the mix, that it doesn't blend in with the rest of the track.

[captainjames]

Again, I think The Supremes and Motown were seeking a "new sound" for the girls and in my opinion they should have went ahead and released "I Keep It Hid". "When Can Brown Begn" was a good song but not for a single. I would have loved to hear Diana tackle some of these songs especially "Once in The Morning.' Jimmy Webb just cpouldn't make this work for them.

[jobeterob]

Don't you think 530 Plane was the obvious single? I think Rolling Stone pegged 530 Plane as the single that should have been released. I think they also thought a lot of Tossin and Turnin and All I Want. I thought one of the best songs on this album and one of the 70's Supremes best songs was When Can Brown Begin but I dont think either it or I Keep It Hid would have been a hit. Those were the type of songs that were hits for some other people, notably Roberta Flack and some singer/songwriters. But that was not the Supremes image at all and is probably why this album failed and why Touch failed. It seems to me now that 530 Plane or All I Want would have moved the Supremes into the times a bit more but not completely changed the sound so much that a lot of radio and a lot of casual fans when "who is that?"

[marxthespot]

Nearly 40 years later, the Jimmy Webb album is still misunderstood and underrated......

[jobeterob]

But will two "shrill" songs right?

[marv2]

Here we have Jean Terrell and Jimmy Webb, along with Mary Wilson and that other girl doing "Once In the Morning". It has that definite early to mid 70's sound to it and I always found the lyrics amusing. Give a listen:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8sFJeguOcE&feature=related

[MissLish]

Nearly 40 years later, the Jimmy Webb album is still misunderstood and underrated......


Brava! Brava!!

[topdiva1]

I was told that the much maligned and misunderstood Jimmy Webb Supremes album - was mired in conflict at Motown. Mr. Gordy did not like it at all, but had to release it due to cost and contract. Jimmy Webb wanted to really produce Diana Ross, but those rcording sessions are rumored not to have gone well. Mr Webb felt that he had been demoted to producing The Supremes. It was thought that Jean Terrell was increasing difficult in these recording sessions, and Mary Wilson was upset with Jeans attitude and demeanor. Never the less, Mr Webb was able to pull out a very different sound for The Supremes, but it was a sound and direction that was not well received by The Supremes. Motown, Berry Gordy and more importantly the fans. It was a concept album, whose concept remains UNCLEAR. It was artist, producer, and record label at odds, at best. Still. I say a unique album from The Supremes during the Jean Terrell years.

[Glenpwood]

Berry Gordy had to release it due to cost and contract? Its been reported over and over Motown charged the artists directly for all their sessions whether the songs were released or not. I think everyone is also in agreement that Motown wasnt pumping a lot of promotion or money into the group by 1972 so I'm sure after a string of low selling LPs [[since Right On) there wasnt a sudden change in the amount of money flowing into studio time or producers fees. Jimmy Webb is a great songwriter but wasnt a top record producer then or now so I'm sure he made no more or less than any other Motown producer of the era [[likely union scale since Motown didn't want to open themselves up to auditing by a disgruntled outsider thinking they were shafted on the producers points by under-reporting units sold). Theres also no accounting from the girls or Webb that the sessions dragged on and no rumors of tons of unreleased material from the period to drive up the costs. I'm sure Harry, George, or Andy would've hinted by now to finding these gems or included them on the T.I.T.S. box. Lastly, Berry would've never signed a deal with Webb or any producer that stipulated Motown had to put out whatever finished product was handed to them. They weren't throwing quality control meetings weekly like the old days but Motown certainly still had standards it adhered to. The overall song quality is good on the set. Even the song that started this topic as a whole isnt bad from a lyric standpoint for its era, its more Webb's arrangement and higher key choices for Jean causing her to go shrill that dimishes its appeal.....

[topdiva1]

I would love to here Jean Terrell's take on the Jimmy Webb album - along with Mary's.

[thommg]

I keep reading that Berry Gordy wouldn't do this and wouldn't do that and wanted this and wouldn't pay for this.... But was he even around and dealing with the recording aspect of Motoan at this point in time? Wasn't he already out in LA looking to make his mark in film? It seems to me that Berry wouldn't have even known much about this record but rather the people in charge of Motown Records at the time would have had a say in it. I mean, wasn't that the complaint of many of the classic artists, that Berry was never around once Motown entered the 70s? [[I apologize if this sounds a little snarky - it wasn't meant to be. I'm just wondering what the real lay of the land was at that time.)

[topdiva1]

While Berry Gordy's main focus and vision was no longer The Supremes during the Jimmy Webb sessions - it can be fairly certain that he did figure into the final nail in the coffin, of The Supremes, so to speak.

[captainjames]

Sorry, in my opinion I don't think Berry was doing any hammering. As stated by Mary Wilson, Berry said, "I wash my hands of the group." He walked away and said ok since you don't want my input, your on your own. As much as I would like to blame Berry, in my opinion the Supremes did themselves in by losing Gordy.

In my opinion again if I was Mary, I would have said back then after I sober up lets talk about it and see what we can come up with instead of NO !!! That was a boo boo.

[marv2]

Uh, yeah, well you know what? I also heard that Berry Gordy, in 1975 wanted he and Motown to take over management of the group again once he saw that there was still a very strong fan base and audience for the ladies. In other words, there was STILL money that could be made with the Supremes 5 years after his BIG pronouncement " I wash my hands of the whole goddamned group....."! That was said in anger and frustration. True, he was spending a considerable amount of time and a small fortune on Diane's solo career [[which he says later on after she had left Motown, that he never really made any money with her........... She was the label's "status artist" LOL!) So, whether Mary Wilson was stoned out of her mind or stoned cold sober, she made the right decision and we got Jean Terrell's talents to enjoy to this very day!

[gordy_hunk]

I was very disappointed when this album was released. It wasn't another 'Right on' or another 'New ways but love stays'. I had never heard of Jimmy Webb at the time, and had no idea he was famous.

I couldn't understand the point of the album, nor what the strategy was for the Supremes recording it.

Even now when I listen to the album, I'm still left with an 'emptiness' that leaves me wondering... 'what am I supposed to get out of this album'?

The only track I really did like was the non-Jimmy Webb - 'I guess I'll miss the man'!

If my memory serves me right, 'Tossin' and turnin' was released as a single, and made no impact on the chart - but then we didn't even have 'I guess I'll miss the man' released as a single!

[nathanj06]

I was very disappointed with this album as well. It was not a Supremes album but a Jimmy Webb science project. It was horrible! It should have been left in the vaults or never recorded in the first place. At this point they should have gone directly to Stevie Wonder. Even though "Bad Weather" didn't do well, it was a "Supremes" record. Does anyone know who's idea it was to put them with Webb? :confused:

[topdiva1]

Here it is:

Webb had a deal with Motown to produce Ross
Gordy and Ross HATED the sessions Webb did with Ross
Berry had a lot of money invested in the then GOLDEN BOY Webb
Webb had a big industry name and was thought to be solid gold at the time
Berry wanting to recoup lost money and had to honor the Webb contract - sent Webb packing to The Supremes
Webb was indeed not thrilled with this - Diana was hot and he wanted Diana
The Supremes were going though inner conflict when they started the Webb Sessions
Jean was"being difficult" by flexing her muscles as lead singer/ Diva
Jean thought very little of Mary's vocal talent
Mary thought herself the foundation and core of The Supremes
Jean thought Mary had maybe been hanging on to other peoples lead voices too long
Attitudes raged in the studio
Jean treated the Webb Sessions as a test for her solo project or career
Webb saw all of this and did his best to produce the album he reluctantly had too.
Webb was a concept guy - and used material perhaps meant for Ross on the Supremes
Webb took the Supremes in a new non Supreme/Motown and non commercial direction

Thus - in short of the drama that occurred you got:

The Supremes Jimmy Webb Album

A concept misunderstood by fans, not right for Motown or The Supremes, but actually a great album with some new and yet odd choices of material. Fans - did not receive this album well at all - NOR did Motown - and Webb and Motown parted ways with contracts fullfilled.

[Glenpwood]

where are the tapes from these Webb sessions on Ross? Since we now have expanded versions of all of Diana's studio albums through 1974, 2 years past when the Supremes album was released, its odd that they weren't included or the sessions havent been noted in any of the discographys I've seen compiled on Ross. Maybe Andrew or George can confirm or deny this?

[luke]

I never heard til reading this that Webb produced Ross-is this confirmed? The Webb album-the greatest Supremes album ever--Mary kind of rolled her eyes when I told her this but I dont care. It is magnificent.

[luke]

LOL marv--the other girl--Darlene Love?

[topdiva1]

It was said that the Ross/Webb session was just that A SESSION - not a mass collection of work . And most likely the tapes where trashed - as one bad record can RUIN A STAR!!!!

[blueskies]

I would love to here Jean Terrell's take on the Jimmy Webb album - along with Mary's.

I heard Jean interviewed and she appeared 'amazed' that the Blossoms had been added. Hello Jean! The background sounded like the Mormon Tabernacle Choir....did she think that was just Mary and Lynda?

[Glenpwood]

It was said that the Ross/Webb session was just that A SESSION - not a mass collection of work . And most likely the tapes where trashed - as one bad record can RUIN A STAR!!!!

Not to spit hairs topdiva1 but you listed in your prior post/list "sessions" which led me to believe they got through more than one song before Berry called the whole thing off and the one "bad" record never seemed to "ruin" Diana's star [[please see such flops as the "Funny Girl" LP which got rebounded by the Join The Temptations/TCB era and "Sorry Doesn't Always Make It Right" which was followed by "Theme From Mahogany"). In fact, flops in those days on the queen seemed to kick Gordy/Motown into high gear as far as promoting or finding number ones hits to reconfirm her chart "supremacy".....

[topdiva1]

I loved The Supremes Sing and Perform Funny Girl - but I guess it is in the same vein of Jimmy Webb or even the Rogers and Hart or County Western and A Bit of Liverpool - all somewhat experimental, with the girls searching out to the masses.

[marv2]

LOL marv--the other girl--Darlene Love?

I'm just saying, it might has well been Clara Ward and the Clara Ward Singers with Mary and Jean on that album, hehehehehehehe......

[luke]

Yea right-lol; are you speaking of the person who was almost the Donna Summer of Australia? I never knew the Blossoms were back there until it was reported in recent years. The album was a pet project of Jean's. Webb still speaks very highly of it.

[marv2]

You mean the one that offered $ 4 million cash dollars to move to Australia and become the Australian Donna Summer? The same one that stole Latin Music Legend , Celia Cruz's "look" after she passed away??

I don't even know that is actually the Blossoms singing with them on that album. It could have been one or two of their members. Darlene has never mentioned it and she tells everything, hehehehehhehehe.........

[bradsupremes]

“Diana Ross & The Supremes Sing & Perform Funny Girl" was the worst idea anyone could ever have for an album. It boggles my mind that Berry Gordy ever thought the "Funny Girl" album was good idea, yet he thought making a concept album out of the "Love Child" album with songs about social awareness was a bad one. They would have done better releasing more vaulted tracks. However, in defense of the "Funny Girl" album, it has great vocals by the girls and a top notch production quality. Bad idea with great results.

"A Bit of Liverpool" was a good album on the account that you could really hear all three girls when they sang. The idea of turning down the background vocals didn't occur yet.

As for the Jimmy Webb LP, it was a poor album. The combination of the Supremes and Jimmy Webb sounds like a great idea, but the results were less than satisfying. It's very much the opposite of the "Funny Girl" album idea. The Jimmy Webb LP was a great idea, but had poor results. Maybe an album would have been more successful had Motown got Jimmy Webb when he was on a hot streak in the late 60's. Maybe Jimmy could have helped the Supremes get back up to the top charts when they were faltering in 1968-1969. Going outside of the label was a good idea in 1968-1969. Clearly Motown writers and producers were not delivering the right material for the Supremes during that time. Getting the likes of someone like Jimmy Webb, Bones Howe, or maybe even Bacharach & David would have done well for the Supremes. However, it was a bad idea in 1972. The Supremes had been very successful with Frank Wilson in the early 70's and Motown should have kept him as their producer regardless if "Touch" failed on the charts. I've always felt that Frank Wilson was the Supremes second best producer, the first being Holland-Dozier-Holland.

Out of all the concept albums, "The Supremes Sing Rodgers & Hart" was by far the best and in my opinion one of the best albums the group ever recorded. It is a well-produced album with a great selection of songs that showed the group's versatility. Too bad they didn't release the album as a double LP set because many of the unreleased tracks were just as good, if not better than what was released. They should have released a single from the album as well. At a time when the Four Seasons were reviving "I Got You Under My Skin," the Supremes could have a potential hit with "My Heart Stood Still," "This Can't Be Love" or "Mountain Greenery."

[luke]

Friends of mine who were never Supremes fans were blown away by the Jimmy Webb album. It certainly wasnt a girl group album-what a nice surprise! How anyone can prefer Floy Joy over it boggles my mind. But we all have our opinions and thats AOK! The Disney cuts and Funny Girl album make me squirm.

[jobeterob]

It's been a long time since I got to look at Soulful Detroit.

What I did get to see was two military jets on training exercises streak by the Lake Louise Chateau and into the glacier......turn around and go home. I'll post those pictures when I get home......I'm in Calgary and in the bush other than that.

Next week, back to Calgary for Diana Ross!

BUT ............ the Supremes sing Rodgers and Hart was a huge hit, a huge success, with big chart numbers and big sales; hence the reissued CD.

The Supremes Sing Rodgers and Hart was a disaster with very poor chart numbers and very poor sales - it is pretty much unknown except for people like us on forums like these.

It had some excellent songs. It was essentially a Jean Terrell album though and it must have pissed Mary and Pedro off because other than I Keep It Hid, it was about Jean. And the shrill songs killed it and really sound pretty bad today.

The one chance the album had was to release 530 Plane first and put the group out there as 70's women about town with a new image that was working in the early 70's - the one Motown built around Diana too.

But putting them out there as dandelions, Jean with a choir, one cut with Mary who's voice was unknown to the world - it just didn't work. This album pretty much sealed the groups fate.

As Mary has said, none of the albums sold well and the numbers just kept deteriorating. I'm not sure if there was really anything that could have stopped it. As Motown executives said and as some of the anthologies say - times change, styles change, sounds change - and time just left the Supremes behind.

But the Jimmy Webb album, whether good, really good, or horrible, sure wasn't the answer to reinventing the group and Jimmy Webb with the Supremes, if suggested to music fans today would probably bring a lot of guffaws and disbelief that it even happened. It wasn't a good idea.

[marv2]

That Jimmy Webb album wasn't their best, but it also wasn't horrible. There are some very good songs on it and some quite complex, mature lyrics. What people complain about when they say it wasn't "a Supremes Album" is that it did not have any snappy, peppy, bubblegum type songs on it and it was wrapped in a plain [[ non glamourous )album jacket! It was adult contemporary before the genre became popular.


Jobeterob you are wrong when you say " Mary who's voice was unknown to the world ". The Jimmy Webb was released in 1972. The Supremes just had two charting singles in 1972 prior to the Webb album that featured Mary Wilson's voice very prominently. Don't you remember "Floy Joy" and "Automatically Sunshine"? Hell, the Supremes first number one hit "Where Did Our Love Go? also featured Mary Wilson's voice prominently.

Your comment about the album pissing Mary and Pedro off would have been impossible because she didn't even know him yet!

I think "Beyond Myself " is a great song. Too deep and far too complex than anything they would have did with their old lead singer.

[marv2]

"..... and time just left the Supremes behind."

Yet we are still talking about them in 2010. I wonder how many people are still talking about the Ink Spots or the Beatles for that matter? Last time I check there hundreds of video clips put up by people of the Supremes on Youtube.

[George Solomon]

I honestly never heard that the Jimmy Webb songs were intended for Diana. I don't know everything...But all the original tape boxes have The Supremes written on them. There are other tape boxes that have Diana's name on them like "Don't Leave Me This Way" and several tracks from Martha's Black Magic LP.

[topdiva1]

Great post Bradsupremes - enjoyed reading it - thanks.

[Glenpwood]

Thanks George for commenting as always. Imagine if Don't Leave Me This Way ever turned up, I'd be in disco bliss.....

[milven]

It was said that the Ross/Webb session was just that A SESSION - not a mass collection of work . And most likely the tapes where trashed - as one bad record can RUIN A STAR!!!!
Interesting. It was said by who?

[milven]

I was told that the much maligned and misunderstood Jimmy Webb Supremes album - was mired in conflict at Motown. Mr. Gordy did not like it at all, but had to release it due to cost and contract. Jimmy Webb wanted to really produce Diana Ross, but those recording sessions are rumored not to have gone well. Mr Webb felt that he had been demoted to producing The Supremes. It was thought that Jean Terrell was increasing difficult in these recording sessions, and Mary Wilson was upset with Jeans attitude and demeanor. Never the less, Mr Webb was able to pull out a very different sound for The Supremes, but it was a sound and direction that was not well received by The Supremes. Motown, Berry Gordy and more importantly the fans. It was a concept album, whose concept remains UNCLEAR. It was artist, producer, and record label at odds, at best. Still. I say a unique album from The Supremes during the Jean Terrell years.

Lots of interesting info in your post Top Diva. A few questions. You were told by whom that the album was mired in conflict? Was it by anyone with any credibility, or just a fan who heard from someone who heard from someone who heard from someone?

"It was thought that Jean was increasingly difficult in the recording sessions" It was thought by whom? And has it ever been confirmed by anyone that she was difficult?

[milven]

...If my memory serves me right, 'Tossin' and turnin' was released as a single, and made no impact on the chart - but then we didn't even have 'I guess I'll miss the man' released as a single!

Tossin and Turnin was not released in the states as a single. I Guess I'll Miss The Man was released as a single about the same time that PIPPIN premiered on Broadway. In fact, I think it was the first 45 that Motown released in stereo. It seemed out of place on the Jimmy Webb album

[smark21]

Is it possible that there may be confusion between the Bones Howe sessions in which Diana recorded Time and Love, Stoney End, Love's Angles, and The Interim that were shelved and vaulted [[and a couple of songs then went to the 5th Dimension, and the Time and Love track was given for Jean to sing on) and the Jimmy Webb project?

[pj1]

[QUOTE=Tossin and Turnin was not released in the states as a single. I Guess I'll Miss The Man was released as a single about the same time that PIPPIN premiered on Broadway. In fact, I think it was the first 45 that Motown released in stereo. It seemed out of place on the Jimmy Webb album]
Although Tossin' and Turnin' was not released as a single here in the U.S., I remember hearing it played several times on the radio [[at least in Pittsburgh) after the album was released. Perhaps one of the local dj's really liked the song or had connections to someone across the pond

[milven]

And didn't they also sing it on Merv Griffen? Maybe it was to be a single, but I'm glad it wasn't.

[luke]

I Keep It Hid is Mary's best performance on record IMO. An intelligent, very moving song sung beautifully. Webb sure knew how to produce her. 530 Plane could have bee a hit. Another extremely well written song with great crescendos. I find these songs much more interesting than Automatically Sunshine. Tossin, Cheap Lovin--ugh.

[topdiva1]

Milven - my sources are never fans - but those in high places.

[topdiva1]

Mary Wilson gave them hell on I Keep It Hide!!!!

[marv2]

It's so funny that near the end of the old forum, there was a discussion regarding the Supremes becoming stale and losing popularity because of the changing times. When they tried new things, they were criticized because they strayed from their "Supremes bag".

[jillfoster]

Ok.... miss know it all is going to chime in on this. What in the world makes you all think that the Jimmy Webb album is not commercial? In the 1970-74 time period, lush, choral arrangements were very popular in modern music, why not try it on the Supremes? A few examples:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZUdzr9e2GQ


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwVfci-YtMM


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ls8Mhoafn0


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqEHaQ1RbME


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNQXQKflJNA


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4n67IxCvxjo&feature=related


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZsHlgP85-w

[topdiva1]

Milven - trust and believe I have a great sources 0 thanks!!

[sup_fan]

i don't know if jean's "attitude" was a problem for the Webb recording sessions. but jean and mary were not kissin' cousin close. mary even states this in her book - that she increasingly had to reply on Cindy and their wardrobe mistress to help communicate with her. jean was NOT of the motown mindset - being a glamour girl in a pop confection entitled the supremes and towing the company line. that was more mary, diana and cindy. jean was outspoken, opinionated and definite ideas of who she was as a singer and how she wanted to be presented. those ideas did not sit well with motown which is why gordy wanted to replace her. so by 72, there was tension between mary and jean. this isn't to say they were hurling high heels at each other every minute but there were definite issues within the framework of the group.

Cindy left right when floy joy was released. although the album and lead single did well, auto sunshine and YWSSL were not huge hits. I'm guessing here but i think the management was like "ok - we tried the frank wilson approach and that worked ok for a couple years but trailed off. then we tried smokey and that worked at first but it too trailed off. let's try something else" I believe Wayne Weisbert, their current manager, was responsible for hooking them up with Jimmy. I too agree with many of the comments on here and feel that the end product, though a valiant effort, just didn't work as well. plus the group and the members had started to drift from the mainstream public eye and so a random shot in the dark is even less likely to work then. you can try something that radical when you're white hot but it's very hard when you're on the slide down

And topdiva, sorry, i have to disagree with u regarding Diana and Jimmy. this was done during mid 72, a time when she was buried in Billie Holiday and the movie. she was doing very little outside of that

[gordy_hunk]

Tossin and Turnin was not released in the states as a single. I Guess I'll Miss The Man was released as a single about the same time that PIPPIN premiered on Broadway. In fact, I think it was the first 45 that Motown released in stereo. It seemed out of place on the Jimmy Webb album

Not everyone lives in the US. I stand by my comments - 'Tossin and turnin' was released as a single here, and it failed to make an entry in the Top 75.

[milven]

Milven - my sources are never fans - but those in high places.

And who are those in high places? Curious minds want to know


Milven - trust and believe I have a great sources 0 thanks!!

Trust but verify. I have great sources too. Mary's book, Berry's book, Diana's book, Tony's book, Soul Magazine, Jet Magazine, Ebony and of course, the little old lady who lived in the shoe. She, like you, had so many sources, she did not know what to do.

[milven]

Not everyone lives in the US. I stand by my comments - 'Tossin and turnin' was released as a single here, and it failed to make an entry in the Top 75.

That's why I went out of my way to specify that it was "not released in the states as a single". I was not sure if it was released elsewhere as a single. Thanks for clarifying. Nevertheless, I think that it was a poor choice as a single here, there, or anywhere.

[sup_fan]

i thought tossin was kinda a fun track. their live version really was good. Lynda did some kickass backgrounds on the live at japan set. again, would have preferred no blossoms but oh well.

[jobeterob]

I'm often on the top of a mountain. Would I be a friend in high places?

I have friends that live in very low places that have a reasonable opinion of themselves, but not high - and they are friends, as in personal friends, with Diana Ross. They have a very low opinion of some of what is allowed on SD and a lower opinion of the character of some of the posters. One of them recently privately asked me if I thought any of our posters were doing so from a jail cell! I said I didn't think so other than the limited "cell" of their heads.

This is a post that will not get me many friend requests, right?

[Glenpwood]

Most of the stuff on the forum [[or almost any music forum on the internet) falls into three categories.

1) Positive comments and thoughts coming from fans.

2) Negative comments from people feeding off misinformation from other sources and sensationalized gossip that cannot be confirmed and usually just posted to get a rise out of other board members.

3) Lastly, members being too sensitive of people having an critical opinion of an artists work [[particulary one they are a die hard fan of) or a posters sense of humor being misconstrued as mean spirited.

Folks who read these boards just have to remember they can take the good they find here and leave the rest. We are blessed to have people like Ralph, Deke, George, Andy, and Susaye to come around and contribute and can understand why a lot of other Motowners wouldn't. I imagine it'd be like getting a daily job review and having to justify their actions during events from decades ago to hundreds of people and never pleasing them all. As for the folks posting from jail, I bet peoples opinions of them would change fast if they knew where some unreleased material from the Temps/Tops/Supremes/Vandellas were stashed....:)

[marybrewster]

I'm often on the top of a mountain. Would I be a friend in high places?

I have friends that live in very low places that have a reasonable opinion of themselves, but not high - and they are friends, as in personal friends, with Diana Ross. They have a very low opinion of some of what is allowed on SD and a lower opinion of the character of some of the posters. One of them recently privately asked me if I thought any of our posters were doing so from a jail cell! I said I didn't think so other than the limited "cell" of their heads.

This is a post that will not get me many friend requests, right?

Do they ever question your posts, rob? ;)

[milven]

I Keep It Hid is Mary's best performance on record IMO.....

Has Mary ever included this song in any of her solo shows?

[topdiva1]

Just gave this a revisit - it remains - interesting and yet hard to listen too - a real mixed bag of conflict - which most likely was well suited to The Supremes at this latter stage.

[robbert]

I honestly never heard that the Jimmy Webb songs were intended for Diana. I don't know everything...But all the original tape boxes have The Supremes written on them. There are other tape boxes that have Diana's name on them like "Don't Leave Me This Way" and several tracks from Martha's Black Magic LP.

Thanks for your always invaluable comments, George.
I'll give Black Magic another spin to try and figure out which ones of the tracks could've been meant for Diana... or do you know them by heart?
So Black Magic after all was a sort of 'left over', a 'crumb off the table' for Martha? That would explain why it is such an unbalanced album. Poor Martha must have felt terrible to be put in Diana's shadow so bluntly.