The Supremes - As A Group, Not as a Lead & Two Background Singers

[milven]

In another thread it was asked why Flo and Mary were not featured in Twenty Feet From Stardom since they were background singers.

Today's Huffingtton Post has an article about them respecting the three of them as a group in such albums as Country & Western, A Bit of Liverpool, &Sing Sam Cooke.

On these albums the three of the women sing as a group , sing in harmony, sometimes share leads and are, for the most part, unassisted by The Andantes. It is a positive article and worth reading. It mentions how the Andrews Sisters never used replacements for Maxine and Laverne.

In the Country and Western album, it says

The album's high points are the Supremes' beautiful vocal blending on songs like "Makes No Difference Now" [[also on the Ray Charles album). Here, for the first and only time, each girl gets a solo verse and it's a joy to hear Mary and Flo step out before joining Diana on the climax.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XKlNFSLjjE


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kevin-winkler/aint-that-good-news-the-s_b_7337450.html?utm_hp_ref=entertainment&ir=Entertainment

[marv2]

The Supremes were always regarded and viewed as a group by us , in Detroit. That "Diana Ross & the Supremes" mess was met with frowns, rolled eyes and smirks! LOL! They were a group as this song here is typical of them performing that way................


https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=68&v=SKnXe5kGNoI

[RobertZ]

The Supremes were always regarded and viewed as a group by us , in Detroit. That "Diana Ross & the Supremes" mess was met with frowns, rolled eyes and smirks! LOL! They were a group as this song here is typical of them performing that way................


https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=68&v=SKnXe5kGNoI

Wow - between Gladys Knight and the Pips, Smokey Robinson and the Miracles, Martha Reeves and the Vandellas, Ruby and the Romantics, Clyde McPhatter and the Drifters, Frankie Valli and the Four Seasons, Larry Chance and the Earls, Tommy James and the Shondells, Buddy Holly and the Crickets, Bill Haley and the Comets, Sly and the Family Stone, Kool and the Gang [[to name a few) you Detroiters must have rolled your eyes into quite a bit of strain!

[marv2]

Wow - between Gladys Knight and the Pips, Smokey Robinson and the Miracles, Martha Reeves and the Vandellas, Ruby and the Romantics, Clyde McPhatter and the Drifters, Frankie Valli and the Four Seasons, Larry Chance and the Earls, Tommy James and the Shondells, Buddy Holly and the Crickets, Bill Haley and the Comets, Sly and the Family Stone, Kool and the Gang [[to name a few) you Detroiters must have rolled your eyes into quite a bit of strain!

Nope those were all groups! There was no confusion about it. Whitney Houston, Stevie Wonder, Aretha Franklin, etc, etc, etc now those were solo artist that may have employed background singers when performing live or recording.

[arr&bee]

Yep,they were a group alright....until berry decided that he only needed diana and two backup singers,after[65]that group stuff went out the window,and the sad part is that both[mary and flo]could outsing diana.

[Roberta75]

Heres the entire article and lets not pit one Supreme against the other. Lets all act like responsable adults please.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kevin-winkler/aint-that-good-news-the-s_b_7337450.html?utm_hp_ref=entertainment&ir=Entertainment

Roberta

[marv2]

Yep,they were a group alright....until berry decided that he only needed diana and two backup singers,after[65]that group stuff went out the window,and the sad part is that both[mary and flo]could outsing diana.

JAI ain't that the truth! I don't recall the public demanding that Diane be placed out front or taken out of the group. That was Berry and Diane's idea.

[supremester]

LMAO!!! You can see the result of all that eye rolling - not pretty. All of those "groups" you mention were exactly like The Supremes & DR&TS: A lead and bgs. Lucky for millions of music lovers world wide, Berry Gordy had the vision, wisdom & taste to feature Miss Ross who, for over 5 decades, as been one of the most beloved female vocalists in her category ever. three decades with no hit records, label support or organizational push, Miss Ross is still filling arenas and setting box office records. One can say Berry Gordy was certainly a visionary!
I love the harmony and group sound of DMF. The Huff post's descriptions of their voices is spot on. I play Sam Cooke & CW&P alot - especially the latter. their blend id legendary. without Flo, it wasn't nearly as good. without Ross & Flo, it was nothing special. JMC were great - just not special - as their dwindling popularity showed. You can't just put any 3 singers together and expect magic - even 3 fantastic singers. DMF had it, the others didn't. Oddly, what the public responded to way more than anything, was Ross up front with whoever.


Wow - between Gladys Knight and the Pips, Smokey Robinson and the Miracles, Martha Reeves and the Vandellas, Ruby and the Romantics, Clyde McPhatter and the Drifters, Frankie Valli and the Four Seasons, Larry Chance and the Earls, Tommy James and the Shondells, Buddy Holly and the Crickets, Bill Haley and the Comets, Sly and the Family Stone, Kool and the Gang [[to name a few) you Detroiters must have rolled your eyes into quite a bit of strain!

[Roberta75]

JAI ain't that the truth! I don't recall the public demanding that Diane be placed out front or taken out of the group. That was Berry and Diane's idea.

Which they discuss with you first right?

[RobertZ]

LMAO!!! You can see the result of all that eye rolling - not pretty. All of those "groups" you mention were exactly like The Supremes & DR&TS: A lead and bgs. Lucky for millions of music lovers world wide, Berry Gordy had the vision, wisdom & taste to feature Miss Ross who, for over 5 decades, as been one of the most beloved female vocalists in her category ever. three decades with no hit records, label support or organizational push, Miss Ross is still filling arenas and setting box office records. One can say Berry Gordy was certainly a visionary!
I love the harmony and group sound of DMF. The Huff post's descriptions of their voices is spot on. I play Sam Cooke & CW&P alot - especially the latter. their blend id legendary. without Flo, it wasn't nearly as good. without Ross & Flo, it was nothing special. JMC were great - just not special - as their dwindling popularity showed. You can't just put any 3 singers together and expect magic - even 3 fantastic singers. DMF had it, the others didn't. Oddly, what the public responded to way more than anything, was Ross up front with whoever.
Glad 'ya liked it! And your comment is very good. As I've said many times - lots of people are wonderful singers; few are stars.

I always wonder - do these eyerolls continue when spotting an ad for "Former Ladies OF the Supremes", or "Sherrie and Lynda OF the Supremes", or "Mary Wilson OF the Supremes"? Or is it just that one name "... and the Supremes" that gets the googles going?! It's quite a hierarchy of pronouns, proper names, conjunctions, and definite articles to keep track of!

[supremester]

I don't know what's sad about that: the group went out the window and into the history books - out singing s an interesting term considering the result. Mahalia Jackson & Ethel Merman could "out sing" all three, but had very few hits in the 1960's. The sad part to me is that these better singers didn't get snapped up by other companies and have even bigger careers than Diane. It's a damn shame.


Yep,they were a group alright....until berry decided that he only needed diana and two backup singers,after[65]that group stuff went out the window,and the sad part is that both[mary and flo]could outsing diana.

[supremester]

That's 'cos you were breathing in all that smoke and bad air from the riots and it has affected your memory. The public outside of Detroit was demanding it daily. And lucky they listened as the last Supremes concert: Diana Ross & The Supremes Return To Love on July 9, 2000 was an SRO sellout at Madison Square Garden with even the standing room gone - they resorted to selling tix behind the curtain [[no view - just sound) for 49.99 plus fees. an excellent way for a group to go out: ON TOP!!!


JAI ain't that the truth! I don't recall the public demanding that Diane be placed out front or taken out of the group. That was Berry and Diane's idea.

[woodward]

Heres the entire article and lets not pit one Supreme against the other. Lets all act like responsable adults please.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kevin-winkler/aint-that-good-news-the-s_b_7337450.html?utm_hp_ref=entertainment&ir=Entertainment

Roberta
Putting all personalities aside which could get out of hand, I personally think that the entire situation can be simplified as follows:

It's 50th Anniversary last summer went virtually unnoticed by all but diehard fans. Similar landmark anniversaries for the Beatles, Beach Boys, and Rolling Stonres were WIDELY celebrated with reissues and tributes.
This is a tragedy the lack of attention their 50th Anniversary received.

[RobertZ]

Putting all personalities aside which could get out of hand, I personally think that the entire situation can be simplified as follows:

It's 50th Anniversary last summer went virtually unnoticed by all but diehard fans. Similar landmark anniversaries for the Beatles, Beach Boys, and Rolling Stonres were WIDELY celebrated with reissues and tributes.
This is a tragedy the lack of attention their 50th Anniversary received.
Well that gets my Amen! There were a flurry of notices about this and that song's 50th but nothing major. I did my best with Facebook posts -

[supremester]

It is sad, but Universal is not behind DR&TS anymore and didn't do squat. Maybe if there was a better situation with all group members, it would have been different. I'm sure if DMCJSLS had been besties, a lot more would have happened.

[woodward]

Well that gets my Amen! There were a flurry of notices about this and that song's 50th but nothing major. I did my best with Facebook posts -

Lack of publicity for these accomplishments is a major crime in my opinion. I sent an email to the Editor of the Washington Post suggesting a story about the 50th Anniversary, [[SILENCE). Not even a response.

Additionally, when the 50th Anniversary of the Motown Revues was upcoming, I also sent them an email suggesting they do a story on the revues and how important they were to the nation. Again, [[SILENCE). I pointed out that the opening night of the nationwide tour was on Friday, October 26, 1962 at the Howard Theatre in Washington, DC. It would have made a great story with an emphasis on Washington, DC.

[jobeterob]

Lack of publicity for these accomplishments is a major crime in my opinion. I sent an email to the Editor of the Washington Post suggesting a story about the 50th Anniversary, [[SILENCE). Not even a response.

Additionally, when the 50th Anniversary of the Motown Revues was upcoming, I also sent them an email suggesting they do a story on the revues and how important they were to the nation. Again, [[SILENCE). I pointed out that the opening night of the nationwide tour was on Friday, October 26, 1962 at the Howard Theatre in Washington, DC. It would have made a great story with an emphasis on Washington, DC.

The fact that an original Supreme is deceased, that some of the later day Supremes weren't there for any of the major hits and the fact there is no real contact and no real possibility of anything like a reunion tour has not helped the Supremes at all.

And beyond that, it's all about Diana anyway ~ she's the only one acknowledged and known by the public and so there is no incentive for the press to cover the Supremes. To get any coverage, you've got to go to less well known on line coverage or some minor magazine ~ or go to us on SD!

[RobertZ]

The fact that an original Supreme is deceased, that some of the later day Supremes weren't there for any of the major hits and the fact there is no real contact and no real possibility of anything like a reunion tour has not helped the Supremes at all.

And beyond that, it's all about Diana anyway ~ she's the only one acknowledge and known by the public and so there is no incentive for the press to cover the Supremes. To get any coverage, you've got to go to less well known on line coverage or some minor magazine ~ or go to us on SD!
"Tough love" but so true! And I hope some posters here don't have your home address ...
:D

[vgalindo]

The fact that an original Supreme is deceased, that some of the later day Supremes weren't there for any of the major hits and the fact there is no real contact and no real possibility of anything like a reunion tour has not helped the Supremes at all.

And beyond that, it's all about Diana anyway ~ she's the only one acknowledged and known by the public and so there is no incentive for the press to cover the Supremes. To get any coverage, you've got to go to less well known on line coverage or some minor magazine ~ or go to us on SD!
This is so true. The general public really only know Diana ross. Its not like the Beatles who all of their members had their own successful solo careers.

[supremester]

That's why she's billed ".....of The Supremes" otherwise people might think she's the Mary from The Women or 227

[thomas96]

Yep,they were a group alright....until berry decided that he only needed diana and two backup singers,after[65]that group stuff went out the window,and the sad part is that both[mary and flo]could outsing diana.

Right on baby.

[RobertZ]

That's why she's billed ".....of The Supremes" otherwise people might think she's the Mary from The Women or 227

RIMSHOT! Above all Mr. Gordy was a businessman, and if Bubba sang better than Gladys, Lois than Martha, Duke than Levi, etc., etc., they would have been moved into the lead.

[RobertZ]

But back to point 1, it's a great article and I thank you for posting it.

[marv2]

Right on baby.

Exactly! He told the truth and there is nothing more to say...................

[luke]

As the point of the article is that their supreme talent and excitement emerged when they were a real group, it doesn't diminish any member so no point to jump up and down. It celebrates their talent and the magic when they harmonized and each personna emerged. As that changed so did some of the excitement. After Flo left as Mary said it was all over..the real group magic. I agree due to their estrangement less interest in 50 the anniversary..at least that's part of the reason..very astute article and recognition. Thanks!

[antceleb12]

The Supremes, no doubt, were in their prime when EACH Supremes' talents were utilized equally. I don't care what the charts say, or what Diana's concert draw says. Their is nothing like Diana, Mary, and Florence singing in three-part harmony. For example...

"I Hear a Symphony" - in live performances, the ending always gave me chills. Florence's high soprano knocked it out of the park.
"People" - Their harmonies were absolutely stellar.
"It Makes No Difference Now" - They took a country song and really took it to church on this one.
"After All," "Never Again," "My Heart Can't Take It No More" - All of these early tracks, despite Diana's nasally sound, showcase the tight, warm harmonies the girls were originally known for.
"Cupid," "Bring it On Home to Me," "Chain Gang," "Ain't That Good News" - No further comment needed.
"Long Gone Lover" - Their powerful blend causes a little feedback in the recording, but again - 'supreme' blend.

[detmotownguy]

The Supremes, no doubt, were in their prime when EACH Supremes' talents were utilized equally. I don't care what the charts say, or what Diana's concert draw says. Their is nothing like Diana, Mary, and Florence singing in three-part harmony. For example...

"I Hear a Symphony" - in live performances, the ending always gave me chills. Florence's high soprano knocked it out of the park.
"People" - Their harmonies were absolutely stellar.
"It Makes No Difference Now" - They took a country song and really took it to church on this one.
"After All," "Never Again," "My Heart Can't Take It No More" - All of these early tracks, despite Diana's nasally sound, showcase the tight, warm harmonies the girls were originally known for.
"Cupid," "Bring it On Home to Me," "Chain Gang," "Ain't That Good News" - No further comment needed.
"Long Gone Lover" - Their powerful blend causes a little feedback in the recording, but again - 'supreme' blend.
tel:928-268-3064

Nicely said.

[thomas96]

RIMSHOT! Above all Mr. Gordy was a businessman, and if Bubba sang better than Gladys, Lois than Martha, Duke than Levi, etc., etc., they would have been moved into the lead.

Unfortunately, talent isn't the only thing that yields success in the business. And BG knew that. Diana had that "it" factor in her looks, the way she spoke and dressed and in her nasal singing that made her such a star. I personally hate her singing and don't think she's very good compared to other female recording artists at Motown, but I can see how it would appeal to the general public with untrained ears. It's poppy and catchy. People can hear it and it gets stuck in their head. Doesn't mean she's better than Mary or Flo or other female singers there.

[BigAl]

... It mentions how the Andrews Sisters never used replacements for Maxine and Laverne.

Only partly true. During LaVerne's final illness and after her passing in 1967, Patty and Maxene recruited Joyce DeYoung to fill that space and she performed with them until they disbanded in 1968.

[supremester]

Nor does it mean she's less talented. IMO, she's supremely talented and proved it early on with her cuts on Meet The Supremes. While untrained and inexperienced in the studio, she still exhibited essential vocal styling and approach to the different cuts that would stand out to any trained ear. She puts more life into "Those DJ Shows" at age 16 than Mary in her sleep walk thru Come And Get These Memories or most of Flo's solos. She didn't have the volume of Flo or the heft of Mary - both fine voices, but her interp and rhythmic tenacity outshines them all IMO, and the public responds to it - then, and today if you read her review from last night. Who's better is only a matter of taste and can be nothing but. Who was the best choice for BG to lead the group he wanted, cannot be disputed. I love their harmonies, I love Mary on Baby Don't Go and a few Flo things, but I feel they were awkward vocalists - especially Flo. Mary became a good vocalist, I don't know that Flo would have, but I adored her in the group just as she was: Flo.


Unfortunately, talent isn't the only thing that yields success in the business. And BG knew that. Diana had that "it" factor in her looks, the way she spoke and dressed and in her nasal singing that made her such a star. I personally hate her singing and don't think she's very good compared to other female recording artists at Motown, but I can see how it would appeal to the general public with untrained ears. It's poppy and catchy. People can hear it and it gets stuck in their head. Doesn't mean she's better than Mary or Flo or other female singers there.

[marv2]

Diana Ross sounded like a squeaky mouse singing through a fan until Holland-Dozier-Holland took over producing the group. That is why all of their early singles failed with her on the lead. Even to this day, her voice is not pleasing to my ears.

Dionne Warwick? Now that's a singer!

[milven]

Diana Ross sounded like a squeaky mouse singing through a fan until Holland-Dozier-Holland took over producing the group. That is why all of their early singles failed with her on the lead. Even to this day, her voice is not pleasing to my ears.
Dionne Warwick? Now that's a singer!

And that "squeaky mouse voice that even to this day is not pleasing to the ears" was on their first flop on Lu-Pine "Tears of Sorrow".

But I wonder why Buttered Popcorn with Flo's voice, "which is pleasing to the ears" was not a hit.

And why, was Pretty Baby with Mary's "non-squeaky mouse voice"not a hit? :confused::confused:

[marv2]

"Pretty Baby" was on a label that could not promote it beyond Detroit City limits let alone distribute it beyond Michigan. "Butter Popcorn" was a tug of war between Berry Gordy wanting to pull it vs Barney Ales, knowing it had hit potential wanting to promote it. Diane did not have a good voice to most people in those days. She needed to be heavily produced to the point of being spoon fed the lyrics to the songs according to Robin Seymour.

[captainjames]

Well, with all being said could've, would've , should have ....Diana was the lead voice that took the Supremes to Super Stardom. Sorry, that we can't re-write history and thank you HDH, Berry, the Andantes and the Funk Brothers. It was an amazing ride.

[BigAl]

Goodness knows I'm no champion of Diane by any stretch of the imagination, but it can't be argued that she was the best choice to lead the group for the kind of crossover success which Gordy envisioned. In addition, she had the obsessive drive to push herself tirelessly to get to the top, no matter what it took [[and, sadly, no matter who might get trampled in the process). But, as they say, that's showbiz. HDH must be credited for how they were able to tailor material brilliantly to her reedy voice to maximum effect. Mary and Florence were indispensable in making the group unique, however. Someone once termed The Supremes as being slick [[Diane), sexy [[Mary), and Sassy [[Flo), and that interplay was essential. Diane as a solo could not have managed it, nor could Mary or Flo, either, for that matter. It's regrettable [[nay, almost criminal) that the latter two were eventually so underutilized. It was my opinion, then and now, that, while Diane was the best choice to lead the group on the singles, no contest, Mary and Flo ought to have been allowed plenty of leads on albums and especially in live performance, rather the just the occasional one-off. This would not have hampered Diane's success one bit, but that wasn't the plan as Diane and Berry saw it, and, for better or for worse, they were in charge.

[detmotownguy]

Diana Ross sounded like a squeaky mouse singing through a fan until Holland-Dozier-Holland took over producing the group. That is why all of their early singles failed with her on the lead. Even to this day, her voice is not pleasing to my ears.

Dionne Warwick? Now that's a singer!

If it wasn't for HDH, I wonder what level of success they would have achieved with other writers/producers? Their harmonizing as a group was quite nice.

[marv2]

If it wasn't for HDH, I wonder what level of success they would have achieved with other writers/producers? Their harmonizing as a group was quite nice.

Well they did try other producers and just wasn't happening and Diane was singing the lead!

[franjoy56]

[QUOTE=marv2;285606]Well they did try other producers and just wasn't happening and Diane was singing the lead![/QUOTEsome things you should never get use to? Diana and ashford and simpson as the supremes

[marv2]

[QUOTE=marv2;285606]Well they did try other producers and just wasn't happening and Diane was singing the lead![/QUOTEsome things you should never get use to? Diana and ashford and simpson as the supremes

That's right Fran and years prior to that Smokey, Berry, Clarence Paul etc tried their hand at producing them.

[Roberta75]

"Pretty Baby" was on a label that could not promote it beyond Detroit City limits let alone distribute it beyond Michigan. "Butter Popcorn" was a tug of war between Berry Gordy wanting to pull it vs Barney Ales, knowing it had hit potential wanting to promote it..

If Pretty baby had hit written all over it trust me it would have got out of Detroit city limit and charted. Butter Popcorn did not have hit potential imo and your off in fantasay land again lol.

Roberta

[marv2]

If Pretty baby had hit written all over it trust me it would have got out of Detroit city limit and charted. Butter Popcorn did not have hit potential imo and your off in fantasay land again lol.

Roberta

Trust you? You don't even know what you are talking about. Trust you LOL!!!!

[franjoy56]

[QUOTE=Roberta75;285610]If Pretty baby had hit written all over it trust me it would have got out of Detroit city limit and charted. Butter Popcorn did not have hit potential imo and your off in fantasay land again lol.

Buttered popcorn was a novelty record with silly lyrcs, but if barney ales would have been given the green light to,promote it it would have made the charts, that record had potential. Just because berry diidnt like it doesnt mean the rest of the public didnt it was not heard for it to be a hit. I remember seeing buttered popcorn in the record bin for 39cents in 1964 on tamla i never heard it so ii bought 3 copies and gave two of them to my friends i said to myself that the same lady whom sang the outro to long gone lover, cause i had the album wdolg i read the liner notes and found out the lady who sang the top harmony was FLORENCE BALLARD, and did a fab job on buttered popcorn inspite ov its greasey and salty what do u like u lyrics

[thisoldheart]

for the most part hdh were the only producers who knew how to use ross's unique voice and the only group of writers who could consistently give them hit material. i am not convinced the supremes could have become a powerhouse group without them. same goes for the tops. a whole lotta magic happened when hdh and the supremes hooked up.

[thomas96]

If Pretty baby had hit written all over it trust me it would have got out of Detroit city limit and charted. Butter Popcorn did not have hit potential imo and your off in fantasay land again lol.

Roberta

Lu Pine wouldn't have a chance pushing it.

[Roberta75]

Lu Pine wouldn't have a chance pushing it.

But the Atlantic label worked with Lu Pine to release selected singles for national distribution and if Atlantic thought Buttered Popcorn and pretty baby could have been hits theyd have made them hits.

[captainjames]

Diana was going to be a "star" no matter who was singing behind her. You could have put two male singers behind her and Mr. Gordy was not going to stop until he had his dream. As a package the Supremes were good to look at but let us not forget that in the studio sometimes Diana was also lead and background vocals, ie; "You Keep Me Hanging On". In listening to HDH talk about WDOLG I often wondered if a version with Mary singing actually existed and what it would have sounded like. People always talk about all the Supremes songs that tanked before WDOLG but in reality it was one album; "Meet The Supremes" which by now I am sure its gold. Mary was very pretty on stage and still is but it takes more than just a pretty face to deliver a song and be an entertainer. Unfortunately, there is not enough out there to question Florence's potential and to give it a fair shake.

[marv2]

[QUOTE=Roberta75;285610]If Pretty baby had hit written all over it trust me it would have got out of Detroit city limit and charted. Butter Popcorn did not have hit potential imo and your off in fantasay land again lol.

Buttered popcorn was a novelty record with silly lyrcs, but if barney ales would have been given the green light to,promote it it would have made the charts, that record had potential. Just because berry diidnt like it doesnt mean the rest of the public didnt it was not heard for it to be a hit. I remember seeing buttered popcorn in the record bin for 39cents in 1964 on tamla i never heard it so ii bought 3 copies and gave two of them to my friends i said to myself that the same lady whom sang the outro to long gone lover, cause i had the album wdolg i read the liner notes and found out the lady who sang the top harmony was FLORENCE BALLARD, and did a fab job on buttered popcorn inspite ov its greasey and salty what do u like u lyrics


Berry Gordy also did not like "What's Goin' On?".......... There were other smash hits that Berry did not like.

"Buttered Popcorn" had that "Mashed Potatoes" beat that was popular at the time.

[marv2]

Lu Pine wouldn't have a chance pushing it.

You can't explain anything to Roberta. Her mind works differently than a normal person...........

[marv2]

But the Atlantic label worked with Lu Pine to release selected singles for national distribution and if Atlantic thought Buttered Popcorn and pretty baby could have been hits theyd have made them hits.


Now, you see what I am saying? LOL!!!!

[marv2]

for the most part hdh were the only producers who knew how to use ross's unique voice and the only group of writers who could consistently give them hit material. i am not convinced the supremes could have become a powerhouse group without them. same goes for the tops. a whole lotta magic happened when hdh and the supremes hooked up.

I agree....so does Mary Wilson, which is why she always gives them praise and recognition every chance she gets! I don't know if Diane acknowledges HDH much publicly.

[supremester]

No one got trampled in The Supremes. I wonder how many girls in The Brewster Projects, when asked if they would like to sing bg ONLY in the biggest group in US history and become famous worldwide and make a ton of dough would say, "Oh NO! THAT wouldn't be fair. I'M not going to be trampled on. I'll go back to the projects, thanks anyway." Berry only signed The primettes because of Ross. There would be no Supremes without her. Zero. No Smokey audition. No Berry's interest asking to hear Ross' song again. Nothing. Berry didn't like Mary's voice and thought Flo was too ghetto. He didn't HAVE to like them. He told them what he wanted: Diana the sole lead. They agreed. They should have left Motown or shut up about it after they agreed. No one held a gun to their heads to sing bg - they agreed. People act like Berry had an obligation to support talent he didn't believe in. It's nuts. No one sought the services of Mary and/or Flo after they left Motown either. No one at all. HDH started Invictus right there in Detroit and could have signed either. Gil & Ross had to fight Berry to get people back in after The Copa and again to get Mary her spot on the song -he agreed only after Ross was sick and told Berry she needed the rest. Berry didn't WANT Flo or Mary to have any leads or to speak in interviews. . Miss Ross didn't have to give up People - she wanted Mary & Flo to have something and Mary knows that. She stabbed Ross in the back for it. Those are facts. No one at Motown felt Mary or Flo "was competition" for Ross - that BS came later by innuendo in Dreamgirl where Mary talked about People being taken away at The Copa, but forget to add that Flo would be singing it again just 3 weeks later - AND that Mary would be duetting on it with Flo on it. I wonder why Mary would forget to say that????? Hmmmmmm..... Berry & Diana did nothing sneaky, devious or underhanded - the agenda persued was exactly the agenda presented /agreed to DMF in 1963. They should have left then. Not much would be different in the long run: Ross would still have gotten rave reviews for her show last night in Atlanta.The Supremes had 3 31's and two hit albums before they were on Ed Sullivan. I think Flo & Mary were grea - the best possible Supremes - but not essential. Harvey Fuqua told me A LOT about the workings of the group, and his version doesn't jell with Marys, but it does with Gil & Colly's and Mrs Powell - ALL of which I have on tape.


QUOTE=BigAl;285603]Goodness knows I'm no champion of Diane by any stretch of the imagination, but it can't be argued that she was the best choice to lead the group for the kind of crossover success which Gordy envisioned. In addition, she had the obsessive drive to push herself tirelessly to get to the top, no matter what it took [[and, sadly, no matter who might get trampled in the process). But, as they say, that's showbiz. HDH must be credited for how they were able to tailor material brilliantly to her reedy voice to maximum effect. Mary and Florence were indispensable in making the group unique, however. Someone once termed The Supremes as being slick [[Diane), sexy [[Mary), and Sassy [[Flo), and that interplay was essential. Diane as a solo could not have managed it, nor could Mary or Flo, either, for that matter. It's regrettable [[nay, almost criminal) that the latter two were eventually so underutilized. It was my opinion, then and now, that, while Diane was the best choice to lead the group on the singles, no contest, Mary and Flo ought to have been allowed plenty of leads on albums and especially in live performance, rather the just the occasional one-off. This would not have hampered Diane's success one bit, but that wasn't the plan as Diane and Berry saw it, and, for better or for worse, they were in charge.[/QUOTE]

[marv2]

No one got trampled in The Supremes. I wonder how many girls in The Brewster Projects, when asked if they would like to sing bg ONLY in the biggest group in US history and become famous worldwide and make a ton of dough would say, "Oh NO! THAT wouldn't be fair. I'M not going to be trampled on. I'll go back to the projects, thanks anyway." Berry only signed The primettes because of Ross. There would be no Supremes without her. Zero. No Smokey audition. No Berry's interest asking to hear Ross' song again. Nothing. Berry didn't like Mary's voice and thought Flo was too ghetto. He didn't HAVE to like them. He told them what he wanted: Diana the sole lead. They agreed. They should have left Motown or shut up about it after they agreed. No one held a gun to their heads to sing bg - they agreed. People act like Berry had an obligation to support talent he didn't believe in. It's nuts. No one sought the services of Mary and/or Flo after they left Motown either. No one at all. HDH started Invictus right there in Detroit and could have signed either. Gil & Ross had to fight Berry to get people back in after The Copa and again to get Mary her spot on the song -he agreed only after Ross was sick and told Berry she needed the rest. Berry didn't WANT Flo or Mary to have any leads or to speak in interviews. . Miss Ross didn't have to give up People - she wanted Mary & Flo to have something and Mary knows that. She stabbed Ross in the back for it. Those are facts. No one at Motown felt Mary or Flo "was competition" for Ross - that BS came later by innuendo in Dreamgirl where Mary talked about People being taken away at The Copa, but forget to add that Flo would be singing it again just 3 weeks later - AND that Mary would be duetting on it with Flo on it. I wonder why Mary would forget to say that????? Hmmmmmm..... Berry & Diana did nothing sneaky, devious or underhanded - the agenda persued was exactly the agenda presented /agreed to DMF in 1963. They should have left then. Not much would be different in the long run: Ross would still have gotten rave reviews for her show last night in Atlanta.The Supremes had 3 31's and two hit albums before they were on Ed Sullivan. I think Flo & Mary were grea - the best possible Supremes - but not essential. Harvey Fuqua told me A LOT about the workings of the group, and his version doesn't jell with Marys, but it does with Gil & Colly's and Mrs Powell - ALL of which I have on tape.




That's right. Go ahead and throw away whole chunks of the story in order to continue to foster your "Diana Ross Agenda!" LOL! First of all when Florence asked Mary and Mary asked Diane to join the Primettes, they were not World Famous or knew they would earn millions [[most of which they would never see or enjoy themselves.......). The only things the Smokey Robinson audition yielded the girls were Smokey stealing guitarist Marv Tarplin away and Berry Gordy brushing them off by telling them to go finish high school!

The girls started hanging out a Hitsville everyday until they needed THEM to do handclaps on a Mary Wells record. Then THEYwere used for background vocals on another record,etc,etc until Berry noticed that THEY were serious about singing and signed THEM to Motown in January 1961. That's what really happened! There would have never been a Supremes were it not for Florence Ballard who started the Primettes. Diane would not even have had a recording career because her father was against it until Paul Williams and Eddie Kendricks persuaded him to let her join the Primettes!

You claim that Berry Gordy did not like Mary Wilson's voice. Berry gave Mary Wilson the song "Baby Don't Go", a song he himself had written for her to record. He not only recorded it on her, he released it on the album "Meet the Supremes". He never told Florence that she sounded too ghetto. That sounds racist coming from you to begin with. True he wanted to crossover to white audiences, so he used Diane's novelty sounding voice to do it, backed by Florence and Mary. How were Mary and Florence going to just leave Motown when they were under contract? Why on Earth would Berry Gordy put them under contract if he did not like the way either of them sang? You make no sense whatsoever.

[luke]

Lol how trrue! Even Diana has praised Florences voice. Didn't Mr. Ross think daughter Barbara had a better singing voice?

[milven]

Well, with all being said could've, would've , should have ....Diana was the lead voice that took the Supremes to Super Stardom. Sorry, that we can't re-write history and thank you HDH, Berry, the Andantes and the Funk Brothers. It was an amazing ride.

Wouda, Couda, Shouda !! The article complimented the three woman as a group with perfect harmony. Harmony that was not utilized enough. Their hits were done with a lead singer and background singers. The HDH songs are still being sung by some members of that group fifty years later. Would these songs be remembered fifty years later if a Supreme other than Diana sang the lead on the record? I guess we will never know.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYNUnJbyE7U

[milven]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PxKBKl0ey8

[Roberta75]

Berry gave Mary Wilson the song "Baby Don't Go", a song he himself had written for her to record. He not only recorded it on her, he released it on the album "Meet the Supremes".

i had no idea Mr Gordy wrote Baby Dont Go for Mary Wilson. Wonder why it wasnt a hit. With Gordy behind it Im real surprised it didnt go anywhere.

[kenneth]

It's too bad this thread looks in danger of going South.

I thought it was a great article. Definitely, the 3-part harmonies added much to the early Supremes' success. There's no doubt about it. This is the group my beloved grandmother used to say about, "I don't know why, but I just love those 3 girls!"

As the years went by, I know that myself and many others I knew bemoaned the more antiseptic sound of the records and the backgrounds Of course, we had no idea who the Andantes were; we just wondered why the backgrounds became so "thin". Of course, we attributed it to Gordy's promotion of Diane's celebrity status and to a large degree, I think that was true.

So in my opinion, the Supremes' career with Diane on lead there definitely existed a "before" and an "after." The early days all 3 Supremes were known, loved and sang their you know what off. The later days the background singers were obviously relegated to the, well, background. I think the group suffered from this as they lost a lot of their group identity.

But that was clearly the intention to help Diane springboard to her own solo spot.

"Better" voices is a tricky concept. Certainly, singers can be technically better than others. Florence may have had a stronger voice, though on some performances I find her voice lacks excitement. [["O Holy Night" comes to mind; it's a turgid arrangement and Florence's voice sounds dull and lifeless.) I don't see how Mary could be viewed as having a technically better voice than Diane, but I'm not an expert at judging such things.

But Diane's voice obviously had the quirkiness, the X-factor, the sound that people remembered. I remember one critic wrote once of her "Ross got more mileage out of her sighs and pauses for breath than she did her own vocals at times." She knew how to put over a song, and her voice was obviously the most memorable.

To me, this takes nothing away from the others. As someone else pointed out, it's unlikely the group would have had the success it did without Diane. The "new" Supremes were a different group which added their own strengths with Jean, and then of course later with Scherrie and Susaye.

Clearly the latter day lineups all represented different phases of the girls' career. But I think even the Diane years can be divided into two phases, one extremely strong, and the later one, where the group became secondary and Diane was clearly in the forefront. The material, although tailor made for her, was largely weaker aside from "Love Child." I like "Someday" now but thought it dull and monotonous back then. But clearly Gordy was just searching for a way for Diane to exit the group with a hit song behind her, and certainly "Someday" was perfect for that.

[marv2]

Lol how trrue! Even Diana has praised Florences voice. Didn't Mr. Ross think daughter Barbara had a better singing voice?

Yes she did praise Flo's voice. Mr. Ross did say that about Bobbie and also told Paul Williams that they should probably take her instead because Diane......did not have a "Group Mentality"!

[Roberta75]

Yes she did praise Flo's voice. Mr. Ross did say that about Bobbie and also told Paul Williams that they should probably take her instead because Diane......did not have a "Group Mentality"!

"Bobbie" lol. You seriously think of yourself as the spokesperson for the Supremes or this great Ross insider. Dianes sisters name is Barbara unless she personaly ask you to call her "Bobbie" lol Which we all know she didnt and if Barbara knew the malice and filth you say about her sister Diane on youtube she would probably kick you where the sun dont shine.

you are are real real funny. Bobby. lol.

[Roberta75]

It's too bad this thread looks in danger of going South.

I thought it was a great article. Definitely, the 3-part harmonies added much to the early Supremes' success. There's no doubt about it. This is the group my beloved grandmother used to say about, "I don't know why, but I just love those 3 girls!"

As the years went by, I know that myself and many others I knew bemoaned the more antiseptic sound of the records and the backgrounds Of course, we had no idea who the Andantes were; we just wondered why the backgrounds became so "thin". Of course, we attributed it to Gordy's promotion of Diane's celebrity status and to a large degree, I think that was true.

So in my opinion, the Supremes' career with Diane on lead there definitely existed a "before" and an "after." The early days all 3 Supremes were known, loved and sang their you know what off. The later days the background singers were obviously relegated to the, well, background. I think the group suffered from this as they lost a lot of their group identity.

But that was clearly the intention to help Diane springboard to her own solo spot.

"Better" voices is a tricky concept. Certainly, singers can be technically better than others. Florence may have had a stronger voice, though on some performances I find her voice lacks excitement. [["O Holy Night" comes to mind; it's a turgid arrangement and Florence's voice sounds dull and lifeless.) I don't see how Mary could be viewed as having a technically better voice than Diane, but I'm not an expert at judging such things.

But Diane's voice obviously had the quirkiness, the X-factor, the sound that people remembered. I remember one critic wrote once of her "Ross got more mileage out of her sighs and pauses for breath than she did her own vocals at times." She knew how to put over a song, and her voice was obviously the most memorable.

To me, this takes nothing away from the others. As someone else pointed out, it's unlikely the group would have had the success it did without Diane. The "new" Supremes were a different group which added their own strengths with Jean, and then of course later with Scherrie and Susaye.

Clearly the latter day lineups all represented different phases of the girls' career. But I think even the Diane years can be divided into two phases, one extremely strong, and the later one, where the group became secondary and Diane was clearly in the forefront. The material, although tailor made for her, was largely weaker aside from "Love Child." I like "Someday" now but thought it dull and monotonous back then. But clearly Gordy was just searching for a way for Diane to exit the group with a hit song behind her, and certainly "Someday" was perfect for that.


And there go the voice of reason my dears.

thank you Kenneth.

fondly,

Roberta

[kenneth]

And there go the voice of reason my dears.

thank you Kenneth.

fondly,

Roberta

Thanks Roberta! I try!!!

[supremester]

DREAMGIRL: MY LIFE AS A SUPREME - MIDDLE OF PAGE 30

"She [[flo) had been approached by a member of a male vocal trio called The Primes and their manager about forming a girls group to perform with his clients. Two other girls had already been recruited."

IS THAT GOOD ENOUGH FOR YOU? Flo started NOTHING. Mary invited NO ONE. This story has been told a thousand times the same way, girlfriend.

You can call me racist all you want, everyone who knows me - including my mixed kids, don't think of me that way. I used "ghetto" because I wouldn't use the term Harvey used to describe Flo. "Ghetto" is much more complementary.

Not only did Berry not like Mary's voice - I'm told he just plain didn't care for Mary period. No one in Artist Development was in favor of giving Mary a lead. Even May's friend Cholly. Like Taylor Cox said, I'll put my money on Diana because I wanna get paid of Friday." Berry told Mary to her face that she couldn't sing - it's no secret. Mary was not allowed to lead The 70's Supremes - only Lynda & Jean were - if it was up to Mary, per her book, they had to cancel.

I've said many times I love Mary's voice on ballads, Love Baby Don't Go and LOVED Flo in the group. This is in response to Diana trampling anyone - that's total BS. Berry, Harvey, Gil, Maxine and Cholly all agreed that it was all about Diana. That doesn't diminish the others per se', but the ONLY reason Mary got any solos at all - AT ALL - it at the behest of Gil and Diana. The only thing getting trampled is the truth. Diana didn't WANT all the responsibility on her every night, all night, 3x a night. She was exhausted. Gil knew it. And, sadly, Mary knows this too, just forgot to put it in her book somehow. Well, with SO much to remember............



That's right. Go ahead and throw away whole chunks of the story in order to continue to foster your "Diana Ross Agenda!" LOL! First of all when Florence asked Mary and Mary asked Diane to join the Primettes, they were not World Famous or knew they would earn millions [[most of which they would never see or enjoy themselves.......). The only things the Smokey Robinson audition yielded the girls were Smokey stealing guitarist Marv Tarplin away and Berry Gordy brushing them off by telling them to go finish high school!

The girls started hanging out a Hitsville everyday until they needed THEM to do handclaps on a Mary Wells record. Then THEYwere used for background vocals on another record,etc,etc until Berry noticed that THEY were serious about singing and signed THEM to Motown in January 1961. That's what really happened! There would have never been a Supremes were it not for Florence Ballard who started the Primettes. Diane would not even have had a recording career because her father was against it until Paul Williams and Eddie Kendricks persuaded him to let her join the Primettes!

You claim that Berry Gordy did not like Mary Wilson's voice. Berry gave Mary Wilson the song "Baby Don't Go", a song he himself had written for her to record. He not only recorded it on her, he released it on the album "Meet the Supremes". He never told Florence that she sounded too ghetto. That sounds racist coming from you to begin with. True he wanted to crossover to white audiences, so he used Diane's novelty sounding voice to do it, backed by Florence and Mary. How were Mary and Florence going to just leave Motown when they were under contract? Why on Earth would Berry Gordy put them under contract if he did not like the way either of them sang? You make no sense whatsoever.

[luke]

One of the Supreme books stated that Betty was able to keep Diana in line when they were the Primettees which helped group cohesion.

[supremester]

I've been saying the same thing for years, Ken. So little was put into the group's recordings after HDH left. I don't know why. Those hodge podge albums from 68&69 are awful - with Diana hoare on some and lousy material on others.

No one knows who is better - only who they like. One can assume with the phenomenal success of The Supremes and Ross' subsequent successes for 45 years, she was the "best" choice to lead The Supremes envisioned by Berry Gordy.


It's too bad this thread looks in danger of going South.

I thought it was a great article. Definitely, the 3-part harmonies added much to the early Supremes' success. There's no doubt about it. This is the group my beloved grandmother used to say about, "I don't know why, but I just love those 3 girls!"

As the years went by, I know that myself and many others I knew bemoaned the more antiseptic sound of the records and the backgrounds Of course, we had no idea who the Andantes were; we just wondered why the backgrounds became so "thin". Of course, we attributed it to Gordy's promotion of Diane's celebrity status and to a large degree, I think that was true.

So in my opinion, the Supremes' career with Diane on lead there definitely existed a "before" and an "after." The early days all 3 Supremes were known, loved and sang their you know what off. The later days the background singers were obviously relegated to the, well, background. I think the group suffered from this as they lost a lot of their group identity.

But that was clearly the intention to help Diane springboard to her own solo spot.

"Better" voices is a tricky concept. Certainly, singers can be technically better than others. Florence may have had a stronger voice, though on some performances I find her voice lacks excitement. [["O Holy Night" comes to mind; it's a turgid arrangement and Florence's voice sounds dull and lifeless.) I don't see how Mary could be viewed as having a technically better voice than Diane, but I'm not an expert at judging such things.

But Diane's voice obviously had the quirkiness, the X-factor, the sound that people remembered. I remember one critic wrote once of her "Ross got more mileage out of her sighs and pauses for breath than she did her own vocals at times." She knew how to put over a song, and her voice was obviously the most memorable.

To me, this takes nothing away from the others. As someone else pointed out, it's unlikely the group would have had the success it did without Diane. The "new" Supremes were a different group which added their own strengths with Jean, and then of course later with Scherrie and Susaye.

Clearly the latter day lineups all represented different phases of the girls' career. But I think even the Diane years can be divided into two phases, one extremely strong, and the later one, where the group became secondary and Diane was clearly in the forefront. The material, although tailor made for her, was largely weaker aside from "Love Child." I like "Someday" now but thought it dull and monotonous back then. But clearly Gordy was just searching for a way for Diane to exit the group with a hit song behind her, and certainly "Someday" was perfect for that.

[marv2]

DREAMGIRL: MY LIFE AS A SUPREME - MIDDLE OF PAGE 30

"She [[flo) had been approached by a member of a male vocal trio called The Primes and their manager about forming a girls group to perform with his clients. Two other girls had already been recruited."



Look, I done told you twice on this forum in the last year how it all went down! You could ask me a third time with Mary standing right next to me and it will be the way I said it and Mary will tell you ......Marv has it right!

[Roberta75]

One of the Supreme books stated that Betty was able to keep Diana in line when they were the Primettees which helped group cohesion.

Betty McGlown-Travis was the last person to join the Primettes and stayed for less than a year so your theory about Betty keeping Diane in line dont make a lot of sense.

Roberta

[marv2]

One of the Supreme books stated that Betty was able to keep Diana in line when they were the Primettees which helped group cohesion.

That is true. Diane had a bit of that character "Sister" from "Sparkle" in her. She as a wild tomboy and Betty would have to threaten to kick her ass if she didn't straighten up. That is the only thing Diane understood clearly in those days LOL!

[marv2]

Betty McGlown-Travis was the last person to join the Primettes and stayed for less than a year so your theory about Betty keeping Diane in line dont make a lot of sense.

Roberta


Yes it does. I wish Betty and /or Pete her cousin were still around they could tell ya how it was.

[Roberta75]

That is true. Diane had a bit of that character "Sister" from "Sparkle" in her. She as a wild tomboy and Betty would have to threaten to kick her ass if she didn't straighten up. That is the only thing Diane understood clearly in those days LOL!

Did you like the gowns in Sparkle marv2? Which Sparkle did you like best the 1976 or the 2012 remake? I loved the clothes in the Irene Cara originol.

[Roberta75]

Yes it does. I wish Betty and /or Pete her cousin were still around they could tell ya how it was.

Oh well at least Betty and cousin Pete told you how it was and thank the Good Lord youre sharing the information with us.

[marv2]

Oh well at least Betty and cousin Pete told you how it was and thank the Good Lord youre sharing the information with us.


Man, did you forget to meet Redhot again....................?

[kenneth]

I've been saying the same thing for years, Ken. So little was put into the group's recordings after HDH left. I don't know why. Those hodge podge albums from 68&69 are awful - with Diana hoare on some and lousy material on others.

No one knows who is better - only who they like. One can assume with the phenomenal success of The Supremes and Ross' subsequent successes for 45 years, she was the "best" choice to lead The Supremes envisioned by Berry Gordy.

Thanks supremester...K

[supremester]

That's right. Go ahead and throw away whole chunks of the story in order to continue to foster your "Diana Ross Agenda!" LOL! First of all when Florence asked Mary and Mary asked Diane to join the Primettes, they were not World Famous or knew they would earn millions [[most of which they would never see or enjoy themselves.......). The only things the Smokey Robinson audition yielded the girls were Smokey stealing guitarist Marv Tarplin away and Berry Gordy brushing them off by telling them to go finish high school!

Marv, honey, that was an analogy. A "what if" to point out that, had they known how it would turn out, would they have preferred not to be involved? That''s all. All the whining makes one wonder how many projects girls would have been unhappy. I wasn't saying that's how it was, girlfriend.


[[QUOTE: You claim that Berry Gordy did not like Mary Wilson's voice. Berry gave Mary Wilson the song "Baby Don't Go", a song he himself had written for her to record. He not only recorded it on her, he released it on the album "Meet the Supremes". He never told Florence that she sounded too ghetto. That sounds racist coming from you to begin with. True he wanted to crossover to white audiences, so he used Diane's novelty sounding voice to do it, backed by Florence and Mary. How were Mary and Florence going to just leave Motown when they were under contract? Why on Earth would Berry Gordy put them under contract if he did not like the way either of them sang? You make no sense whatsoever.

He recorded one song on her and not another for 17 years. TOLD her she couldn't sing. she said. All I'm saying is what Harvey & Gil told me Berry thought. They built the Supremes' show. Just the facts. Clearly Mary was good on her solos. Gordy still didn't like her. He wouldn't support the 80's Supremes if Mary sang leads. None of this is news to you. All I'm saying is she had many chances to leave and go where she could be happy, treated to her liking and sing all the leads she wanted. Gordy would have happily released her and Flo in '63 I'm sure and added Sandra Tilley, Marlene, Barbara Randolf - whoever. None would be as good as Mary & Flo, but I think essentially, their success would have been similar - just as Smokey said.

[marv2]

He recorded one song on her and not another for 17 years. TOLD her she couldn't sing. she said. All I'm saying is what Harvey & Gil told me Berry thought. They built the Supremes' show. Just the facts. Clearly Mary was good on her solos. Gordy still didn't like her. He wouldn't support the 80's Supremes if Mary sang leads. None of this is news to you. All I'm saying is she had many chances to leave and go where she could be happy, treated to her liking and sing all the leads she wanted. Gordy would have happily released her and Flo in '63 I'm sure and added Sandra Tilley, Marlene, Barbara Randolf - whoever. None would be as good as Mary & Flo, but I think essentially, their success would have been similar - just as Smokey said.

Ahhh , he told her that to get her to stop pestering him on one day! He told people he would not marry Diane because she was too much of a bitch. Does that mean he meant that?

Gil nor Harvey were not members of the Supremes. Did Gil ever get his drinking under control?

[supremester]

So you say Mary is lying in her book and interviews? Why would Mary lie about it? Is she ashamed of bring Ross into the group? We all know there are lots of untruths in Marys books, but why would she lie about this, girlfriend? LOL Oh, she's not. YOU are.



Look, I done told you twice on this forum in the last year how it all went down! You could ask me a third time with Mary standing right next to me and it will be the way I said it and Mary will tell you ......Marv has it right!

[marv2]

So you say Mary is lying in her book and interviews? Why would Mary lie about it? Is she ashamed of bring Ross into the group? We all know there are lots of untruths in Marys books, but why would she lie about this, girlfriend? LOL Oh, she's not. YOU are.

I never said or ever will say Mary lied about anything. She simply could not remember all the details from so many years ago. She had to interview many people and receive info from many sources to document many events to an incredible life story she has lived. Mary's book is the Gospel when it comes to the Supremes . Anyone that doesn't like it simply does not like the fact that it had to cast Diana Ross in a negative light in order to tell the truth behind their story.

I have no reason to lie, nor does Mary Wilson. Now Diana Ross fanatics have plenty of reasons to lie because that book destroyed Diane for good in America and she has not recovered yet. She had a chance to tell her side,but refused to let Mary interview her for the book and the rest is history.

[supremester]

Oh, so Mary couldn't remember how The Primettes began or how she met Diana Ross? Is that what you are saying? Maxine and Flo had the same memory problems? Paul & Eddie had the same memory probems? Diana had the same memory problems?

I think YOU have a problem! You remember you: the guy who stated Mary got her Hollywood Palace solo because the asst director told Berry Gordy he wanted it to be fair and then you kicked that dude out of MWOS for checking with Mary? LOLOLOL, Sorry Missy, I think it's your memory.



I never said or ever will say Mary lied about anything. She simply could not remember all the details from so many years ago. She had to interview many people and receive info from many sources to document many events to an incredible life story she has lived. Mary's book is the Gospel when it comes to the Supremes . Anyone that doesn't like it simply does not like the fact that it had to cast Diana Ross in a negative light in order to tell the truth behind their story.

I have no reason to lie, nor does Mary Wilson. Now Diana Ross fanatics have plenty of reasons to lie because that book destroyed Diane for good in America and she has not recovered yet. She had a chance to tell her side,but refused to let Mary interview her for the book and the rest is history.

[kenneth]

@Marv2, as much as I love Mary and believe her books to be great contributions to the Supremes legacy, there are some inaccuracies in them. Mary, for example, never revealed that Diane had helped her save her house from foreclosure even though it came out later [[I forget where). That seemed to be a deliberate omission so as not to give Diane credit where credit was due. An omission may not be a lie per se, but it certainly led to a misrepresentation of, as we say, a "material fact." She did leave that out, didn't she? Tell me if I'm wrong.

I think Mary and Diane are like sisters in a love-hate relationship. No matter what, they have decades-old hurts from long ago that bubble to the surface now and then.

I mostly respect Mary's very detailed accounting of the early years. Her recall of names, dates and places was phenomenal. I believe she mentions in the book she'd kept a journal. No one could have filled her in on these early details as accurately as if she'd kept the information herself.

[marv2]

@Marv2, as much as I love Mary and believe her books to be great contributions to the Supremes legacy, there are some inaccuracies in them. Mary, for example, never revealed that Diane had helped her save her house from foreclosure even though it came out later [[I forget where). That seemed to be a deliberate omission so as not to give Diane credit where credit was due. An omission may not be a lie per se, but it certainly led to a misrepresentation of, as we say, a "material fact." She did leave that out, didn't she? Tell me if I'm wrong.

I think Mary and Diane are like sisters in a love-hate relationship. No matter what, they have decades-old hurts from long ago that bubble to the surface now and then.

I mostly respect Mary's very detailed accounting of the early years. Her recall of names, dates and places was phenomenal. I believe she mentions in the book she'd kept a journal. No one could have filled her in on these early details as accurately as if she'd kept the information herself.


Kenneth as much as you try.... oh forget it. I'll just get to the point. I know you know what chronological order means. Mary's first book went from 1944 [[the year she was born) up to 1970 when Diana Ross left the group with a small summary of Florence's passing and Motown 25. Her second book covered roughly 1970 -90. That $30,000 loan she took out from Diane and repaid with interest happened in 1981 and Mary Wilson does cover it in her second book "Supreme Faith" so I don't know what you are talking about.

It took Diane up to about 2007 to acknowledge and thank Mary Wilson for the contributions Mary had made to her career. Now I want to go out and enjoy my Memorial Day weekend. Take care and good luck in coming up with something new that is truthful!

One more thing. If Mary Wilson was hell bent on slamming Diane with her books she could have chosen to tell how Berry Gordy got Diana Ross pregnant out of wedlock and Ross going on to marry another man knowing it was not his kid. Mary knew about it, but she sure did not write about it. When she was asked on television interviews, she refused to discuss it. Now give Mary some credit!

[luke]

I've never understood that criticism of Mary. Ross even said it in 2000 interview with B Walters. Such bs. Mary most certainly did talk about it in her next book when she picked up the story in 1970 which is where it should have been chronologically. The loan came a number if years later..with interst!!lol

[marv2]

I've never understood that criticism of Mary. Ross even said it in 2000 interview with B Walters. Such bs. Mary most certainly did talk about it in her next book when she picked up the story in 1970 which is where it should have been chronologically. The loan came a number if years later..with interst!!lol

I understand it completely. They are full of something and want to portray something about Mary that is not there........ They make stuff up like she purposely left out borrowing and paying back money to Diana Ross to try to make Mary look bad and Diane look better. It does not work because it does not add up! The loan occurred in 1981 after Diane signed with RCA and Mary divorced Mr. Ferrer after he had decimated Mary's finances. The first book was primarily about the 60s. I don't really recall Diana Ross helping anyone.. Wait, she did build that little playground in Central Park for a bunch rich kids living on the UWS of Manhattan, but then it was only after Mayor Koch threaten to sue her on behalf of the city!

[kenneth]

Marv, I was not being dogmatic. I was saying what I remembered. You know I have nothing against Mary. You do not need to lump me in with others who are "full of something." I was asking, after all. To my recollection, the house was discussed in the first book and then later discussed again in the second where she mentioned the loan. Apparently, I was wrong. It's certainly not a big deal and was not intended as a barb.

[midnightman]

I have the compunction again to say the Marvelettes, Martha and the Vandellas and the non-Motowners Patti LaBelle and the Bluebelles could sweep all three Supremes under the rug vocally and stage wise but I decided not to be catty.

We promised each other we wouldn't go there again and here we are back in the thick of it... smh

And that's all I'll add to it, I'll let y'all talk amongst yourselves...

[kenneth]

How right you are, midnightman. But I hope you're not lumping me in with that tendency. I was trying to have a reasonable discussion and had that question to ask. Anyway, thanks for your comment.

[mowsville]

Did anyone threaten Diana to make her help pay for Mary Wells medical bills? GROW UP.

[marv2]

Did anyone threaten Diana to make her help pay for Mary Wells medical bills? GROW UP.

Nah, but Mayor Ed Koch was determined Diana Ross was not going to stiff the City of New York with at that big bill for services for her Central Park Concert and let her walk away without paying for that playground she promised. So he went public and threaten to sue her ass off! It worked, Miss Ross coughed up $250,000 [["of my own money") in a hurry! LOL! Now you grow up!

[captainjames]

What you are reading is the second or third revision..........................Mary was told to re-write her story so the public would buy it.

[supremester]

Only a rancid _____ would say you are writing nonfiction and make up lies, innuendo and misleading moments about others to pay her bills. Anyone with a shred of integrity would not do that just to sell books. Supposedly she wrote it to share her story. To exacerbate her duplicity, Mary then claimed she had no idea why Diana stopped talking to her lyin' ass. HA! Geez, Mary own up to your stuff.

[marv2]

Only a rancid _____ would say you are writing nonfiction and make up lies, innuendo and misleading moments about others to pay her bills. Anyone with a shred of integrity would not do that just to sell books. Supposedly she wrote it to share her story. To exacerbate her duplicity, Mary then claimed she had no idea why Diana stopped talking to her lyin' ass. HA! Geez, Mary own up to your stuff.


If Miss Wilson lied, why hasn't she been sued?

[marv2]

She hasn't been sued because it was all true! You should be grateful that she did not tell everything, you would not be able to take it. It's been nearly 30 years since Mary released her NY Times Bestseller and the book that would become the best selling music related autobiography in history!

[captainjames]

If Miss Wilson lied, why hasn't she been sued?

Mary has admitted herself that its the way she saw it,,,,,,,,,,
Flo, Diana, Cindy, Jean, Lynda, Scherrie, Barbara, Berry, HDH and others did not see it that way. Its weird but you can put 2 people in the same situation and they can have totally different stories.

[captainjames]

Diana did write her rebuttal to set the record straight but returned the money and kept the book to give to her children. Someday it may come out and perhaps it will never will. I guess the Lady was more concerned that her children knew the truth behind what Mary had written.

[blackguy69]

Diana did write her rebuttal to set the record straight but returned the money and kept the book to give to her children. Someday it may come out and perhaps it will never will. I guess the Lady was more concerned that her children knew the truth behind what Mary had written.
I can see this thread went way down south. Once again this turned into a Diana vs. Mary thread. How can you still argue about stuff that happened 30 years ago. You need to let go of what happened decades ago [[and I mean both sides) and celebrate the music they made.

[midnightman]

How right you are, midnightman. But I hope you're not lumping me in with that tendency. I was trying to have a reasonable discussion and had that question to ask. Anyway, thanks for your comment.

Nah I wasn't. Don't worry. :)

[supremester]

What has that got to do with Mary Wells?

Nah, but Mayor Ed Koch was determined Diana Ross was not going to stiff the City of New York with at that big bill for services for her Central Park Concert and let her walk away without paying for that playground she promised. So he went public and threaten to sue her ass off! It worked, Miss Ross coughed up $250,000 [["of my own money") in a hurry! LOL! Now you grow up!

[supremester]

You just got through saying the book was not all true. That Mary was wrong about the formation of the group and who invited who in. Read your own words above, decide on a sto-ray, and stick to it. Like your Hollywood Palace fable. LOL. GUUUUURRRLLL it ain't all true. Read about Flo on The Tonight Show and watch the full clip. Mary just made stuff up as she went along because she had never heard of Al Gore so she never would have expected the internet to be her undoing.

Did Mary sue Tony Turner? Was THAT all true? She said publicly it wasn't true. Not everyone wants to waste their time on lawsuits and BS. Ross didn't sue Gerald Posner either. Miss Ross be happy, healthy, digging her life and career and not having to deal with "things" she doesn't want to deal with. Sue Mary for what? Mary has no money and Ross doesn't need any [[even though you claim she's broke having lost all her money with Bernie Madoff LOLOL - good one, honey!) and if she did sue Mary, it would just wind up more tabloid trash and get Mary on TV complaining again. Better just to talk to her every 13 years when they run into each other - unintentionally. ; )



She hasn't been sued because it was all true! You should be grateful that she did not tell everything, you would not be able to take it. It's been nearly 30 years since Mary released her NY Times Bestseller and the book that would become the best selling music related autobiography in history!

[franjoy56]

But the Atlantic label worked with Lu Pine to release selected singles for national distribution and if Atlantic thought Buttered Popcorn and pretty baby could have been hits theyd have made them hits.
Buttered popcorn and baby dont go were products under motown records they threw those tracks on their 1st album one of them was relesed as a single no promotion end of story.

[luke]

What the heck? What did Mary lie about? Shelley Berger told her she was TOO NICE in her book! Lol...geez and some people complain about stuff said about Diana. Lolol

[captainjames]

Dreamgirls !!!!
Lawsuit ???
None............

[antceleb12]

No one got trampled in The Supremes. I wonder how many girls in The Brewster Projects, when asked if they would like to sing bg ONLY in the biggest group in US history and become famous worldwide and make a ton of dough would say, "Oh NO! THAT wouldn't be fair. I'M not going to be trampled on. I'll go back to the projects, thanks anyway." Berry only signed The primettes because of Ross. There would be no Supremes without her. Zero. No Smokey audition. No Berry's interest asking to hear Ross' song again. Nothing. Berry didn't like Mary's voice and thought Flo was too ghetto. He didn't HAVE to like them. He told them what he wanted: Diana the sole lead. They agreed. They should have left Motown or shut up about it after they agreed. No one held a gun to their heads to sing bg - they agreed. People act like Berry had an obligation to support talent he didn't believe in. It's nuts. No one sought the services of Mary and/or Flo after they left Motown either. No one at all. HDH started Invictus right there in Detroit and could have signed either. Gil & Ross had to fight Berry to get people back in after The Copa and again to get Mary her spot on the song -he agreed only after Ross was sick and told Berry she needed the rest. Berry didn't WANT Flo or Mary to have any leads or to speak in interviews. . Miss Ross didn't have to give up People - she wanted Mary & Flo to have something and Mary knows that. She stabbed Ross in the back for it. Those are facts. No one at Motown felt Mary or Flo "was competition" for Ross - that BS came later by innuendo in Dreamgirl where Mary talked about People being taken away at The Copa, but forget to add that Flo would be singing it again just 3 weeks later - AND that Mary would be duetting on it with Flo on it. I wonder why Mary would forget to say that????? Hmmmmmm..... Berry & Diana did nothing sneaky, devious or underhanded - the agenda persued was exactly the agenda presented /agreed to DMF in 1963. They should have left then. Not much would be different in the long run: Ross would still have gotten rave reviews for her show last night in Atlanta.The Supremes had 3 31's and two hit albums before they were on Ed Sullivan. I think Flo & Mary were grea - the best possible Supremes - but not essential. Harvey Fuqua told me A LOT about the workings of the group, and his version doesn't jell with Marys, but it does with Gil & Colly's and Mrs Powell - ALL of which I have on tape.



Goodness knows I'm no champion of Diane by any stretch of the imagination, but it can't be argued that she was the best choice to lead the group for the kind of crossover success which Gordy envisioned. In addition, she had the obsessive drive to push herself tirelessly to get to the top, no matter what it took [[and, sadly, no matter who might get trampled in the process). But, as they say, that's showbiz. HDH must be credited for how they were able to tailor material brilliantly to her reedy voice to maximum effect. Mary and Florence were indispensable in making the group unique, however. Someone once termed The Supremes as being slick [[Diane), sexy [[Mary), and Sassy [[Flo), and that interplay was essential. Diane as a solo could not have managed it, nor could Mary or Flo, either, for that matter. It's regrettable [[nay, almost criminal) that the latter two were eventually so underutilized. It was my opinion, then and now, that, while Diane was the best choice to lead the group on the singles, no contest, Mary and Flo ought to have been allowed plenty of leads on albums and especially in live performance, rather the just the occasional one-off. This would not have hampered Diane's success one bit, but that wasn't the plan as Diane and Berry saw it, and, for better or for worse, they were in charge.

You're diving quite deep into hearsay and conjecture here. For instance, "He told them what he wanted: Diana the sole lead. They agreed." I have never seen this printed anywhere or spoken by anyone. Berry did not outright tell them he only wanted Diana by even a stretch. In fact, he told them he didn't want them at ALL at that first audition. Not Diana.

Second, in regards to the "Oh NO! THAT wouldn't be fair. I'M not going to be trampled on. I'll go back to the projects, thanks anyway," argument, you are out of context. Flo and Mary were not happy with several complicated issues, including their underutilization in the group, Diana's constant special treatment, and Berry's growing snubbing of not only Mary and Flo's talents, but everyone else's as well. You say that any other girl would not have turned down a part to sing backup in the most famous group, but then you say that if Mary and Flo didn't like it, they shouldn't have stayed. That's contradictory. Not to mention the girls were only teenagers and, reasonably, had no understanding of the complicated politics of show business. Were they expected to, as high schoolers, see Berry's long-term plan for crossover appeal? The girls wanted to SING. Eventually, Mary and Flo were relegated to "ooh's" and "ahh's," and as girls who worked so hard and for so long on their craft, that's pretty insulting.

In regards to "leaving" when Diana was chosen in 1963, you cannot possibly believe it was that simple. First, they were under contract. Legally that was not possible. Second, even though Berry told them they wanted Diana on leads, the girls were still quite highly utilized - if not so much on leads, on harmony. Just because you don't like something right off the bat, you don't just leave. The girls worked too hard to do that. That's not the sneaky part. The sneaky part was gradually reducing Mary and Flo's vocal parts, their levels on recordings, and, finally, their involvement altogether on records. Berry straight up told Mary that she couldn't sing, and Flo was once [[at least) told to stand several feet away from the mic. It wasn't the single time of being told that Diana was going to be lead that destroyed the group unity. It was repeated occurrences of conflicts of interest that was rightfully perceived as unfair by not only Mary and Flo, but other acts in Motown, as well.

Re: Diana trampling others. You can not deny that, at least in the early days, Diana behaved quite wildly, and frankly, poorly, to many in the Motown caravan. It's all documented. Threatening to run over Mary Wells, jumping on others for a can of hairspray, and outright stealing stage patter of other acts. Admittedly, the former two examples lack sustainable credibility, but her selfish behavior back in those days is well documented by many. That's not to say that Diana did not mature, but she burned a lot of bridges in those early days. I love Diana and think she is a great entertainer, but it cannot be argued that she instigated trouble on a number of occasions. Part of that, of course, comes from a lack of maturity, but regardless...

Regarding Mary and Flo being non-essential. Fans knew each Supreme by name. Fans definitely had their favorites, and not all of them like Diana. When Berry considered not having Florence appear at the Copa in 1966, Jules Podell INSISTED that each original Supreme appear. When Flo was ousted, fans demanded that she be reinstalled - continuing all the way through Diana's leaving. The sound of the records changed drastically once Flo left or once the Andantes replaced the girls. It's not a coincidence that records didn't sell as well once that unique sound was tampered with. The Supremes as DMF had a unique, inimitable sound. Once the Andantes replaced them, that was destroyed. As good as the Andantes were, they can be heard on countless records by other artists, thereby negating that 'unique' factor. Not to mention that Mary, Flo, and Diana each had their very own, defined personalities. Eventually, especially once Cindy came in, their was no more individual personalities. Quite literally, the name change from "The Supremes" as a solid unit to "Diana Ross & the Supremes" set Diana as the sole personality of the group with Cindy and Mary as merely background singers. They were still successful live, but droves of fans turned away once that group solidarity was destroyed.

[marv2]

You're diving quite deep into hearsay and conjecture here. For instance, "He told them what he wanted: Diana the sole lead. They agreed." I have never seen this printed anywhere or spoken by anyone. Berry did not outright tell them he only wanted Diana by even a stretch. In fact, he told them he didn't want them at ALL at that first audition. Not Diana.

Second, in regards to the "Oh NO! THAT wouldn't be fair. I'M not going to be trampled on. I'll go back to the projects, thanks anyway," argument, you are out of context. Flo and Mary were not happy with several complicated issues, including their underutilization in the group, Diana's constant special treatment, and Berry's growing snubbing of not only Mary and Flo's talents, but everyone else's as well. You say that any other girl would not have turned down a part to sing backup in the most famous group, but then you say that if Mary and Flo didn't like it, they shouldn't have stayed. That's contradictory. Not to mention the girls were only teenagers and, reasonably, had no understanding of the complicated politics of show business. Were they expected to, as high schoolers, see Berry's long-term plan for crossover appeal? The girls wanted to SING. Eventually, Mary and Flo were relegated to "ooh's" and "ahh's," and as girls who worked so hard and for so long on their craft, that's pretty insulting.

In regards to "leaving" when Diana was chosen in 1963, you cannot possibly believe it was that simple. First, they were under contract. Legally that was not possible. Second, even though Berry told them they wanted Diana on leads, the girls were still quite highly utilized - if not so much on leads, on harmony. Just because you don't like something right off the bat, you don't just leave. The girls worked too hard to do that. That's not the sneaky part. The sneaky part was gradually reducing Mary and Flo's vocal parts, their levels on recordings, and, finally, their involvement altogether on records. Berry straight up told Mary that she couldn't sing, and Flo was once [[at least) told to stand several feet away from the mic. It wasn't the single time of being told that Diana was going to be lead that destroyed the group unity. It was repeated occurrences of conflicts of interest that was rightfully perceived as unfair by not only Mary and Flo, but other acts in Motown, as well.

Re: Diana trampling others. You can not deny that, at least in the early days, Diana behaved quite wildly, and frankly, poorly, to many in the Motown caravan. It's all documented. Threatening to run over Mary Wells, jumping on others for a can of hairspray, and outright stealing stage patter of other acts. Admittedly, the former two examples lack sustainable credibility, but her selfish behavior back in those days is well documented by many. That's not to say that Diana did not mature, but she burned a lot of bridges in those early days. I love Diana and think she is a great entertainer, but it cannot be argued that she instigated trouble on a number of occasions. Part of that, of course, comes from a lack of maturity, but regardless...

Regarding Mary and Flo being non-essential. Fans knew each Supreme by name. Fans definitely had their favorites, and not all of them like Diana. When Berry considered not having Florence appear at the Copa in 1966, Jules Podell INSISTED that each original Supreme appear. When Flo was ousted, fans demanded that she be reinstalled - continuing all the way through Diana's leaving. The sound of the records changed drastically once Flo left or once the Andantes replaced the girls. It's not a coincidence that records didn't sell as well once that unique sound was tampered with. The Supremes as DMF had a unique, inimitable sound. Once the Andantes replaced them, that was destroyed. As good as the Andantes were, they can be heard on countless records by other artists, thereby negating that 'unique' factor. Not to mention that Mary, Flo, and Diana each had their very own, defined personalities. Eventually, especially once Cindy came in, their was no more individual personalities. Quite literally, the name change from "The Supremes" as a solid unit to "Diana Ross & the Supremes" set Diana as the sole personality of the group with Cindy and Mary as merely background singers. They were still successful live, but droves of fans turned away once that group solidarity was destroyed.

I can very much appreciate your post, because it is the truth!

[luke]

And the single thing that had the most to do with the disharmony was taking Flos People solo away from her. And for all of that stuff per Berry's genius that was a hugely stupid thing to do per group cohesion...much less helping to break Flos spirit.

[BigAl]

It's all documented. Threatening to run over Mary Wells...
Actually, Gladys Horton was the target of that vehicular maneuver.

[supremester]

Mary lied about Diana taking People from Flo. Flo was ill and they wanted the song in as it was a smash hit song from a current Broadway show, so Ross did the whole thing UNTIL Flo was ok and it went back to a duet. Mary implied it was "Flo's song" and that she never sang it again. Mary also "forgot" to mention that SHE wound up singing it with Flo - Mary's first solo in the act - somehow all that got left out except for the Diana took People part.
That's one example of her BS.
Want more?


What the heck? What did Mary lie about? Shelley Berger told her she was TOO NICE in her book! Lol...geez and some people complain about stuff said about Diana. Lolol

[midnightman]

^ Really? I was left under the impression that after Diana agreed to do the song [[at Florence's request), only Diana was allowed to sing it? Then again, that may have been trying to build more to the story than it was. The Supremes, like many of the Motown legends, led a complex story that impacted three people in three different ways.

[supremester]

You're diving quite deep into hearsay and conjecture here. For instance, "He told them what he wanted: Diana the sole lead. They agreed." I have never seen this printed anywhere or spoken by anyone. Berry did not outright tell them he only wanted Diana by even a stretch. In fact, he told them he didn't want them at ALL at that first audition. Not Diana.

I wasn't referring to that in the audition. He told them that in 1963. They agreed. They could have left. They were nobodies - like Barbara Martin - Berry would have let them go. He did not prize their talent like say, Mary Wells. THAT, he'd litigate for. People don't litigate unless there is money or some other prize. What would Berry get if he sued Flo & Mary - food stamps?

Second, in regards to the "Oh NO! THAT wouldn't be fair. I'M not going to be trampled on. I'll go back to the projects, thanks anyway," argument, you are out of context. Flo and Mary were not happy with several complicated issues, including their underutilization in the group, Diana's constant special treatment, and Berry's growing snubbing of not only Mary and Flo's talents, but everyone else's as well. You say that any other girl would not have turned down a part to sing backup in the most famous group, but then you say that if Mary and Flo didn't like it, they shouldn't have stayed. That's contradictory. Not to mention the girls were only teenagers and, reasonably, had no understanding of the complicated politics of show business. Were they expected to, as high schoolers, see Berry's long-term plan for crossover appeal? The girls wanted to SING. Eventually, Mary and Flo were relegated to "ooh's" and "ahh's," and as girls who worked so hard and for so long on their craft, that's pretty insulting.

I worded my supposition poorly. My point is: so the fuck what? From the projects to superstars - unbelievable success. I'm saying IF Berry had told them, at 16, exactly what their role in the biggest group ever would be "ooo's and ahhh's" - would they take it or walk? I bet they'd take it.

In regards to "leaving" when Diana was chosen in 1963, you cannot possibly believe it was that simple. First, they were under contract. Legally that was not possible. Second, even though Berry told them they wanted Diana on leads, the girls were still quite highly utilized - if not so much on leads, on harmony. Just because you don't like something right off the bat, you don't just leave. The girls worked too hard to do that. That's not the sneaky part. The sneaky part was gradually reducing Mary and Flo's vocal parts, their levels on recordings, and, finally, their involvement altogether on records. Berry straight up told Mary that she couldn't sing, and Flo was once [[at least) told to stand several feet away from the mic. It wasn't the single time of being told that Diana was going to be lead that destroyed the group unity. It was repeated occurrences of conflicts of interest that was rightfully perceived as unfair by not only Mary and Flo, but other acts in Motown, as well.

Berry wasn't sneaking. He did it all right out front. He was Berry Gordy - the chairman. He didn't have to sneak. He didn't care one whit about anything but making money. That includes group unity. That includes his treatment of Raynoma, firing Flo, working Ross down to 95#, and giving The Supremes 5 cents on the dollar of what they earned [[my estimate) Berry Gordy didn't GAF what people thought. He just wanted money and he was totally unapologetic about it. Get in his way, you're out. period. He didn't have to sneak or be devious. He did it all right out in the open. It may not have been what Mary or Flo liked, but he didn't care. He probably assumed being in the #1 group would be enough. He didn't care that Ross was unhappy or stressed out either. Mary made it sound like it was some secret plot that Berry & Diana were crafting. It was no secret. Everyone having to do with The Supremes supported the program because the paid the bills.

Re: Diana trampling others. You can not deny that, at least in the early days, Diana behaved quite wildly, and frankly, poorly, to many in the Motown caravan. It's all documented. Threatening to run over Mary Wells, jumping on others for a can of hairspray, and outright stealing stage patter of other acts. Admittedly, the former two examples lack sustainable credibility, but her selfish behavior back in those days is well documented by many. That's not to say that Diana did not mature, but she burned a lot of bridges in those early days. I love Diana and think she is a great entertainer, but it cannot be argued that she instigated trouble on a number of occasions. Part of that, of course, comes from a lack of maturity, but regardless...

I'm sure Miss Ross was a handful - I'm sure she's still a handful. I'm sure she didn't try to run anyone over. It's a good stoty, tho. I'm sure she was just being a bratty teenager and pretended to. If a girl can catch an earring on national telervision while performing a song and not even look at the earring, she wouldn't have any trouble running down a whole passel of Marvelettes if she wanted to. Miss Ross is nimble. I don't know how awful she was or wasn't. I know how hard she worked and what the results were: history.

Regarding Mary and Flo being non-essential. Fans knew each Supreme by name. Fans definitely had their favorites, and not all of them like Diana. When Berry considered not having Florence appear at the Copa in 1966, Jules Podell INSISTED that each original Supreme appear. When Flo was ousted, fans demanded that she be reinstalled - continuing all the way through Diana's leaving. The sound of the records changed drastically once Flo left or once the Andantes replaced the girls. It's not a coincidence that records didn't sell as well once that unique sound was tampered with. The Supremes as DMF had a unique, inimitable sound. Once the Andantes replaced them, that was destroyed. As good as the Andantes were, they can be heard on countless records by other artists, thereby negating that 'unique' factor. Not to mention that Mary, Flo, and Diana each had their very own, defined personalities. Eventually, especially once Cindy came in, their was no more individual personalities. Quite literally, the name change from "The Supremes" as a solid unit to "Diana Ross & the Supremes" set Diana as the sole personality of the group with Cindy and Mary as merely background singers. They were still successful live, but droves of fans turned away once that group solidarity was destroyed.

No argument that DMF were special and magic together. I saw it first hand. Yes, fans split when Flo left, many more bailed when Ross left. So what? DMC still made a mint, drew huge crowds and sold records - just not as much. JMC sold even less. While I agree that The Andantes sound was different than DMF, the main reason records sold less, IMO, is the loss of HDH. EVERYONE suffered the same loss of revenue when HDH left - including Martha & The Tops - they didn't have Andante issues. I wanted Flo back just as much as anyone and the demands were ignored. So what? CB was a smash, Love Child was, Someday was....... You are absolutely correct, but, had Sandra Tilley and Ophelia Pulse joined in 1963 when Mary & Flo bolted cos of oooo's & ahhhh's, Ross' great reviews from last weekend would have been the same. Sandra would have had her fans, Ophelia, her fans and the same shit would have happened. Except maybe one member wouldn't write a book full of one-sided memories, lies and false innuendo to augment a limp solo career.

[supremester]

Yes, the truth is that Diana never wanted people at The Copa. She was under enough strainas it was with Berry telling her that the entire company was riding on her and her alone. Mary witnessed Berry's treatment of Diana and chose not to write it because it wouldn't play into her Ross: the Villainess story. Randy wrote about it in CHMR. Harvey, Gil & Cholly told me horror stories about it. Only Mary didn't talk about it. Or that She wound up doing People with Flo.
^ Really? I was left under the impression that after Diana agreed to do the song [[at Florence's request), only Diana was allowed to sing it? Then again, that may have been trying to build more to the story than it was. The Supremes, like many of the Motown legends, led a complex story that impacted three people in three different ways.

[marv2]

And the single thing that had the most to do with the disharmony was taking Flos People solo away from her. And for all of that stuff per Berry's genius that was a hugely stupid thing to do per group cohesion...much less helping to break Flos spirit.

I could never understand why Diana Ross felt it necessary to take Flo's one and only solo and sing it herself. I mean she had all the other leads. Wasn't that enough?

[midnightman]

When the Supremes signed with Motown in January 1961 [[months before the Marvelettes joined), Berry Gordy hadn't yet made the announcement that Diana would be the lead vocalist. That happened in late 1963 and that was probably after "When the Love Light Starts Shining Through His Eyes" became their first hit. I think, playing devil's advocate here, Berry wanted his three Motown female groups to have a distinct sound. With the Marvelettes, you had two lead vocalists who were different in style [[Gladys was the harder-edged R&B vocalist and Wanda was a mixture of pop, doo-wop and soul - and later jazz, as Wanda said, she could sing anything, I think her vocals were more impressive than Florence's). With Martha and the Vandellas, you had a brash-sounding young woman leading like an old time gospel song and the other Vandellas were her choir. The Supremes were more pristine and glamorous and all of their vocals were smoother and radio friendly.

In that regard, BG accomplished that, even if he decided the Supremes [[and more precisely Diana) was his meal ticket to stardom. He worked all three of them to death and splintered them in many ways. The Supremes had a complex history, it's too simple to say "this broke because of x, y and z" but all three of them struggled with it. Berry played all three of them like chumps and didn't care as long as he got his money [[Diana had to start investing in real estate and produce her own videos and TV specials to get loot after she left Motown and signed that $20 million contract after learning she only had $300,000 in her own name whereas Mary toured constantly and Florence just kept getting ripped off by people who were supposed to be in her corner after she left).

[midnightman]

Yes, the truth is that Diana never wanted people at The Copa. She was under enough strainas it was with Berry telling her that the entire company was riding on her and her alone. Mary witnessed Berry's treatment of Diana and chose not to write it because it wouldn't play into her Ross: the Villainess story. Randy wrote about it in CHMR. Harvey, Gil & Cholly told me horror stories about it. Only Mary didn't talk about it. Or that She wound up doing People with Flo.

If I'm not mistaken, I saw a clip of them singing People at the Orient, and I think Mary did add her own lead to People... all three of them were singing it at that point. People was never fully Florence's performance though she sung most of it [[very beautifully, might I add... shame the studio version is no longer on YouTube, I dug that over the live versions). To be fair, though, when you compare them singing standards to Patti LaBelle and the Bluebelles, they [[the Supremes) fall flat, just by comparison. I can't imagine them doing Danny Boy for instance but People seemed to be the type of song the Supremes could slay.

[supremester]

I'm not nuts about People - after the huge build up it got in mary's book, I wasn't expecting it to be a duet augmented by a lot of 3 part harmony. Yes, Mary was doing it in The Orient and I have buds who saw her doing it at various times and had no idea why she was calling it Flo's song in her book. My fave DR&TS People is Ross' on GIT.

I admire Patti's vocal ability - clearly shes got an amazing gift - but I personally don't enjoy her histrionics as much as most people do. Like I much prefer Martha's version of Patti's You'll Never Walk Alone. It's odd because I love Gladys, Martha and queen ree, but patti just doesn't hit me correctly.

[luke]

Sadly it wasn't enough. As Mary said in 2000..Diana has to have everything.

[supremester]

What wasn't enough?

[vgalindo]

Sadly for who Mary? Diana had the talent to have everything and Mary was resentful because she didn't have the talent to have everything!!

[supremester]

She didn't - that's just another of Mary's lies.
I could never understand why Diana Ross felt it necessary to take Flo's one and only solo and sing it herself. I mean she had all the other leads. Wasn't that enough?

[marv2]

Actually, Gladys Horton was the target of that vehicular maneuver.

You're referring to that time in Philadelphia when Diana Ross tried to run over Gladys Horton and the blind kid?

[marv2]

Sadly it wasn't enough. As Mary said in 2000..Diana has to have everything.

That sounds like something really deep rooted; something far more serious than a mere character flaw.

[captainjames]

As far as what TT wrote none of that was proven per Gladys,the blind kid, Diana's mother or Diana herself. Maybe TT was in the trunk.

[midnightman]

Lol when was Tony born? No one has seemed to answer that question. He always changes his story. He said he was 12 when he met Florence apparently. I remember going "what superstar [[which Florence was) would trust a 12-year-old kid with private information like that, true or not?"

[marv2]

As far as what TT wrote none of that was proven per Gladys,the blind kid, Diana's mother or Diana herself. Maybe TT was in the trunk.

Mary wrote about it also and no one sued her over it. How could Diana Ross be so thoughtless and cruel? A blind kid?

[luke]

It's been in a least one other books as I recall. Lala Brooks and others have also spoken about the tantrums. I remember one incident written about and saying Mrs Ross was just mortified by Dianas behavior.

[RossHolloway]

I thought it was during the recording of their album Supreme's sing Country, Western & Pop that it was announced that Diana Ross would sing all leads, even though the song Sunset is clearly a duet with Diana and Mary. All that aside, you cannot argue with success or the fact that people are still arguing the Supreme's group dynamics over 47 years after Florence left the group or 45 years after Diana left to launch her solo career. What we will NEVER fully know are all the details that went on in the group that have been lost to time or just stayed between the group members. And lastly, can we just stop pretending that Diana Ross alone had a diva behavior? It's pretty safe to say that if you dug around long enough you could find individuals who could tell less than flattering stories about ALL Motown's major artists and not just Diana Ross. Janis Gaye's new book on Marvin is an eye opener. I'm sure all the former Vandellas could tell unflattering storys about Martha Reeves, or the Marvalettes about their lead singers. Or the remaining Temps could share unflattering stories about their group members. Heck, I've read that at the end members of the Four Tops weren't even speaking to each other. I don't understand why so called fans of these artists and Motown feel the need to debase any of the singers or groups, seriously, what's the point?

[blackguy69]

I thought it was during the recording of their album Supreme's sing Country, Western & Pop that it was announced that Diana Ross would sing all leads, even though the song Sunset is clearly a duet with Diana and Mary. All that aside, you cannot argue with success or the fact that people are still arguing the Supreme's group dynamics over 47 years after Florence left the group or 45 years after Diana left to launch her solo career. What we will NEVER fully know are all the details that went on in the group that have been lost to time or just stayed between the group members. And lastly, can we just stop pretending that Diana Ross alone had a diva behavior? It's pretty safe to say that if you dug around long enough you could find individuals who could tell less than flattering stories about ALL Motown's major artists and not just Diana Ross. Janis Gaye's new book on Marvin is an eye opener. I'm sure all the former Vandellas could tell unflattering storys about Martha Reeves, or the Marvalettes about their lead singers. Or the remaining Temps could share unflattering stories about their group members. Heck, I've read that at the end members of the Four Tops weren't even speaking to each other. I don't understand why so called fans of these artists and Motown feel the need to debase any of the singers or groups, seriously, what's the point?
I don't understand it either. What is the point of arguing over events that happened decades ago. None of us were there, so is it far to judge someone over what someone else told them whether it be true or not

[RossHolloway]

I don't understand it either. What is the point of arguing over events that happened decades ago. None of us were there, so is it far to judge someone over what someone else told them whether it be true or not

I just think that some people have absolutely NOTHING going on in their personal lives or their lives are so empty that they keep on rehashing meaningless details of things that happened over 50 years ago and can't seem to move on. It's so sad really, I feel sorry for them.

[marv2]

It's been in a least one other books as I recall. Lala Brooks and others have also spoken about the tantrums. I remember one incident written about and saying Mrs Ross was just mortified by Dianas behavior.

Add Dee Dee Sharp and Shirley Alston of the Shirelles to that list.

[midnightman]

I thought it was during the recording of their album Supreme's sing Country, Western & Pop that it was announced that Diana Ross would sing all leads, even though the song Sunset is clearly a duet with Diana and Mary. All that aside, you cannot argue with success or the fact that people are still arguing the Supreme's group dynamics over 47 years after Florence left the group or 45 years after Diana left to launch her solo career. What we will NEVER fully know are all the details that went on in the group that have been lost to time or just stayed between the group members. And lastly, can we just stop pretending that Diana Ross alone had a diva behavior? It's pretty safe to say that if you dug around long enough you could find individuals who could tell less than flattering stories about ALL Motown's major artists and not just Diana Ross. Janis Gaye's new book on Marvin is an eye opener. I'm sure all the former Vandellas could tell unflattering storys about Martha Reeves, or the Marvalettes about their lead singers. Or the remaining Temps could share unflattering stories about their group members. Heck, I've read that at the end members of the Four Tops weren't even speaking to each other. I don't understand why so called fans of these artists and Motown feel the need to debase any of the singers or groups, seriously, what's the point?

Which is why I don't trip anymore when people bring all this stuff about Diana because a lot of the Motown acts had different lives off camera. It was like who wasn't feuding at the time, who wasn't doing someone else dirty, etc.

I think why you never see anyone bringing up dirt here on Marvin or the Four Tops or Stevie or whatever is because they're good with what they brought to the table as professionals. They can separate the person from the music. I do the same with the Supremes.

[Roberta75]

I just think that some people have absolutely NOTHING going on in their personal lives or their lives are so empty that they keep on rehashing meaningless details of things that happened over 50 years ago and can't seem to move on. It's so sad really, I feel sorry for them.

Preach RossHolloway Preach. There are three in this here forum that are obsess with Diane Ross and they obsession isnt real healthy imo. Just look over these past 3 pages and see who posted the most and youll see disturbed individuals. Dianes #1 hater posted 30 times in this here thread. A darn shame smh.

Roberta

[RobertZ]

I just think that some people have absolutely NOTHING going on in their personal lives or their lives are so empty that they keep on rehashing meaningless details of things that happened over 50 years ago and can't seem to move on. It's so sad really, I feel sorry for them.
Yes Indeed! Apparently someone's mother never taught "If you can't say something nice ..."

[RobertZ]

I have to add that I think much of the content posted on this site is disgraceful and demeaning for grown men to be writing [[never comes from a woman, does it?) as well as insulting to Mr. Terrana. He has repeatedly asked ... certain of us ... to withhold the slander. I'm sure there are other sites where one can spill their misogynisitic perseverating to their hearts' content. Why not respect the wishes of the moderator of this forum and take it there?

[Roberta75]

I have to add that I think much of the content posted on this site is disgraceful and demeaning for grown men to be writing [[never comes from a woman, does it?) as well as insulting to Mr. Terrana. He has repeatedly asked ... certain of us ... to withhold the slander. I'm sure there are other sites where one can spill their misogynisitic perseverating to their hearts' content. Why not respect the wishes of the moderator of this forum and take it there?

Its beyond disgusting RobertZ but the main culprit gets away with it time and time and time again smh.

Roberta

[marybrewster]

Here's an interesting take on it; watch at 11:00.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjhmTbE4eKc

[ralpht]

You guys might not like what I'm about to say, but I have to agree with Mr. Holloway.Sometimes, regarding certain inane subjects regarding the Supremes, it just gets tiresome. And I know that trouble is lurking. The entire subject is no longer moot and I wish threads didn't keep cropping up like this. I need to remind everyone that it was I that picked up Jean Terrell from her hotel to bring her to the Donovan Building when she was selected to replace Diana Ross. After that it became a dead issue in my opinion, all do respect to all the fine singers that would come along to be Supremes. But it was no longer the Supremes, but just a very good singing group. And yes, they all qualify as back-up singers. They are just that good. Now leave all the criticizing be.

[Glenpwood]

You guys might not like what I'm about to say, but I have to agree with Mr. Holloway.Sometimes, regarding certain inane subjects regarding the Supremes, it just gets tiresome. And I know that trouble is lurking. The entire subject is no longer moot and I wish threads didn't keep cropping up like this. I need to remind everyone that it was I that picked up Jean Terrell from her hotel to bring her to the Donovan Building when she was selected to replace Diana Ross. After that it became a dead issue in my opinion, all do respect to all the fine singers that would come along to be Supremes. But it was no longer the Supremes, but just a very good singing group. And yes, they all qualify as back-up singers. They are just that good. Now leave all the criticizing be.

Thank you Ralph!

It's demoralizing to the forum to watch the same posters drive around their respective blocks expecting to see new houses built there. I get that most fans take a stance in the Supremes wars to one side or another thanks to a couple of books written for shock value/maximum sales rather than historical perspective. Add in certain bits of hearsay quoted [[sometimes directly) to them by other artists and the myth somehow hardens to fact that people aren't willing to change their minds on. I'd love to contribute more to the Supremes threads but even the most benign comment seems to get under the wrong persons skin or it gets used like I am in one sides camp and not the other at times which proves frustrating. I know I find myself discouraged at times from even starting threads on other artists since it seems the girls still rule the multiple threads when I sign on. At the end of the day, even if The Supremes were somehow proven to be the cattiest bunch of backstabbing women to ever walk the earth, to appreciate that over the music and the many Motowners behind the scenes who helped it reach the masses is beyond sad. The music is supposed to be what we come here to celebrate in this forum not the catfights and who was wronged when. Fifty years has passed for a majority of it. If the original parties have come to peace with it, I don't see why the fans can't....

Again, my thanks for providing a voice of reason and a forum for us that when the false eyelashes and wigs aren't flying over which Supreme did what to whom, is very enjoyable and informative.;)

Respectfully,
Glen

[Roberta75]

its real real fascinating how a handful of fans ruin every Supremes thread in this here forum by taking what "allegedly' happen 50 or 40 or 30 years ago so personally. i mean its all bassed on favoritism and hearsay and means nothing in the grand scheme of this precious gift of life. Im real glad and gratful that Ralph stepped in to ask this to stop. it spoils an otherwise real enjoyable forum.

Roberta

[RobertZ]

its real real fascinating how a handful of fans ruin every Supremes thread in this here forum by taking what "allegedly' happen 50 or 40 or 30 years ago so personally. i mean its all bassed on favoritism and hearsay and means nothing in the grand scheme of this precious gift of life. Im real glad and gratful that Ralph stepped in to ask this to stop. it spoils an otherwise real enjoyable forum.

Roberta
And I third that motion. Even the Ike Turner Unsung thread was polluted by the same individual, again bringing up his reason for living.

[Roberta75]

And I third that motion. Even the Ike Turner Unsung thread was polluted by the same individual, again bringing up his reason for living.

He brought up Diane Ross in the Ike Turner thread? smh just smh.

Roberta

[RobertZ]

He brought up Diane Ross in the Ike Turner thread? smh just smh.

Roberta
That, ma'am, he did!

[milven]

He brought up Diane Ross in the Ike Turner thread? smh just smh.

Roberta

I checked the Ike Turner thread and the only reference to Diana was made by Marv. Naturally, it was negative and off the topic. His point was to say that just as Ike was regarded to many as an asshole, so was Diana.

As for this thread, I started it because there was a nice article acknowledging and complimented the Supremes as a group giving recording examples of them sharing lead and switching leads and singing in harmony. I liked the article and agreed. I wish the group performed more as a group and less as a lead with a background singer. But to make that point, I did not have to bash any individual Supreme. I know better as I can see what happens when Marv starts bashing. Everyone starts bashing back and Ralph deletes the thread. And it makes no sense to complain. The last time someone complained, Ralph said that Marv has a right to promote his favorite artist. He does have that right. But does he have to bash another member of the group to do it? That is where the trouble begins. Sadly most of us see it. Other don’t .
FROM THE IKE TURNER THREAD

I think he [[Ike Turner) WAS an asshole. Many people who he worked with and around would testify to that. ….


I know what you mean. It is the exact same case as with Diana Ross!
Back to the topic of this thread. Before the Supremes, I was a fan of the McGuire Sisters. I loved their harmony and how Phyllis sang lead midway in most of the songs and then reverted back to harmony. I would have liked to have heard that more with the Supremes and agree with the article. But I still am an avid Supreme fan, liked all the Supremes, all their songs and saw and enjoyed each configuration.

[RobertZ]

I checked the Ike Turner thread and the only reference to Diana was made by Marv. Naturally, it was negative and off the topic. His point was to say that just as Ike was regarded to many as an asshole, so was Diana.

As for this thread, I started it because there was a nice article acknowledging and complimented the Supremes as a group giving recording examples of them sharing lead and switching leads and singing in harmony. I liked the article and agreed. I wish the group performed more as a group and less as a lead with a background singer. But to make that point, I did not have to bash any individual Supreme. I know better as I can see what happens when Marv starts bashing. Everyone starts bashing back and Ralph deletes the thread. And it makes no sense to complain. The last time someone complained, Ralph said that Marv has a right to promote his favorite artist. He does have that right. But does he have to bash another member of the group to do it? That is where the trouble begins. Sadly most of us see it. Other don’t .
FROM THE IKE TURNER THREAD



Back to the topic of this thread. Before the Supremes, I was a fan of the McGuire Sisters. I loved their harmony and how Phyllis sang lead midway in most of the songs and then reverted back to harmony. I would have liked to have heard that more with the Supremes and agree with the article. But I still am an avid Supreme fan, liked all the Supremes, all their songs and saw and enjoyed each configuration.

It is indeed a good article and I thank you for posting it. I have a similar feeling about the group Labelle - I always wished their LPs featured more "swapped leads", such as "Can I Speak ..." because each of the 3 ladies have such distinct voices as well as harmonizing like the bejeezuz. But what's past is past, I guess. BTW, in the future I will just ignore that poster entirely. I think it best.

[Bluebrock]

Thank heavens this thread is calming down. I have deliberately avoided it due the venom that has been spitted out. Why do we have to be so negative? This forum is for Motown lovers and if we cannot discuss topics in a mature and respectable way then there is little point in continuing. Let us spread love not hate. We are all entitled to our opinions but some people on here are beyond unpleasant with their narrow minded and downright repulsive comments. Thank goodness the vast majority of us are above that. I love this forum and most of the people on it. There are some very special and like minded people on here. Spread the love!!! Thank you.

[supremester]

I never saw The 70's groupings - they never came near Portland, except once played a homecoming dance in Eugene in 1970, but I was 14 and not allowed to travel alone. What grouping was your fave? If you could see one again, which would it be?

I've seen Scherrie & Lynda live and they are great. Would ove to have seen Jean & Susaye as well.


It is indeed a good article and I thank you for posting it. I have a similar feeling about the group Labelle - I always wished their LPs featured more "swapped leads", such as "Can I Speak ..." because each of the 3 ladies have such distinct voices as well as harmonizing like the bejeezuz. But what's past is past, I guess. BTW, in the future I will just ignore that poster entirely. I think it best.

[supremester]

Well shake it on baby, now: I just learned he's doing it on Black-ish sites and tracee Ellis Ross news comments


.........
He brought up Diane Ross in the Ike Turner thread? smh just smh.

Roberta

[RobertZ]

I never saw The 70's groupings - they never came near Portland, except once played a homecoming dance in Eugene in 1970, but I was 14 and not allowed to travel alone. What grouping was your fave? If you could see one again, which would it be?

I've seen Scherrie & Lynda live and they are great. Would ove to have seen Jean & Susaye as well.
I only saw live JMC [[at the Americana Hotel in NYC) and they were wonderful - I loved Jean and it was she that kept my interest in the group after Diana left. DMC would have been great to see; DMF was just a tad before my time. After Jean and Cindy were gone, to me they were no longer [[HERE WE GO!) "The Supremes"; talented ladies singing [[or syncing) good new songs on TV, but for me not The Supremes I knew and loved. So the show you missed was JMC, correct?

[floyjoy678]

I know a lot of people think that Florence was an overrated singer but Mary, Diana, Marvin, Martha, and so many more have all talked about what a great voice Florence had.

After Florence left there was just something missing. Then Diana left and it was completely gone. I loved the Jean, Mary, Cindy line-up but I just can't get into them except for the first album and their main hits. Like a few others said, I thought the later Supremes were great and talented ladies but Mary should have just quit when Jean did.

There was no line-up that could ever match the magic of Diana Ross, Mary Wilson and Florence Ballard.

[Roberta75]

Well shake it on baby, now: I just learned he's doing it on Black-ish sites and tracee Ellis Ross news comments


.........

Omg if what your saying is true hes more disturbed than I thought and need help. Making hateful comments on Dianes kids sites is real real low even for him.. Smh just smh.

Roberta

[RobertZ]

Omg if what your saying is true hes more disturbed than I thought and need help. Making hateful comments on Dianes kids sites is real real low even for him.. Smh just smh.

Roberta
Hey Ms. Roberta - yes, it's "borderline" stalking if this is the case, and sad and scary. You be well, ma'am!

[Roberta75]

Hey Ms. Roberta - yes, it's "borderline" stalking if this is the case, and sad and scary. You be well, ma'am!

Thank you dear RobertZ and God bless you dear.

yours, with every good wish.

Roberta

[ralpht]

Sorry I've been away for a while. big storm yesterday knocked power out. Just got it restored. Do I need to delete this thread or are we behaving?

[Roberta75]

Sorry I've been away for a while. big storm yesterday knocked power out. Just got it restored. Do I need to delete this thread or are we behaving?

I think its real civil now dear Ralph. It's the Ike Turner thread that needs deleting. A usual culprit has turned it into another trash Diane Ross thread.

hope you are well.

Fondly,

Roberta

[ralpht]

Usual culprit, Roberta? Please....

[ralpht]

Let me explain something to all of you. I have had no sleep for twenty four hours dealing with the power outage. I'm exhausted and need some sleep. The last thing I need is some petty bullshit. So please, everybody, get it together.

[Roberta75]

Usual culprit, Roberta? Please....

Im speaking the Gods honest truth Ralph and its obviously not what you want to hear so thats all Im going to say.

fondly,

Roberta

[ralpht]

No Roberta. I have dealt with the Marv "vendetta" way too long. I suggest you back off.

[ralpht]

Now please read my previous email. I'm shot. So leave it all be or I'll delete everything

[midnightman]

Sorry I've been away for a while. big storm yesterday knocked power out. Just got it restored. Do I need to delete this thread or are we behaving?

Nah, Ralph. It's all good.

[REDHOT]

Lol like it or not,it was all politics at Motown,no one knew The Supremes were going to be big,so when they hit,they hit big,sure Berry Gordy would tell them all b.s just to keep them in they're place,trust me he b.s Diana too,but no one at Motown liked Berry Gordy investin' they're money into Diana Ross,not Glady,not The Temptation,not Smokey,not Stevie,no one liked it,Diana leaving The Supremes was the best,it's funny tho,Motown was not ready for it,The Supremes Mary Cindy and Jean came out topping they're star Diana Ross,with Up The Ladder To The Roof,without the help of Motown pushing it,Diana Ross's Reach Out And Touch,didn't do so well,if Diana had hit,like The Supremes did,she would have had so much promotion,they did nothing for The Supremes,as far as promotion,all politics at Motown,when Thelma Houston got the Grammy at Motown,and Diana didn't,Motown did nothing for Thelma,had Diana won a Grammy for Motown,there would have been promotions all over the world,trust me,Mary and Florence was just as good as Diana,it was Berry Gordy's company,he was the boss,so if he wanted Diana to be the star,that was it,no one was gonna stand in his way,that why i have so much Respect for Mary Wilson,in the end she's has had, Success on her own,without the help of anyone,i'v seen Berry Gordy at her shows,he seems proud of her,hey supremester, you got too much time on your hands,too much postin lol smh

[Roberta75]

No Roberta. I have dealt with the Marv "vendetta" way too long. I suggest you back off.

I respectfully differ with you Ralph but I will adheres to your suggestion and say no more.

have a nice rest dear.

Fondly,

Roberta

[supremester]

Yes, I missed JMC. I did see DMF [[too fab for words) DMC [[Rossers heaven!) Never did I see Flo, Cindy or Mary standing behind Miss Ross - I think that might have been just for TV. Anyone see it live? DMC did basically everything from TCB except Symphony[[I&^%U&^%UC$FW$). Mary had two solos but I didn't recognize the second song and still dont know what it was. I missed Flo.



Gil told me about the JML break up and how bad he felt about it because they were so easy to work with and so talented. He actually tried to get them to stay and even Motown tried. What year did you see them? Do you recall the songs?
I only saw live JMC [[at the Americana Hotel in NYC) and they were wonderful - I loved Jean and it was she that kept my interest in the group after Diana left. DMC would have been great to see; DMF was just a tad before my time. After Jean and Cindy were gone, to me they were no longer [[HERE WE GO!) "The Supremes"; talented ladies singing [[or syncing) good new songs on TV, but for me not The Supremes I knew and loved. So the show you missed was JMC, correct?

[stephanie]

My mother saw DMF and she said they were fantastic live.

[marv2]

Yes, I missed JMC. I did see DMF [[too fab for words) DMC [[Rossers heaven!) Never did I see Flo, Cindy or Mary standing behind Miss Ross - I think that might have been just for TV. Anyone see it live? DMC did basically everything from TCB except Symphony[[I&^%U&^%UC$FW$). Mary had two solos but I didn't recognize the second song and still dont know what it was. I missed Flo.



Gil told me about the JML break up and how bad he felt about it because they were so easy to work with and so talented. He actually tried to get them to stay and even Motown tried. What year did you see them? Do you recall the songs?

You know that is interesting...that Gil told you that, because they were working mainly with Teddy Harris of Detroit as their musical conductor at that time! I'm sure you've heard of him.

[REDHOT]

You're right Marv,when Jean and Lynda left,Gil Askey was with Diana,not The Supremes,he did work with The Supremes Mary Cindy and Jean in early 1970 tho,

[detmotownguy]

Lol like it or not,it was all politics at Motown,no one knew The Supremes were going to be big,so when they hit,they hit big,sure Berry Gordy would tell them all b.s just to keep them in they're place,trust me he b.s Diana too,but no one at Motown liked Berry Gordy investin' they're money into Diana Ross,not Glady,not The Temptation,not Smokey,not Stevie,no one liked it,Diana leaving The Supremes was the best,it's funny tho,Motown was not ready for it,The Supremes Mary Cindy and Jean came out topping they're star Diana Ross,with Up The Ladder To The Roof,without the help of Motown pushing it,Diana Ross's Reach Out And Touch,didn't do so well,if Diana had hit,like The Supremes did,she would have had so much promotion,they did nothing for The Supremes,as far as promotion,all politics at Motown,when Thelma Houston got the Grammy at Motown,and Diana didn't,Motown did nothing for Thelma,had Diana won a Grammy for Motown,there would have been promotions all over the world,trust me,Mary and Florence was just as good as Diana,it was Berry Gordy's company,he was the boss,so if he wanted Diana to be the star,that was it,no one was gonna stand in his way,that why i have so much Respect for Mary Wilson,in the end she's has had, Success on her own,without the help of anyone,i'v seen Berry Gordy at her shows,he seems proud of her,hey supremester, you got too much time on your hands,too much postin lol smh

Hi Redhot- great posting. It is nice that Berry has been at some of Mary's shows. I didn't know that. Were these regular performances or award type shows? It seems like they get along pretty good these days. Maybe at some point r they had a good sit down discussion and worked a few things out.

[REDHOT]

Detmotownguy,I saw Berry Gordy Claudette Robinson Janie Bradford and Latoya Jackson at Mary Wilson's show,early this year,at Herb Alpert's grill Jazz Club,that's not the first time,i'v seen Berry at a Mary Wilson show,i can tell Berry Gordy has a lot of love,and Respect for Mary,because Mary has done very good,for herself,and she did it,with out the help of Motown,or anyone,you got to Respect that,again i can tell hes proud of her,Love her

[detmotownguy]

Detmotownguy,I saw Berry Gordy Claudette Robinson Janie Bradford and Latoya Jackson at Mary Wilson's show,early this year,at Herb Alpert's grill Jazz Club,that's not the first time,i'v seen Berry at a Mary Wilson show,i can tell Berry Gordy has a lot of love,and Respect for Mary,because Mary has done very good,for herself,and she did it,with out the help of Motown,or anyone,you got to Respect that,again i can tell hes proud of her,Love her

Thanks for the reply! Mary sure has a lot of friends and is a popular lady.

[marv2]

Detmotownguy,I saw Berry Gordy Claudette Robinson Janie Bradford and Latoya Jackson at Mary Wilson's show,early this year,at Herb Alpert's grill Jazz Club,that's not the first time,i'v seen Berry at a Mary Wilson show,i can tell Berry Gordy has a lot of love,and Respect for Mary,because Mary has done very good,for herself,and she did it,with out the help of Motown,or anyone,you got to Respect that,again i can tell hes proud of her,Love her

Mary Wilson is important to a lot of people. Back when Mary had her health scare around 2006, not only did Berry call a couple of times a day, but Smokey even had his personal physician attend to Mary after she was out the hospital and under the care of her own physician!

[supremester]

Teddy Harris? TEDDY Harris????????? Hmmmmmmm......... Teddy HARRIS.................um, I ......gosh......oh, yeah I think ..... Yeah! He conducted for The Rossless Supremes when Gil was elsewhere and wrote some AWFUL hits medleys that are unlistenable and contributed to the group's demise.

Things you might not know about Gil:
1) He loved working with his groups [[DR&TS, Martha, Tempts, Tops, his faves) because he really respected the talents and abilities of the acts. DR&TS were his babies and after the split, he worked both acts equally. He wrote vocal arrangements for new hits and special material like Millie/Rose/Mame and If They Could See Me Now for JMC. He also composed transition music for the acts, and, with Berry Gordy, put their acts together. Not once in our convos did he ever refer to BG as anything but Mr Gordy and they worked together intensely for a lot of years. He was not afraid to disagree with BG and that earned a lot of gold stars from BG who hated ass kissers being paid for advice. He fought for Mary's solos, against Flo's ouster and against Put on A Happy Face as an opener.
Gil's job was also to go out with each act and train the MD, conduct, make sure everyone was doing as instructed and see how the show was working and report back to Berry. He told me several interesting stories about changes in shows that BG did not approve of. I'm sure your bff Mary Wilson [[Of The Supremes) would be happy to tell you how long Gil was involved with The Rossless Supremes and that Motown billed the acts quite high for his services - hence the use of less expensive Teddy Harris.


QUOTE=marv2;286463]You that is interesting...that Gil told you that, because they were working mainly with Teddy Harris of Detroit as their musical conductor at that time! I'm sure you've heard of him.[/QUOTE]

[SupremeBoy]

Nice article. It's sad that their 50th Anniversary went virtually unnoticed and I agree with some of the reasons given here. However, I have no desire to join the acrimony that is consistently on display in this forum. A lot of you sound like broken records, continually arguing/debating the same things over and over and over and over again. It's actually very, very sad and disheartening because I love the ladies and I love the music but some of you just make it so damned toxic to even want to jump in and participate.

[REDHOT]

I agree Supremeboy

[jobeterob]

Is a refrain like the one in "One Fine Day" that goes all song long and says "shooby dooby dooby do wop bop" shooby dooby dooby do wop bop" shooby dooby dooby do wop bop..................ALL NIGHT LONG?

[Cadeho]

What a journey... edited because I came to the party too late and I read the rest of thread... what I said was not related to the Supremes brawl, but I thought I was replying to one of the first posts about the name change but never mind...