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View Full Version : Andantes - The Secret Ingredient to Motown’s Rise to Prominence During the Sixties


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milven
01-14-2015, 09:29 AM
By Larvester Gaither
January 14th 2015

On 12 January 1959, Berry Gordy, Jr. founded Tamla Records in Detroit, Michigan. A year later it would be incorporated with a new name that became synonymous with a sound, style, and generation of music: Motown. All this week we’re looking the great artists and tracks that emerged from those recording studios. Previously, we spoke to Charles Randolph-Wright, the Director of Broadway’s Motown the Musical, which closes on Sunday, 18 January 2015; Larvester Gaither examined the role of Duets in Motown. The Marvalettes, a girl group consisting of Gladys Horton, Katherine Anderson, Georgeanna Tillman, Juanita Cowart and Wanda Young, recorded Motown’s first number one pop hit, “Please Mr. Postman.” The upbeat song topped both the pop and R&B charts, making the Marvalettes one of the first all-girl groups in the industry to achieve such a feat. Thus, from its beginning, women would play a pivotal role in shaping Motown’s collective yet multifaceted identity. No less than 60% of the top 100 singles released by girl groups during the sixties emanated from Hitsville, U.S.A., as Motown came to be known. Even with the monumental success of its male artists who comprised roughly 60% of the label’s talent during this period, the same could not be said. One of Motown’s key ingredients for success was the collaborative effort Gordy managed to convey to his organization’s artists, musicians, writers, producers and singers. In this regard, girl group The Andantes was the secret ingredient to Motown’s rise to prominence during the sixties. Comprised of Detroit natives Jackie Hicks, Marlene Barrow and Louvain Demps, the versatile and multitalented session group provided background vocals for nearly 80 percent of the hit records produced by Motown during the sixties. Five songs including them as background vocals topped the Billboard’s popular music chart: Mary Well’s “My Guy,” Four Top’s “Reach Out I’ll Be There” and “I Can’t Help Myself [[Sugar Pie Honey Bunch),” Diana Ross & The Supremes’ “Love Child” and “Someday We’ll be Together.” No doubt, many of the acts during the first half of the sixties decade benefitted from the highly acclaimed production team consisting of Lamont Dozier and brothers Brian and Eddie Holland, and a talented group of musicians nicknamed The Funk Brothers. Yet, a cursory listen to tunes created by the Holland-Dozier-Holland team reveals how heavily they relied upon the Andantes. In fact, they were featured on literally all of the Four Top’s hit singles. In addition to singing background vocals, Barrow sometimes stood in for Florence Ballard of The Supremes during concerts and between 1968–69, substituted for Mary Wilson and Cindy Birdsong on the Supremes’ recordings. From 1965–67, the Andantes replaced the Marvalettes in the studio; the group’s final album The Return of the Marvalettes could have been titled Wanda Young and the Andantes, as Young was the only remaining original member of The Marvalettes. The Andantes dissolved as a group once Gordy relocated the company to Los Angeles in 1972, but they could be heard by a new generation as late as 2002 on rap musician Jay Z’s album, Blueprint 2: The Gift and the Curse, as he sampled “The Marvalettes” cover of Smokey Robinson’s “All of Me” on the single “Poppin Tags.” The Marvalettes The Marvalettes’ “Please Mr. Postman” remains a classic in popular culture. Early on, The Beatles, The Carpenters, and Diana Ross & The Supremes covered it; more recently, popular rap artist Lil Wayne sampled The Carpenters’ version on a track titled “Mr. Postman.” They are considered one of the top girl groups of all time and, to a large extent, rivaled Motown’s most successful group, The Supremes. Aside from being Motown’s first successful girl group, they actually wrote some of their earlier hits. For example, their second top 10 single, “Playboy,” was written by member Gladys Horton. However, The Marvalettes were reluctant to veer too far away from the R&B genre. When the Holland-Dozier-Holland team wrote “Where Did Our Love Go,” it was originally intended for them but was passed on to The Supremes because they were looking for a hit. The Supremes [[Diana Ross & The Supremes) was not only Motown’s most successful girl group but also one of the most popular groups of the twentieth century, at their height rivaling the Beatles. Diana Ross, Florence Ballard, and Mary Wilson were teenagers from Inkster, Michigan when they signed with Motown in 1961. Ironically, their rise to stardom was not as meteoric as previous Motown girl groups but eventually far exceeded the others in terms of commercial success and international acclaim. It would take three years for the group to make a dent in the industry. The first eight singles released by The Supremes were only moderately successful, just enough to keep the teenagers motivated; after all, they were signed with Detroit’s biggest record company and they could occasionally hear their songs playing on local radio stations. However only one of these singles, “When the Lovelight Starts Shining Through His Eyes,” reached higher than 75 on the Billboard Hot 100, peaking at 30. When the Holland-Dozier-Holland team presented the teens with a tune that had been turned down by The Marvalettes, they lacked such leverage and had no choice but to accept the challenge of turning what also appeared to them a childish song into a hit. Instead of the usual, intricate harmonic patterns Wilson and Ballard were growing accustomed to, with “Where Did Our Love Go,” the refrain was simply, “Baby Baby, Where did our love go?” and, thus, relied heavily Diana Ross’s stylistic interpretations of the song’s lyrics to make it meaningful. Released in 1964, the song’s success was also owed to the group’s superb stage presence. That summer, Motown’s Brenda Holloway had achieved success with “Every Little Bit Hurts” and radio and television personality Dick Clark was lining up acts for his Caravan of Stars. Clark seemed in awe of Holloway’s voice and approached Motown intent on including her as a headliner, but Gordy insisted that The Supremes be attached to the deal. Clark reluctantly agreed, yet during the tour The Supremes were billed simply as “and others.” Nevertheless, as they won over concert audiences around the country, the song steadily climbed the charts, eventually peaking at Billboard’s top spot. With the success of “Where Did Our Love Go,” The Supremes began touring abroad, and within a few months had achieved their second number one hit with “Baby Love.” “Baby Love,” topped charts in both the United States and Britain. Europe would quickly follow suit, making The Supremes’ an international phenomenon that would score unprecedented five consecutive number one hits. Altogether, 12 of their singles during the sixties topped the Billboard 100. Martha and the Vandellas, 1965. Gordy Records. Public domain via Wikimedia Commons. Martha and the Vandellas originally consisted of Rosalind Ashford, Annette Beard, and Gloria Williams. With Williams’s departure in 1962, Martha Reeves joined the group and became its lead singer. The group recorded all their singles for Motown’s Gordy imprint. Very talented singers, the group’s repertoire spanned rock, pop, blues, and R&B. Once signed in 1962, it didn’t take the Vandellas long to find success with Motown, as they were the first group to benefit from the Holland-Dozier-Holland production team. “Come and Get the Memories” peaked at 25 and 6 respectively on Billboard’s Hot 100 Pop and R&B charts. “Heat Wave,” a song about a women’s heated desire for a guy she’s in love with, climbed to number 4 on the pop chart and earned The Vandellas the distinction of becoming the first Motown group to be nominated for a Grammy. Their most popular song, however, was “Dancing in the Streets,” a song written by William “Mickey” Stevenson, Ivy Jo Hunter, and Marvin Gaye. The song’s principal writer, Stevenson, was inspired to write the song after witnessing people dancing in the streets of Detroit, often times opening fire hydrants to cool off. But while the song’s lyrics and up-tempo rhythms were meant to convey a feeling of optimism and fun-spiritedness—a song people could dance to—others believed the song was a call to riot. As cities burned that summer, “Dancing in the Streets” became a metaphor for riotous protest born of despair and indignation. The song would aptly capture the mood of youthful rebellion at the height of the Civil Rights movement, climbing to the second spot on the Billboard Pop chart and number 4 on UK’s pop chart, all the while becoming a fiery anthem for youth throughout the United States. The Velvelettes were formed in 1961 and its original members consisted of Bertha Barbee McNeal, Mildred Gill Arbor, Carolyn Gill, Norma Barbee, and Betty Kelly. Sandra Tilley joined the group in 1966 but left a year later to replace Rosalind Ashford of the Vandellas. Signed in 1962, the group recorded “There He Goes” and “That’s the Reason Why” in 1963. However, their breakthrough came in 1964 with the release of “Needle in A Haystack,” a single that reached 45 on Billboard’s Hot 100 that year. But by 1964, Motown was expending its focus on The Supremes. Nevertheless, the group continued to perform concerts during this period and recorded in the studio for Motown up until their final release “These Things Will Keep Me Loving You,” an R&B song that reached the top 50. The Supremes and Martha and the Vandellas also recorded some of The Velvelettes’ material during this period. The Velvelettes finally dissolved as group in 1967 but played a pivotal part in the overall scheme of Motown’s success between 1962-67. Though the girl group phenomenon of the 1960s faded, female musicians continued to be successful and influential at Motown and in music generally.

http://blog.oup.com/2015/01/motown-girl-groups/

carole cucumber
01-14-2015, 11:19 AM
Sheesh! OY!

kenneth
01-14-2015, 11:53 AM
The Marvalettes???

Seriously, I think the blogger fails to explain why the Andantes were so "key" to the success of Motown. He or she also fails to take the other side of the argument, that the distillation of more unique, if at times rough, background vocals to the smooth yet lacking distinction sound of the Andantes served as well to change the "Motown sound" into a more homogenous sameness which just as well could be argued that it hastened Motown's end of dominating the charts during the same time period.

I guess it's good there's interest in these subjects but there's little to offer in the way of a case being made for the premise of the article from what I read.

jobeterob
01-14-2015, 01:48 PM
He also says the Andantes were background vocals on Someday We'll Be Together. They might have been there a little bit but generally I believe that is credited to the Waters sister and Julia Tillman, was it?

But it is a blog ~ so what do you expect along with some odd usage of tenses.

While the Andantes were a huge part of the songs and while I do agree that perhaps they did not receive masses of recognition, you can just as easily make the argument that the background singers from the groups received less recognition than they should have, partly because in recent years, it has been made clear that they often didn't record the songs.

I agree with Kenneth that when the group background singers weren't used, sometimes a bit of group distinction was removed as well although this could have been times were changing as well as the sounds and perhaps it was a Producers choice to change the sound.

marv2
01-14-2015, 02:01 PM
He also says the Andantes were background vocals on Someday We'll Be Together. They might have been there a little bit but generally I believe that is credited to the Waters sister and Julia Tillman, was it?



The backing vocals on that record were done by Maxine Waters, Julia Waters [[Tillman was Julia's last name when she later married), Merry Clayton and Johnny Bristol. The Andantes were not on that recording at all. It was done in LA and not Detroit.

Roberta75
01-14-2015, 02:50 PM
The Andantes deserve a ducumentory-movie about them as theyre another great example of Motowns unsung heroes and real important in the sound of Motown imo.

Fondly,

Roberta

jobeterob
01-14-2015, 05:55 PM
They would be great for an Unsung.

They were part of the family.

marv2
01-14-2015, 06:16 PM
They would be great for an Unsung.

They were part of the family.

They can't do no Unsung on the Andantes! what are they going to show? LOL!!!!

marv2
01-14-2015, 06:23 PM
The Marvalettes???

Seriously, I think the blogger fails to explain why the Andantes were so "key" to the success of Motown. He or she also fails to take the other side of the argument, that the distillation of more unique, if at times rough, background vocals to the smooth yet lacking distinction sound of the Andantes served as well to change the "Motown sound" into a more homogenous sameness which just as well could be argued that it hastened Motown's end of dominating the charts during the same time period.

I guess it's good there's interest in these subjects but there's little to offer in the way of a case being made for the premise of the article from what I read.

He says that Mary Wilson, Florence Ballard and Diane Ross were from Inkster....... they were not.

skooldem1
01-14-2015, 06:34 PM
They most definitely are unsung and deserve a show. They could show plenty. They could show stock footage of Motown. Interviews with people or artist who worked at Motown. There would of course be interviews with the Andantes. They could even show clips of The Four Tops performing. They could even show Mary, Cindy, Flo and the Marvelettes lip syncing to their voices. The Andantes are truly unsung and this would be the perfect show for them.

jobeterob
01-14-2015, 06:38 PM
I think there are some hurt feelings amongst the rabid fans regarding the Andantes. But I don't think there are amongst the artists anymore.

But I do recall when we all started to hear that the Andantes were on record in place of Supremes Vandellas and Marvelettes ~ and it's kind of hurtful, probably initially to the artists when they found out and a shock to the fans.

But The Andantes definitely deserve an unsung. But then I've always felt that the background Vandellas and background Supremes deserve one too.

marv2
01-14-2015, 06:49 PM
They most definitely are unsung and deserve a show. They could show plenty. They could show stock footage of Motown. Interviews with people or artist who worked at Motown. There would of course be interviews with the Andantes. They could even show clips of The Four Tops performing. They could even show Mary, Cindy, Flo and the Marvelettes lip syncing to their voices. The Andantes are truly unsung and this would be the perfect show for them.


Good luck with that.

kenneth
01-14-2015, 07:11 PM
He says that Mary Wilson, Florence Ballard and Diane Ross were from Inkster....... they were not.

Oh geez...I love the story of when the Marvelettes met the Supremes and told them they were from Inkster, and Diane said, "Inkster? Where is Inkster?"

Philles/Motown Gary
01-15-2015, 05:14 AM
I love The Andantes. In fact, they’re my all-time favorite girl group. According to one of my many Motown books [[I can’t remember off-hand which one), the Motown producers all wanted The Andantes on their recordings because the girls made Motown productions sound great. It’s no wonder – their blend is instantly recognizable [[at least to my ears), and their classy harmonies were highly professional and almost operatic at times. [[A perfect example is their back-up vocals on Marvin Gaye & Kim Weston's "Heaven Sent You I Know" from their "Take Two" album.) It's Motown magic to a tee!

I didn’t realize until the 1980s that The Andantes sang back-up on nearly all of Motown’s recordings – including those by The Supremes, Martha & The Vandellas, and The Marvelettes. I was a bit surprised to learn this, but not at all shocked. In fact, I thought,
"A-ha! So THAT’s why Motown’s female back-up vocals always sound so consistently mature and notches above other record company’s female back-up vocalists!"

I, too, would love to see a documentary dedicated to The Andantes. They were every bit as important to Motown’s recorded legacy as the Funk Brothers. After all, The Andantes and the Funk Brothers were on nearly every Motown recording together. They deserve a hell of a lot more than a mere "honorable mention" in the closing credits of a Motown documentary.

detmotownguy
01-15-2015, 10:27 AM
I don't get it, how can an individual or a group of individuals that were never meant to be marketed/promoted to be stars be considered unsung. Weren't the Andantes designed primarily for in house background singers and not stardom or anything connected to being famous?

skooldem1
01-15-2015, 11:48 AM
Well everybody supported a documentary about the Funk Brothers.

kenneth
01-15-2015, 12:22 PM
I don't get it, how can an individual or a group of individuals that were never meant to be marketed/promoted to be stars be considered unsung. Weren't the Andantes designed primarily for in house background singers and not stardom or anything connected to being famous?

I think that very much fits the definition for "unsung." They were never promoted, heralded, spoken of in the press, marketed in any way. Just like a real hero who performs his feats of heroism silently and without any expectation of fame or notoriety, the background sings such as the Andantes or the others in "20 Feet from Stardom" certainly were unsung. I know they were talented and I'd like to know more about their back story. I just think they had the effect of "dumbing down" a lot of the records they were on when they were subbing for the real background singers. Motown achieved economic goals by saving money by not having to record the actual singers and saving time by having the backgrounds all "pre-canned," but to me that's how they sound for the most part, just canned.

jobeterob
01-15-2015, 01:27 PM
I've heard the line that the producers used who they thought made the record sound best. But I think for many of us, a distinctive sound got lost in the generic Andantes sound that emerged on most of the records later in the 60's.

I think the Andantes deserve and Unsung. But I also think, at least amongst the fans, Louvain in particular has been pretty effective at putting forward the Andantes story. It's not like they are unknown amongst the fans. And they are always going to face some displeasure or discomfort over the replacement of the Vandellas and the Marvelettes and Mary, Florence and Cindy even though they had little to do with it.

marv2
01-15-2015, 01:55 PM
Well everybody supported a documentary about the Funk Brothers.

Not everyone. Diana Ross and Stevie flat out refused to participate in the Standing in the Shadows of Love documentary on the Funk Bros. The director Paul Justman stated that they would not cooperated with the film.

skooldem1
01-15-2015, 02:27 PM
I was speaking of everyone here on this forum.

marv2
01-15-2015, 03:16 PM
I was speaking of everyone here on this forum.

Ok gotcha!

Philles/Motown Gary
01-15-2015, 05:53 PM
I don't get it, how can an individual or a group of individuals that were never meant to be marketed/promoted to be stars be considered unsung. Weren't the Andantes designed primarily for in house background singers and not stardom or anything connected to being famous?

Demotownguy, Berry didn't want to reveal the names of the Funk Brothers nor The Andantes on any of Motown's album musician credits because he knew that other record companies would snap them up in a second. Given that, neither the Funk Brothers nor The Andantes were meant to become famous back in the day. Together, however, they WERE The Motown Sound. To honor one and not the other is a slap in the face to The Andantes.

Philles/Motown Gary
01-15-2015, 06:09 PM
I think that very much fits the definition for "unsung." They were never promoted, heralded, spoken of in the press, marketed in any way. Just like a real hero who performs his feats of heroism silently and without any expectation of fame or notoriety, the background sings such as the Andantes or the others in "20 Feet from Stardom" certainly were unsung. I know they were talented and I'd like to know more about their back story. I just think they had the effect of "dumbing down" a lot of the records they were on when they were subbing for the real background singers. Motown achieved economic goals by saving money by not having to record the actual singers and saving time by having the backgrounds all "pre-canned," but to me that's how they sound for the most part, just canned.
Hey, Kenneth! I'm curious -- Did you feel that The Andantes' back-up vocals sounded "canned" back in the day when all of those great Motown records were tearing up the charts, or did you form that opinion years later when it was revealed that The Andantes' vocals replaced those of the back-up Supremes, Vandellas, and Marvelettes?

marv2
01-15-2015, 06:40 PM
Demotownguy, Berry didn't want to reveal the names of the Funk Brothers nor The Andantes on any of Motown's album musician credits because he knew that other record companies would snap them up in a second. Given that, neither the Funk Brothers nor The Andantes were meant to become famous back in the day. Together, however, they WERE The Motown Sound. To honor one and not the other is a slap in the face to The Andantes.

They were not soley the Motown Sound in my opinion. It took a whole host of people [[not least of all the artist themselves.....) to create "The Motown Sound". There were a LOT of Motown hit records that did not have the Andantes on them. I cannot say the same about the Funk Brothers!

marv2
01-15-2015, 06:43 PM
Hey, Kenneth! I'm curious -- Did you feel that The Andantes' back-up vocals sounded "canned" back in the day when all of those great Motown records were tearing up the charts, or did you form that opinion years later when it was revealed that The Andantes' vocals replaced those of the back-up Supremes, Vandellas, and Marvelettes?

I don't know about what Kenneth heard, but I noticed a blandness to many of those album tracks where the Andantes usurped the actual artists. They were best when they were used along side the artists to fatten up the background sound, but on their own...not so good results in my opinion. They were best for instance singing WITH the Four Tops.

jobeterob
01-15-2015, 07:30 PM
These opinions were vastly expanded in several minds when Mary Wilson was found not to be on so many songs.

I still laugh when I remember that I thought she was the male Johnny Bristol voice on Someday We'll Be Together. Silly wasn't I?

Right?

detmotownguy
01-15-2015, 07:35 PM
Hey Marv! Haven't talked to you in awhile, hope you had a good holiday. I guess this issue is kinda of touchy, but to me, so much of the music became sort of bland with the A's. But yeah they sounded good on the Tops. Maybe too much of formula and removed the originality of the original group members. The harmonizing of the Sups or identity of their individual voices can never be replicated. They were the best. [[just using Sups as an example). However, for the most part, we were/have been able to hear the actual group members sing their hits live. Oh well, just a diff opinion.

marv2
01-15-2015, 08:06 PM
These opinions were vastly expanded in several minds when Mary Wilson was found not to be on so many songs.

I still laugh when I remember that I thought she was the male Johnny Bristol voice on Someday We'll Be Together. Silly wasn't I?



Right?

No, "Silly Wasn't I" was a record by Valerie Simpson. Insanely weird in that you were probably the only one on Earth that assumed that Johnny Bristol was Mary Wilson? Geez! The handful of album tracks that Mary and Cindy were not on do not amount to anything! Mary Wilson sang on ALL of the Supremes hits before and after Diane left except for "Love Child" and "Someday We'll Be Together". The ONLY reason we know this is because Mary Wilson wrote it in her first book! No where else have we heard this bit of information so I don't know what you are on about?

marv2
01-15-2015, 08:09 PM
Hey Marv! Haven't talked to you in awhile, hope you had a good holiday. I guess this issue is kinda of touchy, but to me, so much of the music became sort of bland with the A's. But yeah they sounded good on the Tops. Maybe too much of formula and removed the originality of the original group members. The harmonizing of the Sups or identity of their individual voices can never be replicated. They were the best. [[just using Sups as an example). However, for the most part, we were/have been able to hear the actual group members sing their hits live. Oh well, just a diff opinion.

It was bland because even though the Andantes were good singers, they were used only as instrumentation or vocal enhancement in the background harmonies [[kinda hard for two women to create 3 or 4 part harmony would't you agree?). Later on, they were used as a quick and cheaper way of producing recordings many of which were not that important to begin but they needed to fill out an album's worth of material before they could release an album!

bradburger
01-15-2015, 08:30 PM
Despite what some say about the Andantes [[and the view of others that feel 'cheated' because the Supremes or whoever weren't on a particular track), there is no doubt that they were as important to Motown as the Funk Brothers, the main vocal artists, and and of course everyone else who was part of Motown's success.

They all played their part!

For me though, the Andantes added a certain colour, presence, and unique blend to the tracks that no one else could in my opinion. [[I'm always blown away by their harmonies at the end of 'What's Going On', and their seamless cohesion and matching with the Four Tops vocals).

As I said, I can never understand the view of those who feel 'cheated' because the Andantes did the background vocals on some of the Supremes, Vandellas, Marvelettes, and Velvelettes tracks.

It's simply the case of how Motown [[and other record companies) worked back then. After all, some of the tracks in question may well have had the background vocals in place already, with no particular artist in mind.

But if one of these tracks was then pulled off the shelf and assigned to say, one of aforementioned girl groups and it needed to be out 'Tomorrow' but only the lead singer was available, then it makes sense to leave the Andantes on it!

That said, in some cases, it might actually have been the preference of the producer/producers to leave, or include the Andantes on a track, because in their minds, they bought something to the song that the group members couldn't on their own.

At the end of the day, it's about getting the job done with minimum fuss and efficiency!

Going off topic slightly [[back to one of marv's posts), I think you'll find that whilst the vocals and other elements of SWBT may have been cut in L.A, the rhythm track was cut in Detroit with the Funks. [[I'm sure the strings were too!)

Cheers

Paul

detmotownguy
01-15-2015, 08:36 PM
Yes Marv I agree abt your harmony comment.

marv2
01-15-2015, 08:53 PM
Despite what some say about the Andantes [[and the view of others that feel 'cheated' because the Supremes or whoever weren't on a particular track), there is no doubt that they were as important to Motown as the Funk Brothers, the main vocal artists, and and of course everyone else who was part of Motown's success.

They all played their part!

For me though, the Andantes added a certain colour, presence, and unique blend to the tracks that no one else could in my opinion. [[I'm always blown away by their harmonies at the end of 'What's Going On', and their seamless cohesion and matching with the Four Tops vocals).

As I said, I can never understand the view of those who feel 'cheated' because the Andantes did the background vocals on some of the Supremes, Vandellas, Marvelettes, and Velvelettes tracks.

It's simply the case of how Motown [[and other record companies) worked back then. After all, some of the tracks in question may well have had the background vocals in place already, with no particular artist in mind.

But if one of these tracks was then pulled off the shelf and assigned to say, one of aforementioned girl groups and it needed to be out 'Tomorrow' but only the lead singer was available, then it makes sense to leave the Andantes on it!

That said, in some cases, it might actually have been the preference of the producer/producers to leave, or include the Andantes on a track, because in their minds, they bought something to the song that the group members couldn't on their own.

At the end of the day, it's about getting the job done with minimum fuss and efficiency!

Going off topic slightly [[back to one of marv's posts), I think you'll find that whilst the vocals and other elements of SWBT may have been cut in L.A, the rhythm track was cut in Detroit with the Funks. [[I'm sure the strings were too!)

Cheers

Paul

Paul great post. I can't disagree with anything you said in that you mirror most of my thoughts and feelings on this subject. Now regarding "Someday We'll Be Together" Johnny Bristol has said that the vocals were done in a LA studio and that he had every intention of using Mary Wilson and Cindy Birdsong on the record. He couldn't remember why that didn't happen. Cindy Birdsong has said that the studio time for Someday had been booked but there was a conflict in scheduling with the Supremes because they were on their way out of town the day of the session. I am supposing that the lead and backing vocals were recorded at separate sessions and the one with Diane being "coached" by Johnny Bristol had to have occurred at a different time. By that time it was assumed that the song would be Ross' first solo number.
"

marv2
01-15-2015, 08:55 PM
Yes Marv I agree abt your harmony comment.

People always ignore that part. That is why Frank Wilson often had Jean Terrell sing in the background with Mary and Cindy to create a fuller background and to achieve 3 part harmonies in certain instances.

Philles/Motown Gary
01-15-2015, 09:28 PM
They were not soley the Motown Sound in my opinion. It took a whole host of people [[least of all the artist themselves.....) to create "The Motown Sound". There were a LOT of Motown hit records that did not have the Andantes on them. I cannot say the same about the Funk Brothers!
Marv, of course what you're saying is absolutely correct in general as far as what went on behind the scenes in the making of a Motown record. That goes without saying. Motown's songwriters, arrangers, producers, recording engineers, mixing engineers, etc., were top-notch all the way, and they were all equally-responsible components in the creative process of establishing The Motown Sound. When I said that the Funk Brothers and The Andantes ARE/WERE "The Motown Sound", I was referring to the execution [[actual performance) of all of the above elements that we heard on the radio that made us run out and buy those super recordings in the first place. That's why I feel that The Andantes should receive equal accolades as The Funk Brothers.

marv2
01-15-2015, 09:59 PM
Marv, of course what you're saying is absolutely correct in general as far as what went on behind the scenes in the making of a Motown record. That goes without saying. Motown's songwriters, arrangers, producers, recording engineers, mixing engineers, etc., were top-notch, and they were all equally-responsible components in the creative process of establishing The Motown Sound. When I said that the Funk Brothers and The Andantes ARE/WERE "The Motown Sound", I was referring to the execution [[actual performance) of all of the above elements that we heard on the radio that made us run out and buy those super recordings.

Ok fair question. I was a kid when the first big Motown now classic releases were new and on the radio. I loved them like everyone else. As time went on into the latter part of the sixties, the music became harder edged in some instances, while bland in others. I will use the Supremes as an example since they seem to be the most popular act around here. When they released songs like "I'm Living in Shame", other than Diane's voice, it did not sound like the Supremes. It sounded like a bunch of ladies from church to me as a kid! The background vocals had no soul, no uniqueness to them. Same thing with records like "Some Things You Never Get Use To". You see by then we had gotten use to Florence Ballards and Mary Wilson's voices on the records and knew that something did not sound right. I had known at least since 1986, 28 years already that the Andantes were used on some records. What is happening here is the records they were on or sang along with artists is being overblown! I know for a fact that there are a couple of members here that will say anything in attempts to lessen the importance of specifically Mary Wilson and Florence Ballard on some of Motown's greatest hits and I can't just watch them spread misinformation when I know the truth. It's that simple.

kenneth
01-15-2015, 10:56 PM
Hey, Kenneth! I'm curious -- Did you feel that The Andantes' back-up vocals sounded "canned" back in the day when all of those great Motown records were tearing up the charts, or did you form that opinion years later when it was revealed that The Andantes' vocals replaced those of the back-up Supremes, Vandellas, and Marvelettes?

Fair question. Of course at the time I had no idea and would have never guessed I wasn't hearing the Supremes, Vandellas, Marvelettes in the backgrounds. I will say that even back then I thought the records were getting more and more "antiseptic" sounding and I think that the backgrounds had much to do with that. To me, Motown seemed to be losing its Soul sound. In its effort to cross over to the mainstream, it seemed to leave behind what made it so great in the first place. When I think of the truly great Motown records, I'm usually thinking of stuff 1965-66 and before.

Roberta75
01-16-2015, 12:20 AM
Ok fair question. I was a kid when the first big Motown now classic releases were new and on the radio. I loved them like everyone else. As time went on into the latter part of the sixties, the music became harder edged in some instances, while bland in others. I will use the Supremes as an example since they seem to be the most popular act around here. When they released songs like "I'm Living in Shame", other than Diane's voice, it did not sound like the Supremes. It sounded like a bunch of ladies from church to me as a kid! The background vocals had no soul, no uniqueness to them. Same thing with records like "Some Things You Never Get Use To". You see by then we had gotten use to Florence Ballards and Mary Wilson's voices on the records and knew that something did not sound right. I had known at least since 1986, 28 years already that the Andantes were used on some records. What is happening here is the records they were on or sang along with artists is being overblown! I know for a fact that there are a couple of members here that will say anything in attempts to lessen the importance of specifically Mary Wilson and Florence Ballard on some of Motown's greatest hits and I can't just watch them spread misinformation when I know the truth. It's that simple.

But dont you spread misinformations also say anything to attempt to lessen the importance of specifically Diane Ross?

marv2
01-16-2015, 03:41 AM
But dont you spread misinformations also say anything to attempt to lessen the importance of specifically Diane Ross?

Give me some examples.

jobeterob
01-16-2015, 01:40 PM
Fair question. Of course at the time I had no idea and would have never guessed I wasn't hearing the Supremes, Vandellas, Marvelettes in the backgrounds. I will say that even back then I thought the records were getting more and more "antiseptic" sounding and I think that the backgrounds had much to do with that. To me, Motown seemed to be losing its Soul sound. In its effort to cross over to the mainstream, it seemed to leave behind what made it so great in the first place. When I think of the truly great Motown records, I'm usually thinking of stuff 1965-66 and before.

This is how I feel as well.

But I think that Motowns best years in sales occurred in the years 1968 to 1970. As I recall, Motown had 16 of the Top 100 singles of the year in 1970.

And at Christmas 1968, it had 5 of the Top 10 and two of their biggest sellers of all time in Marvin's Grapevine and Diana's Love Child.

And the Temptations really started to sell in that era with I Can't Get Next to You and Cloud Nine and the albums.

And Diana had Mountain in 1970 and that was the year in which the Supremes still managed to fire out a few hits.

kenneth
01-16-2015, 02:01 PM
@Jobeterob, I agree with you as far as the albums, but not the singles. I think 1970 was my favorite year in terms of Motown albums. I still remember going to Korvette's - a discount store - and every year the Motown Xmas releases would all come out the same weeks and be heavily promoted. I remember 1970 all the great albums that came out including - to my great surprise and pleasure - "Return of the Marvelettes". Along with that, there was "New Ways But Love Stays," "The Magnificent 7," "Natural Resources," "Psychedelic Shack," "Everything is Everything," "What Love Has Joined Together," "Stevie Wonder Live," "A Gass...." and so many other great albums. So I think the albums were really fully developed "albums" by that time instead of single collections. But I still think the greatest singles came earlier and the ones at least I identify most with "The Motown Sound."

Roberta75
01-16-2015, 02:20 PM
Give me some examples.

Dont really need to sweetie it's all in the archives.

have a real nice Friday.

Fondly,

Roberta

jobeterob
01-16-2015, 02:55 PM
@Jobeterob, I agree with you as far as the albums, but not the singles. I think 1970 was my favorite year in terms of Motown albums. I still remember going to Korvette's - a discount store - and every year the Motown Xmas releases would all come out the same weeks and be heavily promoted. I remember 1970 all the great albums that came out including - to my great surprise and pleasure - "Return of the Marvelettes". Along with that, there was "New Ways But Love Stays," "The Magnificent 7," "Natural Resources," "Psychedelic Shack," "Everything is Everything," "What Love Has Joined Together," "Stevie Wonder Live," "A Gass...." and so many other great albums. So I think the albums were really fully developed "albums" by that time instead of single collections. But I still think the greatest singles came earlier and the ones at least I identify most with "The Motown Sound."

As someone once said "I remember 'em too"! [[The lady yelling out from the Crowd on An Evening With Diana Ross ~ haven't heard it for years)!

marv2
01-16-2015, 03:22 PM
Dont really need to sweetie it's all in the archives.

have a real nice Friday.

Fondly,

Roberta


I didn't think you could........

Roberta75
01-16-2015, 03:33 PM
I didn't think you could........


Hugs. :eek::cool::eek:

roberta

sansradio
01-16-2015, 05:04 PM
As someone once said "I remember 'em too"! [[The lady yelling out from the Crowd on An Evening With Diana Ross ~ haven't heard it for years)!

"OOOH, yes!!!" ;)

detmotownguy
01-16-2015, 08:40 PM
At least he called you sweetie Marv!

Roberta75
01-16-2015, 08:46 PM
At least he called you sweetie Marv!

Im a she my dear and R,alph called for civility around this here forum sweetie so maybe you shouldnt be stirring the pot.

Roberta

detmotownguy
01-16-2015, 08:47 PM
Kenneth:
Wasn't the price of an album at Korvettes something like $3.33? I remember making my dad take me after church on Sunday because that is when the albums usually went on sale. Another boon was to wait a while and go to Spartan Atlantic on Michigan Ave in Dearborn and get them for a buck. They used to have tons of Diana's albums deeply discounted abt a year after the original release. Those were the days!

jobeterob
01-16-2015, 08:54 PM
Kenneth:
Wasn't the price of an album at Korvettes something like $3.33? I remember making my dad take me after church on Sunday because that is when the albums usually went on sale. Another boon was to wait a while and go to Spartan Atlantic on Michigan Ave in Dearborn and get them for a buck. They used to have tons of Diana's albums deeply discounted abt a year after the original release. Those were the days!

Again, I remember em too.

Also, Roberta is definitely a Ms. She's on Facebook, real identity and all.

She's just a strong lady that tells it like it is and like Diana, did it at a time when it wasn't popular and continues to do so.

Go Roberta, don't pass up this chance..........

kenneth
01-16-2015, 10:36 PM
Kenneth:
Wasn't the price of an album at Korvettes something like $3.33? I remember making my dad take me after church on Sunday because that is when the albums usually went on sale. Another boon was to wait a while and go to Spartan Atlantic on Michigan Ave in Dearborn and get them for a buck. They used to have tons of Diana's albums deeply discounted abt a year after the original release. Those were the days!

I don't remember how much the LPs were on sale. I have some from that era that I bought when I worked at Federal's [[remember them?) and the price tag says "List Price - $4.98 - Our Price - $3.67" or something like that, so I think $3.33 is right in the ball park. I think you are probably right on.

I do remember always scouring the Sunday ads for the new sales at Korvette's as well!

My favorite store though for record bargain finds was Arlan's. I bought most of my back catalog Motown collection there, everything from "Please Mr. Postman" to lots of other early titles. The records in the cut out bins were 88 cents! I always wondered why I could never find "Breaking Through" by the 4 Tops after seeing it pictured on one of the early inserts!

Yes, great memories!

LuvHangOva
01-17-2015, 01:01 PM
As someone once said "I remember 'em too"! [[The lady yelling out from the Crowd on An Evening With Diana Ross ~ haven't heard it for years)!

"You're alright Miss Ross!!!!!" [[applause)

[[D.R.) Where you been all my life???

supremester
01-17-2015, 07:34 PM
I can! Roberta is too kind and gentle of a spirit to allow herself to wallow in the mud, but, I haven't showered in weeks anyway, so......

You are throwing shade to Miss Ross right in this thread by saying she was "coached" during Someday. She was not. She was ALSO not in the mood to record that day and with the crap Johnny Bristol was doing on her, I don't blame her. So, wanting to get a take on a rare session with Miss Ross, he tried to get her into the mood by singing with her. These are his words, btw. It's a slight distinction to be sure, but it IS your standard M.O. Ever heard of YOUTUBE, MWOS? You've said she's broke numerous times [[lost all her money in hedge funds LOL - good one) plays bad venues, lives off The Supremes' name, is washed up.......sound familiar)
Speaking of Someday, I believe your info is all incrrect and would like to see the source. The source of my info is a personal interview I have on tape. Someday was not intended for anyone but Jr Walker. The track was cut for him. When Berry heard the demo, he knew what Ross could do with it and offered her to JB on it with the incentive that if it worked, it could easily be the debut solo single- JB jumped at the chance. Literally EVERYONE at Motown wanted to work with her and he had very limited access to her, so this was BIG for him as he KNEW that Ross' debut single would hit big "cuz Gordy would see to it." The session started out "rough' - she just simply didn't want to be there, but was getting into the track eventually and he didn't try to push her at all, just tried to help her feel the rhythm and groove by singing it with her. "Once she got into it, it was gold and we were both feeling it." The finished track was brought to BG who anounced it was going to be Ross' debut single [[at that point.) It had everything he wanted in it and was a definite #1. THEN, "The Weight" failed miserably and there was no interest in the tracks on "Together." Had The Weight hit big, that would have been the last DR&TS single and Someday would probably have been released Jan 15 1970. DR&TS schedule was kept tentative for the last 6 months of '69 presumably waiting for a hit, so The Frontier gig was hopefully going to be the finale. Then it was decided that both acts needed to go out on top no matter what, and Someday, already finished to perfection, would hopefully be the final DR&TS single. I don't know how Ross felt about this, but JB was not happy at all. He thought it was over for DR&TS and his first shot at a #1 was ruined. When it went platinum, he thought he had a lock on Ross, but nothing he brought to the table was accepted after that. Not once was Mary & Cindy mentioned and, frankly, not once have I heard a Mary/Cindy bg vocal that comes close to the bg on Someday - it would have been madness to use them. I do not believe, at all, it was ever, ever considered. Mary had the pipes, Cindy did not. That's why The Andantes are on all JMC/JML albums and many of the singles. Also, I believe, on a JMC vocal or two on TV.




I didn't think you could........

Roberta75
01-17-2015, 10:05 PM
I can! Roberta is too kind and gentle of a spirit to allow herself to wallow in the mud, but, I haven't showered in weeks anyway, so......

You are throwing shade to Miss Ross right in this thread by saying she was "coached" during Someday. She was not. She was ALSO not in the mood to record that day and with the crap Johnny Bristol was doing on her, I don't blame her. So, wanting to get a take on a rare session with Miss Ross, he tried to get her into the mood by singing with her. These are his words, btw. It's a slight distinction to be sure, but it IS your standard M.O. Ever heard of YOUTUBE, MWOS? You've said she's broke numerous times [[lost all her money in hedge funds LOL - good one) plays bad venues, lives off The Supremes' name, is washed up.......sound familiar)
Speaking of Someday, I believe your info is all incrrect and would like to see the source. The source of my info is a personal interview I have on tape. Someday was not intended for anyone but Jr Walker. The track was cut for him. When Berry heard the demo, he knew what Ross could do with it and offered her to JB on it with the incentive that if it worked, it could easily be the debut solo single- JB jumped at the chance. Literally EVERYONE at Motown wanted to work with her and he had very limited access to her, so this was BIG for him as he KNEW that Ross' debut single would hit big "cuz Gordy would see to it." The session started out "rough' - she just simply didn't want to be there, but was getting into the track eventually and he didn't try to push her at all, just tried to help her feel the rhythm and groove by singing it with her. "Once she got into it, it was gold and we were both feeling it." The finished track was brought to BG who anounced it was going to be Ross' debut single [[at that point.) It had everything he wanted in it and was a definite #1. THEN, "The Weight" failed miserably and there was no interest in the tracks on "Together." Had The Weight hit big, that would have been the last DR&TS single and Someday would probably have been released Jan 15 1970. DR&TS schedule was kept tentative for the last 6 months of '69 presumably waiting for a hit, so The Frontier gig was hopefully going to be the finale. Then it was decided that both acts needed to go out on top no matter what, and Someday, already finished to perfection, would hopefully be the final DR&TS single. I don't know how Ross felt about this, but JB was not happy at all. He thought it was over for DR&TS and his first shot at a #1 was ruined. When it went platinum, he thought he had a lock on Ross, but nothing he brought to the table was accepted after that. Not once was Mary & Cindy mentioned and, frankly, not once have I heard a Mary/Cindy bg vocal that comes close to the bg on Someday - it would have been madness to use them. I do not believe, at all, it was ever, ever considered. Mary had the pipes, Cindy did not. That's why The Andantes are on all JMC/JML albums and many of the singles. Also, I believe, on a JMC vocal or two on TV.

Oh you dont have to defend me dear. Im a grown woman and can sure handle him. Besides most in this here forum know what he say about Diane Ross here and else where.

thank you dear.

Fondly.

Roberta

supremester
01-20-2015, 02:01 AM
You said it!