"Partners buried" per Scbherrie and Susaye

[luke]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcpBl2HFbug...and they discuss the Supremes and the S supergroup. Does anyone know why they think Partners was " buried"?

[carole cucumber]

Susaye has posted here often. Why not ask her?

[jobeterob]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcpBl2HFbug

This is good.

[marv2]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcpBl2HFbug...and they discuss the Supremes and the S supergroup. Does anyone know why they think Partners was " buried"?

Because Motown was not serious about any of the Supremes after Diane left the group. How else can you explain that amount of neglect for all of those gloriously talented women?

[luke]

Oh ok. Though IMO those albums[[ including Mary's) weren't as stellar as I had hoped for.

[BayouMotownMan]

I'd like to add another tidbit if I may about the Partners lp.

Aside from the politics [[and there was a lot of that), by the time this and the Mary Wilson lp was released Motown was swimming in red. The two or three years prior were very dry for Motown and Berry invested in The Wiz which failed along with other debts that Gordy wrote about in his book. Motown had lost a lot of power in the record industry during this time.

Budgets were slashed. There was virtually no money available to establish new artists and Scherrie, Susaye and Mary were basically new artists outside of the Supremes. The Supremes died a quiet death in the US, had some fanfare overseas but that was about it. Had that last lp done as well as High Energy, things could have been different.

Motown spent a fortune settling lawsuits in order to kill The Supremes and that factored into this as well. Whatever enthusiasm Gordy or dePasse had for this project was buried over money issues. While Mary's lp got some distribution, Partners did not. Most fans had to special order the album.

The material is great but the major complaint is that the lp was uneven as Billboard said. It was not a true duet lp. As I recall the ladies share vocals on only four of the nine cuts. Scherrie's style of music was vastly different that Susaye's and it shows on here. Forgetting the elegance of Another Life From Now or the funk of LuvBug, Motown jumped on the disco bandwagon with a badly edited version of Leaving Me Was The Best Thing You've Ever Done. By contract, Motown released this lp and Mary's and then washed their hands of it. Commodores, Stevie, Smokey and Diana were given promotional budgets.

[detmotownguy]

I'd like to add another tidbit if I may about the Partners lp.

Aside from the politics [[and there was a lot of that), by the time this and the Mary Wilson lp was released Motown was swimming in red. The two or three years prior were very dry for Motown and Berry invested in The Wiz which failed along with other debts that Gordy wrote about in his book. Motown had lost a lot of power in the record industry during this time.

Budgets were slashed. There was virtually no money available to establish new artists and Scherrie, Susaye and Mary were basically new artists outside of the Supremes. The Supremes died a quiet death in the US, had some fanfare overseas but that was about it. Had that last lp done as well as High Energy, things could have been different.

Motown spent a fortune settling lawsuits in order to kill The Supremes and that factored into this as well. Whatever enthusiasm Gordy or dePasse had for this project was buried over money issues. While Mary's lp got some distribution, Partners did not. Most fans had to special order the album.

The material is great but the major complaint is that the lp was uneven as Billboard said. It was not a true duet lp. As I recall the ladies share vocals on only four of the nine cuts. Scherrie's style of music was vastly different that Susaye's and it shows on here. Forgetting the elegance of Another Life From Now or the funk of LuvBug, Motown jumped on the disco bandwagon with a badly edited version of Leaving Me Was The Best Thing You've Ever Done. By contract, Motown released this lp and Mary's and then washed their hands of it. Commodores, Stevie, Smokey and Diana were given promotional budgets.


I might be mistaken but I thought that the Supremes last album outsold high-energy. any comments? I like high-energy I thought it was really good however I thought that the last album was setting them off in a new direction which I thought was helpful at the time .

[marv2]

I'd like to add another tidbit if I may about the Partners lp.

Aside from the politics [[and there was a lot of that), by the time this and the Mary Wilson lp was released Motown was swimming in red. The two or three years prior were very dry for Motown and Berry invested in The Wiz which failed along with other debts that Gordy wrote about in his book. Motown had lost a lot of power in the record industry during this time.

Budgets were slashed. There was virtually no money available to establish new artists and Scherrie, Susaye and Mary were basically new artists outside of the Supremes. The Supremes died a quiet death in the US, had some fanfare overseas but that was about it. Had that last lp done as well as High Energy, things could have been different.

Motown spent a fortune settling lawsuits in order to kill The Supremes and that factored into this as well. Whatever enthusiasm Gordy or dePasse had for this project was buried over money issues. While Mary's lp got some distribution, Partners did not. Most fans had to special order the album.

The material is great but the major complaint is that the lp was uneven as Billboard said. It was not a true duet lp. As I recall the ladies share vocals on only four of the nine cuts. Scherrie's style of music was vastly different that Susaye's and it shows on here. Forgetting the elegance of Another Life From Now or the funk of LuvBug, Motown jumped on the disco bandwagon with a badly edited version of Leaving Me Was The Best Thing You've Ever Done. By contract, Motown released this lp and Mary's and then washed their hands of it. Commodores, Stevie, Smokey and Diana were given promotional budgets.

Yeah well Rick James was bringing in money to Motown during that time, the Commodores were still red hot [[pardon the pun), Stevie was still selling huge amounts and other acts like Switch, Thelma Houston, High Inergy, Jermaine Jackson etc,etc were bringing up the back end nicely. Why Motown had such a money crunch [[aside from that disaster "The Wiz"" which was mostly Berry and Diane's fault) is beyond me!

[BayouMotownMan]

The new acts you mentioned Marv had cooled considerably in 1979. Promotional costs had skyrocketed and frankly Motown just wasn't employing the right people to handle these issues. In the 1980s Gordy wised up and brought some younger people on board and Motown made a brief comeback.

Gordy's gambling debts were also at issue here.

Further hurting Motown was that they simply jumped on the disco bandwagon and the music, outside of Detroit, simply was not as innovative as it had been. Gordy had concentrated more on the film industry and when he took the recording end over again in 1980 he got it up and running for several more years. Smokey himself was getting disillusioned. He had some moderate success as a soloist but it wasn't until "Where There's Smoke" and "Crusin'" hit in late '79 that his solo career took off in earnest. High Inergy was dead by late '79, Switch had cooled some as had Rick James. His second lp did well but the third and fourth did not. It wasn't til 1981 that Street Songs took him to the next level. Gordy also spent a small fortune trying to establish son-in-law Jermaine Jackson as a soloist with only a modest return on this in the 80s. Gaye was ice cold. Stevie and Commodores were still hot, but Ross would not have a major hit again until mid 1980.
Tons of product on Thelma Houston, Jerry Butler, Tata Vega and some newer artists did nothing.

[jobeterob]

High Energy did better than any 70's Supremes LP other than Right On - I believe it made it into the 40's.

Mary Scherrie & Susaye did not even chart on the Top 200 album chart.

It always seemed to me that if there had been a reasonable 2nd single release off High Energy, [[like the song High Energy), there might have been some hope for the Supremes. But the mix of politics prevented that from being a possibility because the lead was the "new girl".

[BayouMotownMan]

High Energy was an unexpected hit album for Motown and the Supremes in the summer of 1976. It came close to gold status.

There were actually two more singles off that lp. Second single should have been title cut followed by You're What's Missing In My Life which got heavy FM airplay

[luke]

I agree. To me the MS and S album was not nearly as good though apparently Berry liked it.

[detmotownguy]

High Energy was an unexpected hit album for Motown and the Supremes in the summer of 1976. It came close to gold status.

There were actually two more singles off that lp. Second single should have been title cut followed by You're What's Missing In My Life which got heavy FM airplay

I didn't realize gold status! Is there a trustworthy source of Sups record sales ?

[detmotownguy]

I agree. To me the MS and S album was not nearly as good though apparently Berry liked it.
Hi Luke! I liked MSS, so very diff fr Energy. Don't get me wrong as High Energy is a fav Sups song. The production is superb! I wish MSS out out one more album just to see what direction they would go. Tons of talent! I wish they would reunite.

[luke]

Hi demot! I agree per the production!

[milven]

In the interview, Susaye mentioned that her mother had a hit in 1948.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmpN9j40Mr0

[jobeterob]

http://www.greasylake.org/the-circuit/index.php?/topic/116321-the-supremes-diana-ross-stevie-wonder-and-ray-charlesusa-album-sales/

As good as it gets

125,000 High Energy
50,000 Mary Scherrie & Susaye

[Bluebrock]

I thought "high energy" was a splendid album and should have had at least one more single off it. "Mary, Scherrie and Susaye" was in my opinion a weaker album but still a good listen.
As regards Mary's solo album. The less said about that the better. It was a poor album throughout and not worthy of our Mary. Motown seemed determined to kill off her solo recording career and did a pretty fine job of that. I trust they were proud of themselves.
"partners~" was better but still not very good in my opinion. So many missed opportunities and as Marv rightly says how could Motown treat these great ladies with such utter disrespect. I am still fuming all these years later.

[alanbill1074]

The Supremes really should have ended once Jean left. It was their natural time to end, instead of dragging on and on making acceptable but average disco music [[IMO no need for anyone to go all nuclear on me, I always participate in Supremes threads with trepidation).

The ladies in subsequent versions of the group were all beautiful and talented, but for me, nothing past Floy Joy was really that good, be it in the group or out. Many of the songs were painfully average and to me, that's why they weren't pushed. They simply didn't warrant a huge spend because the potential return wasn't there. Partners was OK, actually better than some Supremes material. If I'd been Mary though I'd have been very vocal about the poor material I was being fobbed off with. That album was extremely weak. She did the best with what she got, which wasn't much.

I agree money was probably tight in the back end of the 70s, which is all the more reason to only spend it where the best return would come.

[luke]

But not much happened with Tata and Syreeta either.

[jobeterob]

Most records released are not hits. As we moved into the 80's and 90's, the record companies were banking on the major smasheroo that made so much money that everyone had pots of gold - The BodyGuard, Thriller.

But for every one of those, there were hundreds of failures and some of the failures were good records.

So many of these groups failed for obvious reasons, every when they had an awesome singer in them. The would have crappy managers ~ generally husbands or sons who didn't have a clue; and as the groups started to fail, they would start fighting each other; and when there wasn't the money coming in anymore, there wasn't much reason to stay together when there were no hits.

There was one real chance for the 70's Supremes ~ right after I'm Going To Let My Heart Do the Walking. And that was to release High Energy. And either Mary or Pedro or both could not cope with that concept after all they had been through ~ and so the Supremes got kicked to the curb.

No record company was going to support that nonsense.

[marv2]

Most records released are not hits. As we moved into the 80's and 90's, the record companies were banking on the major smasheroo that made so much money that everyone had pots of gold - The BodyGuard, Thriller.

But for every one of those, there were hundreds of failures and some of the failures were good records.

So many of these groups failed for obvious reasons, every when they had an awesome singer in them. The would have crappy managers ~ generally husbands or sons who didn't have a clue; and as the groups started to fail, they would start fighting each other; and when there wasn't the money coming in anymore, there wasn't much reason to stay together when there were no hits.

There was one real chance for the 70's Supremes ~ right after I'm Going To Let My Heart Do the Walking. And that was to release High Energy. And either Mary or Pedro or both could not cope with that concept after all they had been through ~ and so the Supremes got kicked to the curb.

No record company was going to support that nonsense.

Is that why Motown dropped Diane?

[RobertZ]

http://www.greasylake.org/the-circuit/index.php?/topic/116321-the-supremes-diana-ross-stevie-wonder-and-ray-charlesusa-album-sales/

As good as it gets

125,000 High Energy
50,000 Mary Scherrie & Susaye
Dude. That's some harsh shxxx stuff.

[RobertZ]

Most records released are not hits. As we moved into the 80's and 90's, the record companies were banking on the major smasheroo that made so much money that everyone had pots of gold - The BodyGuard, Thriller.

But for every one of those, there were hundreds of failures and some of the failures were good records.

So many of these groups failed for obvious reasons, every when they had an awesome singer in them. The would have crappy managers ~ generally husbands or sons who didn't have a clue; and as the groups started to fail, they would start fighting each other; and when there wasn't the money coming in anymore, there wasn't much reason to stay together when there were no hits.

There was one real chance for the 70's Supremes ~ right after I'm Going To Let My Heart Do the Walking. And that was to release High Energy. And either Mary or Pedro or both could not cope with that concept after all they had been through ~ and so the Supremes got kicked to the curb.

No record company was going to support that nonsense.
What was the "concept" the Ferrars couldn't cope with? And what had they "been through"?

[RobertZ]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcpBl2HFbug...and they discuss the Supremes and the S supergroup. Does anyone know why they think Partners was " buried"?
Every artist who ever released a bomb blames it on the label. Harsh but true. Labels want their releases to sell -

[jobeterob]

The concept the Ferrers didn't like and could not cope with was that there was a chance another DIANA ROSS would be created out of Susaye Greene ~ because she had some sass, style, and a VOICE that was DISTINCTIVE. Scherrie had a heck of a voice but it does not have the distinction of the Susaye voice. And one or both of the Ferrers did not want Mary to have to go through another Diana taking all the spotlight again. That was a lot for Mary, Florence and Cindy to go through.

Hell, we'd all be jealous and we know it! Three young girls from the projects and one walks away to masses of hits, the movies, Oscar nomination, Central Park and the others have to borrow money from her. Not fun.

I agree ~ everyone blames the label. Yet the old label in this case plastered page large photos in all the trade magazines for Heart do the Walking, Right On, Floy Joy and even the bomb that didn't chart - MSS.

[marv2]

The concept the Ferrers didn't like and could not cope with was that there was a chance another DIANA ROSS would be created out of Susaye Greene ~ because she had some sass, style, and a VOICE that was DISTINCTIVE. Scherrie had a heck of a voice but it does not have the distinction of the Susaye voice. And one or both of the Ferrers did not want Mary to have to go through another Diana taking all the spotlight again. That was a lot for Mary, Florence and Cindy to go through.

Hell, we'd all be jealous and we know it! Three young girls from the projects and one walks away to masses of hits, the movies, Oscar nomination, Central Park and the others have to borrow money from her. Not fun.

I agree ~ everyone blames the label. Yet the old label in this case plastered page large photos in all the trade magazines for Heart do the Walking, Right On, Floy Joy and even the bomb that didn't chart - MSS.

But you see in reality, none of the original Supremes were jealous of Diana Ross because they know how she got there! [[her brother may have been jealous). They were witness to all the "hanky-panky" that was going on behind the scenes to put Miss Ross in a position to do great things later. It was more a feeling of disgust, unfairness and just nasty.It was by design........it was not divine! Learn the difference.

[RobertZ]

The concept the Ferrers didn't like and could not cope with was that there was a chance another DIANA ROSS would be created out of Susaye Greene ~ because she had some sass, style, and a VOICE that was DISTINCTIVE. Scherrie had a heck of a voice but it does not have the distinction of the Susaye voice. And one or both of the Ferrers did not want Mary to have to go through another Diana taking all the spotlight again. That was a lot for Mary, Florence and Cindy to go through.

Hell, we'd all be jealous and we know it! Three young girls from the projects and one walks away to masses of hits, the movies, Oscar nomination, Central Park and the others have to borrow money from her. Not fun.

I agree ~ everyone blames the label. Yet the old label in this case plastered page large photos in all the trade magazines for Heart do the Walking, Right On, Floy Joy and even the bomb that didn't chart - MSS.
Aha - That makes sense. And post-Jean the public didn't accept the revolving-door members as "Supremes" anyway [[after all, this iteration was getting booed off the stage). HE was a great album but your sales figures certainly put to rest the "almost-gold" urban myth. It was a good run for everyone but past time to put it to rest.

[luke]

But wasn't Susaye chosen for those reasons to spice up the Supremes?

[marv2]

Aha - That makes sense. And post-Jean the public didn't accept the revolving-door members as "Supremes" anyway [[after all, this iteration was getting booed off the stage). HE was a great album but your sales figures certainly put to rest the "almost-gold" urban myth. It was a good run for everyone but past time to put it to rest.

Do you even know and understand how and why that incident at MSG occurred in March 1977? I'll give you a hint. It had nothing to do with the Supremes talents.

[marv2]

But wasn't Susaye chosen for those reasons to spice up the Supremes?

Yes, that is true.

[milven]

Do you even know and understand how and why that incident at MSG occurred in March 1977? I'll give you a hint. It had nothing to do with the Supremes talents.

I always thought that it had to do with the audience and the music the Supremes chose to sing. They were singing their new songs, and the audience was expecting the oldies of the sixties. Is this assumption correct?

On a personal note, I had tickets for that show. My friend subwayed into the city from Brooklyn and I drove in from NJ, but there was a lack of communication and she and I were waiting for each other at different locations. [[This was before cell phones) So we did not get to see the show. I've always had mixed emotions about that. I was sorry that I missed the show, but I think it would have been very hurtful to have sat in the audience and see my group booed

[luke]

Didn't Mary decide to leave the group that night?

[Bluebrock]

The Supremes really should have ended once Jean left. It was their natural time to end, instead of dragging on and on making acceptable but average disco music [[IMO no need for anyone to go all nuclear on me, I always participate in Supremes threads with trepidation).

The ladies in subsequent versions of the group were all beautiful and talented, but for me, nothing past Floy Joy was really that good, be it in the group or out. Many of the songs were painfully average and to me, that's why they weren't pushed. They simply didn't warrant a huge spend because the potential return wasn't there. Partners was OK, actually better than some Supremes material. If I'd been Mary though I'd have been very vocal about the poor material I was being fobbed off with. That album was extremely weak. She did the best with what she got, which wasn't much.

I agree money was probably tight in the back end of the 70s, which is all the more reason to only spend it where the best return would come.
I totally agree Alan. I have said this in the past. For me the Supremes died when Jean left. Afterwards we were left with great individual performers that didn't look comfortable together. "HE" was a great album but for me it didn't sound like the Supremes, but let's be honest. The girls had a good run but nothing lasts forever. Maybe Motown realised this and that is why they treated them so appallingly.

[jobeterob]

I totally agree Alan. I have said this in the past. For me the Supremes died when Jean left. Afterwards we were left with great individual performers that didn't look comfortable together. "HE" was a great album but for me it didn't sound like the Supremes, but let's be honest. The girls had a good run but nothing lasts forever. Maybe Motown realised this and that is why they treated them so appallingly.

I don't know that is accurate to say they were treated appallingly; they were treated like every other act that has revolving member, infighting, poor management and isn't making any money. That's how Columbia, Mercury, Decca, Sony, Warners, Atlantic treated them all then and they do it now. The artist is not very significant unless they turn out the huge hits.

Mary Wilson never sold anything for any record company and so she was treated as generally irrelevant ~ relevant only in that she was a background singer in the Supremes.

She took that and made it into a career and that was due to hard work and commitment, even if it came later in life.

But to a record company, expecting one of those to support her and the 70's Supremes was a pipe dream. It just doesn't work that way.

I believe Susaye might have been their way back but it never happened and it's just another one of those "what if's"

This is the way that record companies now treat Diana Ross, Aretha Franklin and Stevie Wonder ~ relevant for a glorious past but nothing much for right now. Give them GaGa and Taylor.

[thanxal]

I don't know that is accurate to say they were treated appallingly; they were treated like every other act that has revolving member, infighting, poor management and isn't making any money. That's how Columbia, Mercury, Decca, Sony, Warners, Atlantic treated them all then and they do it now. The artist is not very significant unless they turn out the huge hits.
Mary Wilson never sold anything for any record company and so she was treated as generally irrelevant ~ relevant only in that she was a background singer in the Supremes.

She took that and made it into a career and that was due to hard work and commitment, even if it came later in life.

But to a record company, expecting one of those to support her and the 70's Supremes was a pipe dream. It just doesn't work that way.

I believe Susaye might have been their way back but it never happened and it's just another one of those "what if's"

This is the way that record companies now treat Diana Ross, Aretha Franklin and Stevie Wonder ~ relevant for a glorious past but nothing much for right now. Give them GaGa and Taylor.
Oh my! How dare you not blame an evil conspiracy or insist that evil record label didn't do x,y or z or did x,y or z. Why insert logic into this debate! </snark>.

[Bluebrock]

I don't know that is accurate to say they were treated appallingly; they were treated like every other act that has revolving member, infighting, poor management and isn't making any money. That's how Columbia, Mercury, Decca, Sony, Warners, Atlantic treated them all then and they do it now. The artist is not very significant unless they turn out the huge hits.

Mary Wilson never sold anything for any record company and so she was treated as generally irrelevant ~ relevant only in that she was a background singer in the Supremes.

She took that and made it into a career and that was due to hard work and commitment, even if it came later in life.

But to a record company, expecting one of those to support her and the 70's Supremes was a pipe dream. It just doesn't work that way.

I believe Susaye might have been their way back but it never happened and it's just another one of those "what if's"

This is the way that record companies now treat Diana Ross, Aretha Franklin and Stevie Wonder ~ relevant for a glorious past but nothing much for right now. Give them GaGa and Taylor.

Okay, maybe I did go a little over the top when I said they were treated appallingly. I shall change that to treated shabbily. I still get very annoyed by what went on back then. Thank you for your wise words.

[RobertZ]

jobeterob, thanxal -
So true. In fact another perspective could be that Motown gave the "Supremes" every possible chance to succeed, what with revolving [[and, largely faceless) members, diminishing sales, cancelled bookings, etc. I recall seeing them on TV with every new release, the records were in stores, etc. My belief is and always will be that the Supremes consisted, in their glory years and for a tad with Jean, as recognizable faces. After Jean left it was "Who's calling themselves Supremes now?". That was the response of the general public as well. Many in the business were treated far worse. And remember that during the British Invasion and Motown Mania the early R&R / teen stars were pushed aside for the new sounds also. No consipiricy required.

[luke]

Mary wilson and Cindy Birdsong more than paid their dues and deserved respect.

[milven]

jobeterob, thanxal -
... And remember that during the British Invasion and Motown Mania the early R&R / teen stars were pushed aside for the new sounds also. No consipiricy required.

So true. Many big stars of the late fifties like Frankie Avalon, Connie Francis, Brenda Lee, Bobby Rydell and so many more were pushed aside by Motown and the British invasion.

And the span for so many singers and groups is usually only about five or six years at the top. The Supremes had six peak years and then continued to have success on a different level for another six years. If they kept going and kept up the rapid revolving door of Supremes , they would have evolved into an oldies tribute act to the original group. In my opinion the Four Tops and the Temptations are now basically tribute acts to themselves.

[jobeterob]

All these artists get treated like commodities by the companies; and now it is even worse because there is little money to be made at it.

I think Mary, Cindy, Flo, Susaye, Scherrie, Lynda are all loved and highly respected by the fans. There are pictures of them on Facebook with fans all the time [[well, not so much Flo).

But when the artist stops making money, the boot comes out fast, the hook comes out fast to grab them off the stage.

I actually think Berry, his family and Motown weren't as bad as many of the others. And most of Berry's artists continue singing his praises through to this day.

[RobertZ]

Mary wilson and Cindy Birdsong more than paid their dues and deserved respect.
Certainly many people agree with you. As well as fans and members of the Cookies, the Orlons, the Four Seasons, Mercy, the American Breed, the Drells, the Dells, Blood Sweat & Tears, the Fontaine Sisters, the Impressions, the Starlighters, Herman's Hermits, the Shirelles, the Shangri-Las, the Shondells, Three Dog Night, the Limelights, the Crickets, the Standells, the Detroit Wheels, the Imperials, the Pacemakers, the Union Gap, the Fleewoods, the Belmonts, the Dixie Cups, the Juniors, the Dave Clark Five, the Crystals, the Ronettes, and maybe one or two more. Point being, of course, that there always has been, and always will be, stated or implied conspiricy theories surrounding the Supremes, but all facts point to the conclusion that they were exit-compensated as well [[most likely, better), than many others in the biz who were no longer popular or profitable. In fact one would be very hard pressed to find a single ex-hitmaker who felt they were compensated fairly.

[jobeterob]

Lesley Gore said that she did not receive a penny from Mercury from 1969 when she was dumped until something like 1987 ~ all those back costs!

[RobertZ]

Lesley Gore said that she did not receive a penny from Mercury from 1969 when she was dumped until something like 1987 ~ all those back costs!
I recall - and It's My Party and You Don't Own Me were played daily on oldies stations, commercials, movies, etc. And Ms. Gore was the lead singer. Unfortunately it's an industry standard, not a conspiracy against one or two [[or three) group members.

[BayouMotownMan]

But you see in reality, none of the original Supremes were jealous of Diana Ross because they know how she got there! [[her brother may have been jealous). They were witness to all the "hanky-panky" that was going on behind the scenes to put Miss Ross in a position to do great things later. It was more a feeling of disgust, unfairness and just nasty.It was by design........it was not divine! Learn the difference.

I have to speak up here. You know Marv you have been spewing this crap for over 15 years about incidents that happened 50+ years ago. I have to wonder how lonely and unfulfilled your life must be to dwell on this sort of urban myth.

But let's examine your logic that Diana Ross slept her was to stardom with Berry Gordy which you have asserted numerous times.

Her backup singer Mary Wilson, by her own admission, had well-publicized affairs with some powerful men in show business. Among them Steve McQueen, David Frost, Abdul Fakir, Tom Jones and Flip Wilson who wanted to marry her. Many of these men were married, but that seems to bother you only when Diana Ross treads that ground. So by your assessment, seeing that these men were powerful, then the assumption would be that they could have escalated Mary Wilson into the same stellar territory that Ross has enjoyed. But it didn't happen.

Instead she married the unknown and unemployed Pedro Ferrer and put him in charge of her career. To this day she has not been able to get over the damage he caused her.

As far as the original Supremes being jealous of her, of course they were. They were young girls watching their bandmate being given special attention by the boss whom she became involved with. It was the jealousy that helped Flo spin out of control. Many artists were jealous of Diana Ross because Gordy was always praising her and comparing them to her which nobody likes. One Motown female vocalist was even told at a recording session to try and "sound like Diane."

As far as Susaye being denied a hit with High Energy, I would say some jealousy may have been involved. But the practical reason is that she had only been in the group for a few months and was still on a probation which all new girls were in when joining the Supremes. Mary was not so traumatized by the effects of working with Diana Ross as she was her replacement; Diana may be temperamental but she gave a show no matter what unless circumstances were beyond her control, which rarely happened.

The sad truth is that the public will pick a winner and whomever is in that person's shadow will struggle for recognition. It happened to the Jacksons. It happened to Vandellas. To Pips. To Temptations and countless other groups. I will maintain that Gordy saw drive in Diana Ross that simply was not there in her bandmates. He is shrewd. He gambled on the one he knew would deliver.

Being said, I think if we focus on NOW and let THEN go because it truly is irrelevant to NOW. I appreciate every song that came out of Motown, they all have their own magic. Who slept with whom and who is responsible for someone else's failures has gotten so tiring. AND IRRELEVANT.

If it bothers a person that someone is sleeping with someone else I thing that person should seek counseling. It should have no issue in the objecting person's life. For instance, look at the Federal worker out of Kentucky that is in jail today for denying same-sex marriage licenses. This lady has been married FOUR TIMES. Speaks for itself. Misery: Thy name is jealousy

Personally my favorite singers at Motown would be Jean Terrell, Syreeta, Tammi Terrell, Martha Reeves and Kim Weston. It is sad that their successes were so limited. But they had opportunities after Motown but it just didn't happen. It's nobody's fault. I feel Lynda Laurence, Scherrie Payne and Susaye Greene could have been showcased more [[as could Cindy) but I appreciate what little I do have of them. I don't listen to this stuff and blame someone else for whatever success they didn't have. Why do that to myself?

I just dance and enjoy it. These boards would be so much more peaceful if the rest of us did.

[luke]

The Cookies and the Supremes were not exactly in the same league. Supremes were the #1 group in the USA.

[jim aka jtigre99]

Ai yi yi. I didn't want to comment on yet another Supremes thread with my actual opinions because that is what we all have-opinions. I just get so tired of reading disrespect to the individual groups members. I have opinions, too, and I will express them here. Partners probably did get buried for reasons we can only guess at. The three LPs by the former Supremes were all uneven at best-Partners, Mary Wilson and Ross. Diana Ross had an amazingly distinctive voice and when she performed she was visually exciting. In the original group, Florence had a longer and stronger voice but it was the least distinctive of the original three which was loud and strong but had no distinctive sound and personality. Mary had a distinctive voice but considered herself more a group member and balladeer as lead, she pulled back when singing background with Florence so it was more like harmony and not two loud vocalists competing with each other. Cindy added her own spark and glamour to the group but was not as loud as Florence and not distinctive in sound, Wilson was much louder and adjusted her voice to harmonize with her. Jean Terrell also had a distinctive voice but could sometimes get shrill like on Jimmy Webb LP. Visually she was a handsome woman but some sort of spark was missing and Mary & Cindy seemed to provide it more than ever. By the time Lynda joined, she was visually attractive and had a louder voice than Cindy but it seemed to also lack personality. Scherrie Payne was a dynamo-she sang loud and strong with personality and was visually exciting. Her voice wasn't as distinctive as Ross or Terrell but she breathed life into the group and had the power Ballard had but was able to control it better and provide some exciting songs that lacked in the latter day Terrell and Ross days. Susaye Greene had a distinctive voice and I think High energy would have made a great second single but at the time it took some time for me to get used to that song in 1976. I think Susaye may have moved the group in a far different direction from what the Supremes had been. I have read she had far different ideas on what the group focus should have been,. I am glad that the group did not end with the Jimmy Webb LP. I think the last 2 editions gave some life to the group even if it did not have the same mass popularity. Partners probably was buried as it seems like 2 LPs joined to make 1 product, Mary's solo LP was OK but her forte was ballads and Red Hot was one of my least favorites, would have preferred I Love A Warm Summer Night or Midnight Dancer as a single. The songs to her follow up were more her style and possibly could have been closer as a hit. But we really don't know what was going on at Motown. I love all of the Supremes' talents but we really don't know what they were like to work with or why they never got the push they deserved. I just enjoy the music and their talents.

[thommg]

I find myself agreeing with everything that jim akajtigre99 said in his post. I would not want to give up the last three Supremes lp's or Mary Wilson or Partners. I find much joy in all of them. Were the lp's buried? Probably. But, I don't think there was malicious intent. I don't think the record division was being handled well at that point, Gordy's interests were elsewhere. Every time a record company changes an executive, some band or group is left behind. That's fact. You need the backing of the person in charge. And those in charge want to make their own mark with people they sign not inherit. None of these Supremes had anyone fully behind them. Certainly, Pedro had no connections and no idea how to do what needed to be done at that point. By this time, there were other girl groups that were making a splash, newer but based on The Supremes. Their selling point was they weren't The Supremes because every generation wants their own performers to idolize. I don't think it was the changing members that hurt so much as not really finding a niche that wasn't so tied to the original Supremes. I often wonder what would have happened if Jean, Lynda & Mary had left the name behind and continued as another group. Would they have found more success or just been ignored? Would another company have been willing to spend the money needed to give them the push they would need or would people have just said, "it's The Supremes with a new name"? As someone said above, every group runs its course. The Supremes had a long run by group standards. And I was glad to be along for the entire ride.

[Roberta75]

I have to speak up here. You know Marv you have been spewing this crap for over 15 years about incidents that happened 50+ years ago. I have to wonder how lonely and unfulfilled your life must be to dwell on this sort of urban myth.

But let's examine your logic that Diana Ross slept her was to stardom with Berry Gordy which you have asserted numerous times.

Her backup singer Mary Wilson, by her own admission, had well-publicized affairs with some powerful men in show business. Among them Steve McQueen, David Frost, Abdul Fakir, Tom Jones and Flip Wilson who wanted to marry her. Many of these men were married, but that seems to bother you only when Diana Ross treads that ground. So by your assessment, seeing that these men were powerful, then the assumption would be that they could have escalated Mary Wilson into the same stellar territory that Ross has enjoyed. But it didn't happen.

Instead she married the unknown and unemployed Pedro Ferrer and put him in charge of her career. To this day she has not been able to get over the damage he caused her.

As far as the original Supremes being jealous of her, of course they were. They were young girls watching their bandmate being given special attention by the boss whom she became involved with. It was the jealousy that helped Flo spin out of control. Many artists were jealous of Diana Ross because Gordy was always praising her and comparing them to her which nobody likes. One Motown female vocalist was even told at a recording session to try and "sound like Diane."

As far as Susaye being denied a hit with High Energy, I would say some jealousy may have been involved. But the practical reason is that she had only been in the group for a few months and was still on a probation which all new girls were in when joining the Supremes. Mary was not so traumatized by the effects of working with Diana Ross as she was her replacement; Diana may be temperamental but she gave a show no matter what unless circumstances were beyond her control, which rarely happened.

The sad truth is that the public will pick a winner and whomever is in that person's shadow will struggle for recognition. It happened to the Jacksons. It happened to Vandellas. To Pips. To Temptations and countless other groups. I will maintain that Gordy saw drive in Diana Ross that simply was not there in her bandmates. He is shrewd. He gambled on the one he knew would deliver.

Being said, I think if we focus on NOW and let THEN go because it truly is irrelevant to NOW. I appreciate every song that came out of Motown, they all have their own magic. Who slept with whom and who is responsible for someone else's failures has gotten so tiring. AND IRRELEVANT.

If it bothers a person that someone is sleeping with someone else I thing that person should seek counseling. It should have no issue in the objecting person's life. For instance, look at the Federal worker out of Kentucky that is in jail today for denying same-sex marriage licenses. This lady has been married FOUR TIMES. Speaks for itself. Misery: Thy name is jealousy

Personally my favorite singers at Motown would be Jean Terrell, Syreeta, Tammi Terrell, Martha Reeves and Kim Weston. It is sad that their successes were so limited. But they had opportunities after Motown but it just didn't happen. It's nobody's fault. I feel Lynda Laurence, Scherrie Payne and Susaye Greene could have been showcased more [[as could Cindy) but I appreciate what little I do have of them. I don't listen to this stuff and blame someone else for whatever success they didn't have. Why do that to myself?

I just dance and enjoy it. These boards would be so much more peaceful if the rest of us did.



Wow that the best and most honest post Ive ever written. Thank you.

wishing you a safe and blessed weekend.

Fondly

Roberta

[RobertZ]

I have to speak up here. You know Marv you have been spewing this crap for over 15 years about incidents that happened 50+ years ago. I have to wonder how lonely and unfulfilled your life must be to dwell on this sort of urban myth.

But let's examine your logic that Diana Ross slept her was to stardom with Berry Gordy which you have asserted numerous times.

Her backup singer Mary Wilson, by her own admission, had well-publicized affairs with some powerful men in show business. Among them Steve McQueen, David Frost, Abdul Fakir, Tom Jones and Flip Wilson who wanted to marry her. Many of these men were married, but that seems to bother you only when Diana Ross treads that ground. So by your assessment, seeing that these men were powerful, then the assumption would be that they could have escalated Mary Wilson into the same stellar territory that Ross has enjoyed. But it didn't happen.

Instead she married the unknown and unemployed Pedro Ferrer and put him in charge of her career. To this day she has not been able to get over the damage he caused her.

As far as the original Supremes being jealous of her, of course they were. They were young girls watching their bandmate being given special attention by the boss whom she became involved with. It was the jealousy that helped Flo spin out of control. Many artists were jealous of Diana Ross because Gordy was always praising her and comparing them to her which nobody likes. One Motown female vocalist was even told at a recording session to try and "sound like Diane."

As far as Susaye being denied a hit with High Energy, I would say some jealousy may have been involved. But the practical reason is that she had only been in the group for a few months and was still on a probation which all new girls were in when joining the Supremes. Mary was not so traumatized by the effects of working with Diana Ross as she was her replacement; Diana may be temperamental but she gave a show no matter what unless circumstances were beyond her control, which rarely happened.

The sad truth is that the public will pick a winner and whomever is in that person's shadow will struggle for recognition. It happened to the Jacksons. It happened to Vandellas. To Pips. To Temptations and countless other groups. I will maintain that Gordy saw drive in Diana Ross that simply was not there in her bandmates. He is shrewd. He gambled on the one he knew would deliver.

Being said, I think if we focus on NOW and let THEN go because it truly is irrelevant to NOW. I appreciate every song that came out of Motown, they all have their own magic. Who slept with whom and who is responsible for someone else's failures has gotten so tiring. AND IRRELEVANT.

If it bothers a person that someone is sleeping with someone else I thing that person should seek counseling. It should have no issue in the objecting person's life. For instance, look at the Federal worker out of Kentucky that is in jail today for denying same-sex marriage licenses. This lady has been married FOUR TIMES. Speaks for itself. Misery: Thy name is jealousy

Personally my favorite singers at Motown would be Jean Terrell, Syreeta, Tammi Terrell, Martha Reeves and Kim Weston. It is sad that their successes were so limited. But they had opportunities after Motown but it just didn't happen. It's nobody's fault. I feel Lynda Laurence, Scherrie Payne and Susaye Greene could have been showcased more [[as could Cindy) but I appreciate what little I do have of them. I don't listen to this stuff and blame someone else for whatever success they didn't have. Why do that to myself?

I just dance and enjoy it. These boards would be so much more peaceful if the rest of us did.
Perfectly stated.

[RobertZ]

The Cookies and the Supremes were not exactly in the same league. Supremes were the #1 group in the USA.

Does it make a difference if a mugger robs a poor or rich person?

[luke]

Marv...I think you hit a nerve.! Lol... Don't you know by now we can talk about the Martha and Syreeta issue, and the struggles of the Temptations, and Mary Wells and Gladys and the Pips leaving Motown etc etc ..but Miss Ross is a sacred cow! Rather than saying what you desire to you get attacked as a person and judged by some who complain that's what you are doing.when you are simply breaking the "don't talk rule." How many books have been written that discuss the politics and relationships of the Beatles and their behavior?

[jobeterob]

Marv...I think you hit a nerve.! Lol... Don't you know by now we can talk about the Martha and Syreeta issue, and the struggles of the Temptations, and Mary Wells and Gladys and the Pips leaving Motown etc etc ..but Miss Ross is a sacred cow! Rather than saying what you desire to you get attacked as a person and judged by some who complain that's what you are doing.when you are simply breaking the "don't talk rule." How many books have been written that discuss the politics and relationships of the Beatles and their behavior?

Say what you want; you always do

It's just that only you two buy into the conspiracy crap, the victim whine and the pity party when the truth is the people at Motown cared for each other

You are just unhappy old hens that think everyone except Diana was an unhappy miserable victim! rubbish! Go ask Mary! She told you to stop the trash talk several times!

[alanbill1074]

I think I'm probably done with this forum sadly. No one is perfect including Diana Ross, but she does get excessively picked on here. It's like school yard bullying sometimes.

For the record, as this is my last post. I actually dislike Mary Wilson now. Not from anything she's done, and she's been no angel, but because of one or two obsessed fans on here in particular.

Happy travels and a Bon voyage to you all.

[RobertZ]

I think I'm probably done with this forum sadly. No one is perfect including Diana Ross, but she does get excessively picked on here. It's like school yard bullying sometimes.

For the record, as this is my last post. I actually dislike Mary Wilson now. Not from anything she's done, and she's been no angel, but because of one or two obsessed fans on here in particular.

Happy travels and a Bon voyage to you all.
I will personally ask you to stay! Just don't read the posts you see from certain posters and you will find lots of others to have positive conversations with - that's what I've done. I actually feel the same about Mary, btw. Her fan base does not compliment her one bit! Why not start a new thread about someone you are interested in? Hoping to see more posts -

[RobertZ]

Say what you want; you always do

It's just that only you two buy into the conspiracy crap, the victim whine and the pity party when the truth is the people at Motown cared for each other

You are just unhappy old hens that think everyone except Diana was an unhappy miserable victim! rubbish! Go ask Mary! She told you to stop the trash talk several times!
Well, they've finally convinced me! EVERY singer on EVERY record label was treated like kings and queens; no one was ever cheated royal payments, multi-million dollar exit agreement payments, lifetime pensions, complete healthcare, etc - UNTIL the Supremes came along. EVERY woman who ever performed as a Supreme was conspired against, cheated, lifetime blacklisted, you name it! But ONLY Supremes members - NEVER anyone else!

[supremester]

Hey Alan, sorry you are not gonna continue to participate because of a few bad apples - they are not the essence of this forum at all. As with any group, there's going to be a lunatic fringe element that most try to overlook, but, believe me, I often fail at it myself. When you consider the source: nut cases who spend hours every day on various websites under various monikers bashing Diana Ross, well, really it's sad. Especially when they resort to lies, threats of violence, bigotry and, hilariously, accusations about how crazy others are who do the same thing. I'm not a big fan of some of Mary's antics, but she is genuinely horrified that her words and actions helped to create these obsessed nut cases. 99.9999% of Mary's fans are normal people [[as fans go.)

[marv2]

Does it make a difference if a mugger robs a poor or rich person?

Yes it does.

[marv2]

Marv...I think you hit a nerve.! Lol... Don't you know by now we can talk about the Martha and Syreeta issue, and the struggles of the Temptations, and Mary Wells and Gladys and the Pips leaving Motown etc etc ..but Miss Ross is a sacred cow! Rather than saying what you desire to you get attacked as a person and judged by some who complain that's what you are doing.when you are simply breaking the "don't talk rule." How many books have been written that discuss the politics and relationships of the Beatles and their behavior?

I hit a nerve? Well I'm sorry, I'm usually a very safe and responsible driver. I have been here nearly 13 years and yes I know we can talk about all of those artists. Miss Ross may be a cow , but she is not sacred to me. She is just a singer like many of the rest. Luke,
I don't know anything about the "don't talk rule" I also did not have time to read every posting here in this thread so if there is some one attacking me or whatever.................knock it off! I'm going to see Gladys Knight on September 12! I am very happy about that since It's been at least 8 years since I last saw here.

[Roberta75]

Does it make a difference if a mugger robs a poor or rich person?



Yes it does.

wow thats a great moral compas youve got marv2. So what exactly is the difference between mugging and robbing a rich person versus a robbing and mugging a poor person. I was raised to believe wrong is wrong and sin is sin and robbing and mugging is breaking the law regardless of social or financiall status.

[BayouMotownMan]

wow thats a great moral compas youve got marv2. So what exactly is the difference between mugging and robbing a rich person versus a robbing and mugging a poor person. I was raised to believe wrong is wrong and sin is sin and robbing and mugging is breaking the law regardless of social or financiall status.

Wasn't that a horrible thing to say. What kind of animal would promote violence to another human being of any social status? Where is the bottom for this guy?

[supremester]

THAT kind of person. I loved your brilliant, earlier post btw. Wonderful!

I don't believe The Supremes lacked support. I see them like a Big Mac - the biggest selling burger in the 60's. Then they took away the special sauce and added foie gras . Then they took away the burger and added filet mignon - maybe the components are better to some - but it's still no longer a Big Mac - The Supremes without Ross to most people are not The Supremes. Take away Flo and it's even worse. Some thought JMC were better than DMF - which is cool, but still it wasn't what most fans liked about The Supremes. JMC were on TV all the time, had tons of records out, lots of press but very little public interest in them as a group so their album sales were weak and live appearances were slipping. I like the MSC album but it wasn't a standout against the competition, nor were the others and most of their TV appearances were a mess. Motown had no material. Last night I played Ross' What You Gave Me 45 - WTF were they thinking putting a stinker like that out as the only 45 from that hodge podge? Motown was down to the nubs and had little to offer any act. Desperate for dollars, they'd have pushed whatever product they had out there. Look at the push Deborah Harry's Chic album got and it tanked. The public decides.




Wasn't that a horrible thing to say. What kind of animal would promote violence to another human being of any social status? Where is the bottom for this guy?

[vgalindo]

I think I'm probably done with this forum sadly. No one is perfect including Diana Ross, but she does get excessively picked on here. It's like school yard bullying sometimes.

For the record, as this is my last post. I actually dislike Mary Wilson now. Not from anything she's done, and she's been no angel, but because of one or two obsessed fans on here in particular.

Happy travels and a Bon voyage to you all.
Would hate to see you go. But I totally agree with you. I actually dislike Mary now. I used to support her in the past and bought her first album "Red Hot" and "Walk the Line". But now I can't stand to watch or hear her anymore thanks to a couple of her deranged fans!

[Bluebrock]

Wow that the best and most honest post Ive ever written. Thank you.

wishing you a safe and blessed weekend.

Fondly

Roberta
I totally agree Roberta. What a splendid article you wrote BayouMotownMan. Well said friend.

[Bluebrock]

I think I'm probably done with this forum sadly. No one is perfect including Diana Ross, but she does get excessively picked on here. It's like school yard bullying sometimes.

For the record, as this is my last post. I actually dislike Mary Wilson now. Not from anything she's done, and she's been no angel, but because of one or two obsessed fans on here in particular.

Happy travels and a Bon voyage to you all.
I do so hope you come back on board. Please don't let a spiteful few stop you being a member here. We need you on here!! Don't desert us alan.

[motownlover1964]

I've been on this board for 12 or 13 years but don't post too often simply because of the acrimony when it comes to The Supremes and the various members of the group. It seems to me if one posts anything that remotely seems to be "against" any of the girls one gets taken to task very quickly under the guise that it's "in my opinion."

Truth be told I was a huge fan of all the groupings AND a huge fan of Diana when she went solo. I really believed the two-for-one stock split that was said in Las Vegas at their last show. Anyway, I digress.

Does it really matter than Diana has sold 100 million records and that Mary Wilson has sold a few thousand? I mean, really? Everyone knows that Diana was/is a huge success and that Mary never had, never will have the same level of success but now that it's 50 years later wouldn't it be nice if this sniping between camps could put that b.s. aside and relish the fact that both women are still working. It matters not if Diana sells out a 3,000 seat auditorium and Mary can't sell 300 tickets. So what!

In the beginning years all that mattered was seeing them on television and enjoying their huge success. My best friend's parents [[all of them from Detroit) told me back in the early 70s how proud Detroit was of The Supremes and Motown, of course.

Anyway I guess I'm rambling but am saddened to read all the negativity that goes on and on and and on and on.

I'll take my leave now and put on the Where Did Our Love Go and More Hits albums and recall the joyous days of my youth when The Supremes [[all of them) brought such joy to my life.

[RobertZ]

I've been on this board for 12 or 13 years but don't post too often simply because of the acrimony when it comes to The Supremes and the various members of the group. It seems to me if one posts anything that remotely seems to be "against" any of the girls one gets taken to task very quickly under the guise that it's "in my opinion."

Truth be told I was a huge fan of all the groupings AND a huge fan of Diana when she went solo. I really believed the two-for-one stock split that was said in Las Vegas at their last show. Anyway, I digress.

Does it really matter than Diana has sold 100 million records and that Mary Wilson has sold a few thousand? I mean, really? Everyone knows that Diana was/is a huge success and that Mary never had, never will have the same level of success but now that it's 50 years later wouldn't it be nice if this sniping between camps could put that b.s. aside and relish the fact that both women are still working. It matters not if Diana sells out a 3,000 seat auditorium and Mary can't sell 300 tickets. So what!

In the beginning years all that mattered was seeing them on television and enjoying their huge success. My best friend's parents [[all of them from Detroit) told me back in the early 70s how proud Detroit was of The Supremes and Motown, of course.

Anyway I guess I'm rambling but am saddened to read all the negativity that goes on and on and and on and on.

I'll take my leave now and put on the Where Did Our Love Go and More Hits albums and recall the joyous days of my youth when The Supremes [[all of them) brought such joy to my life.
Of course, you're right, and of course, you're wise. I try to remain above the fray, but on the other hand feel the need to defend against those who are demeaning and rumour-mongering. I guess I need to do better at ignoring the haters and conspiracy theorists - and hope you start a thread of your own, maybe about one of the albums - Best to you!

[BayouMotownMan]

Of course, you're right, and of course, you're wise. I try to remain above the fray, but on the other hand feel the need to defend against those who are demeaning and rumour-mongering. I guess I need to do better at ignoring the haters and conspiracy theorists - and hope you start a thread of your own, maybe about one of the albums - Best to you!

Actually Robert I think this board is desparately in need of those of us who provide factual balanced information as opposed to those whose lives are so unhappy they find a need to slander someone seemingly on behalf of someone else who has already chastised that person for doing this.

In reality there were very few saints at Motown. Had there been it is doubtful the company would have been so successful.

[REDHOT]

Leave if you want too,people come and go,like or dislike who ever you want,you're saying you don't like Mary Wilson anymore,why did you have to tell,about something negative,just leave.The Supremes are like BigMac's ? lmao Stop' In The Name Of Love,again you're always sayin' nice but nasty things,you think you know everything about The Supremes,you always find a way,to put all The Supremes down,except Diana,trust me,we all know how much you love her,and theres nothing wrong with that,love who you want,again you love Mary Wilson,you can't stop talking about her,but no one is fooled by your post,a BigMac lol.I love all The Supremes,but Mary is number 1 to me,always has,and always will be. p.s i do respect BayouMotownMan post.

[kenneth]

Marv...I think you hit a nerve.! Lol... Don't you know by now we can talk about the Martha and Syreeta issue, and the struggles of the Temptations, and Mary Wells and Gladys and the Pips leaving Motown etc etc ..but Miss Ross is a sacred cow! Rather than saying what you desire to you get attacked as a person and judged by some who complain that's what you are doing.when you are simply breaking the "don't talk rule." How many books have been written that discuss the politics and relationships of the Beatles and their behavior?

No, it's just that inevitably Marv has to lead every thread into a Diane bashing.

And by the way, there's at least 50 books about the Beatles and their behavior, and their own politics such as with Yoko, in case you were really wondering.

[detmotownguy]

The Supremes really should have ended once Jean left. It was their natural time to end, instead of dragging on and on making acceptable but average disco music [[IMO no need for anyone to go all nuclear on me, I always participate in Supremes threads with trepidation).

The ladies in subsequent versions of the group were all beautiful and talented, but for me, nothing past Floy Joy was really that good, be it in the group or out. Many of the songs were painfully average and to me, that's why they weren't pushed. They simply didn't warrant a huge spend because the potential return wasn't there. Partners was OK, actually better than some Supremes material. If I'd been Mary though I'd have been very vocal about the poor material I was being fobbed off with. That album was extremely weak. She did the best with what she got, which wasn't much.

I agree money was probably tight in the back end of the 70s, which is all the more reason to only spend it where the best return would come.


Not going nuclear lol! ...whenever I loaned out a Sups album esp. High Energy, I always received comments like "I didn't know they sounded like that". Since I could never find their tapes for the car, a friend had to tape it for me. He used to make similar comments. I liked the quality of their work but maybe they should have made a drastic change like Labelle to garner some attention. But they always had talent. Interestingly tho, Mary, Sherrie, and Sussaye have been staying in the business and not disappeared from the music scene. Love those 70's Sups!

[REDHOT]

Love your post Detmotownguy,i also love The Supremes from the 70s.

[ralpht]

I don't know whether to zap the thread or leave it so you all could read it all to see how really stupid it is. Get a grip people, its only music. I'll, let this stand for now, but get it together or it goes.

[RobertZ]

I don't know whether to zap the thread or leave it so you all could read it all to see how really stupid it is. Get a grip people, its only music. I'll, let this stand for now, but get it together or it goes.

My opinion is there's no need to zap. But I would be interested to know, Ralph, if you worked on the "Partners" LP - your recollections and insights are always interesting.

[RobertZ]

Actually Robert I think this board is desparately in need of those of us who provide factual balanced information as opposed to those whose lives are so unhappy they find a need to slander someone seemingly on behalf of someone else who has already chastised that person for doing this.

In reality there were very few saints at Motown. Had there been it is doubtful the company would have been so successful.

Thank you, and I agree - I always look at it as any workplace I have been at. Some get along; some don't. Relationships change. That's life!

[Bluebrock]

I don't know whether to zap the thread or leave it so you all could read it all to see how really stupid it is. Get a grip people, its only music. I'll, let this stand for now, but get it together or it goes.
Well said Ralph. As you rightly say it is only music, and much as we all love the music it is hardly a life and death situation. I reckon you should keep the thread open so that people can read back and see how ridiculous it had all become.

[supremester]

Girl, I said nothing nice or nasty about The Supremes. I merely presented an analogy where you can take a famous, successful product, change the ingredients to even better ingredients but it still isn't the original product regardless of what you call it. I referred to Cindy and jean as better than Diana and Flo, Antoinette. If anything, Diana suffers in the analogy. The point is that it takes more than just talent to become a star. You said you were not gonna ead or respond to me - keep your promise.

1995, a humbled, teary Miss Ross told a wildly enthusiastic crowd that "there are a lot of pretty good singers you could have gone to see tonight in LA. The reason you're here is Berry Gordy."
Leave if you want too,people come and go,like or dislike who ever you want,you're saying you don't like Mary Wilson anymore,why did you have to tell,about something negative,just leave.The Supremes are like BigMac's ? lmao Stop' In The Name Of Love,again you're always sayin' nice but nasty things,you think you know everything about The Supremes,you always find a way,to put all The Supremes down,except Diana,trust me,we all know how much you love her,and theres nothing wrong with that,love who you want,again you love Mary Wilson,you can't stop talking about her,but no one is fooled by your post,a BigMac lol.I love all The Supremes,but Mary is number 1 to me,always has,and always will be. p.s i do respect BayouMotownMan post.

[jobeterob]

Tis a very good post Rick. And also the one from MotownLover1964.

[marybrewster]

I think Scherrie and Susaye would be absolutely disgusted that a thread bearing their names contains such hatred towards ANY Supreme.

[Bluebrock]

I think Scherrie and Susaye would be absolutely disgusted that a thread bearing their names contains such hatred towards ANY Supreme.

marybrewster - well said. There is so much negativity on this forum. I am not saying that everything on this forum should be of a positive nature but the venom sometimes spewed out disgusts me. By all means give out constructive criticism but when someone has to stoop to such depths where they would get vertigo in a sewer I think it is time to have a long hard look at themselves and get the appropriate medical help that they so badly need. End of rant!

[REDHOT]

I agree with you Marybrewster smh

[jobeterob]

Susaye is pretty good at speaking up when she needs to; she has before. I would be sorry and sad to hear that either or both don't like our Forum for this.

I have always wondered what it is like for Mary Wilson's or Diana Ross's children to read YouTube comments which are much worse than anything on here.

But some of these people are trained to deal with the public and such things ~ certainly the Ross children.

I think they all just treat it as water off the back and move on. Still unfortunate.

[midnightman]

I think what happened with the Supremes' fall from grace happens to most groups who go through revolving doors of members. As mentioned here, Jean Terrell kept the group's momentum going until the early 1970s.

It's not unusual for groups after a certain period to make a decline, albeit gradual or sharp. In the case of the Supremes, management was shady and different musical tastes nearly synced them out [[after Jean left, Motown's sound was getting less embraced as Philly groups like the Three Degrees and First Choice picked up where the Supremes and the Vandellas respectively left off and of course let's not forget the Supremes' old rivals, Labelle, getting a resurgence during this period with "Lady Marmalade" and the Nightbirds album and of course the Pointer Sisters came of age during this time giving the music industry a new type of female group mixing old scat and jazz with funk).

So think of it, the Supremes also had a lull after Jean left, with their contracts being negotiated, Lynda left and Cindy returned but then between late 1973 and early 1975, the Supremes couldn't hit the studio until contracts were settled and once they were, they really couldn't compete. Yes they were still as good as the other groups but I'm thinking when they added Scherrie, they were pretty much not as distinguishable as they had been during the Diana and Jean years.

How are you gonna compete when Motown was no longer the leading label in pop music, when their entertainment company was trying to build a solid film career for their former star member and also at a period where Marvin Gaye and Stevie Wonder had become their own artists, and then have to deal with Labelle and the Pointer Sisters, in the words of P-Funk, gaining on ya?

I think the writing was on the wall as far as the Supremes were concerned even after Susaye joined. Mary dealt with years of bad decisions and mismanagement as she admitted herself in "Someday We'll Be Together". Also Berry Gordy was having financial issues and Motown was in the red when High Energy was released hence the surprise they got when "I'm Gonna Let My Heart" became a crossover disco hit [[albeit for a brief period in 1976).

To be honest, I'm surprised the Supremes lasted as long as they did. Who knows what would've happened had some scenarios not occurred but what happened happened. Let's just enjoy all the music that each of them left us. Isn't that more important than wondering who's zooming who?

[marv2]

I think what happened with the Supremes' fall from grace happens to most groups who go through revolving doors of members. As mentioned here, Jean Terrell kept the group's momentum going until the early 1970s.

It's not unusual for groups after a certain period to make a decline, albeit gradual or sharp. In the case of the Supremes, management was shady and different musical tastes nearly synced them out [[after Jean left, Motown's sound was getting less embraced as Philly groups like the Three Degrees and First Choice picked up where the Supremes and the Vandellas respectively left off and of course let's not forget the Supremes' old rivals, Labelle, getting a resurgence during this period with "Lady Marmalade" and the Nightbirds album and of course the Pointer Sisters came of age during this time giving the music industry a new type of female group mixing old scat and jazz with funk).

So think of it, the Supremes also had a lull after Jean left, with their contracts being negotiated, Lynda left and Cindy returned but then between late 1973 and early 1975, the Supremes couldn't hit the studio until contracts were settled and once they were, they really couldn't compete. Yes they were still as good as the other groups but I'm thinking when they added Scherrie, they were pretty much not as distinguishable as they had been during the Diana and Jean years.

How are you gonna compete when Motown was no longer the leading label in pop music, when their entertainment company was trying to build a solid film career for their former star member and also at a period where Marvin Gaye and Stevie Wonder had become their own artists, and then have to deal with Labelle and the Pointer Sisters, in the words of P-Funk, gaining on ya?

I think the writing was on the wall as far as the Supremes were concerned even after Susaye joined. Mary dealt with years of bad decisions and mismanagement as she admitted herself in "Someday We'll Be Together". Also Berry Gordy was having financial issues and Motown was in the red when High Energy was released hence the surprise they got when "I'm Gonna Let My Heart" became a crossover disco hit [[albeit for a brief period in 1976).

To be honest, I'm surprised the Supremes lasted as long as they did. Who knows what would've happened had some scenarios not occurred but what happened happened. Let's just enjoy all the music that each of them left us. Isn't that more important than wondering who's zooming who?


First off, I thought this was about "Partners" an album that was just ok, one that was poorly distributed and promoted. As far as the Supremes lasting as long as they did. They had the potential to have carried on to this very just by looking at Mary Wilson, Scherrie Payne and Susaye Greene. How well each still sing and look today which is much better than you know who! If the Temptations were able to carry on to this day, the Supremes certainly had the same potential and to do so with much fewer new members.

[jillfoster]

http://www.greasylake.org/the-circuit/index.php?/topic/116321-the-supremes-diana-ross-stevie-wonder-and-ray-charlesusa-album-sales/

As good as it gets

125,000 High Energy
50,000 Mary Scherrie & Susaye

Where do these numbers come from, considering Motown never opened up their books to thke RIAA for certification?

[jobeterob]

Somebody has a hold of the Motown records up to 1988 and then used Soundscan thereafter - it looks like. There isn't anything more reliable around. They are a lot more reliable than the RIAA ever was. The RIAA was just used by record companies ~ they would ship a lot and get half returned and have huge certifications that were effectively "fake".

[marv2]

Where do these numbers come from, considering Motown never opened up their books to thke RIAA for certification?

He can't verify those numbers, nor can the person he copied and pasted them from. No numbers Jobeterob posts or will ever post are verifiable! He pulls them out of his.......well you know.

[marv2]

Somebody has a hold of the Motown records up to 1988 and then used Soundscan thereafter - it looks like. There isn't anything more reliable around. They are a lot more reliable than the RIAA ever was. The RIAA was just used by record companies ~ they would ship a lot and get half returned and have huge certifications that were effectively "fake".

No one has gotten ahold of "Motown's Records" or accounting books. A lawyer that use to work for Mr. Gordy told me in New York 3 years ago that there a set of books for just about every purpose and he said this without winking! There is also some other things he said.

[milven]

I remember when Johnny Carson was presented a gold record for an album entitled Here's Johnny: Magic Moments from The Tonight Show in 1974. Although the album was certified gold by the RIAA for shipments to stores of over 500,000 copies, the album was a bomb and returns from retailers of unsold copies were high. Even the huge amount of promotional copies were returned. The classic joke in the music industry at the time was that "it shipped gold and went back to the label platinum".
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71mJbdLc22L._SY450_.jpg

I think RIAA may have changed the certification rules after that embarrassing moment. The album was found in 99 cents cut out bins for years

[midnightman]

First off, I thought this was about "Partners" an album that was just ok, one that was poorly distributed and promoted. As far as the Supremes lasting as long as they did. They had the potential to have carried on to this very just by looking at Mary Wilson, Scherrie Payne and Susaye Greene. How well each still sing and look today which is much better than you know who! If the Temptations were able to carry on to this day, the Supremes certainly had the same potential and to do so with much fewer new members.

Yeah it was about Partners but I wanted to put things in perspective with the usual hoopla that comes with a Supremes thread lol

I'm sure had that Pedro dude not come in the mix, the Supremes as they were with MSS would've continued.

[BayouMotownMan]

Jobete's numbers are from a reputable website and, although skewed some, are within the ballpark of what sold.

I don't credit Pedro with any continuation of The Supremes, but Mary Wilson herself. By going to the press and getting fans to write letters to Motown in 1974, she got those last three lps as a "hush-up" kind of deal. In today's world no record company would have cared that she had been discarded.

And to the member claiming he spoke to a former lawyer of BG's, I don't believe that at all. This is the same person posting false information for years with so-called Motown insiders that are never identified.

[marv2]

Jobete's numbers are from a reputable website and, although skewed some, are within the ballpark of what sold.

I don't credit Pedro with any continuation of The Supremes, but Mary Wilson herself. By going to the press and getting fans to write letters to Motown in 1974, she got those last three lps as a "hush-up" kind of deal. In today's world no record company would have cared that she had been discarded.

And to the member claiming he spoke to a former lawyer of BG's, I don't believe that at all. This is the same person posting false information for years with so-called Motown insiders that are never identified.

Jobeterob's numbers are just that, HIS numbers and are NOT reputable in this life! He could not possibly know what is what nor can you when Berry doesn't!

I wish you had any idea what you are always talking about. Sadly, you don't have a clue!

[jobeterob]

Marv, you're lost again.

Rick is right; those are not my numbers at all. Go to the website and look. They are the most reputable source you'll find.

But one warning. You'll probably have atrial fibrillation because Red Hot is not on the list - it's the de minimus rule ~ they don't report what is too small. You know, it's the size thing again.

[marv2]

Marv, you're lost again.

Rick is right; those are not my numbers at all. Go to the website and look. They are the most reputable source you'll find.

But one warning. You'll probably have atrial fibrillation because Red Hot is not on the list - it's the de minimus rule ~ they don't report what is too small. You know, it's the size thing again.


I am not playing any game so I can't lose. You two clowns just never know what you are talking about. Every now and then I must remind you that I know that!

[BayouMotownMan]

Hey Jobete maybe I should repost that AOL chatroom circa 1999 of you-know-who talking to an obvious scam artist wanting money for a Mary Wilson movie. "Mary is a superstar, she's a goddess, I love her, I love her." Geez that was sad.

[blackguy69]

Kids everyone take a breath and calm down.

[kenneth]

But one warning. You'll probably have atrial fibrillation because Red Hot is not on the list - it's the de minimus rule ~ they don't report what is too small. You know, it's the size thing again.

So size does matter after all...I knew it! LOL

Seriously, it is a little surprising that "Mary Wilson" [[I think you mean the album, not the single) doesn't have any sales figures. I think it was promoted fairly well in major markets. At the San Francisco Tower Records, they had one of their huge hand painted murals painted on the side of the building to promote the LP. I remember driving by and seeing the painter working on it. I would have thought it sold at least as much as the "Partners" album [[which I don't recall hearing anywhere at the time).

[jobeterob]

http://www.greasylake.org/the-circui...a-album-sales/

Seriously Ken, this site lists only the Supremes, Diana Ross, Ray Charles and Stevie Wonder.

It does not list the Mary Wilson album or Partners.

It's nothing but rumour but Partners was said to have had some decent sales; Mary Wilson is said to have not sold well.

Yes, I mixed up Red Hot with Mary Wilson. I think I even ordered the large single of it but I think I gave it to a Wilson fan who could not find it. I should go looking.

[kenneth]

@jobeterob, I couldn't find the page you tried to link to...got a main page about a Bruce Springsteen fan blog. The link didn't take me to the drill down to the album sales page. Not sure why.

The "Red Hot" single promo 12" came in red vinyl. Not sure if the commercial release came that way or not. Fun to have. I can't remember if I have it or not.

[jobeterob]

http://www.greasylake.org/the-circuit/index.php?/topic/116321-the-supremes-diana-ross-stevie-wonder-and-ray-charlesusa-album-sales/

Sorry Ken. Here you go.

[kenneth]

http://www.greasylake.org/the-circuit/index.php?/topic/116321-the-supremes-diana-ross-stevie-wonder-and-ray-charlesusa-album-sales/

Sorry Ken. Here you go.

That worked. Thanks, Rob!