4 Tops and HDH

[mofreaktown]

I believe the 4 Tops left Motown around 1972. Given the great success, they had with HDH, I would have thought there might have discussions about them joining Invictus/Hot Wax. Does anyone know if there were discussions and if so, why it didn't happen?

[thomas96]

I don't know for sure, but it may have been a breach of contract that HDH had with Motown and at that time, they were in a lawsuit dukin' it out.

[marv2]

I don't know for sure, but it may have been a breach of contract that HDH had with Motown and at that time, they were in a lawsuit dukin' it out.

Yes that lawsuit drug on for years. I am going to research Jet Magazine because I remember reading the article they carried when the suit had been settled.

[marv2]

I believe the 4 Tops left Motown around 1972. Given the great success, they had with HDH, I would have thought there might have discussions about them joining Invictus/Hot Wax. Does anyone know if there were discussions and if so, why it didn't happen?

I too would have thought more of the Motown Artists would have moved over to HDH's Invictus/Hot Wax label. I would have loved to hear what they could have done with someone like Florence Ballard, Jimmy Ruffin etc.

[mofreaktown]

I thought of Florence as well. Strange that she joined ABC with terrible results, yet the 4 Tops had a pretty good run with the same label.

[marv2]

I thought of Florence as well. Strange that she joined ABC with terrible results, yet the 4 Tops had a pretty good run with the same label.

Florence had a totally different set of circumstances from those of the Four Tops.

[thomas96]

I thought of Florence as well. Strange that she joined ABC with terrible results, yet the 4 Tops had a pretty good run with the same label.

Well for one thing, Flo's name was not known around the world already. The Four Tops were, and were still the group that had hits and everyone had known. Flo was not allowed to acknowledge that she was a member of the Supremes. And from what I've heard she wasn't that hard of a worker at that point-struggling with drugs/alcohol, and ABC gave her no promotion.

[blackguy69]

I know that Florence wasn't allow to use the Supremes name but that shouldn't have stop the radio dj's from mentioning it

[reese]

From what I've read, the Tops also wanted a certain amount of money when they wanted to renegotiate with Motown. HDH probably couldn't match that offer, if they were even considered.

[144man]

The songs that would have been most suitable for the Tops ended up with Chairmen of the Board. Would there have been room for both groups on a fledgling label?

[marv2]

The songs that would have been most suitable for the Tops ended up with Chairmen of the Board. Would there have been room for both groups on a fledgling label?

144man you are so right! I hate putting it this way but General Johnson had a similar sound to Levi. He was nowhere near the vocalist Levi was but he served HDH's productions well. Same with Freda.

[thisoldheart]

i realize martha reeves was still signed to motown, but "band of gold" sounds like a perfect heartbreaker written just for her.

it seems like such a mistake in retrospect ... hdh and motown should have figured out a way stay together. both needed each other more than they realized, and both suffered irreparable harm.

[smark21]

Perhaps ABC Records had better management by the early 70s when the 4 Tops signed up?

[marv2]

i realize martha reeves was still signed to motown, but "band of gold" sounds like a perfect heartbreaker written just for her.

it seems like such a mistake in retrospect ... hdh and motown should have figured out a way stay together. both needed each other more than they realized, and both suffered irreparable harm.

This is true!

[marv2]

Perhaps ABC Records had better management by the early 70s when the 4 Tops signed up?

This is true also!!!

[Motown Queen]

Interesting question that I always wanted to know the answer to. I also wondered why HDH didn't reach out to Flo after she left.

[Motown Queen]

i realize martha reeves was still signed to motown, but "band of gold" sounds like a perfect heartbreaker written just for her.

it seems like such a mistake in retrospect ... hdh and motown should have figured out a way stay together. both needed each other more than they realized, and both suffered irreparable harm.
That song did sound like it was written for Martha. Want Ads also sounds like something Martha could've sung and Give Me Just A little More Time sounds like it was written for Levi's voice. So then you start to think, Just imagine how many 70's hits The Tops and Martha and The Vandellas would've had if they never left Motown.

[Motown Queen]

I know that Florence wasn't allow to use the Supremes name but that shouldn't have stop the radio dj's from mentioning it
Those DJ's could've been scared that if they did that, Motown wouldn't allow them to play their records. Just my take on it.

[marv2]

those dj's could've been scared that if they did that, motown wouldn't allow them to play their records. Just my take on it.

bingo~!!!!!

[supremester]

Motown had no control over which stations played their records and it is absolutely contrary to the essence of the record biz to reject air play, but it doesn't matter because ANY station can play ANY record as long as they pay the fees. If WABC played Flo's 45, is Motown going to tell them, "We don't want The Supremes' new single played on the #1 station in NYC???" No, they would not. They could, if they wanted, give competing stations advance copies of a hot new record, but that's all they had.
In any event, Motown didn't have to discourage air play of Flo's singles because the first one stunk [[as a 45 intended for radio) and the second was only OK. Take off the intro and it was below OK but fun for a huge Flo fan like me. Those singles were no threat to anyone except Flo.
HDH didn't reach out to Flo for the same reason that no one reached out to Flo - she wasn't a pop singer at all and despite having a strong voice, most of her vocals were amateurish. It made perfect sense for HDH to get a hit on Flo - they both left Motown at the same time and it would have been a huge slap on the face to the enemy. They could have given Band Of Gold to Flo - her name was bigger than Freda's at the time. I wish HDH had done her album, there's only one cut that had a chance - Like You Babe. Maybe it was recorded after ABC gave up.

I don't know about the first one, but I know Love Ain't Love was promoted.


Those DJ's could've been scared that if they did that, Motown wouldn't allow them to play their records. Just my take on it.

[supremester]

They may have - I don't know much about the workings of ABC except that they had HUGE acts at the time: Three Dog Night, Steppenwolf, Grassroots, Mamas & Papas.......
Perhaps ABC Records had better management by the early 70s when the 4 Tops signed up?

[honest man]

Interesting question that I always wanted to know the answer to. I also wondered why HDH didn't reach out to Flo after she left. maybe the answer is in your question.

[honest man]

Apologies the answer in thread 7

[honest man]

Band OF Gold is perfect as it stands in my opinion,But would have suited Martha and Vandellas maybe answer to Third Finger left hand,in some kind of way,cheers.

[thisoldheart]

i always felt that the chairmen of the board's "give me just a little more time" was a poor reading of a song intended for the four tops. but that frieda payne was spot on for "band of gold" ... but, i still can't help wondering if those songs were already in hdh's mind for the tops and martha, and perhaps even written during their work slow down at motown ... it is surprising how poor hdh's song output was post motown. i think it goes to show that there were a whole lotta elements that worked together to make a motown hit, and if one of those elements [[like the funk bros, andantes, lead singers, arrangers, gordy, ...) and a major element [[hdh) were not in the mix, then the product would be inferior. i don't know who hdh worked with post motown, but the songs don't have the power of a classic hdh motown song. it's a sad story of miserliness and perhaps greed. that kind of story always ends in grief!

btw ... "want ads" by the honeycone is not an hdh song, nor does it sound like one. i will stretch my neck out on a limb and say "band of gold" was hdh's last very good song.

[144man]

If you remember that "Edith Wayne" was a pseudonym for HDH, I don't agree that their post-Motown output was poor; which is why I am buying the upcoming complete Invictus/ Hot Wax/ Music Merchant box-set.

I don't normally have any problem imagining one artist singing another artist's songs [[I can even imagine Levi Stubbs singing "Wonderwall" or Brenda Holloway "Like A Rolling Stone"), but I can't get my head round Martha Reeves singing "Band of Gold".

[mofreaktown]

I also don't think HDH's output was poor after Motown and I also plan to get the box set. However, I do not think it was of the same caliber as when they were with Motown. While I think both Motown and HDH would have been both better off if there had been no falling out, it seemed after HDH left, Motown was able to rely on all their other writers and producers. I believe in 1968 they had an incredible number of hits with 5 singles in the top 10 at the same time. While HDH were still writing hits then, it didn't seem to be at the same pace or quality as their Motown years.

[BigAl]

Interesting question that I always wanted to know the answer to. I also wondered why HDH didn't reach out to Flo after she left.

For all I know they might have, but I rather doubt it. After all the bad blood between HDH and Motown, it could have had legal ramifications. Who knows what legalities were involved in their severance agreement. Sadder, but more likely the reason, was that Florence's mercurial behavior during the last leg of her hitch with The Supremes, plus her emotional instability and substance issues, all could have made her much more of a liability than an asset to HDH at a time when their success on their own was uncertain.

[carole cucumber]

For all I know they might have, but I rather doubt it. After all the bad blood between HDH and Motown, it could have had legal ramifications. Who knows what legalities were involved in their severance agreement. Sadder, but more likely the reason, was that Florence's mercurial behavior during the last leg of her hitch with The Supremes, plus her emotional instability and substance issues, all could have made her much more of a liability than an asset to HDH at a time when their success on their own was uncertain.

To borrow a quote "Bingo"

[carole cucumber]

Perhaps ABC Records had better management by the early 70s when the 4 Tops signed up?

Here's what Duke Fakir says in TCMSC Vol. 12 B
"Larry Maxwell, a promotion man and a good friend of the Tops, became our manager.
He connected us to ABC-Dunhill Records and its president, Jay Lasker, and the producers Dennis Lambert, Brian Potter and Steve Barri. We were floored when they played us tracks for 'Ain't No Woman [[Like The One I Got)' and 'Keeper Of The Castle'. Right away we said ' We'd like to stay in town and make a deal''. ......
ABC allowed us our own publishing and we could put four or five songs on each album. ....
We could fly out to California, lay up at the Hilton while we recorded. We were having fun and loving it. We could stand on our own.'

[thomas96]

Here's what Duke Fakir says in TCMSC Vol. 12 B
"Larry Maxwell, a promotion man and a good friend of the Tops, became our manager.
He connected us to ABC-Dunhill Record
s and its president, Jay Lasker, and the producers Dennis Lambert, Brian Potter and Steve Barri. We were floored when they played us tracks for 'Ain't No Woman [[Like The One I Got)' and 'Keeper Of The Castle'. Right away we said ' We'd like to stay in town and make a deal''. ......
ABC allowed us our own publishing and we could put four or five songs on each album. ....
We could fly out to California, lay up at the Hilton while we recorded. We were having fun and loving it. We could stand on our own.'

Thanks for this. I'd assume HDH would want creative control over the Tops just as they did when they were at Motown. Tops wouldn't have gone for it.

[mofreaktown]

Sometimes the answer is in the most obvious places. Carole, thanks for the response. I have all the TCMSC volumes but never picked up on this comment. I must admit that I am still a bit puzzled though. I thought I remember reading that the 4 Tops had a special relationship with HDH and felt that they tailored made the music for the 4 Tops but having control over publishing and some control over the music is a big incentive.

[carole cucumber]

......I must admit that I am still a bit puzzled though. I thought I remember reading that the 4 Tops had a special relationship with HDH and felt that they tailored made the music for the 4 Tops but having control over publishing and some control over the music is a big incentive.

Duke also addresses that point in the same interview.
"I was deeply hurt when Holland Dozier and Holland left Motown in '68. it didn't make sense why they would leave or why they and Berry couldn't come to an agreement; this was their train to ride. Lamont and I were very close, but I could never find out just exactly what had happened.
We all stayed friends. The group was proud that H-D-H were still doing their thing. "

Duke then mentions that other producers were unsure what to do with the Tops. Then Berry suggested Frank Wilson. Although the Tops liked working with Frank ... he writes

"And yet... we weren't as excited about 'Still Waters Run Deep' as we would have been working with H-D-H. We thought the stuff was really good. We didn't think it was super great.

It's quite possible that after H-D-H's initial chart success at Invictus & Hot Wax, the Tops may have felt that the quality diminished , so that by 1972, H-D-H releases though really good were not super great.
And as Duke notes- he and Lamont were very close. Lamont may have privately shared with him some of the struggles that would lead to Lamont's breaking away from the H-D-H partnership and signing with ABC as a solo artist in 1973. [[ It wouldn't surprise me if Duke suggested that he come over to the label on which the Tops were now recording and enjoying revitalized chart action and popularity).

[bradsupremes]

Eddie Holland once said in the Band Of Gold: Invictus/Hot Wax documentary that when HDH were beginning to have their riff with Motown in 1967 that he originally proposed to Berry Gordy about HDH having their own label within Motown and having two or three artists they would oversee. Who would those artists have been? The Supremes and the Four Tops? New artists? If new artists, would they still write and produce for the Supremes and Tops?

[radionixon]

The songs that would have been most suitable for the Tops ended up with Chairmen of the Board. Would there have been room for both groups on a fledgling label?

I've often thought that Invictus/Hot Wax had a kind of "counterpart" strategy, where HDH [[deliberately?) had a counterpart to what Motown was doing in each sphere circa 1969/70 - not that the acts were necessarily similar per se, but that I could imagine the material being given to their Motown counterpart without much alteration. So as well as Chairmen/Tops, you could argue 100 Proof Aged In Soul / Temptations, Honey Cone / Vandellas, Freda / Supremes and so on...

[thisoldheart]

I also don't think HDH's output was poor after Motown and I also plan to get the box set. However, I do not think it was of the same caliber as when they were with Motown. While I think both Motown and HDH would have been both better off if there had been no falling out, it seemed after HDH left, Motown was able to rely on all their other writers and producers. I believe in 1968 they had an incredible number of hits with 5 singles in the top 10 at the same time. While HDH were still writing hits then, it didn't seem to be at the same pace or quality as their Motown years.
whoa! firstly, i must admit my post motown hdh knowledge is limited but hdh rarely sound like even shadows of their former selves on inviticus. with the exception of "in and out of love" hdh's late work with motown is very solid even if the work did not chart as well as previously. their very last motown songs, "you keep running away", "forever came today" and "i'm in a different world" were solid and interesting.

once they started their own company they seem to lack the knack to pick singers that had the vocal stature that gordy's motown had. "give me just a little more time" is the type of song that would have been a great four tops "b" side, but never an "a" side. and the chairman of the board were cheap imitations of the tops. berry could pick singers. hdh seem to lack talent in that department. the honeycone are a novelty act that hdh would never have worked with at motown because they would never been signed. the apex of their inviticus work is the shining, though tarnished lone single "band of gold". frieda payne is great, the melody is too, but the words and story seem more like what the supremes were forced to sing after hdh's departure [[kinda like "i'm living in shame") ... and all of the production seems cheap, even though hdh were using bits and pieces of motown session players. as much as i think berry gordy made many horrendous decisions at motown, he was impeccable at signing talent, and usually ... up to a point ... knew what a hit single sounded like.

i just don't quite get how hdh failed so miserably on their own, except to say that they were songwriters and did not know how to put a label together. it's a sad story, but one that keeps me from wanting to own the multi-disc inviticus boxed set. if anyone can direct me to post motown work by hdh that rivals their motown work i will certainly listen ... but i haven't heard anything that makes me think hdh had anything to offer without the very controlled atmosphere that motown provided for them.

... and don't get me wrong ... hdh are probably my favorite songwriters. their quick demise is just very unsettling to me!

[BigAl]

Much, if not most, of the "Magic of Motown" was the presence of so many talented and creative human elements clustered in the same place at the same time, and their ability to connect positively with each other. The label had arguably the best A&R team around and performers were paired optimally with writer/producers. During Hitsville's "golden age" [[which, to my view, was 1964 through 1967) the Supremes and Tops fared best with HDH, the Marvelettes and Mary Wells with Smokey, the Tempts with Smokey and later with Whitfield, Marvin/Tammi and later Diana with Ashford & Simpson, and the list goes on and on. [[Sadly, Martha & the Vandellas never truly clicked consistently with any particular writing/production team. Same for Marvin before he took control of things for himself.) Then there were all the phenomenal side-men and side-women: the Funks, the Originals, the Andantes.

Motown also had a crack marketing and legal staff, and Gordy was a shrewd businessperson. In addition, the top acts at the label sounded like no one else. All had distinctive and readily identifiable sounds. The Invictus/Hot Wax singers, while all very capable, were not so unique. HDH could not have achieved or even approached this kind of synergy in a million years on their own, and that's not their fault. Their work at Invictus/Hot Wax was wonderful, but after having worked in such an environment of collaboration they were suddenly working almost in a vacuum. It's a shame they couldn't have worked out a satisfactory agreement with Hitsville but, as the old saying goes, familiarity breeds contempt, and often in human relationships, what begins auspiciously ends disappointingly.

[thisoldheart]

so where is all that wonderful hdh inviticus/hotwax material? i've been trolling though wikipedia to see what hdh wrote [[under their pseudonym), and racing over to utube to check out songs. i have been totally unimpressed.

put some links in for fave hdh inviticus/hotwax faves. i wanna hear them!

[marv2]

so where is all that wonderful hdh inviticus/hotwax material? i've been trolling though wikipedia to see what hdh wrote [[under their pseudonym), and racing over to utube to check out songs. i have been totally unimpressed.

put some links in for fave hdh inviticus/hotwax faves. i wanna hear them!

Here's one:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfN4ZglirjE

[marv2]

Here's another :


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGQizt8o6gU

[thomas96]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iULz3s5Dvsg

One of my favorites.

[bradsupremes]

I've always loved HDH's work on Invictus/Hot Wax although I will admit the song quality pales in comparison to their work at Motown. However, I wonder if the lack of quality had anything to do with the fact they were running their own record company and spending less time on the writing and production values like they had been doing at Motown.

"You've Got Me Dangling On A String," "Everything's Tuesday," "The Day I Found Myself," "He's In My Life", etc. are leaps and bounds better in quality than some of their crappy tunes they wrote at Motown like "Third Finger, Left Hand."

Honey Cone's "Sunday Morning People" sounds like it was cut in Studio A at Hitsville. To me, you can fool even some of the Motown experts into thinking it was cut at Hitsville.

[motony]

I remember Jr. Walker doing a real good version of "I'm So Glad" on Soul and it musta been when the Hollands returned to Motown in later 70's, about the same time they did "Get The Cream Off The Top" with Eddie Kendrick and "Just A Little Bit of You" by Michael Jackson.

[marv2]

I've always loved HDH's work on Invictus/Hot Wax although I will admit the song quality pales in comparison to their work at Motown. However, I wonder if the lack of quality had anything to do with the fact they were running their own record company and spending less time on the writing and production values like they had been doing at Motown.

"You've Got Me Dangling On A String," "Everything's Tuesday," "The Day I Found Myself," "He's In My Life", etc. are leaps and bounds better in quality than some of their crappy tunes they wrote at Motown like "Third Finger, Left Hand."

Honey Cone's "Sunday Morning People" sounds like it was cut in Studio A at Hitsville. To me, you can fool even some of the Motown experts into thinking it was cut at Hitsville.

Good picks Brad!

[marv2]

I remember Jr. Walker doing a real good version of "I'm So Glad" on Soul and it musta been when the Hollands returned to Motown in later 70's, about the same time they did "Get The Cream Off The Top" with Eddie Kendrick and "Just A Little Bit of You" by Michael Jackson.

Motony, I always wondered what in the heck were they thinking when they wrote and released "Get The Cream Off the Top"! LOL!!!!

[motony]

that's my fave Eddie Kendrick solo record! and "Just a Little Bit Of you" is my fave Michael Jackson record.They sounded like they were recorded in Detroit.

[marv2]

that's my fave Eddie Kendrick solo record! and "Just a Little Bit Of you" is my fave Michael Jackson record.They sounded like they were recorded in Detroit.


I love it and "Happy" ,but you know what that song is about , right? LOL!

[marv2]

that's my fave Eddie Kendrick solo record! and "Just a Little Bit Of you" is my fave Michael Jackson record.They sounded like they were recorded in Detroit.

They both were recorded in LA. Eddie was still living in Detroit at the time however and have to fly back and forth to LA to record.

[thomas96]

I've always loved HDH's work on Invictus/Hot Wax although I will admit the song quality pales in comparison to their work at Motown. However, I wonder if the lack of quality had anything to do with the fact they were running their own record company and spending less time on the writing and production values like they had been doing at Motown.

"You've Got Me Dangling On A String," "Everything's Tuesday," "The Day I Found Myself," "He's In My Life", etc. are leaps and bounds better in quality than some of their crappy tunes they wrote at Motown like "Third Finger, Left Hand."

Honey Cone's "Sunday Morning People" sounds like it was cut in Studio A at Hitsville. To me, you can fool even some of the Motown experts into thinking it was cut at Hitsville.

Love those songs, and agree that HDH's quality at Motown was better. But their stuff on their own labels was still amazing.


I remember Jr. Walker doing a real good version of "I'm So Glad" on Soul and it musta been when the Hollands returned to Motown in later 70's, about the same time they did "Get The Cream Off The Top" with Eddie Kendrick and "Just A Little Bit of You" by Michael Jackson.

Yeah, I've heard Junior's version. For some reason I've never really loved it. I feel like the sax is a little out of place on the song. Do you know how long Brian and Eddie had returned for?

[motony]

I always thought it strange that in a couple of different interviews over the years, Edna Wright[[Honey Cone lead singer) maintained that her contract was with Motown.Just because HDH were Creative Powerhouses, doesn't mean they were great businessmen & evidently the people handling the business end were not in the same league as Motown.

[thisoldheart]

i do thank all of you for your suggestions for post motown work by hdh. i liked some of them ... but not a single song had the depth of sound, a melody, or lyrics that were even close to what hdh were doing at motown. i am not saying that i believe they should have replicated their motown sound, but quite honestly, i think work done by stax or hi records was much better than hdh's output on inviticus/hotwax. they seem to be trying for a grittier sound, but it comes off sounding so much less sophisticated than the motown work that i wouldn't even believe they were the writers & producers of this work. listening to this work makes me realize how much motown was a team because very few managed to have a better artistic career post motown.

... and whatsup with whoever was dissin' "third finger, left hand"? that's a "b" side mini masterpiece! thanks again ... but i remain unconvinced ....

[marv2]

i do thank all of you for your suggestions for post motown work by hdh. i liked some of them ... but not a single song had the depth of sound, a melody, or lyrics that were even close to what hdh were doing at motown. i am not saying that i believe they should have replicated their motown sound, but quite honestly, i think work done by stax or hi records was much better than hdh's output on inviticus/hotwax. they seem to be trying for a grittier sound, but it comes off sounding so much less sophisticated than the motown work that i wouldn't even believe they were the writers & producers of this work. listening to this work makes me realize how much motown was a team because very few managed to have a better artistic career post motown.

... and whatsup with whoever was dissin' "third finger, left hand"? that's a "b" side mini masterpiece! thanks again ... but i remain unconvinced ....

"third finger, left hand..... was a hit record in Philly!

[thomas96]

i do thank all of you for your suggestions for post motown work by hdh. i liked some of them ... but not a single song had the depth of sound, a melody, or lyrics that were even close to what hdh were doing at motown. i am not saying that i believe they should have replicated their motown sound, but quite honestly, i think work done by stax or hi records was much better than hdh's output on inviticus/hotwax. they seem to be trying for a grittier sound, but it comes off sounding so much less sophisticated than the motown work that i wouldn't even believe they were the writers & producers of this work. listening to this work makes me realize how much motown was a team because very few managed to have a better artistic career post motown.

... and whatsup with whoever was dissin' "third finger, left hand"? that's a "b" side mini masterpiece! thanks again ... but i remain unconvinced ....

You can't really compare HDH to Stax... Stax is purely southern soul, and HDH was producing more 70s funk/soul. I agree that their material at Motown was better. Doesn't take away from what they did at their own labels.

[bradsupremes]

Invictus/Hot Wax is its own distinctive sound, yet closest any record company got to sounding like Motown. This is due to HDH's writing and production [[along with other former Motown writers & producers) and the usage of the Funk Brothers in their recordings.

Everyone's entitled into their own opinion, but I do not understand all of the praise over "Third Finger, Left Hand." To me, it's far from HDH's best work. To me, gems like "Leave It In The Hands Of Love" and "One Way Out" are some of HDH's underrated masterpieces.

[snakepit]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AX7kd6HHQNc

[snakepit]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAAUV02A6Jg

[snakepit]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E42R25UjURY

[snakepit]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFNpprgPoBU

[snakepit]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgsJcggLBtw

[MIKEW-UK]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXwAKEMS3ls

[MIKEW-UK]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DC0tbXf6zRs

[MIKEW-UK]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FD0yZa_j63k

[MIKEW-UK]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjFZkDEhkF8

[MIKEW-UK]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRAzzL3R0XU

[MIKEW-UK]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTvm3d8Pw9o

[MIKEW-UK]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMXyexCmUJw

[Nothing But Soul]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMXyexCmUJw

Great pick, Mike. I totally missed hearing "Love Factory" when the record was out in 1973. In fact, the first time I heard it was on the Invictus Soul Box Set that came out in 2008. It's now one of my favorite HDH productions.

[thisoldheart]

thanks all! you have given me an education. but many of these links are to hdh productions and not to songs written and produced by them ... but the inviticus label does have a consistent sound. surprisingly, it sounds nothing like the late, very intricate songs that hdh layed down at motown. inviticus's singers are much rougher around the edges and do not seem to have the powerful individuality of reeves, stubbs, isley, ross, etc. the label does not have the polish of motown, but perhaps hdh no longer wanted that, which seems odd because hdh were always using the smooth sounds if the andantes to augment their later motown records.

i personally don't care for the direction hdh took after leaving motown, especially since they seemed to be continually building on their previous songs at motown. to hear them step back into a less complex way of writing and producing is a disappointment to me.

despite all of your examples i don't see a case that shows anything but a steep decline in hdh's authority as songwriters and producers. the inviticus work is an interesting postscript to an amazing career at motown, and not much more. i will still not be buying that huge soon to be released boxed set, but if anyone wants to send it to me as a gift. i won't refuse!

[roger]

i will still not be buying that huge soon to be released boxed set, but if anyone wants to send it to me as a gift. i won't refuse!

thisoldheart LOL ... :)

I won't be buying that boxed set either, but in my case it is because I already have multiple copies of most of the tracks either on C.D. or Vinyl.

Personally, although I like most of HDH's Invictus/Hot-Wax/Music-Merchant output I find that I play it very infrequently compared with their Motown output in the 1963-67 period.

Incidentally, have HDH ever publically acknowledged that they wrote early hits on their label "Band of Gold"/"Give Me Just a Little More Time"/"While You're Out Looking For Sugar" etc. as although everybody "knows" that they wrote them the releases still omit them from the songwriting credits in favour of "Dunbar/Wayne"

As far as I can recall the first time that they ever appeared as songwriters was on "Chairman of The Board" by THE CHAIRMEN OF THE BOARD in late 1971 ....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AVL-ZVMGJs

Roger

[thisoldheart]

roger, i know that hdh wrote under different names. but of the examples posted here, most are written with someone else or not written by hdh at all. just because someone was on inviticus didn't mean hdh were going to write and produce every song for them. the poor guys seem exhausted enough by the time they started their label!

[MIKEW-UK]

My personal take - When I first heard the Invictus / Hot Wax / Music Merchant recordings issued by Holland Dozier Holland, I never did think that the sound / tonal mixes, instrumentation and composition were a facsimile of the Motown sound. Generally I think it fair to say the Invictus sound was differentiated significantly from Motown Hitsville recordings. I think there were a number of reasons why the recordings were so differentiated - the studio, mixing, definitely the instrumentation / arrangements, and the musicians. McKinley Jackson played a huge role in arrangements at Invictus, and threw the spotlight on guitars, keyboards and bass, with rhythm being the hallmark. Choppy guitars drove the whole thing, whether fast or slow paced recordings. They assembled a crew of cast of musicians who were used constantly as the equivalent of the Funk Brothers - Mckinley Jackson keyboards / arrangements - Ray Parker Jr with ver y distinctive choppy playing style, Tony Newton Bass, Dennis Coffey fuzz guitar, Greg Perry keyboards. Whilst many of the players had played as backing musicians for motown artists on tour, generally they had not been in studios recording for motown as fully fledged funk brothers. I also believe HDH were looking for a harder edge sound than characterised by motown. Finally, HDH were for the first time running their own business, with all the issues that entailed - contracts , legal, finance, cash flow, distribution, artist roster, artwork, studio. At Motown they could dedicate themselves to the creative side of the house. With their own set up, they had to distribute their energies across many different functions. The end result was that the Invictus sound started to become somewhat formulaic.... nevertheless I loved it for its distinctiveness and vibrant sounds.... I'd welcome your comments, I may be totally incorrect in my analysis and facts.....:cool:

Here's a classic which epitomises everything I was trying to describe........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--fFhunuUJM

[roger]

roger, i know that hdh wrote under different names. but of the examples posted here, most are written with someone else or not written by hdh at all. just because someone was on inviticus didn't mean hdh were going to write and produce every song for them. the poor guys seem exhausted enough by the time they started their label!

Well thisoldheart, I imagine that when HDH left Motown they had a handful of songs that they were halfway through writing and I have no difficulty in believing that "Give Me Just a Little More Time" by CHAIRMEN OF THE BOARD was a song that was a hang-over from 1967 and originally written with the FOUR TOPS or SUPREMES in mind. The structure of the song is classic HDH with all those looping riffs and repetitive piano parts.

I think it is now well established that "Edith Wayne" was a pseudonym for the threesome, though I'm not sure how RONALD DUNBAR fitted in on the songwriting side of things.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzzWF79OG98

Otherwise I agree with you that most of the links posted have been of songs where HDH's involvement was as a "production team" which could mean anything from being fully involved to them merely signing off the final mix and agreeing that the record could be released!!

I think we also need to take into account that the popular music world in 1970/71/72 was very different to that in 1964/65/66 when HDH were at their peak at Motown in that the cult of the "singer-songwriter" had firmly taken root which was good for the likes of CURTIS MAYFIELD/ISAAC HAYES/STEVIE WONDER etc. but not so much for vocal acts backed by production teams [[of course this was about to go into reverse with the arrival of "Disco"), so I think that is why Invictus/Hot Wax were aiming for a "rougher" sound.

Having said that, I think it is interesting that LAMONT DOZIER effectively re-launched himself as a "singer-songwriter" during the Invictus years, [[essentially "HOLLAND-DOZIER" was actually Mr Dozier on his own) which makes me think that the Holland brothers concentrated more on the business end of things during the time they had their labels.

Roger

[144man]

I've always liked the Jones Girls' "Your Love Controls Me", which has the distinction of having been written by Holland-Dozier, Dunbar, Wayne.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmm-SzfwRJQ

[thisoldheart]

I've always liked the Jones Girls' "Your Love Controls Me", which has the distinction of having been written by Holland-Dozier, Dunbar, Wayne.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmm-SzfwRJQ
what year is this from? this sounds more like hdh did in their heyday at motown, except there is no driving funk bros big beat, the song is weak, and that poor jones girl on lead would never have gotten a job at motown in 1966!

[theboyfromxtown]

Shirley Jones sings lead on Your Love Controls Me.

[roger]

"Your Love Controls Me" is from 1972 thisoldheart .. interesting that it is credited to "Edith Wayne" as well as "Holland Dozier" ...

Roger

[Sotosound]

I just listened to the instrumental mix of "Give Me Just A Little More Time" and it shows that the backing track, in terms of both arrangement and playing, is absolutely straight to the point with nothing left to the imagination. In essence, it's out and out pop. When you've heard it then you've heard it.

If I consider classic Motown, however, there's always something to be discovered after a few listens. Perhaps some neat guitar licks from Joe Messina or Marv Tarplin, or some great piano playing by Earl Van Dyke or Johnny Griffiths. When it comes to Invictus and Hot Wax, however, these things just aren't there in the same measure.

There's pop and funk and even some country but in the main there ain't no jazz. Ok, there are some exceptions but these are rare.

PS I could have started this thread in three ways, the Uriel Jones way [[Now, I have just listened....), the Benny Benjamin way [[I have just listened...) or the Pistol way [[Just listened...).

[radionixon]

As Roger said above, the world had changed, tastes had changed. The big difficulty is comparing the HDH of 1971 with the HDH of 1966 [[which I suppose is always likely to disappoint), when maybe a fairer comparison would be to compare these Invictus sides with what Motown were doing in 1971 without them.

[theboyfromxtown]

And I have to say that I preferred the HDH of 1971 to Motown of 1971.

[Sotosound]

As Roger said above, the world had changed, tastes had changed. The big difficulty is comparing the HDH of 1971 with the HDH of 1966 [[which I suppose is always likely to disappoint), when maybe a fairer comparison would be to compare these Invictus sides with what Motown were doing in 1971 without them.

That's a valid point. Motown was split across two coasts and had gone down the pop route with the J5. Most of the arrangements were also more formal and carefully orchestrated right down to the drums, whereas in 1966 - 1968 things were much looser and The Funk Brothers hit a groove and held it for the duration of the track.

Strangely enough, the Philly sound brought back some of that jazz.

[snakepit]

HDH box set reduced on Amazon Uk..now only £49

[bradsupremes]

HDH box set reduced on Amazon Uk..now only £49

I really want the HDH box set, but it's out of my budget.