If Mary Wilson Had Recorded "Holiday"

[Jimi LaLumia]

the "If Mary Wells..." thread led me to think..
if Mary Wilson had said yes to "Jellybean " Benitez , recorded "Holiday" and it became a hit, would Mary have gotten the subsequent singles that Jellybean gave to Madonna by default.."Lucky Star" and all the rest?..
while we're mulling over possible 'universe changers'.. I think things may have been very different..and the reality is if he had a hit on the first one with Mary , "Lucky Star" or whatever would have been next

[Bluebrock]

the "If Mary Wells..." thread led me to think..
if Mary Wilson had said yes to "Jellybean " Benitez , recorded "Holiday" and it became a hit, would Mary have gotten the subsequent singles that Jellybean gave to Madonna by default.."Lucky Star" and all the rest?..
while we're mulling over possible 'universe changers'.. I think things may have been very different..and the reality is if he had a hit on the first one with Mary , "Lucky Star" or whatever would have been next
Don't think Mary would have enjoyed the same level of success as Madonna. Mary is far classier than Madonna will ever be and I don't think she would have cheapened herself by resorting to Madonna's image which let us be honest is a major factor in her initial success. Mary would already have been too old to make a success of that kind of image by the early 80's. This is not meant to be a pop at Madonna whom I do admire, but I just do not see Mary being a success with these songs at that particular time in her life.

[Ngroove]

No, it would not.

Sorry, but Madonna is A) younger and B) would be more willing to promote "sex appeal".

I am absolutely not saying back then, Mary was not an unnnatractive lady, with unattractive voice, It still could have supplied Mary with a TOP 100, which would be her first by herself, but I am just being absolutely honest.

[Jimi LaLumia]

when "Holiday' came out, there was no image for Madonna, just a great pop song and a voice on the radio..her first video, as MTV came along, was for "Burning Up".. the success of the very first Madonna hits came out of the dance clubs, no one knew or cared what she looked like or acted like at the time,performance wise, she came out of rock clubs like the legendary Max's Kansas City in Manhattan.. Mary Wilson would have had an enormous dance club success if she had said yes, in my opinion, and I was in the dance club/ dj'ing business at the time..

[Jimi LaLumia]

the Madonna image thing took off with the second album "Like a Virgin" and her wedding cake performance on the First ever MTV Video Music Awards.. the success of the first album was based on the dance club success of the singles..the imaging came later

[Bluebrock]

the Madonna image thing took off with the second album "Like a Virgin" and her wedding cake performance on the First ever MTV Video Music Awards.. the success of the first album was based on the dance club success of the singles..the imaging came later
Interesting variation of opinions, and of course everyone is entitled to their own view on whether Mary could be a success in that genre. I still say no but the truth is we will never know for sure.

[marybrewster]

To play devil's advocate: has anyone ever confirmed this story with Jellybean?

Madonna recorded the song in February of 1983. Which means Mary would have "turned it down" sometime prior, perhaps in late 1982. Wasn't this around the time she declined to reunite with Cindy and Scherrie, to focus on her solo career?

If that's the case, it's just interesting to me that Mary would have turned down the opportunity to record anything.

And clearly Jellybean and Madonna ran in the same New York social circle; to me it just makes sense that it would have gone to her. What were the circumstances surrounding Mary and Jellybean even crossing paths?

Try as I might, without a major key chance, I just don't hear it.

[Ngroove]

when "Holiday' came out, there was no image for Madonna, just a great pop song and a voice on the radio..her first video, as MTV came along, was for "Burning Up".. the success of the very first Madonna hits came out of the dance clubs, no one knew or cared what she looked like or acted like at the time,performance wise, she came out of rock clubs like the legendary Max's Kansas City in Manhattan.. Mary Wilson would have had an enormous dance club success if she had said yes, in my opinion, and I was in the dance club/ dj'ing business at the time..

Different songs.....could have been different for different people....like "Papa Was A Rollin Stone" was number one for the Temptations, I dunno what it was for the Undisputed Truth....and "Love Hangover" was a number one for Diana Ross, while it was at least a Top 100 for Fifth Dimension, but that's about it.

[Jimi LaLumia]

as i stated here before, I confirmed this story with Jellybean,..I did a team up DJ gig with him on Long Island" Studio 54 fundraiser at Oheka Castle, and I asked him myself , and he did indeed confirm that he approached and she said no... coming from his mouth to my ear is all the confirmation I needed

[Jimi LaLumia]

here's my original post from this Forum a few years back..originally appeared 02/23/12
02-18-2012, 11:41 PM
#112 [[http://soulfuldetroit.com/showthread.php?1085-If-Mary-Wilson-had-said-quot-yes-quot-to-JellyBean-Benetiz&p=94202#post94202)

Jimi LaLumia [[http://soulfuldetroit.com/member.php?1559-Jimi-LaLumia)
http://soulfuldetroit.com/images/statusicon/user-online.pngSenior Member



Join DateApr 2011Posts1,603



just returned from Dj ing the opening set @ DISCO REVISITED/OHEKA CASTLE, with a very friendly and gracious John Jellybean Benitez as the headliner[[he even sought me out to let me know I forgot a CD in the booth after my opening set[[I was his opening 'act")...and I asked him...and YES, he did play the song for Mary Wilson and NO, she didn't like it...would it have been a hit for Mary/..we'll never know, but I can tell you that, as resident DJ at THE FUNHOUSE in NYC, Jellybean was a trend setter who would have promoted the heck out of a Mary Wilson single that he produced, in that then-trend setting club, which might have led to original Disco 92 WKTU giving the single airplay, and then?? ...who knows?...he didn't say that part, I"M saying that part...[[we had a fabulous, jam packed room at Okeha Castle in Huntington, by the way...)

[Jimi LaLumia]

Mary Wilson was performing at clubs in NYC, the cabaret circuit, including "New York, New York" , a club where Ross showed up to cheer her on, early in the 80's, she was doing material from her solo album even though she had parted ways with Motown.. Mary and Jellybean who was the 'it' boy of that moment in time, were being invited to all the right cocktail parties, etc.. and The Supremes wasn't that long ago at the time, was still a fresh thing, pre-Motown 25..

[Jimi LaLumia]

just found this from a former staffer at 'New York New York'..

"...
HellsKitchenJohn | Jan 19, 2015 | 9:05 amI worked in the NYNY restaurant for almost 2 years. It was an interesting time to say the least. Very glamorous for this 20 year old to work in such an upscale club. I met lots of celebs there. Goldie Hawn drinking with Angela Lansbury, Roberta Flack tending bar, Phyllis Hyman, Ann Miller, Nell Carter, Sister Sledge, Grace Jones and John A were great friends. The list goes on and on.

Mary Wilson of the Supremes did her first comeback concert there in 1980. Diana Ross introduced her. I was in charge of Diana's table. She was not pleasant, but who cared, it was Diana Ross!! I led her through the back stairwell up to the third level Cabaret room when the room swelled with photographers to take her pic. Andy Warhol and his entourage came in one night with Roy Cohn at the SAME TABLE! I didn't know who half these people were.

Paul Egger was the Maitre D and Michael Kirvan was the General Manager. Paul was cool, we used to call him the Swiss Miss, but boy, could Michael Kirvan be mean. If he didn't like a waiter, he would trash him in front of everybody and showed no mercy. He said to my back waiter, "you are so ugly, stay away from me. I don't want to look at your ugly face while I'm eating." And he had that thick German accent which made him sound even worse. Trust me, there was no love lost when he heard he was sick. I believe he may have been one of the first 100 to die. Paul used to wipe the phone down with alcohol after Micheal used it. It was like that in those days. We were all scared.


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[jobeterob]

It might have given her at least a chart hit; and she never made it to the Top 100 ever. So it would have been a good thing.

But it never would have turned in a Madonna style career; Mary just doesn't have the voice for that ~ not that kind of commercial appeal.

[Jimi LaLumia]

it could have turned into a Mary Wilson style career..all you need is one Top 40 hit ,really, and the game changes..It's Time To Move On!

[TheMotownManiac]

Holiday hit with Madonna because of her young teeny bopper voice like Cyndy Lauper. Mary's husky voice was ill suited for that type of music if it was to be aimed at Top 40. Let's face it, Mary has severe limitations to the commercial viability of her voice, yet she can sound so pretty on Can't Take My Eyes off Of You and be quite radio friendly. I don't consider Roberta Flack much more talented than Mary, if at all, and firmly believe Mary would have hit on everything Roberta did.

[marybrewster]

here's my original post from this Forum a few years back..originally appeared 02/23/12
02-18-2012, 11:41 PM
#112 [[http://soulfuldetroit.com/showthread.php?1085-If-Mary-Wilson-had-said-quot-yes-quot-to-JellyBean-Benetiz&p=94202#post94202)

Jimi LaLumia [[http://soulfuldetroit.com/member.php?1559-Jimi-LaLumia)
http://soulfuldetroit.com/images/statusicon/user-online.pngSenior Member



Join DateApr 2011Posts1,603



just returned from Dj ing the opening set @ DISCO REVISITED/OHEKA CASTLE, with a very friendly and gracious John Jellybean Benitez as the headliner[[he even sought me out to let me know I forgot a CD in the booth after my opening set[[I was his opening 'act")...and I asked him...and YES, he did play the song for Mary Wilson and NO, she didn't like it...would it have been a hit for Mary/..we'll never know, but I can tell you that, as resident DJ at THE FUNHOUSE in NYC, Jellybean was a trend setter who would have promoted the heck out of a Mary Wilson single that he produced, in that then-trend setting club, which might have led to original Disco 92 WKTU giving the single airplay, and then?? ...who knows?...he didn't say that part, I"M saying that part...[[we had a fabulous, jam packed room at Okeha Castle in Huntington, by the way...)




Thanks for posting this jim. Don't misunderstand my asking for an answer for the question of "has anyone ever confirmed this story with Jellybean?" You as anyone well know, there are hundreds of "Motown Myths"; I appreciate you validating the story.

[marybrewster]

Holiday hit with Madonna because of her young teeny bopper voice like Cyndy Lauper. Mary's husky voice was ill suited for that type of music if it was to be aimed at Top 40. Let's face it, Mary has severe limitations to the commercial viability of her voice, yet she can sound so pretty on Can't Take My Eyes off Of You and be quite radio friendly. I don't consider Roberta Flack much more talented than Mary, if at all, and firmly believe Mary would have hit on everything Roberta did.

I agree. As I said above, the key would have had to been dropped drastically to fit Mary's "smoky" voice. It's well been said by many that Mary shines on ballads; I don't see her faring well on a "dance" hit. "Time to Move On"? While I am THRILLED Mary is charting, it's not without the benefit of some strong beats and mixing.

[marybrewster]

It might have given her at least a chart hit; and she never made it to the Top 100 ever. So it would have been a good thing.

But it never would have turned in a Madonna style career; Mary just doesn't have the voice for that ~ not that kind of commercial appeal.

Apples to oranges, I believe "Red Hot" did chart on the Billboard R&B charts.

[johnny_raven]

Mary:

Yes, it did peak at #95 on the R&B charts.

JR

[midnightman]

Mary might've had a dance hit with it but as it was stated at the time, she wasn't a fan of doing those type of records herself, which is why she turned it down. I read Phyllis Hyman was also offered the song but Phyllis didn't wanna do dance material again [[she told fans to boycott the purchase of "Goddess of Love", her last Arista LP, because of its dance inclusions like "Riding the Tiger").

[jobeterob]

That rings a bell. The 95 on the R & B Chart. But the album never charted right?

Maybe Mary Wilson didn't even want to be this kind of singer. I know she yearned for the hits and for success. But she probably knew that first of all she needed to build some confidence before she could be a lead singer and then she also probably knew she didn't have a kind of voice that would have hits. Especially after Touch pretty much sank The Supremes.

But she could have been a jazz singer, like Nancy Wilson. Jazz gave Diana Ross her biggest selling album. If Mary had been able to go that route earlier on in her career, like from 1970 to 1985, her career might have been a different one.

[Jimi LaLumia]

Mary Wilson's career isn't over...never say never..

[bradsupremes]

I always felt Mary had potential charting singles in those unreleased sessions with Gus Dudgeon. In my opinion, "Save Me" had really strong single potential and could have definitely made it onto the Top 40. Even "Love Talk" and "You Danced My Heart Around The Stars" were strong ballad contenders and certainly could have charted as well. It's a shame Motown dropped her because Gus Dudgeon was onto something with those sessions.

I just can't hear Mary singing "Holiday." A song like that needed a young, perky voice. Mary's smokey alto just wouldn't have worked.

I am thrilled for Mary's single climbing Billboard's Dance Charts, but I would still love for her to record a jazz album. She could definitely chart on the Jazz charts.

[Bluebrock]

Holiday hit with Madonna because of her young teeny bopper voice like Cyndy Lauper. Mary's husky voice was ill suited for that type of music if it was to be aimed at Top 40. Let's face it, Mary has severe limitations to the commercial viability of her voice, yet she can sound so pretty on Can't Take My Eyes off Of You and be quite radio friendly. I don't consider Roberta Flack much more talented than Mary, if at all, and firmly believe Mary would have hit on everything Roberta did.
In my opinion Roberta Flack had more depth and range than Mary ever had. I love both ladies but you are quite correct when you say Mary "has severe limitations" with her voice.
Roberta wiped the floor with Mary in the UK in October and she is around 80 years old.
I still don't think Mary would have been successful with Madonna's material.
With Roberta's maybe but she certainly would not have made as good a job as Roberta did.

[Jimi LaLumia]

i agree she should make a move into jazz/standards for an album... in the vein of "Falling In Love With Love" which she owned when she did it..

[luke]

I just read that Dusty Springfield turned down My Love Life Is A Disaster then Mary recorded it. I guess she wasn't going to tempt the fates again!

[Bluebrock]

i agree she should make a move into jazz/standards for an album... in the vein of "Falling In Love With Love" which she owned when she did it..

That kind of material would suit her voice far better than disposable pop songs. She never was and never will be a "pop" singer. She is more a of a jazz and ballad performer.

[Jimi LaLumia]

well, since The Supremes were making pop records in the 60's, that would explain her trepidation in taking the front spot when Ross left..Mary might have taken a turn in the ballads/ soulful/jazzy direction in 1970 as a solo artist.. all these 'might haves'/'should haves'..boy o boy..

[Jimi LaLumia]

I think Miss Wilson still has that jazzy/blues-y album in her.. somebody should tell her..

[Bluebrock]

I think Miss Wilson still has that jazzy/blues-y album in her.. somebody should tell her..

I agree Jimi, but are there enough of us to support and purchase such an album?
Sadly I doubt it.

[marv2]

This is what Mary Wilson sounded like back in 80s. This to me sounds much better than "Holiday". To me "Holiday" sounds like something Lisa Lisa & Cult Jam would have recorded:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b__7CSPRyIM

[marv2]

I think Miss Wilson still has that jazzy/blues-y album in her.. somebody should tell her..

Have you bought Mary Wilson's live Jazz CD. I bought it and the DVD years ago. Splendid is the best word to describe it.

[TheMotownManiac]

You're right - I was getting carried away with myself. I caught two of Mary's Branson shows and she had some stellar moments in both shows. [[Should you visit The USA, I'd avoid Branson.) I know that Robeta's voice is quite an instrument, but Mary was up to the task for her hits. I have friends who saw Legends live and they were not very complimentary about Mary, but they are Dionne and Roberta fans and went expecting not to like Mary. It would be nice to get a comprehensive and objective review from you about Mary in Legends, as what I was told, what I saw in Branson, and the review differed quite a bit. Mary was in top form in Branson.
In my opinion Roberta Flack had more depth and range than Mary ever had. I love both ladies but you are quite correct when you say Mary "has severe limitations" with her voice.
Roberta wiped the floor with Mary in the UK in October and she is around 80 years old.
I still don't think Mary would have been successful with Madonna's material.
With Roberta's maybe but she certainly would not have made as good a job as Roberta did.

[Roberta75]

You're right - I was getting carried away with myself. I caught two of Mary's Branson shows and she had some stellar moments in both shows. [[Should you visit The USA, I'd avoid Branson.) I know that Robeta's voice is quite an instrument, but Mary was up to the task for her hits. I have friends who saw Legends live and they were not very complimentary about Mary, but they are Dionne and Roberta fans and went expecting not to like Mary. It would be nice to get a comprehensive and objective review from you about Mary in Legends, as what I was told, what I saw in Branson, and the review differed quite a bit. Mary was in top form in Branson.

Branson is a good Christian city filled with good wholsome family entertainers. Id think it was a real safe city and real friendly city to visit.

Roberta

[luke]

Until his untimely death Neil Bogart had planned to sign Mary and give her big promotion ala Donna Summer.

[marv2]

Until his untimely death Neil Bogart had planned to sign Mary and give her big promotion ala Donna Summer.

I remember that. It was a bad break for all involved. Fantasy Records tried to sign Mary as well.

[jobeterob]

Until his untimely death Neil Bogart had planned to sign Mary and give her big promotion ala Donna Summer.

Mary's whole career has been missed opportunities - Holidays gone sideways; people that wanted to sign her that didn't; tours that she wanted that never happened; songs that should have been hits that didn't get released.

But she kept on singing Diane's hits and made a living off it.

[marv2]

Mary's whole career has been missed opportunities - Holidays gone sideways; people that wanted to sign her that didn't; tours that she wanted that never happened; songs that should have been hits that didn't get released.

But she kept on singing Diane's hits and made a living off it.

No, Mary's career has been glorious! If you haven't followed it like I have, you missed a lot! Mary does sing SUPREMES songs, which are her songs too. She has done so, so much more that she should write a third book just for folks like you to clue you in.......

[luke]

What happened with Fantasy? And wasn't Mary close to signing with Atlantic?

[TheMotownManiac]

Branson is a good Christian city filled with good wholsome family entertainers. Id think it was a real safe city and real friendly city to visit.

Roberta

It is a very friendly city - especially if you are very light skinned and your opposite sex partner is as well.

[rod_rick]

I always felt Mary had potential charting singles in those unreleased sessions with Gus Dudgeon. In my opinion, "Save Me" had really strong single potential and could have definitely made it onto the Top 40. Even "Love Talk" and "You Danced My Heart Around The Stars" were strong ballad contenders and certainly could have charted as well. It's a shame Motown dropped her because Gus Dudgeon was onto something with those sessions.

I just can't hear Mary singing "Holiday." A song like that needed a young, perky voice. Mary's smokey alto just wouldn't have worked.

I am thrilled for Mary's single climbing Billboard's Dance Charts, but I would still love for her to record a jazz album. She could definitely chart on the Jazz charts.

Everyone keep speaking about Mary's smokey alto. He's My Man, Early Morning Love, Your;e What's Missing In My Life and the majority of the cuts from her solo albums/cds present another voice that don't sound light and smokey to me. As far as the Roberta Flack songs, I feel Mary would have handle those well. What I like abut both Roberta and Mary they don't need vocal gymnastics to sing a song well/

[Bluebrock]

You're right - I was getting carried away with myself. I caught two of Mary's Branson shows and she had some stellar moments in both shows. [[Should you visit The USA, I'd avoid Branson.) I know that Robeta's voice is quite an instrument, but Mary was up to the task for her hits. I have friends who saw Legends live and they were not very complimentary about Mary, but they are Dionne and Roberta fans and went expecting not to like Mary. It would be nice to get a comprehensive and objective review from you about Mary in Legends, as what I was told, what I saw in Branson, and the review differed quite a bit. Mary was in top form in Branson.
I am a long standing fan of all three ladies so i have no reason to be biased towards or against any of them. I just speak as i find, and much as i love Mary she was quite simply not on good form for the legends tour. She seemed to be all over the place. I don't know if she had insufficient rehearsal time but she was certainly the weak link that night. Having said that none of them blew me away , but Roberta and Dionne at least seemed to be focused. The only time when Mary did do herself justice was when she performed "i am changing", but that apart i am afraid it was a generally poor performance. I am hoping for a better show when she returns to the UK in the new year.

[marv2]

I just read that Dusty Springfield turned down My Love Life Is A Disaster then Mary recorded it. I guess she wasn't going to tempt the fates again!

Peter Stringfellow, big time club owner [[Stringfellows and 10s in NYC) had Mary to record it as part of a record deal.

[marv2]

What happened with Fantasy? And wasn't Mary close to signing with Atlantic?

She could not come to terms with them so she gave the lead to Brenda Holloway.

[luke]

Very interesting. I remember Brenda's album coming out for them.

[Roberta75]

It is a very friendly city - especially if you are very light skinned and your opposite sex partner is as well.

Well if thats the case i feel like taking my nephew and his husband to be.

Roberta

[BigAl]

Frankly, I never understood the appeal of "Holiday." I felt then [[and still do) that it sounded formulaic and derivative — just another piece of run-of-the-mill house music which did little more than keep the momentum going on the dance floor but it didn't cause me to take any particular notice. To me, there was absolutely nothing compelling about it. Thus I was hugely surprised when it hit so big. I just couldn't see why it did, and I still can't. Perhaps Mary had the same feeling about it when she heard the demo.

[TheMotownManiac]

i know you are objective and that's why I value your opinion. Mary must have had an off night. Most singers have them. One of my friends in The UK really dislikes all Supremes so when he was not complimentary, I took it with a grain of salt. Mary was so wonderful in Branson both nights, she might have had jet lag in England. I appreciate your input on this board.


I am a long standing fan of all three ladies so i have no reason to be biased towards or against any of them. I just speak as i find, and much as i love Mary she was quite simply not on good form for the legends tour. She seemed to be all over the place. I don't know if she had insufficient rehearsal time but she was certainly the weak link that night. Having said that none of them blew me away , but Roberta and Dionne at least seemed to be focused. The only time when Mary did do herself justice was when she performed "i am changing", but that apart i am afraid it was a generally poor performance. I am hoping for a better show when she returns to the UK in the new year.

[Bluebrock]

i know you are objective and that's why I value your opinion. Mary must have had an off night. Most singers have them. One of my friends in The UK really dislikes all Supremes so when he was not complimentary, I took it with a grain of salt. Mary was so wonderful in Branson both nights, she might have had jet lag in England. I appreciate your input on this board.
My pleasure , and thank you so much for your lovely response. As you say every performer has the odd off night so i am not about to pull the curtain down on Mary's career. I will be seeing her again in around 6 weeks time and i am sure she will make me forget the night in Manchester.
All the best to you my friend.