Motown Vault Insiders - Any Motown recording of "You Turned My Bitter Into Sweet"?

[robb_k]

For Keith Hughes or any of The Motown Insiders: Has anyone ever seen a listing or heard anything about a Motown produced, Detroit-recorded version of "You Turned My Bitter Into Sweet" sung by a Motown-signed artist?

During my Time perusing The Motown Vaults and Motown's paper documentation, I never came across any reference to such a recording. I really wonder why, as even "Do I Love You [[Indeed I Do)", I'm So Thankful", "You Hit Me [[Right Where It Hurts)", and "My Heart is Calling You". And those songs were not nearly as good as "Bitter Into Sweet" was.

I can't imagine why some Detroit producer at Motown didn't want to use it on one of his artists or groups. With all the singles and all the album cuts that needed filling, and the 24 hours a day use of the recording studios, I can't understand why it wasn't recorded by at least one Motown-contracted act.



Does anyone have any ideas?
10351

[mysterysinger]

There was a little discussion of this in the past with regard to Mary Love's version. http://soulfuldetroit.com/archive/index.php/t-9395.html

[woodward]

Although I am unfamiliar with the recording, the Jobete Music Company, Inc. Catalog covering January 1959 through March 31, 1967 includes this title and states the writers as Marc Gordon, Chester Pipkin, and Gary Pipkin.

[144man]

Who would have been likely to have recorded the LA demo?

[robb_k]

Who would have been likely to have recorded the LA demo?
10359
Mary, herself, Brenda or Patrice Holloway, Gloria Jones or Pat Hunt.

[keith_hughes]

Can't find any Motown recordings of the song in the Motown paperwork I have copies of, Robb. No reason why the writers should ever have submitted it, in any form, to Motown. They were contracted [[at least, I think Gordon was contracted) to publish his songs with Jobete, but not to offer them to Motown artists. Maybe it was written specifically for Mary, in which case they probably wouldn't have recorded it on any other artist unless she'd turned it down.

It wasn't a hit, and nor were any of the other Jobete songs Mary recorded - I'm In Your Hands, Let Me Know, I Gotta Get You Back and Hey Stoney Face. Motown might well have covered them if they had been ...

[robb_k]

No reason why the writers should ever have submitted it, in any form, to Motown. They were contracted [[at least, I think Gordon was contracted) to publish his songs with Jobete, but not to offer them to Motown artists. Maybe it was written specifically for Mary, in which case they probably wouldn't have recorded it on any other artist unless she'd turned it down.

It wasn't a hit, and nor were any of the other Jobete songs Mary recorded - I'm In Your Hands, Let Me Know, I Gotta Get You Back and Hey Stoney Face. Motown might well have covered them if they had been ...
10376
It was as much of a hit as "I'm So Thankful" [[probably more of a hit), and, "My Heart Is Calling You" and "You Hit Me Right Where It Hurt Me" were totally obscure, and yet they were recorded by Motown Artists. The whole idea of setting up Jobete Music Offices in Los Angeles and New York was not only to earn income through song publishing, but also to add quantity of in-house published songs for Motown's artists to sing. it was my understanding [[possibly what Robert Gordy said- I've forgotten), that Motown had first right to record one of their artists on any Los Angeles or New York Jobete-published song. In the contract, if they didn't schedule a release by a certain date after the song was published [[I think I heard 6 months as the figure) then the original producer had the right to produce that on an artist of his or her choice [[outside artist).

Once a song was published by Jobete Music, it was fair game for any Motown producer to use. I really doubt that H.B. Barnum told HDH that " "My Heart Is Calling You" is a great song for The Four Tops", and Marc Gordon DIDN'T say to someone in Detroit that "You Turned My Bitter Into Sweet" is a great song for The Marvelettes, or Hal Davis, that it would be a great song for Brenda or Patrice Holloway. Detroit Motown producers chose much more obscure L.A. and New York Jobete songs for their Detroit artist than "You Turned My Bitter Into Sweet. You may be right that it took some sort of in-house push from the original writers and/or producers to get their song noticed. And, so, Marc Gordon may have wanted to keep this one for himself. But, if that's true, I feel cheated, as it would have been really nice to hear that song recorded in Detroit by The Funk Brothers. I'd have been most happy if Gordon had gotten Mary signed as a recording artist by Motown, and had her track recorded in Detroit, even if her vocals would have still been recorded in L.A. [[a la The Holloway sisters). Too bad. I feel cheated that none of Mary Love, Gloria Jones, Sandy Wynns, and Pat Hunt were signed to Motown and recorded, [[and yet they recorded Irene Ryan, Tony Martin, Bobby Breen, The Stylers, The Chuck-A-Lucks, and the like.

I remember "You Turned My Bitter Into Sweet" being a hit on EVERY radio station I ever listened to, [[WVON, WLS, KDIA, WDIA, KGFJ). And it was a golden oldie on every oldies station I ever listened to.

[robb_k]

10377
As far as I remember, Hal Davis', Marc Gordon's and Frank Wilson's contracts with Jobete Music were not only non-exclusive for producing, but they were not even exclusive for song writing. I'm almost positive that Hal Davis' and Marc Gordon's Finesse Music Publishing Co. was still publishing songs all through the period they were writing songs for Jobete Music. I had thought that they WANTED every song they wrote that could possibly be published by Jobete Music [[essentially "bought by Motown" - as I believe that they paid the writers a flat fee for each song they "accepted" and published), to be accepted and published by Jobete. I had thought that those that were published by Finesse Music during that period, HAD been submitted to Jobete along with the others, but were rejected, as being not up to Motown's standard.

In any case, Contracted producers/songwriters had a choice to make as to whether or not to "sell" a song to Jobete, or keep the publishing, themselves. If Marc Gordon had intended to record Mary Love singing "You Turned My Bitter Into Sweet", he would have had hopes that record would have the most sales possible. If it would have a lot of sales, he'd earn more residuals from owning that publishing, himself, and also getting the publisher's share, than just getting the songwriter's share. If he wanted to produce her on his own, for a different company, why didn't he have his Finesse Music publish that song? Wasn't "You Turned My Bitter Into Sweet" published in mid-to late 1964? And, it was released in spring 1965. That seems like a period fairly close to that 6-month period that the contracted producers had to wait.

I'm guessing that the song was written with Mary Wells in mind. But, she left Motown in mid-1964. Then, for whatever reason, somehow the song fell through the cracks, and Motown's radar, and was overlooked by accident. When the period was up, and no one had used it, Gordon, knowing it was one of his very best songs, recorded Mary singing it, to see if he could get a hit for himself, rather than having his great song be ignored. If I had been him, I'd have rather wanted it to be recorded by Motown as they had the hit making power and industry name, and clout in the industry and distribution to give it a better chance to become a hit than almost any other record company, because the only companies with better distribution and more promotion power, the majors, didn't know how to market Soul records, and didn't have the connections on the ground, to get the song played. But, if Motown didn't use it after 6 months, there's no telling whether or not they'd ever record it. So, I'd have produced and recorded it myself, just as he did.

Of course, it was not only a shame that the instrumental wasn't recorded in Detroit, by The Funk Brothers, but also that Modern Records couldn't give the record as big a push as Motown could have. I have no doubt that had Mary Wells recorded that song over a Funk Brothers track in 1964, it would have been a LOT more successful than Mary Love's version. Or, probably just as good, if Mary Love had been signed as a recording artist by Motown, and only the background tracks had been recorded in Detroit by The Funk Brothers, and Mary's same L.A. vocal had been used, it would have sold almost as much [[if not as much) as a version by Mary Wells.

In any case, it's the fans' loss that this song somehow fell through Motown's cracks.

[keith_hughes]

Robb: this is all very informed and persuasive stuff, and I'm not going to disagree with more than one sentence of it. Like you, I was buying Motown records in 1965, but 5,247 miles from Los Angeles [[if Google is to be believed - isn't the internet wonderful?), and I never heard of Mary Love, or this record, until many, many years later. And I don't know anything about Jobete Publishing contracts or how they worked, never talked to anyone who had one about the subject.

But what I have, I will offer: Jobete registered YTMBIS at the Library Of Congress on 15-Mar-1965. So most respectfully, I guess that your guess that the song was intended for Mary Wells - as a Motown artist, at any rate - is wrong.

Thanks for writing at such length. Personally, I wish there more discussions like this on SDF.

[snakepit]

First heard YTMBIS in "Ralph's" record shop , Manchester.....a mecca for rare Soul Music fans, which stocked all the big records played on the rare soul scene [[ precursor of Northern Soul). The shop was staffed by DJs familiar with the top sounds at clubs like Manchester's Twisted Wheel....no doubt YTMBIS was played down there.
I vividly remember a member of staff playing it in the shop. This would be about 1969 I guess. Loved it on first hearing.

[robb_k]

Robb: this is all very informed and persuasive stuff, and I'm not going to disagree with more than one sentence of it. Like you, I was buying Motown records in 1965, but 5,247 miles from Los Angeles [[if Google is to be believed - isn't the internet wonderful?), and I never heard of Mary Love, or this record, until many, many years later. And I don't know anything about Jobete Publishing contracts or how they worked, never talked to anyone who had one about the subject.

But what I have, I will offer: Jobete registered YTMBIS at the Library Of Congress on 15-Mar-1965. So most respectfully, I guess that your guess that the song was intended for Mary Wells - as a Motown artist, at any rate - is wrong.

Thanks for writing at such length. Personally, I wish there more discussions like this on SDF.
10386

Thanks for that information, Keith. I must have mixed up this song with another Gordon song that was written and published in 1964. I GUESSED that it may have been written with Mary Wells in mind, as she was the Motown artist that probably would have fit it best. In any case, the fact that Gordon didn't keep the song for himself by having his [[and Hal Davis') Finesse Music, more or less proves that he had wanted to not only have Jobete Music "buy" the song and publish it, but also to have Motown have one of their biggest groups or single artists record it, so there would be a better chance for bigger sales and a hit for the song than if he produced the recording himself using an outside artist, for an outside label. Motown didn't record it, for whatever reason, so he produced it himself and shopped it to Modern Records [[or, he played the demo for Modern, and got them to finance the recording session).

A similar somewhat situation occurred with "I'm So Thankful", except that Motown DID record that song [[I think it was Barbara Randolph). But, Motown didn't release her recording on a record within the option period, so Gordon was then free to record it on his own artists [[The Ikettes), and lease it to Modern. Hal Davis and Marc Gordon already were leasing records to L.A.'s Kent Records [[Modern's sister label), so apparently they had a production deal with The Bihari Brothers'Modern/Kent Records for whatever productions weren't going to Motown [[Vows, Brenda and Patrice Holloway, Versatiles). In addition to Mary Love and The Ikettes, Willie Hutch recorded for Modern and Pat Hunt for Kent.

[snakepit]

"I'm so thankful" was used by Motown on the Edwin Starr & Blinky LP " Just we two".in about 1969.

[robb_k]

"I'm so thankful" was used by Motown on the Edwin Starr & Blinky LP " Just we two".in about 1969.
10389
Thanks, Larry. Yes, and it was also on the Barbara Randolph Anthology CD.

[keith_hughes]

The Barbara Randolph recording, made in LA [[probably) in early 1967, is an interesting case. The song was written by Frank Wilson and Marc Gordon. By early 67, Marc had left Motown and Frank had relocated to Detroit. It was left to Hal Davis to resurrect his former colleagues' song, produce it on Barbara and push it to Motown. As we know, his push was unsuccessful, and it stayed in the can for 35 years ...

In the case of Blinky and Edwin's effort, what happened is more understandable: Frank Wilson was the [[Detroit) producer, pushing HIS song. Successfully, in this case, but then he was in the spot where the decisions were made.

[robb_k]

10410
That's why I think it's so strange that Marc Gordon [[and Chester and Gary Pipken) didn't push "You turned My Bitter Into Sweet" enough to get one of their artists to record it, or, somehow get them to sign Mary Love to an artists' contract as had been gotten by The Holloway Sisters, The Vows, The Versatiles and Oma Heard, and even Hal Davis, himself. If one says that Mary love was too young, at 17, then what about Patrice Holloway, Kinda Griner and Carolyn Crawford, who were all significantly younger.

[Methuselah2]

Well, I'm way outside the vault with this but here's 2 related videos that members might find interesting and entertaining. I sure did.

From 2010: Mary Love rehearsing YOU TURNED MY BITTER INTO SWEET--

http://youtu.be/fTnmOD5x7PU

And:

Docludi's great video take on the song with Ann Miller from 1953's KISS ME, KATE--

http://youtu.be/CsJhfZU9wD8

Thanks to boomerangsoul and docludi, respectively, for these YouTube postings.

[robb_k]

Well, I'm way outside the vault with this but here's 2 related videos that members might find interesting and entertaining. I sure did.

From 2010: Mary Love rehearsing YOU TURNED MY BITTER INTO SWEET--

http://youtu.be/fTnmOD5x7PU

And:

Docludi's great video take on the song with Ann Miller from 1953's KISS ME, KATE--

http://youtu.be/CsJhfZU9wD8

Thanks to boomerangsoul and docludi, respectively, for these YouTube postings.
10411
I am shocked that she needed to look at the sheet. It's her biggest hit, and I. myself know all the words and notes, and could sing it in my sleep, and I'm older than she.

Curious that Ann Miller couldn't dance to the beat of a song made 20+ years after her dancing performance.

[mysterysinger]

How about Linda Lewis?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxEraDCgWf4

[Methuselah2]

I must say, Robb, ever since you started this thread I have not stopped listening to Mary Love's recording. It really is terrific--I love literally everything about it. Why it wasn't a smash hit just seems impossible. But such has happened--particularly with regard to female soloists at Motown--many times before. Listening to them now, they were not expendable--more like indispensable. Particularly to the Motown Sound being nurtured and cultivated. But the configuration of factors that played into it and bounced off of each other is all part of every business' decisions, especially the business of show. But, gosh, that Motown Sound of the 60s could just be so relentlessly brilliant. This tune made my jaw drop because it sounds 'so Motown' to me. Thanks very much for the thread, Robb, and for the insightful, indepth postings.

[roger]

First heard YTMBIS in "Ralph's" record shop , Manchester.....a mecca for rare Soul Music fans, which stocked all the big records played on the rare soul scene [[ precursor of Northern Soul). The shop was staffed by DJs familiar with the top sounds at clubs like Manchester's Twisted Wheel....no doubt YTMBIS was played down there.
I vividly remember a member of staff playing it in the shop. This would be about 1969 I guess. Loved it on first hearing.

I suspect you might have heard the song being played in that record shop on a bootleg copy Mr Snakepit.

"You Turned My Bitter Into Sweet" actually got a U.K. release in late 1965, some six months after its US release, which suggests to me that made some kind of impact back then.

http://www.45cat.com/record/kg1024

I know that it became a favourite on the late 1960s "Rare Soul" scene as some time around 1969/70 it was bootlegged on the "Soul Sounds" label, along with other "Rare Soul" favourites ... there is a discography of Soul Sounds releases here ....

http://martinsbox.tripod.com/id60.htm

Roger