How do you differentiate Motown's Drummers?

[Kraig Diesel]

How can you tell the difference between Benny Benjamin, Uriel Jones, and Pistol Allen?

[BayouMotownMan]

If you have a copy of Standing In The Shadows Of Motown DVD, I think it was Pistol Allen who described the differences. Suffice it to say, Benny was inimitable. Listen to 7-Rooms of Gloom or There's A Ghost In My House. He was quick as lightening

[Kraig Diesel]

I saw Pistol's explanation years ago on the DVD...It didn't explain much. I guess I'm looking for a more technical answer.

[soulwally]

I agree Kraig, it told us nothing. Suffice to say, it's predominantly Benny in the early years, but but by 65/66 there was so much being recorded the load had to be shared. By 1967, I've read, Benny was so reduced, he was playing colouration on cymbals on Gladys's Grapevine, and not the main drum part

[theboyfromxtown]

I know what you mean......it's not easy to understand if you're not a drummer! Plus, having 2 drummers on the same track doesn't help either.

If you listen to the fills.....the bits in between........that seems to be where the distinction is.

[soulwally]

Those fills are so familiar to us... but who's playing which remains a mystery.

[gary]

I remember this topic being discussed in depth several years ago on the old forum. Very interesting and informative thread as I recall. It's probably still in the archives.

[theboyfromxtown]

I remember this topic being discussed in depth several years ago on the old forum. Very interesting and informative thread as I recall. It's probably still in the archives.

Well remembered Gary.....but have to say it was still a trifle too deep for me.

[soulster]

You don't have to be a drummer to tell the differences, but there are certain drummers who have a distinct style, like Pistol Allen, Stevie Wonder, or, if you get away from Motown, Jeff Porcaro, John Robinson, Tony Thompson, Al Jackson, or even Maurice White.

[theboyfromxtown]

Soulster

Can you explain the differences to us who are not so well abled. Some examples would be useful.

[Sotosound]

I believe that the thread in question was started by yours truly. If you want to read it, try this link.

http://faac.us/adf/messages/131452/201619.html?1256214080

I'm also sure that Soulster will explain the differences very well and I look forward to his post.

As for my own clumsy - and personal - perspective....

Looking back on that old thread and what I've listened to since, Benny Benjamin was probably the most versatile drummer of the trio. Plus he was fast. His timing was excellent, even when he was going hell for leather. And even then, he'd throw a little extra something in for variety's sake. If anyone could sound like any of the three, it was Benny. On "Guess I'll Always Love You" by The Isleys Brothers, he puts himself right in Pistol's comfort zone but with just a little extra pizzazz. On "Behind A Painted Smile" by The Isley Brothers, he sounds like Uriel, just concentrating on the beat, with no fancy fills at all. Again, however, there's just that little extra something. After cutting that track we all sadly lost him.

Pistol sometimes sounded to me like he was from a previous era, and I get the feeling that he preferred to accompany rather than drive the band. He was really jazzy at times, and he could sound funky as well. For Jazzy, check out "How Sweet It Is [[To Be Loved By You)" by Marvin Gaye. For funky, check out "Standing In The Shadows Of Love" by Four Tops. When he wasn't being jazzy or funky, however, he sometimes sounded like he would have been happy playing on early 60s pop songs by the likes of Bobby Vee or Neil Sedaka.

Uriel was probably the least jazzy of the three, and I also get the feeling that he was less imaginative in his playing. He played some good fills, but he would normally repeat the same fill throughout a track rather than mixing things up as Benny and Pistol would. Uriel was probably the funkiest of the drummers and was a good match for Normal Whitfield's funkier productions with the Temptations. Check out "Ain't Too Proud To Beg". He also - to me - sounded the most heavy handed of the three and - to me - therefore sometimes sounded slower and less subtle. This might, however, be what was asked of him when he was most prominent as a drummer, i.e. in the late 60s and early 70s, after Benny had passed, and at a time when Uriel played the skins and Pistol played the cymbals on the same track. On the other hand, perhaps he just played with heavier sticks as this can greatly influence a drummer's sound. Check out "I'm Living In Shame" by Diana Ross and The Supremes. I think this features Uriel on skins [[at the very least). You can hear how heavy his beats were.

Listening to "I'm Living In Shame", it opens with a heavy hitting 1-2-3-4-5 on the snare. My guess is that Benny might have thrown a roll into that somewhere, whereas Pistol would probably have counted it off and played just 3-4-5 or even, maybe, just 5.

[theboyfromxtown]

Thank you Sotosound. Much appreciated by me.

Hopefully, Soulster will give some different examples to enable me to learn from a more extensive body of work.

However. stay around nearby Sotosound, I might start a thread on how to recognise Joe Messina's guitar playing and I could do with your input.

[gary]

Nice summary Sotosound. Here is the thread I was talking about.

http://soulfuldetroit.com/archives/6593/8453.html?1093591988

[Sotosound]

Thank you Sotosound. Much appreciated by me.

Hopefully, Soulster will give some different examples to enable me to learn from a more extensive body of work.

However. stay around nearby Sotosound, I might start a thread on how to recognise Joe Messina's guitar playing and I could do with your input.

LOL. One thing I know is that his playing doesn't make "Chank" sounds!

[soulster]

It's not all about fills, really. It's about the way they approach drumming. For instance, Pistol Allen[[?) played the drums on Stevie Wonder's "Signed, Sealed, Delivered" very straightforward, simply keeping the time. He had a forceful, solid, very metered time, while Benny may have played it a bit more relaxed. Stevie Wonder would have sounded a bit lush.

[thomas96]

I couldn't really explain it. I could tell who's on which song by listening. Pistol played with traditional grip which has a slightly different sound than matched. Uriel played more like Benny so that's a little tougher but there are little nuances that separates them.

[bradsupremes]

I love this thread. I've always been fascinated by the distinctive styles of the Benny, Uriel and Pistol. At times I thought I could identify which drummer was playing, but since a lot of tracks had 2 drummers I just get confused again. Pistol demonstrated his pick up style in SITSOM and I can hear it clearly on the Supremes' version of "Stormy."

[thomas96]

My favorite drums in a song [[Motown only) is "Walk In The Night" by Jr Walker and the All Stars. Perfect perfect perfect blend of two drummers and Jack on the tambourine. Of course Benny had passed by then so we don't get his magic on it, but it's still a superb track for drums.

[soulster]

My favorite drums in a song [[Motown only) is "Walk In The Night" by Jr Walker and the All Stars. Perfect perfect perfect blend of two drummers and Jack on the tambourine. Of course Benny had passed by then so we don't get his magic on it, but it's still a superb track for drums.

I need to check out the mono mix, as the stereo mix has the drums too far back.

I have lots of favorite songs with great examples of drums, mostly non-Motown. My favorite use of two drummers on the same recording is "Lowdown" by Boz Scaggs.

[Sotosound]

I need to check out the mono mix, as the stereo mix has the drums too far back.

I have lots of favorite songs with great examples of drums, mostly non-Motown. My favorite use of two drummers on the same recording is "Lowdown" by Boz Scaggs.

Love that track and bought in on single when it was originally released but I've got a feeling that the mono version is a fold-down of the stereo mix. :[[

[thomas96]

I need to check out the mono mix, as the stereo mix has the drums too far back.

I have lots of favorite songs with great examples of drums, mostly non-Motown. My favorite use of two drummers on the same recording is "Lowdown" by Boz Scaggs.

I'll have to check that out. Of course, all my favorite drum tunes are jazz songs, I was just pointing that out as my favorite from the Hitsville drummers. No Motown drummer [[or any other non-jazz drummer for that matter) can compare to the likes of Max Roach, Art Blakey, Roy Haynes, Elvin Jones, Philly Joe Jones, Buddy Rich, etc. Different styles but in terms of innovation and creativity those guys have got it.

[Sotosound]

Nice summary Sotosound. Here is the thread I was talking about.

http://soulfuldetroit.com/archives/6593/8453.html?1093591988

Just checked out that thread and it's really cool. So... who did play drums on "Dancing In The Street"? I'd understood that it was Marvin Gaye.

[sansradio]

Just checked out that thread and it's really cool. So... who did play drums on "Dancing In The Street"? I'd understood that it was Marvin Gaye.

Indeed, that is the one and only MPG.

[motown4ever]

I am Benny Benjamin's Drumming Son! Smile.I mostly play Gospel and a little
Jazz, and when I look into the pews, or the audience, I smile when I throw in an accent on a tom-tomwhileplaying a straight pattern. It is kind of an inside joke to me that l am playing in a style that was popular 50 years ago, but because no one else does it these days, it sounds distinctive.

The early books on the history of Motown suggested that as James Jamerson played on most tracks, so did Benny. Pistol and Uriel maybe getting barely a passing mention. With the CD era, it became clear to me that while Benny may have been there from the beginning alone, by the time the machine was operating on all cylinders there was no way that he could have been playing
on all of the tracks.
I appreciate that mention was made of the number the
of
tunes that featured two Drummers. I refer to an article in Modern Drummer Magazine about Zoro, who played on Bobby Browns tours when there
were Bobby Brown tours saying that he learned to play to the records because he did not know there
was a second
drummer. Jazz lovers, if you listen to Tears of a Clown, from the album Make It Happen, not the sped up hit version from 3 years later that clearly had 2 drummers the fill is something Art Blakey might have played.

[soulwally]

Well... legend has it it's Marvin on Dancing in the Street. But on whose say-so? The muscular style suggests Benny rather than MPG.

[soulster]

Well... legend has it it's Marvin on Dancing in the Street. But on whose say-so? The muscular style suggests Benny rather than MPG. Didn't the engineers keep logs on this stuff?

[bradsupremes]

Didn't the engineers keep logs on this stuff?

I thought there were some documents from the Donovan Building that had listed which musicians were on what tracks. I think I remember seeing one from Marvin's "What's Going On" sessions. It's possible they didn't start that until later, but who knows what was taken or stolen from the Donovan Buliding before the remaining contents were destroyed.

[rovereab]

I always thought that the drumming on [[Come 'Round Here) I'm The One You Need, Nothing's Too Good For My Baby [[SW) and Chained [[MG) featured different drummers to most songs in the golden era. Perhaps they featured deliberately different drumming style?