Michael from Motown to Epic

[marybrewster]

nomis' thread on Motown 25 made me think of this:

What year did Michael leave Motown? Wasn't it early 1981/1982? I wonder how much Motown would have benefitted had it been the label to release "Thriller", which went on to sell a bazillion copies, making it the best selling album of all time?

Is it possible that Michael COULD have released "Thriller" on Motown, meaning, I assume when he left the label, not only did he gain independence, but a lot of creative control. Would he have had that type of power at Motown?

I wonder what the powers that be at Motown [[at the time) thought of Michael's smashing success? Gone was the day of an artist leaving and having minimal success [[a la Mary Wells).

It seems like Motown let a lot of good artists slip through their hands [[Michael, Diana, Marvin). It goes to show that money talks!

[nomis]

Michael signed with his brothers to Epic in June 75 that deal included any future solo releases from Michael [[Walter Yetnikoff aint dumb he was playing hard ball with Berry..)

[nomis]

..the reason they left Motown besides the pitiful royalty rate was Berry said no to the brothers writing and producing their own material..you got to hand it to Joe,besides his miserable skills as a father he got a better deal for his sons at Epic..

[Kamasu_Jr]

Michael signed with his brothers to Epic in June 75 that deal included any future solo releases from Michael [[Walter Yetnikoff aint dumb he was playing hard ball with Berry..)

IThe Jacksons signed with Epic in 1975. I assume Michael was also signed to a solo deal, but did not deliver any solo recordings until later in the decade after the Jacksons had proved themselves capable as writers & producers with Destiny.
I'm sure MJ co-produced much of Off The Wwall, but he appears he was directed by Walter YetnikofF to find a producer in Quincy Jones.
Critics say Jones didn't do very much, because Michael had the basic ideas/tracks for many of his songs already done by the time he entered the studio. This was truly the case on Thriller.

[nomis]

...Micheal didnt have apparently much aspirations as a solo star at the time of the Epic signing..remember his solo career was a decision of Motowns,not his own..these where the years he felt secure around his brothers the disharmony only occured after Off the wall took off..he would have kept working with the brothers if they hadnt brought Don King into the Victory tour mess..once he was tarnished with ripping off children with the bulk ticket buying scam in the media MJ washed his hands of his brothers that was it.He gave one vocal track to the next jacksons LP and got on with dealing with success Thriller brought him..greed brought down the Jacksons as a singing group..greed

[Kamasu_Jr]

...Micheal didnt have apparently much aspirations as a solo star at the time of the Epic signing..remember his solo career was a decision of Motowns,not his own..these where the years he felt secure around his brothers the disharmony only occured after Off the wall took off..he would have kept working with the brothers if they hadnt brought Don King into the Victory tour mess..once he was tarnished with ripping off children with the bulk ticket buying scam in the media MJ washed his hands of his brothers that was it.He gave one vocal track to the next jacksons LP and got on with dealing with success Thriller brought him..greed brought down the Jacksons as a singing group..greed

So what exactly did Michael Jackson & Quincy Jones allegedly fall out about? Quincy did so-produce Bad, but the rest of the Eighties and Nineties found MJ working with other producers or producing everything himself.

Jones didn't attend Michael's funeral last year, saying he had prior a engagement or business in Europe & elsewhere and confiding that he was tired of attending funerals.

[soulster]

I'm sure MJ co-produced much of Off The Wwall, but he appears he was directed by Walter YetnikofF to find a producer in Quincy Jones.
Critics say Jones didn't do very much, because Michael had the basic ideas/tracks for many of his songs already done by the time he entered the studio. This was truly the case on Thriller.

If I remember correctly, The Epic bosses didn't want Michael to work with Quincy because they felt he was too jazzy, despite his work with the Brothers Johnson.

Oh, and BTW, Off The Wall and Thriller were true collaborations. As Producer, Quincy always had the final say on the creative end, Michael brought in the ideas, Rod Temperton fleshed them out, Quincy was the director, and Bruce Swedien was the architect. Michael had final say over the final product. The engineer mixed the albums alone without help.

[marybrewster]

Thanks you all for the good information.

I didn't realize Mike and Co. left Motown so early. They really weren't with the company as long as I thought. It's funny because I've always thought of them as Motown artists, when reality is, they were only there 5-6 years.

Wasn't Motown still releasing stuff on Michael well into the 80's? I seem to recall "Farewell My Summer Love" was in the 80's. That's one track you don't see included too often.

[Kamasu_Jr]

Thanks you all for the good information.

I didn't realize Mike and Co. left Motown so early. They really weren't with the company as long as I thought. It's funny because I've always thought of them as Motown artists, when reality is, they were only there 5-6 years.

Wasn't Motown still releasing stuff on Michael well into the 80's? I seem to recall "Farewell My Summer Love" was in the 80's. That's one track you don't see included too often.

Once hriller and Off the Wwall became these international smashes, Motown did release product it had in the vaults by Michael. I think some of the tracks were altered or musicians were brought in to make them sound fresher. If I'm not mistakened, there were several mixes of Farewell, My Summer Love, which had been recorded in the 1970s. There was an MJ album, One Day In Your Life because Motown was constantly trying to get airplay for the tune and turn it into a hit. I noticed last year when he died, writers tried to dismiss the Motown recordings as not being as important as Thriller. But I think Michael did some good work at Motown before he became the affected vocalist at Epic.

[nomis]

...the rift with Quincy was over several things - the first bone of contention was the track "Smooth Criminal" MJ loved the track,Jones didnt want it on the Bad album - Michael was adamant it be included,but what got on Mikes nerves was the press Quincy recieved for producing,That put the nail in the coffin..MJ thought he was recieving too much credit and didnt like the image of himself being beholden to Jones skills - he started telling associates that Quincy hadnt really done much in the studio and Micheal was the reason for the success of Bad and Thriller..this is when MJs ego started to go astray he was paranoid about his inner circle being celebrated in the press it was a sad case of its "me Me me!" - his level of fame affected his trust in the very inner circle that had guided him to his postion - Jones,Dileo,Yetnikoff,Branca and Mclain would all soon fall foul of his paranoia...

[midnightman]

The Jacksons left Motown in 1975 but court action between them and Motown went over for a year while the Jacksons were planning both shows in Las Vegas and a TV show that began airing in the summer of 1976. It was during that time that the group agreed to change their name to the Jacksons because Motown contended that the Jackson 5 name was sold to Motown prior to the group signing with Motown in 1969. I can kinda understand why folks think Michael stayed with Motown for a long time because Motown kept issuing his [[and his brothers') work after they left. When The Jacksons was released, Motown put out Joyful Jukebox Music. When Destiny became a hit, they put out Boogie [[on Natural Resources). When Off the Wall and Triumph became hits, Michael's One Day in Your Life was released and for some reason after it hit stations in the UK, it was fully promoted and became a hit there. Then after the successes of Thriller, Bad, Dangerous and HIStory, Motown kept issuing, re-issuing and re-releasing Jackson 5/solo Michael material. When Michael's London concert tickets sold out prior to his death, Motown announced his solo Hello World compilation.

[midnightman]

So what exactly did Michael Jackson & Quincy Jones allegedly fall out about? Quincy did so-produce Bad, but the rest of the Eighties and Nineties found MJ working with other producers or producing everything himself.

Jones didn't attend Michael's funeral last year, saying he had prior a engagement or business in Europe & elsewhere and confiding that he was tired of attending funerals.

Miscommunication occurred and Michael's confidence as a songwriter and composer meant little to no outside work was not allowed. That's why Rod Temperton wasn't called to provide the few songs he had done with Michael's previous material because at the end, Quincy understood that this was Michael's work. Ironically after that, Quincy's music career started to go down hill. Have you heard that mess of an album that he put out recently? Soul-Bossa Nostra? As much as Michael's music supposedly suffered after he and Quincy departed [[some say amicably, others say bitterly), Quincy's suffered the same fate, if not worse. That said, publicly the both of them still had love for each other:

http://www.haitianmusicindustry.com/members/hmi-albums-michael-jackson-life-photos-picture6051-remembering-michael-jackson.jpg

[soulster]

...the rift with Quincy was over several things - the first bone of contention was the track "Smooth Criminal" MJ loved the track,Jones didnt want it on the Bad album - Michael was adamant it be included,but what got on Mikes nerves was the press Quincy recieved for producing,That put the nail in the coffin..MJ thought he was recieving too much credit and didnt like the image of himself being beholden to Jones skills - he started telling associates that Quincy hadnt really done much in the studio and Micheal was the reason for the success of Bad and Thriller..this is when MJs ego started to go astray he was paranoid about his inner circle being celebrated in the press it was a sad case of its "me Me me!" - his level of fame affected his trust in the very inner circle that had guided him to his postion - Jones,Dileo,Yetnikoff,Branca and Mclain would all soon fall foul of his paranoia...


Bottom line, it was about Michael wanting producer credit.

[soulster]

Miscommunication occurred and Michael's confidence as a songwriter and composer meant little to no outside work was not allowed. That's why Rod Temperton wasn't called to provide the few songs he had done with Michael's previous material because at the end, Quincy understood that this was Michael's work. Ironically after that, Quincy's music career started to go down hill. Have you heard that mess of an album that he put out recently? Soul-Bossa Nostra? As much as Michael's music supposedly suffered after he and Quincy departed [[some say amicably, others say bitterly), Quincy's suffered the same fate, if not worse. That said, publicly the both of them still had love for each other:



Then I guess the Grammy Q won for "Back On The Block" means nothing...

[midnightman]

^ Well if you look at his recent interviews, the dude claims he didn't produce his latest "album" yet he claimed production on the others. ;)

The Grammys mean nothing nowadays anyways.

[soulster]

^ Well if you look at his recent interviews, the dude claims he didn't produce his latest "album" yet he claimed production on the others. ;)

The Grammys mean nothing nowadays anyways.

They means something back in the early 90s.

When Q says he didn't really 'produce", it means that he let the superstars on the record take control over the musical direction. Don't let him fool you, though, he's still in charge. Q just has a light touch. That's his style.

Now, what I thought was a mess was "Q's Juke Joint".

Ever since he did the "Stuff Like That" album from 1978, this has been his way of making records. Q is not a traditional producer who controls everything.

[midnightman]

^ That's why I find it odd that he's kinda trying to not take credit for his current debacle. He's trying to stay hip, which is sad for someone who had that much skill.

[soulster]

But, Q's always tried to stay hip. I must admit, I have not heard the new album.

[midnightman]

^ After what I heard I think it's best to avoid it. LOL He's got Akon and T-Pain on there. When I find the track listing I'll post it.

That's his problem, he's trying to be hip but in the wrong way lol then again so was Michael in his final years.

[nomis]

Micheal always stayed hip - he got Teddy Riley when he was white hot,Then R kelly...

[soulster]

Well, there's also the difference of staying hip because you are, and stying hip because you think you have to chase the young-'uns.

[midnightman]

I think in a way Michael never lost his edge. Least he didn't drift too far off course [[as "Hold My Hand" suggests) though I don't know why they're including the questionable "Monster" on his album [[with 50 Cent of all people...lol). But Quincy?

Michael fits more of the former as you stated, soulster, while Quincy is in the latter.

[nomis]

Michael is probably unique in that he always had a core young audience -usually fans grow up with their idols and they lose alot of their original fan base - Micheal was different - he kept getting a new young audience..it was the older music lovers who questioned some of his not so good life decisions - but to kids he could do no wrong...