Forever Came today

[skooldem1]

IMO one of the best HDH songs is "Forever came today". I love the song structure. It is a great song, whether it is sung at a slower tempo or as a dance song.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXeQJVvxjqA

[skooldem1]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzJYAUjAlfs

[skooldem1]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QY5Jo0bv88

[skooldem1]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gx2enzJMkNI

[Motown Queen]

I always felt this song was missing something. Don't get me wrong, it's good, but something is missing.

[roger]

I always felt this song was missing something. Don't get me wrong, it's good, but something is missing.

I have to agree with you Motown Queen ... as much as I like the song the DRATS version of it can't seem to make up its mind whether to be a ballad or an uptempo number and seems to straddle the uncomfortable area between the two. Personally I think that HDH should have done it like the JACKSON FIVE version from the outset.

I think that HDH were trying to be a tad too clever with the original version, however there is no doubt that the ladies enjoyed singing the song .. as can be seen from this "live" performance of it on The Ed Sullivan Show ...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63UQ23cMzA0

Roger

[thisoldheart]

i'm on the side that the supremes version is one of the last great hdh songs. this, and "i'm in a different world", the last hdh song for the tops seemed to follow an increasing progression of sophisticated complexity. obviously these two songs did not do well on the charts as previous hdh hits ... but i think that popular culture did not "get" what hdh were doing. their entire career at motown was a subtle progression of records. their work was a series of similar songs, each a little ahead of the last, broken by major shifts in style. i call the post "reflections" and the post "reach out" songs their baroque period. you either like it, or you don't. and that is why i find their next body of work at inviticus so perplexing. it doesn't build out of their previous work, but seems to actually step back to hdh's early less sophisticated sound. yup, i like this song & no, hdh would never have produced the song for the supremes like the jackson 5 version. brian holland redid it with the jackson 5 much later. disco was years away when hdh did the original!

[roger]

Well thisoldheartofmine HDH productions such as "Nothing But Heartaches", "Something About You" and "Love Is Like An Itching In My Heart" were pretty much "disco" records [[what with those relentless uptempo rhythms) though no one was using the term at the time, and it is interesting that the "Disco" version of "Love Is Like An Itching In My Heart" by RALPH CARTER from 1976 isn't too dissimilar from the original by THE SUPREMES ..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Inua0Qdof0

Of course each of those three HDH productions I've mentioned was a relative failure chartwise, and "Forever Came Today" was completed in late-1967/early-1968 which was at a time when people were moving away from the mid-60's verse/chorus/verse/chorus/instrumental-break/chorus type songs and artists were recording more complex songs.

It would be interesting to find out who was the driving force behind the recording of "Forever Came Today" as both BRIAN HOLLAND and LAMONT DOZIER have gone on record as saying that they thought it was the best song they had recorded at that time and they were truly shocked when it was only a medium sized hit.

I get the impression from their '70s work at Invictus and beyond that it was LAMONT DOZIER who was the one who aimed for the "baroque" sound [[after all he did name one of his L.P.s "Black Bach") and it was the Holland brothers who were more orientated to a more basic R&B sound. Whether this was the case in 1967/68 I really don't know and perhaps it was the relative failure of "Forever Came Today" and "I'm In A Different World" that "pushed back" the Holland Brothers in the way that you've mentioned .. mind you the "Contact" L.P. by FREDA PAYNE on Invictus was quite "Baroque" as was the HOLLAND-DOZIER Invictus single "Why Can't We Be Lovers". I've always considered "Why Can't We Be Lovers" to be the first "Lamont Dozier single" as the Holland brothers element seems minimal, maybe Mr Dozier was the driving force behind "Contact" as well.

Roger

[skooldem1]

as much as I like the song the DRATS version of it can't seem to make up its mind whether to be a ballad or an uptempo number and seems to straddle the uncomfortable area between the two.

That is what I like so much about the song. For the most part, even the Jackson's version is sung like that. It is just over a disco beat.

[motony]

I always liked the original track.That was one of the few Diana Ross AND the Supremes 45's that I bought.I did like the Jacksons version also but the original is my faviorite version.

[rovereab]

I think FCT would have benefited from a more forceful drum/tambourine sound, perhaps like Reflections. FCT somehow sounds a bit weak to me. Perhaps somebody could prepare a new mix with the drum/tambourine from Reflections :)

Good song though!

[gordy_hunk]

This has always been my favourite of all of the Supremes [[Diana Ross) singles.

Thanks for posting the clip too - I've never seen this performed by the Supremes - so it was particularly good for me to see it.

I've noticed [[again) on this clip, that the Supremes [[Cindy and Mary) do not have microphones, so who was singing the backing vocals? Or was it a pre-recorded track with the backing vocals, and Diana simply sang, and so the other two Supremes were superfluous [[vocally that is)?

[bradsupremes]

I've always felt "Forever Came Today" and "I'm In A Different World" to go hand in hand. Two gorgeous songs with a sophisticated structure, chord progressions, melodies, and lyrics. "Forever Came Today" was cut in LA in April 1967 intended for the Miracles, but got reassigned to the Supremes by year's end. I don't even think they oversaw Diana's vocal session that December. "I'm In A Different World" was, I believe, the last song HDH cut with the Four Tops and at Motown. They disappeared from the session logs after the November 1967 background vocal sessions.

I've always hated the Jackson's version of "Forever Came Today." It really took away from the beauty of the melody and overall lyrical content. It became more about the beat and less on the song's message. To me, the Supremes' original will always be the best. The Commodores do a great version too.

[Lulu]

I have to agree with you Motown Queen ... as much as I like the song the DRATS version of it can't seem to make up its mind whether to be a ballad or an uptempo number and seems to straddle the uncomfortable area between the two. Personally I think that HDH should have done it like the JACKSON FIVE version from the outset.

I think that HDH were trying to be a tad too clever with the original version, however there is no doubt that the ladies enjoyed singing the song .. as can be seen from this "live" performance of it on The Ed Sullivan Show ...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63UQ23cMzA0

Roger

Can I just share that, song aside, I fell out that night they sang this after I saw Diana's dress and that wig! Girlllllllllll...that get up was EVERYTHING!!!

[Lulu]

That is what I like so much about the song. For the most part, even the Jackson's version is sung like that. It is just over a disco beat.

Michael's voice was spot on though as it uuuuuuually was!

[supremester]

I can sum up what I love about Miss Ross easily: this video. Especially that little look she does after singing "Your touch........" seriously I love that stuff......


Can I just share that, song aside, I fell out that night they sang this after I saw Diana's dress and that wig! Girlllllllllll...that get up was EVERYTHING!!!

[supremester]

I think FCT would have benefitted from having Mary & Flo on the bg instead of The A's...... I don't like the bg sound on any of The Reflections singles.
I think FCT would have benefited from a more forceful drum/tambourine sound, perhaps like Reflections. FCT somehow sounds a bit weak to me. Perhaps somebody could prepare a new mix with the drum/tambourine from Reflections :)

Good song though!

[captainjames]

This is the song where all 3 were sexy as hell

[blackguy69]

Mary and Cindy pre recorded their vocals for Sullivan

[rrussi]

It probably didn't help the record when the word was already in the press that HDH were leaving Motown.

[marv2]

This has always been my favourite of all of the Supremes [[Diana Ross) singles.

Thanks for posting the clip too - I've never seen this performed by the Supremes - so it was particularly good for me to see it.

I've noticed [[again) on this clip, that the Supremes [[Cindy and Mary) do not have microphones, so who was singing the backing vocals? Or was it a pre-recorded track with the backing vocals, and Diana simply sang, and so the other two Supremes were superfluous [[vocally that is)?

I've been in that theater [[the Ed Sullivan Theater) several times. What you cannot see is that they have boom microphones over head that are hanging from some type of apparatus. Those are the mics that are picking up Mary and Cindy. It is also much smaller [[the theater) in person than it appears on television.

[gordy_hunk]

I've been in that theater [[the Ed Sullivan Theater) several times. What you cannot see is that they have boom microphones over head that are hanging from some type of apparatus. Those are the mics that are picking up Mary and Cindy. It is also much smaller [[the theater) in person than it appears on television.

Thanks blackguy69, I thought that the backing vocals may have been prerecorded, and the music too.

I've no idea where the Ed Sullivan Theatre is - and have never seen it on television [[I don't know who Ed Sullivan is - some kind of tv presenter?). As Mary and Cindy move around so much, the boom microphones would have to move a lot too - and the people holding those microphones would need to know exactly where Mary and Cindy are going to move to, otherwise their sound / loudness of the vocals would fluctuate so much.

I don't know why Diana would need a microphone, but the other two wouldn't - likewise, if the boom microphone works so extremely well for Mary and Cindy's vocals, why not for Diana's? I'm not a sound technician, and there may be lots of reasons why my questions seem to be naive. I wasn't around in 1968 when this song came out, and I really don't know what the technology would have been like in those days.

[skooldem1]

The David Letterman show is taped in the "Ed Sullivan" Theater.

[marv2]

Thanks blackguy69, I thought that the backing vocals may have been prerecorded, and the music too.

I've no idea where the Ed Sullivan Theatre is - and have never seen it on television [[I don't know who Ed Sullivan is - some kind of tv presenter?). As Mary and Cindy move around so much, the boom microphones would have to move a lot too - and the people holding those microphones would need to know exactly where Mary and Cindy are going to move to, otherwise their sound / loudness of the vocals would fluctuate so much.

I don't know why Diana would need a microphone, but the other two wouldn't - likewise, if the boom microphone works so extremely well for Mary and Cindy's vocals, why not for Diana's? I'm not a sound technician, and there may be lots of reasons why my questions seem to be naive. I wasn't around in 1968 when this song came out, and I really don't know what the technology would have been like in those days.


The Ed Sullivan Theater is on Broadway in New York City. It is named after legendary television variety show host , Ed Sullivan who was a staple of American television from roughly 1948-71. [[Google his name for details and biography). The Supremes appeared on his show [[where this clip comes from) over 15 times approximately.

[marv2]

The David Letterman show is taped in the "Ed Sullivan" Theater.

Yes that is true. I have been to tapings of the Letterman Show.

[marv2]

Mary and Cindy pre recorded their vocals for Sullivan

Mary said that they were singing live for this appearance and others. The boom mics overhead were used for she and Cindy's vocals as well as their handclaps.

[supremester]

Marv is simply very incorrect as he often makes things up. In this case, Diana is live and Mary & Cindy are lipping to The Andantes. Overhead boom mics don't pic up sound that well, can't move as quickly as needed to adjust fpr sound levels and they often used this technique - not only on Ed Sullivan, but many other shows. It gave the group a better visual image to be able to move more freely without the cumbersome and physical limitations of 3 hand held mics. Of course, he will dispute this so, please look closely at Mary right after they advance. You will notice she is smiling but not moving her lips while the bg is clearly being enunciated. Louvaine Demps of The Andantes confirmed that they would record bgs for Mary & Cindy on TV shows. If you want to hear what Mary & Cindy sound like live on Ed Sullivan, watch them on The Impossible Dream on Ed Sullivan on Youtube. They sound great because Mary is anchoring the bg. In this clip, the voices are clearly not them. And I don't believe Mary would remember if they were live or not. She rarely is able to give definitive answers to questions like these as they did so many TV shows decades ago. You could verify this I belive by writing to her at her website. In any event, only Senor Wences can sing without his lips moving on Ed Sullivan.


This has always been my favourite of all of the Supremes [[Diana Ross) singles.

Thanks for posting the clip too - I've never seen this performed by the Supremes - so it was particularly good for me to see it.

I've noticed [[again) on this clip, that the Supremes [[Cindy and Mary) do not have microphones, so who was singing the backing vocals? Or was it a pre-recorded track with the backing vocals, and Diana simply sang, and so the other two Supremes were superfluous [[vocally that is)?

[roger]

Thanks blackguy69, I thought that the backing vocals may have been prerecorded, and the music too.

I've no idea where the Ed Sullivan Theatre is - and have never seen it on television [[I don't know who Ed Sullivan is - some kind of tv presenter?). As Mary and Cindy move around so much, the boom microphones would have to move a lot too - and the people holding those microphones would need to know exactly where Mary and Cindy are going to move to, otherwise their sound / loudness of the vocals would fluctuate so much.

I don't know why Diana would need a microphone, but the other two wouldn't - likewise, if the boom microphone works so extremely well for Mary and Cindy's vocals, why not for Diana's? I'm not a sound technician, and there may be lots of reasons why my questions seem to be naive. I wasn't around in 1968 when this song came out, and I really don't know what the technology would have been like in those days.

I think you are showing your lack of age by saying you have never heard of ED SULLIVAN [[I'm a bit jealous there :)) .. the first time I ever heard of Mr Sullivan was when the U.S. went mad over that obscure group from Liverpool called THE BEATLES and the BBC reported that there was some record audience for the show ... 80 Million I think.

With regard to that DIANA ROSS & THE SUPREMES performance on Mr Sullivan's show, it does look very "Live" to me, and the handclaps and backing vocals fit perfectly .. perhaps it was all pre-recorded and Miss Ross's microphone was just there for show??

Roger

[thommg]

With regard to that DIANA ROSS & THE SUPREMES performance on Mr Sullivan's show, it does look very "Live" to me, and the handclaps and backing vocals fit perfectly .. perhaps it was all pre-recorded and Miss Ross's microphone was just there for show??

After watching I would say that the background was pre-recroded with Cindy and Mary - they never sound like more than 2 voices and the Andantes would have been fuller. Also, I think Diana is singing live. When she starts "As we were standing there.... " she seems to come in early on the first line. Also, Ed Sullivan always wanted people to sing live on his show and not lip synch unless necessary.

[supremester]

Does it SOUND like Mary & Cindy? I can't tell. To me it sounds like Louvaine & Jackie. They may have recorded a bg for it when they recorded Fats Waller for the same show. I just don't hear Mary on it. Her voice is more rich than what I'm hearing. DR&TS lipped : Always, Irving Berlin, Fats Waller, Love Child, NMWSYA, Thou Swell and, I believe, Funny Girl.

[marv2]

Marv is simply lying to you as he often makes things up. In this case, Diana is live and Mary & Cindy are lipping to The Andantes. Overhead boom mics don't pic up sound that well, can't move as quickly as needed to adjust fpr sound levels and they often used this technique - not only on Ed Sullivan, but many other shows. It gave the group a better visual image to be able to move more freely without the cumbersome and physical limitations of 3 hand held mics. Of course, he will dispute this so, please look closely at Mary right after they advance. You will notice she is smiling but not moving her lips while the bg is clearly being enunciated. Louvaine Demps of The Andantes confirmed that they would record bgs for Mary & Cindy on TV shows. If you want to hear what Mary & Cindy sound like live on Ed Sullivan, watch them on The Impossible Dream on Ed Sullivan on Youtube. They sound great because Mary is anchoring the bg. In this clip, the voices are clearly not them. And I don't believe Mary would remember if they were live or not. She rarely is able to give definitive answers to questions like these as they did so many TV shows decades ago. You could verify this I belive by writing to her at her website. In any event, only Senor Wences can sing without his lips moving on Ed Sullivan.

Nope, not lying here. This is not important enough, nor is there any big money at stake. I am simply sharing what I have been told by someone that was there and on the stage. For future reference. I do not lie as a general rule of life.

[captainjames]

Jean can be seen in the same outfit on the back of "Right ON" but DANG DMC were too fine looking on this appearance. This is when I knew what they meant when they said the group was glamorous. I don't think [[from my ears) that Cindy and Mary can be heard on this but then they looked so fine I did not care back then. "Forever" was a song that I believe Berry wanted to keep the magic stardust from HDH to continue until he had a plan.

[marv2]

I think you are showing your lack of age by saying you have never heard of ED SULLIVAN [[I'm a bit jealous there :)) .. the first time I ever heard of Mr Sullivan was when the U.S. went mad over that obscure group from Liverpool called THE BEATLES and the BBC reported that there was some record audience for the show ... 80 Million I think.

With regard to that DIANA ROSS & THE SUPREMES performance on Mr Sullivan's show, it does look very "Live" to me, and the handclaps and backing vocals fit perfectly .. perhaps it was all pre-recorded and Miss Ross's microphone was just there for show??

Roger

Roger you are correct, it was live. One clue for the non-believers is you cannot match the handclap movements with recorded handclap sounds...........

[captainjames]

Jean can be seen in the same outfit on the back of "Right ON" but DANG DMC were too fine looking on this appearance. This is when I knew what they meant when they said the group was glamorous. I don't think [[from my ears) that Cindy and Mary can be heard on this but then they looked so fine I did not care back then. "Forever" was a song that I believe Berry wanted to keep the magic stardust from HDH to continue until he had a plan.

[marv2]

Does it SOUND like Mary & Cindy? I can't tell. To me it sounds like Louvaine & Jackie. They may have recorded a bg for it when they recorded Fats Waller for the same show. I just don't hear Mary on it. Her voice is more rich than what I'm hearing. DR&TS lipped : Always, Irving Berlin, Fats Waller, Love Child, NMWSYA, Thou Swell and, I believe, Funny Girl.

No, it does not sound like Louvain & Jackie.......you want it to sound like Louvain & Jackie for some reason so to your ears it does. I personally do not know what Louvain & Jackie sound like. I do know what Mary Wilson sounds like and to a slightly lesser degree what Cindy Birdsong sounds like.

[supremester]

Fair enough. I'll not re-post the many many other similar instances and hope that, from now on, reality will prevail or be confined to your daily, hate-filled Youtube rants.

i don't WANT it to sound like anybody. I'm not rooting for anyone. I think they would sound better if Mary were there and I think the vocal in ineffective so I will ask you this: do you REALLY hear Mary on this clip?

[supremester]

The hand claps ARE live and much more pronounced than the vocals. I didn'rt think we were discussing the clapping.

[captainjames]

NOPE
I do Not Hear Mary Wilson on this at All.


Fair enough. I'll not re-post the many many other similar instances and hope that, from now on, reality will prevail or be confined to your daily, hate-filled Youtube rants.

i don't WANT it to sound like anybody. I'm not rooting for anyone. I think they would sound better if Mary were there and I think the vocal in ineffective so I will ask you this: do you REALLY hear Mary on this clip?

[supremester]

I don't either - and I want to. I think it needs her on it. It's too bad they couldn't get Flo to record bgs after she left. I know that's crazy, but these Reflections singles would have fared better, I think with DMF. Marv looks at The A's as the enemy, and fights every suggestion that they are there because he feels it diminishes Mary's perceived role in the group. Evidently he thinks because I'm annoyed at Mary's trouble making lies that I can't appreciate what she brought to the group. So he spends hours and hours attacking Diana and her fans while praising Mary on websites all over the place. If it wasn't so annoying, it would be endearing to see such a devoted fan of anyone, but the negativity offsets all of that.

To your earlier comment, when this first aired, I couldn't believe how incredible Miss Ross was - I felt her looking right at me in that first tight shot. No one, before or after, stares down a camera like Miss Ross. I thought I was gonna pass out when they started walking toward the camera. I was still missing Flo horribly, but I was knocked out by that image and knew Flo wasn't gonna be wearing anything like that.
They just kept getting better and better.........it was amazing.

[ejluther]

I think it's interesting that he introduces them all by name and not "Diana Ross & The Supremes" - was this their first time on Ed Sullivan after Flo left? If they did "Reflections" or "In and Out of Love" on his show I'm not remembering it but I'm prepared to be wrong, course...

[supremester]

This is the second DR&TS appearance. First was In & Out, Greensleeves and duet w/The Temps. "Interesting" - how so?

[captainjames]

Supremester, you are dead on and 100% correct.



I don't either - and I want to. I think it needs her on it. It's too bad they couldn't get Flo to record bgs after she left. I know that's crazy, but these Reflections singles would have fared better, I think with DMF. Marv looks at The A's as the enemy, and fights every suggestion that they are there because he feels it diminishes Mary's perceived role in the group. Evidently he thinks because I'm annoyed at Mary's trouble making lies that I can't appreciate what she brought to the group. So he spends hours and hours attacking Diana and her fans while praising Mary on websites all over the place. If it wasn't so annoying, it would be endearing to see such a devoted fan of anyone, but the negativity offsets all of that.

To your earlier comment, when this first aired, I couldn't believe how incredible Miss Ross was - I felt her looking right at me in that first tight shot. No one, before or after, stares down a camera like Miss Ross. I thought I was gonna pass out when they started walking toward the camera. I was still missing Flo horribly, but I was knocked out by that image and knew Flo wasn't gonna be wearing anything like that.
They just kept getting better and better.........it was amazing.

[rod_rick]

Does it SOUND like Mary & Cindy? I can't tell. To me it sounds like Louvaine & Jackie. They may have recorded a bg for it when they recorded Fats Waller for the same show. I just don't hear Mary on it. Her voice is more rich than what I'm hearing. DR&TS lipped : Always, Irving Berlin, Fats Waller, Love Child, NMWSYA, Thou Swell and, I believe, Funny Girl.

My ear tell me that it is Mary and Cindy on the backing vocals. I would think that if the Andantes sang background on the recording you would have heard lyrics instead of ahhs. Also the arrangement of the backing vocals would have been different. If Louvaine is singing behind Diana her note would have been on top of Diana's instead of singing the alto or middle note [[Below Diana) which Cindy sings throughout many of the show recordings. Generally it is three Andantes in the background not two, that's one of the tell tell signs if you want to know if it is the Andantes or the Supremes singing background.
I give the Andantes much credit but I don't think it is them on the TV shows [[Ed Sullivan)

[captainjames]

No I actually have the recording of this appearance and he announces the SUPREMES and then names the ladies each. Ed would sometimes just say "The Girls". It was at this time that they really didn't need an introduction because everyone knew them. DANG they were just so pretty here !!!!


I think it's interesting that he introduces them all by name and not "Diana Ross & The Supremes" - was this their first time on Ed Sullivan after Flo left? If they did "Reflections" or "In and Out of Love" on his show I'm not remembering it but I'm prepared to be wrong, course...

[rod_rick]

Captainjames
I hear Cindy more on this and there are other TV show that I notice you can hear Cindy clearer than Mary. or example the the hits medley and I hear a Symphony from TCB. On the video CIndy is louder than Mary. Another instance is JMC on Andy WIlliams, CIndy is louder than Mary. I also have a tape of JMC singing Up The Ladder To The Roof from Merv Griffin Cindy is louder. There are a few more DMC performances where Cindy is more prominent than Mary I just don't know the name of the performances but I can see clearly in my head.

[ejluther]

"Interesting" - how so?
I thought maybe it was because it was Cindy's first time on the Ed Sullivan show, that's all. To my recollection he didn't usually name them individually but rather, "The Supremes", "Diana Ross & The Supremes", or, as captainjames points out, "The Girls"! But I could very well be wrong and he named them individually several times. With all you read about the powers that be trying to "fool" the public into thinking Cindy actually was Flo it was nice to see Cindy get name-checked so early in her tenure...

[supremester]

That's an old wives' tale that people who wish to vilify Motown use. I don't think anyone was trying to pass Cindy off as Flo ever - except at Hollywood Bowl, of course. Before it was official, they just kept mum to keep the gossip down, which worked well enough until The Tonight Show. When Johnny Carson brought it up, Ross, either instructed or winging it, did the famous quote about stand-ins. To some, it was an ego thing, to the concert business, you don't want the public thinking the most expensive ticket in the world might have an unknown lead singer. Flo had missed enough shows that the standard operating procedure was to not do introductions. I don't believe Marlene was ever intro'd in her appearances. The fans knew it wasn't Flo, so there was no fooling anyone that knew her and those that didn't wouldn't care but might know there was no Marlene in The Supremes. - Word was out in August that Flo was gone, but I didn't know until Reflections on TV. [["THAT'S NOT FLO!!!!!!!!")
Then, DR&TS Greatest Hits came out with Flo all over it, then DR&TS came to town and...... No FLO. Cindy was introduced as if she belonged. They were still fab and Miss Ross tore the place up, but, those who knew Missed Flo. I think most people in the sold out Coliseum didn't know.

[blackguy69]

if it was really the andantes singing instead mary and cindy, wouldnt they know the words [[since they did record them) instead of the aaahhs that we hear.

[marv2]

I agree that the record "Forever Came Today" needed a heavier beat or something to enhance it.

[soulballad]

This one is a bit questionable? I don't know what Motown said to Cindy or what Cindy took upon herself to do, but for the first few years Cindy was Flo! What I mean by this is watch her expressions and stance etc on those live shows. The main noticeable difference was Flo was more at ease, Cindy seemed a bit intimidated or something so she appeared to hold back. I do know that she studied tapes of Flo and sat in the audience for several shows. She also said herself that she tried to wear her makeup like Flo to make the audience more comfortable so who knows? It also could be that they really were very similar in look and image? I have to say on that performance of the her with Mary and Scherrie singing the National Anthem she looked a LOT like FLO in the mushroom pageboy wig! By the time Jean came in she had developed her own unique persona and it blended very well with Jean and Mary.

Back on topic I do hear Mary and Cindy on the Sullivan performance. I think the Bg's were pre-recorded and Cindy was mixed a bit louder. She also sang very softly, so I think this was done to get a good blend. There were other times the overhead mikes were used.

FCT was an okay song but something was terribly wrong even when I heard it back in the day. IMO those muffled indiscernible backgrounds ruined it. One of the ladies back there was a bit too deep for the Supreme sound and it just didn't sound right. The 45 mono was just a bit better but still not No.1 hit material.The backgrounds lacked personality and lively energy. Actually the bg's on Sullivan sound much better.

Btw another good example where Cindy was mixed up is on the GIT Porgy and Best Medley

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbjpS8LKbS8

[marv2]

For me, all the stuff released on the Supremes after Florence and before Jean Terrell came was kinda bland, blah, etc with the exception of Love Child and Someday, We'll Be Together. I was so happy when Jean, Mary, Cindy and Frank Wilson regrouped things.

[mofreaktown]

I remember reading somewhere that Forever Came Toady was not finished when HDH left Motown and that Motown [[not sure who) finished it for release. Does anyone else recall this or know the details behind this?

[carole cucumber]

I remember reading somewhere that Forever Came Toady was not finished when HDH left Motown and that Motown [[not sure who) finished it for release. Does anyone else recall this or know the details behind this?

J. Randy Taraborrelli mentions this in 'Motown: Hot Wax, City Cool, Solid Gold'. But the book was written in 1988 and since that time, interviews with Lamont Dozier and/or the Holland Brothers indicate that the song was finished before they left. They had expected it to be a sizeable hit.

[roger]

I remember reading somewhere that Forever Came Toady was not finished when HDH left Motown and that Motown [[not sure who) finished it for release. Does anyone else recall this or know the details behind this?

According to the notes with TCMS8 the track was recorded on April 20th 1967 and assigned to THE MIRACLES, then the lead vocal was recorded on December 20th 1967 and the backing vocals [[by THE ANDANTES) on January 6th 1968 and January 23rd 1968.

Roger

[bradsupremes]

I'm pretty sure HDH were gone by the time Diana and the Andantes put their vocals on the track. The last time they appeared in the session logs was for the Four Tops' background on "I'm In A Different World" in November 1967. I could be wrong though. R. Dean Taylor oversaw Levi Stubbs' vocal session on "I'm In A Different World" which he recorded in April 1968. I wouldn't be surprised if Motown had R. Dean Taylor, who worked with HDH, oversee Diana's and the Andantes' vocal sessions for the song.

[supremester]

It seems enough peeps here can hear Cindy and/or Mary, I cannot but I'll take your word for it. Clearly it is lipped. I think they eschewed the add;l bg lyrics because they simply do not work on the record and help ruin it as you stated. Maybe it's impossible for any singers to make them work. I like the handclap thing, but I'd love to know what the lyrics are. The overhead mics weren't used when there was movement as footsteps and swishes from gowns would get picked up. What song do you think overheads were used on? On Hollywood Palace, they lipped the bgs in the gold dresses.

[captainjames]

I can not always pick Cindy Birdsong's voice out from the BG but Mary Wilson voice I can and she is not on this record or recording or even on the appearance with Ed Sullivan.

[blackguy69]

I can not always pick Cindy Birdsong's voice out from the BG but Mary Wilson voice I can and she is not on this record or recording or even on the appearance with Ed Sullivan.
we know she isnt on the recording. as for the apperance, she could be singing in a different key. and i was going to point out, if there were going to use the andantes bg vocals, all they had to do is just have diana sing over the track with the andantes vocals already in it.

[captainjames]

Maybe during this time maybe Motown was trying to give off the illusion that Mary and Cindy were on the recording. I don' think at this taping no one knew for sure that the Andantes were in the BG. So its possible Motown was trying to make it look good.

[supremester]

I never saw Diana sing live over the official track. I think they made it that way for the live experience. Usually the beat and bass were toned down for Sullivan. It never occurred to me back then that it wasn't always The Supremes in the bg. Certainly it sounded as if extra voices were there - like in 4 Tops records, but I didn't know if it was sound effects or more voices. I know I hated the bgs on In & Out and FCT, not crazy about Reflections either and supposedly that is Mary & Flo. It's definitely Mary & Cindy on Irving Berlin.

[smark21]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4cQZvgSXhs

They also did their best ever Sullivan performance [[Fats Waller) on the same show they did Forever Came Today. And that's certainly Diana, Mary and Cindy on this.

[REDHOT]

Forever Came Today,oh well i love The Supremes,but The Jackson did a better job on Forever,then The Supremes,Yes The Jackson 5 killed it.

[supremester]

It's also Mary & Cindy on Thou Swell/Greensleeves & Funny Girl. It appears that Funny Girl is both live in parts and lipped in parts - is that possible? I'm not sure about Cole Porter - I don't hear Mary.

[stephanie]

Forever Came Today sucked! Only the Jacksons made this song brilliant. I like the lyrics but the arrangement does not make for a hit song. I think it is the Andantes back there I dont hear Mary and Cindy although I want to. Reflections was a catchy tune this song is too symphonic and it has muffled backgrounds. It reminds me of the teacher talking to the Charlie Brown kids in the classroom. I couldnt imagine Mary and Cindy singing this song live. Does not translate into a hit it does not computer. I think only Supreme diehards [[like myself) bought this. Now In and Out of Love ....Andantes and Mary and Flo and all the backgrounds were not muffled and there was a pleasant springtime sound to it. I know I am in the minority here but this is not a hit sounding song. Now Im in A Different World by the Four Tops is hitworthy but I dont think it had a hook but it was a great record.

[mowest]

Take a listen to the Commodores' version of Forever Came Today. That is "the one."

[soulballad]

Forever Came Today sucked! Only the Jacksons made this song brilliant. I like the lyrics but the arrangement does not make for a hit song. I think it is the Andantes back there I dont hear Mary and Cindy although I want to. Reflections was a catchy tune this song is too symphonic and it has muffled backgrounds. It reminds me of the teacher talking to the Charlie Brown kids in the classroom. I couldnt imagine Mary and Cindy singing this song live. Does not translate into a hit it does not computer. I think only Supreme diehards [[like myself) bought this. Now In and Out of Love ....Andantes and Mary and Flo and all the backgrounds were not muffled and there was a pleasant springtime sound to it. I know I am in the minority here but this is not a hit sounding song. Now Im in A Different World by the Four Tops is hitworthy but I dont think it had a hook but it was a great record.


Omg I always hated "In and Out of Love" I don't care who sang on it! Haha! I know we were told that Mary and Flo were erased but I can hear that the vocals were combined. It sounds like Flo and Mary on the Keep Falling in and out of love parts and the Andantes sing "Look Look, Looking for a love" again it's just too deep and muffled to my ears. I do not like that husky sounding voice on a female. The same voice is on FCT I used think it was Nick Ashford singing in Falsetto on FCT. Who knows who else might have been thrown into the mix.

[ejluther]

Man, how I love the Fats Waller number - especially the 20 or so seconds that start right here [[Miss Ross can really blow when given the chance):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=i4cQZvgSXhs#t=222

And thanks for the tip, mowest; here's a link to the Commodores version of FCT [[also very enjoyable):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QY5Jo0bv88

[Sotosound]

As a 13 year-old living in North London, I really liked both "Forever Came Today" and "In And Out Of Love". I had no idea about much other than that they were both great pop songs.

FCT was suitably weird to my young ears and IAOOL leapt out of my parents' AM radio as a bright and bouncy track that brought sunshine into the house.

FCT probably suffered a bit in the commercial sense because of the tempo changes etc. Even "Reflections" keeps its groove going all the way through.

All these years later I could worry about where these two tracks were recorded [[not Detroit) or who sang backing vocals but, to me, the most important thing is that I still love em both and still prefer the mono mixes in each case.