Say Hello to Ken Sands. Technical thread.

[ralpht]

Super engineer, Ken Sands, is in the house. Long time United Sound engineer, Tera Shirma consultant, Motown engineer, and you name it, Ken has done it all. Ken has agreed to come on the forum to answer any questions you might have regarding those earlier days in the Detroit music scene. Enjoy, he is a wealth of Detroit recording knowledge. Welcome my old friend. Proud to have you with us.

[jobeterob]

I'm sure Ken will have a very appreciative audience. Thanks for coming here.

[Philles/Motown Gary]

Hi Ken, and welcome! How cool that you worked at Motown in their Detroit studios! Did you ever work on any projects with Russ Terrana while you were there?

[theboyfromxtown]

Welcome Ken

What were the projects you were most proud of.

Can you confirm your engineer check letter as "S". Am I right in assuming the Underdogs "Love's Gone Bad" is one of your projects? Were you also involved in a recording of "It Should Have Been Me"

[Ken Sands]

Yeah Russ and I worked on Supremes "Love Child" and "I'm Livin' in shame". Back n the early 70's.

[Ken Sands]

Yes my letter was "S" inherited from another previous engineer.

[Ken Sands]

I did not work on "Loves gone bad" but don't recall if I worked on "It should have been me." Its only been 40 years!

[marv2]

Hello Ken and welcome!

[ralpht]

Ken,
What are you up to these das? I seem to remember you were doing sound at one of the Detroit sports stadiums.

[soulster]

Yeah Russ and I worked on Supremes "Love Child" and "I'm Livin' in shame". Back n the early 70's.

Ken, a few years ago, I posted a topic asking about the stereo mix of "Love Child". I even posted the hilarious story of how the final mono hit single mix came to be, the one R. Dean Taylor [[supposedly) did under the guidance of Berry Gordy.

My point of interest was about the snare drum slam after the swirling strings in the first four seconds of the intro. It is always muted in the stereo mix. I don't know if you were involved with the stereo mix, but do you have any idea of what that is? I tried my best to recreate the impact of the snare we hear on the mono mix in stereo with little success.

[ralpht]

I'm not sure if Ken is looking in, Soulster. Give it a little time.

[Sotosound]

I thought that your attempt was quite good, actually. :)

[ralpht]

Thank you Soto. I just sent Ken an email letting him know there is activity on his thread. Hope he shows.

[westgrandboulevard]

Soulster, get some more questions ready, quickly.....

If you have any questions you would like to ask anyone else, maybe let Ralph know about them? He may possibly consider contacting the people concerned and see if they are interested to visit Soulful Detroit and tackle those prepared questions, if they are able?

Just trying to be a little positive here....:)

[ralpht]

Don't get ahead of yourself westgrand.....

[ralpht]

I just received an email from Ken and he is more than eager to get into a technical discussion with you guys. Ask and ye shall receive.

[westgrandboulevard]

Ralph.......:):):)

[RobertZ]

Hi Ken - Not sure which projects you worked on, but here's a general question I always wonder about. At a point in the late 1960s Motown shifted from a more "innocent" sounding output to darker and more politically/socially aware music. I would assume that much of the same studios and musicians were used. What sort of challanges do engineers face when music changes like this? There's a big difference between, say, "I'm Gonna Make You Love Me" and "Smiling Faces" and "Papa Was A Rolling Stone". Are technical adjustments made during recording or mixing to reflect the "darker" sound?

[Ken Sands]

Robert, I was on those sessions with Norman Whitfield and Barrett Strong,...the Temptations, Marvin Gaye, et. al. The writers were immersed in "whats goin' on" in those political times. ANGER was the Great Motivator in the songwriting of the time,...Kent State killings, communism infiltrating the political leaders of the time and the devaluing of life in the legalization of child killing with Planned Parenthood,....especially the black child who was targeted for death by unscrupulous
white leaders in the "pro choice" cause. These were tough times to live in especially when you were "pro-life" for all like me.

[Ken Sands]

Hi Ken, and welcome! How cool that you worked at Motown in their Detroit studios! Did you ever work on any projects with Russ Terrana while you were there?

I have never worked a session with Russ, sorry to say....He is a wonderful mixer/producer!

[ralpht]

Yeah Ken, I guess "Ball Of Confusion" was a tad darker than "Baby Love".

[ralpht]

It was rare for engineers to work a project together. Most engineers were assigned a project, many times at the request of the producer.

[Ken Sands]

"Whit" [[Norman Whitfield) had a kind of "brooding" personality

[ralpht]

Well put, Ken. But he could really make me laugh.

[Ken Sands]

Robert, the Supremes, Vandellas, Marvellettes and such were kind of " cookie cutter"
productions with all of the guitars "direct" into the board [[not "Miked" they just plugged into the direct panel box in the studio) with the great sound of "clean" no "leakage" audio directly to the console.

Whit broke the mold by overdubbing "miked" "Wah-wah" Ragin and Dennis Coffey guitars with all of the "special effects pedals" that sounded LIVE on stage,...in the studio.
The keyboards were normally miked [[piano and organ) but the Wurlitzer and Rhodes
electric pianos were taken "direct" to the direct box on the wall in the studio. So was the "Ondioline" sysnthesizer and Clavinet.

[soulster]

I recall, when reading an interview with Mike MClean where it was said that [[unless i'm mistaken that it was him) at some point, the stereo mixes were done at night in the house next door that Gordy bought. It was also said that there were literally cables running from the main studio to that house.

Now, what i'm wondering about is: since a lot of those stereo mixes came out sounding nothing like the mono singles, did these night engineers use the mono mixes for guides, or did they just pretty much fly by the seat of their pants?



I think it would be best to avoid inserting political opinions, as people have varying opinions, and could derail the thread and get nasty. It's probably best to start a separate thread about it so people can debate it.

[ralpht]

Soulster is right, Ken. I respect your opinions but it is probably best to keep things technical in the venue.

[RobertZ]

Robert, the Supremes, Vandellas, Marvellettes and such were kind of " cookie cutter"
productions with all of the guitars "direct" into the board [[not "Miked" they just plugged into the direct panel box in the studio) with the great sound of "clean" no "leakage" audio directly to the console.

Whit broke the mold by overdubbing "miked" "Wah-wah" Ragin and Dennis Coffey guitars with all of the "special effects pedals" that sounded LIVE on stage,...in the studio.
The keyboards were normally miked [[piano and organ) but the Wurlitzer and Rhodes
electric pianos were taken "direct" to the direct box on the wall in the studio. So was the "Ondioline" sysnthesizer and Clavinet.

Thanks, Ken - that's pretty amazing - and I've never heard of the Ondioline - was that a forerunner of the Roland? And I would presume the "acoustic" instruments [[piano and organ as you mention) were recorded separately from the electric which were recorded direct?

[bradburger]

Firstly, welcome back to the forum Ken.

I'm sure there will be the odd technical question which you will be able to have input in the future!

Soulster,

I don't ever recall anyone who worked at Motown mention that the stereo mixes [[and I assume you mean the early ones) were mixed in the house next door, with cables coming from the main building with studio A in.

I was always under the impression [[and it was confirmed by Bob Olhsson on another forum IIRC), that all mixing was done on the main console in the Studio A control room up until early or mid 1966, when a dedicated mixing room was built in one of the other Motown owned houses on West Grand Boulevard.

Of course, when Motown bought the Donovan building later on and became their main HQ, this had a couple or more mixing rooms in it. [[Perhaps Ken could confirm how many?)

And I've always thought the "Night Engineer" doing the stereo mixes thing is a bit of a myth.

Sure, they would mix at night, but only because that's what they were assigned to do if that happened to be when their shift was!

Cheers

Paul

[soulster]

Soulster,

I don't ever recall anyone who worked at Motown mention that the stereo mixes [[and I assume you mean the early ones) were mixed in the house next door, with cables coming from the main building with studio A in.

I was always under the impression [[and it was confirmed by Bob Olhsson on another forum IIRC), that all mixing was done on the main console in the Studio A control room up until early or mid 1966, when a dedicated mixing room was built in one of the other Motown owned houses on West Grand Boulevard.

Yes! That would be the house next door..or one house down.


And I've always thought the "Night Engineer" doing the stereo mixes thing is a bit of a myth.

Sure, they would mix at night, but only because that's what they were assigned to do if that happened to be when their shift was!

As you know, at Motown, and the 60s in general, it was the mono mixes that got priority. So, it totally makes sense that the stereo mixes, usually created only for an album after the fact to promote the group and gain extra revenue, would be done on the graveyard shift. And, many stereo mixes would up sounding very different from the mono singles because not all of the parts were available to that engineer for the stereo mixdowns. All this is up to about 1966, of course.

[ralpht]

RobertZ,
If you know the instrumental solo in the Del Shannon song "Runaway" you know what an ondioline is.

[westgrandboulevard]

As played, for an example, on "[[You're My) Dream Come True" by The Temptations?

What was used to create what I originally thought was an harmonica sound on "The Hunter Gets Captured By The Game" by The Marvelettes - but began to imagine was actually a keyboard?

[phil]

RobertZ,
If you know the instrumental solo in the Del Shannon song "Runaway" you know what an ondioline is.

Ondioline was the ancestor of moog.

[ralpht]

The way I remember it, "Runaway" was recorded at United Sound. Some record producers can be, like a lot of baseball players, superstitious, and want to record where a big hit came out of. Because of the Ondioline, many thought it was United's organ and they lined up to book session time. I got this straight from Harry.

[RobertZ]

RobertZ, If you know the instrumental solo in the Del Shannon song "Runaway" you know what an ondioline is. Interesting - here are some links about the ondioline - it's quite a stretch that one made its way to Motown, being that there were only about 700 manufactured. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ondioline http://www.ondioline.com/ I'd like to know from Ken what he remembers about this instrument, and his challanges in recording it. This was certainly not an instrument that very many engineers got to record!

[144man]

The purchase of the Ondioline from Wurlitzer's music store in downtown Detroit is covered in pp. 106 & 107 of Miss Ray's book "Berry, Me , and Motown".

[RobertZ]

Since we have 2 active Temps threads going and Mr. Sands engineered w/ Norman Whitfield I'm hoping he drops by and continues to tell us about recording with Mr. Whitfield, and of particular interest to me the engineering challenges in recording a "darker" sound.