Jean Terrell and Motown

[luke]

I just watched Jean and Smokey sing Someday...and it made me wonder considering Jean's amazing talent if they made any attempt to keep her from leaving. Was she too "headstrong" for Motown? I assume her contract was up in 1973.

[marv2]

I just watched Jean and Smokey sing Someday...and it made me wonder considering Jean's amazing talent if they made any attempt to keep her from leaving. Was she too "headstrong" for Motown? I assume her contract was up in 1973.

I don't think they made any real attempt and they were crazy to let her go! Jean was one of the best female vocalists to ever record for Motown. Stories over the years have tried to paint her as headstrong, uncooperative etc,etc. but the truth is Motown frustrated her as they did so many others.

Jean and Smokey singing Someday backed by Mary and Cindy is music made in Heaven!

[jaybs]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mN7BRBuIOuw

[Bluebrock]

I have heard the stories about Jean being difficult. She certainly gave Mary some sleepless nights but a reliable source told me that Jean was greatly frustrated at always living in Diana's shadow and certain promises made to her were not fulfilled. I don't wish to go into it too deeply but I will say that few tears were shed when Jean quit the group. It is a great pity because Jean was immensely talented and she may have fared better as a solo artist.Her work with the Supremes remains magnificent and I have nothing but total respect for this ladies talent.

[mowest]

"Jean and Smokey singing Someday backed by Mary and Cindy is music made in Heaven!"

Where can this be heard? Thanks.

[marv2]

"Jean and Smokey singing Someday backed by Mary and Cindy is music made in Heaven!"

Where can this be heard? Thanks.



This is the best video available online:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obOHGtc6Yjg

[mowest]

This is the best video available online:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obOHGtc6Yjg

Thanks, marv2, for posting this. Don't know how I missed it the first time around! Great performances by all.

[luke]

A lot of people have spoken about missing it when it was broadcast .

[marv2]

A lot of people have spoken about missing it when it was broadcast .

I was lucky to see it when it aired in December 1970. Motown gave us a lot for Christmas that year! I always wondered why they never released a soundtrack album for this great show.

[luke]

Makes me wish Mary and Cindy had been on the original recording! Mary wearing the only green.. Did Diana wear it before ? Was this purposely to single Mary out? Or size issue? Where was other Miracle??

[bradsupremes]

Makes me wish Mary and Cindy had been on the original recording! Mary wearing the only green.. Did Diana wear it before ? Was this purposely to single Mary out? Or size issue? Where was other Miracle??

It was a size issue. On a lot of the gowns, Jean wore Cindy's, Cindy wore Mary's and Mary wore Diana's. Now, there were a few instances where Jean did wear Diana's like the yellow bugle bead pantsuit and the silver to bronze sequin/beaded gowns. If that was the case then I would assume Jean could have fit into the green one. I doubt Diana's size changed that much if at all. Maybe the waist was just a bit too uncomfortably tight on Jean? Unfortunately those pantsuits were lost in the fire in Mexico back in 1974 so we don't know the waist size.

When Scherrie and Susaye entered the picture, Mary still wore Diana's while they [[Scherrie and Susaye) wore Mary and Cindy's. Not sure why Mary didn't wear her own gowns as Scherrie and Susaye were much more smaller and petite and probably could have fit into Diana's better. Susaye swam in Cindy's old gowns and those gowns were greatly cut and altered.

[Roberta75]

It was a size issue. On a lot of the gowns, Jean wore Cindy's, Cindy wore Mary's and Mary wore Diana's. Now, there were a few instances where Jean did wear Diana's like the yellow bugle bead pantsuit and the silver to bronze sequin/beaded gowns. If that was the case then I would assume Jean could have fit into the green one. I doubt Diana's size changed that much if at all. Maybe the waist was just a bit too uncomfortably tight on Jean? Unfortunately those pantsuits were lost in the fire in Mexico back in 1974 so we don't know the waist size.

When Scherrie and Susaye entered the picture, Mary still wore Diana's while they [[Scherrie and Susaye) wore Mary and Cindy's. Not sure why Mary didn't wear her own gowns as Scherrie and Susaye were much more smaller and petite and probably could have fit into Diana's better. Susaye swam in Cindy's old gowns and those gowns were greatly cut and altered.

Maybe Mary felt closer to Diane by wearing her gowns and it kept Diane a part of the group for Mary.

fondlty,

Roberta

[marv2]

Maybe Mary felt closer to Diane by wearing her gowns and it kept Diane a part of the group for Mary.

fondlty,

Roberta


I don't think that was ever a thought.

[rod_rick]

It was a size issue. On a lot of the gowns, Jean wore Cindy's, Cindy wore Mary's and Mary wore Diana's. Now, there were a few instances where Jean did wear Diana's like the yellow bugle bead pantsuit and the silver to bronze sequin/beaded gowns. If that was the case then I would assume Jean could have fit into the green one. I doubt Diana's size changed that much if at all. Maybe the waist was just a bit too uncomfortably tight on Jean? Unfortunately those pantsuits were lost in the fire in Mexico back in 1974 so we don't know the waist size.

When Scherrie and Susaye entered the picture, Mary still wore Diana's while they [[Scherrie and Susaye) wore Mary and Cindy's. Not sure why Mary didn't wear her own gowns as Scherrie and Susaye were much more smaller and petite and probably could have fit into Diana's better. Susaye swam in Cindy's old gowns and those gowns were greatly cut and altered.
More than likely Diana;s gowns were already altered to fit Mary so they just altered 2 instead of all 3.

[daviddh]

I think Jean had 2 more years on her contract with Motown. not sure exactly but when Scherrie joined she couldn't record with them because of a contract issue, not positive but I think she was still under contract with another label and they had to wait it out. as a result no supremes album 1973 or 74. a hits album with Jean called Gold was planned but cancelled after Bad Weather failed. note that BG wanted to manage the supremes twice but MW told him NO but then complained Motown wasn't doing anything for them.

[Roberta75]

I think Jean had 2 more years on her contract with Motown. not sure exactly but when Scherrie joined she couldn't record with them because of a contract issue, not positive but I think she was still under contract with another label and they had to wait it out. as a result no supremes album 1973 or 74. a hits album with Jean called Gold was planned but cancelled after Bad Weather failed. note that BG wanted to manage the supremes twice but MW told him NO but then complained Motown wasn't doing anything for them.

Motown did plenty for them IMO. the 70s Supremes was all over TV as YouTube has now proved. Anyways its 45 years later and all water under the bridge now.

Roberta

[luke]

Never heard about Gordy wanting to manage the Suoremes then.

[marv2]

Motown did plenty for them IMO. the 70s Supremes was all over TV as YouTube has now proved. Anyways its 45 years later and all water under the bridge now.

Roberta

In YOUR opinion! According to the ladies themselves.......they did not!

[marv2]

Never heard about Gordy wanting to manage the Suoremes then.

He mentioned it once after he saw movement on "Let My Heart Do the Walking". What was Mary going to do? Fire her husband? Get outta dodge! LOL!!!

[Jimi LaLumia]

according to all accounts, when the boss did not have his wish granted [[Syretta was his wish for whatever reason) he said that he 'washed his hands of the group', nothing sneaky or under handed, he made the statement and he apparently lived up to it.. so the Gordy touch and/or occasional 'intervention' was taken off the table.. they still bought ads in the trades, booked them onto plenty of tv shows [[they were on Soul Train a lot, and the Ed Sullivan Show going off the air certainly hurt them as well as early 70's solo Ross , Sullivan had been the merchandise show room through the 60's..)

[marv2]

according to all accounts, when the boss did not have his wish granted [[Syretta was his wish for whatever reason) he said that he 'washed his hands of the group', nothing sneaky or under handed, he made the statement and he apparently lived up to it.. so the Gordy touch and/or occasional 'intervention' was taken off the table.. they still bought ads in the trades, booked them onto plenty of tv shows [[they were on Soul Train a lot, and the Ed Sullivan Show going off the air certainly hurt them as well as early 70's solo Ross , Sullivan had been the merchandise show room through the 60's..)

With all that, they still were the most successful female group of the 70s!

[Bluebrock]

With all that, they still were the most successful female group of the 70s!
They certainly were Marv. At least in the States but the competition wasn't as strong in the 70's for female groups as it was in the 80's and 90's. The Three Degrees stole the Supremes thunder in the UK but for whatever reason didn't last in the USA. Best regards.

[daviddh]

i still think they did well in the 70s. I think the loss of Frank Wilson as producer hurt them, who decided this??? Jean did a great job with them and Lynda was a good addition. Motown closing Detroit location was also a blow not only to the Supremes but to everyone. the only thing BG cared about was making movies. one by one they all left year after year until only the big three were left, then DR left.

[luke]

I thought the 70s Supremes did quite well in UK. Didn't Soned Love go to 3 and Nathan Jones top 10?

[marv2]

Makes me wish Mary and Cindy had been on the original recording! Mary wearing the only green.. Did Diana wear it before ? Was this purposely to single Mary out? Or size issue? Where was other Miracle??
Smokey states that Pete Moore was injured playing basketball as the reason he does not appear on this special.

[REDHOT]

Me and Marv disagree on this,and we're still cool,Jean Terrell was a pain in the you know what,she didn't get alone with anyone,sure she was a great talent,with a great voice,but a very moody person,no one was gonna put up with Jean's different moods,not Berry Gordy,the promoters,and not Mary Wilson and the other Supremes,Jean could have been great,after she left The Supremes,but she didn't want it,she was done with Show Business,wanted nothing to do with it,i'v said this many times,what a great body of work,Jean had with The Supremes.

[luke]

Thanks Marv for Miracle info

[marv2]

Thanks Marv for Miracle info

You're welcome Luke. Merry Christmas!

[luke]

Thx. Same to you Marv!

[Bluebrock]

I thought the 70s Supremes did quite well in UK. Didn't Soned Love go to 3 and Nathan Jones top 10?
Yes they did do well in the UK for a while, Stoned Love went top 3. Nathan Jones top 5. Up the ladder no.6, whilst Floy Joy and Automatically Sunshine both went top 10, but the Three Degrees did even better than that, but its all immaterial now.

[Bluebrock]

Me and Marv disagree on this,and we're still cool,Jean Terrell was a pain in the you know what,she didn't get alone with anyone,sure she was a great talent,with a great voice,but a very moody person,no one was gonna put up with Jean's different moods,not Berry Gordy,the promoters,and not Mary Wilson and the other Supremes,Jean could have been great,after she left The Supremes,but she didn't want it,she was done with Show Business,wanted nothing to do with it,i'v said this many times,what a great body of work,Jean had with The Supremes.
Jean was indeed difficult, but she was not on her own. It was not all entirely her fault but i do not wish to start WW3 by dredging up stories that are over 40 years old. She could, and should have behaved in a more professional manner , but she was let down badly by certain people and as such basically lost the will to continue. Sad but true.

[Jimi LaLumia]

Three Degrees had more charted singles in the UK than the 70's Supremes, but in terms of BIG hits, Top 20 hits, both groups had 7 each, so in that regard, Top 20 chart placings, it's a tie..

[Bluebrock]

Three Degrees had more charted singles in the UK than the 70's Supremes, but in terms of BIG hits, Top 20 hits, both groups had 7 each, so in that regard, Top 20 chart placings, it's a tie..
Fair point, but i think The Three Degrees enjoyed 1 x no.1 and 1 x no.2 as well as more smaller hits so technically i believe i am correct in my original summing up.

[Bluebrock]

Three Degrees had more charted singles in the UK than the 70's Supremes, but in terms of BIG hits, Top 20 hits, both groups had 7 each, so in that regard, Top 20 chart placings, it's a tie..
Jimi - just double checked. The Supremes had 6 top 20 UK hits whilst The Three Degrees had 7, but i was incorrect when i said claimed they reached no,2 with Woman in love. It only reached no.3, but "when will i see you again" was of course a UK no.1.

[daviddh]

i suppose Jean and Flo had something in common. they both felt let down by Motown . one day the truth will come out but for now I will just enjoy the music they made. just wish we had more supremes 70s stuff with Jean. maybe the 70's Lost and Found will tidy up whats left. I know they did some more work with Frank Wilson in early 73[[Love Train) and a few other tracks. a left over from Floy Joy is in the vaults as well plus all the other out takes.keep our fingers crossed for this

[Bluebrock]

i suppose Jean and Flo had something in common. they both felt let down by Motown . one day the truth will come out but for now I will just enjoy the music they made. just wish we had more supremes 70s stuff with Jean. maybe the 70's Lost and Found will tidy up whats left. I know they did some more work with Frank Wilson in early 73[[Love Train) and a few other tracks. a left over from Floy Joy is in the vaults as well plus all the other out takes.keep our fingers crossed for this
I have heard there is enough material to make a 2cd lost and found. It's very frustrating knowing there is so much unheard material gathering dust in the vaults, Universal don't seem to think there is a market for these songs. How wrong they are on so many counts.

[Jimi LaLumia]

ok.. but from a technical point, the Supremes name, minus Jean, had a 7th UK Top 10 in the 1970's, when the original "Baby Love" was re issued as a single,to promote a "Greatest Hits" album, and the re issued single peaked at #12 in August of 1974..Merry Christmas!!

[marv2]

Yes they did do well in the UK for a while, Stoned Love went top 3. Nathan Jones top 5. Up the ladder no.6, whilst Floy Joy and Automatically Sunshine both went top 10, but the Three Degrees did even better than that, but its all immaterial now.

Exactly what songs by the Three Degrees charted higher in the U.K. than those mentioned by the Supremes?

[Jimi LaLumia]

In the UK When Will I See You Again went to #1, the Degrees also went to #13 "Year Of Decision",#9 "Take Good Care Of Yourself",#12 Givin Up Givin In",#3 "Woman In Love",#10 The Runner, and #9 My Simple Heart in the 1970's, so yeah, UK loved them..but they kept recording through 1979 so they had that advantage, there was no period of studio inactivity

[Bluebrock]

Exactly what songs by the Three Degrees charted higher in the U.K. than those mentioned by the Supremes?
The Three Degrees had 10 top 40 UK hits as well as several other minor hits. The biggest being "when will i see you again" which was a UK no.1. The 2nd biggest being "woman in love" [[not the Streisand song) which reached no.3 tying with the 70's Supremes biggest UK hit "stoned love" which also hit no.3. Merry Christmas!!

[Jimi LaLumia]

apparently "Let My Heart Do The Walking" did nothing over there on the main singles chart

[Bluebrock]

ok.. but from a technical point, the Supremes name, minus Jean, had a 7th UK Top 10 in the 1970's, when the original "Baby Love" was re issued as a single,to promote a "Greatest Hits" album, and the re issued single peaked at #12 in August of 1974..Merry Christmas!!
Good point Jimi but the 1976 reissue of "baby love" was billed as Diana Ross and the Supremes!! Merry Christmas to you too my friend!!!

[Bluebrock]

apparently "Let My Heart Do The Walking" did nothing over there on the main singles chart
No it didn't but i think the main reason was because Mary had fallen out with the BBC the year before whilst promoting "he's my man". As a result the BBC did not put the follow up single "early morning love" on the radio 1 playlist. They had heavily played "he's my man". Indeed Tony Blackburn had it as his record of the week, but after the disagreement the BBC stopped supporting the Supremes and all subsequent singles were not playlisted and they were not invited back on to "top of the pops" or other variety shows to promote their singles.

[marv2]

The Three Degrees had 10 top 40 UK hits as well as several other minor hits. The biggest being "when will i see you again" which was a UK no.1. The 2nd biggest being "woman in love" [[not the Streisand song) which reached no.3 tying with the 70's Supremes biggest UK hit "stoned love" which also hit no.3. Merry Christmas!!

They came no where close to the Supremes accomplishments here in the U.S. I believe they had only 1 number one record here and most have never heard of the group.

[luke]

What was this falling out about??

[daviddh]

Let My Heart Do The Walking was a tremendous return to form for them. great track. it should have been bigger but it did hang in there on Billboard for 13 weeks, kind of a slow burner.

[luke]

I'm sure Mary's friendships with Dick Clark, Don Cornelius etc helped get them booked on TV. She was highly regarded by many in the industry.

[Bluebrock]

They came no where close to the Supremes accomplishments here in the U.S. I believe they had only 1 number one record here and most have never heard of the group.
I know that. After leaving Philly they had a couple of stagnant years before returning with great success in the late 70's. Their career kind of died in the States due in no small way to the ladies basing themselves in Europe, They made some great songs and were excellent on the live circuit but they could never replace the Supremes in my heart.

[Bluebrock]

What was this falling out about??
It's perhaps best not to go into too much detail , especially at this time of year but lets just say that during this particular tour the Supremes were not at their best and Mary knew it but did not approve of being told by certain people. Let' s remain positive. Merry Christmas!

[luke]

Just asking as u mentioned it. Happy holidays !!

[Bluebrock]

Just asking as u mentioned it. Happy holidays !!
You too Luke!!

[marv2]

It's perhaps best not to go into too much detail , especially at this time of year but lets just say that during this particular tour the Supremes were not at their best and Mary knew it but did not approve of being told by certain people. Let' s remain positive. Merry Christmas!

They performed on "Supersonic" during that tour in 1975 and they were great!

[Bluebrock]

They performed on "Supersonic" during that tour in 1975 and they were great!
Yes they did and they were great. They also did TOTP which was okay but they got some stinking reviews for the live shows, but in the interests of fairness they were splendid when they returned the following year when Susaye had replaced Cindy.

[Jimi LaLumia]

I didn't know about a scuffle with the BBC and Radio One and all that over there...never saw it mentioned anywhere..I always wondered why "Heart" hadn't registered over there

[marv2]

I didn't know about a scuffle with the BBC and Radio One and all that over there...never saw it mentioned anywhere..I always wondered why "Heart" hadn't registered over there

I never heard of it either. Merry Christmas Jimi!

[Bluebrock]

I didn't know about a scuffle with the BBC and Radio One and all that over there...never saw it mentioned anywhere..I always wondered why "Heart" hadn't registered over there
There is no reason why you would. In the pre-internet days overseas news did not travel so quickly. In fairness it was hardly headline news over here. I heard about it from a former colleague who worked for Motown UK,

[Jimi LaLumia]

Merry Christmas, Marv, and everyone here! It's Time To Move On....to 2016!..go, Mary!!

[detmotownguy]

Jimi same to you. I enjoy your contributions to the site .

[Jimi LaLumia]

thanks..Happy New Year to everyone and to ALL The Supremes as well..

[franjoy56]

Motown released 8 albums featuring Jean Terrell as lead singer of the group and that is a lot of music. Furthermore every single Motown released with Jean singing lead hit the Hot 100 whether it was in the upper reaches or bottom reaches of the chart they all hit from Up the ladder to the roof #10 thru Bad Weather #87 everybody got the right #21, Nathan Jones 16, Touch 71, Floy Joy 16 Automatically 37, You Wonderful Love 54, I guess Ill miss the man 85. In addition River Deep Mt. high #14 and You Got to Have Love in your Heart #54. That's quite a bit for BG who washed his hands of the Jean Terrell group. Merry Christmas everybody.

[franjoy56]

I forgot "Stoned LOve" their biggest hit #7 #1 r and b this week.

[marv2]

Motown released 8 albums featuring Jean Terrell as lead singer of the group and that is a lot of music. Furthermore every single Motown released with Jean singing lead hit the Hot 100 whether it was in the upper reaches or bottom reaches of the chart they all hit from Up the ladder to the roof #10 thru Bad Weather #87 everybody got the right #21, Nathan Jones 16, Touch 71, Floy Joy 16 Automatically 37, You Wonderful Love 54, I guess Ill miss the man 85. In addition River Deep Mt. high #14 and You Got to Have Love in your Heart #54. That's quite a bit for BG who washed his hands of the Jean Terrell group. Merry Christmas everybody.

~What a great accomplishment. Jean and the Supremes scored from their first time out together.

[Jimi LaLumia]

absolutely.. the fans never washed their hands of the girls , post-Jean,bringing 'Let my Heart.." into the Pop Top 40..

[jim aka jtigre99]

The first record I ever bought was Up The Ladder To The Roof when I was 11. I had to backtrack to the earlier group. Jean Terrell was a great lead singer. I also loved hearing Mary Wilson sing lead. Visually the 60's group was very glamorous with very deliberate choreography. Times changed by the 1970's and Terrell did not offer the visual excitement of the prior group, in my opinion, although Mary & Cindy seemed to excel more visually at this time. Jean had a very distinctive voice. Once Scherrie Payne joined they were very visual and glamorous once again but with the trio all moving to the disco beat. I had always wondered why it took Jean from 1973 until 1978 to release her A & M LP. It was very good but I read she refused to tour to support it. She may have had the talent but she must have lacked the drive to succeed in show business. Very curious as to why she didn't record solo at Motown. Mary Wilson[[Red Hot) & Scherrie Payne[[Fly) both had a solo 45 from Motown even when Motown was not doing well and a few years after the group ended. It is a curiosity.

[marybrewster]

Here is an ad for the Smokey Robinson Special:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHErT_1GuKs

[marybrewster]

Additionally, for those that may have missed it, here is the link to another thread on this topic:

http://soulfuldetroit.com/showthread.php?13360-Smokey-Robinson-Full-Special-1970&highlight=smokey+robinson+special

[Bluebrock]

The first record I ever bought was Up The Ladder To The Roof when I was 11. I had to backtrack to the earlier group. Jean Terrell was a great lead singer. I also loved hearing Mary Wilson sing lead. Visually the 60's group was very glamorous with very deliberate choreography. Times changed by the 1970's and Terrell did not offer the visual excitement of the prior group, in my opinion, although Mary & Cindy seemed to excel more visually at this time. Jean had a very distinctive voice. Once Scherrie Payne joined they were very visual and glamorous once again but with the trio all moving to the disco beat. I had always wondered why it took Jean from 1973 until 1978 to release her A & M LP. It was very good but I read she refused to tour to support it. She may have had the talent but she must have lacked the drive to succeed in show business. Very curious as to why she didn't record solo at Motown. Mary Wilson[[Red Hot) & Scherrie Payne[[Fly) both had a solo 45 from Motown even when Motown was not doing well and a few years after the group ended. It is a curiosity.
Jim - There was never any danger of Jean being offered a solo deal at Motown. She was thoroughly disillusioned with the music business. her relationship with Mary had gone from cordial at best to downright hostile. Berry Gordy had not spoken to her in months, promises made to her had not been fulfilled and all she wanted to do was move out of the limelight. When she returned to record her solo album for A&M she quickly realised she had made a mistake and refused to go out' on the road to promote what was an excellent album. It was far stronger than Marys effort and even Scherrie and Susaye's. It is such a pity that it turned out that way but we do have some excellent music to remeber her by and we can all hope we eventually get the lost and found cd that would be welcomed by many people on this forum.

[Bluebrock]

Jim - There was never any danger of Jean being offered a solo deal at Motown. She was thoroughly disillusioned with the music business. her relationship with Mary had gone from cordial at best to downright hostile. Berry Gordy had not spoken to her in months, promises made to her had not been fulfilled and all she wanted to do was move out of the limelight. When she returned to record her solo album for A&M she quickly realised she had made a mistake and refused to go out' on the road to promote what was an excellent album. It was far stronger than Marys effort and even Scherrie and Susaye's. It is such a pity that it turned out that way but we do have some excellent music to remeber her by and we can all hope we eventually get the lost and found cd that would be welcomed by many people on this forum.
Sorry folks - i meant to say she refused to promote her solo album, not record it. Apologies for that. Put it down to a Christmas hangover!!

[Bokiluis]

ok.. but from a technical point, the Supremes name, minus Jean, had a 7th UK Top 10 in the 1970's, when the original "Baby Love" was re issued as a single,to promote a "Greatest Hits" album, and the re issued single peaked at #12 in August of 1974..Merry Christmas!!

What was always perplexing, save for "Right On" peaking at #25 [[or was it #20), The Supremes '70s had difficulty selling albums. For me personally, at least 5 of their albums were quite good. Despite many fans calling " written and produced by Jim Webb", Jean Terrell and the Mormon Tabernacle Choir, it remains a personal favorite. So as far as quality material, I think Motown gave them great songs. Sometimes you have consider that the public just wasn't interested.
Save for The Supremes [[original)/Diana Ross & The Supremes, the other Motown female groups just couldn't sell albums...despite the quality. And, of course, you make a lot more money from album sales.

[jim aka jtigre99]

Well, Jean is an excellent vocalist. It is show business so one has to deal with the business aspect, as well. It must not have been for her even though she sings very well. Mary seems to know that you have to promote yourself and your product, even if it is something you may not want to do. I guess she saw that A & M was run similar to Motown and decided against promoting her music. Jean seemed to be very sharp, so I am surprised she didn't know what to expect replacing Diana Ross, public and media scrutiny, the record company. I am surprised that she didn't get along with Mary and equally surprised she came back and sang with the FLOs singing older songs that she never really did in the 1970's. I am sure all the singers have artistic temperament but surprised in Jean. I remember reading something that Jean said to Mary it was OK for her to play along with what the record company asked but not for her.I was happy to have Jean, Mary & Partners along with the at their best LP during 1978-9 even though it was not their best work, especially Mary.I think had her Gus Dudgeon LP materialized, she would have hit.

[marv2]

What was always perplexing, save for "Right On" peaking at #25 [[or was it #20), The Supremes '70s had difficulty selling albums. For me personally, at least 5 of their albums were quite good. Despite many fans calling " written and produced by Jim Webb", Jean Terrell and the Mormon Tabernacle Choir, it remains a personal favorite. So as far as quality material, I think Motown gave them great songs. Sometimes you have consider that the public just wasn't interested.
Save for The Supremes [[original)/Diana Ross & The Supremes, the other Motown female groups just couldn't sell albums...despite the quality. And, of course, you make a lot more money from album sales.

Nah that's bullshit, stop it! It had nothing to do with the public not being interested and everything to do with the availability of product! I remember after each debut of a Supremes new record in the 60s, you could find it in all the stores the next day or that same week. The Supremes performed "Bad Weather" for example on television several times and it could not be found in stores in Ohio and Michigan that next day, that next week or the next month! I finally found it in 1975 , 2 whole years after it's release. Motown was no longer supporting the Supremes at that time.

[Bluebrock]

What was always perplexing, save for "Right On" peaking at #25 [[or was it #20), The Supremes '70s had difficulty selling albums. For me personally, at least 5 of their albums were quite good. Despite many fans calling " written and produced by Jim Webb", Jean Terrell and the Mormon Tabernacle Choir, it remains a personal favorite. So as far as quality material, I think Motown gave them great songs. Sometimes you have consider that the public just wasn't interested.
Save for The Supremes [[original)/Diana Ross & The Supremes, the other Motown female groups just couldn't sell albums...despite the quality. And, of course, you make a lot more money from album sales.
I agree the quality was there for the first 3 Jean led albums. If Motown had wanted to kill the Supremes at that point they wouldn't have given them such strong material. The quality of songs did plummet thereafter in my opinion. I know some of you disagree with me on that and of course that is your right, but after "touch" it was all downhill in my opinion. Jean was not happy with the material she was given to sing at this point and with her being at loggerheads with Mary she decided to cut her losses and quit. It is true to say the group were still visible on US TV.
Marv claims he was unable to purchase "bad weather". I am not in a position to disagree with on that because i wasn't there, but if true it all points to Motown failing to meet supply with demand.
They did make a huge promotion push with "high energy" a few years later but that was only partially successful . It would appear too little too late.

[marv2]

I agree the quality was there for the first 3 Jean led albums. If Motown had wanted to kill the Supremes at that point they wouldn't have given them such strong material. The quality of songs did plummet thereafter in my opinion. I know some of you disagree with me on that and of course that is your right, but after "touch" it was all downhill in my opinion. Jean was not happy with the material she was given to sing at this point and with her being at loggerheads with Mary she decided to cut her losses and quit. It is true to say the group were still visible on US TV.
Marv claims he was unable to purchase "bad weather". I am not in a position to disagree with on that because i wasn't there, but if true it all points to Motown failing to meet supply with demand.
They did make a huge promotion push with "high energy" a few years later but that was only partially successful . It would appear too little too late.

You don't have to agree or disagree because what I said and the inability to find the single "Bad Weather" is a fact! There was someone in NYC at the time that said they found it in a hardware store. That NEVER was the case with Supremes releases in the 60s. The material they recorded in the 70s was superb and in many cases better than what they were doing in the 60s.
!

[milven]

Nah that's bullshit, stop it! It had nothing to do with the public not being interested and everything to do with the availability of product! I remember after each debut of a Supremes new record in the 60s, you could find it in all the stores the next day or that same week. The Supremes performed "Bad Weather" for example on television several times and it could not be found in stores in Ohio and Michigan that next day, that next week or the next month! I finally found it in 1975 , 2 whole years after it's release. Motown was no longer supporting the Supremes at that time.

I believe you, but I think you are blaming Motown for not making Bad Weather available. It was available and in distribution throughout the country with indie distributors. Alpha Distributors in NYC had it and it was up to the store buyers to have enough product in their store. Some of these store buyers are conservative and if an artists last record did not sell and had to be returned, then the buyer bought very few of the next release.

Locally, in my area, Bad Weather was sold to dee-jays as a disco record and they bought two at a time to extend them.

As far as getting the song played on radio, I honestly have to say that I don't remember hearing it that much. But the Supremes fan club headed by Carl [[who later transformed it into Mary's fan club) had many of the fans calling in requests for the song.

I can honestly say that I never had any trouble getting any of the Supremes albums or singles.

I also cant understand why a for profit company such as Motown, would spend a huge amount of money getting a song written, produced and recorded and then not try to get that expense recouped by promoting the record in every possible way. It just not sound very wise to deliberately try to bury the record.

If Berry truly hated the group or no longer had a use for them, he could have just released the group and use the money he saved recorded and producing them to promote a group or artist that he liked.

[marv2]

I agree the quality was there for the first 3 Jean led albums. If Motown had wanted to kill the Supremes at that point they wouldn't have given them such strong material. The quality of songs did plummet thereafter in my opinion. I know some of you disagree with me on that and of course that is your right, but after "touch" it was all downhill in my opinion. Jean was not happy with the material she was given to sing at this point and with her being at loggerheads with Mary she decided to cut her losses and quit. It is true to say the group were still visible on US TV.
Marv claims he was unable to purchase "bad weather". I am not in a position to disagree with on that because i wasn't there, but if true it all points to Motown failing to meet supply with demand.
They did make a huge promotion push with "high energy" a few years later but that was only partially successful . It would appear too little too late.


Regarding this mythical "huge promotional push" for High Energy. Scherrie said that she was at a radio station that had been called by a Motown rep and told to stop playing "I'm Gonna Let My Heart Do the Walking" and play Diana Ross instead. That is what Scherrie Payne said. I believe her.

[marv2]

If you want to get an idea of the games Motown were playing with it's artists in the 70s, take some time and listen to this interview with Bubba Knight. He was there and he knows! It is a long one so, when have time to listen and learn, please do so and stop making these comments that the public were just not interested anymore.......


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6chkWmviKs

[Bluebrock]

Regarding this mythical "huge promotional push" for High Energy. Scherrie said that she was at a radio station that had been called by a Motown rep and told to stop playing "I'm Gonna Let My Heart Do the Walking" and play Diana Ross instead. That is what Scherrie Payne said. I believe her.
I'm not looking to fall out with you but it is a fact that Motown UK gave High Energy" lots of advertising space in the music publications. It would be very strange to spend such vasts amounts of money and then deliberately try to kill the product. Where is the financial sense in that?
My colleague at Motown UK visited the US office several times a year and he told me that Motown spent bucketloads of money on promoting High Inergy in the US. This is of course going slightly off topic. This is a Jean Terrell thread, but i was told that Motown execs were thoroughly fed up with Jean and Mary's constant fueding which possibly explains why Motown may have given up on them? Once Jean had gone he said they were happy to get behind the group again.

[marv2]

I'm not looking to fall out with you but it is a fact that Motown UK gave High Energy" lots of advertising space in the music publications. It would be very strange to spend such vasts amounts of money and then deliberately try to kill the product. Where is the financial sense in that?
My colleague at Motown UK visited the US office several times a year and he told me that Motown spent bucketloads of money on promoting High Inergy in the US. This is of course going slightly off topic. This is a Jean Terrell thread, but i was told that Motown execs were thoroughly fed up with Jean and Mary's constant fueding which possibly explains why Motown may have given up on them? Once Jean had gone he said they were happy to get behind the group again.


You're friend is mistaken. They did not spend bucket loads of money promoting High Energy in the States and I believe what Scherrie said.

[TheMotownManiac]

The 70's Supremes suffered from severe personnel changes that made it very hard to love the group. Album purchases were big deals and without Ross' familiar face on the cover, it was hard to "know" The Supremes. I think the first two are glorious albums but they were strangers on the covers. Everyone knows the strength of an act is measured by album and ticket sales because that is where the investment is. At Kreske's in Carlinville, IL, singles were 75 cents and we bought the song if we loved it. We bought the album if we loved the group and that didn't happen with The 70s groupings. On another board they were talking about how hit and miss both The Supremes and Ross solo were and it's true but Ross' albums sold better.
What was always perplexing, save for "Right On" peaking at #25 [[or was it #20), The Supremes '70s had difficulty selling albums. For me personally, at least 5 of their albums were quite good. Despite many fans calling " written and produced by Jim Webb", Jean Terrell and the Mormon Tabernacle Choir, it remains a personal favorite. So as far as quality material, I think Motown gave them great songs. Sometimes you have consider that the public just wasn't interested.
Save for The Supremes [[original)/Diana Ross & The Supremes, the other Motown female groups just couldn't sell albums...despite the quality. And, of course, you make a lot more money from album sales.

[marv2]

I believe you, but I think you are blaming Motown for not making Bad Weather available. It was available and in distribution throughout the country with indie distributors. Alpha Distributors in NYC had it and it was up to the store buyers to have enough product in their store. Some of these store buyers are conservative and if an artists last record did not sell and had to be returned, then the buyer bought very few of the next release.

Locally, in my area, Bad Weather was sold to dee-jays as a disco record and they bought two at a time to extend them.

As far as getting the song played on radio, I honestly have to say that I don't remember hearing it that much. But the Supremes fan club headed by Carl [[who later transformed it into Mary's fan club) had many of the fans calling in requests for the song.

I can honestly say that I never had any trouble getting any of the Supremes albums or singles.

I also cant understand why a for profit company such as Motown, would spend a huge amount of money getting a song written, produced and recorded and then not try to get that expense recouped by promoting the record in every possible way. It just not sound very wise to deliberately try to bury the record.

If Berry truly hated the group or no longer had a use for them, he could have just released the group and use the money he saved recorded and producing them to promote a group or artist that he liked.

It was not played on the radio and for clarification, Carl was not the fan club president at that time in 1973. It was Robert [[can't remember his last name at the moment) and it was ran out of New York.

[TheMotownManiac]

Records are in stores if the individual buyer buys them. Bad Weather came months after several failures in a row and it took months until Bad Weather even charted - for one week. Stores don't want to order singles they would get stuck with, so they would wait until they had demand. There was always demand for Supremes singles from WDOLG until the Bad Weather era. Our local store only ordered The Billboard Top 50 unless it was a hot group like DR&TS, The Beatles, J5, Carpenters. After getting stuck with copies of Automatically Sunshine, YWSSL, IGIMTM, so they would wait until Bad Weather became a hit and then order it. That's fairly standard for record stores. They were allowed to return a small percentage on singles that later became 3/$1.00 cut-outs at KMart or Newberry's.
It was the same for Sorry Doesn't Always Make it Right. We had to drive to St Louis to buy it and the only store that had it was in the hood.
Nah that's bullshit, stop it! It had nothing to do with the public not being interested and everything to do with the availability of product! I remember after each debut of a Supremes new record in the 60s, you could find it in all the stores the next day or that same week. The Supremes performed "Bad Weather" for example on television several times and it could not be found in stores in Ohio and Michigan that next day, that next week or the next month! I finally found it in 1975 , 2 whole years after it's release. Motown was no longer supporting the Supremes at that time.

[luke]

I didn't even know the Supremes had a new album out when I stumbled on the he's my man album In a local record store. Diana Ross caused a lot of trouble in the group but Motown didn't stop supporting them then. Motown blew New Ways by that title and the silly pics. If it had been called Stoned Love with the the back cover pic on front it would have sold many more as Mary has said . Motown/BG just did not want the Supremes to eclipse Diana. Look how Florence was moved to background. Why should another replacement be any different?

[Bluebrock]

You're friend is mistaken. They did not spend bucket loads of money promoting High Energy in the States and I believe what Scherrie said.
I cannot honestly answer that. I can only pass on what was told to me but why would Motown spend so much money on such a strong product and then abandon it? It was one of the finest Supremes albums of any era even if in my opinion the real Supremes had kind of died once Jean left. Maybe it was a case of too many personnel changes in too short space a time.
Getting back on topic i think we have covered the reasons why Jean was not offered a solo deal at Motown.

[jobucats]

What was always perplexing, save for "Right On" peaking at #25 [[or was it #20), The Supremes '70s had difficulty selling albums. For me personally, at least 5 of their albums were quite good. Despite many fans calling " written and produced by Jim Webb", Jean Terrell and the Mormon Tabernacle Choir, it remains a personal favorite. So as far as quality material, I think Motown gave them great songs. Sometimes you have consider that the public just wasn't interested.
Save for The Supremes [[original)/Diana Ross & The Supremes, the other Motown female groups just couldn't sell albums...despite the quality. And, of course, you make a lot more money from album sales.

BakIius, I just got off the floor from laughing at your reference to Jean and the Mormon Tabernacle Choir's Jim Webb album. You are spot on!!!! All jokes aside, it is also a favorite of mine. I consider it a middle of the road classic from the group. Thanks again for the laugh.

[marv2]

I didn't even know the Supremes had a new album out when I stumbled on the he's my man album In a local record store. Diana Ross caused a lot of trouble in the group but Motown didn't stop supporting them then. Motown blew New Ways by that title and the silly pics. If it had been called Stoned Love with the the back cover pic on front it would have sold many more as Mary has said . Motown/BG just did not want the Supremes to eclipse Diana. Look how Florence was moved to background. Why should another replacement be any different?

I'm glad you said that because seems that others are afraid to say it! Mary and the ladies have said it!

[marv2]

I cannot honestly answer that. I can only pass on what was told to me but why would Motown spend so much money on such a strong product and then abandon it? It was one of the finest Supremes albums of any era even if in my opinion the real Supremes had kind of died once Jean left. Maybe it was a case of too many personnel changes in too short space a time.
Getting back on topic i think we have covered the reasons why Jean was not offered a solo deal at Motown.


Why did they record whole albums on artists only to shelve them later? The artists had to bare the brunt of all the costs associated with the recording at Motown! There are no mysteries here.

The REAL Supremes didn't die as long as Mary Wilson was there.

[luke]

Lol. It's not complicated Mary and flo shoved aside. Group name changed. Ross does not like to share spotlight . She was BGs lover. 70s Supremes sound even better... Start to make it even bigger .. Then....Duh??? Just the facts...

[marv2]

Lol. It's not complicated Mary and flo shoved aside. Group name changed. Ross does not like to share spotlight . She was BGs lover. 70s Supremes sound even better... Start to make it even bigger .. Then....Duh??? Just the facts...

Now you know that! Come on Luke ......
PREACH! LOL!!!

[luke]

Lol. Thanks Marv...It's so easy to complicate and obfuscate[[ I think that's the right word lol). Not trash talking. Just the facts. And then with what Scehrrie said ...duh!

[Bluebrock]

Why did they record whole albums on artists only to shelve them later? The artists had to bare the brunt of all the costs associated with the recording at Motown! There are no mysteries here.

The REAL Supremes didn't die as long as Mary Wilson was there.
That is a matter of opinion. Despite looking and sounding great the latter day line up was no longer the Supremes in my opinion. No longer recognisable as such they should have re-named themselves as the new Supremes. Once again just my opinion which i am entitled to so please don't bite my head off because i have the audacity to disagree with you. Differing opinions debated in a mature and dignified manner is what this forum is all about.

[marv2]

Lol. Thanks Marv...It's so easy to complicate and obfuscate[[ I think that's the right word lol). Not trash talking. Just the facts. And then with what Scehrrie said ...duh!

Obfuscate? Well get on down wit yo bad self Luke! LOL!!! Yeah, seriously this is not science. Scherrie has no reason to lie, nor does Mary or Jean Terrell and they all said the same thing.

[midnightman]

@marv2, man I learned a LOT from that Bubba interview! Just wished the Supremes had learned more instead of having everything leased to them, that's what helped to kill their career though they continued to have hits until the mid-1970s.

[midnightman]

I didn't even know the Supremes had a new album out when I stumbled on the he's my man album In a local record store. Diana Ross caused a lot of trouble in the group but Motown didn't stop supporting them then. Motown blew New Ways by that title and the silly pics. If it had been called Stoned Love with the the back cover pic on front it would have sold many more as Mary has said . Motown/BG just did not want the Supremes to eclipse Diana. Look how Florence was moved to background. Why should another replacement be any different?

Being a Diana Ross fan, I can say that you are RIGHT. Motown did everything they could do to stop the Supremes [[and everyone else) from taking away from Diana Ross. That was why Berry created all those labels so attention could be given but not to the degree that Diana got because she was on the "main label" rather than a subsidiary like Tamla, Gordy or Soul. Motown definitely gave someone preferential treatment. It's not a slight against Diana, that's just how the company was run by the mid-1970s... they purposely stopped promoting the Supremes after a certain point. I, myself, growing up as a Motown fan had no idea about any Supremes hits after Stoned Love until high school! Lol

[Jimi LaLumia]

Tamla existed before The Supremes ever came to Motown, and the Gordy label was around when they were the no hit Supremes.. that's not the reason for the dfifferent labels, everyone knows Gordy couldn't chart too many records at radio on just one label that story is ridiculous as are the never ending conspiracy stories, get over it people, it's ancient history, it's Time To Move On! sheesh..

[marv2]

@marv2, man I learned a LOT from that Bubba interview! Just wished the Supremes had learned more instead of having everything leased to them, that's what helped to kill their career though they continued to have hits until the mid-1970s.

Yes so did I. Too often we overlook some of the others that were there and having the same experiences as groups like the Supremes. Bubba is a wealth of knowledge as a show business veteran and a Motown Alumni. I couldn't believe they wanted Gladys and the Pips to join Motown "in debt"? I had never heard of that practice before. Amazing.........

[marv2]

Tamla existed before The Supremes ever came to Motown, and the Gordy label was around when they were the no hit Supremes.. that's not the reason for the dfifferent labels, everyone knows Gordy couldn't chart too many records at radio on just one label that story is ridiculous as are the never ending conspiracy stories, get over it people, it's ancient history, it's Time To Move On! sheesh..

Jimi, Bubba Knight confirms it. The story about the reason behind the various labels at Motown in the interview I posted.

[Jimi LaLumia]

well, the Tamla label existed before the Motown label, that is a matter of historical fact..and in the 70's, Tamla became THE label, bolstered by the massive albums success of Marvin Gaye and Stevie Wonder as well as Smokey's groundbreaking efforts.. R&B fans of the 70's bought more Tamla product than they did with the actual Motown label.. that is also a matter of statistical fact.. not to take anything away from Bubba, but sometimes we have to let facts speak for themselves..Happy New Year, Marv..

[marv2]

well, the Tamla label existed before the Motown label, that is a matter of historical fact..and in the 70's, Tamla became THE label, bolstered by the massive albums success of Marvin Gaye and Stevie Wonder as well as Smokey's groundbreaking efforts.. R&B fans of the 70's bought more Tamla product than they did with the actual Motown label.. that is also a matter of statistical fact.. not to take anything away from Bubba, but sometimes we have to let facts speak for themselves..Happy New Year, Marv..

Don't forget that Eddie Kendricks was also on Tamla. Same to you! Have a Happy & Prosperous New Year!

[midnightman]

That's true, Jimi.

[Jimi LaLumia]

In the Bubba interview he actually says what I said.. Gordy knew that radio would only chart a certain amount of slots to Tamla at the beginning, so he then created the Gordy, Motown, and Soul divisions...actually, nothing was shaking on the Motown label until Mary Wells came along..and Bubba also thanks Gordy for putting Gladys And The Pips 'on the map'.. I was a teenager in the late 60's, and I had honestly never heard of them until "Grapevine' and the groovy followup "The End Of Our Road" which should have been bigger than it was.. Friendship Train, Neither One Of Us, Nitty Gritty, If I Were Your Woman, etc really provided a great legacy for the group at pop radio ; if they had gone to Jerry Butler's label instead of Motown, who knows what might have happened to them? Their Motown success was the springboard to Buddah, etc...HAPPY NEW YEAR!

[Bokiluis]

Is it necessary to attack someone for stating their point of view? Unfortunately, The Supremes didn't have a great record of selling albums. The charts bare that fact out. Retailers became apprehensive about carrying titles that they have track records of not selling. They only have a certain amount of dollars to invest in inventory.
That said, unless you lived in secondary or tertiary markets, I cannot imagine that it was difficult to find their albums. Of course, if they only carried 4-5 copies, then it is likely that they soldout. Major retailers like Musicland/Sam Goodys were notorious for carrying limited inventory on certain titles. Whereas retailers like Tower, were more likely to have inventory or at least the flexibility of ordering it in quickly if there was demand. The law of supply and demand.
Only someone with poor business acumen would fail to carry something that they had a demand for. If you tended to shop in smaller indie stores, a good retailer could quickly get titles from their local one stop distributors. Larger retailers refilled stock on a cycle.
A good label sales rep also was responsible for sharing information for a retailer to want to carry [[e.g. Radio play, upcoming television appearances and/or concerts).
"Bad Weather" followed "Mary, Sherrie, and Susaye" which had not done that well. Club play was/is hard to quantify.
Living in San Francisco, retailers like Tower, The Gramaphone & Leopolds always had The Supremes albums on street date. I can only speak for the places I shopped.
So unless you surveyed inventory in most markets around the country, how can one ever speak to every market not having stock.
Add in the fact that Motown wasn't the hit factory it was in the 60s, by 1977, Motown's track record just wasn't the same, unfortunately.
Sorry that someone has difficulty hearing facts and opinions that differs from their own.....ces't la vie.

[detmotownguy]

Regarding this mythical "huge promotional push" for High Energy. Scherrie said that she was at a radio station that had been called by a Motown rep and told to stop playing "I'm Gonna Let My Heart Do the Walking" and play Diana Ross instead. That is what Scherrie Payne said. I believe her.

I thought there was a recent vid clip here where Scherrie came right out and said the Sups were not being promoted. It might have been in the last 6 months. I cannot believe she would lie about that. And when there were fans telling the Sups that they cannot find the product, one has to wonder.

[thommg]

"Bad Weather" followed "Mary, Sherrie, and Susaye" which had not done that well.

Bad Weather was waaaaaay before Mary, Scherrie & Susaye, like years before. Perhaps you meant Produced & Arranged by Jimmy Webb?

I agree that retailers will order what will sell. Funny, when the 70's Anthology came out on cd I went to Virgin Records in Times Square to get a copy. I had to ask the guy if they had it. He said, "I just put some out!" He had to go into the back and pull the rest of the copies they had. He said they never expected it to sell so well so they didn't order a lot of copies.

[Bluebrock]

I thought there was a recent vid clip here where Scherrie came right out and said the Sups were not being promoted. It might have been in the last 6 months. I cannot believe she would lie about that. And when there were fans telling the Sups that they cannot find the product, one has to wonder.
There is no reason to disbelieve Scherrie on this. As i said previously Motown UK gave a big promotional push on "high energy" but it all fell on deaf ears. IGLMHDTW did not gain significant airplay due to Mary's ongoing fued with the BBC. It was a superb album that deserved to succeed. By the time "Mary, Scherrie and Susaye" came out Motown UK had lost interest and did not even release a single until the album had been out for a while. I presume Motown USA also gave scant attention to it.
So why did the Motown give up on the Supremes? Diana was hot at the time and they were no competition to her so there must have been another reason?

[midnightman]

I thought there was a recent vid clip here where Scherrie came right out and said the Sups were not being promoted. It might have been in the last 6 months. I cannot believe she would lie about that. And when there were fans telling the Sups that they cannot find the product, one has to wonder.

This flew by some people's heads here. The Supremes weren't given proper promotion after 1970.

[Bluebrock]

Bad Weather was waaaaaay before Mary, Scherrie & Susaye, like years before. Perhaps you meant Produced & Arranged by Jimmy Webb?

I agree that retailers will order what will sell. Funny, when the 70's Anthology came out on cd I went to Virgin Records in Times Square to get a copy. I had to ask the guy if they had it. He said, "I just put some out!" He had to go into the back and pull the rest of the copies they had. He said they never expected it to sell so well so they didn't order a lot of copies.
I think that is what he meant too!!

[Bluebrock]

Bad Weather was waaaaaay before Mary, Scherrie & Susaye, like years before. Perhaps you meant Produced & Arranged by Jimmy Webb?

I agree that retailers will order what will sell. Funny, when the 70's Anthology came out on cd I went to Virgin Records in Times Square to get a copy. I had to ask the guy if they had it. He said, "I just put some out!" He had to go into the back and pull the rest of the copies they had. He said they never expected it to sell so well so they didn't order a lot of copies.
My local independent record store [[now sadly demised) only ordered 1 copy which i bought on the day of release. He ordered another which i promptly bought for a friend, and each time he re-ordered it someone bought it.
Not bad for a rural area not especially close to a City. He told me he didn't really expect it to sell but he had to keep re-ordering it.
On the other hand a now defunkt chain store in the nearest City to me did not even stock it which i found rather dismaying.

[marv2]

There is no reason to disbelieve Scherrie on this. As i said previously Motown UK gave a big promotional push on "high energy" but it all fell on deaf ears. IGLMHDTW did not gain significant airplay due to Mary's ongoing fued with the BBC. It was a superb album that deserved to succeed. By the time "Mary, Scherrie and Susaye" came out Motown UK had lost interest and did not even release a single until the album had been out for a while. I presume Motown USA also gave scant attention to it.
So why did the Motown give up on the Supremes? Diana was hot at the time and they were no competition to her so there must have been another reason?

Yeah, she wanted to use them or their legacy as a tribute part in her act, but she could do that convincingly when the Supremes were still out there putting out records and doing concerts all over the place!

[marv2]

My local independent record store [[now sadly demised) only ordered 1 copy which i bought on the day of release. He ordered another which i promptly bought for a friend, and each time he re-ordered it someone bought it.
Not bad for a rural area not especially close to a City. He told me he didn't really expect it to sell but he had to keep re-ordering it.
On the other hand a now defunkt chain store in the nearest City to me did not even stock it which i found rather dismaying.

I never lived in any rural areas, only cities and you could not find some of their releases in stores of any type.

[marv2]

This flew by some people's heads here. The Supremes weren't given proper promotion after 1970.

It did not fly over mine or any of the Supremes heads......hehehehehehehehe!

[marybrewster]

Can someone shed some light on the Mary, Lynda, Cindy lineup? I know they played a gig in Hawaii [[and maybe a gig at the Copa?), but I don't recall the circumstances of Jean not being there. Had she already left the Supremes, and Cindy was brought in? Was there ever talk of this being a permanent line-up? Or was Jean just ill, and Cindy was filling in?

[marybrewster]

Here's another thought: after Jean left the Supremes, it was about 5 years until she released her solo album. I've read after it was recorded, Jean did little to promote it, perhaps due to "religious" reasons. Does anyone know this as fact? What would have been sacrilegious? Furthermore, it was a few years later that Jean "returned" to the Supremes, this time with Lynda and Scherrie. What changed in that amount of time that she would want to record and tour again? I've always thought her tenure with the FLOs was a shadow of the performer that Jean was capable of being. She comes across cheesy; almost a bit mocking. Like she wanted to be the there, but didn't. Was it about money?

[marv2]

Can someone shed some light on the Mary, Lynda, Cindy lineup? I know they played a gig in Hawaii [[and maybe a gig at the Copa?), but I don't recall the circumstances of Jean not being there. Had she already left the Supremes, and Cindy was brought in? Was there ever talk of this being a permanent line-up? Or was Jean just ill, and Cindy was filling in?

Jean had become "ill".....had one of her "sick attacks" and the show had to go on so they called Cindy who was pregnant to round out the trio for a couple of shows. That is all.

[marv2]

Here's another thought: after Jean left the Supremes, it was about 5 years until she released her solo album. I've read after it was recorded, Jean did little to promote it, perhaps due to "religious" reasons. Does anyone know this as fact? What would have been sacrilegious? Furthermore, it was a few years later that Jean "returned" to the Supremes, this time with Lynda and Scherrie. What changed in that amount of time that she would want to record and tour again? I've always thought her tenure with the FLOs was a shadow of the performer that Jean was capable of being. She comes across cheesy; almost a bit mocking. Like she wanted to be the there, but didn't. Was it about money?

I don't know for sure,but A&M [[Herb Alpert's company) may have wanted to infuse some "disco" into Jean's act as it was the most popular music out at that time and she did not want to do that.

As far as the FLO's , it was about making money.

[Bluebrock]

Here's another thought: after Jean left the Supremes, it was about 5 years until she released her solo album. I've read after it was recorded, Jean did little to promote it, perhaps due to "religious" reasons. Does anyone know this as fact? What would have been sacrilegious? Furthermore, it was a few years later that Jean "returned" to the Supremes, this time with Lynda and Scherrie. What changed in that amount of time that she would want to record and tour again? I've always thought her tenure with the FLOs was a shadow of the performer that Jean was capable of being. She comes across cheesy; almost a bit mocking. Like she wanted to be the there, but didn't. Was it about money?
By the time the FLOS were formed Jean had been out of the business for quite some time. I don't know what prompted her to come out of retirement - money maybe, but Jean never appeared to be motivated by money. Her religious beliefs did cause friction with Mary, but i am not sure if that had anything to do with her departing the FLOS.

[Bluebrock]

Jean had become "ill".....had one of her "sick attacks" and the show had to go on so they called Cindy who was pregnant to round out the trio for a couple of shows. That is all.
Yes, Jean could be difficult but it was by no means on her own. Each Supreme was strong minded and wanted their own way. Mary as the original member naturally saw herself as the leader which of course she was, but without Jean the group would have folded long before they did, and Jean knew that only too well. Cindy felt torn between loyalty to Mary and also realising just how important Jean was to the group. When Lynda joined she took Jean's side which just made the situation worse. With the hits drying up and Motown losing interest it is a wonder Jean stayed as long as she did.

[marv2]

By the time the FLOS were formed Jean had been out of the business for quite some time. I don't know what prompted her to come out of retirement - money maybe, but Jean never appeared to be motivated by money. Her religious beliefs did cause friction with Mary, but i am not sure if that had anything to do with her departing the FLOS.

She left the Flo's because of Lynda and whoever thought it was a good idea to piss Mary Wilson off by releasing CD's by "The Supremes" which were bogus as they were not the Supremes, they were "The FLOS". Jean was not having any of that.

[marv2]

Yes, Jean could be difficult but it was by no means on her own. Each Supreme was strong minded and wanted their own way. Mary as the original member naturally saw herself as the leader which of course she was, but without Jean the group would have folded long before they did, and Jean knew that only too well. Cindy felt torn between loyalty to Mary and also realising just how important Jean was to the group. When Lynda joined she took Jean's side which just made the situation worse. With the hits drying up and Motown losing interest it is a wonder Jean stayed as long as she did.

What I posted was in response to MaryBrewster's question and it is factual and true!

[Bluebrock]

She left the Flo's because of Lynda and whoever thought it was a good idea piss Mary Wilson off by releasing CD's by "The Supremes" which were bogus as they were not the Supremes, they were "The FLOS".
I totally agree with you on that one .

[marybrewster]

I totally agree with you on that one .

I have seen "Supremes" CD's with Mary, Scherrie and Susaye on the cover, and it's an actual FLOs CD. That would piss me off if I were Mary, or even Susaye.

[Roberta75]

Here's another thought: after Jean left the Supremes, it was about 5 years until she released her solo album. I've read after it was recorded, Jean did little to promote it, perhaps due to "religious" reasons. Does anyone know this as fact? What would have been sacrilegious? Furthermore, it was a few years later that Jean "returned" to the Supremes, this time with Lynda and Scherrie. What changed in that amount of time that she would want to record and tour again? I've always thought her tenure with the FLOs was a shadow of the performer that Jean was capable of being. She comes across cheesy; almost a bit mocking. Like she wanted to be the there, but didn't. Was it about money?

Isnt everything about money Marybrewster. Jean came back to the FLOS for money and Mary Wilson appeared in a bill in the UK with fake thirty something years old Drifters and Diane Ross performed at Naomi Cambells boyfriends birthday in India for a million dollars. Everyone motivated by money really including politicianns and some televangelistts like Joel oilsteen.

Ive also been told that Jean had a real big issue with Gay fans because of her Jehovah witness beliefs which made me real dissapointed with her? Sad but apparently true.

happy new year dear.

yours, with every good wish.

Roberta

[marv2]

I have seen "Supremes" CD's with Mary, Scherrie and Susaye on the cover, and it's an actual FLOs CD. That would piss me off if I were Mary, or even Susaye.

Exactly! In the 90s I saw CD's that had pictures of Diana Ross, Mary Wilson and Florence Ballard on the cover. When you played it, it was a grouping of the FLOS.

[marv2]

Isnt everything about money Marybrewster. Jean came back to the FLOS for money and Mary Wilson appeared in a bill in the UK with fake thirty something years old Drifters and Diane Ross performed at Naomi Cambells boyfriends birthday in India for a million dollars. Everyone motivated by money really including politicianns and some televangelistts like Joel oilsteen.

Ive also been told that Jean had a real big issue with Gay fans because of her Jehovah witness beliefs which made me real dissapointed with her? Sad but apparently true.

happy new year dear.

yours, with every good wish.

Roberta

Not true! Jean Terrell never returned to the FLOS. She performed two shows with them in 1996 to raise funds for their legal defense against legal action brought by Mary Wilson. Mary Wilson did not want to sue Jean Terrell but was forced to include her in a lawsuit against "The FLOS". Jean did not want and had not bargain for any type of fights with Mary Wilson when she joined the FLOS originally and dropped out when she saw where things were heading. Despite what may have went down in the past, Jean Terrell and Mary Wilson were friends. I don't know where the gay fan stuff comes into this discussion so I cannot comment on that Roberta.

Jean had attitude, but she also had integrity, which is what drove her away from the FLOS and the business in general.

[TheMotownManiac]

The Supremes were never making it bigger than Diana. That's a myth Mary started but is not really true. I used to believe it, but now with everything on the net, the truth is out there. Certain, specific facts can be manipulated to look the way Mary suggested, but on Record World and Cash Box which were based solely on sales and not airplay [[like Billboard) the story is different and sales is where the labels were concentrating. Both acts did very well that first year and both slipped the next, however The Supremes had a hit and Diana didn't. Diana's albums always did significantly better even though they didn't have as many familiar songs. The Supremes were all over TV. The point is one act was not bigger than the other by any sizable margin until Lady sings The Blues. Even then, and by then, they were two separate type of acts that weren't even in similar catagories. No one was comparing them. No one cared who was bigger - not even Motown cared. Berry was going to make her a movie star. Very little effort was put into her records until after lady. In spring of '69, DR&TS sold out 16,000 plus at St Louis arena. A year later, both acts were playing teeny Mill Run in Chicago instead with a comic opening. The next time The Supremes came to Mill Run they were promoting Nathan Jones on a split headline bill with Ray Charles.
Motown released 3 "OK" studio albums on Diana - each with a bright spot or two. In the same time that they released 8 "OK - Good" studio albums on The Supremes.
Much has been written about the competitive nature of Diana and Mary during the 60's and it's obvious that Mary felt the need to qualify Diana's success as well as the fate of The 70's Supremes in her favor with excuses such as treachery. I no longer believe it.

[TheMotownManiac]

Isn't that illegal? I'd sue if I were DMF and FLO voices were used.

[midnightman]

It did not fly over mine or any of the Supremes heads......hehehehehehehehe!

Yeah I know. The real Supremes fans know the deal. ;) But others are confused, I think... the Supremes were supposed to be "over" when Diana left. Oops lol

[marv2]

The Supremes were never making it bigger than Diana. That's a myth Mary started but is not really true. I used to believe it, but now with everything on the net, the truth is out there. Certain, specific facts can be manipulated to look the way Mary suggested, but on Record World and Cash Box which were based solely on sales and not airplay [[like Billboard) the story is different and sales is where the labels were concentrating. Both acts did very well that first year and both slipped the next, however The Supremes had a hit and Diana didn't. Diana's albums always did significantly better even though they didn't have as many familiar songs. The Supremes were all over TV. The point is one act was not bigger than the other by any sizable margin until Lady sings The Blues. Even then, and by then, they were two separate type of acts that weren't even in similar catagories. No one was comparing them. No one cared who was bigger - not even Motown cared. Berry was going to make her a movie star. Very little effort was put into her records until after lady. In spring of '69, DR&TS sold out 16,000 plus at St Louis arena. A year later, both acts were playing teeny Mill Run in Chicago instead with a comic opening. The next time The Supremes came to Mill Run they were promoting Nathan Jones on a split headline bill with Ray Charles.
Motown released 3 "OK" studio albums on Diana - each with a bright spot or two. In the same time that they released 8 "OK - Good" studio albums on The Supremes.
Much has been written about the competitive nature of Diana and Mary during the 60's and it's obvious that Mary felt the need to qualify Diana's success as well as the fate of The 70's Supremes in her favor with excuses such as treachery. I no longer believe it.

Not true! The Supremes were scoring more on the charts than Diana Ross in the initial years after their separation.

[midnightman]

The Supremes were never making it bigger than Diana. That's a myth Mary started but is not really true. I used to believe it, but now with everything on the net, the truth is out there. Certain, specific facts can be manipulated to look the way Mary suggested, but on Record World and Cash Box which were based solely on sales and not airplay [[like Billboard) the story is different and sales is where the labels were concentrating. Both acts did very well that first year and both slipped the next, however The Supremes had a hit and Diana didn't. Diana's albums always did significantly better even though they didn't have as many familiar songs. The Supremes were all over TV. The point is one act was not bigger than the other by any sizable margin until Lady sings The Blues. Even then, and by then, they were two separate type of acts that weren't even in similar catagories. No one was comparing them. No one cared who was bigger - not even Motown cared. Berry was going to make her a movie star. Very little effort was put into her records until after lady. In spring of '69, DR&TS sold out 16,000 plus at St Louis arena. A year later, both acts were playing teeny Mill Run in Chicago instead with a comic opening. The next time The Supremes came to Mill Run they were promoting Nathan Jones on a split headline bill with Ray Charles.
Motown released 3 "OK" studio albums on Diana - each with a bright spot or two. In the same time that they released 8 "OK - Good" studio albums on The Supremes.
Much has been written about the competitive nature of Diana and Mary during the 60's and it's obvious that Mary felt the need to qualify Diana's success as well as the fate of The 70's Supremes in her favor with excuses such as treachery. I no longer believe it.

Well to be frank, Motown did diddly squat for many of its female performers after 1970. Martha left, the Marvelettes dissipated, the Supremes were the only real survivors and even then there was difficulty ahead. By 1972, Motown was dominated by two men: Marvin Gaye and Stevie Wonder.

PLUS, the Supremes had more top forty hits than Diana did in the early '70s. Her album sales weren't real stellar either. Only her self titled debut sold a million copies. Her Billie Holiday soundtrack pulled more units but Motown wasn't promoting her albums that much because the attention had went to her TV and film work.

[marv2]

Yeah I know. The real Supremes fans know the deal. ;) But others are confused, I think... the Supremes were supposed to be "over" when Diana left. Oops lol

Yeah, that was the unspoken [[publicly) plan! But the public still wanted them. They still do today.

[daviddh]

anyone know why cindy did not stay with flos???

[daviddh]

didn't Motown really give up on nearly everyone. Steve and smokey wrote they own stuff and Diana managed a hit or two every other year but mostly [[everyone )began jumping ship

[marv2]

anyone know why cindy did not stay with flos???

They had formed the FLOS around the same time as Cindy embarking on a solo career.

[midnightman]

didn't Motown really give up on nearly everyone. Steve and smokey wrote they own stuff and Diana managed a hit or two every other year but mostly [[everyone )began jumping ship

Yeah they did because none of the groups were doing great either after 1972. The Temptations, Jackson 5, etc., faltered. Gladys and them left at the right time, I have to say!

[marv2]

Yeah they did because none of the groups were doing great either after 1972. The Temptations, Jackson 5, etc., faltered. Gladys and them left at the right time, I have to say!

Just before them, the Spinners left.

[midnightman]

Just before them, the Spinners left.

Yep, the Spinners got the heck out of Dodge with the quickness!

[marv2]

Yep, the Spinners got the heck out of Dodge with the quickness!


It was all very sad to me. I remember for a time it seemed like every week when I would open Jet Magazine another of the Motown artists were leaving the company. This went on through to the early 80s when Marvin and Diane left. Heck, even the Miracles left after scoring a #1 million seller with Billy Griffin!

[Bokiluis]

Bad Weather was waaaaaay before Mary, Scherrie & Susaye, like years before. Perhaps you meant Produced & Arranged by Jimmy Webb?

I agree that retailers will order what will sell. Funny, when the 70's Anthology came out on cd I went to Virgin Records in Times Square to get a copy. I had to ask the guy if they had it. He said, "I just put some out!" He had to go into the back and pull the rest of the copies they had. He said they never expected it to sell so well so they didn't order a lot of copies.

My bad. Chalk it up to the early signs of as$heimers��. And you're right, if buyer/clerk wasn't on top of their game.....sometimes they weren't proactive in keeping up inventory. Pre-Soundscan,the singles buyer at Tower Sunset sometimes wouldn't report accurate sales to Billboard if a fan bought multiple copies of the same singles. Of course if it was a favorite act of his, he was notorious for actually doing the opposite. Soundscan certainly helped retailers keep better track of inventory. Lots of games were played by Billboard reporters, pre-Soundscan. For instance, Virgin wanted to insure that Janet Jackson's "Again" to be a #1 single; therefore, they persuaded retailers to sell the CD single for 99cents. This made Billboard change the rules that a single that was sold below the wholesale price, would not be reported. This caused a minor industry scandal.

[Jimi LaLumia]

you don't even want to know the post Soundscan games... I'm saving all THAT for my book.. I was a Billboard reporter pre AND post Soundscan..

[Bokiluis]

Minor scandals were not only endemic to the music business. Often movie ticket sales were switched to reflect what movie a film studio wanted as a priority.
As talented as Jean Terrell was, A&M was never a strong label for black artists. They didn't seem to know how to market her solo album....was it R&B or Pop or both? Therefore that album got lost in the hitherlands.
Berry Gordy made "Where Did Our Love Go" a multi-format priority. Despite "When the Lovelight Shining" peaked at #2/R&B. The single was sent to R&B and Pop stations simultaneously.
Not sure if "Bad Weather" was treated the same. The Supremes were no longer a sure bet at pop radio by its release. And The Supremes releases often performed better at pop radio.
"Please refrain from attacking me for my observations. I remain a Supremes fan through the life of their chart career. Being a chart junkie, this is only my observation and opinion. The last time I checked, we all are entitled to our own opinions".

[Bokiluis]

The Supremes were never making it bigger than Diana. That's a myth Mary started but is not really true. I used to believe it, but now with everything on the net, the truth is out there. Certain, specific facts can be manipulated to look the way Mary suggested, but on Record World and Cash Box which were based solely on sales and not airplay [[like Billboard) the story is different and sales is where the labels were concentrating. Both acts did very well that first year and both slipped the next, however The Supremes had a hit and Diana didn't. Diana's albums always did significantly better even though they didn't have as many familiar songs. The Supremes were all over TV. The point is one act was not bigger than the other by any sizable margin until Lady sings The Blues. Even then, and by then, they were two separate type of acts that weren't even in similar catagories. No one was comparing them. No one cared who was bigger - not even Motown cared. Berry was going to make her a movie star. Very little effort was put into her records until after lady. In spring of '69, DR&TS sold out 16,000 plus at St Louis arena. A year later, both acts were playing teeny Mill Run in Chicago instead with a comic opening. The next time The Supremes came to Mill Run they were promoting Nathan Jones on a split headline bill with Ray Charles.
Motown released 3 "OK" studio albums on Diana - each with a bright spot or two. In the same time that they released 8 "OK - Good" studio albums on The Supremes.
Much has been written about the competitive nature of Diana and Mary during the 60's and it's obvious that Mary felt the need to qualify Diana's success as well as the fate of The 70's Supremes in her favor with excuses such as treachery. I no longer believe it.


Well stated!

[Bokiluis]

you don't even want to know the post Soundscan games... I'm saving all THAT for my book.. I was a Billboard reporter pre AND post Soundscan..

Trust and believe. Having worked for arguably the #1 label of the late 80s and 90s, I had a pretty solid perspective from the manufacturers point of view. Being extremely supportive of the single as a key marketing tool, there was quite a lot to gossip about on Monday and Tuesday's.

"And I did say "arguably" the #1 label based on marketshare. Interscope my beg to differ.....but, once again the numbers told the story".

"Cannot wait to read your book. Please hurry as today's generation has little idea of how essential the music industry before the original Napster came in like a tsunami.
There hasn't been a definitive book released since "#1 with a Bullet"[[?) was released.....and that one left a lot to be desired. [[Though "And Party Everyday", the story of Casablanca was quite entertaining, funny and scandalous).

[luke]

Motown got quite panicky in 1970...well documented. The Supremes were a smash. Sell out performances. Berry had to hand out torn $50 bills to get people to Diana's first solo gig. One writer said basically how would it look for Berry if the center piece for his plans didn't do as well as the group she came from!!

[TheMotownManiac]

I think way too much emphasis is placed on Ross. Flo wasn't moved to the bg, she was in the bg a lot from the beginning. At age 16, The primettes first sides went to Mary & Diana. I agree with their choices. Flo was special but I don't think her leads were anything to worry Diana or Mary. She sang People over a thousand times and not once have I ever heard critics or audiences say they wanted to hear more. Gordy was never into Flo's voice as he wanted a commercial crossover voice, not a big soprano. Flo could outsing many at Motown as far as volume went, but Diana, Mary, Martha, Mary Wells, Kim, Brenda, Wanda and both Gladyses were stronger vocalists. I know it's sacrilege to speak of Flo like this, but, I don't think anyone was afraid of being eclipsed by Flo. There are thousands of singers - better than Flo that never eclipsed Diana who is now a beloved icon even though there are "better" singers. Mary Wilson has had a marvelous career that began with nothing after 1977 - a career Flo never would have had if she lived. If Motown or Diana was afraid of Jean eclipsing her, they wouldn't have her on TV all the time singing her hits. If Gordy wanted The Supremes to die, he'd have given them bad material, a bad act and no TV while sending Up the Ladder, Stoned Love and Nathan to Ross. It doesn't add up. I think BG had every intention of making money off of both acts. I think he was so stricken by Diana that no one posed a threat and, after Lady, no one could have. Aretha, Natalie, Gladys, Donna all had huge careers that did nothing to diminish Ross' . She has her fans.
I didn't even know the Supremes had a new album out when I stumbled on the he's my man album In a local record store. Diana Ross caused a lot of trouble in the group but Motown didn't stop supporting them then. Motown blew New Ways by that title and the silly pics. If it had been called Stoned Love with the the back cover pic on front it would have sold many more as Mary has said . Motown/BG just did not want the Supremes to eclipse Diana. Look how Florence was moved to background. Why should another replacement be any different?

[Roberta75]

Motown got quite panicky in 1970...well documented. The Supremes were a smash. Sell out performances. Berry had to hand out torn $50 bills to get people to Diana's first solo gig. One writer said basically how would it look for Berry if the center piece for his plans didn't do as well as the group she came from!!

It was $20 bills that Berry tore in half my dear and Diane Ross had never looked back from that first solo show. Diane and Mary and Sherrie and Lynda and Susaye are all still putting on shows and all are doing real well but you love to carp on and on and on about cr*p that may or may not have happen darned near 50 years ago smh and lol.

[marv2]

you don't even want to know the post Soundscan games... I'm saving all THAT for my book.. I was a Billboard reporter pre AND post Soundscan..

Give just a small hint, please.........

[marv2]

It was $20 bills that Berry tore in half my dear and Diane Ross had never looked back from that first solo show. Diane and Mary and Sherrie and Lynda and Susaye are all still putting on shows and all are doing real well but you love to carp on and on and on about cr*p that may or may not have happen darned near 50 years ago smh and lol.


FYI Roberta, when you are discussing Motown Records [[the one Berry Gordy Jr. founded) and it's artists, 80% of what will be discussed happened decades ago! If you prefer not to join in the conversations about music, people and events that occurred sometimes nearly 50 years ago, then don't. We are going to continue whether you like it or not. I will not miss you since you contribute little to nothing to these threads.

[marv2]

Motown got quite panicky in 1970...well documented. The Supremes were a smash. Sell out performances. Berry had to hand out torn $50 bills to get people to Diana's first solo gig. One writer said basically how would it look for Berry if the center piece for his plans didn't do as well as the group she came from!!

This is very true. He was desperate after taking such a big gamble with splitting up one of his top acts.

[midnightman]

I don't get this revisionist history: Diana was struggling for much of 1970. That's just a fact. The Supremes were doing way better than her with Jean there. I mean if we're gonna be honest about the situation, let's be honest. I also feel had Motown not made any error in releasing "Stone Love" as "STONED Love", they would've been on Sullivan to promote it... I feel it was much later [[like right around the time Jean left) that the group really struggled with promotion and retail. The music industry is a very funny business and no one makes it out unscathed. I'm sure Jean herself has horror stories about it.

[TheMotownManiac]

It is extremely well documented that all of those labels were created for divergent originations so that it didn't look like Motown was taking over. It had absolutely nothing at all to do with Diana Ross. I'm astounded at how much some people think Ross figured into everything. The Supremes had no contract when Jean left and it was over a year until it got done, so they recorded nothing. By the time High Energy came out, Motown had Stevie, Marvin and The Commodores doing good business, Ross doing spotty business and everyone else not bringing much as The Tempts and J5 planned their exits. Motown NEEDED The Supremes to try to undo some of the red ink.


Being a Diana Ross fan, I can say that you are RIGHT. Motown did everything they could do to stop the Supremes [[and everyone else) from taking away from Diana Ross. That was why Berry created all those labels so attention could be given but not to the degree that Diana got because she was on the "main label" rather than a subsidiary like Tamla, Gordy or Soul. Motown definitely gave someone preferential treatment. It's not a slight against Diana, that's just how the company was run by the mid-1970s... they purposely stopped promoting the Supremes after a certain point. I, myself, growing up as a Motown fan had no idea about any Supremes hits after Stoned Love until high school! Lol

[TheMotownManiac]

Billboard is Sales & Airplay. Cash Box & RW sales only.
Let's look at the charts for 1970.

Billboard/Cash Box/Record World[

Up The Ladder 10 9 7
Reach Out 20 10 9

Everybody 21 14 13
Ain't 1 1 1

Stoned Love 7 5 5
Remember Me 16 10 8

Right On 25
Diana Ross 18

New Ways 68
Everything Is 42

If You Add Four Tops Duet:
River Deep 14 15 12

Mag 7 116

As you see, it's hardly a slam dunk for either on singles. Ross sold more LPs.

In 1971, The Supremes had a hit and two flops, while Ross had 3 flops but all charted higher tha The Supremes' flops. Again Ross' LP sales were much stronger.

The point is that neither act was a threat to the other or making the other look bad, so Mary's assertion that The Supremes had to be reeled in to keep them from humiliating Ross is a bit of a stretch. It was nearly 2 years after Surrender flopped before Ross got another pop record out, while The Supremes worked with three new producers and kept releasing new material. Clearly the rivalry was only in someone's head.

[marv2]

Billboard is Sales & Airplay. Cash Box & RW sales only.
Let's look at the charts for 1970.

Billboard/Cash Box/Record World[

Up The Ladder 10 9 7
Reach Out 20 10 9

Everybody 21 14 13
Ain't 1 1 1

Stoned Love 7 5 5
Remember Me 16 10 8

Right On 25
Diana Ross 18

New Ways 68
Everything Is 42

If You Add Four Tops Duet:
River Deep 14 15 12

Mag 7 116

As you see, it's hardly a slam dunk for either on singles. Ross sold more LPs.

In 1971, The Supremes had a hit and two flops, while Ross had 3 flops but all charted higher tha The Supremes' flops. Again Ross' LP sales were much stronger.

The point is that neither act was a threat to the other or making the other look bad, so Mary's assertion that The Supremes had to be reeled in to keep them from humiliating Ross is a bit of a stretch. It was nearly 2 years after Surrender flopped before Ross got another pop record out, while The Supremes worked with three new producers and kept releasing new material. Clearly the rivalry was only in someone's head.

Why are you continually talking about Diana Ross in this thread about Jean Terrell and Motown?

[marybrewster]

anyone know why cindy did not stay with flos???

It's too bad Cindy wanted so long to embark on a solo career. By 1987, I'm sure the general public thought "Cindy who?"

[Bluebrock]

Why are you continually talking about Diana Ross in this thread about Jean Terrell and Motown?
It's not just him Marv. I was guilty of bringing Scherrie and Susaye into the thread a couple of years ago. though i do concede that a certain Diana Ross seems to find her way into so many threads.
I think this particular thread has been one of the best for a long time. Many people sharing their views on a subject that is obviously of considerable interest to many people.
Keep up the good work i say!

[Bluebrock]

It's not just him Marv. I was guilty of bringing Scherrie and Susaye into the thread a couple of years ago. though i do concede that a certain Diana Ross seems to find her way into so many threads.
I think this particular thread has been one of the best for a long time. Many people sharing their views on a subject that is obviously of considerable interest to many people.
Keep up the good work i say!
Ooops. I meant to say a couple of days ago!!!

[midnightman]

Actually I like the way this thread is being discussed and that's because we're actually discussing stuff. Let's keep it going like this haha

But yeah the Supremes still had major hit success up until 1972. 1972 was truly the turning point for Motown as a top musical force. Once many of the original acts left and Motown had departed for Los Angeles, it wasn't the same anymore. I wished the Supremes had left Motown like the Spinners and Gladys Knight & The Pips had but unlike them, they were pretty much Berry Gordy's "creation" so to speak and less independent than the Spinners and GK&TPs were.

[marv2]

People have said that the seventies was the age of "self-containment" when it came to recording artists. You had a flood of singer songwriters as well as talented musicians contained all in a single act. There was less and less need for staff writers, producers, etc, etc. I have read claims that groups like the Supremes were costly because they had to have songs written tailor made for them, choreographers, costumer designers, etc etc. That was true for them and most of the groups that came out of the sixties. That condition was also created by the record companies themselves by not allowing their artists to write for themselves etc. They had full control of the artists pre-1970 and then complained that it was too costly! So in come the seventies with bands that wrote and played their own songs ala The Commodores, EWF, etc and the biggest groups from the sixties became "lounge acts"!

[TheMotownManiac]

I believe it too. Motown was trying to get a hit off of the silly One Love In My Lifetime [[a LOST cause IMHO) which came out as I'm Gonna Let My Heart had stopped moving. That kind of request from promotion men was very common. They thought of a song on a playlist as a "slot" for their label. To my ear, I think High energy should have gone out. I still play that album.


Regarding this mythical "huge promotional push" for High Energy. Scherrie said that she was at a radio station that had been called by a Motown rep and told to stop playing "I'm Gonna Let My Heart Do the Walking" and play Diana Ross instead. That is what Scherrie Payne said. I believe her.

[TheMotownManiac]

The same reason you were talking about High Energy, The Spinners leaving Motown etc. And I'm not talking about Diana Ross. I am talking about the myth Mary started in her book that The Supremes were way bigger than Ross after the break up causing Motown to panic and it simply isn't true at all. Not even close. So I provided the facts. There was no reason for Motown to sabotage The Supremes and by giving them their top producer, arranger, the best material and constant TV exposure, it's impossible to say they were mistreated.

Also, I know some here don't like Jean, but if you saw her live, she was terrific and much better than on TV. Both line ups with Jean put on excellent shows which changed frequently. Once Mary began to get a few solos, the balance was even better. I think had more people seen them live, it would have helped.


Why are you continually talking about Diana Ross in this thread about Jean Terrell and Motown?

[marybrewster]

What is interesting is, all through this, the Supremes were still everywhere, as far as television was concerned; Flip Wilson Show, Glen Campbell, Andy Williams Show, Smokey Robinson Special, the Bob Hope Special, the Kate Smith Special, Soul Train. Even after Jean left, there was Sonny and Cher, Merv, more Soul Train, Tonight Show with Johnny Carson, and Dinah!

So while Motown may not have "promoted" them as far as music was concerned, they sure were pushed on the small screen. I wonder if Ed Sullivan had stayed on the air, if they would have continued the tradition of debuting each of their singles. I imagine that show alone increased sales.

[Roberta75]

The same reason you were talking about High Energy, The Spinners leaving Motown etc. And I'm not talking about Diana Ross. I am talking about the myth Mary started in her book that The Supremes were way bigger than Ross after the break up causing Motown to panic and it simply isn't true at all. Not even close. So I provided the facts. There was no reason for Motown to sabotage The Supremes and by giving them their top producer, arranger, the best material and constant TV exposure, it's impossible to say they were mistreated.

The protected one is calling the shots my dear and is the only one to discuss Diane Ross which he does on a daily basis.

Fondly,

Roberta

[marv2]

What is interesting is, all through this, the Supremes were still everywhere, as far as television was concerned; Flip Wilson Show, Glen Campbell, Andy Williams Show, Smokey Robinson Special, the Bob Hope Special, the Kate Smith Special, Soul Train. Even after Jean left, there was Sonny and Cher, Merv, more Soul Train, Tonight Show with Johnny Carson, and Dinah!

So while Motown may not have "promoted" them as far as music was concerned, they sure were pushed on the small screen. I wonder if Ed Sullivan had stayed on the air, if they would have continued the tradition of debuting each of their singles. I imagine that show alone increased sales.

MaryBrewster that is true. The Supremes appeared on television throughout most of the 70s.....BUT that was mostly Mary Wilson's and Pedro Ferrer's doing! The Supremes being the most successful American group notwithstanding, Mary Wilson had a lot of solid relationships and connections in the entertainment industry. Many of the shows they appeared on were hosted by personal friends of Mary! LOL! That included the Sammy Davis & Company Show, Nancy Wilson's show, The Pearl Bailey Show, The Scene [[in Detroit) , The Mike Douglas Show and on and on and on.

[marv2]

The protected one is calling the shots my dear and is the only one to discuss Diane Ross which he does on a daily basis.

Fondly,

Roberta

Look, are you going to continue to play the lone wolf troublemaker or are you going to join in the discussion of the subject at hand?

[motony]

From what I remember as a big fan of Motown since the beginning, Motown did kinda freak when the Supremes first release with Jean "Up the Ladder to The Roof" was a much bigger hit on the Pop Charts & the Soul Charts then Diana Ross' first solo record "Reach Out & Touch".

[Bluebrock]

What is interesting is, all through this, the Supremes were still everywhere, as far as television was concerned; Flip Wilson Show, Glen Campbell, Andy Williams Show, Smokey Robinson Special, the Bob Hope Special, the Kate Smith Special, Soul Train. Even after Jean left, there was Sonny and Cher, Merv, more Soul Train, Tonight Show with Johnny Carson, and Dinah!

So while Motown may not have "promoted" them as far as music was concerned, they sure were pushed on the small screen. I wonder if Ed Sullivan had stayed on the air, if they would have continued the tradition of debuting each of their singles. I imagine that show alone increased sales.
Looking back i am amazed at just how often the 70'S Supremes appeared on US tv. Not having lived in America at that time i have watched so many performances via youtube these past 10 years or so. They certainly appeared more often than a certain Ms Ross. With such exposure they had every opportunity to sell their music. Even when the hits dried up they were still out there doing what they did best.
I only ever saw Jean live as part of the FLOS , and by that time she was probably more rusty than she would have been in her prime. I only wish i could have seen the JMC or JML line ups at the time.

[marv2]

From what I remember as a big fan of Motown since the beginning, Motown did kinda freak when the Supremes first release with Jean "Up the Ladder to The Roof" was a much bigger hit on the Pop Charts & the Soul Charts then Diana Ross' first solo record "Reach Out & Touch".

I know they freaked. Radio stations around Detroit and Toledo that rarely ever played the Supremes before, were playing "Up Ladder......." just about every hour at the time.

[rod_rick]

Looking back i am amazed at just how often the 70'S Supremes appeared on US tv. Not having lived in America at that time i have watched so many performances via youtube these past 10 years or so. They certainly appeared more often than a certain Ms Ross. With such exposure they had every opportunity to sell their music. Even when the hits dried up they were still out there doing what they did best.
I only ever saw Jean live as part of the FLOS , and by that time she was probably more rusty than she would have been in her prime. I only wish i could have seen the JMC or JML line ups at the time.

With all the TV exposure you would think that would automatically increase record sales, unless the product wasn't available. I know some of you have worked in the industry so tell me would or could a record company seemingly promote a product but not make it readily available? I just think about the scene from DreamGirls when Curtis paid to have Effie's single of "One Night Only" to fail.

I always thought that Mary said the Supremes got off to a better start than Diana Ross. I never got the impression that she was deliberately stating that the Supremes outsold Diana, just that they took off first and Diana had to play catch-up

[marv2]

With all the TV exposure you would think that would automatically increase record sales, unless the product wasn't available. I know some of you have worked in the industry so tell me would or could a record company seemingly promote a product but not make it readily available? I just think about the scene from DreamGirls when Curtis paid to have Effie's single of "One Night Only" to fail.

I always thought that Mary said the Supremes got off to a better start than Diana Ross. I never got the impression that she was deliberately stating that the Supremes outsold Diana, just that they took off first and Diana had to play catch-up

Rod_rick, great questions and great insight on your part! The product was not always available in usual retail outlets. That practice Curtis used in Dreamgirls was not unheard of. Mary and others were right. The Supremes were seeing more success than Diana Ross in the beginning.

[detmotownguy]

Bad Weather was waaaaaay before Mary, Scherrie & Susaye, like years before. Perhaps you meant Produced & Arranged by Jimmy Webb?

I agree that retailers will order what will sell. Funny, when the 70's Anthology came out on cd I went to Virgin Records in Times Square to get a copy. I had to ask the guy if they had it. He said, "I just put some out!" He had to go into the back and pull the rest of the copies they had. He said they never expected it to sell so well so they didn't order a lot of copies.

Can the 70's Anthology even be purchased anymore other than eBay?

[detmotownguy]

The same reason you were talking about High Energy, The Spinners leaving Motown etc. And I'm not talking about Diana Ross. I am talking about the myth Mary started in her book that The Supremes were way bigger than Ross after the break up causing Motown to panic and it simply isn't true at all. Not even close. So I provided the facts. There was no reason for Motown to sabotage The Supremes and by giving them their top producer, arranger, the best material and constant TV exposure, it's impossible to say they were mistreated.

Also, I know some here don't like Jean, but if you saw her live, she was terrific and much better than on TV. Both line ups with Jean put on excellent shows which changed frequently. Once Mary began to get a few solos, the balance was even better. I think had more people seen them live, it would have helped.

I agree, Jean was great live. I saw her at the Ian Levine show in Detroit. When the initial notes of Ladder left her mouth is was 1970 again. Then the wailing in the background started and sadly all down hill from there. We left and 2 blocks away she was still being drowned out. She is in the top tier of vocalists.....sweet and soulful.

[midnightman]

@rod_rick yes that's exactly what Mary was saying. She didn't say nothing about outselling Diana, just that in terms of their careers in 1970, the Supremes' post-Diana era kicked off better than Diana's solo career.

[TheMotownManiac]

It wasn't that much bigger on the sales charts above. Also, on R&B, Ladder hit #5, reach out #7 - not a huge difference. I'm curious as to how Motown "freaked" as I also was there and noticed nothing as far as reaction except a full page ad in Billboard announcing it had gone top ten. I think Motown might have expected it to do as well or better because A) It's a better record. B) They did in on TV several times including a huge launch on Sullivan. Ross did no TV to plug it until after it slipped. C) Ladder was released as Someday was still on the sales charts taking advantage of that momentum. reach Out came out 2 months later.

Where/ how exactly did you witness Motown freaking?


From what I remember as a big fan of Motown since the beginning, Motown did kinda freak when the Supremes first release with Jean "Up the Ladder to The Roof" was a much bigger hit on the Pop Charts & the Soul Charts then Diana Ross' first solo record "Reach Out & Touch".

[captainjames]

Radio stations were still announcing "Up The Ladder" as a Diana Ross and The Supremes" single. Both acts were trying to establish their own identity. The dust was still flying.

[marv2]

Radio stations were still announcing "Up The Ladder" as a Diana Ross and The Supremes" single. Both acts were trying to establish their own identity. The dust was still flying.

No they weren't. You know why they did not do that? Because nearly everyone in North America knew Diana Ross had left the Supremes and their last hit "together" was "Someday We'll Be Together". Even guys that worked in the factories or drove buses knew that. Radio Stations and their staffs being a part of the industry certainly knew about the transition and who Jean Terrell was. Many even introduced the record as being by "The New Supremes"! So if by chance [[and I don't believe that was likely), you heard a DJ in America announce that "Up The Ladder to The Roof" was by Diana Ross & the Supremes, his ass was fired the next day for drinking on the job! So I do not believe anything you just said and I was around during the time!

[daviddh]

the Supremes were off to a good start....and they continued to have hits . here in Baltimore the radio stations were still playing their top ten or so hits...but were also playing the same for Ross, like most of us we were still fans of both. after Lady Ross was on her way but still struggling...here and there but the Supremes were nearly done until IGLMHDTW which was a tremendous return to form. but Motown closed down Detroit and lost a lot of loyal employees.....the supremes had an offer to go on to Dunlap,.[[.i think it was ) as the 4 tops were there already by this point but MW backed out. I think this caused the friction between Jean and Mary. anyway, had Motown kept Detroit locstion open , had frank Wilson continued to produce them, etc had the supremes had good management. I don't think there were any schemes to kill the Supremes. I think really ,sad to say MW did that in the end.just my opnion

[marv2]

the Supremes were off to a good start....and they continued to have hits . here in Baltimore the radio stations were still playing their top ten or so hits...but were also playing the same for Ross, like most of us we were still fans of both. after Lady Ross was on her way but still struggling...here and there but the Supremes were nearly done until IGLMHDTW which was a tremendous return to form. but Motown closed down Detroit and lost a lot of loyal employees.....the supremes had an offer to go on to Dunlap,.[[.i think it was ) as the 4 tops were there already by this point but MW backed out. I think this caused the friction between Jean and Mary. anyway, had Motown kept Detroit locstion open , had frank Wilson continued to produce them, etc had the supremes had good management. I don't think there were any schemes to kill the Supremes. I think really ,sad to say MW did that in the end.just my opnion

daviddh, you got it! It is true that ABC-Dunhill was interested in signing the Supremes ,but Motown it turned out owned the name. Mary Wilson did not want to start over after working so hard to build the name "Supremes" into a success. That is all that I recall that caused the friction.

[thommg]

Can the 70's Anthology even be purchased anymore other than eBay?

Amazon is selling used copies and also the album as a download.

[midnightman]

I had no idea Motown owned the Dunhill imprint!!!

[marv2]

I had no idea Motown owned the Dunhill imprint!!!

Midnightman, I should clarify. Motown owned the name "The Supremes" then later on, Mary Wilson owned 50% interest in the name. Motown did not own ABC-Dunhill.

[rod_rick]

No they weren't. You know why they did not do that? Because nearly everyone in North America knew Diana Ross had left the Supremes and their last hit "together" was "Someday We'll Be Together". Even guys that worked in the factories or drove buses knew that. Radio Stations and their staffs being a part of the industry certainly knew about the transition and who Jean Terrell was. Many even introduced the record as being by "The New Supremes"! So if by chance [[and I don't believe that was likely), you heard a DJ in America announce that "Up The Ladder to The Roof" was by Diana Ross & the Supremes, his ass was fired the next day for drinking on the job! So I do not believe anything you just said and I was around during the time!

Marv
I would have to disagree with you. Here in Los Angeles the mistake of Dj's stating that the early recordings of Up the Ladder and Stoned Love were announced as DR & S I recall hereing that mistake several times. No it was not all the time but it did happen on occasion. I don't think it happen with Nathan Jones and Floy Joy.

[Jimi LaLumia]

I must confess that I heard Stoned Love decades later on NYC's oldies radio CBS FM and the DJ merntioned it as Diana Ross' group and I actually called the station to correct him.. I also got into a thing with the daytime dj on NY's Top 40 giant 77WABC AM; his name is Dan Ingram and he played Stoned Love as an 'oldie' in , I guess 1974 or 75 and said it was the only hit the group had after Ross left.. well, I wrote him a letter which he talked about on the air, as he said, "I got a letter from someone or someTHING called LaLumia [[I used to sign off with just my last name, like Zorro) and he ranted about 'what kind of perrson keeps track of this sort of thing" blah blah after I reminded him that 77WABC had played and charted "Ladder", "Everybody''s" "River Deep" and "Nathan" and how dare he downplay the group's sucesses ..I was driving home on the Long Island Expressway , I had sent the letter a week before and figured he threw it out or never saw it, even though I had done a feature interview for a magazine with WABC's 'Cousin Brucie" in 1970.. well, he didn't just throw it out! lol.. I flipped out and almost veered off the LIE, thanks for reminding me of something I haven't thought about in decades... Nathan was the last Supremes single that WABC ever played..

[marybrewster]

I can see how a DJ might easily mistake the NAME Supremes for Diana Ross and the Supremes; you'd be a fool though to mistake their voices.

With that said, over the years I've heard "Ain't No Mountain High Enough" credited to Diana Ross and the Supremes; have even heard "Baby Love" as credited as DRATS, when TECHNICALLY, it's just "The Supremes".

Which makes me ask: does it irritate anyone else when a SUPREMES record [[with Diana) is introduced [[or labeled) as a DRATS record?

[marybrewster]

Or what are your thoughts on this?

10934

[midnightman]

Midnightman, I should clarify. Motown owned the name "The Supremes" then later on, Mary Wilson owned 50% interest in the name. Motown did not own ABC-Dunhill.

Oh OK lol

I was going like "what?!" Maybe because I was sleepy I read it wrong... I have that habit smh

[midnightman]

I can see how a DJ might easily mistake the NAME Supremes for Diana Ross and the Supremes; you'd be a fool though to mistake their voices.

With that said, over the years I've heard "Ain't No Mountain High Enough" credited to Diana Ross and the Supremes; have even heard "Baby Love" as credited as DRATS, when TECHNICALLY, it's just "The Supremes".

Which makes me ask: does it irritate anyone else when a SUPREMES record [[with Diana) is introduced [[or labeled) as a DRATS record?

When I was listening to oldies radio many years ago, I did hear many stations referring to "Ain't No Mountain High Enough" as a "Diana Ross and the Supremes" song... I don't know how many times I heard it, just that it was frequent. I never recalled the oldies stations playing "Stoned Love" until much later and when they did, they'll say "from the Supremes", never DRATS...

[detmotownguy]

I have heard Stoned Love intoduced as the DRATS. Twice!

[johnjeb]

I must confess that I heard Stoned Love decades later on NYC's oldies radio CBS FM and the DJ merntioned it as Diana Ross' group ..

Around the time of the Take Me Higher album release and subsequent tour a local talk jock, mostly a political format with some entertainment features, was interviewing Diana Ross on her upcoming local appearance...he told her his favorite Supremes song was "Stoned Love"...she responded that it wasn't her record and that he didn't "do his homework"...he replied that it was right there on the list of Supremes songs and it didn't state it wasn't recorded by Diana Ross...ironically, she replied that it was recorded by her replacement "Scherrie Terrell" but she stammered and realized she didn't have the name correct but couldn't seem to recall the name "Jean"!!!...so if she can't get her own history correct how can she expect someone on the periphery to grasp every detail...and how can we expect every DJ to know the details of every group or record they are told to play by their programmers... maybe we can allow them the occasional slip of the tongue or foggy memory recall...

I don't mind the slips by DJs these days...so many years have gone by for it to make that much of a difference...if they at least identify it as The Supremes and/or Diana Ross then at least they're in the right ball park...I get more annoyed by The Vandellas and Marvelettes mix-ups...of course, I don't even know the difference between a Crystal and a Chiffon...I hang my head in shame...

[Bluebrock]

the Supremes were off to a good start....and they continued to have hits . here in Baltimore the radio stations were still playing their top ten or so hits...but were also playing the same for Ross, like most of us we were still fans of both. after Lady Ross was on her way but still struggling...here and there but the Supremes were nearly done until IGLMHDTW which was a tremendous return to form. but Motown closed down Detroit and lost a lot of loyal employees.....the supremes had an offer to go on to Dunlap,.[[.i think it was ) as the 4 tops were there already by this point but MW backed out. I think this caused the friction between Jean and Mary. anyway, had Motown kept Detroit locstion open , had frank Wilson continued to produce them, etc had the supremes had good management. I don't think there were any schemes to kill the Supremes. I think really ,sad to say MW did that in the end.just my opnion
Yes David you are correct.

[Bluebrock]

Yes David you are correct.
Motown wanted the Supremes to continue but as Marv mentioned yesterday they became an expensive commodity . They didn't write their own songs so required talented songwriters and producers to give them good quality material as opposed to the likes of Marvin and Stevie who were self sufficient and making huge amounts of money for the label. As far as Diana was concerned they wanted to steer her more towards the movie/ Broadway area as a black Streisand. She herself told me this. Sure they wanted her to sell records but it was just one of several areas where they could make money out of her, but the Supremes did not have this luxury to fall back on, and with the hostility continuing between Mary and Jean [[and later Lynda) some Motown execs felt they were not getting a return on their investment and had no objections to the girls departing Motown . Jean and Lynda wanted to go but Mary knew she couldn't take the name with them so she opted to stay put which was the final straw for Jean who then quit.
It all but destroyed the group because legal wrangles ensured the group could not enter the studio for two years, and the group never fully recovered, so if anyone was responsible for killing the Supremes i would have to agree with you David that Mary was indeed at least parcially responsible for this.
Prepare for the fall out..............

[midnightman]

I wonder if Mary, Diana and Florence had ever read their original contract. I'd imagine that once Berry signed them, there was an option to sell the name "Supremes" since it was in Motown's ownership [[same thing happened with the Marvelettes). Otis Williams and Melvin Franklin had to renegotiate their contract so they could leave the label as The Temptations since initially Motown owned that name as well. I feel had Mary at least read the contract, she would've advised for Motown to let them keep the name especially since they worked hard enough to make sure that name was well known. I don't think Diana has any ownership of the Supremes' name herself and neither does Florence Ballard's estate.

[Jimi LaLumia]

"Scherrie Terrell"..that is a HOOT.. I never heard that one before! Happy New Year, everybody

[Bluebrock]

Around the time of the Take Me Higher album release and subsequent tour a local talk jock, mostly a political format with some entertainment features, was interviewing Diana Ross on her upcoming local appearance...he told her his favorite Supremes song was "Stoned Love"...she responded that it wasn't her record and that he didn't "do his homework"...he replied that it was right there on the list of Supremes songs and it didn't state it wasn't recorded by Diana Ross...ironically, she replied that it was recorded by her replacement "Scherrie Terrell" but she stammered and realized she didn't have the name correct but couldn't seem to recall the name "Jean"!!!...so if she can't get her own history correct how can she expect someone on the periphery to grasp every detail...and how can we expect every DJ to know the details of every group or record they are told to play by their programmers... maybe we can allow them the occasional slip of the tongue or foggy memory recall...

I don't mind the slips by DJs these days...so many years have gone by for it to make that much of a difference...if they at least identify it as The Supremes and/or Diana Ross then at least they're in the right ball park...I get more annoyed by The Vandellas and Marvelettes mix-ups...of course, I don't even know the difference between a Crystal and a Chiffon...I hang my head in shame...
An occasional slip of the tongue or memory lapse is understandable. In the UK as recently as October Mary stated in an interview on the radio that the Supremes enjoyed 11 US Billboard no.1's when everyone here knows it was 12, but no-one made a big thing of it.

[Bluebrock]

I wonder if Mary, Diana and Florence had ever read their original contract. I'd imagine that once Berry signed them, there was an option to sell the name "Supremes" since it was in Motown's ownership [[same thing happened with the Marvelettes). Otis Williams and Melvin Franklin had to renegotiate their contract so they could leave the label as The Temptations since initially Motown owned that name as well. I feel had Mary at least read the contract, she would've advised for Motown to let them keep the name especially since they worked hard enough to make sure that name was well known. I don't think Diana has any ownership of the Supremes' name herself and neither does Florence Ballard's estate.
Diana relinquished any rights to the name when she left the group and Flo's estate never had any ownership. It was soley Mary and Motown which was quite correct in my opinion.

[midnightman]

Thanks. Like I said, I wish Mary had fought for control of the name...

[thommg]

I have heard Stoned Love introduced as the DRATS. Twice!

Hah! This happened at the last Supremes convention held at the Motown Cafe in New York City. The DJ there announced it as Diana Ross & The Supremes!

[Bluebrock]

Thanks. Like I said, I wish Mary had fought for control of the name...
I think she did try but was fighting a losing battle. I think Motown should have done the decent thing and signed over the name to her, but she had ruffled some feathers with the execs and they thought it easier to offer her a solo contract, release a stinker of an album, give it no promotion and then quietly drop her. Job done on their part.

[Jimi LaLumia]

as long as Ross was signed to Motown, Gordy wasn't letting go of that name,as it was linked to her even though she had been out for a decade, and he wasn't going to allow control of it elsewhere.. when she split for RCA in 1980, well, that's another story..

[marv2]

I must confess that I heard Stoned Love decades later on NYC's oldies radio CBS FM and the DJ merntioned it as Diana Ross' group and I actually called the station to correct him.. I also got into a thing with the daytime dj on NY's Top 40 giant 77WABC AM; his name is Dan Ingram and he played Stoned Love as an 'oldie' in , I guess 1974 or 75 and said it was the only hit the group had after Ross left.. well, I wrote him a letter which he talked about on the air, as he said, "I got a letter from someone or someTHING called LaLumia [[I used to sign off with just my last name, like Zorro) and he ranted about 'what kind of perrson keeps track of this sort of thing" blah blah after I reminded him that 77WABC had played and charted "Ladder", "Everybody''s" "River Deep" and "Nathan" and how dare he downplay the group's sucesses ..I was driving home on the Long Island Expressway , I had sent the letter a week before and figured he threw it out or never saw it, even though I had done a feature interview for a magazine with WABC's 'Cousin Brucie" in 1970.. well, he didn't just throw it out! lol.. I flipped out and almost veered off the LIE, thanks for reminding me of something I haven't thought about in decades... Nathan was the last Supremes single that WABC ever played..


Jimi, how many hours of your life would say has been spent on the the LIE? About 9,000 for me LOL!

[marv2]

I can see how a DJ might easily mistake the NAME Supremes for Diana Ross and the Supremes; you'd be a fool though to mistake their voices.

With that said, over the years I've heard "Ain't No Mountain High Enough" credited to Diana Ross and the Supremes; have even heard "Baby Love" as credited as DRATS, when TECHNICALLY, it's just "The Supremes".

Which makes me ask: does it irritate anyone else when a SUPREMES record [[with Diana) is introduced [[or labeled) as a DRATS record?

It is quite irritating especially knowing their story and the heartbreak Florence Ballard went through over the name change.

[marv2]

Or what are your thoughts on this?

10934

MaryB the attachment did not show up.

[marv2]

Around the time of the Take Me Higher album release and subsequent tour a local talk jock, mostly a political format with some entertainment features, was interviewing Diana Ross on her upcoming local appearance...he told her his favorite Supremes song was "Stoned Love"...she responded that it wasn't her record and that he didn't "do his homework"...he replied that it was right there on the list of Supremes songs and it didn't state it wasn't recorded by Diana Ross...ironically, she replied that it was recorded by her replacement "Scherrie Terrell" but she stammered and realized she didn't have the name correct but couldn't seem to recall the name "Jean"!!!...so if she can't get her own history correct how can she expect someone on the periphery to grasp every detail...and how can we expect every DJ to know the details of every group or record they are told to play by their programmers... maybe we can allow them the occasional slip of the tongue or foggy memory recall...

I don't mind the slips by DJs these days...so many years have gone by for it to make that much of a difference...if they at least identify it as The Supremes and/or Diana Ross then at least they're in the right ball park...I get more annoyed by The Vandellas and Marvelettes mix-ups...of course, I don't even know the difference between a Crystal and a Chiffon...I hang my head in shame...

You made a very distinct, key point when you said so many years went by. Ok,but what I was referring to earlier was at the time [[February 1970) of "Up the Ladder to the Roof" being released, just about everyone in North America knew or had heard that the Supremes had split up! They were the biggest American group at the time and we had far less media outlets than we do today so we all got pretty much the same news back then. We got earlier in Detroit in regards to anything Motown. Decades later when you have DJ's that may not have even been born mistakes can be made and there is no big deal. If a DJ today referred to Adele as "Odell" or something else, people would call him on it as an example.

[marv2]

Around the time of the Take Me Higher album release and subsequent tour a local talk jock, mostly a political format with some entertainment features, was interviewing Diana Ross on her upcoming local appearance...he told her his favorite Supremes song was "Stoned Love"...she responded that it wasn't her record and that he didn't "do his homework"...he replied that it was right there on the list of Supremes songs and it didn't state it wasn't recorded by Diana Ross...ironically, she replied that it was recorded by her replacement "Scherrie Terrell" but she stammered and realized she didn't have the name correct but couldn't seem to recall the name "Jean"!!!...so if she can't get her own history correct how can she expect someone on the periphery to grasp every detail...and how can we expect every DJ to know the details of every group or record they are told to play by their programmers... maybe we can allow them the occasional slip of the tongue or foggy memory recall...

I don't mind the slips by DJs these days...so many years have gone by for it to make that much of a difference...if they at least identify it as The Supremes and/or Diana Ross then at least they're in the right ball park...I get more annoyed by The Vandellas and Marvelettes mix-ups...of course, I don't even know the difference between a Crystal and a Chiffon...I hang my head in shame...

She's done that before. Pretend that she could not remember Jean Terrell's name. It was on a British talk show in 1996 when asked about what went wrong for the Supremes and Diane replied that she did not know. She said, while grinning, that they had "Terrell" and everything so she just doesn't know what happened to them! It was all fake.

[marv2]

Motown wanted the Supremes to continue but as Marv mentioned yesterday they became an expensive commodity . They didn't write their own songs so required talented songwriters and producers to give them good quality material as opposed to the likes of Marvin and Stevie who were self sufficient and making huge amounts of money for the label. As far as Diana was concerned they wanted to steer her more towards the movie/ Broadway area as a black Streisand. She herself told me this. Sure they wanted her to sell records but it was just one of several areas where they could make money out of her, but the Supremes did not have this luxury to fall back on, and with the hostility continuing between Mary and Jean [[and later Lynda) some Motown execs felt they were not getting a return on their investment and had no objections to the girls departing Motown . Jean and Lynda wanted to go but Mary knew she couldn't take the name with them so she opted to stay put which was the final straw for Jean who then quit.
It all but destroyed the group because legal wrangles ensured the group could not enter the studio for two years, and the group never fully recovered, so if anyone was responsible for killing the Supremes i would have to agree with you David that Mary was indeed at least parcially responsible for this.
Prepare for the fall out..............

You have one big important part of this wrong. During this time Lynda Lawrence was cutting up and making waves to the point that it became noticeable to people at Motown outside of the Supremes. When word got out that the group may be looking to leave Motown, Motown Execs were livid! I mean they were mad as Hell. I remember all of this. This why they came up with the "Mary y'all can leave, but the name stays HERE!" line of defense. They went further and said that Jean and the others owed them money for general services associated with their careers as Supremes. They had Cindy Birdsong sign away her royalties and negate her "expenses" owed to Motown for a lump sum of $100,000! Mary could not have possibly been responsible for killing off the Supremes. She was reactionary. The Supremes were her life's blood at that time.

[marv2]

Hah! This happened at the last Supremes convention held at the Motown Cafe in New York City. The DJ there announced it as Diana Ross & The Supremes!

I was there. I don't remember that much other that Betty Kelly telling me all kind of stuff LOL! I miss the Motown Cafe and their sampler plate! LOL!!!

[marv2]

as long as Ross was signed to Motown, Gordy wasn't letting go of that name,as it was linked to her even though she had been out for a decade, and he wasn't going to allow control of it elsewhere.. when she split for RCA in 1980, well, that's another story..

He was sad for a moment. He was extremely angry too for a good long time after she did that.

[Jimi LaLumia]

and Marv, I have leaned to circumnavigate the LIE! enuf to drive you insane! Happy New Year, Happy 2016 to you..

[midnightman]

Diana knew what was going on, she just chose to act like she had no idea what was going on. That is a classic Ross trait right there.

[REDHOT]

To this day Scherrie Payne,don't get royalties,because they[[motown)say she still owe them money,from The Supremes days smh

[marv2]

and Marv, I have leaned to circumnavigate the LIE! enuf to drive you insane! Happy New Year, Happy 2016 to you..

Take the back roads right? Happy New Year buddy! I wished I were in Montauk! LOL

[marv2]

Diana knew what was going on, she just chose to act like she had no idea what was going on. That is a classic Ross trait right there.

Of course she knew what was going on. There are some things I could tell that would disappoint a number of people. But.......Happy New Year Y'all LOL!

[marv2]

To this day Scherrie Payne,don't get royalties,because they[[motown)say she still owe them money,from The Supremes days smh

They tried that with Jean Terrell until she sued them in 1994.

[luke]

One of the Motown books said I think it was cholly Atkins who spoke to Mary about Lynda and said Mary needed to do something about her behavior which Marv referred to above.

[thommg]

I was there. I don't remember that much other that Betty Kelly telling me all kind of stuff LOL! I miss the Motown Cafe and their sampler plate! LOL!!!

I was also there, Marv. And the funny thing was, it wasn't even the original recording, it was a new remix of the FLOS version.

And Betty Kelly getting onstage there with the "Vandellas" and showing them how the choreography was supposed to be done was a highlight of the day!

[BayouMotownMan]

It's amazing to me how this subject keeps coming up and so many "experts" knowing what happened and how much money a Supreme received.

I interviewed Jean several times, particularly in 1978 when she gave me a two hour interview. She spoke candidly but guardedly about Motown.

I think it safe to say nobody could have inherited Diana Ross's position with the most famous female group of all time without having great difficulties. As Jean said, The Supremes image was, and still is, DIANA'S image. When the average Joe thinks of the Supremes they think of her [[like it or not) with two other girls. As was the case with the Miracles, both groups had hit records without their famous lead singers but never did either group recapture the level of popularity they previously had.

Jean went into the Supremes somewhat reluctantly. She was totally happy singing with Ernie and working sporadically enough to be able to have a personal life. She was not equipped for the throngs of fans pulling on her and demanding her time after a show. She felt her job was to sing as well as she could and then be allowed to go home. Rightly or wrongly, it was the way she felt.

Going into 71 and 72, Motown was having a hard time with all the classic groups from the 60s, as the self-contained artists were emerging [[Marvin, Smokey, Stevie). There just came a time when the Supremes needed far too much investment from Motown for the returns that were given. Jean also said music was changing and Motown was constantly keeping them in the 3 minute uptempo teen love songs. When the group approached serious music, like Jimmy Webb and Stevie, not only did Motown dislike the material, but the public didn't as well.

Jean Terrell was wise enough, or difficult enough whichever you may chose, to know that The Supremes were winding down. More than anything she met the man she wanted to marry and have a family with and no longer would she tour for 50 weeks a yr. She loved to sing, yes, but she had the business behind it all.

When she left the FLOs in 1992, the reasons were similar. She saw that whatever successes they would have would be limited. This was a full two years before Mary made issue of the name. Jean just didn't want to travel anymore.

[BayouMotownMan]

Jean did not go through with the suit

[BayouMotownMan]

It was no act, Diana Ross was not involved in the 70s Supremes. She had a busy career and three kids and only sporadically spoke to Mary. She attended a fundraiser the Supremes hosted in 1975 as they launched the He's My Man album. She went to bat for Mary with Berry Gordy in 1978 by requesting a Supremes without Mary be shot down and it was.

[Bluebrock]

It's amazing to me how this subject keeps coming up and so many "experts" knowing what happened and how much money a Supreme received.

I interviewed Jean several times, particularly in 1978 when she gave me a two hour interview. She spoke candidly but guardedly about Motown.

I think it safe to say nobody could have inherited Diana Ross's position with the most famous female group of all time without having great difficulties. As Jean said, The Supremes image was, and still is, DIANA'S image. When the average Joe thinks of the Supremes they think of her [[like it or not) with two other girls. As was the case with the Miracles, both groups had hit records without their famous lead singers but never did either group recapture the level of popularity they previously had.

Jean went into the Supremes somewhat reluctantly. She was totally happy singing with Ernie and working sporadically enough to be able to have a personal life. She was not equipped for the throngs of fans pulling on her and demanding her time after a show. She felt her job was to sing as well as she could and then be allowed to go home. Rightly or wrongly, it was the way she felt.

Going into 71 and 72, Motown was having a hard time with all the classic groups from the 60s, as the self-contained artists were emerging [[Marvin, Smokey, Stevie). There just came a time when the Supremes needed far too much investment from Motown for the returns that were given. Jean also said music was changing and Motown was constantly keeping them in the 3 minute uptempo teen love songs. When the group approached serious music, like Jimmy Webb and Stevie, not only did Motown dislike the material, but the public didn't as well.

Jean Terrell was wise enough, or difficult enough whichever you may chose, to know that The Supremes were winding down. More than anything she met the man she wanted to marry and have a family with and no longer would she tour for 50 weeks a yr. She loved to sing, yes, but she had the business behind it all.

When she left the FLOs in 1992, the reasons were similar. She saw that whatever successes they would have would be limited. This was a full two years before Mary made issue of the name. Jean just didn't want to travel anymore.
Excellent summary. Jean knew only too well that the Supremes most successful days were behind them. People always portray her as difficult whilst other people also involved at the time are regarded as perfect and hard done by. Those in the know are aware of this was not the case at all. Brilliant post BayouMotownman.

[marv2]

I was also there, Marv. And the funny thing was, it wasn't even the original recording, it was a new remix of the FLOS version.

And Betty Kelly getting onstage there with the "Vandellas" and showing them how the choreography was supposed to be done was a highlight of the day!

thommg, I remember Betty doing that with the girls from Motown Cafe. Mary's videotaped greetings to everyone; I remember talking with Lynda and Scherrie Payne and Lynda's mom who was from a part of Philly I use to live in. Frances Nero was there also now that I think about it.

[marv2]

Jean did not go through with the suit

That's because they settled and I know they settled with her.

[marv2]

It was no act, Diana Ross was not involved in the 70s Supremes. She had a busy career and three kids and only sporadically spoke to Mary. She attended a fundraiser the Supremes hosted in 1975 as they launched the He's My Man album. She went to bat for Mary with Berry Gordy in 1978 by requesting a Supremes without Mary be shot down and it was.

It was an act whenever she pretended not to remember Jean Terrell's name same as it was during RTL when she would get up on TV and lie and say shit like "Jean Terrell asked her if it would be ok if she came out on stage during the tour and maybe sing while I [[Diana) changed........" There is no way in the hell you are going to get me to believe that she even talked to Jean Terrell about any of that. Jean was highly insulted when she, Susaye Greene and Cindy Birdsong were asked to audition for the tour. I believe Scherrie and Lynda also had to audition!

[Roberta75]

It's amazing to me how this subject keeps coming up and so many "experts" knowing what happened and how much money a Supreme received.

I interviewed Jean several times, particularly in 1978 when she gave me a two hour interview. She spoke candidly but guardedly about Motown.

I think it safe to say nobody could have inherited Diana Ross's position with the most famous female group of all time without having great difficulties. As Jean said, The Supremes image was, and still is, DIANA'S image. When the average Joe thinks of the Supremes they think of her [[like it or not) with two other girls. As was the case with the Miracles, both groups had hit records without their famous lead singers but never did either group recapture the level of popularity they previously had.

Jean went into the Supremes somewhat reluctantly. She was totally happy singing with Ernie and working sporadically enough to be able to have a personal life. She was not equipped for the throngs of fans pulling on her and demanding her time after a show. She felt her job was to sing as well as she could and then be allowed to go home. Rightly or wrongly, it was the way she felt.

Going into 71 and 72, Motown was having a hard time with all the classic groups from the 60s, as the self-contained artists were emerging [[Marvin, Smokey, Stevie). There just came a time when the Supremes needed far too much investment from Motown for the returns that were given. Jean also said music was changing and Motown was constantly keeping them in the 3 minute uptempo teen love songs. When the group approached serious music, like Jimmy Webb and Stevie, not only did Motown dislike the material, but the public didn't as well.

Jean Terrell was wise enough, or difficult enough whichever you may chose, to know that The Supremes were winding down. More than anything she met the man she wanted to marry and have a family with and no longer would she tour for 50 weeks a yr. She loved to sing, yes, but she had the business behind it all.

When she left the FLOs in 1992, the reasons were similar. She saw that whatever successes they would have would be limited. This was a full two years before Mary made issue of the name. Jean just didn't want to travel anymore.

Thank you for being the voice of reason and for providing facts and accurate information instead of real biased hearsay and untruth.

happy New a Year.

Fondlty

Roberta

[midnightman]

To this day Scherrie Payne,don't get royalties,because they[[motown)say she still owe them money,from The Supremes days smh

WOW! I shouldn't be surprised by that but sadly I am... I know the industry does lots of folks dirty but the way the Supremes got treated should be criminal.

[midnightman]

It was an act whenever she pretended not to remember Jean Terrell's name same as it was during RTL when she would get up on TV and lie and say shit like "Jean Terrell asked her if it would be ok if she came out on stage during the tour and maybe sing while I [[Diana) changed........" There is no way in the hell you are going to get me to believe that she even talked to Jean Terrell about any of that. Jean was highly insulted when she, Susaye Greene and Cindy Birdsong were asked to audition for the tour. I believe Scherrie and Lynda also had to audition!

They were told to audition??? WHAT?! I never heard that before. Come on Diana...smh

And that "sing while I change" mess... ugh... I'm starting to really get why Mary backed off and possibly told the others to not even try it... it should've been a GROUP effort if Diana wanted all of them there!

[midnightman]

That's because they settled and I know they settled with her.

Did they say how much they settled or was it undisclosed?

[marv2]

Did they say how much they settled or was it undisclosed?


It was undisclosed as with most monetary legal settlements.

[marv2]

They were told to audition??? WHAT?! I never heard that before. Come on Diana...smh

And that "sing while I change" mess... ugh... I'm starting to really get why Mary backed off and possibly told the others to not even try it... it should've been a GROUP effort if Diana wanted all of them there!


Yeah, they were told to come to a specified location in order to audition to be Supremes! Can you believe that shit? They were asked to audition to be who they already had been! Ask Susaye, she can verify this. Diana Ross said those things and other idiotic things like we the public were complete fools. I wished I could upload all of the local NYC reports and comments they took from people on the street that day of the big Grand Central Station press conference. I was a bit surprised that it was such a huge story, so huge that KISS -FM shut down normal programming for 2 hours to have an open mic for folks to call in and discuss that mess RTL! LOL

[luke]

I remember that on the radio. Believe me people did not think Miss Ross was the Supremes and they sure knew Mary and Cindys names. Don't listen to the so called experts who want to ignore these facts. Jean was so smart to not join Diana on stage. She had too much self respect. And I believe Susaye said she was never called back after "auditioning" ..and with her voice! I guess scherrie and Lynn were waiting in the wings! How insulting. Diana should have had to audition. Oh yes! Ditto Marv per all the articles by ny press. Tons of outraged articles.. And Jean and the vandellas who joined their suits Together and Motown settled with them.

[daviddh]

I think I remember Susaye being told that she was NOT a back up singer but Lynda dna Scherrie were????

[marv2]

I think I remember Susaye being told that she was NOT a back up singer but Lynda dna Scherrie were????

How much sense does that make to you? When Susaye recorded for Motown, she sang background. She had the talent to sing background and lead.

[marv2]

I remember that on the radio. Believe me people did not think Miss Ross was the Supremes and they sure knew Mary and Cindys names. Don't listen to the so called experts who want to ignore these facts. Jean was so smart to not join Diana on stage. She had too much self respect. And I believe Susaye said she was never called back after "auditioning" ..and with her voice! I guess scherrie and Lynn were waiting in the wings! How insulting. Diana should have had to audition. Oh yes! Ditto Marv per all the articles by ny press. Tons of outraged articles.. And Jean and the vandellas who joined their suits Together and Motown settled with them.


The kicker is today, Diana Ross has the weakest voice of all of them. I wished things had worked out now especially for Cindy Birdsong's sake, but I guess that was not a thought to greedy people.

[REDHOT]

As i said many times,Jean Terrell is a moody person,some times shes up,and some times shes down,no one has time,for her moods,it's call Show Business,and the show must go on,so when she join Former Ladies Of The Supremes,i knew it wouldn't last.Jean is not a Show Biz girl,that why she left the business,and didn't look back,it had nothing to do with Motown Mary or any of the other Supremes,trust me,Jean would have left The Supremes even if they had lots of hit records.it's a fantasy if you think Motown or Mary or any of the other Supremes made Jean unhappy,remember Berry Gordy changed his mind about Jean,being a Supreme,and Mary put her foot down,and told him,Jean stays,and Jean turned on Mary,with Lynda Laurence,Jean Terrell going solo,was a no no,Jean had the voice,to be a big star,but you got to have the drive,to go with it,her album Had To Fall In Love,i loved it,because i'm a fan,but Jean wouldn't promote it,again moody,plus she never finish the album,the producer was not happy with Jean,so he had to finish with what he had,these are fact's, Jean Terrell had a great body of work,with The Supremes,no matter what.

[luke]

Diana Riss is probably the most mercurial person in show business but they had to put up with her moods Maybe they were burnt out!

[Bluebrock]

As i said many times,Jean Terrell is a moody person,some times shes up,and some times shes down,no one has time,for her moods,it's call Show Business,and the show must go on,so when she join Former Ladies Of The Supremes,i knew it wouldn't last.Jean is not a Show Biz girl,that why she left the business,and didn't look back,it had nothing to do with Motown Mary or any of the other Supremes,trust me,Jean would have left The Supremes even if they had lots of hit records.it's a fantasy if you think Motown or Mary or any of the other Supremes made Jean unhappy,remember Berry Gordy changed his mind about Jean,being a Supreme,and Mary put her foot down,and told him,Jean stays,and Jean turned on Mary,with Lynda Laurence,Jean Terrell going solo,was a no no,Jean had the voice,to be a big star,but you got to have the drive,to go with it,her album Had To Fall In Love,i loved it,because i'm a fan,but Jean wouldn't promote it,again moody,plus she never finish the album,the producer was not happy with Jean,so he had to finish with what he had,these are fact's, Jean Terrell had a great body of work,with The Supremes,no matter what.
It is true to say that Jean was not a "natural" star. She did not crave the limelight and in fact probably detested it. Yes she could be difficult and moody but all the problems were not caused soley by Jean. From information provided by a well placed source it is true to say Jean would have left the Supremes whatever happened, but she would have stayed for a 2/3 years longer. Alas it was not meant to be, but as you say she left us with a great body of work.

[REDHOT]

Detest,is a good word for it,but 2 0r 3 years,would have been a life time for Jean,plus Jean and Lynda turn into Jehovah Witness's ,and that made it even worst,she wanted out of The Supremes,out from Motown,and for the most part,out of show business,nothing could stop Jean,you see Supreme singer's like Mary Diana Scherrie Lynda and Susaye, loves Show business,they have the drive,that's why they are still singing today,they have the drive,to still be in the game,The Supremes music is Forever.

[Jimi LaLumia]

I love the Jean records, but if she didn't like 'show biz'.she shouldn't hasve joined THE SUPREMES..unless she lived in a cave somewhere, everyone knew what THE SUPREMES meant.. If she thought Berry Gordy was going to conform to her standards and ideas, well someone should have told her she was nuts.. In my opinion, Jean is FANTASTIC on record, but on stage, not so much, not for what the group's audience had come to expect..

[Bluebrock]

I love the Jean records, but if she didn't like 'show biz'.she shouldn't hasve joined THE SUPREMES..unless she lived in a cave somewhere, everyone knew what THE SUPREMES meant.. If she thought Berry Gordy was going to conform to her standards and ideas, well someone should have told her she was nuts.. In my opinion, Jean is FANTASTIC on record, but on stage, not so much, not for what the group's audience had come to expect..
I don't think Jean grasped just how intense it would be to replace Diana. Being on the road for almost every week of the year didn't suit her either. In hindsight perhaps it was a mistake to join the Supremes but we the listener would be far poorer had she not done so. Life can be full of regrets. At least she gave it a go,

[daviddh]

bottom line Jean led Supremes gave us some good singles and a few good albums.even some of the lp cuts such as SHINE ON ME were really good

[johnjeb]

I love the Jean records, but if she didn't like 'show biz'.she shouldn't hasve joined THE SUPREMES..unless she lived in a cave somewhere, everyone knew what THE SUPREMES meant.. If she thought Berry Gordy was going to conform to her standards and ideas, well someone should have told her she was nuts.. In my opinion, Jean is FANTASTIC on record, but on stage, not so much, not for what the group's audience had come to expect..

I totally agree.

[marv2]

I love the Jean records, but if she didn't like 'show biz'.she shouldn't hasve joined THE SUPREMES..unless she lived in a cave somewhere, everyone knew what THE SUPREMES meant.. If she thought Berry Gordy was going to conform to her standards and ideas, well someone should have told her she was nuts.. In my opinion, Jean is FANTASTIC on record, but on stage, not so much, not for what the group's audience had come to expect..

According to Jean in her video bio, she dreamed of being a Supreme and dressing like them, playing the top places. I think once reality set in, it all changed for her.

You know the old saying? "If you want to enjoy the show, then don't go backstage to see what they have to do to get ready...." LOL!!!

[marv2]

Detest,is a good word for it,but 2 0r 3 years,would have been a life time for Jean,plus Jean and Lynda turn into Jehovah Witness's ,and that made it even worst,she wanted out of The Supremes,out from Motown,and for the most part,out of show business,nothing could stop Jean,you see Supreme singer's like Mary Diana Scherrie Lynda and Susaye, loves Show business,they have the drive,that's why they are still singing today,they have the drive,to still be in the game,The Supremes music is Forever.

The worst thing as far as the Jean Terrell situation that could have happened is Lynda Laurence! She was a "co-signer" and most of all an opportunist! The more unhappy Jean became, the more chance that Lynda might get to sing lead [[in her mind!). Mary didn't see that right away, but Motown sure did! Some assumed that the thought of the Supremes leaving the company did not arise until Ms. Laurence came along............

[sup_fan]

i think there was a whole culmination of events that lead to the gradual demise of the Supremes in the 70s.

the most important though come down to 1) the group HAD to continue at least a little while after D went solo so that it wouldn't make it look like she forced them into retirement while she continues on and 2) NO ONE at motown was going to outshine diana. Berry was totally devoted to her and only her. there could only be 1 queen at motown. he quickly saw how she'd developed and grew within the early years of the Sups and post WDOLG. because of that, he invested in the group with the idea that he was ultimately investing in her.

Berry also had business sense and knew there was a lot of money yet to made under the Sup name. they sold a lot of records, commanded top performance fees and made a great return for 70 and 71.

things started to slip a bit though in 71 and definitely into 72. again, a variety of factors:
1. the move to LA
2. berry's focus on movies
3. Cindy's departure and another lineup change
4. the Sups image starting to become outdated - they were singing Cabaret, TCB, It's Alright With Me. still very much a Vegas act and becoming less and less relevant to the college age music buyers.
5. internal dissent - of course if the above issues weren't happening, perhaps the girls would have been fighting less.
6. poor selling albums and modestly charting singles - multiple issues here. yes i think motown made a mistake with the packaging of NWBLS and the label copy of Stoned Love. Touch should never have been a single. in the 60s, Berry was heavily involved with the group's releases and usually only the best was issued. plus company efforts were redirected to push each release. in the 70s, that wasn't happening as much. also i think the 4 Top duets created overkill. too many records, too many things going on, not enough focus. i love the recordings but 1 lp should have sufficed and frankly it should have been timed better. maybe the following year or something

[Bluebrock]

i think there was a whole culmination of events that lead to the gradual demise of the Supremes in the 70s.

the most important though come down to 1) the group HAD to continue at least a little while after D went solo so that it wouldn't make it look like she forced them into retirement while she continues on and 2) NO ONE at motown was going to outshine diana. Berry was totally devoted to her and only her. there could only be 1 queen at motown. he quickly saw how she'd developed and grew within the early years of the Sups and post WDOLG. because of that, he invested in the group with the idea that he was ultimately investing in her.

Berry also had business sense and knew there was a lot of money yet to made under the Sup name. they sold a lot of records, commanded top performance fees and made a great return for 70 and 71.

things started to slip a bit though in 71 and definitely into 72. again, a variety of factors:
1. the move to LA
2. berry's focus on movies
3. Cindy's departure and another lineup change
4. the Sups image starting to become outdated - they were singing Cabaret, TCB, It's Alright With Me. still very much a Vegas act and becoming less and less relevant to the college age music buyers.
5. internal dissent - of course if the above issues weren't happening, perhaps the girls would have been fighting less.
6. poor selling albums and modestly charting singles - multiple issues here. yes i think motown made a mistake with the packaging of NWBLS and the label copy of Stoned Love. Touch should never have been a single. in the 60s, Berry was heavily involved with the group's releases and usually only the best was issued. plus company efforts were redirected to push each release. in the 70s, that wasn't happening as much. also i think the 4 Top duets created overkill. too many records, too many things going on, not enough focus. i love the recordings but 1 lp should have sufficed and frankly it should have been timed better. maybe the following year or something
I agree on several things here. there is NO WAY that "touch" was ever a major hit single. Totally wrong choice as the follow up to "nathan jones"Up until this period the group were doing well. This was the start of the decline.
I also agree there were too many Four Tops collabs. I adore both groups but the albums were less than memorable and certainly ill timed.
I know it's immaterial now but i still get so angry about how things turned out.
Such a waste.

[BayouMotownMan]

The worst thing as far as the Jean Terrell situation that could have happened is Lynda Laurence! She was a "co-signer" and most of all an opportunist! The more unhappy Jean became, the more chance that Lynda might get to sing lead [[in her mind!). Mary didn't see that right away, but Motown sure did! Some assumed that the thought of the Supremes leaving the company did not arise until Ms. Laurence came along............

Totally inaccurate. Lynda was in the group on a probationary basis and therefore had no voice in group matters. Jean and Lynda became aligned because of their Jehovah Witness conversions. Jean became more and more unhappy with Motown's lack of attention to the group and Mary's seemingly inability to rail against Motown. Jean left three months before Lynda did. Lynda's being "difficult" came after Jean was gone when she met Pedro Ferrer, whom Mary said God told her Pedro was going to lead the Supremes back to the top. He smiled at Lynda but spoke very little English. She went home and told her husband she wanted out of the group too. This made Mary's situation a double-trouble and Mary has never really forgiven Lynda for bailing at a time when Mary needed her badly. Lynda, like Jean, could see the Supremes were finished.

[BayouMotownMan]

And I might add the thought of leaving Motown was introduced to MARY by the Four Tops. They met with Dunhill and liked what they heard. At the last minute Mary reneged, infuriating Jean who then said she wanted out. Lynda Laurence had no role in this.

[Roberta75]

Totally inaccurate. Lynda was in the group on a probationary basis and therefore had no voice in group matters. Jean and Lynda became aligned because of their Jehovah Witness conversions. Jean became more and more unhappy with Motown's lack of attention to the group and Mary's seemingly inability to rail against Motown. Jean left three months before Lynda did. Lynda's being "difficult" came after Jean was gone when she met Pedro Ferrer, whom Mary said God told her Pedro was going to lead the Supremes back to the top. He smiled at Lynda but spoke very little English. She went home and told her husband she wanted out of the group too. This made Mary's situation a double-trouble and Mary has never really forgiven Lynda for bailing at a time when Mary needed her badly. Lynda, like Jean, could see the Supremes were finished.

Thank goodness you are here to provide accurate and unbiased information.

Happy New Year to you.

Fondly.

Roberta

[Bluebrock]

Totally inaccurate. Lynda was in the group on a probationary basis and therefore had no voice in group matters. Jean and Lynda became aligned because of their Jehovah Witness conversions. Jean became more and more unhappy with Motown's lack of attention to the group and Mary's seemingly inability to rail against Motown. Jean left three months before Lynda did. Lynda's being "difficult" came after Jean was gone when she met Pedro Ferrer, whom Mary said God told her Pedro was going to lead the Supremes back to the top. He smiled at Lynda but spoke very little English. She went home and told her husband she wanted out of the group too. This made Mary's situation a double-trouble and Mary has never really forgiven Lynda for bailing at a time when Mary needed her badly. Lynda, like Jean, could see the Supremes were finished.
This is pretty much what i heard too, but i did not wish to start WW3. The truth can sometimes hurt and people need to realise that none of our idols are perfect and we all need to take off our rose coloured glasses and simply accept that there were faults on more than one side.
I will always love each and every member of the Supremes but i am also honest enough to admit they have all said and done things we may not agree with and want to admit to.
Well said BayouMotownMan for saying what i didn't have the guts to say.

[franjoy56]

I agree on several things here. there is NO WAY that "touch" was ever a major hit single. Totally wrong choice as the follow up to "nathan jones"Up until this period the group were doing well. This was the start of the decline.
I also agree there were too many Four Tops collabs. I adore both groups but the albums were less than memorable and certainly ill timed.
I know it's immaterial now but i still get so angry about how things turned out.
Such a waste. I know thing should have been beter with the 70s supremes, but I would hardly call the 70's Supremes placing 5 top 20 records on the American and UK chars through 72 wih Jean as lead singer hardly a waste. Their performances on tv were just as exciting more movement with the choreography i.e the tom jones show 1970, ed Sullivan 1970, flip Wilson show 1971, while the late 60's supremes stood wih less movement behind their star singer.

[marv2]

I know thing should have been beter with the 70s supremes, but I would hardly call the 70's Supremes placing 5 top 20 records on the American and UK chars through 72 wih Jean as lead singer hardly a waste. Their performances on tv were just as exciting more movement with the choreography i.e the tom jones show 1970, ed Sullivan 1970, flip Wilson show 1971, while the late 60's supremes stood wih less movement behind their star singer.


True the Supremes in the 70s were more exciting to watch. They appear to work harder on stage. I enjoyed Jean on stage as well.

[luke]

I loved Touch. I think it could have been a hit. One week it jumped over 20 points on Billboard. Mary should've sung lead on the whole song. Her voice lush and beautiful on it and sung with much feeling.

[franjoy56]

I loved Touch. I think it could have been a hit. One week it jumped over 20 points on Billboard. Mary should've sung lead on the whole song. Her voice lush and beautiful on it and sung with much feeling. that is true Mary could have carried that whole song as her solo debut but would have Motown promoted it better.

[REDHOT]

When Jean left The Supremes,it was said,that Lynda was gonna co-lead with Mary,and Cindy was coming back to the group,but things couldn't be worked out,so Lynda left also,and Scherrie Payne join The Supremes,and the ladies kept on moving,yes Jean and Lynda left,but The Supremes were not finish,Mary was right,by staying with Motown,because had they left Motown,Jean was still gonna leave The Supremes anyway,Mary was loyal to The Supremes and Motown,but Jean was not loyal to anyone,Lynda's probation was almost up,again things,couldn't be worked out,i'm happy things worked out the way they did,i love all The Supremes p.s Susaye Greene was Amazing.