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bradsupremes
10-22-2015, 11:06 PM
I'm not sure if this has been discussed before, but I thought it'd be a good subject to revisit if it has. I've been listening to a lot of Invictus/Hot Wax recordings lately and it got me to thinking about the Detroit Sound and the Motown Sound. We know the Funk Brothers moonlit around the city throughout the 60's for Ric-Tic, Golden World, etc. and later for Invictus/Hot Wax. There are clearly similarities in sound almost to the point several non-Motown recordings sounded as though they were cut down in the Snakepit due to the Funk Bros., but there are also their differences. I know the Funk Bros. weren't on every recording cut in Detroit, but what exactly is the difference between the Detroit Sound and the Motown Sound? Is it the differences in studios, recording equipment, EQ's, producers, the usage of non-Funk Bros.? And exactly makes them different from the sounds coming out of Chicago, Memphis, Muscle Shoals, etc.

marv2
10-23-2015, 12:56 AM
Brad that is a good question. Give a listen to Jackie Wilson's "Higher & Higher" for Brunswick and tell me that does not sound like a Motown record? To me, the Detroit Sound, Motown Sound, Invictus/Hot Wax, Westbound, etc etc. were the sound of a "Region"That basically covered the North Central Great Lakes [[i.e. Michigan, Northern Ohio, SW Ontario, Canada and even as far as Buffalo and Toronto.) It definitely was created by local musicians, singers, songwriters, producers etc. If you ever noticed the difference in sound of Motown recordings that were done on the West Coast during the sixties and perhaps the early seventies, you have a big clue about what I mean by a "Regional Sound".

marv2
10-23-2015, 12:58 AM
Curtis Mayfield was the "Godfather" of the "Chicago Sound". You just knew when you heard one of his songs or productions. Eugene Record of the Chi-Lites made a major contribution to the "Chicago Sound", along with the Dells and Chess Records.

robb_k
10-23-2015, 03:01 PM
10447
The Motown sound and The Detroit Sound are made up of a combination of elements including:

1) Vision of the label's executives [[[[Berry Gordy wanting his recordings to sound great in auto speakers),

2) Acoustics in particular studios and related sound engineers' way of doing things

3) Particular arrangers used

5) staff songwriters styles

4) session musicians used

There are differences in sound from United Sound, to The Snakepit to Golden World [[Studio 2)

Other companies used United Sound, Correc-Tone, and many other smaller, private studios in Detroit.

Different combinations of Funk Brothers and other Motown session players were used by non-Motown Detroit labels, together with non-Motown musicians. Some arrangers worked exclusively for Motown. others partly for Motown and partly as free-lancers.

grapevine
10-23-2015, 03:01 PM
...if you go to Section 2 ...there's listed many of the 60's Detroit labels

http://www.anorakscorner.com/LabelListingsKey.html

...next

...look up each label here ...and see what sounds were released

http://www.soulfulkindamusic.net/labels.htm

...then check them out on youtube ...you'll soon recognise the difference between the slick and polished Motown Sound ...and the earthier ...sometimes more soulful ...Detroit Sound...IMHO...!

:)

robb_k
10-23-2015, 10:59 PM
10448
As someone who was a mid-teenager in 1959, and grew up in his prime young adulthood, during Motown's classic years, and whose first love in music is Motown 1959-66 recordings, I can almost always tell a Motown recording by ear. I've only been surprised a handful of times hearing recordings "blind". Many, many people say that many [[if not most) of the Golden World and Solid Hitbound recordings sound like Motown. But I disagree. Even though they have some elements the same as Motown, mainly due to using many of the same musicians, and sometimes using the same arrangers [[several of whom had previously worked for Motown). But that is only one element. They generally used different recording studios with differing acoustics, and thus, different recording engineers. Their producers [[sometimes ex-Motown producers, but often not, were often after a sound different from Motown.

I have only heard a handful of recordings that might have fooled me into thinking they were Motown recordings:

1) "Lucky To Be Loved By You" by Emanuel Lasky, recorded at United Sound for Thelma Records, produced [[and likely arranged) by ex-Motowner, Don Davis, and recorded using mostly Motown session players moonlighting, and almost all the other session players had been session players for Motown earlier in their careers.

2) "Happiness Is Here" by Tobi Lark. recorded at United Sound, produced and arranged by ex-Motowner, George McGregor for ex-Motowner Dave Hamilton Topper Records, and recorded using mostly Motown session players moonlighting, and almost all the other session players had been session players for Motown earlier in their careers.

3) "The Man Who Don't Believe In Love " by Marv Johnson, a Jobete Music song, written by Marv, was produced and recorded for United Artists in New York by Lockie Edwards Jr. and arranged by Horace Ott, and recorded using New York session players. Despite the different recording studio and New York producer, arranger and musicians, this sounded like a Motown record. Johnson, a veteran Motown songwriter, knew exactly what he wanted, which was the epitome of The Motown Sound. So, his song writing and advice or direction to his new York arranger. influenced the sound enough to produce a Motown sounding recording, even with no Motown musicians in a non-Motown recording studio.

4) "Me Without You" by Mary Wells, produced for 20th Century Fox by ex-Motowner, Robert Bateman, written by ex-Motown songwriter Sidney Barnes, and J.l [[J.J.) Jackson [[ who collaborated regularly with Motown Jobete Musics New York office staff in songwriting and arranging recordings in The Motown style,, and arranged by Jackson, himself, and recorded either at United Sound in Detroit, or in New York, using session musicians regularly used by Motown's New York Jobete Music office.

5) "My World Is On Fire" by Jimmy Mack, produced and written by ex-Motowner Mike Valvano, arranged by ex-Motowner Mike Terry, and recorded at Terra Shirma Studios, using mostly moonlighting Motown musicians, and those few who weren't, had previously worked at Motown.

6) "That Was My Girl" by The Parliaments, produced by ex-Motowner George Clinton, written by ex-Motowners George Clinton and Sidney Barnes, and recorded at Golden World Studios, arranged by ex-Motowner Joe Hunter, using almost exclusively musicians who were Motown moonlighters, and those few who weren't, had previously worked at Motown.

robb_k
10-24-2015, 12:46 PM
10462
We've got a very interesting thread going here and I don't want to see it get buried. I'm interested in other posters examples of songs that were so very much like a Motown recording that if you listened to it "blind", without knowing what it was, you'd think it had been recorded by Motown. And, conversely, I'd like to see lists of songs that many people say "sound like Motown [[usually because The Funk Brothers played on them) that you feel DO NOT have all or several of the elements of classic Motown cuts, and so, sound different from Motown.

To me, most of the Golden World/Ric Tic, Solid Hitbound/Groovsville, Thelma, Correc-Tone cuts [[and those are the major labels that sounded most like Motown) did NOT sound fully like Motown, due to lacking one or two or three of its elements. To me, Golden World and Solid Hitbound recordings didn't has as "full" a sound as Motown. They sounded more "hollow", or "tinny". For me, Thelma Records got the closest. Then, Correc-Tone Records. But, those Top 4 [[and a few of Dave Hamilton's) were a LOT closer than most of the smaller Detroit labels.

But, I'm curious to hear from others.

mowest
10-24-2015, 01:05 PM
Great thread! For me two examples would be Edwin Starr's "Agent Double-O-Soul" and "Stop Her On Her On Sight [[SOS)." Jackie Wilson's "Whispers [[Gettin' Louder)" has much more of a "Motown Sound," to my ears, than "Higher And Higher."
By the way, whose backing vocals are those on the Edwin Starr recordings?

robb_k
10-24-2015, 02:00 PM
Great thread! For me two examples would be Edwin Starr's "Agent Double-O-Soul" and "Stop Her On Her On Sight [[SOS)." Jackie Wilson's "Whispers [[Gettin' Louder)" has much more of a "Motown Sound," to my ears, than "Higher And Higher."
By the way, who's backing vocals are those on the Edwin Starr recordings?
10463
Good question. Wingate used Pat and Diane Lewis [[of The Adorables), Their other members Betty and Jackie Winston, and also, The Debonaires. But, I'm not sure.

mowest
10-24-2015, 02:30 PM
Speaking of Pat Lewis, "Love's Creeping Up On Me" and "Warning" are dead ringers for Motown productions.

robb_k
10-24-2015, 03:34 PM
Speaking of Pat Lewis, "Love's Creeping Up On Me" and "Warning" are dead ringers for Motown productions.
10465
Not to ME! They sound like perfect examples of The "Golden World" Sound. The Motown Sound is a lot more of a full sound. It has several more sound elements than do the Golden World/Ric Tic/Solid Hit/Revilot/Groovesville cuts. Ed Wingate, JoAnn Jackson, and Don Davis all wanted it that way [[different from Motown. The latter has the bass and drums more prominent, as they can be heard [[isolated) better in the more hollow sound.

Dennis Coffey should comment on this, as he was a session man for ALL of Motown, Ed Wingate, Solid Hitbound, Harry Balk, and a lot of the small Soul indie labels. HE could tell us the exact reasons for the differences, including the recording studio acoustics, different styles of arrangers and recording engineers, and the producers.

marv2
10-24-2015, 04:14 PM
Two words.........................Cool Jerk! by the Capitals.

robb_k
10-24-2015, 04:25 PM
Two words.........................Cool Jerk! by the Capitals.
10469
Yes, the musicians were ALL current moonlighting Motowners, and a few ex-Motowners. and you can hear arranger Mike Terry's sax, and [[I think) Uriel Jones on Drums, and a familiar guitar [[Robert White?). It sounds like it could have been a Contours' recording. The instrumental has a lot of really, crisp, clear and sharp instruments heard, individually, without much reverb, and no fuzziness.

144man
10-24-2015, 04:27 PM
Robb,

How weird that you should use the word "tinny" to describe the Golden World productions! My friend Mike and I used exactly the same word at the time when discussing Golden World even though we conceded that was the closest anyone had come to replicating the Motown sound.

robb_k
10-24-2015, 05:01 PM
Robb,

How weird that you should use the word "tinny" to describe the Golden World productions! My friend Mike and I used exactly the same word at the time when discussing Golden World even though we conceded that was the closest anyone had come to replicating the Motown sound.
10470
I'm pretty sure that I heard from several sources that JoAnne Jackson and Ed Wingate WANTED their recordings to sound the way they made them, so that the bass and drums [[beat) would be more prominent[[more up front) and clearer. Their best recordings weren't inferior to Motown's, - just different sounding. It was a matter of taste. Golden World Studio was a fine recording studio. The sound they got there was SO very good, that Berry Gordy bought them out -
NOT JUST to kill competition, but to get and use that studio.

Mike McLean told me that he always felt that Motown could have had a much better sound in their recordings, but Berry Gordy didn't want a highly sophisticated level of recording he wanted the sound that he ordered Mike to set up. I got the idea that if Mike had his way, we would have heard Motown using the most sophisticated sound engineering equipment and techniques used in recording the highest quality of Classical Music. That might not have been appreciated, listening to it through auto stereo systems of the mid 1960s.

I'm still waiting for Dennis Coffey and Ralph to comment on the difference in the two sounds. It would also be nice if Ray Monnette [[is he still with us?) , Mike McLean, Jack Ashford [[is he still around), Russ Terrana, and Robert Bateman would comment. We also had a few other ex-Motown sound engineers on this forum for some years.

I think we did have a similar thread years ago, with many of the people that had made the sound, participating.

soulster
10-24-2015, 09:03 PM
Brad, that's a loaded question, and everyone here is talking about the performances and production, but none of them have mentioned the obvious: the technical side of it.

The acoustics of the Snakepit, combined with the stacks of Pultec EQs, compressors, and EMT plates, among other things, were the chief reason Motown had such a unique sound. Even the custom-built consoles, and the Altec monitor they used had an impact on that classic sound. That's why no one else got those sounds.

Stax recorded their classic hits in an old movie theatre, usually cut live, and in mono, until 1966. Stax didn't do too much signal processing. They went for that raw, organic feeling. They captured the moment rather than sculpt the sound like most others did.

robb_k
10-25-2015, 12:13 AM
Brad, that's a loaded question, and everyone here is talking about the performances and production, but none of them have mentioned the obvious: the technical side of it.

The acoustics of the Snakepit, combined with the stacks of Pultec EQs, compressors, and EMT plates, among other things, were the chief reason Motown had such a unique sound. Even the custom-built consoles, and the Altec monitor they used had an impact on that classic sound. That's why no one else got those sounds.

10475
THIS is what I was looking for. Which I why I was hoping that Ralph, Russ, Bob Ohlsson and Mike McLean would comment on this thread.

robb_k
10-25-2015, 12:18 AM
Brad, that's a loaded question, and everyone here is talking about the performances and production, but none of them have mentioned the obvious: the technical side of it.

10476
And at least one poster above [[I, myself) DID mention the technical side:

The Motown sound and The Detroit Sound are made up of a combination of elements including:

1) Vision of the label's executives [[[[Berry Gordy wanting his recordings to sound great in auto speakers),

2) Acoustics in particular studios and related sound engineers' way of doing things

3) Particular arrangers used

5) staff songwriters styles

4) session musicians used

There are differences in sound from United Sound, to The Snakepit to Golden World [[Studio 2)

bradsupremes
10-25-2015, 02:18 AM
Did Motown change the recording equipment, consoles, etc. at Golden World once they took it over and began recording there? I've noticed in liner notes that around 1967 band tracks were being laid down at Golden World; however they sound like they were cut down at Hitsville. Would the sound be the work of post recording production during the mixing and mastering process or was the equipment changed to match the equipment at Hitsville so the sound was right at the start of the process?

I would love to hear Ralph and the guys discuss the technical side on the sound.

robb_k
10-25-2015, 04:12 AM
Did Motown change the recording equipment, consoles, etc. at Golden World once they took it over and began recording there? I've noticed in liner notes that around 1967 band tracks were being laid down at Golden World; however they sound like they were cut down at Hitsville. Would the sound be the work of post recording production during the mixing and mastering process or was the equipment changed to match the equipment at Hitsville so the sound was right at the start of the process?

I would love to hear Ralph and the guys discuss the technical side on the sound.
10477
I think it's a combination of BOTH changing the equipment at Golden World and the different mixing and mastering techniques. But, I'd like to hear from Ralph, Russ, Mike, Bob and any other technical people that were there at the time.

platters81
10-25-2015, 08:23 AM
slightly off topic....but im sure members who havent heard this will be interested...its a good job Berry Gordy never got to hear about this one !https://youtu.be/gZEz_xdpcTk?list=PLD-wEMqHWI2wzV4RFnFr0-7698ONrWaKC

robb_k
10-25-2015, 12:19 PM
slightly off topic....but im sure members who havent heard this will be interested...its a good job Berry Gordy never got to hear about this one !https://youtu.be/gZEz_xdpcTk?list=PLD-wEMqHWI2wzV4RFnFr0-7698ONrWaKC
10478
Interesting!
Motown would only have spent lawyer fees on this if it had garnered any sales. Given that I've never seen nor heard of that issue, it likely didn't have any more than a few hundred sold locally in Philadelphia. If it had even been a minor regional charted record [[top 100), I'd probably have seen it and bought it. The same goes for Gordy's contacts' eyes and ears. Had it experienced a modicum of sales, one of them would have noticed it, and brought it to his attention. Then he'd have decided to sue or not [[but only put out money, if he'd have a chance to get compensated monetarily, IF the purpitrators were making enough money to warrant a compensation award.

Perhaps the record is so rare because it never got released, because one of Gordy's contacts among the Philadelphia recording community tipped him off about it, and he threatened the label owner with a lawsuit BEFORE the record could be sent to distributors, and the label owner squashed the project before it got started?

marv2
10-25-2015, 03:04 PM
slightly off topic....but im sure members who havent heard this will be interested...its a good job Berry Gordy never got to hear about this one !https://youtu.be/gZEz_xdpcTk?list=PLD-wEMqHWI2wzV4RFnFr0-7698ONrWaKC

A total rip off of "Come See About Me"!

theboyfromxtown
10-27-2015, 01:25 AM
Never heard the Claudine Clark song before......I'm surprised they had the nerve to copy it so blatantly

roger
10-27-2015, 09:06 AM
I can generally instantly tell the difference between a Detroit recorded Motown recording and a Detroit-recorded non-Motown recording. To me the main difference is the attention that Motown paid to production, with particular emphasis being given to make certain that the rhythm sounded crisp and any strings or horns didn't sound muffled. Possibly some of this was due to the studio acoustics but no doubt all of this emphasis on production was to make the records sound good on AM radio.

There are a few exceptions of course, some of the Ric-Tics and Golden-Worlds have that very polished "Motown" sound, but generally non-Motown Detroit recordings sound slightly "unfinished" to me.

Curiously, to my ears, the closest that any other label consistently got to sounding like Motown was Brunswick with those Chicago recordings produced by Carl Davis. I think that this was all down to the similarly meticulous production standards. Take a listen to "Come Over To My Side" by BILLY BUTLER, the production to me sounds very "Motown", and the fact that there are stylistic similarities to "Reach Out" make it even more so .....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoRWe511vgo
Of course it is possible that some Motown session musicians were playing on "Come Over To My Side", they were certainly playing on Jackie Wilson's "Higher And Higher".

Roger

soulster
10-29-2015, 01:48 PM
10475
THIS is what I was looking for. Which I why I was hoping that Ralph, Russ, Bob Ohlsson and Mike McLean would comment on this thread. Good luck with that.

It may help to put one of their names in the thread title, because it is obvious that the rank and file of this forum doesn't want to talk about the technical stuff. What they may not get is that the technical details had everything to do with the Motown sound.

grapevine
10-29-2015, 02:00 PM
slightly off topic....but im sure members who havent heard this will be interested...its a good job Berry Gordy never got to hear about this one !https://youtu.be/gZEz_xdpcTk?list=PLD-wEMqHWI2wzV4RFnFr0-7698ONrWaKC

...another to keep Berry's lawyers happy...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMPx1fpvzSM

:)

theboyfromxtown
10-29-2015, 05:40 PM
I dont know how these people have the nerve to do it.

westgrandboulevard
10-29-2015, 05:54 PM
I did check it out on Google, and at least one link credits the composers as Stevenson-Hunter-Moy.

If that's true, I would assume royalties would go to them as for 'My Baby Loves Me'.

Whether permission needs to be requested for any change in lyrics, and whether that permission was granted, I can't say.....

sansradio
10-29-2015, 07:26 PM
Another egregious example, hot though it is:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9ldzcW0oXY

sansradio
10-29-2015, 07:29 PM
Exhibit 2 [[note the bridge @ 1:55):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdouqQ9zCqw

ralpht
10-30-2015, 12:21 PM
Brad,
Some tech updating was done at Golden World when sold to Motown, but not much. The studio was already in good shape. However this was before my time at Motown so I can't really say what was done. As studio manager I persuaded various producers to try the studio for basic track cutting. Most producers were hung up on the sound of Hitsville and were reluctant to try tracking anywhere but Studio A.. I finally convinced Frank Wilson to give it a shot. Next came Norman Whitfield. The studio began gaining popularity. The reality was Golden World was a better studio than Studio A but lacked the reputation that Studio A enjoyed.

When Motown began it's move west it was first decided to keep a small contingent in Detroit. The plan was to do a total upgrade to Studio B so that it could catch up to Motown L.A.s studios. After a few false starts the company decided to abandon that plan and simply close Detroit up.

marv2
10-30-2015, 05:04 PM
Another egregious example, hot though it is:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9ldzcW0oXY

"Love Is Like An Itching in My Heart" with different lyrics.

marv2
10-30-2015, 05:06 PM
Exhibit 2 [[note the bridge @ 1:55):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdouqQ9zCqw


This one is not at all like the Motown Sound. The backing track sounds like something you'd find on perhaps Westbound Records [["Westbound #9).

marv2
10-30-2015, 05:08 PM
I can generally instantly tell the difference between a Detroit recorded Motown recording and a Detroit-recorded non-Motown recording. To me the main difference is the attention that Motown paid to production, with particular emphasis being given to make certain that the rhythm sounded crisp and any strings or horns didn't sound muffled. Possibly some of this was due to the studio acoustics but no doubt all of this emphasis on production was to make the records sound good on AM radio.

There are a few exceptions of course, some of the Ric-Tics and Golden-Worlds have that very polished "Motown" sound, but generally non-Motown Detroit recordings sound slightly "unfinished" to me.

Curiously, to my ears, the closest that any other label consistently got to sounding like Motown was Brunswick with those Chicago recordings produced by Carl Davis. I think that this was all down to the similarly meticulous production standards. Take a listen to "Come Over To My Side" by BILLY BUTLER, the production to me sounds very "Motown", and the fact that there are stylistic similarities to "Reach Out" make it even more so .....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoRWe511vgo
Of course it is possible that some Motown session musicians were playing on "Come Over To My Side", they were certainly playing on Jackie Wilson's "Higher And Higher".

Roger

The intro is a rip -off of "Reach I'll Be There". Billy's voice though nice, is too weak to handle this type of production.

Methuselah2
10-30-2015, 08:25 PM
Very Marvin/Motown-like:

J. J. Barnes/BABY PLEASE COME BACK HOME
[Groovesville, 1967]
Written by Don Davis & J. J. Barnes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gryvwrv_sio

Thanks to MrJohnnyNumbers for this YouTube posting.

dennis_coffey
10-31-2015, 11:27 AM
I think one big difference in the sound when I recorded at Motown and other studios was the sound of the studios themselves plus the sound engineers. You also had the influence of different arrangers and producers. We did our thing but the arrangers and producers directed us on what they wanted to hear above and beyond the arrangement. In my case sometimes it was a guitar lick or feel that I created on the spot that they liked. Motown was the most successful company back then and I always felt most Detroit record labels wanted to be Motown. The success of Motown helped all Detroit record labels and independent producers because Detroit was where you went to get that Detroit hit sound. CBS and RCA wanted to build offices and studios in Detroit but when they discovered they could not use the Funk Brothers on a regular basis they decided against coming here.

theboyfromxtown
10-31-2015, 01:25 PM
I think one big difference in the sound when I recorded at Motown and other studios was the sound of the studios themselves plus the sound engineers. You also had the influence of different arrangers and producers. We did our thing but the arrangers and producers directed us on what they wanted to hear above and beyond the arrangement. In my case sometimes it was a guitar lick or feel that I created on the spot that they liked. Motown was the most successful company back then and I always felt most Detroit record labels wanted to be Motown. The success of Motown helped all Detroit record labels and independent producers because Detroit was where you went to get that Detroit hit sound. CBS and RCA wanted to build offices and studios in Detroit but when they discovered they could not use the Funk Brothers on a regular basis they decided against coming here.

So why didn't CBS and RCA open up when Motown left Detroit?

robb_k
10-31-2015, 03:10 PM
So why didn't CBS and RCA open up when Motown left Detroit?
10545
By 1972-73, the new trend in Soul was "The Sound of Philadelphia". Detroit was NOT the "happening sound". CBS already had a large presence in Philadelphia [[special relationship with a couple studios, and so, they didn't need to make the permanent fixed cost commitment.

sansradio
11-02-2015, 01:22 PM
This one is not at all like the Motown Sound. The backing track sounds like something you'd find on perhaps Westbound Records [["Westbound #9).

Point taken...but did you listen to the passage I pointed out?

midnightman
11-02-2015, 10:11 PM
I feel in a technical sense, the "Motown" sound and the Detroit sound intertwined but it's safe to say that there was no "Detroit" sound before Motown. Which is pretty remarkable to say the least. I definitely feel the difference though because Motown made sure its instruments were loud enough to blast through radio stations in the '60s in ways some other "Detroit soul" records didn't? But I'm quite a novice about this. :)

grapevine
11-03-2015, 07:59 AM
I dont know how these people have the nerve to do it.

...here's another doff-cap to Motown

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZ1fdGqQofg

:)

theboyfromxtown
11-03-2015, 08:37 AM
At least Smokey gets the writer's credit.

marv2
11-03-2015, 07:16 PM
There is a new thread on the main forum on Westbound Records which was also a part of the "Sound of Detroit".

144man
11-04-2015, 01:48 AM
...here's another doff-cap to Motown

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZ1fdGqQofg

:)

That's acceptable as an answer record rather than a copy.

marv2
11-04-2015, 10:15 AM
Point taken...but did you listen to the passage I pointed out?

I'm sorry I didn't, but I will.

marv2
11-04-2015, 10:17 AM
I feel in a technical sense, the "Motown" sound and the Detroit sound intertwined but it's safe to say that there was no "Detroit" sound before Motown. Which is pretty remarkable to say the least. I definitely feel the difference though because Motown made sure its instruments were loud enough to blast through radio stations in the '60s in ways some other "Detroit soul" records didn't? But I'm quite a novice about this. :)

Well we did have folks like Little Willie John, Jackie Wilson, Della Reese, etc, etc but you are right, there was no identifiable sound that said "Detroit" coming out of the city.

dennis_coffey
11-09-2015, 11:42 AM
I also played on Westbound Number 9. I used to see Eddie Willis, Pistol Allen, Johnny Griffith, and Uriel Jones on many non Motown and non HDH sessions back in the day. Bob Babbitt and I also did many non Motown and non HDH sessions together. When Joe Hunter left Motown, I did a lot of sessions with him too. He was also arranging. When Mike Terry and Jack Ashford were hired by Ed Wingate, I recorded with them at Golden World. Mike Terry was also a great arranger. I think the Detroit/Motown sound always started with the musicians who followed the work. We established the musical footprint and groove for everyone to follow in the recording process. I used Bob Babbitt, Uriel Jones, Pistol Allen, Jack Ashford, Bongo Eddie, and Earl Van Dyke on Scorpio. They were my friends and played on my session when I asked them to do it. I also used Ray Monette from Rare Earth and Joe Podorsik in the Detroit Guitar Band. This was another example of a non Motown, non HDH hit record.

marv2
11-11-2015, 11:29 PM
I also played on Westbound Number 9. I used to see Eddie Willis, Pistol Allen, Johnny Griffith, and Uriel Jones on many non Motown and non HDH sessions back in the day. Bob Babbitt and I also did many non Motown and non HDH sessions together. When Joe Hunter left Motown, I did a lot of sessions with him too. He was also arranging. When Mike Terry and Jack Ashford were hired by Ed Wingate, I recorded with them at Golden World. Mike Terry was also a great arranger. I think the Detroit/Motown sound always started with the musicians who followed the work. We established the musical footprint and groove for everyone to follow in the recording process. I used Bob Babbitt, Uriel Jones, Pistol Allen, Jack Ashford, Bongo Eddie, and Earl Van Dyke on Scorpio. They were my friends and played on my session when I asked them to do it. I also used Ray Monette from Rare Earth and Joe Podorsik in the Detroit Guitar Band. This was another example of a non Motown, non HDH hit record.


Dennis you were on "Westbound Number 9"? That was another favorite of ours and I agree with you in that the Detroit/Motown Sound started with the musicians with the majority of them living right there in Michigan. That ties into what I was earlier about "Regional sounds". The grooves you guys created were unique. Not unique but special enough that people across the World picked up on them and loved them!

Do agree that musicians say from the Nashville or Miami music scenes just sound different than our guys?

dennis_coffey
11-14-2015, 03:02 PM
I was on "Westbound Number 9". Musicians sounded different in Muscle Shoals and Memphis. They sounded different in NYC or LA. New Orleans musicians also sounded different. I had the chance to play with all of them.

huntergettingcaptured
11-16-2015, 02:16 AM
10462

To me, most of the Golden World/Ric Tic, Solid Hitbound/Groovsville, Thelma, Correc-Tone cuts [[and those are the major labels that sounded most like Motown) did NOT sound fully like Motown, due to lacking one or two or three of its elements. To me, Golden World and Solid Hitbound recordings didn't has as "full" a sound as Motown. They sounded more "hollow", or "tinny".

Oh, this is THE discussion I've been waiting for as long as I have been collecting Motown as a teen in 70's. I never could pin it down, but I could ALWAYS tell a Motown record from any other record company's output. Was it the bass? The Tambourines? The guitars? I don't know but I recall a station having a Motown weekend, back in '77 or '78. They were playing a huge amount of 60's Motown along with other classic 60's soul records. It was almost spooky, but even with never having heard about 99% of the records, I could tell within the first several seconds if I was hearing a Motown record or not. There was just SOMETHING in the sound. I had my tape recorder on standby all weekend and I recorded only the Motown tunes. As I got to know the artists and songs, it turns out I was right in every song I picked.

Robb, your posts nailed it for me. The Motown Sound has as much to do with the engineering and acoustics of The Snakepit [[in particular) as it did with the Funk Brothers' peerless music tracks. The first time that thought occurred to me was when I bought The Monitors' "Greetings" album. I was listening to the song "Time Is Passin' By" and I remember being just fixated on how good that song sounded. Not just the singing and music, but it was the WAY everything was mixed, so bell-clear, precise and exact. I kept playing that song over and over, noticing how the guitars sounded. I thought that was the sound of someone who is more of a tech, than a producer. It was only years later that I learned how Motown used engineers to mix those singles and albums and the use of EQ, compression and so on. BINGO.

You write about how the recordings of Golden World don't have as "full" of a sound as Motown's recordings. Another BINGO. I too would wonder what was it about Motown that their recordings had such a punch and rounded sound. Even when the recordings were sparsely populated with few instruments [["Where Did Our Love Go") the sound never came off as an unfinished recording. Also, I find in some of the Golden World recordings an almost "rushed" sound where all the instruments aren't completely in sync or in as tight a rhythmic pocket as at Motown.

There are some amazing Golden World recordings, like the first San Remo Strings album, Laura Lee's "To Win Your Love," Edwin Starr's recordings, but there is still just that something that to my ears, tells me it was not recorded at Hitsville. The only tune that totally fooled me was Edwin's "Stop Her On Sight [[SOS)" Granted, it may have used the Funk Brothers, but more than that, it has a completely Motown sound from the technical end. When I found out it was a Golden World recording, I was really shocked.

One song that has me scratching my head is by the Shangri-Las- "Right Now And Not Later." Hearing it, I thought it must have been recorded in Detroit, maybe at Golden World or another Detroit studio and then sent to New York/Red Bird for the group. It has a decidedly Detroit sound, even maybe a Motown Sound.

What a great thread!

huntergettingcaptured
11-16-2015, 02:26 AM
Two words.........................Cool Jerk! by the Capitals.

The two Capitals albums are full of some very good music. Not all of it a carbon-copy of the Motown Sound, but a few are definitely in that mode, and very good. One tune, "It's Goo-Ga-Loo Time" is really fantastic.

huntergettingcaptured
11-16-2015, 02:28 AM
Exhibit 2 [[note the bridge @ 1:55):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdouqQ9zCqw

Man, this is really good. I like that sort of driving-but-loping drumming. The fuzz guitar is excellent. Vocals are great too. I think that a lot of times, these producers were going for that Motown sound, and in aiming for that groove, a lot of good tunes came about.

Sotosound
11-17-2015, 04:25 AM
For many in the UK, "Stop Her On Sight" became part of what defined The Motown Sound because it was re-issued on Tamla Motown towards the end of 1968, becoming a top 20 hit. As a result it was also included in the top selling Motown Chartbusters Volume 3 LP in 1969, which possibly defined The Motown Sound for the whole of the UK thereafter. At that time, it was also rapidly followed by a real Motown Edwin Starr hit, "25 Miles".

SOS, however, sounds more Ric Tic to my ears, especially with the slightly bassier snare drum sound and also that other percussion instrument that plays on the 2nd and 4th beats of each bar and that sounds like some sort of block being whacked with huge enthusiasm. That isn't a sound that I've ever heard on a Motown track, but I have heard it on other pre-Motown Edwin Starr tracks such as "Agent Double O Soul".

The sax on SOS, however, could have come straight out of The Snakepit.

marv2
11-20-2015, 02:20 AM
Dennis, did you also play on David Ruffin's "My Whole World Ended"? Did you catch CKWW's birthday tribute to you last week?

robb_k
11-20-2015, 05:37 AM
SOS, however, sounds more Ric Tic to my ears, especially with the slightly bassier snare drum sound and also that other percussion instrument that plays on the 2nd and 4th beats of each bar and that sounds like some sort of block being whacked with huge enthusiasm. That isn't a sound that I've ever heard on a Motown track, but I have heard it on other pre-Motown Edwin Starr tracks such as "Agent Double O Soul".

The sax on SOS, however, could have come straight out of The Snakepit.
10756
That's probably because it was Mike Terry on both that cut and at Motown for many of 1962-early 1965 cuts.

Sotosound
11-24-2015, 08:39 AM
10756
That's probably because it was Mike Terry on both that cut and at Motown for many of 1962-early 1965 cuts.

Hmmm.

So if Mike was only with Motown through until early '65, who plays sax on tracks such as "This Old Heart Of Mine" by The Isley Brothers?

I ask this because whoever it is plays in a very similar style, as is very clear on the remix of this track found in The Motown Box, wherein every note on the sax played is right up front on the LH channel rather than being submerged in the mix until the short solo in the instrumental break, as was the case on the original mixes, especially the original single mix.

robb_k
11-24-2015, 01:03 PM
Hmmm.

So if Mike was only with Motown through until early '65, who plays sax on tracks such as "This Old Heart Of Mine" by The Isley Brothers?

I ask this because whoever it is plays in a very similar style, as is very clear on the remix of this track found in The Motown Box, wherein every note on the sax played is right up front on the LH channel rather than being submerged in the mix until the short solo in the instrumental break, as was the case on the original mixes, especially the original single mix.
10783
I think by personal choice, so he could produce as a free-lancer, Mike rejected Berry Gordy's offer to go on salary, and I guess he continued to do some session work with Motown even after he started producing sessions outside Motown.

But, Motown did have other sax players during their formative and early classical years. Beans Bowles was the first - from 1959-62 or so. I don't know who the others were.

timthemod
05-12-2016, 05:05 AM
Only just picked up this great thread. Some really interesting comments, and I find it interesting to know what Motown tracks were not recorded at Studio A, some of the tracks on the Monitors album don't sound like that, perhaps they were recorded over at Golden World, or at least the backing tracks? Then there's all the tracks not recorded in Detroit, I'm not talking about Brenda Holloway LA sessions, but odd tracks by the Supremes and the Miracles where they must have had a 'hot' track while touring and couldn't wait to get back to Detroit.

robb_k
05-12-2016, 09:28 AM
11324
We need Mike McLean or Bob Ohlsson or Russ Terrana to comment on this. But I think it had not only to do with the engineering [[mixing-equalisation and compression), and room acoustics, but also that Motown used duplicate musicians, often using 2 drummers, several guitarists, big horn and string sections [[which "filled in the 'holes' " between the featured individual instruments. You might wonder is that great drummer Benny Benjamin doing ALL THAT, and it might have been Benny, AND Pistol, or Uriel.

MIKEW-UK
05-12-2016, 02:11 PM
I always thought The O'Jays I Dig Your Act was very Motown. Produced by ex Motown Composer and Producer George Kerr in Broadway Studios, New York in 1967......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElXDbhsDSA0

marv2
05-12-2016, 02:20 PM
I always thought The O'Jays I Dig Your Act was very Motown. Produced by ex Motown Composer and Producer George Kerr in Broadway Studios, New York in 1967......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElXDbhsDSA0

They blocked it so I can watch it Mike. Darn it!

theboyfromxtown
05-12-2016, 02:35 PM
[QUOTE=marv2;333678]They blocked it so I can watch it Mike. Darn it![/QUOTE

This might work


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sRpRDkRDUM

MIKEW-UK
05-12-2016, 02:35 PM
Try this one Marv...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GMKmuYfUvY

MIKEW-UK
05-12-2016, 02:36 PM
Marv, John's link is the best sounding... Cheers both!

marv2
05-12-2016, 02:43 PM
Try this one Marv...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GMKmuYfUvY

Still says the video contains content from SME who has blocked it in your country on copyright grounds. Thanks Mike anyway.

MIKEW-UK
05-12-2016, 02:46 PM
Also by The Whatnauts on Stang out of Englewood, New Jersey....produced by ....George Kerr


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BnKROMH3Ls

MIKEW-UK
05-12-2016, 02:47 PM
Did John's link work?

marv2
05-12-2016, 05:28 PM
Did John's link work?

No Mike sorry still says the video contains content from SME who has blocked it in your country on copyright grounds. Thanks Mike anyway

thamilton
06-30-2018, 08:38 PM
All, I must say that I was confused at one time until my Uncle Al Kent finished his book, "Custodians of the Hummingbird" that depicted the real sound, "Detroit Sound" . You can purchase the book on Amazon and friend Al Kent on Facebook. The book will answer a lot of questions you may not have the answer too.

marv2
06-30-2018, 09:42 PM
Since the 1980s, Detroit has also been the home of Techno/Electronic music. some of best has come out of Detroit.

marv2
06-30-2018, 09:43 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit_Electronic_Music_Festival

marv2
06-30-2018, 09:53 PM
This has the Detroit Sound all over it, but it is not a Motown Record:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27PydomerjM

ralpht
07-02-2018, 08:13 PM
Rob, if I remember correctly, George McGregor played drums on Cool Jerk.

ralpht
07-02-2018, 08:21 PM
HDH used Tera Shirma exclusively after leaving Motown. They proposed buying the studio from me. They liked what they were getting out of the studio.

theboyfromxtown
07-03-2018, 03:35 AM
HDH used Tera Shirma exclusively after leaving Motown. They proposed buying the studio from me. They liked what they were getting out of the studio.

I wish they'd stayed there......

ralpht
07-03-2018, 05:06 AM
John, While HDH was going through their legal hassles with Motown, They booked studio time under the name Stagecoach Productions. Eddy Holland would approach me about buying the Studio B. Construction was in final stages and business was booming so I hit him with a rather high number, not really all that interested in selling. They passed on the proposal and ended up building their own studios.

marv2
07-03-2018, 04:14 PM
John, While HDH was going through their legal hassles with Motown, They booked studio time under the name Stagecoach Productions. Eddy Holland would approach me about buying the Studio B. Construction was in final stages and business was booming so I hit him with a rather high number, not really all that interested in selling. They passed on the proposal and ended up building their own studios.

Ralph, would you recall where [[location wise) did the Hollands end up?

ralpht
07-03-2018, 05:32 PM
Marv, if my memory is intact, I believe they relocated Invictus Records at the old Tower Theater in Detroit. Can't quite recall the location, but they built their own studios there. Just checked it out, Marv. The theater is located on Grand River, in Detroit.

marv2
07-03-2018, 05:37 PM
Marv, if my memory is intact, I believe they relocated Invictus Records at the old Tower Theater in Detroit. Can't quite recall the location, but they built their own studios there. Just checked it out, Marv. The theater is located on Grand River, in Detroit.

Grand River, ok gotcha. I have an idea where they were in that area. Thanks Ralph!

marv2
07-03-2018, 05:42 PM
Here's the old Tower Theater on Grand River, probably closer to it's hey day:

14389

WaitingWatchingLookingForAChance
07-04-2018, 03:56 PM
In making the distinction between "The Detroit Sound" and "The Motown Sound" it's interesting to note that Motown was billing itself as "The Detroit Sound" in '65 on their rear album jackets, then later as "The Motown Sound".

So even considering differing regional sounds, was it Motown itself that coined THE DETROIT SOUND designation?

marv2
07-04-2018, 04:08 PM
In making the distinction between "The Detroit Sound" and "The Motown Sound" it's interesting to note that Motown was billing itself as "The Detroit Sound" in '65 on their rear album jackets, then later as "The Motown Sound".

So even considering differing regional sounds, was it Motown itself that coined THE DETROIT SOUND designation?

I know it was my friend Al Abrams that coined "The Sound of Young America" for Motown!

WaitingWatchingLookingForAChance
07-04-2018, 04:22 PM
I know it was my friend Al Abrams that coined "The Sound of Young America" for Motown!

I've always thought that was sheer brilliance. I was a kid and saw that slogan and thought it was the greatest thing in the world. And no other record company had such a slogan as cool as that one.

I'm laughing because I'd sit and listen to my Motown albums and I'd take out all the covers and practically study them. I did an art project in my sophomore year of high school and designed a Motown album cover and I made sure to put "THE MOTOWN SOUND" triangle on the rear jacket as well as the "Young America" slogan at the bottom.

I got an A+!

marv2
07-04-2018, 04:35 PM
I've always thought that was sheer brilliance. I was a kid and saw that slogan and thought it was the greatest thing in the world. And no other record company had such a slogan as cool as that one.

I'm laughing because I'd sit and listen to my Motown albums and I'd take out all the covers and practically study them. I did an art project in my sophomore year of high school and designed a Motown album cover and I made sure to put "THE MOTOWN SOUND" triangle on the rear jacket as well as the "Young America" slogan at the bottom.

I got an A+!

That is a great story. I remember drawing a few of my favorite Motown covers back in the day.

WaitingWatchingLookingForAChance
07-04-2018, 05:34 PM
That is a great story. I remember drawing a few of my favorite Motown covers back in the day.

I'm sure nobody at Motown had any idea just how much of an influence everything they did had on a lot of us!