Berry, Syreeta and Jean

[luke]

Why did Berry wait until Jean was introduced as the new Supreme in public to demand Syreeta become the new lead singer? Because of how Jean came across that night?

[marv2]

Why did Berry wait until Jean was introduced as the new Supreme in public to demand Syreeta become the new lead singer? Because of how Jean came across that night?

No! and I thought I told this story a long time ago LOL!. I would relay it again now, but for same reason I did not do a "comprehensive" Supremes thread, I must refrain to keep the peace! LOL! Send me a private message ok?

[marv2]

Luke your box is full.

[detmotownguy]

Marc add me to the email please. Thanks in advance.

[marv2]

Marc add me to the email please. Thanks in advance.

Can't, your box is full.

[Kraig Diesel]

Marv2, did you receive my message?

[motownlover1964]

Hi Marv, I'd be interested as well in reading about this as it seemed odd to me as well. My email is jimnegri@gmail.com -- Thank you, Jim

[marv2]

Ok done and I am done. Thanks.

[supremester]

Luke: There is a person here who has told this unsubstantiated story about Berry trying to have sex with Jean, her refusing, and Berry trying to fire her. I didn't believe it then, and, since )reading it, I've had 5 dinners with 3 ex Supremes [[sometimes with members of this forum) and all 3 said Jean never indicated that. One, even walked the line by saying, "Berry was friends with her brother Ernie - he wouldn't have done that.

What certain people didn't discuss in their books was that, in the fall of '69, Berry was working with JMC, Diana solo, launching The J5, dealing with the crumbling Temptations and trying to resurrect Martha & The Four Tops - the dude had things to DO!

Gil told me that Berry & Shelley were in heaven when they found Jean - she was talented and perfect. Gil concluded and they were all relieved to know that the new group was going to be fine - especially after hearing her finished tracks. Now all Berry had to do was teach Jean to imitate Diana and they would be home free - except Jean didn't want to imitate Diana - AT ALL. Jean was her own person and had her own style. It never dawned on Berry or Shelley that a girl taken out of oblivion to lead The Supremes would ever question their direction - but Jean did. She was very respectful at first, but stood her ground as things went on and Berry had been talking to Mary and Cindy about dumping Jean for weeks. They did not want Syreeta. Gil thought Jean was great and would adapt or compromise. Then Berry was unhappy with Jean's style. She was not into glamour or fashion and there was no teaching her. It all came to a head that week and when her saw how Jean looked and presented herself next to the other girls - she wasn't special enough and history proved him right.

Mary Wilson told me that, looking back, Berry was right about Jean, but at the time, she didn't want another diva in the group and that Syreeta was def a diva. "We had just gotten rid of one diva and didn't want another." She also said, "Berry is credited with a lot of gifts, but his real talent is being able to know the exact perfect person for the exact purpose - no one is as good as him."

By the way, be careful when you quote Mary because she reads some of these boards. She got involved in a convo on another forum just the other day.

[BayouMotownMan]

God bless you Supremester for a totally accurate accounting of what happened. I too interviewed Jean, Lynda and Mary and this is the same accounting they gave me. Only one person who was around suggested to me that Berry delivered an incomplete pass to Jean. I didn't believe that story then nor now, not with Ernie Terrell in the picture.

Now if anyone would like to foward to my email what said person has dumped out there, I can then send it to Jean's management. He's already in a mess with Lionel Richie

[REDHOT]

I'm not gonna touch that Lol,no disrespect to you BayouMotownMan,trust me,Mary don't have the time for that,i know Jean pretty good too.

[BayouMotownMan]

whatever that means RedHot lol

[luke]

I thought we were working on being civil not trying to intimidate people? You just can't stop can you?

[supremester]

When I first read the liar's "story" I had already heard it all from Gil Askey, who loved The Supremes and Jean and while he had due respect for BG, he also didn't think much of him as a person - mostly because of the abuse Miss Ross suffered at his hand. Now I don't doubt he'd make a pass at her - he'd have liked to have someone to dick on the road with them, but the rest is hogwash and EVERYONE knows it. WAY too many peeps witnessed the struggles they had to suggest it was a sex thing. And I can see both sides: Berry wanted a replacement for Diana Ross and didn't think it wrong to tell her incessantly to sing, act and dress like she does. Also I can see Jean thinking she is her own person and not into "frizzle frans and frou frous" No one is to "blame" - it just simply didn't work out. When he saw her standing next to Mary & Cindy at Farewell, he could see there was not the spark needed and he was right. Their gradual descent began immediately but was cloaked by their 6 popular singles and many - too many, perhaps, TV appearances.

I think they'd have fared better with Syreeta, but who knows? You can't just replace one of the most iconic pop singers in history - Jean did her best and gave it a great try - but it just wasn't a good fit - why make up excuses like sexual covenants, planned obsolescence and lack of promotion?
God bless you Supremester for a totally accurate accounting of what happened. I too interviewed Jean, Lynda and Mary and this is the same accounting they gave me. Only one person who was around suggested to me that Berry delivered an incomplete pass to Jean. I didn't believe that story then nor now, not with Ernie Terrell in the picture.

Now if anyone would like to foward to my email what said person has dumped out there, I can then send it to Jean's management. He's already in a mess with Lionel Richie

[ralpht]

Bayou,
I really don't like where you're trying to take this thread. I suggest you cool it a bit.

[BayouMotownMan]

Supremester, please email me at Rickn225@aol.com. I have proposed a book project and would like to talk to you in greater detail.

[midnightman]

Lord, I can't... I can't do this. Y'all done found a way to ruin another thread...

[blackguy69]

Lord, I can't... I can't do this. Y'all done found a way to ruin another thread...

As always it never stops.

[detmotownguy]

Can't, your box is full.

marv please try again, thanks.

[marv2]

marv please try again, thanks.


Ok I will.

[captainjames]

I definitely can see why BG wanted her out because he could not mold and groom her the way he worked Diana. Most people would say I don't have to put up with this but Diana wanted what he wanted and that is why we got a win/win.

Its funny how Mary and Cindy said they didn't want another DIVA in the group but soon later down the line they got to see that Jean was a handful.

[BayouMotownMan]

Very accurate CaptainJames. Nobody controls Jean Terrell

[REDHOT]

People always say poor Jean,look what they[[Motown,or Berry Gordy)done to her,like you say CaptainJames,Jean was a handful,before Jean left The Supremes,she didn't get along with anyone,Motown Mary Cindy,Jean wanted out of Show Business,she wanted nothing to do with it,it had nothing to do with,not having a hit record,even if The Supremes would have had a hit record,Jean was gonna leave The Supremes,Jean is a moody person,if she was in a bad mood,she'd take it out on,almost everyone,and that includes her Supreme sisters,it's not poor Jean,they[[Mary Cindy Lynda) had to put up with Jean's moods,because the show must go on,i really feel sorry for Mary,because Mary had Jean's back,she wouldn't let Berry Gordy replace her,Mary really believed in Jean,i say poor Mary Wilson,i'm gonna say it again Jean Terrell wanted nothing to do with Show Business,trust me,Jean Terrell was a great talent,she could have been a big star,the entertainment world was not her thing,Lynda Laurence left The Supremes,with Jean,Lynda didn't know the different moods of Jean Terrell,she too found out,it's not gonna work,no one is gonna put up with Jean Terrell,i'm not saying this because,i dislike her,it's the truth,Jean had a great body of work with The Supremes,it's was great seein' her with her Supremes Sisters,at The Grammy Museum this year,Loved It.

[Bluebrock]

People always say poor Jean,look what they[[Motown,or Berry Gordy)done to her,like you say CaptainJames,Jean was a handful,before Jean left The Supremes,she didn't get along with anyone,Motown Mary Cindy,Jean wanted out of Show Business,she wanted nothing to do with it,it had nothing to do with,not having a hit record,even if The Supremes would have had a hit record,Jean was gonna leave The Supremes,Jean is a moody person,if she was in a bad mood,she'd take it out on,almost everyone,and that includes her Supreme sisters,it's not poor Jean,they[[Mary Cindy Lynda) had to put up with Jean's moods,because the show must go on,i really feel sorry for Mary,because Mary had Jean's back,she wouldn't let Berry Gordy replace her,Mary really believed in Jean,i say poor Mary Wilson,i'm gonna say it again Jean Terrell wanted nothing to do with Show Business,trust me,Jean Terrell was a great talent,she could have been a big star,the entertainment world was not her thing,Lynda Laurence left The Supremes,with Jean,Lynda didn't know the different moods of Jean Terrell,she too found out,it's not gonna work,no one is gonna put up with Jean Terrell,i'm not saying this because,i dislike her,it's the truth,Jean had a great body of work with The Supremes,it's was great seein' her with her Supremes Sisters,at The Grammy Museum this year,Loved It.

Jean was difficult that is for sure but I can never really criticise the lady because of the immense body of work she recorded as a Supreme and to a lesser extent as a solo artist. I adore her voice and if she was difficult then so be it. Most great talents are difficult. I know Mary was greatly frustrated by her but she also recognised what a special talent Jean was. It's very sad the way it all worked out.

[144man]

It's all rather sexist. If a man stands his ground, he's being strong; if a woman does it, she's unfairly labelled as awkward or difficult.

[luke]

Depends on what the stand is. Men can be difficult and women can be difficult.

[midnightman]

Berry doesn't deserve some of the blame here???

[BigAl]

Regardless of the circumstances surrounding Berry's disenchantment with Jean, it can't be argued that it was crappy for him to insist she get the heave-ho after so much attention had been paid to her having been hired. If that plan of his had gone through, the group would have lost what credibility it still had. Mary had the best interests of the group at heart when she refused to comply, especially knowing that Jean was already becoming willful. All that Berry's demand did was cause much distress to everyone involved. When he told Mary that if she didn't agree to move Syreeta in and Jean out, he would, "...wash my hands of The Supremes," I suspect he was planning to do that anyway, regardless of who ultimately took the job. The disagreement just gave him the perfect opportunity to make that pronouncement there at the very outset.

[marv2]

Berry doesn't deserve some of the blame here???

Sure he does. He truly did not understand what a phenomenal talent he had in Jean Terrell [[and many other artists that were neglected at Motown). This man was sitting on a virtual goldmine of talent in every area of his company, but could not or would not promote or exploit it. Berry had enough talent in the Supremes, Temptation and Four Tops to have had 10 -15 major superstars without ever going out and scouting for more!

Jean was a tempermental Diva sure, but she had the goods to back it up. She wasn't a mean person at all. She was just solidly confident in what she could do and the talent she had. Off subject a bit because this something that's been said here several times by her detractors. It was about her not wanting to fit into the glamour image......NOT TRUE!

In her video autobiography "Through The Eyes of A Supreme" Jean flat out states that once she and Ernie Terrell & the Heavyweights played Atlantic City right after the Supremes. She said that she noticed some of sequins left behind by the Supremes on the floor of the dressing room and went on to say that she fantasized about wearing the expensive, glamorous gowns that the Supremes wore and vowed that she too one day would dress like that and she did! So all of this talk about her not fitting or wanting to fit the "image" is untrue.

[captainjames]

In all fairness to Mr. Gordy he handpicked Jean. If the boss or the man who handpick the replacement decided that this was not going to work, I would have made sure I had him in my court before moving forward. This is why Mary has repeatedly said Motown would not promote them ..............No Berry told you he washed his hands of this.

If you read and believe Mary's memories she clearly states how difficult Jean had become. Berry was good at seeing things head on.

[marv2]

In all fairness to Mr. Gordy he handpicked Jean. If the boss or the man who handpick the replacement decided that this was not going to work, I would have made sure I had him in my court before moving forward. This is why Mary has repeatedly said Motown would not promote them ..............No Berry told you he washed his hands of this.

If you read and believe Mary's memories she clearly states how difficult Jean had become. Berry was good at seeing things head on.

No that is not true at all and what you said is only accurate as far as
Berry picking Jean to join the Supremes. Doesn't matter anyway because by the night of the farewell show Jean already had a contract. She didn't need to "make sure she had Berry Gordy in her court" whatever that means. If it were just about business and selling records, then everything should have been find now that Jean was in the group because she was a more talented singer than old lead singer. It was about what I said it was about and no coloring of the story or not addressing these huge gaps in what actually happened with facts that don't make sense to anyone reading it all these years later.

I believe what Mary wrote[[ along with roughly 3 million other people that bought the book. Countless others to obtain it from libraries around the World ) 29 years ago this month I bought and read her first book. I am still waiting for someone that was included in the book [[which means not Diana Ross fans....) to sue her and show me where she was lying. I don't believe anything, ever coming from known Diana Ross fans when it comes to Mary Wilson.

If Berry was so good at seeing things head on, then he would not have sold Motown in 1988 for $61 million only to turn around have it sold to PolyGram in 1993, for more than $300 million![[ http://variety.com/1993/music/news/polygram-buying-motown-records-109239/)

Face the facts. A lot of Mr. Gordy's success was just plain dumb luck and much of it was hard work and perseverance, but dumb luck deserves more credit than it sounds like you would be willing enough to give.....

[captainjames]

At any rate Jean Terrell was recording for Motown singer in 1970 and by 1973 she was gone.

[marv2]

At any rate Jean Terrell was recording for Motown singer in 1970 and by 1973 she was gone.

Now that is true and almost accurate. She was recording for Motown through most of 1969!

[midnightman]

Berry was so hesitant to put Syreeta in there for some reason but I think it was FATE for Jean Terrell to join the group. Even revising history, I can't imagine Syreeta Wright as a Supreme. I just can't.

[marv2]

Berry was so hesitant to put Syreeta in there for some reason but I think it was FATE for Jean Terrell to join the group. Even revising history, I can't imagine Syreeta Wright as a Supreme. I just can't.


I think Syreeta Wright was respected by Mr. Gordy. How else do you explain her being under contract beginning around 1968 and not having a hit until 1979 some 10 years later? Most labels would have dropped an artist after 1 or 2 years without a hit.

[REDHOT]

Syreeta would have been great,as a Supreme,and thats not taking anything away from Jean,i think Syreeta would have been a better team player,you have to do things for the team[[The Supremes)Jean was not a team player,with her bein' that way,it was not gonna work.plus you have to respect people,and the business,i'll say it again,Jean wanted out,and she didn't care what anyone thought.Done

[BigAl]

I suspect the sad truth was that, for Gordy, The Supremes had served their purpose, racking up big hits for the company, achieving unprecedented crossover success, and serving as a springboard for Diane's superstardom. In his mind, their heyday was over. The group had been struggling for a hit until he pulled "Someday" from Diane's solo catalog and decided to credit it to DRATS so Diane would be going out on a monster hit. After that, his interest was minimal. He had bigger fish to fry by then: grooming Diane's solo outings, plugging the J5, overseeing the renewed momentum of acts like Marvin and Stevie, diversifying into film and television. The Supremes, for him, were all but finished and he'd have been just as happy for them to have disbanded, but Mary was driven to continue the act and Gordy knew that there was still some money to be made by allowing her to continue it, even if he didn't care one way or the other, so he found a couple of potential leads and was content to leave it to the fates. When he decided Jean was going to be problematic and didn't "look right" in the lineup he probably felt that pulling a last-minute switch wouldn't make any real difference to the public and that Syreeta would hold greater sales potential and, more importantly, probably cause fewer difficulties for him down the road. He didn't really fully consider how it would look after the substantial media attention to Jean's hiring. He was basically finished with the act and was looking at the bottom line. When Mary bucked his demand to switch leads at the eleventh hour, he was probably so exhausted by the whole mess that he was happy enough to acquiesce while making it clear that he was shrugging the act off altogether and turning it over Frank Wilson and the PR department. Under those circumstances it's really remarkable that the act continued to thrive for another couple of years before internal difficulties eventually ensued.

[theboyfromxtown]

Now that is true and almost accurate. She was recording for Motown through most of 1969!

Very true. Someone wrote down her name in the session logs as Gene Tyrell! I found that highly amusing.

[captainjames]

Syreeta would have been great,as a Supreme,and thats not taking anything away from Jean,i think Syreeta would have been a better team player,you have to do things for the team[[The Supremes)Jean was not a team player,with her bein' that way,it was not gonna work.plus you have to respect people,and the business,i'll say it again,Jean wanted out,and she didn't care what anyone thought.Done

So true REDHOT
I agree with you 200% !!!!

[REDHOT]

Thanks Captainjames,trust me,Jean Terrell was a great talent,we loved her,she didn't love show business,at all.Jean could care less,to me as a fan,that's the sad part about it.so when fans say poor Jean, Jean is doing fine.she left The Supremes and Motown,and living a happy life,fans would love to see a reunion with Jean Terrell,that would never happen,because Jean is out the businiss,wants nothing to do with it,and the most part,no one is gonna put up with the different moods of Jean Terrell,not today.

[midnightman]

I see y'all's point. Syreeta was one of those people who was just happy enough to be in the realm of music greats. I mean after their divorce, she and Stevie continued to have a great friendship that lasted until her death, but in retrospect, I still couldn't see it. Maybe for aesthetic reasons? But I get why people could see Syreeta as a Supremes member, believe me, I get it.

[jillfoster]

When I first read the liar's "story" I had already heard it all from Gil Askey, who loved The Supremes and Jean and while he had due respect for BG, he also didn't think much of him as a person - mostly because of the abuse Miss Ross suffered at his hand. Now I don't doubt he'd make a pass at her - he'd have liked to have someone to dick on the road with them, but the rest is hogwash and EVERYONE knows it. WAY too many peeps witnessed the struggles they had to suggest it was a sex thing. And I can see both sides: Berry wanted a replacement for Diana Ross and didn't think it wrong to tell her incessantly to sing, act and dress like she does. Also I can see Jean thinking she is her own person and not into "frizzle frans and frou frous" No one is to "blame" - it just simply didn't work out. When he saw her standing next to Mary & Cindy at Farewell, he could see there was not the spark needed and he was right. Their gradual descent began immediately but was cloaked by their 6 popular singles and many - too many, perhaps, TV appearances.

I think they'd have fared better with Syreeta, but who knows? You can't just replace one of the most iconic pop singers in history - Jean did her best and gave it a great try - but it just wasn't a good fit - why make up excuses like sexual covenants, planned obsolescence and lack of promotion?

Just how is 6 top 40 hits "not a good fit"? You think the Supremes would have done better with Syreeeta and her Fran Drescher on helium voice? You'd be very much mistaken.

[jillfoster]

God bless you Supremester for a totally accurate accounting of what happened. I too interviewed Jean, Lynda and Mary and this is the same accounting they gave me. Only one person who was around suggested to me that Berry delivered an incomplete pass to Jean. I didn't believe that story then nor now, not with Ernie Terrell in the picture.

Now if anyone would like to foward to my email what said person has dumped out there, I can then send it to Jean's management. He's already in a mess with Lionel Richie

Oh!!! Oh!! Better watch out, he's gonna TATTLE!!!

[REDHOT]

Jillfoster,you got the right to have your opinion,it's all good here,we all,like who we like,and that doesn't make anyone wrong or right,it's just a personal opinion,ok

[captainjames]

Another what if would have been Syreeta writing talent. Berry let her write with Stevie and I would have loved a Stevie and Syreeta tune tailored made for the Supremes.

[luke]

I wonder why Jean joined the Supremes in the first place,apparently not really being a group type. I guess who could say no?!

[marv2]

I wonder why Jean joined the Supremes in the first place,apparently not really being a group type. I guess who could say no?!

No, Jean wanted to be a Supreme and always made it clear that she was always meant to be a Supreme and not a solo artist when she signed with Motown.

[supremester]

Well, we each have our own opinion, however, you are mistaken: JMC had 7 top 40's - so what? They came off a year with 3 platinum singles and hit albums and could only get 2 songs in the top ten - 1 for a single week and one maxing out at #7. All that is great, but a big step down when each subsequent album showed a steep slide in sales. They lost their Vegas gig forever in just two years. The public didn't take to the new group. Hit siongles? Thell that to The Marvelettes or Vandelllas - they had hits and had to work like dogs just to pay the bills. People buy a single by anybody cuz they like the song. They buy the album if they like the act. They buy a ticket if they really like the act. Jean didn't hit vwith kids or adults.Yes, I think syreeta would have hi just as hard on all top 40s except EGTRTL - So, yes, still, a bad fit. IMHO. I can think of another singer who some felt would not make it and she didn't do too bad for herself, so I'm sticking with Syreeta. Jean was and is great talent - so what? It wasn't a good fit. Berry knew it. The public knew it. Mary realized it eventually. It's not all on Jean, however - had there not been such a dearth of material at Motown, JMC might have fared better.



Just how is 6 top 40 hits "not a good fit"? You think the Supremes would have done better with Syreeeta and her Fran Drescher on helium voice? You'd be very much mistaken.

[Bluebrock]

The Supremes continued to be a big draw on the concert circuit here in the UK and both "floy joy" and "automatically sunshine" hit top 10 pop here. They may have grown cold in the States but continued to have a loyal audience in Europe and Japan. I don't think there was anyone better to replace Diana than Jean, and I think the group simply ran their course as indeed do most groups eventually, but that does not in any way reflect on Jean's awesome vocal talent. As regards her attitude well that is a whole different story..........

[REDHOT]

Trust me Bluebrock,The Supremes Mary Cindy Jean and Lynda were still doing good,on the concert circuit,here in America.

[marv2]

Well, we each have our own opinion, however, you are mistaken: JMC had 7 top 40's - so what? They came off a year with 3 platinum singles and hit albums and could only get 2 songs in the top ten - 1 for a single week and one maxing out at #7. All that is great, but a big step down when each subsequent album showed a steep slide in sales. They lost their Vegas gig forever in just two years. The public didn't take to the new group. Hit siongles? Thell that to The Marvelettes or Vandelllas - they had hits and had to work like dogs just to pay the bills. People buy a single by anybody cuz they like the song. They buy the album if they like the act. They buy a ticket if they really like the act. Jean didn't hit vwith kids or adults.Yes, I think syreeta would have hi just as hard on all top 40s except EGTRTL - So, yes, still, a bad fit. IMHO. I can think of another singer who some felt would not make it and she didn't do too bad for herself, so I'm sticking with Syreeta. Jean was and is great talent - so what? It wasn't a good fit. Berry knew it. The public knew it. Mary realized it eventually. It's not all on Jean, however - had there not been such a dearth of material at Motown, JMC might have fared better.

They actually had 8 Top 40 hits in the Seventies if you include "River Deep, Mountain High" still no other female group even came close in the Seventies.

[REDHOT]

You're right again Marv,what The Supremes from the 70s did,was not some small change,they keep trying to discredit them smh lol

[Bluebrock]

Trust me Bluebrock,The Supremes Mary Cindy Jean and Lynda were still doing good,on the concert circuit,here in America.

That is good to hear Redhot.

[luke]

So true. Such a feat and considering the focus having been on Duana so much. Can you imagine if Flo had still been in the group!

[captainjames]

Great to hear Jean says despite all the tales that have been told in books that she was asked to be in the Supremes the same night Berry heard her and that she love the Supremes and were singing Supreme songs the night Berry heard her. Also, even the fact tat she sounded a bit like her to his ears. So from that night to the farewell performance something exploded.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeHlYPNkt4U

[marv2]

You're right again Marv,what The Supremes from the 70s did,was not some small change,they keep trying to discredit them smh lol

This is why when the statement by Suzanne DePasse that they simply "sequined out" I knew that she was lying and the complaint from the Supremes that Motown was no longer supporting them and giving them promotion was true! They did everything to stop or to get the Supremes stop by using the excuse that the group had become a "revolving door" and that the public no longer knew who was in the group. They never did that to the Temptations.

[marv2]

So true. Such a feat and considering the focus having been on Duana so much. Can you imagine if Flo had still been in the group!

They had the potential to become even bigger than they were in the sixties.

[rod_rick]

My take on this thread is that if Syreeta was so great why did it take until 1979 for her to get a hit [["With You I'm Born Again"). Who's to say if Syreeta had become the new lead singer that the results would not have been the same or worse. Berry didn't do much for her as a solo artist Imo Jean was a good fit for the group.
Question, what made them add the old DR & Supremes songs?

[Bluebrock]

They had the potential to become even bigger than they were in the sixties.

Not sure I agree with that. From a personal point of view I actually preferred the JMC line up to any previous or future line up but it would have been impossible to sustain or exceed the level of success of the 60's. Even DMC struggled to get major hits in the late 60's on a regular basis. I do agree that Motown scaled down their interest in the 70's Supremes which was a crying shame but let's be honest here. The final pair of Jean led albums were much weaker than "ro", "nwbls" and touch". The Jimmy Webb album was a mess with no major hits on it. No amount of support could rescue that album.

[marv2]

Not sure I agree with that. From a personal point of view I actually preferred the JMC line up to any previous or future line up but it would have been impossible to sustain or exceed the level of success of the 60's. Even DMC struggled to get major hits in the late 60's on a regular basis. I do agree that Motown scaled down their interest in the 70's Supremes which was a crying shame but let's be honest here. The final pair of Jean led albums were much weaker than "ro", "nwbls" and touch". The Jimmy Webb album was a mess with no major hits on it. No amount of support could rescue that album.


They may have struggled to get a hit in the late sixties, but they got a big hit first time out with Jean Terrell! I also could see them branching out more into acting from the skits I saw on the Flip Wilson Show, etc. They moved beyond just endorsing products to promoting their own. Yeah, with the right support I could imagine the group becoming bigger in the 70s.

[Bluebrock]

They may have struggled to get a hit in the late sixties, but they got a big hit first time out with Jean Terrell! I also could see them branching out more into acting from the skits I saw on the Flip Wilson Show, etc. They moved beyond just endorsing products to promoting their own. Yeah, with the right support I could imagine the group becoming bigger in the 70s.

One thing we can agree on - The 70's Supremes suffered from poor promotion from 1972 onwards. It is impossible to say for sure what could have been, and maybe with stronger material the Jean led group could have lasted for longer but I remain unconvinced. Motown did get behind the "high energy" album but by that time it was too little too late and Jean was sadly long gone.

[midnightman]

My take on this thread is that if Syreeta was so great why did it take until 1979 for her to get a hit [["With You I'm Born Again"). Who's to say if Syreeta had become the new lead singer that the results would not have been the same or worse. Berry didn't do much for her as a solo artist Imo Jean was a good fit for the group.
Question, what made them add the old DR & Supremes songs?

Motown didn't know what to do with her. Stevie Wonder produced two great albums on her that barely got promotion. Leon Ware tried to produce a hit for Syreeta [[following his success with Marvin Gaye and Minnie Riperton) and that went unrecognized as well. Motown in the '70s didn't work on their artists as much as they used to in the '60s.

[rod_rick]

Motown didn't know what to do with her. Stevie Wonder produced two great albums on her that barely got promotion. Leon Ware tried to produce a hit for Syreeta [[following his success with Marvin Gaye and Minnie Riperton) and that went unrecognized as well. Motown in the '70s didn't work on their artists as much as they used to in the '60s.

Thanks for the reply. Didn't know about the Leon Ware lp. Any idea why JML went back to the DR & Supremes songs? Their set list from 70 to early 72 was pretty good.

[sup_fan]

from what i've heard there was a sort of "knee jerk" reaction by mid 72 or so. basically like "whoa things seem to be sliding here with lack of mega hits and all - maybe we've strayed TOO FAR from the DRATS image and kittenish, girl group vegas stuff"

obviously that's a simplification of it. the girls had a strong 70 but 71 was weaker - only Nathan Jones a hit. Touch and You Gotta Have love failed. FJ did ok in very late 71/early 72. but then cindy left, Auto Sun and Wonderful Sweet didn't do much. I Guess was a bust. also the albums did increasingly worse. the 4 Tops duets bombed [[outside of the first single), New Ways sold poorly and Touch did even worse. the DRATS struggled a bit but their lowest singles and lps did better than Touch, Gotta have Love, sweet love Bad weather, i guess.

[supremester]

JMC/JML had 7 top 40's: Ladder, Everybody's, Stoned, River, Nathan, Floy & Automatically. 7 top 40 hits - ironically the same number Diana had in the same time frame [[If not counting Special Part Of Me.) Up The Ladder was not a big hit at all, it was a hit, period. One week at #10 that no one knows now. For many, many years they didn't even have a hits package - you could buy Ladder on a Yesteryear 45 for a while or not at all.

Problem was that their LP sales - the true mark of support for an act nosedived immediately and never recovered. 25,68,116,85,155,54,160,129. They never caught up where DR&TS left off in the concert circuit. They had no "A" List club dates at all, no arenas anymore, just smaller venues and hotel rooms outside of NYC. The public never accepted them like before and I think it was cuz Jean had no spark - JMC were matronly and looked old next to Honey Cone, Labelle, 3 Degrees, Love Unlimited, Pointers - JML was an improvement but they were still wearing huge old show gowns and had zero street cred. They should have left Motown, altered their name like The J5 did and tried a fresh start like The Tops & Spinners. It worked for them, not The Tempts, but you never know until you try. She made a lot of bad decisions, then blamed it all on lack of promotion and the inanity of Berry's fear JMC would be bigger than Diana or some such rot. anyone who knows anything about BG [[without getting their info from Dreamgirl) would know there's nothing BG would have liked better than JMC to give Miss Ross a run for her money - financially and competitively.

[marv2]

JMC/JML had 7 top 40's: Ladder, Everybody's, Stoned, River, Nathan, Floy & Automatically. 7 top 40 hits - ironically the same number Diana had in the same time frame [[If not counting Special Part Of Me.) Up The Ladder was not a big hit at all, it was a hit, period. One week at #10 that no one knows now. For many, many years they didn't even have a hits package - you could buy Ladder on a Yesteryear 45 for a while or not at all.

Problem was that their LP sales - the true mark of support for an act nosedived immediately and never recovered. 25,68,116,85,155,54,160,129. They never caught up where DR&TS left off in the concert circuit. They had no "A" List club dates at all, no arenas anymore, just smaller venues and hotel rooms outside of NYC. The public never accepted them like before and I think it was cuz Jean had no spark - JMC were matronly and looked old next to Honey Cone, Labelle, 3 Degrees, Love Unlimited, Pointers - JML was an improvement but they were still wearing huge old show gowns and had zero street cred. They should have left Motown, altered their name like The J5 did and tried a fresh start like The Tops & Spinners. It worked for them, not The Tempts, but you never know until you try. She made a lot of bad decisions, then blamed it all on lack of promotion and the inanity of Berry's fear JMC would be bigger than Diana or some such rot. anyone who knows anything about BG [[without getting their info from Dreamgirl) would know there's nothing BG would have liked better than JMC to give Miss Ross a run for her money - financially and competitively.

Yeah and Mary Wilson, Scherrie Payne, Susaye Greene [[& Cindy Birdsong if you want to get technical...) had one in "I'm Gonna Let My Heart Do the Walking" which made [[8) EIGHT for the Supremes in the 1970s making the most successful female group of the decade in terms of number of Top 40 hits. They had a number one R&B Hit with "Stoned Love".

[marv2]

JML was an improvement but they were still wearing huge old show gowns and had zero street cred.

Oh they had plenty of "Street cred"...........................just not on your street!

These dancers are NOT faking the funk! LOL!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxUTOgfAMvQ

[marv2]

They were not kidding around when they jammed to this one either in the 70s


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REZS7pLLmvc

[marv2]

I don't know about anyone else, but I do know that the black community still loved them and loved their music even more in the 70s because it was more soulful and not that weak pop shit they were starting to perform regularly by late 60s. They made the covers of multiple black publications, multiple times in the 70s!

Whenever you hear a black woman say "go on girl" [[as you'll hear from some of the female dancers in the above clip), you know somebody's gettin' down and that somebody is Jean with the Supremes....! LOL!

[marv2]

Between 1970 -77 The Supremes scored [[9) NINE Top 40 R&B hits more than any other female group in the 70's.

[REDHOT]

Hey Marv and other,please don't respond to him,hes trying to start trouble and mess,don't fall for his game.

[marv2]

Here's one of my favorites of their 8 Top 40's...."Automatically Sunshine"!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLdWfO0lip4&list=RDREZS7pLLmvc&index=12

[marv2]

Hey Marv and other,please don't respond to him,hes trying to start trouble and mess,don't fall for his game.


I know you are right. It's pretty hard for him to disguise his trouble making ways. Most of it doesn't even make sense so I chuckle a little at it, hehehehehehehehehe!

[luke]

Thank you Marv! Never seen this Bad Weather performance on soul train. Is it new? Jean is perfect! Wow! And Mary is such a great dancer!! How high did Bad Weather get on soul chart?

[jobeterob]

None of the 70's Supremes albums sold much; they just sold worse and worse and worse. Every single got full page Billboard and Cashbox ads ~ so somebody paid for them; I guess ultimately the Supremes because they had to pay for all of that.

But still, success just slipped away.

I highly doubt Syreeta would have made a difference and the fact is it just didn't happen.

[midnightman]

That ST performance of Bad Weather is the JAM!

The Supremes' 1970s success speaks for itself, I think!

[honest man]

I don't know about anyone else, but I do know the black community still loved them and loved their music even more in the 70s because it soulful and not the weak pop shit they were starting to perform regularly by late 60s. They made the covers of multiple black publications multiple times in the 70s!

Whenever you hear you hear a black woman say "go on girl" [[as you'll hear from some of the female dancers in the above clip), you know somebody's gettin' down and that somebody is Jean with the Supremes....! LOL!

Maybe that was the problem ,all the years Motown guided them to crossover and they ditched it,whatever your opinion, mine is nothing to do with race they had run their chart lifespan end off.Jesus why does everything come back to colour etc with some people.

[marv2]

Thank you Marv! Never seen this Bad Weather performance on soul train. Is it new? Jean is perfect! Wow! And Mary is such a great dancer!! How high did Bad Weather get on soul chart?

Nah, it's been on Youtube for a while. I remember when I first saw it on TV. I was like, WTF? I didn't even know they were able to get down like that! LOL! and they were singing live!. Oh yeah, Mary's been to a house party or two. The dancing was much more funky than the little hand movements they were known for back in the 60s.

[marv2]

That ST performance of Bad Weather is the JAM!

The Supremes' 1970s success speaks for itself, I think!

They were superb! It is so nice that so much of it has been preserved on film and video to show just how great they were.
It eliminates the need to argue that fact!

[marv2]

The Supremes were still putting it down on up into the 70s! They had the goods to continue on for years afterwards as well. From 1976:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeDik6S53HE

[midnightman]

They were superb! It is so nice that so much of it has been preserved on film and video to show just how great they were.
It eliminates the need to argue that fact!

Yep. Some folks wanna think the Supremes didn't matter after the '60s but they did.

[midnightman]

Nah, it's been on Youtube for a while. I remember when I first saw it on TV. I was like, WTF? I didn't even know they were able to get down like that! LOL! and they were singing live!. Oh yeah, Mary's been to a house party or two. The dancing was much more funky than the little hand movements they were known for back in the 60s.

Yeah I remember when it was first posted in the olden days of YouTube before labels went copyright nuts. LOL :) Shocked it's still on here, which is a good thing. I think I first saw it on Dailymotion because YT actually did block it for a while and then unblocked it.

[supremester]

He's not trying to start anything, Missy - I am discussing the thread and why I feel Syreeta would have been a better choice. Why are you attacking me for stating my opinion? Just last week you were sticking up for someone writing anti Ross things because it was his opinion and all opinions should be respected - why be such a hypocrite? I'm not even saying anything bad about anyone - just stating the facts that JMC weren't that big of a record act - even Jean was complaining about how little money they were making - why are you whining and crying about this simple discussion? I liked JMC - I bought the records and had the slightly tacky Right On poster on my bedroom door. I don't throw catatonic tantrums if someone writes Sorry Doesn't Always make it Right or Bless You didn't hit - cuz they didn't - it's not exactly bad news, 45 years later, hun. You talk a good game, but you don't walk the walk, Antoinette. Is that why they named a home perm after you - because you permanently repeat the same thing over and over whenever anyone writes something you don't like about Mary???? If I wanted to get neggy about la Mare, I'd have lots to say about recent occurrences but I ain't even brought it up 'cos I'm trying not to start trouble. I like this topic. I discussed it with Mary and she has agreed Berry was right about Jean - although she didn't think so at the time.



Hey Marv and other,please don't respond to him,hes trying to start trouble and mess,don't fall for his game.

[marv2]

Yep. Some folks wanna think the Supremes didn't matter after the '60s but they did.


I agree Midnightman, but I'd like to add that there also people that WANTED others to think that the Supremes did not matter after the 60s. Think about that and think about the folks that had and have been promoting that idea!

[midnightman]

^ Can't argue with that, marv.

[marv2]

^ Can't argue with that, marv.

It's like this. If I tell you over and over and over that somethings not good, after a while, you might start to believe it. I remember fans back at the time being frustrated and confused over this. We could see with our eyes and hear with our eyes that the ladies were great!

[supremester]

I think all of Jean's live performances of Bad Weather are light years ahead of her recorded release. I like this, like Kate Smith better and I think they did a killer one on Mike Douglas or Sonny & Cher. Here is my fave Jean TV performance ever - she's every inch the diva they needed, but it just happened too late. her hair & makeup are perfect, her physical & vocal performance are stunning - and her hair works perfectly with that neck line. Did they do Bad weather on this? The sound is rough, but the exquisite vocal shines through.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zt7qxFOH5Z4

[QUOTE=marv2;307780]They were not kidding around when they jammed to this one either in the 70s

[captainjames]

He's not trying to start anything, Missy - I am discussing the thread and why I feel Syreeta would have been a better choice. Why are you attacking me for stating my opinion? Just last week you were sticking up for someone writing anti Ross things because it was his opinion and all opinions should be respected - why be such a hypocrite? I'm not even saying anything bad about anyone - just stating the facts that JMC weren't that big of a record act - even Jean was complaining about how little money they were making - why are you whining and crying about this simple discussion? I liked JMC - I bought the records and had the slightly tacky Right On poster on my bedroom door. I don't throw catatonic tantrums if someone writes Sorry Doesn't Always make it Right or Bless You didn't hit - cuz they didn't - it's not exactly bad news, 45 years later, hun. You talk a good game, but you don't walk the walk, Antoinette. Is that why they named a home perm after you - because you permanently repeat the same thing over and over whenever anyone writes something you don't like about Mary???? If I wanted to get neggy about la Mare, I'd have lots to say about recent occurrences but I ain't even brought it up 'cos I'm trying not to start trouble. I like this topic. I discussed it with Mary and she has agreed Berry was right about Jean - although she didn't think so at the time.

You are not the only one that Mary has admitted that Gordy was right in his premonition or feelings on Jean. Mary was caught between a rock and a hard place. I am glad still that she stayed with Motown. Jean was a great singer but no one was interested in hearing Jean with the heavyweights. It was Gordy who saw her, approached her and got her to Motown.

[ralpht]

Okay, I'm sensing a wee bit of tension above. This is a good thread gang. Keep it that way.

[midnightman]

It's like this. If I tell you over and over and over that somethings not good, after a while, you might start to believe it. I remember fans back at the time being frustrated and confused over this. We could see with our eyes and hear with our eyes that the ladies were great!

I agree. They were fantastic.

[midnightman]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_PhaMcqj6Q

Love the extended version of this!

[supremester]

if you would PLEASE ask Redhot to stop attacking me and anyone else whpo hints at something he doesn't like, there would be none. He has posted the same thing, usually calling me names for a year now - then telling people to ignore me.



Okay, I'm sensing a wee bit of tension above. This is a good thread gang. Keep it that way.

[BayouMotownMan]

I'll jump in here and perhaps my friend Ralph may remember this about Berry Gordy himself.

Gordy always second-guessed himself. Examples: Hours before "Mahogany" was to hit theatres he had an anxiety attack and nearly stopped the premier. Also, he was going to pull Ross out of the Supremes during the run of You Keep Me Hangin' On and changed then as well at the last minute. He agreed to the release of Marvin's What's Going On lp, then reneged until there was a hit single first to sell the album. Berry Gordy pulled many of his own mixes, such as Do You Love Me, Let Me Go The Right Way and Way Over There among many others to constantly re-mix the track for supposed greater effect. As I recall, he nearly cancelled Love Child at the last minute because it wasn't a love song. I think the whole thing with Jean Terrell falls under this character trait; he was the one who selected Jean and he was the one to take the blame if the grouping didn't work.

This happens among artistic people; they always second guess themselves.

What do u think of this Ralph? Logical?

[midnightman]

Berry had issues. Always did. The Posner book describes a 46-year-old Gordy going through the motions around the time Mahogany came out as the "old" Motown empire was falling apart. People still have issues of him suddenly ditching Detroit for Los Angeles when he did. He always made [[or tried to make) sudden changes. I'm glad Mary stood to her ground in this matter. If there was one thing he couldn't do well, was manage groups. Yes he helped to promote them and make them stars but management of them was always a wreck, which is why Joe Jackson got his sons the heck out of Dodge from them [[first with the Las Vegas stints and then to Epic). He managed the Supremes as well. And we know how he managed that! Mary had to do what she had to do. They had already worked with Jean in the studio around this time, that was a lot of money they spent on studio sessions. They weren't just gonna suddenly dump Jean because Berry decided last minute Syreeta should join!

[REDHOT]

Plus Berry was gonna find some way,to make The Supremes pay,for all those recording sessions,that Jean had recorded,as a Supreme,had he replaced Jean with Syreeta,The Supremes would still have to pay,that mean The Supremes Mary Wilson and Cindy Birdsong,and who ever took Diana's place.

[midnightman]

Exactly. Berry's money wasn't gonna trouble him, that's why he [[and other similar label bosses) was that ballsy to say "you pay for it", a habit that still continues for whatever reason... and if you ever defied him in a way, he just simply wasn't gonna work with you. Luckily at that time, the Supremes had a lot of backing that they were able to carry on for the next seven years. "Stone Love" could've easily been a 12th No. 1 pop hit had Motown not erred in naming the song "Stoned Love" before it was ready for release.

[Bluebrock]

We can argue all day long about how successful the 70's Supremes were or were not but to many people they were a wonderfully talented group who recorded some classic songs. I am so grateful for You tube which gives us chance to see this wonderful line up doing what they did best. I just wish we could find footage of the girls performing "Nathan Jones". That song appears to be the only major hit where a TV performance is not currently available - unless someone here knows something I don't.
Marv, you are usually very resourceful in these matters. I shall keep my fingers crossed.

[midnightman]

^ The closest to one is an audio-only version of them performing a faster version of it on The Tonight Show with Johnny Carson.

[carole cucumber]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTjQJDVVgzo

[marv2]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTjQJDVVgzo

Thanks Carole. That was great!

[marv2]

That is probably the best I've heard the Tonight Show band play for a Motown song. I saw this show that night. Joe Namath was the guest host. He started dating Mary and Jean was dating Walt Frazier of the New York Knicks!

[carole cucumber]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6bt0TjEXFY

[marv2]

The Pearl Bailey Show. Listen to these girls cook! This aired on Mary Wilson's 27th birthday.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6bt0TjEXFY

[BayouMotownMan]

The Pearl Bailey Show. Listen to these girls cook! This aired on Mary Wilson's 27th birthday.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6bt0TjEXFY

This never aired in the south since we had no ABC affiliate so I never saw it. The best way I liked this song is when they did it with Tom Jones, but to be honest, I have never liked this song and is among my least favorite of the Jean/Supremes recordings. From the first duet lp with the Tops I was expecting either Knock On My Door or Without The One You Love to be the first single. Was floored when this came over the radio.

[midnightman]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9ESK28DTsM

[Bluebrock]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTjQJDVVgzo

I do believe their appearance on The cilla Black Show on the BBC in 1972 may still exist.
The BBC wiped a lot of TOTP editions but many of the variety shows appear to have survived. I still live in hope.

[marv2]

I do believe their appearance on The cilla Black Show on the BBC in 1972 may still exist.
The BBC wiped a lot of TOTP editions but many of the variety shows appear to have survived. I still live in hope.


Do you remember what song they sang on her show?

[Bluebrock]

Do you remember what song they sang on her show?

It was "Nathan jones" and one other song that I cannot recall. I was only 11 years old and only just getting into Motown but I remember being glued to the screen. I recall my friend saying the Supremes were not as good without Diana but even at that tender age I begged to disagree!