Detroit or West Coast - what was the deciding factor?

[rovereab]

The recent thread on Brenda Holloway has got me thinking. Does anybody know what the deciding factor was for backing tracks being recorded at the different locations?

It doesn't seem to be entirely artist dependant as, for example, the Supreme's In And Out Of Love and Marvin and Tammi's Oh How I'd Miss You demonstrate from a predominantly Detroit catalogue of recordings.

It's also interesting that Wonderful Baby by the Four Tops was recorded in both locations with the final release being the West Coast version.

Thoughts please :)

[ralpht]

Rover,
I think it was more a matter of evolution. The West Coast crew slowly developed a roster of top rate session musicians that eventually made it more expedient to simply do the basic tracks out there. Unfortunately, this would be the undoing of the famed Funk Brothers. And the rest is history.

[bradsupremes]

There are several tracks where I actually prefer the West Coast productions. I haven't pinpointed what exactly it is, but there is a certain element of sophistication in the LA tracks which benefit a song for example "More Love" or "Love Is Here And Now You're Gone." I still prefer the Funks and there are some LA tracks that lack soul. Take a listen to some of the LA tracks on the A' Go-Go album. They are so bland I can't believe they weren't recut back in Detroit. Yet there are tracks like "In And Out Of Love" which were originally cut in Detroit but recut in LA. I highly doubt the Detroit track was bad.

[ralpht]

I told you those L.A. musicians were sharp. And yes, they had a different, less gritty, less Detroit sound, but it worked for the time. My brother is credited for bringing in bass player Freddie Washington to become the Jamerson of the West Coast operation. All very good and talented. Just different.

[keith_hughes]

There were two distinct eras in Motown's West Coast history. In 1965 and 1966, the volume of recording work was growing so fast that Hitsville simply couldn't cope, so a lot of work was outsourced to LA [[and NY) simply to relieve the pressure. The acquisition of Golden World in mid-66 meant that nearly all recording could now be done locally, and the volume of LA work rapidly decreased: Motown closed its LA office, Marc Gordon left for pastures new and the 5th Dimension, and Frank Wilson re-located to Detroit. I think Hal Davis remained in LA as Motown's agent. The West Coast musicians used during this first period were good, but they were session players - they didn't have the Motown Sound, they had their own sound.

The second phase began when BG moved to Hollywood to break into the movie business in around 1969-70. He wanted certain artists [[Supremes, J5) to be able to record under his control, and a new West Coast operation began ... which led to the building of a new team of dedicated Motown musicians, a new studio and eventually to the closure of Hitsville in 1973.

[Roger Polhill]

I take it that Freddie is the the bass player that Frank Wilson uses on his own recordings. Carole Kaye uses a pick and her sound to me is wooden.The drummer on some of Brenda`s recordings [["Who You Gonna Run To") is a good example I would remove some of his kit so that he wouldn`t be able to fill every gap with a flowery tour of his drums.Is it Hal Blaine?
Frank Wilson`s recordings of Barbara McNair doing the Smokey Robinson songs are in my opinion a waste of some great songs with backings that lack soul.
The Funks rule! The LA band is awkward.

[carole cucumber]

There were two distinct eras in Motown's West Coast history. In 1965 and 1966, ........ The West Coast musicians used were good, but they were session players - they didn't have the Motown Sound, they had their own sound.

The second phase began when BG moved to Hollywood to break into the movie business in around 1969-70.. ..... a new team of dedicated Motown musicians, a new studio and eventually to the closure of Hitsville in 1973.

Keith,
Sounds like a great idea for a Kent/Ace cd.
"East Coast/West Coast All Around Motown"
It would be great to hear the Detroit and the California versions of songs attempted in both areas- i.e ""In and Out Of Love" etc. Or the New York vs. Detroit vs. Chicago versions tracks that may have been recorded and completed.

[rovereab]

I'm just grateful that Love Is Like An Itching was assigned to Detroit!

[RossHolloway]

I agree with those who say that there was a distinct difference between Detroit and LA recordings. In my opinion the Funk Brothers just simply played from their heart/soul while the LA musicians played according to what was written on the sheet music. Just my opinion.

[ralpht]

Dennis Coffey made that point to me many years ago when ,after living several years in L.A.was back in Detroit and doing a horn session. He told me that "those guys play like they mean it". Kind of makes your point, Ross.

[bradsupremes]

Ralph, do you feel the recording process was much easier with the Detroit musicians?

[ralpht]

I can't say for sure Brad, since I had no experience with sessions on the West Coast. However what I did know, and still do, is that there was a closeness with the Funk Brothers that doesn't happen over night. It was nurtured by club dates and recording sessions and constantly playing together. They were destined to be monsters in the studio. I consider myself most fortunate to have been a part of the Detroit scene and working with these talented guys.

Taking nothing away from the West Coast musicians. They were the best to be found. All seasoned session players. But what was lacking, I think, is that close bond the Funks had playing the Detroit jazz clubs together when not in the studio. The L.A. counterparts were equally busy but in a more fractured way, I think. A couple of the guys might be a part of the Tonight Show band while a couple others were playing clubs spread all over greater Los Angeles. The point being, they , more than likely, weren't playing together. I think this is a major factor in the difference between the two session bands.

[detmotownguy]

I'm just grateful that Love Is Like An Itching was assigned to Detroit!

You can say that again! One of my fav's............I really like the extended version. It certainly has that Detroit edge.

[thomas96]

Great thread. Ralph, how long was Russ in Detroit vs. L.A?

[westgrandboulevard]

Not being directly involved with the music, just as a listener, but I've always very much preferred the Hitsville sound. That's what I call authentic Motown.

It was that sound which caught my spirits through the radio in the first place. It still does, wherever it is heard, like going to church to be uplifted, every time.

The session musicians on the West Coast may have been as good as anybody else in the business. They just weren't the Funk Brothers, who were simply unique.

As, too, were the acoustics in the Snakepit [[Golden World studio came very close). Jr Walker once said 'it was in the wood'. The combination of the Snakepit and The Funk Brothers defined the authentic Motown Sound. It most likely could not have been achieved even if all the Funk Brothers and everyone else had recorded in another studio in Detroit, let alone relocated to the West Coast.

Many of the still popular Northern Soul recordings were attempts to capture and copy that certain sound, but the original just can't be matched, let alone beaten.;)

[dennis_coffey]

The first day I worked at Mowest when I moved to LA was interesting. I got a call from their music contractor Ben Barrett. He wanted me to do a session for Motown at 10:00am in the morning. When I got there, I was the only Funk Brother. Mowest had a tracking studio on the first floor and an overdub studio on the second floor. I did tracking dates and then went upstairs and did overdubs. I did not get home until 4:00am the next day. That was a long session. Motown also paid me union scale and a half. The west coast guys were good but they were not like the Funks. I missed that gritty Detroit sound. I also did sessions for everyone from Quincy Jones to Tom Jones to Ringo Starr. The Funk Brothers created The Motown Sound. Berry Gordy told me he could not have started Motown in any other city but Detroit because of the talent that was here. The LA players had their own sound. I was doing 18 sessions a week in LA and in Detroit. The rest of the Funk Brothers were signed to Motown on salaries and were forbidden to do outside sessions. One day Harry Balk called me into his office in Detroit and told me Motown didn't want me working for HDH. I told him he was confusing me with the other Funk Brothers on salary. I told him I was a free agent and could work with anyone. He told me Motown wouldn't call me anymore. I said fine and walked out. Within two weeks I was back at Motown doing sessions everyday and no one said anything else about it. There is still a lot of talent here in Detroit but no Berry Gordy which makes it harder to make a living. When Motown was here it created a ripple effect and a lot of non Motown producers got production deals and a lot of musicians got session work. Mike Theodore and I did a lot of sessions here in Detroit thanks to Clarence Avant of Sussex and Armen Boladian of Westbound. We did a lot of sessions at Tera Shirma Studios and Ralph gave us an office and keys to the studio. Mike and I were on the midnight shift and learned how to produce there. Times were good for everyone back then.

[detmotownguy]

Wow, thanks for the firsthand history lesson! Much appreciated.

[ralpht]

Thomas,
Russ spent about three years in Detroit[[post Tera Shirma) and close to twenty in L.A.

[Philles/Motown Gary]

The first day I worked at Mowest when I moved to LA was interesting. I got a call from their music contractor Ben Barrett. He wanted me to do a session for Motown at 10:00am in the morning. When I got there, I was the only Funk Brother. Mowest had a tracking studio on the first floor and an overdub studio on the second floor. I did tracking dates and then went upstairs and did overdubs. I did not get home until 4:00am the next day. That was a long session. Motown also paid me union scale and a half. The west coast guys were good but they were not like the Funks. I missed that gritty Detroit sound. I also did sessions for everyone from Quincy Jones to Tom Jones to Ringo Starr. The Funk Brothers created The Motown Sound. Berry Gordy told me he could not have started Motown in any other city but Detroit because of the talent that was here. The LA players had their own sound. I was doing 18 sessions a week in LA and in Detroit. The rest of the Funk Brothers were signed to Motown on salaries and were forbidden to do outside sessions. One day Harry Balk called me into his office in Detroit and told me Motown didn't want me working for HDH. I told him he was confusing me with the other Funk Brothers on salary. I told him I was a free agent and could work with anyone. He told me Motown wouldn't call me anymore. I said fine and walked out. Within two weeks I was back at Motown doing sessions everyday and no one said anything else about it. There is still a lot of talent here in Detroit but no Berry Gordy which makes it harder to make a living. When Motown was here it created a ripple effect and a lot of non Motown producers got production deals and a lot of musicians got session work. Mike Theodore and I did a lot of sessions here in Detroit thanks to Clarence Avant of Sussex and Armen Boladian of Westbound. We did a lot of sessions at Tera Shirma Studios and Ralph gave us an office and keys to the studio. Mike and I were on the midnight shift and learned how to produce there. Times were good for everyone back then.
Very interesting, Dennis. Have you ever considered writing a book about your years working at Motown?

[westgrandboulevard]

Check out "Guitars, Bars and Motown Superstars".....;)

[theboyfromxtown]

Both editions.......

[Philles/Motown Gary]

Check out "Guitars, Bars and Motown Superstars".....;)

Hey, thanks, westgrandboulevard. Thanks to you and Amazon, my copy of Dennis Coffey's book is on its way! - Gary

[westgrandboulevard]

You're very welcome, Gary.

Theboyfromxtown is quite right. Let us know which edition you get. You may then want to get the 'other one' as well. One for each hand....:)

Any extra information, just ask theboyfromxtown......LOL

[theboyfromxtown]

You're very welcome, Gary.

Theboyfromxtown is quite right. Let us know which edition you get. You may then want to get the 'other one' as well. One for each hand....:)

Any extra information, just ask theboyfromxtown......LOL


Ask Dennis to sign it.....

[Philles/Motown Gary]

Both editions.......

I just ordered the paperback version, which is most likely the 2nd edition. If the two editions are different, wouldn't the 2nd edition be the equivalent of the 1st edition plus an additional chapter[[s) of updated info. [[like Mary Wilson's 3rd book)? I mean, I don't need both editions, do I?

[Philles/Motown Gary]

Ask Dennis to sign it.....

That would be great, but how could Dennis sign it? It's coming directly from Amazon.

[theboyfromxtown]

Probably not....but at my age, I like to support my heritage.

If I recall correctly, there might even be 3 versions.... lol

[theboyfromxtown]

That would be great, but how could Dennis sign it? It's coming directly from Amazon.

Now I have to confess I don't know how that can be achieved. WGB is normally the one with the clever ideas. LOL

Dennis did a book signing when he was performing in the UK.

[westgrandboulevard]

Gary, maybe Dennis will respond to you next time he reads this thread.

Maybe he will know of a way to help you.

If not, he'll surely be pleased to know you've ordered a copy of his book.