Otis Redding & James Brown & The Motortown Revue in 1964

[jongould1]

Dear Soulful Detroit Members,

[Sorry for the duplicate post, but I realized I should have given my thread a more specific name]

My name is Jonathan Gould, and I'm a music historian and former musician who lives in Brooklyn, NY. For the last four years, I've been writing a biography of Otis Redding, which will be published by Random House next year. My book has been written with the cooperation of the Redding family, and it will be the first comprehensive biography of him ever published.

I'm writing in the hope that someone connected Soulful Detroit can provide me with good information about Otis's appearances with members of the Motortown Revue in 1964.

What I do know is that Otis appeared as a supporting act with the Miracles and the Temptations at the Howard Theater in D.C. in the week of March 11-18, 1964. My information is that Dionne Warwick and possibly King Curtis were also on that bill. I also know that Otis appeared at the Regal in Chicago in October 1964 with the Miracles, the Four Tops, Patti Labelle and the Bluebells, Bobby Freeman, and Flip Wilson.

What I'm most interested in confirming is the possibility that Otis appeared with members of the Motortown Revue on a tour headlined by James Brown sometime early in 1964. I know from Brown's autobiography that he toured with several Motown acts early in 1964; I'm interested in knowing which acts, where they performed, and whether Otis might have been included at any of those engagements.

Any help that Soulful Detroit members can provide would be most appreciated.

Thank you,

Jonathan Gould

[motony]

I saw the Marvelettes on the Otis Redding Show in Oct/Nov. of '66. Otis was the headliner.I don't remember Otis being on a show /tour with James Brown.

[StuBass1]

It's been mentioned that the head of Motown records was definitely not fond of Otis and a general disdain for Memphis Soul period. Urban legend or reality...perhaps your research can investigate this...

[rrussi]

I believe Otis Redding had a relationship with Mary Wells. There are posters displayed on the internet and at certain venues of the tour which Otis headlined with the Marvelettes co-starring. I am sure he and James Brown were on the same bill more than once and a lot of Motown acts worked with both of them as well. Your book sounds exciting! I look forward to it. It was such a tragedy to lose this great artist when his career was beginning to crossover here in America from R&B to pop. Funny story...some friends who were high school girls in 1965 saw the posters of Otis Redding at the R&B venue called Club 4-36 [[four thirty six), the highway on which it was located. This little area was an all-black community, but very close to the [[at that time) all-white high school. So these girls went to the back of the club that night and met Otis and got him to autograph their record albums. Someone called the police that three underage white girls were at the club; Otis helped them make their escape. You must remember this is Florida and part of the south so things were very segregated back then.

[Nothing But Soul]

I remember seeing a poster for a concert with Marvin Gaye and Otis Redding. As I recall, it was billed as kind of a north vs south competition. The date was in December 1967 and Otis died in a plane crash before the event actually happened. I have searched the internet to try and find an image of that poster, but so far I have been unsuccessful. Still, I'm positive that I did see such a poster.

[jongould1]

Thanks to you all for your responses. I have a feeling that Berry Gordy's supposed distain for Memphis soul is indeed a bit of myth. There's no question that the "roughness" that crept into some of Motown's releases, beginning in 1964 with the Four Tops, was a response to the increasing prominence of overtly gospel-influenced soul singers like Otis, Solomon Burke, and James Brown. Marvin Gaye once suggested that his singing on "Baby Don't You Do It" was influenced by Otis, and of course Marvin was always a bit obsessed with the masculinity he associated with singers like Otis, Levi Stubbs, and David Ruffin.

My main interest regarding Otis's interaction with Motown artists centers on 1964, since that was really the formative year for him: his first full year of touring widely and recording on a regular basis.

Regarding the 4-36 Club, I'm curious to know what Florida town that was in. Might that have been in August 65? [[Otis played all over Florida that month.)

[rrussi]

It may have well been, the club is now closed, but the building still stands. It is Altamonte Springs, Florida, which is a little north [[maybe only 8 or 9 miles) of Orlando. I do recall the very night that The Temptations were on TV's Shindig performing "My Girl", they were on a bill with Otis Redding at the Orlando Municipal Auditorium. No, I was not at the show, but did enjoy seeing the Temps on Shindig. I don't recall the other acts on the bill in Orlando that night. It was all R&B, of course.

[arr&bee]

I remember a show at the howard theatre years ago with otis redding and martha and the vandellas.

[midnightman]

I can believe it. The R&B world was real close-knit back in those days. Sure they were separated by regions [[west, east, north and south) but because of the climate back then, it wasn't hard to find two R&B artists from two different labels together on a tour. I don't know if JB ever had a Motown act as a supporting act or toured in a package tour besides the T.A.M.I. Awards show.

[jongould1]

Right you are. Otis headlining with Martha & The Vandellas and Dee Dee Warwick at the Howard Theater from August 27 to September 2, 1965.

[Nothing But Soul]

I can believe it. The R&B world was real close-knit back in those days. Sure they were separated by regions [[west, east, north and south) but because of the climate back then, it wasn't hard to find two R&B artists from two different labels together on a tour.

The Otis Redding song, "I've Been Loving You Too Long [[To Stop Now)" is the result of black artists from different regions touring together in the sixties. Otis, from the deep south, and Jerry Butler, from Chicago, were on a tour together when they collaborated on this song together in a hotel room in New York. Although he'd had regional hits, "I've Been Loving You Too Long" was the first national hit for Otis. Jerry Butler also helped Otis write another one of his songs, "Cigarettes and Coffee."

[jongould1]

Otis recorded "Cigarettes and Coffee" on The Soul Album in 1966, but the song was written in 1961 by Jerry Butler, Eddie Thomas [[who managed The Impressions at the time), and someone named Jay Walker. It was recorded that same year by a guy named Al Braggs for Don Robey's Peacock label

[jongould1]

I'm still wondering whether anyone who participates in this site might have good information about Motortown Revue tours and theater engagements in the first half of 1964 -- especially during the winter of that year, which is when Otis would have first appeared with them. Thanks!

[Nothing But Soul]

Otis recorded "Cigarettes and Coffee" on The Soul Album in 1966, but the song was written in 1961 by Jerry Butler, Eddie Thomas [[who managed The Impressions at the time), and someone named Jay Walker. It was recorded that same year by a guy named Al Braggs for Don Robey's Peacock label

Thanks for clearing that up, Jon. All these years I've been laboring under the impression that "Cigarettes and Coffee" was written for Otis. Still, Otis may have learned about the song from Jerry when the two of them were touring together.

[RossHolloway]

Thanks to you all for your responses. I have a feeling that Berry Gordy's supposed distain for Memphis soul is indeed a bit of myth. There's no question that the "roughness" that crept into some of Motown's releases, beginning in 1964 with the Four Tops, was a response to the increasing prominence of overtly gospel-influenced soul singers like Otis, Solomon Burke, and James Brown. Marvin Gaye once suggested that his singing on "Baby Don't You Do It" was influenced by Otis, and of course Marvin was always a bit obsessed with the masculinity he associated with singers like Otis, Levi Stubbs, and David Ruffin.

My main interest regarding Otis's interaction with Motown artists centers on 1964, since that was really the formative year for him: his first full year of touring widely and recording on a regular basis.

Regarding the 4-36 Club, I'm curious to know what Florida town that was in. Might that have been in August 65? [[Otis played all over Florida that month.)

The Four Tops were many things- but to mention the group and roughness in the same sentence is just wrong, wrong, wrong. There was nothing rough about the classic Motown sound, especially the music released in 1964.

[stalebagel]

Please check your private messages.

Thank you.

[jongould1]

Sounds as if you think "roughness" is a derogatory term. I certainly didn't mean it that way. What I meant is that, from 1963 onward, as gospel-trained singers like Solomon Burke and James Brown and Otis Redding gained greater popularity, and as Sam Cooke made a conscious effort to revisit his gospel roots, Berry Gordy started signing artists with more of a gospel "rasp," and his producers started encouraging artists like Marvin Gaye to play up that quality in their voices. [[Prior to that, to my ears at any rate, Martha Reeves was the only singer at Motown with a seriously "churchy" sound in her voice.) Brian and Eddie Holland have talked about how they pitched the Four Tops material at the very top of Levi Stubbs's vocal range in order to get that great sense of "strain" in his voice. That kind of roughness is a virtue in my book.

[RossHolloway]

Sounds as if you think "roughness" is a derogatory term. I certainly didn't mean it that way. What I meant is that, from 1963 onward, as gospel-trained singers like Solomon Burke and James Brown and Otis Redding gained greater popularity, and as Sam Cooke made a conscious effort to revisit his gospel roots, Berry Gordy started signing artists with more of a gospel "rasp," and his producers started encouraging artists like Marvin Gaye to play up that quality in their voices. [[Prior to that, to my ears at any rate, Martha Reeves was the only singer at Motown with a seriously "churchy" sound in her voice.) Brian and Eddie Holland have talked about how they pitched the Four Tops material at the very top of Levi Stubbs's vocal range in order to get that great sense of "strain" in his voice. That kind of roughness is a virtue in my book.
I didn't find the term "roughness" as derogatory as much as I found it "inartful". From reading your last post, I think you're meaning to equate "roughness" with "churchy", and I tend to think while there may be some overlap, the two descriptive words are not the same. If you're looking for early Motown act that had a roughness sound you can certainly look at acts like Barrett Strong, Sam Ward, Mable John or the Contours, or even Mary Wells first single release for Motown -Bye Bye Baby. I think it would be inartful to classify the Four Tops as either having a "roughess" or "churchy" sound to them. But that's just my opinion. I think there are several acts that came after 1964 that could be classified as either churchy or having a roughness to them: Jr. Walker & The Allstars, The Isley Brothers and Gladys Knight & The Pips. But I think those groups added to the roundness of the Motown Sound but I don't think they stood out as being overly churchy or rough - with the exception of Jr. Walker. As for Marvin Gaye, I think like all the other early signed acts, their sound and the Motown Sound evolved. It's fairly common knowledge that Marvin wanted to be a singer/entertainer more in line with Nat King Cole and alot of his early recording reflected that, but once he started having success on the charts with more of what became known as the Motown Sound, his career and recordings shifted to reflect that chart success. Sure he still recorded some MOR material, but most of his recordings shifted away from such and more towards Motown written material. And I definitely don't think Motown shifted towards a more "roughness" or "churchy" sound after 1964, I don't think anything could be further from the truth.

[rrussi]

Artists from many different labels and different parts of the country always toured together. Not just in R&B, but Rock & Roll and country too. Look at the Dick Clark tours. I saw a program from 1963 headlined by James Brown and including Marvin Gaye, Inez Foxx, Martha & the Vandellas, Major Lance, the Crystals, etc. I used to go to so many R&B package shows in the 1960s.