You Can't Hurry Love

[longtimefan]

On which CD is the "best"** version of "You Can't Hurry Love?"

** General sound quality; clarity of Mary and Florence; "richness" of instrumentation

[floyjoy678]

I always liked the original mono 45 of You Can't Hurry Love. Which can be found on The Complete Singles that was recently released. Mary and Florence's vocals are mixed a little down compared to other versions but I actually like it like that when it comes to this song.

[antceleb12]

I've always loved the 45 version. Not sure why. It might be because the horns come out really nicely on that mix. However, I also love the version on the "#1's" album because the background vocals are nice and audible. Although, I'm inclined to believe that it's Mary and Marlene - not Mary and Florence [[though I WANT to believe it's Mary and Flo).

[Crystaledwards]

I would have to say The Number One's.

CE

[soulster]

I don't know if I can give you the answer you want. Sound quality to me means how well the tapes were reproduced [[mastered) to the digital medium. Since master mixdown tapes are not perfect, and, really not completed works, they have to be tweaked a bit to bring out the best. So, whatever quality you're looking for has to be in the tapes first.

Now, having said that, you are talking about two things here: mono and stereo. The two cannot compare because they are two different mixes.

If you want the mono single mix, my vote goes to the Hitsville U.S.A. box or the 2-CD 1995 anthology, both mastered by Bill Inglot and Dan Hersch.
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If you want stereo, I can't give you any specific set, but for currently available CDs, try the 2001 Supremes anthology mastered by Suha Gur.
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Now: what are the differences between the mono single and the stereo mixes? On the mono single the bass cuts out during the first verse at letter A. The keyboard is also louder, as are the drums, vibes, harmonica, and guitars. The overall mix is drier. This is the mix all the effort went into.

On the stereo, the bass is constant, and the you can hear the EMT plates, and they sound harsh. Florence and Mary's vocals are a bit lower in the mix, too.

Ah, yes, there is the remix that was done about ten or so years ago. It's not the hit. It's not what you or I grew up with.

Hope this helps.

[soulster]

I've always loved the 45 version. Not sure why. It might be because the horns come out really nicely on that mix. Uh...there are no horns on that song!

[bradburger]

Uh...there are no horns on that song!

Indeed there are!

Very prominent at the start of the 45 mix! [[And I thought the 45 mix was your favourite!) ;)

I would say the 45 mix is the best mix, and would agree with soulster that the Inlgot/Hersch mastered 1995 Anthology, or the first Hitsville box set for the best mastering.

The No 1s' remix is not bad, and then of course there's the alternate vocal [[and unedited) remix that appeared on the 'Lost & Found Set'.

It's probably best if you can find samples, or the whole of these versions [[YouTube is probably your best bet), and make your mind up from there!

Cheers

Paul

[soulster]

Indeed there are!

Very prominent at the start of the 45 mix! [[And I thought the 45 mix was your favourite!) ;)

I don't consider one lousy note on the intro enough to say there are horns on the song. You probably disagree.

[bradburger]

I don't consider one lousy note on the intro enough to say there are horns on the song. You probably disagree.

[[Tongue firmly in cheek this time!)

I do, because they are on the whole tune, and on all the available mixes! :rolleyes: :confused:

The reason they sound so prominent on the 45 mix [[especially at the start), is that the guitar 'chank' that occurs at the same time on the multi-track [[and therefore the stereo L.P mix, and the subsequent remixes mentioned) was muted out, along with the fact they were mixed higher up, and dryer, giving them much more prominence and punch on the 45 mix.

Cheers

Paul

[soulster]

[[Tongue firmly in cheek this time!)

I do, because they are on the whole tune, and on all the available mixes! :rolleyes: :confused:

The reason they sound so prominent on the 45 mix [[especially at the start), is that the guitar 'chank' that occurs at the same time on the multi-track [[and therefore the stereo L.P mix, and the subsequent remixes mentioned) was muted out, along with the fact they were mixed higher up, and dryer, giving them much more prominence and punch on the 45 mix.

Cheers

Paul

I don't care what's on the multitrack. You just don't hear them on the final mixes except in that one spot...and the break at the start of the bridge. The final mixes are all I care about. What you are hearing throughout the song are the guitars, and H-D-H used a lot of guitars on one song.

[Sotosound]

That very short stab of brass in the intro is what sets up the song for me.

A question for me is whether or not those two very short stabs of horns make up the total of horn parts in the arrangement for the track or whether there's a whole load of horn riffs that we don't get to hear because, in the end, HDH decided that the horns were best largely left out.

[[They clearly made a "get rid of the horns" decision with "You Keep Running Away" by the Four Tops. Funnily, however, somewhere along the line after HDH left Motown somebody subsequently created a new stereo remix of the track and brought those horns back in, along with additional Levi vocals.

What we learn from this remix is that what sounds like an instrumental break in the original mono and stereo mixes is actually where they fade down Levi's vocals and fade up the horns.

Sadly, all we get to hear on stereo releases these days is that stereo remix that couldn't sound much more different to the original single hit version.)

[ejluther]

"On the stereo, the bass is constant, and the you can hear the EMT plates, and they sound harsh."
What are "EMT Plates"?

I think the song's/Diana's pace and phrasing on YCHL is some of the best on record; the way she and the song get more frantic with the verses and then are calmed down again by the reassuring chorus is simply golden! It's also a great example of how having actual human beings playing instruments can give a song room to vary its pace a bit and have a very natural organic quality...

[soulster]

I think we are getting away from the thread starter's question. I answered that. Anyone else?

[Sotosound]

I think we are getting away from the thread starter's question. I answered that. Anyone else?

In some ways, maybe we are but, as with a lot of things in life, it's the journey that really counts.

Maybe Longtimefan can let us know what they think about how this thread that they started has turned out so far?

[Sotosound]

"On the stereo, the bass is constant, and the you can hear the EMT plates, and they sound harsh."
What are "EMT Plates"?

I think the song's/Diana's pace and phrasing on YCHL is some of the best on record; the way she and the song get more frantic with the verses and then are calmed down again by the reassuring chorus is simply golden! It's also a great example of how having actual human beings playing instruments can give a song room to vary its pace a bit and have a very natural organic quality...

EMT Plates are electronic reverb units. [[I know this because I just Googled them. :) )

To be honest, for me, the large amount of reverb on the stereo mix saps it of some its bounce and vitality.

The stereo mix is, however, the version that Phil Collins' own hit version of the song appears to be based on.

Maybe this means that for the majority of consumers such considerations as mixes are less important than the song or the performance.

Sad for us anoraks.

[soulster]

EMT Plates are electronic reverb units. [[I know this because I just Googled them. :) )
Well, Motown used some big physical plates.

http://mixonline.com/TECnology-Hall-of-Fame/EMT-140-reverb-090106/

http://mixonline.com/TEC20/emt-140.WEB1.jpg

This will give you an idea of how big they could be:
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In some ways, maybe we are but, as with a lot of things in life, it's the journey that really counts.

Maybe Longtimefan can let us know what they think about how this thread that they started has turned out so far? I agree. Some feedback would be nice.

[soulster]

Maybe this means that for the majority of consumers such considerations as mixes are less important than the song or the performance.


I wouldn't say that, because one: there wouldn't be so many mix variations of music, and, two: people subconsciously know when a mix is good or bad.

Every producer, artist, and engineer, let alone record label, knows that the mix is of prime importance. It can make or break a record no matter how good a song or performance may be. That's why untold hours and dollars are spent on mixing alone. There are many cases in pop music where over 100 mixes were done just to find the best one. Remember that song "Brandy [[You're A Fine Girl)" by Looking Glass? Did you know around 100 mixes of that song were done! And, most people know about the headaches of Quincy Jones & Company trying to mix and remix michael jackson's "Thriller" for official release. As for Motown, do you think that the Chic mix of Diana Ross' "Diana" album would have been as big if it had been released? Same with Marvin Gaye's "What's Going On" album.

Maybe a lot of non-music people just pay attention to lyrics, or the singing, but on another level they aren't always aware of, they are indeed listening to the mix itself.

I hope I made my point.



The stereo mix is, however, the version that Phil Collins' own hit version of the song appears to be based on.

It doesn't make the stereo mix superior.

The main reason Phil Collins' version, and Billy Joel's "Tell her About It" are based on the stereo mixes of Motown songs is because by the early 80s, most people just had stereo albums or CDs. People had long forgotten about the sound of those mono 45s. After all, since the late 60s and early 70s, the industry did all it could to erase mono from the world, forgetting, or not caring that those mono mixes were unique, and, in many cases, irreplaceable. They were the hits that got played on the radio, the records that got sold, the versions that shot up to the top of the charts, and made millions for a lot of people. and the mixes people had parties with.

[skooldem1]

I agree. In many cases, the mix of a song can make or break a record.

[Sotosound]

I probably didn't express myself very well.

Personally, I don't really like the stereo mix of YCHL and I was therefore disappointed when Phil Collins based his own hit version on the stereo mix, with all of the reverb and without the stab of horns at the start.

On the other hand, fans put the Phil Collins version in the Top 10 in the USA and at Number 1 in the UK.

Similarly, we in the UK got a fold-down of "Give Me Just A Little More Time" by Chairmen of The Board and the US LP mix of "Creeque Alley" by The Mamas and Papas but still put both tracks into our own Top 10.

We even did this with "War" by Edwin Starr.

So, although the mixing engineers might have laboured long and hard on single mixes, and although I might protest loudly when I hear the stereo mix of a 60s hit on the radio or on a compilation album, the majority of the public don't seem to care.

I agree with Soulster as to why Phil Collins probably used the stereo mix in some respects but, since he was a big Motown fan and a musician, why didn't he notice the difference in the mixes? Also, I definitely agree that Phil Collins' choice doesn't make the stereo mix superior. That is down to which one the listener personally prefers.

[antceleb12]

Uh...there are no horns on that song!

Uh...yes there are. You might not be able to hear them, but that doesn't change the fact that they are there. No, they're not prominent, but my ears catch them and that's one of the reasons why I think the song is so great.

[soulster]

Uh...yes there are. You might not be able to hear them,

Are you certain you aren't hearing guitars?

I do not listen to the stereo mix of the song because I do not like its sonic qualities. But, I have listened to the mono single mix on studio-quality systems, and still don't hear but those two jabs on the intro and at the bridge.

[soulster]

So, although the mixing engineers might have laboured long and hard on single mixes, and although I might protest loudly when I hear the stereo mix of a 60s hit on the radio or on a compilation album, the majority of the public don't seem to care.

I say people unconsciously notice it.

But, what makes me cringe is when people hear the the stereo "Joy To The World" by Three Dog Night and don't even notice that half the song is missing. I don't know how well the song did in the U.K., so you may not know what i'm talking about. For this forum's purpose, I can use Jimmy Ruffin's stereo version of "I've Passed This Way Before" as a good example. The stereo mix is totally missing the background singers, strings, and brass section, and people don't even notice! Those two examples undoubtedly come from people only listening to the stereo albums.

[ejluther]

I find that a lot of people don't listen very carefully to music and are hard-pressed to notice differences. At the same time, we all tend to fall in love with the mix/version we heard first because of all sorts of factors and it's hard to replace it with something else, even if it is markedly "better". I'm just glad we do have the different versions/mixes to compare and contract...

[soulster]

I find that a lot of people don't listen very carefully to music and are hard-pressed to notice differences. At the same time, we all tend to fall in love with the mix/version we heard first because of all sorts of factors and it's hard to replace it with something else, even if it is markedly "better". I'm just glad we do have the different versions/mixes to compare and contract...

I can accept that view.

As for myself, I grew up with the mono 45s. I am still in the process of obtaining any and all mono singles mixes of all 60s and early 70s hit singles.

[rovereab]

I like the Ultimate Collection mono 45 mix of this song. It has a great tight feel to it with a good balance of vocal and instrument sound levels.

I do find that in general the 45 mono mixes of the 60s era are superior to the stereo mixes as the overall balance of vocals and instruments are better. Your All I Need To Get By by Marvin & Tammi is a good example where the drum is much more prominent on the stereo mix to [[I think) the detriment of the song. The mono mix is so much more balanced.

What I find interesting is that there is a stereo version of the Isley's This Old Heart on the double Anthology set that has the instruments mixed at the same levels as the mono mix which is very different to all other stereo mixes I have heard.

Conversely, I find the mono mixes of the Temptations Get Ready [[too "lightweight") and Marvin's What's Going On lacking the overall richness of the stereo mixes.

I guess we all have favourites of both mono and stereo mixes :)

[antceleb12]

Are you certain you aren't hearing guitars?

I do not listen to the stereo mix of the song because I do not like its sonic qualities. But, I have listened to the mono single mix on studio-quality systems, and still don't hear but those two jabs on the intro and at the bridge.

I am positive there are horns. I hear guitars, too, but one cannot possibly confuse a horn with a guitar, can they? They're buried in the mix, but they add a bold timbre to the mix.

[bradburger]

I am positive there are horns. I hear guitars, too, but one cannot possibly confuse a horn with a guitar, can they? They're buried in the mix, but they add a bold timbre to the mix.

I know it's going off the original question again, but antceleb is correct.

There are the so called 'horn stabs', and then there is brass [[or horns - whichever word you like call them) used differently [[brass or horn instruments on their own, and not in unison) during various parts of the tune, and obviously vary between the different mixes.

And as I said before, the 'horn stabs' at the start are on the stereo mix, and subsequent stereo remixes, it's just that they are masked by the guitar 'chank' [[that was muted out of the 45 mix), and the fact that they are panned, and have reverb on them.

Cheers

Paul

[Sotosound]

I like the Ultimate Collection mono 45 mix of this song. It has a great tight feel to it with a good balance of vocal and instrument sound levels.

I do find that in general the 45 mono mixes of the 60s era are superior to the stereo mixes as the overall balance of vocals and instruments are better. Your All I Need To Get By by Marvin & Tammi is a good example where the drum is much more prominent on the stereo mix to [[I think) the detriment of the song. The mono mix is so much more balanced.

What I find interesting is that there is a stereo version of the Isley's This Old Heart on the double Anthology set that has the instruments mixed at the same levels as the mono mix which is very different to all other stereo mixes I have heard.

Conversely, I find the mono mixes of the Temptations Get Ready [[too "lightweight") and Marvin's What's Going On lacking the overall richness of the stereo mixes.

I guess we all have favourites of both mono and stereo mixes :)

My guess - as I think that I covered in an old thread a few years ago now - is that the stereo mix of TOHOM - found on the Isley Brothers anthology where there should have been a mono track since it was meant to be the mono TOHOM album on that disc - IS the mono mix. If you fold it down you get the mono mix.

Also, if you listen to the single itself, the lead vocals are far too clean and hi fi and up front and sat in front of the backing to have been part of a true mono mix. In a true mono mix, a hole would have been created in the middle of the mix where a suitably EQ'd vocal would slot in nicely.

Similarly, the stereo mix of "There's No Love Left", also found therein when it should have been a mono track folds down nicely to give the mono mix found on the B-side of TOHOM. Ok, the EQ is different, but that's all.

[soulster]

I am positive there are horns. I hear guitars, too, but one cannot possibly confuse a horn with a guitar, can they? They're buried in the mix, but they add a bold timbre to the mix.

HAH! I finally noticed them on the mono mix! There's a triplet right where she sings "...long it takes"! All these years and I never noticed it!

This shows that sometimes you don't notice things until they are pointed out to you.

[Sotosound]

HAH! I finally noticed them on the mono mix! There's a triplet right where she sings "...long it takes"! All these years and I never noticed it!

This shows that sometimes you don't notice things until they are pointed out to you.

And that's the wonder of classic Motown. There's always something new to find in an old favourite. When, for instance, I heard the backing vocal arrangement on "Bernadette" out there by itself for the first time I was amazed at how complex it was. Listening to the single you might not notice it but it's there and it adds to the overall texture. Take it out, however, and it would leave a noticeable hole.