Florence royalties question

[luke]

As Flo didn't have legal representation when she signed her release from Motown, her original contract signed by her mother, conflict of interest in being employed by Motown and represented by Motown.... ..couldn't some or all of these reasons justify her family seeking compensation ? Martha Reeves and others successfully sued for royalties signed away and some of these points were in Mary's lawsuit against Motown. Just wondering. And the Supremes getting only $100,000 each in 1970 just boggles the mind...yes inflation would make it about $600,000 today, but still...

[jobeterob]

Limitations are light years passed; she also had representation about much of this; bad representation ~ remember he stole her settlement and go disbarred?

[supremester]

You are quite misinformed, Ma um I mean, Luke.
No one who signed away royalties got them back again. Martha never signed nuthin' away.
No one denied flo legal representation - she just wasn't smart enough to have it. That's all on her.
Flo had a lawyer deal with her departure and, as her #1 fan i feel I can say this: the big, stooopid idiot married a stupider idiot and they lapped up this shyster's suggestions because they were stupidest!!!!
Everybody tries to get the best buy they can in everything. So do lawyers. If this dude saw two simpletons with a third of a million dollars, he's gonna go after it, and did. Flo just wanted OUT - there was no plan or reasoning with her. I so wish it wasn't that way.
Where Motown screwed them over was with chargebacks, shady royalty payments and live performance fee ripoffs.
Ross prolly made more her first year at RCA -than in all her solo years at Motown - not including her 23 mil signing bonus. It took her 20 years and Gene Simmons to open her eyes.
Mary was stupid and greedy also - trying to get The Supremes' name. Why just her? Had she gone to Miss Ross between insults and indignation's and not when she was being named Turki's God Mother, going to her solo debut or loaning her broke ass money, and said, " let's do this as a team for your kids, mine and Flo's' Miss Ross mighta listened and made it happen. Instead, Mary hires a lawyer to get her a solo deal [[at a company that wouldn't even let her sing a full lead on a show, mind you) in exchange for the name fight and winds up with nada but a legal bill. The atty must have known she'd be getting screwed but he wanted a fee and did what was asked. Motown got Mary off their back and if her album took off, they'd make money and do another. If not, they'd be out nothing and be done with her.
you can't blame atty's for clients who don't think things out.

As Flo didn't have legal representation when she signed her release from Motown, her original contract signed by her mother, conflict of interest in being employed by Motown and represented by Motown.... ..couldn't some or all of these reasons justify her family seeking compensation ? Martha Reeves and others successfully sued for royalties signed away and some of these points were in Mary's lawsuit against Motown. Just wondering. And the Supremes getting only $100,000 each in 1970 just boggles the mind...yes inflation would make it about $600,000 today, but still...

[RobertZ]

You are quite misinformed, Ma um I mean, Luke.
No one who signed away royalties got them back again. Martha never signed nuthin' away.
No one denied flo legal representation - she just wasn't smart enough to have it. That's all on her.
Flo had a lawyer deal with her departure and, as her #1 fan i feel I can say this: the big, stooopid idiot married a stupider idiot and they lapped up this shyster's suggestions because they were stupidest!!!!
Everybody tries to get the best buy they can in everything. So do lawyers. If this dude saw two simpletons with a third of a million dollars, he's gonna go after it, and did. Flo just wanted OUT - there was no plan or reasoning with her. I so wish it wasn't that way.
Where Motown screwed them over was with chargebacks, shady royalty payments and live performance fee ripoffs.
Ross prolly made more her first year at RCA -than in all her solo years at Motown - not including her 23 mil signing bonus. It took her 20 years and Gene Simmons to open her eyes.
Mary was stupid and greedy also - trying to get The Supremes' name. Why just her? Had she gone to Miss Ross between insults and indignation's and not when she was being named Turki's God Mother, going to her solo debut or loaning her broke ass money, and said, " let's do this as a team for your kids, mine and Flo's' Miss Ross mighta listened and made it happen. Instead, Mary hires a lawyer to get her a solo deal [[at a company that wouldn't even let her sing a full lead on a show, mind you) in exchange for the name fight and winds up with nada but a legal bill. The atty must have known she'd be getting screwed but he wanted a fee and did what was asked. Motown got Mary off their back and if her album took off, they'd make money and do another. If not, they'd be out nothing and be done with her.
you can't blame atty's for clients who don't think things out.

All true points [[though you'll probably hear from the Mary fans!)
I wonder when the concept of royalties and just how valuable an asset they were became common knowledge to non-composing performers? Was there a "watershed" moment?

[marybrewster]

I think it's crystal clear to everyone, even Mary, that the ONLY reason MW got a "solo" deal at Motown was for her to drop the lawsuit. Mary shot herself in the heel with that one.

I've wondered if Mary would have held out for one more year and released her LP after the "disco craze", if a more ballad-y or rock-ish themed record wouldn't have fared better.

The only song I can tolerate on "Mary Wilsion" is "You're the Light that Guides My Way".

[marybrewster]

As Flo didn't have legal representation when she signed her release from Motown, her original contract signed by her mother, conflict of interest in being employed by Motown and represented by Motown.... ..couldn't some or all of these reasons justify her family seeking compensation ? Martha Reeves and others successfully sued for royalties signed away and some of these points were in Mary's lawsuit against Motown. Just wondering. And the Supremes getting only $100,000 each in 1970 just boggles the mind...yes inflation would make it about $600,000 today, but still...

Have you ever read Randall Wilson's "Forever Fauthful"? He pretty much breaks down to the dollar what Flo received $$$-wise after leaving Motown. It's pretty thorough and a very good read on Florence specifically.

[supremester]

I've been hearing from Mary fans for 40 years, I can stand it. They just don't look past Poor Mary - The Victim to think things out. I don't care.

No one could possibly have known how much future royalties for Flo would have been = however, with a #1 album still in the top ten when when signed out, plus 15 LPs in print and such, a GOOD lawyer would have advised her of their value. Maybe Braun felt the $160k was it's value and told Flo to take it so she didn't have to deal with Motown later - who knows? Motown stars were different in that they generally had a body of work under one roof that was easier to market - AND keep track of.


All true points [[though you'll probably hear from the Mary fans!)
I wonder when the concept of royalties and just how valuable an asset they were became common knowledge to non-composing performers? Was there a "watershed" moment?

[RobertZ]

I've been hearing from Mary fans for 40 years, I can stand it. They just don't look past Poor Mary - The Victim to think things out. I don't care.

No one could possibly have known how much future royalties for Flo would have been = however, with a #1 album still in the top ten when when signed out, plus 15 LPs in print and such, a GOOD lawyer would have advised her of their value. Maybe Braun felt the $160k was it's value and told Flo to take it so she didn't have to deal with Motown later - who knows? Motown stars were different in that they generally had a body of work under one roof that was easier to market - AND keep track of.

All true. Who could have known, in ’67-’68, about “The Big Chill”, singing raisins, etc? After all, this was during a time when Motown LPs could be had in Woolworth cut-out bins at 2-for $1.00. The only way to know if Ms. Ballard’s exit compensation was fair would be to compare it to other Motown exit-ees of the same time. Which has probably been done.


What happened to Ms. Ballard is sad, but I don’t feel there was any “grand conspiracy” at work. She effed up, she got fired. That’s it. And let’s not forget Mr. Gordy’s assembly line philosophy lesser members were replaceable, which in this case turned out to be true.

The Ballard Royalty Saga gets run up the flagpole every several months. Fact is, contract negotiations are private and unless we actually SEE the final negotiations AND compare it with others of the same era – we’ll never know the answer.

[BayouMotownMan]

Well, some of these points may be harsh but based in accuracy. Surely Flo and Mary had bad representation and relied on husbands that knew less than they did in some cases. What major companies are good at is bleeding out the victim; tying up the proceedings with endless delays leaving the victim in desperate financial straits.

Also, I think Berry Gordy knew the value of his music but not even he could envision the windfall that movies, commercials and tv specials would make on profits. Remember, another problem was that these women did not write and produce their material and it is the writers and producers who make the most money. Signing away future royalties, to be sure Motown downplayed that during legal debates saying this music was dead and there was no market for in the future. Then the artist signed away what they thought was value-less music for an immediate sum.

[RobertZ]

Well, some of these points may be harsh but based in accuracy. Surely Flo and Mary had bad representation and relied on husbands that knew less than they did in some cases. What major companies are good at is bleeding out the victim; tying up the proceedings with endless delays leaving the victim in desperate financial straits.

Also, I think Berry Gordy knew the value of his music but not even he could envision the windfall that movies, commercials and tv specials would make on profits. Remember, another problem was that these women did not write and produce their material and it is the writers and producers who make the most money. Signing away future royalties, to be sure Motown downplayed that during legal debates saying this music was dead and there was no market for in the future. Then the artist signed away what they thought was value-less music for an immediate sum.

Well put. A sad addendum: Ms. Ballard is gone 40 years and fans still obsess over her poverty; Cindy Birdsong is alive and in need of assistance, but when I posted information about this on Soulful Detroit it was derided as “internet fraud”, “inappropriate advertising”, etc – even though the name and address of the gentleman organizing the effort provided full personal information, and the effort is co-sponsored by other FLOs …

[rod_rick]

Well, some of these points may be harsh but based in accuracy. Surely Flo and Mary had bad representation and relied on husbands that knew less than they did in some cases. What major companies are good at is bleeding out the victim; tying up the proceedings with endless delays leaving the victim in desperate financial straits.

Also, I think Berry Gordy knew the value of his music but not even he could envision the windfall that movies, commercials and tv specials would make on profits. Remember, another problem was that these women did not write and produce their material and it is the writers and producers who make the most money. Signing away future royalties, to be sure Motown downplayed that during legal debates saying this music was dead and there was no market for in the future. Then the artist signed away what they thought was value-less music for an immediate sum.

Many Diana Ross fans don't realize that Diana didn't have much of her money when she was with Motown, but she was smart enough to leave Motown and make her own dollars and keep it in her pockets. Was Diana married when she signed her RCA deal?

[sansradio]

Many Diana Ross fans don't realize that Diana didn't have much of her money when she was with Motown, but she was smart enough to leave Motown and make her own dollars and keep it in her pockets. Was Diana married when she signed her RCA deal?

Assuming your question wasn't rhetorical, no, she wasn't.

[captainjames]

The bravest and smartest thing Diana did was leave Motown. I remember right around that time Mary Wilson was quoted as saying Diana would never leave.

[jobeterob]

And today the royalties have dwindled now that nobody much pays for music.

As I recall, Cindy also thought Diana would never leave.

Didn't Randy's Call Her Miss Ross peg the royalties at $85000 a year for either Diana or Mary in 1989? Not exactly an amount that'll make you rich but it's a decent income.

[supremester]

No one thought Miss Ross would leave Motown, but with one wave of her pen, she was set for life and have more in the bank than from 18 #1's 100 million records sold and 15 years on almost nonstop touring top venues at top prices - plus starring in 3 major films and TV. Yes, the smartest thing she ever did - financially and emotionally. 3 1/2 decades later, she's setting box office records and is absolutely a smash in Vegas. Best move she ever, ever made.

[Guy]

Many Diana Ross fans don't realize that Diana didn't have much of her money when she was with Motown, but she was smart enough to leave Motown and make her own dollars and keep it in her pockets. Was Diana married when she signed her RCA deal?

I think I read somewhere, maybe "Call Her Miss Ross," that after all those years as the Queen of Motown, Diana's net worth was just $250k before she signed with RCA.

I find some of the comments in this discussion very harsh. I have nothing but compassion for those young women [[Diana, Mary, Flo, Cindy and all the rest) who did not know how to secure their futures through all of these sophisticated financial dealings. They were unaccustomed to arms-length transactions with parties whose economic interests were at odds with their own. Culturally, women were expected to defer consideration of these matters to authority -- husbands, fathers, lovers, bosses and lawyers. Moreover, Motown was a "family" and it demanded the [[misplaced) trust of its artists. The girls didn't stand a chance.

[supremester]

Guy, you are correct in all you say. My language was harsh and I meant it to be. I can understand signing the first few contracts when they knew nothing - all they wanted was a chance to sign, I understand that. However, when Flo was negotiating her departure and realized there was a fraction of the money she expected and earned, common sense should have kicked in at some point. Had her lawyer been ethical, he would have advised Flo for a full accounting of her royalties and performance fees - but he just grabbed what he could quickly and took it all. In a year, Flo was broke - somewhere that should have been a wake up call to Diana & Mary.
Jan 14 1970 - DR&TS is legally dissolved and each get 100k? C'mon - that's a fourth of what Flo got and their tickt scale was way higher. It's nuts that they didn't look into it.
Spring 1976 Bob Silberstein complains openly to People magazine about Ross' finances with Motown. She listened to Berry over her own husband? She was touring like mad in top venues arounf=d the world at top prices, selling millions of albums and singles, not to mention salaries for 3 major films including a cool mil for The Wiz, and all she had was a house, cars, furs some stock and 250k??? Gene Simmons got through to her.
Mary woke up out of neccessity.
I admire Gordy very much for a lot of things - his greed with his artists' money is not one of them. He psychologically abused Miss Ross and to a lesser degree others, for control and money.

[captainjames]

supremester alas a lot of what you have said is true. I will not go into detail.

[Bluebrock]

Much as i love Flo [[and indeed all former Supremes)i think she was her own worst enemy in some respects. Badly advised certainly but also from what i can gather she contributed to her own downfall, and that for me is the greatest tragedy of all. So sad.

[Philles/Motown Gary]

I think I read somewhere, maybe "Call Her Miss Ross," that after all those years as the Queen of Motown, Diana's net worth was just $250k before she signed with RCA.

I find some of the comments in this discussion very harsh. I have nothing but compassion for those young women [[Diana, Mary, Flo, Cindy and all the rest) who did not know how to secure their futures through all of these sophisticated financial dealings. They were unaccustomed to arms-length transactions with parties whose economic interests were at odds with their own. Culturally, women were expected to defer consideration of these matters to authority -- husbands, fathers, lovers, bosses and lawyers. Moreover, Motown was a "family" and it demanded the [[misplaced) trust of its artists. The girls didn't stand a chance.

You’re absolutely right, Guy, especially when the girls were promised that Motown would always protect them and take care of them. They believed it, and they trusted that it would always remain true.

[RobertZ]

So, according to Wikipedia, Ms. Ballard received "... a one-time payment of $139,804.94 in royalties and earnings from Motown. ", in 1968 dollars. Ms. Wilson, Ms. Birdsong, and Ms. Ross are known to have each received $100,000 upon dissolution of the group, in 1970 dollars. Which means that Ms. Ballard received exit compensation in excess of that of any other Supreme, including Ms. Ross. End of story. Instead of perpetuating the urban myth of martyrdom, remember Ms. Florence Ballard well for her contributions to American popular music, the development of Motown, African American acceptance into the American mainstream, and her talent.

[bradsupremes]

I thought the group's assets were $100,000 total in 1970. Not individually, but the entire group as a whole. I know everything was paid for by the ladies [[ex. Recording sessions, gowns, allowances, etc). It just boggles my mind how much they were screwed out of money. Someone brought up the fact if they played [[and I'm sure they did) a 5,000 seat arena for 3 days with the average ticket price of $4.50, they would have made $67,500. That's for 3 days! They were constantly touring, doing TV appearances, etc. Let's not forget Motown didn't report record sales to RIAA. How could their assets only be $100,000?

[marv2]

I thought the group's assets were $100,000 total in 1970. Not individually, but the entire group as a whole. I know everything was paid for by the ladies [[ex. Recording sessions, gowns, allowances, etc). It just boggles my mind how much they were screwed out of money. Someone brought up the fact if they played [[and I'm sure they did) a 5,000 seat arena for 3 days with the average ticket price of $4.50, they would have made $67,500. That's for 3 days! They were constantly touring, doing TV appearances, etc. Let's not forget Motown didn't report record sales to RIAA. How could their assets only be $100,000?

All they got was $100,000 a piece in 1970 according to Mary. They didn't understand money, finance, accounting etc, etc. Berry Gordy led them to believe that "100,000 tax free American Dollars was a fortune and that they needed him to look after it for them" That is exactly how he spoke to them about their money which was a fraction of what they had earned! As late as 1974 Mary had to get Berry's permission and co-signature to purchase things such as cars , homes etc. The weird symmetrical mansion that Diana Ross lived in, including the yellow Rolls Royce she drove around Beverly Hills were just on loan to her from Motown. She did not find that out until she decided to leave the company!

[luke]

Mary had to say she wouldn't sue Motown if they settled her previous lawsuit to get her solo album made. Diana wouldn't sue for obvious reasons. And apparently Flos daughters just can't get it together. Rip off of the century.

[jobeterob]

Not to mention they all signed releases absolving Motown of any further liability!

[marv2]

Not to mention they all signed releases absolving Motown of any further liability!


No they didn't. Only on a case by case basis. They could not sue for the same thing twice once the specific legal action was settled. They could, however bring a whole new set of different charges and complaints and that did happen!

[captainjames]

Really kind of sad if you make waves you no longer eat. Diana tried to negotiate but Motown claimed they could not match it. Mary tried to pull the rings in but they offer her finally a solo career [[ I don't think there were many offers).

[jobeterob]

No they didn't. Only on a case by case basis. They could not sue for the same thing twice once the specific legal action was settled. They could, however bring a whole new set of different charges and complaints and that did happen!

Maybe the Labour Commissioner case but nothing successful, sadly. Of course, Diana didn't need to bother.

[captainjames]

By everyone's account and $$ that were distributed during the end of contracts. The homes on Buenna Vista were definitely not over a one hundred thousand back in 1970. This would make sense why Mary and Diana were able to secure their homes. Flo must did not know she still had a house payment.

[midnightman]

When you marry a shady individual [[Thomas Chapman) and hire a shadier lawyer [[Leonard Baum), you get some bad results. Florence just wanted out but didn't think clearly on how to do it. She agreed to sign a contract that didn't allow her to promote her past experience as a member of a supergroup as the Supremes had become by the time she left in 1967 and in turn, the people in her team didn't help to build a reputation outside the Supremes.

[milven]

.... Florence just wanted out but didn't think clearly on how to do it. She agreed to sign a contract that didn't allow her to promote her past experience as a member of... the Supremes..... the people in her team didn't help to build a reputation outside the Supremes.

Outside of hardcore fans, most people do not know the individual names of the Supremes, with the exception of Diana.

Susaye is probably the only Supreme who built a solo career without using the Supremes name or songs. The other Supremes have performed as Former Ladies and Mary has always had the Supremes' name somewhere in her billing and at times even performed as The Supremes. It had to be didfficult for Flo to start out a solo career and not be able to mention that she was a Supreme.

I remember Teddy Pendergrass being an instant success when he left his group. Was he able to bill himself as Teddy Pendergrass or did he have to rely on his group's name in the billing [[which I don't think Harold Melvin would have allowed)?

[captainjames]

Teddy to me was already singing co-lead in the BlueNotes even though it was billed Harold Melvin and The BlueNotes

[milven]

Yes, he was singing lead on the Bluenotes hits and his voice was instantly recognizable, but many people thought that they were hearing Harold Melvin's voice when the group's songs were introduced by dee-jays. But he may have been the exception.

When Tony Williams left the Platters, his career fizzled. And just like DIana Ross was the voice of The Supremes, Tony was the voice of The Platters

[rod_rick]

Yes, he was singing lead on the Bluenotes hits and his voice was instantly recognizable, but many people thought that they were hearing Harold Melvin's voice when the group's songs were introduced by dee-jays. But he may have been the exception.

When Tony Williams left the Platters, his career fizzled. And just like DIana Ross was the voice of The Supremes, Tony was the voice of The Platters

Also remember before TP left the Blue Notes the act was billed : Harold Melvin and the Bluenotes featuring Teddy Pendergrass. So Teddy had voice and name recognition before he left the group.

[mellow_q]

Also remember before TP left the Blue Notes the act was billed : Harold Melvin and the Bluenotes featuring Teddy Pendergrass. So Teddy had voice and name recognition before he left the group.

Keep in mind also ... When Teddy left Harold Melvin & the Blue Notes, it was he and not Harold Melvin who stayed at Philly International and had access to Gamble & Huff and the rest of the talent at that company. Also, PIR promoted him as a sex symbol and not just a great singer, so that opened him to an entirely different audience; not just fans of his previous hits with the Blue Notes.

[RossHolloway]

I'm just curious what other members in other groups received when they left their respective groups. Like what did Betty Kelly and Roz Ashford receive when they both left Martha & The Vandellas or what about Gladys Horton? What was her buyout package when she left the Marvelettes in 1967? Or David Ruffin when he was dismissed from the Temptations in 1968? OR when Smokey left the Miracles in 1972?

[rod_rick]

I'm just curious what other members in other groups received when they left their respective groups. Like what did Betty Kelly and Roz Ashford receive when they both left Martha & The Vandellas or what about Gladys Horton? What was her buyout package when she left the Marvelettes in 1967? Or David Ruffin when he was dismissed from the Temptations in 1968? OR when Smokey left the Miracles in 1972?

Ross GREAT Question. We harper on the Supremes all the time but yes what about the others? I'm sure Smokey made out like a bandit because not only was he the lead singer and writer for the Miracles he was also the vice president of Motown Records.

[midnightman]

David tried to sue Motown to get out of the contract he signed in 1963 [[he had an independent contract unlike the rest of the Temptations), Motown responded by giving him a solo deal instead.

[RossHolloway]

David tried to sue Motown to get out of the contract he signed in 1963 [[he had an independent contract unlike the rest of the Temptations), Motown responded by giving him a solo deal instead.
If I'm not mistake doesn't David's heirs/family still receive royalties from his time with the Temptations?

[midnightman]

^ I reckon. I don't know if he signed away his royalties when he left Motown in, what, 1980? But as far as Temptations royalties, IDK... but his estate [[i.e., his children) probably still gets royalties from "My Girl" and the like.

[jobeterob]

I'm just curious what other members in other groups received when they left their respective groups. Like what did Betty Kelly and Roz Ashford receive when they both left Martha & The Vandellas or what about Gladys Horton? What was her buyout package when she left the Marvelettes in 1967? Or David Ruffin when he was dismissed from the Temptations in 1968? OR when Smokey left the Miracles in 1972?

I don't like the idea but didn't we once get told that the Vandellas were employees of Martha's and received no royalties?

[RossHolloway]

I knew this topic had been discussed not so long ago. This thread was about the Paul William's children and their fight for royalty payments.

http://soulfuldetroit.com/showthread.php?3158-Paul-William-s-heirs-and-royalties&highlight=royalties+lawsuit

[RossHolloway]

I don't like the idea but didn't we once get told that the Vandellas were employees of Martha's and received no royalties?

It would be interesting to know if any of the recording Vandellas still get royalty payments. I also wonder how well the successful songwriters are making out today with royalty payments?

[rod_rick]

I don't like the idea but didn't we once get told that the Vandellas were employees of Martha's and received no royalties?

Yeah that's what Martha aid but if I'm not mistaken Rz clarified that by stating they were signed to [[Annette, Betty, and Roz) and were able to sue and won their back royalties. Not sure if they are still getting paid.

[jobeterob]

Yeah that's what Martha aid but if I'm not mistaken Rz clarified that by stating they were signed to [[Annette, Betty, and Roz) and were able to sue and won their back royalties. Not sure if they are still getting paid.

That's good even if they aren't what they used to be in terms of amount.