Supremes Rock a bye your baby

[soulballad]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DDvIQfCI4k

[Methuselah2]

I don't think I've seen that since it aired in '65. Very enjoyable. And those dresses just might have been the tightest The Supremes ever wore. Literally poured into them, they looked terrific. Thanks for posting Soulballad.

[supremester]

Thank You for sharing this rare treat!

[Roger Polhill]

A clip from the Red Skelton Show 27th. Jan. 1966.

[antceleb12]

Although I never enjoyed their rendition of "Rockabye" [[Judy Garland's is far superior and definitive), their choreography for this piece is top-notch. Great find!

[milven]

Although I never enjoyed their rendition of "Rockabye" [[Judy Garland's is far superior and definitive), their choreography for this piece is top-notch. Great find!

Although I liked Judy's , my favorite version is the original by Al Jolson. He was popular way before my time. But I knew of him and liked him.

But this thread reminded me that there was a version in the top ten when I was a kid and the artist wasn't even a singer. Jerry Lewis had a top ten hit with this song

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpEjL4HhI2U


And the first time I ever heard of Aretha, she was singing her top forty version of the song which she recorded for Columbia before her Atlantic years

[smark21]

Al Jolson was the first to sing it [[or at least hit with it). He performed that song in blackface in the 20s. When was this song finally ditched from the Supremes' act?

[marv2]

I, and I am sure there were others who could not appreciate this performance here. This is during the time I believe Berry had gone too far.......

[antceleb12]

Al Jolson was the first to sing it [[or at least hit with it). He performed that song in blackface in the 20s. When was this song finally ditched from the Supremes' act?

It's funny, because Jolson was also a huge champion for civil rights.

[marv2]

It's funny, because Jolson was also a huge champion for civil rights.

That is not true at all! It was screenwriter Ben Hecht [[who worked with Jolson once...) was active in the promotion of civil rights.

Al Jolson's "act" was disgustingly racist then as it would be now! Doesn't matter because he is very dead now........

[antceleb12]

That is not true at all! It was screenwriter Ben Hecht [[who worked with Jolson once...) was active in the promotion of civil rights.

Al Jolson's "act" was disgustingly racist then as it would be now! Doesn't matter because he is very dead now........

Let me rephrase that. It's funny, because Jolson considered himself a promoter of African-American music and a fighter for rights for blacks in the performance industry.

Now...I don't know how much of that is actually true, but that IS how Jolson is seen by many, as well as himself...

[marv2]

Let me rephrase that. It's funny, because Jolson considered himself a promoter of African-American music and a fighter for rights for blacks in the performance industry.

Now...I don't know how much of that is actually true, but that IS how Jolson is seen by many, as well as himself...

Al Jolson was an opportunist! He made himself up in black face at the suggestion of another performer at the time. He did it to make money and become famous. He gave no thought to hurting the image and collective self-esteem of an entire group of people that were already catching Hell in America. There were some black performers during his era that even praised him for opening doors for REAL black performers and assisting in the acceptance of jazz music among the white masses [[ how sad and sick is that?) . He is now probably where all demons go......

[antceleb12]

Al Jolson was an opportunist! He made himself up in black face at the suggestion of another performer at the time. He did it to make money and become famous. He gave no thought to hurting the image and collective self-esteem of an entire group of people that were already catching Hell in America. There were some black performers during his era that even praised him for opening doors for REAL black performers and assisting in the acceptance of jazz music among the white masses [[ how sad and sick is that?) . He is now probably where all demons go......

Again, I'll add that Jolson's intentions are debatable, but despite his blackface performances, he is still revered by many people today.

[marv2]

Again, I'll add that Jolson's intentions are debatable, but despite his blackface performances, he is still revered by many people today.

There is nothing to debate when it comes to Al Jolson. He knew exactly what he was doing when he put on black face over and over and over and went out to perform in front of all white audiences.


The debate for me here is what in the Hell was Berry Gordy thinking when he had the Supremes go on national television in the midst of the Civil Rights struggle and sing this disgusting song about Dixie? Was he really that desparate to "crossover" that he gave up some of his pride as a black man in America?

[antceleb12]

There is nothing to debate when it comes to Al Jolson. He knew exactly what he was doing when he put on black face over and over and over and went out to perform in front of all white audiences.

For the third time, I'M not arguing for Jolson's case, but merely comparing his actions with how he is perceived.

[daviddh]

great clip, thanks
these gowns would have been better at the copa then the blue ones

[kenneth]

I totally agree that seeing Jolson or Garland or any of these performers perform in black face makes for extremely uncomfortable viewing today, but does it necessarily mean the performers were racist? That type of entertainment was mainstream at the time, as mean spirited as it may have been at its core. I don't know enough about Jolson to argue either way; I'm just not sure you can conclude he was racist by the fact that he did those minstrel numbers.

[supremester]

A) You know nothing about Al Jolson - he was a civil rights pioneer and known to be that, you imbecile.
B) Performing in black face was not an indication of racism in the first half of the century. It was a form of musical entertainment from decades before. When the NAACP took exception to the practice, all singers sensitive to the black cause ceased the routines immediately.
C) MANY black performers before, during and after civil rights performed this song. Ever hear of Lena Horne, Sammy Davis or Aretha Franklin?
D) After the YEARS of your homophobic hatred being spewed all over the internet, I cannot believe you have the cahoonas to even mention anything of the kind. You are free to feel and speak as you please, but know that your hate filled rhetoric against any group makes you the equivalent of ANY hate filled bigot against ANY group. I'm not going to sully this forum with your vile sputum, but anyone who would like examples of your venom may contact me privately.
E) Berry Gordy gave up NONE of his pride - Motown did more for civil rights than you obviously can comprehend. Two years after this clip aired, Diana Ross performed Afro Vogue to an audience who tuned in to see Baby Love, until it segued into Somewhere and a Free At Last speech.
There is nothing to debate when it comes to Al Jolson. He knew exactly what he was doing when he put on black face over and over and over and went out to perform in front of all white audiences.


The debate for me here is what in the Hell was Berry Gordy thinking when he had the Supremes go on national television in the midst of the Civil Rights struggle and sing this disgusting song about Dixie? Was he really that desparate to "crossover" that he gave up some of his pride as a black man in America?

[honest man]

A) You know nothing about Al Jolson - he was a civil rights pioneer and known to be that, you imbecile.
B) Performing in black face was not an indication of racism in the first half of the century. It was a form of musical entertainment from decades before. When the NAACP took exception to the practice, all singers sensitive to the black cause ceased the routines immediately.
C) MANY black performers before, during and after civil rights performed this song. Ever hear of Lena Horne, Sammy Davis or Aretha Franklin?
D) After the YEARS of your homophobic hatred being spewed all over the internet, I cannot believe you have the cahoonas to even mention anything of the kind. You are free to feel and speak as you please, but know that your hate filled rhetoric against any group makes you the equivalent of ANY hate filled bigot against ANY group. I'm not going to sully this forum with your vile sputum, but anyone who would like examples of your venom may contact me privately.
E) Berry Gordy gave up NONE of his pride - Motown did more for civil rights than you obviously can comprehend. Two years after this clip aired, Diana Ross performed Afro Vogue to an audience who tuned in to see Baby Love, until it segued into Somewhere and a Free At Last speech.

Well said i really think this Marv person ,really needs to be booted off this forum .He is FOUL.

[smark21]

Here's a little blurb from 2000 about Blackface and 20th century show biz culture with mentions of Al Jolson. I wouldn't call Jolson a major political activist--his main cause was always himself as he had a huge ego and craved the spotlight. Jolson is just a very dated entertainer. Rock a Bye Baby with a Dixie Melody is similariy dated song with roots in minstrel songs [[that often celebrated plantation life during slave days) as it sentimentalizes a very ugly culture--the old South. Certainly performing this song in the mid 60s when civil rights workers were being killed and abused was in bad taste, but the song was still a razzle dazzle show biz standard. But as with a number of aspects of the supremes Copa/nightclub/Vegas act, it was looking backwards, still cashing in a lucrative market, rather than looking forward. By the way, when was it removed from their act?

http://www.musicals101.com/blackface.htm

[smark21]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Folks_at_Home

Here's info about the song Swanee River [[proper title Old Folks at Home) which is referenced in Rock a Bye Your Baby.

[milven]

It is sad to see some here call Al Jolson a racist. If you really want to read an accurate account about him, warts and all, read "JOLSON- The Legend Comes To Life" by Herbert G. Golman. Nowhere is he referred to as a racist. His biggest flaw may be that he had a huge ego. But that is also what made him the biggest star of his generation. He was billed as the World's Greatest Entertainer, a title he bestowed on himself, just as Michael bestowed himself with the title KING OF POP.

Blackface was accepted in its time, but in today's society it makes us cringe. Similar to watching an I LOVE LUCY episode and seeing Lucy and Ricky blowing cigarette smoke into Little Ricky's face.

In another thread, it was mentioned that kids of today do not know who Diana Ross is because she was popular over fifty years ago. As a kid, I knew who Al Jolson was and he was fifty years before my time. So there goes that hypothesis.

As for Rock A Bye Your Baby, it was my introduction to Aretha. Loved her voice and the arrangement. But she made a great career choice to move to Atlantic where they gave her the right materiel to become the Queen of Soul.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NHQB1LPWw8

[supremester]

Many white and black stars performed Rockabye, Swannee and others because they were good songs that pleased crowds and not for their presumed political or social content from decades ago. They were old favorites that everyone knew and most enjoyed. No one gave a thought or cared about the songs other than their entertainment value. I don't agree that it was in bad taste at all. The Supremes did change the lyric to "mommy, mine" instead of "Mammy, mine" so they were aware of the roots of the song. Aretha and Sammy Davis used the term Mammy. I was 10 when Copa came out and thought mommy mine sounded silly. I didn't know what a mammy was. I seriously doubt that Ed Sullivan, Dorothy Kilgallen or any other ringsider at The Copa was celebrating and longing for pre-Civil War days when watching DMF, Sammy, Lena Aretha, Judy or Al sing these songs.

Jolson was known for his huge ego, was it bigger than most other top entertainers of their day or today? Bigger than Kanye? I have not read that. Jolson felt his blackface routine was bringing black culture to white audiences and helping to attain acceptance. I did a fair amount of research on him in 1972 for a paper in english, but as I age, I an't remember everything or I would cite sources.

Rockabye was in the act into 1966 as they performed it at Blinstraubs. It may have been replaced by More that year, as the need for a straw hat and cane routine for the biggest US group ever diminished somewhat. Also, with Marlene Barrow working occasionally as a Supreme, I doubt that she was ever taught that routine. Aretha performed several Jolson tunes thru '67 - including Swanee and, my fave, You Made Me Love You, but I don't know if Rockabye was still in her act after she had hits at Atlantic. It was, I believe, her first top 40 single. I'll yell it out to her in June and see if she'll do it. The Supremes' version said "we belong - we are not just a rock n roll act with a few hits" and helped ingratiate them into mainstream entertainment circles so that they could very soon do Afro Vogue/Somewhere with impunity.
Here's a little blurb from 2000 about Blackface and 20th century show biz culture with mentions of Al Jolson. I wouldn't call Jolson a major political activist--his main cause was always himself as he had a huge ego and craved the spotlight. Jolson is just a very dated entertainer. Rock a Bye Baby with a Dixie Melody is similariy dated song with roots in minstrel songs [[that often celebrated plantation life during slave days) as it sentimentalizes a very ugly culture--the old South. Certainly performing this song in the mid 60s when civil rights workers were being killed and abused was in bad taste, but the song was still a razzle dazzle show biz standard. But as with a number of aspects of the supremes Copa/nightclub/Vegas act, it was looking backwards, still cashing in a lucrative market, rather than looking forward. By the way, when was it removed from their act?

http://www.musicals101.com/blackface.htm

[Lulu]

Wow. This thread got REALLY ridiculous! I first heard "Rock-A-Bye" on Garland's seminal '61 album recorded at Carnegie Hall. A short time later, many of us [[some of you here) discovered Aretha via this same tune. I assure you Judy Garland was not a "racist" and neither was Al Jolson. I knew who Jolson was but wasn't aware of his relationship to this song until much later. I'm pretty sure Garland's renditions of this song [[along with "Swanee") and even Liza's "Mammy" were homages to their family's history in vaudeville. Hell, my own mother was in a minstrel show almost 60 years ago. To dismiss this entire schtick because it is now seen as "racist" is as absurd as me going into my antique store here in town and requesting that they remove all of the vintage Mammy dolls and Aunt Jemima advertisements! It's part of our collective history, pretty or not. I also found it interesting that a certain member used the song and this clip as yet another way to throw some shade Mr. Gordy's way, implying that his desire for mass appeal [[for his "star" which is what I'm sure was being insinuated) crossed the line. Sorry to burst your bubble but if John Hammond was over at Columbia "whoring out" his later-to-be-most-revered-soul-singer-ever to record this ditty while the "No Hit Supremes" were languishing in obscurity, what's the excuse there? Sorry - no argument here. Can we go back to hacking over "Funny Girl"?

[Lulu]

Not to mention both Linda Eder AND Rufus Wainwright recorded the song in fairly recent homages to Judy Garland. I scoured many reviews of both works and not one writer went on a rant about this song...

[supremester]

Exactly. What's next - polyester jock straps?

[reese]

Aretha performed several Jolson tunes thru '67 - including Swanee and, my fave, You Made Me Love You, but I don't know if Rockabye was still in her act after she had hits at Atlantic. It was, I believe, her first top 40 single. I'll yell it out to her in June and see if she'll do it.

She might do it! She sang it off and on up through the 70s and even into the 80s. The last time I saw her perform it was in 1986, when she sang it on her Showtime cable special, as well as on the special Motown on Showtime: The Tempts and Tops.

[144man]

It's sad to see an entertainer like Al Jolson, who was Jewish and no doubt had to put up with anti-Semitic abuse, being accused of racism himself.

[marv2]

It's sad to see an entertainer like Al Jolson, who was Jewish and no doubt had to put up with anti-Semitic abuse, being accused of racism himself.

What is sad is that he chose to debase black people in order to become a star. It forced Black Americans to suffer and try to overcome these disgusting stereotypes for many, many years into the 20th Century. Everytime they applied for a job or sought to move into a neighborhood outside of the ghetto!

[milven]

What is sad is that he chose to debase black people in order to become a star. It forced Black Americans to suffer and try to overcome these disgusting stereotypes for many, many years into the 20th Century. Everytime they applied for a job or sought to move into a neighborhood outside of the ghetto!

Do you give Al Jolson all the blame, or is there enough blame to go around to all the entertainers who started their careers in minstrel shows? Here is another big star of the twenties, Eddie Cantor, who is also in blackface. He was in minstrel, vaudeville, theatre, radio, movies and finally television where he had a monthly variety show on Sundays opposite Ed Sullivan.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbX5ryEXLBE

[smark21]

Going by the replies and the defenses offered of Al Jolson and the accepted use of Blackface up to the mid 20th Century, I get the sense that many of you consider racism to just be when someone uses ugly slurs or consciously expresses or acts out hate toward African Americans. Racism is more than just your Klansmen and overt bigots. Racism and white supremacy are insidious; hegeomonic; they work their way into life in ways that can be invisible to many people in society so that they are accepted as “natural”, “normal”, “the accepted way of doing things”, “common sense”, etc. One can have good intentions, fine thoughts and admirable feelings for members of another group yet still be or occasionally reveal a racist or supremacist.

Remember back in 2008 during the primaries when Joe Biden complemented Barack Obama for being “articulate for an African American” and the blowback he received for such a condescending statement? Biden meant well, but in his good intentions he put down an entire group of people.

In the last few years the concept of microaggressions has taken route and Biden’s remark is a good example of a microaggression. Microaggressions can be used against any group of people regardless of race, gender, class, nationality, sexual orientation, or religious faith. Some microaggressors may mean well but reveal their bigotry/ignorance in their good intentions; others are more overt and revel in it. To learn more about microaggressions: http://www.microaggressions.com/

Blackface performers came out of the minstrel show tradition that took off in popularity after the Civil War. White people corked themselves up and performed songs and routines, many of which expressed a nostalgia for plantation/slavery days. Many of these people may have been opposed to slavery, but they still considered Blacks to be inferior in a childish kind of way. The messages in these shows and their songs helped spread the myth and whitewash the truth of the horrors of slavery. There are still far too many people in this country who don’t to deal with the realities of slavery as well as Jim Crow and seek refuge in lies and myths about good masters and happy slaves and freedmen who yearn to return to their master on the plantation. Swanee River/Old Folks Back Home was written by Stephen Foster, who supported abolistionist causes, but that didn’t stop him from writing a song about a freed slave who yearned to go back to the old Master’s plantation. The song is catchy, the words are very sentimental and it’s that sentiment that sweetens the ugly message of the song. How many of the white families who used to sing along to that song in their parlors swallowed the story of the song unthinkingly and let it influence their view of slavery? Many I suspect. Yet another example of the insidious effect of white supremacist ideology which can be more effective when delivered in a sweet, catchy tuneful matter rather than in an ugly way.



The popularity of minstrel shows established Blackface as an accepted way for performers to make up. And it wasn’t just Jolson and Cantor and their vaudeville imitators who corked up; it was expected of Black variety show performers as well. They had to cork up as well if they wanted to work as entertainers. Bert Williams is a prominent example. He had to cork up and he had to play the stereotypes. But he also broke ground and opened doors thanks to his talent. To learn more and see pics of him in cork: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bert_Williams

But just because Black performers had to cork doesn’t make it right. Yes, we must realize and accept on some level that it was part of the times, and in comparison to lynching and sharecropping conditions and harsh segregations, blackface performers are relatively mild on the offense scale. Even if all Blackface performers [[regardless of race) were trying to honor African American culture by corking up and performing minstrel songs, be advised that not everyone in the audience left the music hall with heightened appreciation for African Americans. Entertainment can reinforce prejudices as well as help knock down the wall of prejudices—depending on the performer, the audience, the material and a whole host of other factors.

[marv2]

Going by the replies and the defenses offered of Al Jolson and the accepted use of Blackface up to the mid 20th Century, I get the sense that many of you consider racism to just be when someone uses ugly slurs or consciously expresses or acts out hate toward African Americans. Racism is more than just your Klansmen and overt bigots. Racism and white supremacy are insidious; hegeomonic; they work their way into life in ways that can be invisible to many people in society so that they are accepted as “natural”, “normal”, “the accepted way of doing things”, “common sense”, etc. One can have good intentions, fine thoughts and admirable feelings for members of another group yet still be or occasionally reveal a racist or supremacist.

Remember back in 2008 during the primaries when Joe Biden complemented Barack Obama for being “articulate for an African American” and the blowback he received for such a condescending statement? Biden meant well, but in his good intentions he put down an entire group of people.

In the last few years the concept of microaggressions has taken route and Biden’s remark is a good example of a microaggression. Microaggressions can be used against any group of people regardless of race, gender, class, nationality, sexual orientation, or religious faith. Some microaggressors may mean well but reveal their bigotry/ignorance in their good intentions; others are more overt and revel in it. To learn more about microaggressions: http://www.microaggressions.com/

Blackface performers came out of the minstrel show tradition that took off in popularity after the Civil War. White people corked themselves up and performed songs and routines, many of which expressed a nostalgia for plantation/slavery days. Many of these people may have been opposed to slavery, but they still considered Blacks to be inferior in a childish kind of way. The messages in these shows and their songs helped spread the myth and whitewash the truth of the horrors of slavery. There are still far too many people in this country who don’t to deal with the realities of slavery as well as Jim Crow and seek refuge in lies and myths about good masters and happy slaves and freedmen who yearn to return to their master on the plantation. Swanee River/Old Folks Back Home was written by Stephen Foster, who supported abolistionist causes, but that didn’t stop him from writing a song about a freed slave who yearned to go back to the old Master’s plantation. The song is catchy, the words are very sentimental and it’s that sentiment that sweetens the ugly message of the song. How many of the white families who used to sing along to that song in their parlors swallowed the story of the song unthinkingly and let it influence their view of slavery? Many I suspect. Yet another example of the insidious effect of white supremacist ideology which can be more effective when delivered in a sweet, catchy tuneful matter rather than in an ugly way.



The popularity of minstrel shows established Blackface as an accepted way for performers to make up. And it wasn’t just Jolson and Cantor and their vaudeville imitators who corked up; it was expected of Black variety show performers as well. They had to cork up as well if they wanted to work as entertainers. Bert Williams is a prominent example. He had to cork up and he had to play the stereotypes. But he also broke ground and opened doors thanks to his talent. To learn more and see pics of him in cork: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bert_Williams

But just because Black performers had to cork doesn’t make it right. Yes, we must realize and accept on some level that it was part of the times, and in comparison to lynching and sharecropping conditions and harsh segregations, blackface performers are relatively mild on the offense scale. Even if all Blackface performers [[regardless of race) were trying to honor African American culture by corking up and performing minstrel songs, be advised that not everyone in the audience left the music hall with heightened appreciation for African Americans. Entertainment can reinforce prejudices as well as help knock down the wall of prejudices—depending on the performer, the audience, the material and a whole host of other factors.

Excellent post Smark and thank you!

Marv

[jobeterob]

What is sad is that he chose to debase black people in order to become a star. It forced Black Americans to suffer and try to overcome these disgusting stereotypes for many, many years into the 20th Century. Everytime they applied for a job or sought to move into a neighborhood outside of the ghetto!

What is sadder is that you, Marv, choose to debase all kinds of people ~ white, black, gay, female ~ very publicly, in a much more enlightened time.

Why?

[milven]

Smark, yours is the definitive post of this thread. I agree with your post and you made your points and explanations without calling some of the great entertainers of their time racists. As society changed, these entertainers had to change too or have no career. I'm old enough to remember Eddie Cantor on TV in the 50's, but he was never in blackface. It wasn't acceptable then.

Al Jolson died in 1950 and never appeared on TV. But he was a popular star right up to his dying day. During WWII, he entertained the troops - never in blackface. He , too, had given it up. So these stars did keep pace with society and changed with the times.

You mentioned Bert Williams in your post. I remember seeing Ben Vereen in concert and he paid a tribute to Bert. On stage, he put on blackface and then sang NOBODY. The segment was sad and poignant. He also did it on TV. But there must have been protests who didn't understand what Ben was trying to do, because he eventually took it out of his act, and after a search on Google, it can't be found to view. [[Just to download and purchase).

Thanks again for your post. Reading it makes reading some of the other stuff on this board tolerable.

[supremester]

While true, coming from someone who, publicly, suggested gay people "deserve" HIV for their lifestyle choice, that's a pip!


What is sad is that he chose to debase black people in order to become a star. It forced Black Americans to suffer and try to overcome these disgusting stereotypes for many, many years into the 20th Century. Everytime they applied for a job or sought to move into a neighborhood outside of the ghetto!

[supremester]

My oldest girl is African American and worked for a national retail chain with an unwritten rule concerning "blacks trying to return things." She couldn't believe such a policy exists, let alone told to HER.

[reese]

Smark, yours is the definitive post of this thread. I agree with your post and you made your points and explanations without calling some of the great entertainers of their time racists. As society changed, these entertainers had to change too or have no career. I'm old enough to remember Eddie Cantor on TV in the 50's, but he was never in blackface. It wasn't acceptable then.

Al Jolson died in 1950 and never appeared on TV. But he was a popular star right up to his dying day. During WWII, he entertained the troops - never in blackface. He , too, had given it up. So these stars did keep pace with society and changed with the times.

You mentioned Bert Williams in your post. I remember seeing Ben Vereen in concert and he paid a tribute to Bert. On stage, he put on blackface and then sang NOBODY. The segment was sad and poignant. He also did it on TV. But there must have been protests who didn't understand what Ben was trying to do, because he eventually took it out of his act, and after a search on Google, it can't be found to view. [[Just to download and purchase).

Thanks again for your post. Reading it makes reading some of the other stuff on this board tolerable.

From what I recall, Ben Vereen did his Bert Williams tribute during the inaugural celebration concert for President Reagan. Unfortunately, the segment was edited badly, and Vereen was criticized heavily for appearing in blackface before the new President. This probably was when he took it out of his act.

[marv2]

From what I recall, Ben Vereen did his Bert Williams tribute during the inaugural celebration concert for President Reagan. Unfortunately, the segment was edited badly, and Vereen was criticized heavily for appearing in blackface before the new President. This probably was when he took it out of his act.

Here's the article from Jet Magazine at the time. He created firestorm of negativity for himself. I remember this:

http://books.google.com/books?id=MLcDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA14&lpg=PA14&dq=ben+vereen+blackface+Jet+Magazine&source=bl&ots=5a-rkAI4gD&sig=XlKy1bmrJ88l7U7qt6ib2ZF77KY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=l3FYU7jqCenx2AXClIGYDQ&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=ben%20vereen%20blackface%20Jet%20Magazine&f=false

[marv2]

Further research into the "REAL" Al Jolson, led me to this :

http://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/1nwuk9/til_al_jolson_famous_for_performing_in_blackface/

[milven]

Having seen Ben perform the whole Bert Williams piece live in concert, I can say that it is a beautiful theatrical piece. I don't know why he would have wanted to do the piece at Reagan's inauguration. But , I just read the Jet article and it explains what Ben's intention was to do the piece there. But the TV audience did not get to see the second part and without seeing the whole thing, people were offended and Ben's intent was misunderstood. I wish it were available to see on line. I can only go by my memory, but I remember being immensely moved by his performance and what he was trying to tell his audience.

Read the article in JET that Marv posted

[marv2]

Having seen Ben perform the whole Bert Williams piece live in concert, I can say that it is a beautiful theatrical piece. I don't know why he would have wanted to do the piece at Reagan's inauguration. But , I just read the Jet article and it explains what Ben's intention was to do the piece there. But the TV audience did not get to see the second part and without seeing the whole thing, people were offended and Ben's intent was misunderstood. I wish it were available to see on line. I can only go by my memory, but I remember being immensely moved by his performance and what he was trying to tell his audience.

Read the article in JET that Marv posted

You are suppose to know your audience! That way there will be no room for misunderstanding. The whole incident was purely disgusting. Ben Vereen is an intelligent man from what I know of him. Why on Earth would he do something like that is beyond me!

[milven]

Read the JET article that you posted. The entire article. It continues on page 60. It explains why he did it, and what Reagan's daughter thought about it. The TV audience did not see the whole piece, so it was difficult for them to form a valid opinion and protested instead. Kinda like a theatre critic walking out of a play after ACT ONE and writing a review on something that he only half saw

[marv2]

Read the JET article that you posted. The entire article. It continues on page 60. It explains why he did it, and what Reagan's daughter thought about it. The TV audience did not see the whole piece, so it was difficult for them to form a valid opinion and protested instead. Kinda like a theatre critic walking out of a play after ACT ONE and writing a review on something that he only half saw

I can promise you this! He could have done that performance for 2 hours and had the thing broadcast in it's entirety [[sp?) and the response would have been the same from the black community!

[marv2]

Did you also read the "additional" information on Al Jolson here:

http://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/1nwuk9/til_al_jolson_famous_for_performing_in_blackface/

[Lulu]

Having seen Ben perform the whole Bert Williams piece live in concert, I can say that it is a beautiful theatrical piece. I don't know why he would have wanted to do the piece at Reagan's inauguration. But , I just read the Jet article and it explains what Ben's intention was to do the piece there. But the TV audience did not get to see the second part and without seeing the whole thing, people were offended and Ben's intent was misunderstood. I wish it were available to see on line. I can only go by my memory, but I remember being immensely moved by his performance and what he was trying to tell his audience.

Read the article in JET that Marv posted

It was Reagan's inauguration. That should be reason enough for this "performance". I'm sure Ron and Nancy would have loved to see an "Antebellum" wedding along the lines of the one Paula Deen dreamed up and discussed.

Here's a little light reading: http://reaganandracism.blogspot.com/

[milven]

Did you also read the "additional" information on Al Jolson here:

http://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/1nwuk9/til_al_jolson_famous_for_performing_in_blackface/

I thought we were now discussing Ben Vereen, but if we are still on JOLSON, as I said in an earlier post, I read "JOLSON: The Legend Comes To Life" by Herbert G Goldman. It tells all, the good the bad and the ugly, warts and all. So nothing negative said about him surprises me. And there is much to say that is negative.

Let me bring the topic back to The Supremes and bring some joy to your life at the same time by saying that JOLSON was probably a DIVA and a bitch and the Diana Ross of his generation.

FEEL GOOD ? :rolleyes:

[marv2]

I thought we were now discussing Ben Vereen, but if we are still on JOLSON, as I said in an earlier post, I read "JOLSON: The Legend Comes To Life" by Herbert G Goldman. It tells all, the good the bad and the ugly, warts and all. So nothing negative said about him surprises me. And there is much to say that is negative.

Let me bring the topic back to The Supremes and bring some joy to your life at the same time by saying that JOLSON was probably a DIVA and a bitch and the Diana Ross of his generation.

FEEL GOOD ? :rolleyes:

Whatever you say. I am just about the truth! Unfortunately, that usually does not come out in it's purest form until after the person's death.

[Lulu]

I thought we were now discussing Ben Vereen, but if we are still on JOLSON, as I said in an earlier post, I read "JOLSON: The Legend Comes To Life" by Herbert G Goldman. It tells all, the good the bad and the ugly, warts and all. So nothing negative said about him surprises me. And there is much to say that is negative.

Let me bring the topic back to The Supremes and bring some joy to your life at the same time by saying that JOLSON was probably a DIVA and a bitch and the Diana Ross of his generation.

FEEL GOOD ? :rolleyes:

Speaking of the "b-word" [[I won't waste the typing on the full word), looky what I found today [[check out comment #1)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2KYDao8j6w&sns=fb

[jobeterob]

Marv, the offended. LOL.

[Lulu]

http://s3-ec.buzzfed.com/static/enhanced/webdr05/2013/6/26/13/anigif_enhanced-buzz-29963-1372267303-23.gif

[supremester]

What I love about this vomit bag is that he attacks the anti-Mary people for "being crazed loons who go to her videos just to be negative and if they are not fans, they should just stay the f&%k away." Yet, here he is, 2 weeks after it's added to Youtube, doing EXACTLY what he calls others "crazed loons" for doing. LOL Hypocrite. Loon.
Speaking of the "b-word" [[I won't waste the typing on the full word), looky what I found today [[check out comment #1)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2KYDao8j6w&sns=fb

[Lulu]

What I love about this vomit bag is that he attacks the anti-Mary people for "being crazed loons who go to her videos just to be negative and if they are not fans, they should just stay the f&%k away." Yet, here he is, 2 weeks after it's added to Youtube, doing EXACTLY what he calls others "crazed loons" for doing. LOL Hypocrite. Loon.

I've told you crazy kids, calling any woman but Sarah Palin a dumb b***** is simply not tolerated!

[144man]

Whatever you say. I am just about the truth! Unfortunately, that usually does not come out in it's purest form until after the person's death.

And that's often because because the dead are unable to defend themselves. Al Jolson was not doing anything unusual for the times and the type of plagiarism mentioned here goes on to this day. I detect the whiff of anti-Semitism in the attacks upon him.

For further clarification I'm referring to the quotations cited rather than what members are saying.

[kenneth]

Speaking of the "b-word" [[I won't waste the typing on the full word), looky what I found today [[check out comment #1)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2KYDao8j6w&sns=fb

I never heard of this incident before, but I think Diane handles herself well and doesn't come off as a prima donna. Her complaint about the body search precedes all the flap which happened in recent years following the more intrusive searches following 9/11. I think in this interview she's careful not to over dramatize the situation but has a legitimate complaint and makes her point with class and aplomb.

[marv2]

And that's often because because the dead are unable to defend themselves. Al Jolson was not doing anything unusual for the times and the type of plagiarism mentioned here goes on to this day. I detect the whiff of anti-Semitism in the attacks upon him.

For further clarification I'm referring to the quotations cited rather than what members are saying.

No! Death means there is no longer any chance to add to or take away from the truth which is impossible anyway. To do so would not be the truth! How do you defend willful sin?

No anti-semitism here. I never once brought up or even considered his religion. That is inpertinent to the discussion. It is also weak attempt to throw us off Al Jolson and his black face act.

[144man]

No! Death means there is no longer any chance to add to or take away from the truth which is impossible anyway. To do so would not be the truth! How do you defend willful sin?

No. Death means you can say anything you like about dead people whether it's true or not. I could say whatever I liked about your great-grandfather, and who could prove me wrong?

[marv2]

No. Death means you can say anything you like about dead people whether it's true or not. I could say whatever I liked about your great-grandfather, and who could prove me wrong?

No you cannot say whatever you want about my relatives........ You can say whatever you want about your relatives. Think about it.

[144man]

There's nothing to stop me legally. The dead can't sue over here. I don't see what you're getting at.

[Jimi LaLumia]

trying to put the world of 50 years+ ago into contemporary context is just plain moronic.. "Rock A Bye.." was a standard song, I enjoyed it as a kid, by The Supremes and others, never once giving a thought to 'Dixie", it was just another line in the song..more importantly, three lovely young black women were singing the song on the tv in my 60's racist living room,,dismantling the power of the song by co opting it, throwing it back in the face of the white folks and making it their own... and in the process, converting my old school racist parents of the Depression era into Supremes fans..true story.. Gordy's brilliant, 'covert op'[["Project Show Tunes") was a stunning success, blunting the harshness of 'core' r&b that would have never won over the white audience, by presenting The Supremes to us as 'the bait' that led us to Marvin, Stevie, Junior Walker, Tempts and Tops and all the rest.. job well done, Berry Gordy.. Mission Accomplished!

[144man]

trying to put the world of 50 years+ ago into contemporary context is just plain moronic.. "Rock A Bye.." was a standard song, I enjoyed it as a kid, by The Supremes and others, never once giving a thought to 'Dixie", it was just another line in the song..more importantly, three lovely young black women were singing the song on the tv in my 60's racist living room,,dismantling the power of the song by co opting it, throwing it back in the face of the white folks and making it their own... and in the process, converting my old school racist parents of the Depression era into Supremes fans..true story.. Gordy's brilliant, 'covert op'[["Project Show Tunes") was a stunning success, blunting the harshness of 'core' r&b that would have never won over the white audience, by presenting The Supremes to us as 'the bait' that led us to Marvin, Stevie, Junior Walker, Tempts and Tops and all the rest.. job well done, Berry Gordy.. Mission Accomplished!

That's just about sums up how I feel.

This subject is too important to cheapen it by personal attacks on people who might hold different opinions. Let's deal with each other civilly for once and let the debate be settled by rational argument rather than on personalities.

[milven]

I thought we were now discussing Ben Vereen, but if we are still on JOLSON, as I said in an earlier post, I read "JOLSON: The Legend Comes To Life" by Herbert G Goldman. It tells all, the good the bad and the ugly, warts and all. So nothing negative said about him surprises me. ....

Let me bring the topic back to The Supremes and bring some joy to your life at the same time by saying that JOLSON was probably a DIVA and a bitch and the Diana Ross of his generation.

FEEL GOOD ? :rolleyes:




Whatever you say. I am just about the truth! Unfortunately, that usually does not come out in it's purest form until after the person's death.



Speaking of the "b-word" [[I won't waste the typing on the full word), looky what I found today [[check out comment #1)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2KYDao8j6w&sns=fb

Thank you for providing the link to the comment number one
"This is one dumb bitch. Shut up Diana! "
By coincidence , I also saw that comment while browsing You Tube,and that was why I used the sarcastic comparision between Diana and Jolson. But the sarcasim went above his head

[144man]

What evidence is there for the identity of DetroitLives313?

[LadyLola]

While true, coming from someone who, publicly, suggested gay people "deserve" HIV for their lifestyle choice, that's a pip!

Whoa!! This guy said that? Hold my purse honey. I'm going in!

[LadyLola]

I've told you crazy kids, calling any woman but Sarah Palin a dumb b***** is simply not tolerated!

Can we include Michelle Bachmann in that list too?

[milven]

What evidence is there for the identity of DetroitLives313?

Ask him. It's a simple question which he should have no trouble answering. But if his past history is any indication, he will ignore your question and then you can form your own conclusion.

[Lulu]

Ask him. It's a simple question which he should have no trouble answering. But if his past history is any indication, he will ignore your question and then you can form your own conclusion.

After you've picked yourself off of the floor for falling over laughing about all this talk about "the truth"! :rolleyes:

[antceleb12]

I've enjoyed "Rock-a-Bye" and "Swanee" for YEARS before even finding out about what some of those songs' minute references were. And you know what? I still enjoy those songs. Singing them and listening to them have not in any way, shape, or form influenced or romanticized my feelings about slavery and plantation life. Realistically, unless you are already a racist, I doubt these songs have made many people reevaluate the cruelty and sickness of slavery. Grant it, there are a lot of people out there with the delusion that slaves were treated nicely and that they loved their masters, etc. etc. However, I don't think this ideology comes from these songs. Had it not been for historical propaganda and verbal and textual manipulation of history [[much, much more so than these songs could ever do), I don't think these songs would have been such a big deal. Black face definitely did not help, but these songs, on their own, stand just as songs. Musically, they're just darn good songs. Nowadays, and even fifty years ago, when Garland, the Supremes, and Franklin were singing these songs [[all of whom, by the way, changed lines such as "old black Joe" to "soft and low," or "mammy mine" to "mommy mine"), I don't think many people understood or paid great attention to the references to slavery and plantation life. A lot of people don't even know what a "mammy" is, or "Old Black Joe!" I think this is especially true today. Play these songs to much of today's youth, and any racial or historical overtones would fly WAY over their heads.

[Jimi LaLumia]

exactly correct..and you can thank Berry Gordy's "Doris Day" approach [[which i call The Trojan Horse) for making this possible decades later..

[marv2]

It was in poor taste to have the Supremes on national television singing this type of song. Just a few years earlier they were being shot at [[for being black) while touring the South with the Motortown Revue. Both Mary and Diane have recounted several personal incidents where they experienced wide open racism while visiting relatives in the South.

Al Jolson promoted racial stereotypes.

fini!

[Lulu]

It was in poor taste to have the Supremes on national television singing this type of song. Just a few years earlier they were being shot at [[for being black) while touring the South with the Motortown Revue. Both Mary and Diane have recounted several personal incidents where they experienced wide open racism while visiting relatives in the South.

Al Jolson promoted racial stereotypes.

fini!

And what of Aretha singing it on the Steve Allen show in 1964?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ht7odW7VFU0

[supremester]

In his Yahoo Group Mary Wilson Of The Supremes, he has talked about posting clips on Youtube under that name.
What evidence is there for the identity of DetroitLives313?

[supremester]

I don't believe Jolson was a racist or intended harm to the black experience by doing his black face. He stopped when it was made known to him that it was not appreciated. He also, for years, brought black musicians and support acts with him wherever possible to try to force acceptance. He felt that he was advancing the acceptance of black music by exposing people to it. If others choose to disagree, we disagree. I don't think anyone like Judy, Sammy, Queen Ree or The Supremes singing these songs brought any harmful effect to anyone any more than wearing 100% cotton clothing does today.

[kenneth]

The Aretha clip is fantastic! Love her. I notice she does change a few of the lyrics as well, "Old Black Joe" becomes "Little Joe." "Old Black Joe" is of course a reference to the old Stephen Foster song.

As an aside, my father was born in Massachusetts, had parents who were Armenian immigrants. I doubt he even knew exactly where the Mason-Dixon line was, but he used to sing "Dixie" to us as children, and yes, when we'd be bouncing on his knee! And I guarantee you he didn't have a racist bone in his body!

[soulster]

Blackface is what we got when we have a dominant and oppressive group of people running a country that is determined to squelch any and all culture that it sees as a threat.

After doing dome research, I do not believe Al Jolson deliberately set out to insult Black people. He was a Lithuanian-Jewish immigrant who, in many ways, understood that Black Americans shared a common experience with oppression, and felt it. Now, many Whites indeed use blackface as a form of ridicule and a way to put forth their stereotype of Blacks. They did the same thing with other races and ethnicities, too. The problem is, those negative stereotypes have stayed with us for generations. Even today, young White high school and college students put on parties where people put on huge afro wigs and platform shoes, and caricature stereotypes of Blacks of the 70s, perpetuating more stereotypes. OTOH, I personally know older Black men and women who embody all of those stereotypes, right down to "Aunt Jemima", and the "thug". And, to turn the tables, what about Eddie Murphy's many stereotyping roles when he did "Saturday Night Live" in the early 80s? What about Richard Pryor?

I did a little reading up on Al Jolson. I looked at Wikipedia, and what is written here is favorable, and, to my mind, believable about him:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Jolson#Relations_with_African-Americans

I also did some reading up about the practice of Whites doing blackface, which I also found very credible and accurate:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackface

And, lastly, knowing about the history of race and racism in our country makes me wanna throw up my hands at it all:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minstrel_show

As with anything, what you read is always a product of the writer's biases.

America, and most of the world, are full of stereotypes. There will always be ignorant people who accept them. There's nothing we can do but be ourselves, whatever that may be, and fight the lies where ever you can.

Oh, yeah, about that video clip of The Supremes? It wasn't very well done, but I didn't see anything wrong with it at all. I have to admit, though, that anytime I hear a Black singer sing any type of song about "dixie", I kind of wince, as "dixie" is a somewhat codified name for White pride of the old south, at least that's my perception.

I never heard of the song until I discovered Aretha Franklin had a hit single of it in the early 60s. But, it's no wonder it has never, to my knowledge, showed up on any of her modern-day comps.

[soulster]

A)You know nothing about Al Jolson - he was a civil rights pioneer and known to be that, you imbecile.

There's no need for the name-calling. Marv is allowed to have his views, as the rest of us are. Marv may just be part of a younger generation than you, and sees the world a bit differently than you do. I am probably closer to Marv's age, so I fully understand his outrage. I notice that age is something that is just not mentioned on this forum. maybe that is because many members are 60+?



B) Performing in black face was not an indication of racism in the first half of the century. It was a form of musical entertainment from decades before.

Well, it was perceived as offensive by some. If you look to the modern day, one could say the same things about the Blaxploitation films of the 70s sich as "Superfly", or the "gang" films of the late 80s like "Boyz In The Hood", or the Black films of the 90s, like "Barbershop". The only difference is that more modern films were made by people like John Singleton, Spike Lee, and Mario Van Peebles.


D) After the YEARS of your homophobic hatred being spewed all over the internet, I cannot believe you have the cahoonas to even mention anything of the kind. You are free to feel and speak as you please, but know that your hate filled rhetoric against any group makes you the equivalent of ANY hate filled bigot against ANY group. I'm not going to sully this forum with your vile sputum, but anyone who would like examples of your venom may contact me privately.

Let's not conflate the issue with your hatred of the guy. Oh, BTW, I'm still waiting for anyone to point me to the many thousands of things Marv has allegedly said about gays on the internet. Enough of that. Back to the topic...


E) Berry Gordy gave up NONE of his pride - Motown did more for civil rights than you obviously can comprehend. Two years after this clip aired, Diana Ross performed Afro Vogue to an audience who tuned in to see Baby Love, until it segued into Somewhere and a Free At Last speech.

Good point!

[soulster]

Can we include Michelle Bachmann in that list too? Let's include Cliven Bundy, while we're at it.

[soulster]

This subject is too important to cheapen it by personal attacks on people who might hold different opinions. Let's deal with each other civilly for once and let the debate be settled by rational argument rather than on personalities. Yes, let's prove we can get through the rest of this thread without the nasty insults.

[milven]

.....I never heard of the song until I discovered Aretha Franklin had a hit single of it in the early 60s. But, it's no wonder it has never, to my knowledge, showed up on any of her modern-day comps.

It has been on quite a few of her compilation albums, but on Columbia, not Atlantic. One recent compilation even has a bonus DVD of her performing the song at the piano on the Steve Allen Show
http://www.arethafranklin.net/us/news/columbialegacy-honors-50th-anniversary-aretha-franklins-pop-recording-career-deluxe-box-set

[supremester]

You're right about the name calling. I thought about deleting it, but decided to use the vernacular of the person I was addressing. He chooses, often, to use derogatory names or adjectives to make his point, I wanted to get mine across. As a rule, I think name calling is sophomoric. With Marv, I made an exception that I still question, but am sticking with.

When I saw black face as kid, it never occurred to me that some might think that character might be construed as a commentary on real people any more than Sean Heys is on gays, Charlie Chan or Barbra Streisand for Jews. I just see them as characters like Bozo the Clown. I believe that was the intent, but sadly, not he result. The research I did on Jolson 40 years ago told of a man who pushed the agenda of blacks in Vaudeville.

If I run across his hate speech and I think of it, I'll send some your way. I and others have posted examples here but they usually get deleted.
There's no need for the name-calling. Marv is allowed to have his views, as the rest of us are. Marv may just be part of a younger generation than you, and sees the world a bit differently than you do. I am probably closer to Marv's age, so I fully understand his outrage. I notice that age is something that is just not mentioned on this forum. maybe that is because many members are 60+?




Well, it was perceived as offensive by some. If you look to the modern day, one could say the same things about the Blaxploitation films of the 70s sich as "Superfly", or the "gang" films of the late 80s like "Boyz In The Hood", or the Black films of the 90s, like "Barbershop". The only difference is that more modern films were made by people like John Singleton, Spike Lee, and Mario Van Peebles.



Let's not conflate the issue with your hatred of the guy. Oh, BTW, I'm still waiting for anyone to point me to the many thousands of things Marv has allegedly said about gays on the internet. Enough of that. Back to the topic...



Good point!

[soulster]

[QUOTE]When I saw black face as kid, it never occurred to me that some might think that character might be construed as a commentary on real people any more than Sean Heys is on gays, Charlie Chan or Barbra Streisand for Jews. I just see them as characters like Bozo the Clown. I believe that was the intent, but sadly, not he result. The research I did on Jolson 40 years ago told of a man who pushed the agenda of blacks in Vaudeville.

Well, when Carroll O'Conner played Archie Bunker, people saw it as a comment on bigots.

Who is Sean Hays? Never heard of him.


If I run across his hate speech and I think of it, I'll send some your way. I and others have posted examples here but they usually get deleted.

Feel free to send me the links privately.

[Lulu]

[QUOTE=supremester;224356]



Well, when Carroll O'Conner played Archie Bunker, people saw it as a comment on bigots.

Who is Sean Hays? Never heard of him.

Sean HayES played Jack [[McFarland) on Will & Grace and won an Emmy for the role and was on the show for all 8 seasons. He and Megan Mullally were the support for Eric McCormack and Debra Messing and IMHO, the funniest thing about the show. However, the "Jack" character exhibits many of the gay male stereotypes. Hayes didn't officially come out of the closet in real life until about four years after the show ended.

Feel free to send me the links privately.


Sean HayES played Jack [[McFarland) on Will & Grace and won an Emmy for the role and was on the show for all 8 seasons. He and Megan Mullally were the support for Eric McCormack and Debra Messing and IMHO, the funniest thing about the show. However, the "Jack" character exhibits many of the gay male stereotypes. Hayes didn't officially come out of the closet in real life until about four years after the show ended.

[smark21]

Sean Hayes played Jack on Will and Grace.

That rancher Bundy nnd his remarks that African Americans were better off picking cotton as slaves just shows there are still many people in the US who still view slavery as a great time.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/nevada-rancher-bundy-condemned-racist-remarks-23457303

[Lulu]

Let's include Cliven Bundy, while we're at it.

Oh GAWD YES...or that idiot KKK shooter from Kansas who, it was discovered, had solicited a black male prostitute some years ago!

[Lulu]

Sean Hayes played Jack on Will and Grace.

That rancher Bundy nnd his remarks that African Americans were better off picking cotton as slaves just shows there are still many people in the US who still view slavery as a great time.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/nevada-rancher-bundy-condemned-racist-remarks-23457303

Yes Phil "Duck Dynasty" Robertson made similar comments about blacks and slavery...ick! This is way more offensive, I think, than Dixie or Song of the South​! Sheesh!

[Roberta75]

TOh, BTW, I'm still waiting for anyone to point me to the many thousands of things Marv has allegedly said about gays on the internet. Enough of that. Back to the topic...

lolololol. Seriously, weve all seen his hateful homophobic comments on youtube and they been posted in this here forum on more than one occassion but let me put it to you like this, let dear marv2 DENY that he is DetroitLive313?

Roberta

[milven]

lolololol. Seriously, weve all seen his hateful homophobic comments on youtube and they been posted in this here forum on more than one occassion but let me put it to you like this, let dear marv2 DENY that he is DetroitLive313?

Roberta

Roberta, you know there will be no reply.


What evidence is there for the identity of DetroitLives313?






Ask him. It's a simple question which he should have no trouble answering. But if his past history is any indication, he will ignore your question and then you can form your own conclusion.

[jobeterob]

Why are the most bigoted prejudiced mean people often the first ones to step forward and cry "that is racist, he's a racist, he's a bigot?"

Anonymous names.

What fears are being hidden! Homophobic attacks! Cry racism but attack everyone.

Strange.

[supremester]

I thought I had heard and read everything until I ran across this. I was a adult in my mid 20's at Duke before I ever heard talk like this or even knew anyone who had - and had to go to Durham, NC to do it. She was a faded, 6' 340 # Southern Belle named Aurora who I was certain had, at one time, been a man. Later, I found out I was wrong about that, but she was so sweet and genteel until I invited the only black person at our complex to my Christmas Party. When I was a kid, there wasn't any "us" vs "they" - it was all just kind of "we" and I admit I was ill equipped in this regard to raise two mixed race girls - they have taught me plenty. I wonder if he's related to Ted Bundy......or was. I believe, as time marches on, that these last few holdouts will die away and we will be free of the yoke of bigotry. A black president even a decade ago was, to many, unthinkable. Gay marriage has reversed in a heartbeat. This rancher will be dust one day with his thoughts and songs like Rockabye can be appreciated for the simple, shallow form of entertainment they were meant to be without any negative racial connotations.
Sean Hayes played Jack on Will and Grace.

That rancher Bundy nnd his remarks that African Americans were better off picking cotton as slaves just shows there are still many people in the US who still view slavery as a great time.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/nevada-rancher-bundy-condemned-racist-remarks-23457303

[soulster]

lolololol. Seriously, weve all seen his hateful homophobic comments on youtube and they been posted in this here forum on more than one occassion but let me put it to you like this, let dear marv2 DENY that he is DetroitLive313?

Roberta Not to help hijack this thread into another Marv-bash fest, but, I guess I was on hiatus from this forum when he allegedly posted all this stuff. I said allegedly because I don't know if this is true. I don't know who Marv is or what he's about. You have to send me some links and verify that he is who you say he is. I'm one of those people who has to see it to believe it.

[soulster]

Why are the most bigoted prejudiced mean people often the first ones to step forward and cry "that is racist, he's a racist, he's a bigot?"

Anonymous names.

What fears are being hidden! Homophobic attacks! Cry racism but attack everyone.

Strange.

I just want to see some evidence. Like John Lennon said: "Gimme Some Truth". Until then, it's all hearsay to me.

[smark21]

Here's an article in today's NY Times about the sub culture devoted nostalgia about slavery which songs like Swanee River and Dixie help to perpetuate in various ways, if one thinks seriously and honestly about the lyrics and their implications.

http://takingnote.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/04/24/slavery-nostalgia-is-real-and-its-dangerous/?ref=opinion

[Roberta75]

Not to help hijack this thread into another Marv-bash fest, but, I guess I was on hiatus from this forum when he allegedly posted all this stuff. I said allegedly because I don't know if this is true. I don't know who Marv is or what he's about. You have to send me some links and verify that he is who you say he is. I'm one of those people who has to see it to believe it.

Sorry but im not turning this into another marv2 thread he get enough attention [[that he crave and love imo) on this here forum. We all know hes DetroitLive313 and weve seen the disgusting comments hes wrote on youtube and theyve been posted here before. Ive ask marv2 to DENY that he is DetroitLive313 but he cant. Thats all im saying.

Roberta

[soulster]

Here's an article in today's NY Times about the sub culture devoted nostalgia about slavery which songs like Swanee River and Dixie help to perpetuate in various ways, if one thinks seriously and honestly about the lyrics and their implications.

http://takingnote.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/04/24/slavery-nostalgia-is-real-and-its-dangerous/?ref=opinion
Wow! By never having been to the south, I never knew it was this bad. I knew these people existed. Hell, I see them all the time. I just didn't know how ingrained they are into the "system" down there. Well, I should know, because we have those kinds of kooks here in the west, obviously!

[soulster]

Sorry but im not turning this into another marv2 thread he get enough attention [[that he crave and love imo) on this here forum. We all know hes DetroitLive313 and weve seen the disgusting comments hes wrote on youtube and theyve been posted here before. Ive ask marv2 to DENY that he is DetroitLive313 but he cant. Thats all im saying.

Roberta
And, i'm just saying to show me some evidence.

[milven]

And, i'm just saying to show me some evidence.

We all know that Marv is DetroitLive313. As I pointed out three times to others, just ask him. He can say yes or no. But he will avoid the question and not answer. Then you can form your own opinion.

Let the next post following mine be your post asking him. His non response will be your answer.

It's that simple.

[Roberta75]

We all know that Marv is DetroitLive313. As I pointed out three times to others, just ask him. He can say yes or no. But he will avoid the question and not answer. Then you can form your own opinion.

Let the next post following mine be your post asking him. His non response will be your answer.

It's that simple.

i wouldnt indulge soulster on this any further dear milven He know good and well that hes seen marv/Detroitlive313 disgusting homophobicx postings in this here forum so id stop answering his further requests.

Fondly.

Roberta

[kenneth]

We all know that Marv is DetroitLive313. As I pointed out three times to others, just ask him. He can say yes or no. But he will avoid the question and not answer. Then you can form your own opinion.

Let the next post following mine be your post asking him. His non response will be your answer.

It's that simple.

What Milven is describing is known in legal terms as a "manifestation of acquiescence." Sometimes even not answering can be a confirmation or affirmation if a reasonable person would deny the behavior.

[supremester]

You can join MWOS and see for yourself.
I just want to see some evidence. Like John Lennon said: "Gimme Some Truth". Until then, it's all hearsay to me.

[Lulu]

You can join MWOS and see for yourself.

What is MWOS? Mary Wilson Original Supreme​ or something to that effect?

[supremester]

Yes, it's Marv's Yahoo Group and is lots of fun

[soulster]

i wouldnt indulge soulster on this any further dear milven He know good and well that hes seen marv/Detroitlive313 disgusting homophobicx postings in this here forum so id stop answering his further requests.

It's not for you to say what I have or haven't seen. For a few years between 2005 and 2008, I was away from this forum. I am guessing when that stuff went down.

I'm still waiting for some evidence to materialize...unless you can't produce it.

[Roberta75]

It's not for you to say what I have or haven't seen. For a few years between 2005 and 2008, I was away from this forum. I am guessing when that stuff went down.

I'm still waiting for some evidence to materialize...unless you can't produce it.

what you want my dear is for someone to repost them vile comments that was posted in this here forum LAST year and the year before so you werent way then and you did see the homophobic hate that marv/DetroitLIVE313 wrote on youTube. If someone repoost them Ralph get involved and close down the thread which isnt going to happen so I'm not buying you havent seen them nonsense.

Respectfully.

Roberta

[Lulu]

Yes, it's Marv's Yahoo Group and is lots of fun

I can't.

First of all, Yahoo! Groups? Really? I honestly didn't even know they still existed.

Second, As much respect as I have for Mary Wilson as a founding member of The Supremes, I don't care enough to join an entire group devoted to her. I get enough "updates" on this forum.

Thirdly, I find it so interesting that this may be a forum where "bashing" of any kind is permitted be it gays, Diana Ross, etc. Funny how the biggest Yahoo! group devoted to Diana Ross [[which has now migrated to Facebook) has a ZERO bash policy - especially when it comes to Mary Wilson. For years, I remember we couldn't even talk about RTL! One of the most refreshing things about DRUTF was that it was had a NO tolerance policy when it came to postings that could be construed as offensive to other members, recording artists or even communities [[black, gay, etc.). Even on the FB groups for DR and The Supremes, there are ZERO posts by members about Mary Wilson or any of the other assorted nonsense. I guess it's reflective of the artists that are represented and their decorum when it comes to talking about other artists and/or former co-group members.

[soulster]

You can join MWOS and see for yourself.

I'm not gonna join any damn Mary Wilson forum. You can simply privately provide a link to some of the offending stuff so I can see for myself. You guys forget, i'm not part of your little group, and have no interest in becoming part of it. But, if you guys are going to continually claim something, be able to back it up with evidence. Otherwise, you guys are no better than those tea-bagger birthers who keep trying to claim that Obama is a white mother-hating, Kenyan Muslim socialist homosexual who is trying to hand over the country to Al-Qaida.

And, as far as manifestation of acquiescence is concerned, you can say the same thing about Michael Jackson, or even the forum members who say nothing about the stupid little cat-fights that continually go on here.

[Lulu]

It's not for you to say what I have or haven't seen. For a few years between 2005 and 2008, I was away from this forum. I am guessing when that stuff went down.

I'm still waiting for some evidence to materialize...unless you can't produce it.

I see no reason why anyone would fabricate these allegations. Unfortunately, if said individual is the moderator of said group, I suppose he can't censor or "ban" himself for offending anyone. As I've said elsewhere, any Diana Ross group I've been a member of had a ZERO tolerance policy for bashing any artist [[especially Mary Wilson) OR anyone based on race, sexual orientation, etc.

[soulster]

what you want my dear is for someone to repost them vile comments that was posted in this here forum LAST year and the year before so you werent way then and you did see the homophobic hate that marv/DetroitLIVE313 wrote on youTube. If someone repoost them Ralph get involved and close down the thread which isnt going to happen so I'm not buying you havent seen them nonsense.

Respectfully.

Roberta

Then you send me the LINKS privately so no one but ME has to see it. I have no interest in publicly posting, or repeating whatever it is. I don't play that mess.

Unless...there is no evidence...

[soulster]

I can't.

First of all, Yahoo! Groups? Really? I honestly didn't even know they still existed.

Second, As much respect as I have for Mary Wilson as a founding member of The Supremes, I don't care enough to join an entire group devoted to her. I get enough "updates" on this forum.

Thirdly, I find it so interesting that this may be a forum where "bashing" of any kind is permitted be it gays, Diana Ross, etc. Funny how the biggest Yahoo! group devoted to Diana Ross [[which has now migrated to Facebook) has a ZERO bash policy - especially when it comes to Mary Wilson. For years, I remember we couldn't even talk about RTL! One of the most refreshing things about DRUTF was that it was had a NO tolerance policy when it came to postings that could be construed as offensive to other members, recording artists or even communities [[black, gay, etc.). Even on the FB groups for DR and The Supremes, there are ZERO posts by members about Mary Wilson or any of the other assorted nonsense. I guess it's reflective of the artists that are represented and their decorum when it comes to talking about other artists and/or former co-group members. Hey, Lulu, I noticed you joined up on that message board I recommended to you. You notice how moderated that forum is, right? None of the stuff Ralph allows to go on here is tolerated there. I noticed you haven't posted over there yet. Maybe it's not your kind of place. Oh well...

[Lulu]

Hey, Lulu, I noticed you joined up on that message board I recommended to you. You notice how moderated that forum is, right? None of the stuff Ralph allows to go on here is tolerated there. I noticed you haven't posted over there yet. Maybe it's not your kind of place. Oh well...

I did register but admittedly have been lazy about posting. No worries. I'm actually trying to find some discussion points that might be of interest. Hang tight!

[kenneth]

I'm not gonna join any damn Mary Wilson forum. You can simply privately provide a link to some of the offending stuff so I can see for myself. You guys forget, i'm not part of your little group, and have no interest in becoming part of it. But, if you guys are going to continually claim something, be able to back it up with evidence. Otherwise, you guys are no better than those tea-bagger birthers who keep trying to claim that Obama is a white mother-hating, Kenyan Muslim socialist homosexual who is trying to hand over the country to Al-Qaida.

And, as far as manifestation of acquiescence is concerned, you can say the same thing about Michael Jackson, or even the forum members who say nothing about the stupid little cat-fights that continually go on here.

I actually hope that Marv has toned down some of that, as he seems to have on this forum. I like Marv and prefer to give him the benefit of the doubt that most of the rants are a thing of the past. I have no interest in "proving" anything to anyone. I was just making a point that most people would deny engaging in that sort of behavior if confronted. I don't understand the reference to Michael Jackson.

[soulster]

I see no reason why anyone would fabricate these allegations.

Ok, then. I've been asking for a year for anyone of these people to show me some proof, and NO ONE has done it yet. They can send it to me by private message so it doesn't have to be posted on the forums for anyone to see.

I am not going to join any Mary Wilson, Supremes, Diana Ross, YouTube, Facebook, Twitter group just to see what Marv wrote about gays.

[Lulu]

Ok, then. I've been asking for a year for anyone of these people to show me some proof, and NO ONE has done it yet. They can send it to me by private message so it doesn't have to be posted on the forums for anyone to see.

I am not going to join any Mary Wilson, Supremes, Diana Ross, YouTube, Facebook, Twitter group just to see what Marv wrote about gays.

The HILARITY of all of this is the very notion that there is anything "anti-gay" said in the same breath as the Supremes. That's like saying something "anti-nerd" in a Star Trek forum.

[kenneth]

I did register but admittedly have been lazy about posting. No worries. I'm actually trying to find some discussion points that might be of interest. Hang tight!

I don't think anyone has to worry about Lulu not speaking out at the appropriate time!

[soulster]

If Marv has "toned down" his alleged stance on gays, good. If his opinion on gays has evolved, all the better. You guys have to remember that a lot of people still have an issue with LBGTs for whatever reason. It's not that easy for some people. There was a time I would have said some pretty vile things about gays too. Now that I personally know a few lesbians and gays, I have also evolved in my views. I can't say that I am 100% comfortable with certain things. Just being honest here.

Now, what is this thread supposed to be about? Oh yeah! some girl group doing "Rock-A-Bye Your Baby [[With A Dixie Melody)" in the age of civil rights, dogs and fire hoses trained on women and children, Watts riots, assassination of Malcolm-X, Al Jolson, and all that stuff.

[soulster]

The HILARITY of all of this is the very notion that there is anything "anti-gay" said in the same breath as the Supremes. That's like saying something "anti-nerd" in a Star Trek forum. Is there such thing as a straight man who is a big fan of The Supremes?

[Lulu]

Is there such thing as a straight man who is a big fan of The Supremes?

I personally know two very straight and very married fellas who have followed them since the 70s and I'm sure there are others but most of my friends who are big fans of the group, Diana, Mary and/or the other members are either female or gay.

[supremester]

Well, I think that enough people have witnessed these things that it could be taken as probably true, but if not, it's cool with me. If it is proven that he is DetroitLives, then it could be, "how do I know he wasn't hacked?" There's a stepping off point for moi, it's now. If I DO, naturally run acRoss something of interest on this topic, I will share it.

[Lulu]

Well, I think that enough people have witnessed these things that it could be taken as probably true, but if not, it's cool with me. If it is proven that he is DetroitLives, then it could be, "how do I know he wasn't hacked?" There's a stepping off point for moi, it's now. If I DO, naturally run acRoss something of interest on this topic, I will share it.

Oh the old "I've been hacked" trick :rolleyes:

How many government folk use that "excuse" when they get caught with their pants down?

[soulster]

I personally know two very straight and very married fellas who have followed them since the 70s and I'm sure there are others but most of my friends who are big fans of the group, Diana, Mary and/or the other members are either female or gay. And, I know a straight guy who is Lady Gaga's biggest fan, and goes to every single concert he can. He even went to a Spice Girls show. I think he just goes to perv out on young girls. :)

[soulster]

Well, I think that enough people have witnessed these things that it could be taken as probably true, I still want to see for myself. I have yet to see anyone come up with anything. I've seen some respected senior members who don't post anymore mention it, but I still have to see it for myself.

[Lulu]

And, I know a straight guy who is Lady Gaga's biggest fan, and goes to every single concert he can. He even went to a Spice Girls show. I think he just goes to perv out on young girls. :)

Never got the appeal of the Spice Girls!

[soulster]

Never got the appeal of the Spice Girls! Me neither. but, I guess a guy could get off on "accidentally" rubbing up against a crowd of scantily-clad teenage girls. :)

[Lulu]

Me neither. but, I guess a guy could get off on "accidentally" rubbing up against a crowd of scantily-clad teenage girls. :)

Ewwwwwwwww! Anyone who preys on kids/teenagers definitely deserves what they get in prison! The lowest of the low!

[Roberta75]

Me neither. but, I guess a guy could get off on "accidentally" rubbing up against a crowd of scantily-clad teenage girls. :)

That is real real creepy and not funny and akward and offensive and borderline illegal. For the sake of decency you should probably remove you posting. I think it might freak out parents of young teenage kids.

Ewwwwww.

Roberta

[Roberta75]

Is there such thing as a straight man who is a big fan of The Supremes?

isnt you buddy marv2 straight and he's a real big fan of Diane and Mary and Florence and Jean Terell from the Supremes.

[Lulu]

That is real real creepy and not funny and akward and offensive and borderline illegal. For the sake of decency you should probably remove you posting. I think it might freak out parents of young teenage kids.

Ewwwwww.

Roberta

She's right - I tried to hint at that. It's a more than a little gross.

[antceleb12]

Is there such thing as a straight man who is a big fan of The Supremes?

Ed Sullivan. Harry Belafonte. Marvin Gaye.

[antceleb12]

Is there such thing as a straight man who is a big fan of The Supremes?

Also, check out the videos of the Supremes in the Orient. You'll see audiences of male soldiers LOVING the girls.

[marv2]

isnt you buddy marv2 straight and he's a real big fan of Diane and Mary and Florence and Jean Terell from the Supremes.

You don't seem too very bright. The Supremes sold something like 100 million records and those records were not only bought by gay people. Duh? The Supremes were not a gay group. I never heard anything like that until the internet and people like yourself. And for the record [[ no pun intended)
I am not a fan of Diana Ross at all. Mary Wilson is a friend of mine, I don't consider myself a "fan" . Keep grasping for a way to slander me, insult me and you might be successful, but I am a New Yorker, so then again you might not! LOL!!!

[Lulu]

You don't seem too very bright. The Supremes sold something like 100 million records and those records were not only bought by gay people. Duh? The Supremes were not a gay group. I never heard anything like that until the internet and people like yourself. And for the record [[ no pun intended)
I am not a fan of Diana Ross at all. Mary Wilson is a friend of mine, I don't consider myself a "fan" . Keep grasping for a way to slander me, insult me and you might be successful, but I am New Yorker, so then again you might not! LOL!!!

I don't think "You don't seem too very bright" makes sense. Either use "too" or "very".

Also, I've asked you this before: What does your "friend" Mary Wilson think about your hatred of Diana Ross and all the nasty things you say about her?

[marv2]

I don't think "You don't seem too very bright" makes sense. Either use "too" or "very".

Also, I've asked you this before: What does your "friend" Mary Wilson think about your hatred of Diana Ross and all the nasty things you say about her?

Look I don't know you. You don't know me at all. You don't have the right to ask me or demand that I tell you anything..........................stranger! You don't seem too very bright yourself!

[supremester]

My Aunt Fannie was a New Yorker too! Maybe we';re related!


You don't seem too very bright. The Supremes sold something like 100 million records and those records were not only bought by gay people. Duh? The Supremes were not a gay group. I never heard anything like that until the internet and people like yourself. And for the record [[ no pun intended)
I am not a fan of Diana Ross at all. Mary Wilson is a friend of mine, I don't consider myself a "fan" . Keep grasping for a way to slander me, insult me and you might be successful, but I am a New Yorker, so then again you might not! LOL!!!

[Lulu]

Look I don't know you. You don't know me at all. You don't have the right to ask me or demand that I tell you anything..........................stranger! You don't seem too very bright yourself!

Well, how would she feel about getting a binder full of your "greatest hits"? Her address can't be hard to find. I trust that "friendship" wouldn't last very much longer...if it exists at all...

[milven]

....You don't seem too very bright. !!!

You might want to check the brightness of your own bulb. Roberta did not slander you. Other posters implied that to be a fan of the Supremes, you have to be gay. Roberta used you as an example of a person who is a fan of most members of the group and who is straight. No slander there

[Roberta75]

You don't seem too very bright. The Supremes sold something like 100 million records and those records were not only bought by gay people. Duh? The Supremes were not a gay group. I never heard anything like that until the internet and people like yourself. And for the record [[ no pun intended)
I am not a fan of Diana Ross at all. Mary Wilson is a friend of mine, I don't consider myself a "fan" . Keep grasping for a way to slander me, insult me and you might be successful, but I am a New Yorker, so then again you might not! LOL!!!

your not a fan of Diane Ross? Really cause you post about Diane every single day in this here forum. im not slandering you dear i was pointing out to soulster that the Supremes fans have straight male fans. Arent you a big supremes fan? I never said the Supremes were an gay group it was Soulster that say that. See below.

"Originally Posted by soulster http://soulfuldetroit.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png [[http://soulfuldetroit.com/showthread.php?p=224532#post224532)
Is there such thing as a straight man who is a big fan of The Supremes?"

Roberta

[Lulu]

your not a fan of Diane Ross? Really cause you post about Diane every single day in this here forum. im not slandering you dear i was pointing out to soulster that the Supremes fans have straight male fans. Arent you a big supremes fan? I never said the Supremes were an gay group it was Soulster that say that. See below.

"Originally Posted by soulster http://soulfuldetroit.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png [[http://soulfuldetroit.com/showthread.php?p=224532#post224532)
Is there such thing as a straight man who is a big fan of The Supremes?"

Roberta

LOL! Good one, R! I missed the "slander" comment the first time - I believe my "binder" of Marv's greatest hits [[sent expressed mail to Miss Wilson, natch) will include a chapter called "Slandering Miss Ross".

[soulster]

Ewwwwwwwww! Anyone who preys on kids/teenagers definitely deserves what they get in prison! The lowest of the low!
He's not doing anything wrong. He's just caught up in a tight crowd of them. It can happen on Black Friday.

[soulster]

That is real real creepy and not funny and akward and offensive and borderline illegal. For the sake of decency you should probably remove you posting. I think it might freak out parents of young teenage kids.

Ewwwwww.

Roberta Why am I gonna remove the post for? People should know what kind of creepy guys there are out there. Probably a few creepy chicks, too, although no one suspects the women.

[Lulu]

He's not doing anything wrong. He's just caught up in a tight crowd of them. It can happen on Black Friday.

I'm a fallen Catholic. Need I say more?

[soulster]

Also, check out the videos of the Supremes in the Orient. You'll see audiences of male soldiers LOVING the girls. The Orient??? That term is offensive now. It's called Asia.

[soulster]

your not a fan of Diane Ross? Really cause you post about Diane every single day in this here forum. im not slandering you dear i was pointing out to soulster that the Supremes fans have straight male fans. Arent you a big supremes fan? I never said the Supremes were an gay group it was Soulster that say that. See below.

"Originally Posted by soulster http://soulfuldetroit.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png [[http://soulfuldetroit.com/showthread.php?p=224532#post224532)
Is there such thing as a straight man who is a big fan of The Supremes?"

Roberta I didn't say they were a gay group. That was a direct question, not a rhetorical one.

And, besides, this thread went down the toilet the minute someone started in on Marv, so...

[soulster]

I'm a fallen Catholic. Need I say more? If a hand "accidentally" touches your ass, it wasn't the creepy guy, it was the girl trying to push closer to the stage.

[Roberta75]

I didn't say they were a gay group. That was a direct question, not a rhetorical one.

And, besides, this thread went down the toilet the minute someone started in on Marv, so...

I know i know poor harmless and defenseles marv always picked on.

You have gone on and on and on and on and on in the pasts about gay people idolizing female performers.

Roberta

[kenneth]

I know i know poor harmless and defenseles marv always picked on.

You have gone on and on and on and on and on in the pasts about gay people idolizing female performers.

Roberta

Is this the same poster who had the tirade a couple weeks ago about gays, that he had to hide the fact that he liked soaps, that no straight guys liked musicals, etc., or was that someone else?

[Roberta75]

Why am I gonna remove the post for? People should know what kind of creepy guys there are out there. Probably a few creepy chicks, too, although no one suspects the women.

No offense dear but it makes it sound like you want to rub up against teenage girls and teenage girl can be easily misconstrud as 14 year old girls. Real creepy imo.

Fondly,

Roberta

[Roberta75]

Is this the same poster who had the tirade a couple weeks ago about gays, that he had to hide the fact that he liked soaps, that no straight guys liked musicals, etc., or was that someone else?

yes yes yes dear Kenneth.

Fondly,

Roberta

[soulster]

You have gone on and on and on and on and on in the pasts about gay people idolizing female performers.

Roberta Only because I was genuinely perplexed by it. One would think that gay men would follow gay men.

[soulster]

No offense dear but it makes it sound like you want to rub up against teenage girls and teenage girl can be easily misconstrud as 14 year old girls. Real creepy imo.

Fondly,

Roberta
As long as they are legal-age teens...:)

[supremester]

You're right: one would: YOU. Gay men "follow" who they enjoy. Some enjoy Justin Beiber, some Stevie wonder, Some Miss Ross, some Nine Inch Nails, some nine inch anything.
Only because I genuinely perplexed by it. One would think that gay men would follow gay men.

[Lulu]

You're right: one would: YOU. Gay men "follow" who they enjoy. Some enjoy Justin Beiber, some Stevie wonder, Some Miss Ross, some Nine Inch Nails, some nine inch anything.

A LOL and a hehehehehehe to you, sir! :o That was really funny actually.

[bradsupremes]

Is there such thing as a straight man who is a big fan of The Supremes?

Me. And many others.

[soulster]

Me. And many others. Well, judging from this forum, I wouldn't think so. Just askin' the question.

I have said many times before that I like the music, just not the obsessed fans that go along with it.

[kenneth]

Only because I was genuinely perplexed by it. One would think that gay men would follow gay men.

Now there's an intelligent comment. I guess that means straight men only like straight male singers? Women who are not lesbians only follow straight female singers?

I'm not sure if you're as dense as you seem or you're just deliberately provocative. I tend to think the latter.

[Roberta75]

Now there's an intelligent comment. I guess that means straight men only like straight male singers? Women who are not lesbians only follow straight female singers?

I'm not sure if you're as dense as you seem or you're just deliberately provocative. I tend to think the latter.

Oh hes not dense dear Kenneth he say those things to get attention.

Fondly,

Roberta

[Lulu]

Now there's an intelligent comment. I guess that means straight men only like straight male singers? Women who are not lesbians only follow straight female singers?

I'm not sure if you're as dense as you seem or you're just deliberately provocative. I tend to think the latter.

Yeah, it is a really odd comment. Considering when we were growing up, my gay friends had....hmmmm...LIBERACE?!? The boys today are lucky to have Ricky Martin, Adam Lambert and the other role models out there BUT frankly, I don't have many gay male friends who like either one! I think music transcends all color/age/sex/race/gender/sexual orientation.

[144man]

Oh hes not dense dear Kenneth he say those things to get attention.

Fondly,

Roberta

Doesn't anyone who posts on a forum want attention? I'd rather someone disagree with one one of my posts than to have it ignored.

[144man]

The Orient??? That term is offensive now. It's called Asia.

I don't get why the Orient is thought by you to be offensive. It certainly isn't in the UK. Doesn't it just mean the East?

[honest man]

I don't get why the Orient is thought by you to be offensive. It certainly isn't in the UK. Doesn't it just mean the East?

My thoughts as well,really find some of this politically correct too much,ridiculous.But by calling an entertainer who thrilled people for Decades and still does [by the way].A DEMON etc i found that offensive,whilst on the subject what was Rock a bye your baby with Dixie melody ,what is the problem about,Ihave loved it from A child [my dad had all Al Jolson songs],still today by DRATS and whoever. Ireally don't understand the Malicous responce.about the song.Offensive Never would i insult anyone either.Thank You.

[roger]

I don't get why the Orient is thought by you to be offensive. It certainly isn't in the UK. Doesn't it just mean the East?

I think it is just a synonym for "The Far East" 144man .. i.e. the eastern side of the Eurasian Continent [[Singapore, Malaysia, Thailand, Vietnam, China, Japan etc.). I was taken to task some years back for using the term "Oriental" on this forum by someone who thought it was "offensive" but I can't imagine for one moment that anyone who actually lives there finds it so.

Of course, here in sunny East London "The Orient" is a football team ...

http://www.leytonorient.com/

Funnily enough, everyone around here [[apart from the handful who actually support them) has them as their "second team" and no-one finds them "offensive" at all, unlike certain other football teams I could mention that are around here. :)

More seriously, I'm intrigued by this notion that "Gay" men would follow "Gay" performers. I remember some time in the mid-1990s being over in Dublin and, as I had a spare evening, I decided to go on a pub crawl. It took me about two minutes for me to realise that one of the venues I visited was a "Gay" venue [[I think the rather butch men sitting at the bar reading newspapers printed on pink paper called "Dublin Gay News" or something similar was a bit of a giveaway!!).

The funny thing about the pub was that in the half hour or so I was in there ALL the records that they played were by acts who were fronted by "out" "Gay" men .. we had DEAD OR ALIVE, ERASURE, FRANKIE GOES TO HOLLYWOOD, THE COMMUNARDS, CULTURE CLUB etc. etc. It struck me as a bit strange [[and even a bit sad) as the people in there seemed to be being subjected to such a restrictive view of music.

Given that DIANA ROSS is neither "male" nor "Gay" I don't think it will come as a surprise to anyone that I didn't hear any of her records played in this venue :) .... Pity really as if they had I might have stayed for another pint ... LOL!!

Roger

[soulster]

I don't get why the Orient is thought by you to be offensive. It certainly isn't in the UK. Doesn't it just mean the East? It's because "The Orient" is associated with only one country when there are many various cultures that clash with each other. It's offensive to lump them all together.

[floyjoy678]

Oh the irony. And the hypocrisy.

[antceleb12]

The Orient??? That term is offensive now. It's called Asia.

Soulster, that's what the movie is actually called...I'm not going to refer you to a video with the wrong title. It was a house documentary produced by Motown in 1966 when the Supremes were on tour in what was then called the 'Orient.'

Secondly, the term 'the Orient' refers to the entire Middle East all together. I'm not sure which one country you are talking about because it's a very general term, just as 'the Americas' refers to both North, South, and Central America, or how Africa refers to the whole continent. I am not sure how that term is offensive. I have never heard it used in any derogatory fashion.

[144man]

I think it is just a synonym for "The Far East" 144man .. i.e. the eastern side of the Eurasian Continent [[Singapore, Malaysia, Thailand, Vietnam, China, Japan etc.). I was taken to task some years back for using the term "Oriental" on this forum by someone who thought it was "offensive" but I can't imagine for one moment that anyone who actually lives there finds it so.

Of course, here in sunny East London "The Orient" is a football team ...

http://www.leytonorient.com/

Funnily enough, everyone around here [[apart from the handful who actually support them) has them as their "second team" and no-one finds them "offensive" at all, unlike certain other football teams I could mention that are around here. :)


Roger

I sometimes used to see the O's play, despite supporting West Ham.

[144man]

It's because "The Orient" is associated with only one country when there are tionary many various cultures that clash with each other. It's offensive to lump them all together.

The Orient has never been associated with only one country. My dictionary defines it as "the countries of the East" and does not describe it as a derogatory term.

In any case, words should be our servants, not our masters.

[smark21]

In my first year in college there was a woman on my dorm floor who was of Thai descent. We were talking and I referred to her as oriental. Nicely, but firmly, she told me that it was an offensive term to use. She was not "oriental" but of Thai heritage.

Here's a link explaining why the term is offensive and outmoded. It's pretty much akin to using "Negro" these days. http://racerelations.about.com/od/understandingrac1/a/racialnamestoavoid.htm

And reading some of the defenses of Al Jolson and the use of the term oriental and standing up for minstrel show songs that sentimentalize slavery and the old south, I really wonder about some of you here. In real life, do any of you go by the names Cliven Bundy or Donald Sterling? I'm sure you find nothing offensive or wrong about sport team nicknames like The Washington Redskins?

[marv2]

Well said i really think this Marv person ,really needs to be booted off this forum .He is FOUL.

You are foul in my opinion.

[marv2]

My thoughts as well,really find some of this politically correct too much,ridiculous.But by calling an entertainer who thrilled people for Decades and still does [by the way].A DEMON etc i found that offensive,whilst on the subject what was Rock a bye your baby with Dixie melody ,what is the problem about,Ihave loved it from A child [my dad had all Al Jolson songs],still today by DRATS and whoever. Ireally don't understand the Malicous responce.about the song.Offensive Never would i insult anyone either.Thank You.

You disagree with my summation of Al Jolson? Then read this:

http://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/1nwuk9/til_al_jolson_famous_for_performing_in_blackface/

I believe every word of it is true and that definitely describes someone quite demonic to me!

[antceleb12]

In my first year in college there was a woman on my dorm floor who was of Thai descent. We were talking and I referred to her as oriental. Nicely, but firmly, she told me that it was an offensive term to use. She was not "oriental" but of Thai heritage.

Here's a link explaining why the term is offensive and outmoded. It's pretty much akin to using "Negro" these days. http://racerelations.about.com/od/understandingrac1/a/racialnamestoavoid.htm

And reading some of the defenses of Al Jolson and the use of the term oriental and standing up for minstrel show songs that sentimentalize slavery and the old south, I really wonder about some of you here. In real life, do any of you go by the names Cliven Bundy or Donald Sterling? I'm sure you find nothing offensive or wrong about sport team nicknames like The Washington Redskins?

There is a stark difference between referring to the Far East as "the Orient," and referring to someone as an "oriental." You are right in that oriental is offensive, but not in the use of the word the Orient, which is used to describe the area of Asianic countries. There is also a huge difference between people on this forum, who happen to listen to songs like "Rockabye," know it's archaic implications, but are smart enough to not take them literally, and people like Sterling, who are outlandish, unstable bigots. Listening to "Rockabye" does not put someone on the same level as Sterling, and it certainly does not imply that they hold any prejudicial ideals.

[honest man]

Marv You are foul in my opinion. also VILE AND DISGUSTING,And to whoever i don't care what your view off Football baseball team names ,aL jOLSON ETC, iHAVE MY OWN VIEWS,THANK GOD I WAS BROUGHT UP IN A NORMAL SOCIETY IN THE UK,YOU REALLY ARE A PATHETIC BUNCH.GET REAL............

[kenneth]

I think it's time for a mercy killing...would someone please put this thread out of its misery???

[honest man]

http://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearne..._in_blackface/ THATS SHOWBIZ

[marv2]

Marv You are foul in my opinion. also VILE AND DISGUSTING,And to whoever i don't care what your view off Football baseball team names ,aL jOLSON ETC, iHAVE MY OWN VIEWS,THANK GOD I WAS BROUGHT UP IN A NORMAL SOCIETY IN THE UK,YOU REALLY ARE A PATHETIC BUNCH.GET REAL............


I believe you are a very disingenuous person which is why you chose the profile name that you did and not use your real name. These are your exact words from just above:

"Ireally don't understand the Malicous responce.about the song.Offensive Never would i insult anyone either."

Then you turn right around and call me "Foul", someone you do not know or have ever met!


You are vulgar but you believe you are pious! Of course you do not care about someone else's view of what offends them be it a team name like the "Redskins" or a "Coon Caller" which is how Jolson referred to himself! You are ridiculous and a gross waste of my TIME!

Now, Al Jolson promoted racial stereotypes for fame and money and in the process hurt scores of people that he could less about. They were unknown to him.

[marv2]

http://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearne..._in_blackface/ THATS SHOWBIZ

You can do whatever you want to try to defend the practice of wearing "black face" for entertainment, it is still wrong and it will always be wrong! It's your perogative to try to champion this disgusting practice, but it is wrong!

[144man]

You can do whatever you want to try to defend the practice of wearing "black face" for entertainment, it is still wrong and it will always be wrong! It's your perogative to try to champion this disgusting practice, but it is wrong!

It was wrong, but it wasn't accepted as being wrong. We know better now.

[144man]

I think it's time for a mercy killing...would someone please put this thread out of its misery???

I don't think this thread should be deleted for the following reasons:

a) I don't believe in censorship.

b) The debate about Al Jolson is a valid one to have.

c) It would be disrespectful to people who have taken the trouble to contribute to this thread.

d) Anyone else who has read this thread would have completely wasted their time.

e) The subject hasn't been exhausted yet.

[smark21]

There is a stark difference between referring to the Far East as "the Orient," and referring to someone as an "oriental." You are right in that oriental is offensive, but not in the use of the word the Orient, which is used to describe the area of Asianic countries. There is also a huge difference between people on this forum, who happen to listen to songs like "Rockabye," know it's archaic implications, but are smart enough to not take them literally, and people like Sterling, who are outlandish, unstable bigots. Listening to "Rockabye" does not put someone on the same level as Sterling, and it certainly does not imply that they hold any prejudicial ideals.

But it is Eurocentric to refer to Asia as the Far East or the orient. Far East of what? Only if one regards Europe as the center of the world with the Americas as the West and Asia as the East. People in Asia may look at it differently--Europe is the West and the Americas are the "far East". Also, and this is something I remember the woman in college telling me, to describe all cultures in Asia as "orient" or "oriental" is to disregard the differences in the various cultures, whether they be Thai, Chinese, Mongolian, etc. They can't be lumped into one group, just as there are differences between Germans, French, etc. This harkens to a point I made earlier in this thread--racism, ethnocentrism, and racial supremeacy are so woven into all aspects of our culture that we accept certain concepts without thinking about them, they just seem natural. Sometimes time marches on and we can look back and see they are offensive, prejudiced, bigoted, racist, what have you. As in the case of Blackface and minstrel songs. But people being people, who want to think of themselves as good and well intentioned, will understandably get defensive when something they may have enjoyed or cherished or accepted as the "natural" way of doing things represents, directly or indirectly, something ugly and dehumanizing. Rock a Bye Your Baby with a Dixie Melody isn't a directly racist song, but the lyrics tell a story of a person who wants their "mammy" [[or mommy in sanitized versions) to sing them the old minstrel songs that sentimentalized plantation and slavery life and take them back to the days of childhood.

[144man]

I'm English, not German, French or Spanish. I don't see why it would bother me to be called Occidental unless there were some malicious intent to it.

[antceleb12]

But it is Eurocentric to refer to Asia as the Far East or the orient. Far East of what? Only if one regards Europe as the center of the world with the Americas as the West and Asia as the East. People in Asia may look at it differently--Europe is the West and the Americas are the "far East". Also, and this is something I remember the woman in college telling me, to describe all cultures in Asia as "orient" or "oriental" is to disregard the differences in the various cultures, whether they be Thai, Chinese, Mongolian, etc. They can't be lumped into one group, just as there are differences between Germans, French, etc. This harkens to a point I made earlier in this thread--racism, ethnocentrism, and racial supremeacy are so woven into all aspects of our culture that we accept certain concepts without thinking about them, they just seem natural. Sometimes time marches on and we can look back and see they are offensive, prejudiced, bigoted, racist, what have you. As in the case of Blackface and minstrel songs. But people being people, who want to think of themselves as good and well intentioned, will understandably get defensive when something they may have enjoyed or cherished or accepted as the "natural" way of doing things represents, directly or indirectly, something ugly and dehumanizing. Rock a Bye Your Baby with a Dixie Melody isn't a directly racist song, but the lyrics tell a story of a person who wants their "mammy" [[or mommy in sanitized versions) to sing them the old minstrel songs that sentimentalized plantation and slavery life and take them back to the days of childhood.

You have a fair point, but while Asian countries are referred to as the East, America and the entirety of Europe is referred to as the west - so then what is centralized? Certainly not Europe or America. Secondly, as least where I'm from, the term "Orient" was used as interchangeable as "Asia" - meaning that just like Asia, the Orient refers to a collective group of Asian countries. If the problem is that it's disregarding various cultures, how is it different than calling all European countries "European?" Hungary is very different from France, Switzerland from Italy, etc. Same goes with Africa. It's the same thing. Frankly, I know many Asian people [[from various countries) who have never found offense with the East being referred to as the Orient. Until now, I have actually never heard the word "Orient" being referred to as offensive. Definitely "oriental," but never the Orient.

Now I'm not defending blackface - I've always found it unsettling, but in terms of songs like "Rockabye" and "Swanee," particularly in this day and age, it seems that the lyrics are outdated - meaning that when people sing them, or listen to them, people aren't thinking about it's allusions. It would be one thing if Garland was performing it with the intent to refer to a romanticized picture of the "gallant South," but it was purely for entertainment. I have no doubt that in the wrong context, "Rockabye" or "Swanee" can be used to perpetuate stereotypes, but as time goes on, the songs are losing more and more of their historical connections and becoming more and more a part of pure entertainment. My point is that the viewers who willingly watched the Supremes perform "Rockabye" on television or stage probably did not get anything from the song but glitzy stage patter, costumes, and harmonies. Had they performed the song sitting in a cornfield with Aunt Jemima-style hair wraps and blackface - hell yeah, that's a problem! Let's also not forget that they changed the lyrics, too. So when they sang it, there was no "mammy" or "old black joe." Given that, the song loses any racial allusions.

[144man]

Poor Soulballad must be regretting ever posting the video. No one could have predicted where it would lead.

[milven]

Now I'm not defending blackface - I've always found it unsettling, but in terms of songs like "Rockabye" and "Swanee," particularly in this day and age, it seems that the lyrics are outdated - meaning that when people sing them, or listen to them, people aren't thinking about it's allusions. It would be one thing if Garland was performing it with the intent to refer to a romanticized picture of the "gallant South," but it was purely for entertainment. I have no doubt that in the wrong context, "Rockabye" or "Swanee" can be used to perpetuate stereotypes, but as time goes on, the songs are losing more and more of their historical connections and becoming more and more a part of pure entertainment. My point is that the viewers who willingly watched the Supremes perform "Rockabye" on television or stage probably did not get anything from the song but glitzy stage patter, costumes, and harmonies. Had they performed the song sitting in a cornfield with Aunt Jemima-style hair wraps and blackface - hell yeah, that's a problem! Let's also not forget that they changed the lyrics, too. So when they sang it, there was no "mammy" or "old black joe." Given that, the song loses any racial allusions.


Judy Garland also changed the lyric by the time she sang it here with Andy William in 1965.
Only a year earlier on her TV show she was still singing the original Al Jolson "Old Black Joe" lyric. But here they changed it "sweet and low".

As for Rockabye Your Baby, it is interesting that three of the greatest entertainers of the 20th Century -Jolson, Garland and Sammy Davis, sang the song in their act; the Queen of Soul had one of her first hits with it, and the top female group of the 20th Century sometime included it in their act.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8j8f-TKrmI

[marv2]

Judy Garland also changed the lyric by the time she sang it here with Andy William in 1965.
Only a year earlier on her TV show she was still singing the original Al Jolson "Old Black Joe" lyric. But here they changed it "sweet and low".

As for Rockabye Your Baby, it is interesting that three of the greatest entertainers of the 20th Century -Jolson, Garland and Sammy Davis, sang the song in their act; the Queen of Soul had one of her first hits with it, and the top female group of the 20th Century sometime included it in their act.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8j8f-TKrmI

It just shows you how institutionalized racism is in America! For further proof, check this out.......hot off the presses!!!!

http://soulfuldetroit.com/showthread.php?11545-Clippers-Owner-Donald-Sterling-to-GF-Don-t-Bring-Black-People-to-My-Games-!

[jobeterob]

The talk here is on various subjects ~ the common thread is inequity, prejudice, racism, bigotry, unfairness, injustice.

We all suffer some injustice and some inequality in life ~ the worst of the injustices will be genocides that were inflicted on Jewish people and in Rwanda and slavery in various forms.

What is most admirable in life is those people that continue to thrive though being victims of terrible injustice ~ those people who lost their entire families to concentration camps in Europe or Cambodia or Rwanda or the Sudan and yet never give up hope, never become bitter, never give in to defeat, never lash out at the world because of the injustice visited on them.

Why are there people that never suffered anywhere near these injustices that are always lashing out at the world, at other peoples successes and go looking for every little matter to squawk about?

There is no answer to it ~ but they need to stand in front of the mirror and wonder "if it's them" and "why".

[milven]

...There is no answer to it ~ but they need to stand in front of the mirror and wonder "if it's them" and "why".

Maybe because "they" don't like Diana Ross

[marv2]

The talk here is on various subjects ~ the common thread is inequity, prejudice, racism, bigotry, unfairness, injustice.

We all suffer some injustice and some inequality in life ~ the worst of the injustices will be genocides that were inflicted on Jewish people and in Rwanda and slavery in various forms.

What is most admirable in life is those people that continue to thrive though being victims of terrible injustice ~ those people who lost their entire families to concentration camps in Europe or Cambodia or Rwanda or the Sudan and yet never give up hope, never become bitter, never give in to defeat, never lash out at the world because of the injustice visited on them.

Why are there people that never suffered anywhere near these injustices that are always lashing out at the world, at other peoples successes and go looking for every little matter to squawk about?

There is no answer to it ~ but they need to stand in front of the mirror and wonder "if it's them" and "why".

I expected nothing less of you! Your ignorance is as boundless as the sea!

Through your usual "sly put down style" [[which really isn't that sly, because most of us have seen through it and you for a long, long time...) Anyway, the point you will never get because you have a hard, fiendish type heart is that African Americans are still suffering after hundreds of years of discrimination, slavery and violence. Sure there are those that have suffered greatly in the 20th Century [[ as well as African Americans). You talk about losing entire families to concentration camps, how about losing your family routinely because they were sold off to a slave master in another State? How about losing your family members that were kidnapped and lynched never to be heard from again? How dare you? How dare you, try to pit one groups tragedies against another's? That is the main message I got from you grossly insensitive, idiotic posting!!! DAMN! You should be ashamed of yourself, but I've learned long ago, you have no shame! You also have no knowledge whatsover of the African American Experience. You listen to a few Diana Ross records and you think you know what it is all about!

I would not have believed you could get any more offensive than you have with your name calling of me personally, but now you go and try to say that Black Americans did not suffer anywhere near the injustices of Jewish people or those in Rwanda, Cambodia or the Sudan. I am beyond disgusted by your insensitivity and ignorance. I am going to refrain from calling you the name that i feel fits you at this moment. But have a nice ride on into Hell [[even though you claim not to believe in God Almighty!) You need counseling and you need it in a hurry.

[soulster]

Soulster, that's what the movie is actually called...I'm not going to refer you to a video with the wrong title. It was a house documentary produced by Motown in 1966 when the Supremes were on tour in what was then called the 'Orient.'

Secondly, the term 'the Orient' refers to the entire Middle East all together. I'm not sure which one country you are talking about because it's a very general term, just as 'the Americas' refers to both North, South, and Central America, or how Africa refers to the whole continent. I am not sure how that term is offensive. I have never heard it used in any derogatory fashion.
Well, Maybe you should ask some Asians what they think. I know that Koreans, in particular, bristle at that word.

[soulster]

The Orient has never been associated with only one country. My dictionary defines it as "the countries of the East" and does not describe it as a derogatory term.
That's the thing: All of these countries have differing cultures, and many of them are enemies. They really dislike being lumped into one group...like several English people I personally know are insulted to be called European.

[soulster]

I expected nothing less of you! Your ignorance is as boundless as the sea!

Through your usual "sly put down style" [[which really isn't that sly, because most of us have seen through it and you for a long, long time...) Anyway, the point you will never get because you have a hard, fiendish type heart is that African Americans are still suffering after hundreds of years of discrimination, slavery and violence. Sure there are those that have suffered greatly in the 20th Century [[ as well as African Americans). You talk about losing entire families to concentration camps, how about losing your family routinely because they were sold off to a slave master in another State? How about losing your family members that were kidnapped and lynched never to be heard from again? How dare you? How dare you, try to pit one groups tragedies against another's? That is the main message I got from you grossly insensitive, idiotic posting!!! DAMN! You should be ashamed of yourself, but I've learned long ago, you have no shame! You also have no knowledge whatsover of the African American Experience. You listen to a few Diana Ross records and you think you know what it is all about!

I would not have believed you could get any more offensive than you have with your name calling of me personally, but now you go and try to say that Black Americans did not suffer anywhere near the injustices of Jewish people or those in Rwanda, Cambodia or the Sudan. I am beyond disgusted by your insensitivity and ignorance. I am going to refrain from calling you the name that i feel fits you at this moment. But have a nice ride on into Hell [[even though you claim not to believe in God Almighty!) You need counseling and you need it in a hurry. And...wait...it's coming...the old "But I didn't do it!" line.

[soulster]

You can do whatever you want to try to defend the practice of wearing "black face" for entertainment, it is still wrong and it will always be wrong! It's your perogative to try to champion this disgusting practice, but it is wrong! Marv, yes, it is wrong and offensive. The good thing is that it is no longer an acceptable form of entertainment, and all but some racists condemn it. But, even many racists in that time also condemned it because they were upset that the practice of whites wearing blackface was being sympathetic toward Blacks. That bit supports one of the reasons why Al Jolson did it [[aside from the money and fame).

[soulster]

Now I'm not defending blackface - I've always found it unsettling, but in terms of songs like "Rockabye" and "Swanee," particularly in this day and age, it seems that the lyrics are outdated - meaning that when people sing them, or listen to them, people aren't thinking about it's allusions. It would be one thing if Garland was performing it with the intent to refer to a romanticized picture of the "gallant South," but it was purely for entertainment. I have no doubt that in the wrong context, "Rockabye" or "Swanee" can be used to perpetuate stereotypes, but as time goes on, the songs are losing more and more of their historical connections and becoming more and more a part of pure entertainment. My point is that the viewers who willingly watched the Supremes perform "Rockabye" on television or stage probably did not get anything from the song but glitzy stage patter, costumes, and harmonies. Had they performed the song sitting in a cornfield with Aunt Jemima-style hair wraps and blackface - hell yeah, that's a problem! Let's also not forget that they changed the lyrics, too. So when they sang it, there was no "mammy" or "old black joe." Given that, the song loses any racial allusions. As long as there are people remember the meanings of these songs, it will be offensive.

Back in 1973, a white band named "Stories" recorded a song called "Brother Louie". From that same album, they released a followup single called "Mammy Blue" that had a respectable [[for the 70s) chart rating. I Googled up the lyrics and mostly found French artists had recorded the song. There is absolutely nothing racist or even questionable in the lyrics, apart from the word "mammy". There were no objections to the song that I recall, not controversy whatsoever that I was aware of. But, that word probably kept the song from getting any higher.

[marv2]

And...wait...it's coming...the old "But I didn't do it!" line.

It will be either that or another one of their endless personal attacks on me.......

[marv2]

As long as there are people remember the meanings of these songs, it will be offensive.

Back in 1973, a white band named "Stories" recorded a song called "Brother Louie". From that same album, they released a followup single called "Mammy Blue" that had a respectable [[for the 70s) chart rating. I Googled up the lyrics and mostly found French artists had recorded the song. There is absolutely nothing racist or even questionable in the lyrics, apart from the word "mammy". There were no objections to the song that I recall, not controversy whatsoever that I was aware of. But, that word probably kept the song from getting any higher.


I remember both of those songs when they were new and hot on the radio. Although I was only in Jr. High, I knew what the song "Brother Louie" was about. Several years earlier, Bobby and the Vancouvers had a hit with "Does Your Mama Know About Me" which at the time I did not know or understand what the song was about.

Another song that was popular in the mid-70's that made me cringe was "Play That Funky Music White Boy" from 1976. It had a nice groove and was easy to dance to but I had a problem with the lyrics and storyline. It came across [[TO ME) like it was relaying a story of a group of black people ,surprised that a white guy could be soulful and cheering him on. To my mind, even at that age ,anyone could be soulful regardless of color or heritage if they wanted to be or whatever. So that was one song that irritated me somewhat........

[antceleb12]

Well, Maybe you should ask some Asians what they think. I know that Koreans, in particular, bristle at that word.

In a previous post, I mentioned that my Asian friends [[some of whom are first generation Americans) don't find it offensive in the least. This discussion is the first time I've ever heard that some people find it offensive. Oriental, yes, I get that completely. But Orient? If we're going to take that away, we should consider stop calling people European, or American, or African, etc.

[jobeterob]

I expected nothing less of you! Your ignorance is as boundless as the sea!

Through your usual "sly put down style" [[which really isn't that sly, because most of us have seen through it and you for a long, long time...) Anyway, the point you will never get because you have a hard, fiendish type heart is that African Americans are still suffering after hundreds of years of discrimination, slavery and violence. Sure there are those that have suffered greatly in the 20th Century [[ as well as African Americans). You talk about losing entire families to concentration camps, how about losing your family routinely because they were sold off to a slave master in another State? How about losing your family members that were kidnapped and lynched never to be heard from again? How dare you? How dare you, try to pit one groups tragedies against another's? That is the main message I got from you grossly insensitive, idiotic posting!!! DAMN! You should be ashamed of yourself, but I've learned long ago, you have no shame! You also have no knowledge whatsover of the African American Experience. You listen to a few Diana Ross records and you think you know what it is all about!

I would not have believed you could get any more offensive than you have with your name calling of me personally, but now you go and try to say that Black Americans did not suffer anywhere near the injustices of Jewish people or those in Rwanda, Cambodia or the Sudan. I am beyond disgusted by your insensitivity and ignorance. I am going to refrain from calling you the name that i feel fits you at this moment. But have a nice ride on into Hell [[even though you claim not to believe in God Almighty!) You need counseling and you need it in a hurry.

Whhhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa! Whaaaaaaaaaaaa! Whaaaaaaaaa!

[honest man]

I believe you are a very disingenuous person which is why you chose the profile name that you did and not use your real name. These are your exact words from just above:

"Ireally don't understand the Malicous responce.about the song.Offensive Never would i insult anyone either."

Then you turn right around and call me "Foul", someone you do not know or have ever met!


You are vulgar but you believe you are pious! Of course you do not care about someone else's view of what offends them be it a team name like the "Redskins" or a "Coon Caller" which is how Jolson referred to himself! You are ridiculous and a gross waste of my TIME!

Now, Al Jolson promoted racial stereotypes for fame and money and in the process hurt scores of people that he could less about. They were unknown to him YES I AM HONEST WOULD NOT INSULT PEOPLE[unlike you],JUST STATING A FACT.YOU ARE TROUBLE TO THIS SITE.have a nice day.IM OUT FOR THE DAY WON'T BE SOME SAD BOD SAT ON PC WAITING TO POST NEGATIVE REMARKS,BY THE WAY YOU ALSO HAVE DISREGARDED THE MODERATORS REQUEST TO STOP POSTING ITEMS FROM THE INTERNETON THIS SITE,LINKS ABOVE FOR STARTERS AND YOUR YOU TUBE THREADS FROM LAST COUPLE OF DAYS,YOU HAVE NO RESPECT FOR THIS SITE,NOT BEING INSULTING JUST HONEST SEE YA.

[honest man]

But have a nice ride on into Hell [[even though you claim not to believe in God Almighty!) You need counseling and you need it in a hurry.Comments like this i find VILE AND DISGUSTING,Understand.

[Roberta75]

It will be either that or another one of their endless personal attacks on me.......

Lol you sure as heck can play the victim marv2. Hows about all them disgusting and vile and ignorant and hateful homophobic personal attacks you make on YouTube under the names of DetroitLive313?

How about all you personal attacks in this here forum when you call folks dumb and stupid and other name. Smh just smh at you hypocrisy. Poor marv2.

Pot meet kettle.

Roberta

[marv2]

Lol you sure as heck can play the victim marv2. Hows about all them disgusting and vile and ignorant and hateful homophobic personal attacks you make on YouTube under the names of DetroitLive313?

How about all you personal attacks in this here forum when you call folks dumb and stupid and other name. Smh just smh at you hypocrisy. Poor marv2.

Pot meet kettle.

Roberta

Jonc, Cluckie, we know all about you , so you might want to cut your stuff and move on. You talk about me almost as much as you talked about my "Motown Special" on here several years ago before Ralph banned you for being so obnoxious.

PS, we also know about your other "active" aliases you are using on here now.........

[Roberta75]

Jonc, Cluckie, we know all about you , so you might want to cut your stuff and move on. You talk about me almost as much as you talked about my "Motown Special" on here several years ago before Ralph banned you for being so obnoxious.

PS, we also know about your other "active" aliases you are using on here now.........

Im Roberta Fonseca and have no aliases dear and no intention of moving on. Youre sounding real real paranoid marv2 and your victim act is obnoxious and we aren't buying it.

Now confirm or deny that you are DetroitLIVE313 on YouTube please?

Have a blessed and beutiful Sunday.

Roberta

[marv2]

Im Roberta Fonseca and have no aliases dear and no intention of moving on. Youre sounding real real paranoid marv2 and your victim act is obnoxious and we aren't buying it.

Now confirm or deny that you are DetroitLIVE313 on YouTube please?

Have a blessed and beutiful Sunday.

Roberta

Who are you going to pretend to be next week? Mary Poppins? My name is Marv!

[jobeterob]

Marv is a self-appointed flame thrower on social media. Like many of these folks, he seems infused with a prior condition of bitterness towards anybody who dares to have a different view than his.

Anger management courses will help.

And even if Miss Ross pitched him from a concert, big deal. He doesn't love the music anyway. Mary got her to do it.

[Roberta75]

Who are you going to pretend to be next week? Mary Poppins? My name is Marv!

Marv 'DetroitLIVE313' Davis who isnt man enough to admit hes DetroitLIVE313. Marv who pretend that Mary Wilson is his good friend. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

[LadyLola]

Marv 'DetroitLIVE313' Davis who isnt man enough to admit hes DetroitLIVE313. Marv who pretend that Mary Wilson is his good friend. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Sounds like he's full of shit to me.

[kenneth]

Actually, the YouTube ID is detroitliveS313 - don't leave out the 'S'.

Here's a link to a Mary Wilson video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKTPX6_ELQQ&list=PL45C38BE07E169966

I'm happy to report though that detroitlives313 doesn't engage in any Diane bashing on this thread, even though there's some really awful postings in there trashing Mary's performance and making some really nasty, disgusting comments about her. You may also note that our own Jobeterob makes a few comments as well [[which are not the nasty ones, but still I'm happy to see they didn't provoke detroitlives313).

[kenneth]

And here's another...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKggpPxQ6vY

In this one you will note that DetroitLives313 responds - very appropriately - to someone saying Diane is far superior with the following comment:

https://gp4.googleusercontent.com/-DHxvnyFssX8/AAAAAAAAAAI/AAAAAAAAAAA/ROvTi1bWS_A/s48-c-k-no/photo.jpg [[http://www.youtube.com/user/DetroitLives313)DetroitLives313 [[http://www.youtube.com/user/DetroitLives313)

2 years ago [[http://www.youtube.com/comment?lc=8ZJve5gTqQXQGGYbffz46ojMmVSMcY5TiDoMgXk ZhBc)in reply to Erica M [[http://www.youtube.com/all_comments?v=QKggpPxQ6vY&lc=8ZJve5gTqQU-RDRonBUxV574XGumvm-eLWEDTZbEY_I)


@erica18mj It is very possible to like them both! That's how most of us came to like them to begin with, together.......as a group!

[kenneth]

I do believe that DetroitLives313 and Marv are one and the same, but I think - and hope - that he's left the vitriol behind. These were the first two random examples I found, and they're not really very recent, so if indeed Marv has toned it down, I'm glad. The nasty and anti-gay stuff I've seen posted under that name, Marv my brother, are not worthy of you.

[soulster]

I believe you are a very disingenuous person which is why you chose the profile name that you did and not use your real name.

Last time I looked, hardly anyone uses their real name on this forum, probably for good reason!



Now, Al Jolson promoted racial stereotypes for fame and money and in the process hurt scores of people that he could less about.

This has been shown to be 100% untrue.


They were unknown to him

This is also untrue by some accounts.

[soulster]

Lol you sure as heck can play the victim marv2. Hows about all them disgusting and vile and ignorant and hateful homophobic personal attacks you make on YouTube under the names of DetroitLive313?

I propose that, unless ANYONE on this forum is willing to provide evidence of this, all should cease throwing this up repeatedly. People may attempt to cover up their tracks, but it's the internet, so things will always remain somewhere. I hope one of you had the sense to copy and save the alleged offending words and videos, and can prove Marv is whom you all say he is.

I am not a friend or defender of Marv, but if people repeatedly made accusations like this in the established media without evidence, they'd be looking at a libel lawsuit. Just sayin'...


How about all you personal attacks in this here forum when you call folks dumb and stupid and other name. Smh just smh at you hypocrisy. Poor marv2.

We are all guilty of it, but, it's stuff like name-calling that makes me think that Ralph should reconsider his no-rules position and create some. He should put it in writing. If there is a "report" feature in this forum software, Lowell should enable it. It's better than sending an email.

From what I see, Marv is still here because he has not called anyone names and continually personally attacked anyone. And, if he has in the past, Ralph has obviously forgiven him.

[soulster]

It will be either that or another one of their endless personal attacks on me....... Yes or no: did you do what what they say you did? I'm a neutral party. Tell the truth.

I have been honest on this forum, and it hasn't sat well with a couple of people, like Kenneth, but I have never insulted a group of people in a vile way [[except maybe republicans and tea-partiers). :)

[Roberta75]

I am not a friend or defender of Marv, but if people repeatedly made accusations like this in the established media without evidence, they'd be looking at a libel lawsuit

From what I see, Marv is still here because he has not called anyone names and continually personally attacked anyone.

Marv hasnt got a Hope in H E double L of winning a lawsuit cause theres proof out there that marv2 is DetroitLIVE313. So Id say bring it on.

he has personally attack many people on this here forum but hes got some sor t of Immunity which isnt for me to question as I dont run this here forum.

R oberta

[marv2]

Yes or no: did you do what what they say you did? I'm a neutral party. Tell the truth.

I have been honest on this forum, and it hasn't sat well with a couple of people, like Kenneth, but I have never insulted a group of people in a vile way [[except maybe republicans and tea-partiers). :)

Have you ever seen me insult any group of people on Soulful Detroit? Go read your mail......

[marv2]

Marv hasnt got a Hope in H E double L of winning a lawsuit cause theres proof out there that marv2 is DetroitLIVE313. So Id say bring it on.

he has personally attack many people on this here forum but hes got some sor t of Immunity which isnt for me to question as I dont run this here forum.

R oberta

Look Jonc, aka Clucketta, you are just sore that you have been continuously banned from here for exactly what you are doing now. Ralph does not need this headache that you are preparing for him sooooooo knock it off!

[soulster]

Another song that was popular in the mid-70's that made me cringe was "Play That Funky Music White Boy" from 1976.

The phrase "white boy" was never part of the title.


It had a nice groove and was easy to dance to but I had a problem with the lyrics and storyline. It came across [[TO ME) like it was relaying a story of a group of black people ,surprised that a white guy could be soulful and cheering him on.

According to the song's writer and lead singer, Robert Parissi, the story is true. He wrote it on a napkin between sets.


To my mind, even at that age ,anyone could be soulful regardless of color or heritage if they wanted to be or whatever. So that was one song that irritated me somewhat........

If you were Black and living in the 70s, you would know that being a White band playing soul/funk music was rare. Most people, White and Black, thought Wild Cherry [[The Average White Band and Boz Scaggs included) were Black. Remember that the band's faces were not on the album cover for that reason. People judged the music by how the band looked, and they still do. When is the last time you browsed section of a record store? Mis-slots everywhere!

The only place I know of where people had a problem with "Play That Funky Music" was in the south, where the band had to create an alternate radio version that removed the "white boy" phrase. Otherwise, no one I knew ever had a problem with it. White guys dug the song! The song went to #1 in September of that year. In fact, on their second album, they did the theme again, and this time used the word "honkey" on the lead single.

[soulster]

Jonc, Cluckie, we know all about you , so you might want to cut your stuff and move on. You talk about me almost as much as you talked about my "Motown Special" on here several years ago before Ralph banned you for being so obnoxious.

Ralph should consider automatically banning anyone who pops back up with a new user name. It would be so easy to verify if the person uses a static IP address.

I am aware of at least one alias.

[marv2]

The phrase "white boy" was never part of the title.



According to the song's writer and the band's lead singer, Robert Parissi, the story is true. He wrote it on a napkin between sets.



If you were Black and living in the 70s, you would know that being a White band playing soul/funk music was rare. Most people, White and Black, thought Wild Cherry [[The Average White Band and Boz Scaggs included) were Black. remember that the band' faces were not on the album cover for that reason. People judged the music by how the band looked, and they still do. When is the last time you browsed section of a record store? Mis-slots everywhere!

The only place I know of where people had a problem with "Play That Funky Music" was in the south, where the band had to create an alternate radio version that removed the "white boy" phrase. Otherwise, no one I knew ever had a problem with it. The song went to #1 in September of that year. In fact, on their second album, they did the theme again, and this time used the word "honkey" on the lead single.

Well, see I was listening to Rare Earth, the Guess Who and people like Bob Seger years before that record came out and I never thought once.....hmmmmm, these guys are white, but yet they are soulful. It was about whether i liked the sound or not. Oh yeah the title was "Play That Funky Music", what I posted was the chorus.......

[soulster]

Marv hasnt got a Hope in H E double L of winning a lawsuit cause theres proof out there that marv2 is DetroitLIVE313. So Id say bring it on.

he has personally attack many people on this here forum but hes got some sor t of Immunity which isnt for me to question as I dont run this here forum.

Roberta Kenneth, who has, BTW, viciously attacked me in the recent past, provided a couple of links, but I didn't see anything that even remotely smacked of vile anti-gay comments. I actually have him on ignore, but only viewed his posts here to see what he could provide the offending stuff.

You, still have not given me anything but accusations and no hard evidence.

[kenneth]

Kenneth, who has, BTW, viciously attacked me in the recent past, provided a couple of links, but I didn't see anything that even remotely smacked of vile anti-gay comments. I actually have him on ignore, but only viewed his posts here to see what he could provide the offending stuff.

You, still have not given me anything but accusations and no hard evidence.

If you read my comments along with the links I had sent, you would see that my point was to show that the comments seemed to have ceased. That was my point.

I'm not interested in proving what comments were made in the past. I've read them before. I commend Marv/DetroitLives313 if they have abated. I like Marv and prefer to think we can all "evolve" and mature in such ways.

[Roberta75]

Look Jonc, aka Clucketta, you are just sore that you have been continuously banned from here for exactly what you are doing now. Ralph does not need this headache that you are preparing for him sooooooo knock it off!

And Ralph must be real tired of you kissing his rear end.

[soulster]

Look Jonc, aka Clucketta, you are just sore that you have been continuously banned from here for exactly what you are doing now. Ralph does not need this headache that you are preparing for him sooooooo knock it off! There's always the ignore feature. If they don't have an audience or a target, they won't have any reason to post stuff, and you won't have to read it. That goes for anybody on this forum.

[soulster]

Well, see I was listening to Rare Earth, the Guess Who and people like Bob Seger years before that record came out and I never thought once.....hmmmmm, these guys are white, but yet they are soulful. It was about whether i liked the sound or not. Oh yeah the title was "Play That Funky Music", what I posted was the chorus....... Yeah, but, those bands you mentioned sounded White, to me, anyway. I am a year or two younger than you, and even I could tell. The ones that did throw me were Joe Jeffery [[Group) singing "My Pledge of Love", and and Tony Joe White singing "Polk Salad Anne". Joe Jeffery is Black, Tony Joe White is White.

[soulster]

If you read my comments along with the links I had sent, you would see that my point was to show that the comments seemed to have ceased. That was my point.

I'm not interested in proving what comments were made in the past. I've read them before. I commend Marv/DetroitLives313 if they have abated. I like Marv and prefer to think we can all "evolve" and mature in such ways.
Can you "evolve" and mature from vile name calling and insults too?

[Roberta75]

Have you ever seen me insult any group of people on Soulful Detroit? Go read your mail......

Im lol at this. its true that you never insult any group of people on Soulful Detroit but you do insult individual members. I think what dear Soulster was asking you was did you or have you made bigoted and hateful homophobic comments over at YouTube which youve yet to confirm or deny. You can call me clucketa or JohnC or Gladys Pipster or Mary morgan till you blue in the face but all you doing is defelectting the question.

I know who i am and so do most on this here forum and Im Roberta Fonseca.

You can put this all to to bed by answering this 1 question are you DetroitLIVe313 at YouTube and did you or have you made bigoted and hateful homophobic comments over at YouTube? Please answer truthfuly.

Roberta

[kenneth]

Can you "evolve" and mature from vile name calling and insults too?

I have never done this, to you or anyone else. Do me a favor and put me back on "ignore."

[marv2]

And Ralph must be real tired of you kissing his rear end.

See when you say vulgar and disrespectful things like this, it just makes it hard for anyone to believe that you are this benevolent church lady you try so hard to portray yourself to be. Ralph is a great guy, a really good human being [[so am I) and does not deserve you smearing him the way that you do. If you are so unhappy here, maybe you should leave? Try staying on topic sometime rather than falling into you regular character assassination attempts on people when you disagree with something they've said.

[marv2]

I have never done this, to you or anyone else. Do me a favor and put me back on "ignore."

See guys, this is unnecessary! This is the kind of thing Roberta, Jobeterob wants! They want you at each others throats. They sit behind their computers and enjoy the fights that they are ALWAYS at the root of. All you need do is to read back on this thread and you will see how we got to where we are now. Roberta lives for this kind of thing. She wants acrimony at all costs!

[marv2]

Im lol at this. its true that you never insult any group of people on Soulful Detroit but you do insult individual members. I think what dear Soulster was asking you was did you or have you made bigoted and hateful homophobic comments over at YouTube which youve yet to confirm or deny. You can call me clucketa or JohnC or Gladys Pipster or Mary morgan till you blue in the face but all you doing is defelectting the question.

I know who i am and so do most on this here forum and Im Roberta Fonseca.

You can put this all to to bed by answering this 1 question are you DetroitLIVe313 at YouTube and did you or have you made bigoted and hateful homophobic comments over at YouTube? Please answer truthfuly.

Roberta

Look Jonc, Ralph was nice enough to let you rejoin here, the least you could do is not cause him any undue stress by staying on topic or ignoring threads where you cannot contribute.

[honest man]

i really can't be bothered ,the moderator also can;t be bothered,yawn.

[kenneth]

See guys, this is unnecessary! This is the kind of thing Roberta, Jobeterob wants! They want you at each others throats. They sit behind their computers and enjoy the fights that they are ALWAYS at the root of. All you need do is to read back on this thread and you will see how we got to where we are now. Roberta lives for this kind of thing. She wants acrimony at all costs!

I guess the comment about being put back on "ignore" didn't need to be said, but honestly, Marv, it seems Soulster wants the threads to be all about him. Anyway, for what it's worth, I accept your criticism. You know I seldom if ever take comments personally.

[marv2]

Yeah, but, those bands you mentioned sounded White, to me, anyway. I am a year or two younger than you, and even I could tell. The ones that did throw me were Joe Jeffery [[Group) singing "My Pledge of Love", and and Tony Joe White singing "Polk Salad Anne". Joe Jeffery is Black, Tony Joe White is White.


You just made me remember something. For years I thought Vicki Sue Robinson was white until I met her over in Jersey one time. LOL! She was great RIP.

Now that Polk Salad Anne did sound like a black singer [[a bit like Larry Graham to me....) The others i am not familiar with. My bands [[Rare Earth, Guess Who, Bob Seger Silver Bullet Band) were just Soulful and they did not sound contrived. David Clayton Thomas and BST put out some very soulful cuts, but I knew there were white and he was from Canada just from watching TV back in the day. Still I bought all of their music that I liked just for that reason.......I liked the music, the sound, etc.

[honest man]

i love AL JOLSON DRATS ,Whatever your warped perception of this.i DON'T CARE,by the way a redskin to me in the uk is an onion or potato,do i care .

[marv2]

I guess the comment about being put back on "ignore" didn't need to be said, but honestly, Marv, it seems Soulster wants the threads to be all about him. Anyway, for what it's worth, I accept your criticism. You know I seldom if ever take comments personally.

Kenneth, Let's just ignore that stuff and discuss the music and interesting social topics, cool?

[marv2]

i love AL JOLSON DRATS ,Whatever your warped perception of this.i DON'T CARE,by the way a redskin to me in the uk is an onion or potato,do i care .

Fine and I don't care that you don't care.

[kenneth]

Kenneth, Let's just ignore that stuff and discuss the music and interesting social topics, cool?

I'm with you.

[honest man]

Ralph really needs to eliminate you from SDF you are bad news ,even the way you ignore his post about uploading internets copyright,you are a law to yourself,your comments are vile .you really are trouble on SDF ,AND RALPH SHOULD BAN YOU.

[marv2]

I'm with you.

Great and thanks!

[smark21]

Here's a clip of Al Jolson in the 1934 movie Wonder Bar "saluting and honoring" African Americans in this production number staged by Busby Berkeley. Enjoy honestman.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jIVuuNcg3w

[marv2]

Here's a clip of Al Jolson in the 1934 movie Wonder Bar "saluting and honoring" African Americans in this production number staged by Busby Berkeley. Enjoy honestman.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jIVuuNcg3w

Oh that was horribly disgusting!
I could watch the first 10 seconds when the children came into view. There are people that like this kind of racist stuff? What am I talking about, this is premium entertainment to Honest Man. Geez.........

[Lulu]

I'm sorry but I don't see much of a difference between attacking members of this forum and attacking Motown/Detroit artists with the same level of vitriol. This forum is meant to be a place for us to share our collective interest in Detroit and Motown soul music. I'm not sure calling Diana Ross "fat" or a "dumb b*tch" or a "drunk" should be tolerated here. Ditto for any low blows to Mary Wilson or any of the other acts, most of whom have all fallen on hard times at one point in their lives and careers. I simply don't get the need for this sort of commentary or how it even relates to the forums or why the moderators even tolerate it. As a woman, I find those words highly offensive and to some degree, a bit misogynistic. Can you imagine if we drudged up all of the low points in David Ruffin or Marvin Gaye's lives? What about Florence Ballard for Christ's sake? Death seems to have canonized these figures while we still deem it acceptable to tear down Miss Ross and Miss Wilson for their own personal struggles and hardships. Regardless of how we feel about their music or the salacious details of their personal lives, I think we can all agree that the Supremes, Diana Ross and Berry Gordy really put Motown and Detroit on the map for the rest of the country and the world so how about we rise above the petty insults and just keep a lid on it if we're not interested in a particular forum?

[marv2]

I'm sorry but I don't see much of a difference between attacking members of this forum and attacking Motown/Detroit artists with the same level of vitriol. This forum is meant to be a place for us to share our collective interest in Detroit and Motown soul music. I'm not sure calling Diana Ross "fat" or a "dumb b*tch" or a "drunk" should be tolerated here. Ditto for any low blows to Mary Wilson or any of the other acts, most of whom have all fallen on hard times at one point in their lives and careers. I simply don't get the need for this sort of commentary or how it even relates to the forums or why the moderators even tolerate it. As a woman, I find those words highly offensive and to some degree, a bit misogynistic. Can you imagine if we drudged up all of the low points in David Ruffin or Marvin Gaye's lives? What about Florence Ballard for Christ's sake? Death seems to have canonized these figures while we still deem it acceptable to tear down Miss Ross and Miss Wilson for their own personal struggles and hardships. Regardless of how we feel about their music or the salacious details of their personal lives, I think we can all agree that the Supremes, Diana Ross and Berry Gordy really put Motown and Detroit on the map for the rest of the country and the world so how about we rise above the petty insults and just keep a lid on it if we're not interested in a particular forum?

Sorry but you're off topic.

[Roberta75]

Look Jonc, Ralph was nice enough to let you rejoin here, the least you could do is not cause him any undue stress by staying on topic or ignoring threads where you cannot contribute.

Your playing the Ralph card prove you have no shame and your fake and shameless sucking up to Ralph is a real low tactic cause what your trying to do is get Ralph to zap this here thread. smh at your low down tactic. Now LISTED GOOD DetriotLIVES313. I have no issue with Ralph and Ralph and I have no problem with each other and Ralph and me get along real well.

You have yet to you answer truthfully if you are DetroitLIVe313 at YouTube and have yet to admit or deny that you made bigoted and hateful homophobic comments over at YouTube? Your silence confirm that you are so with that said you stick me on ignore and Ill stick you on ignore and hear this real good I HAVE NO intention of leaving this here forum but im prepared to ignore you but just remember one thing. I have SEEN all your hateful comments about gay and lesbian people and have seen your comments about Diane Ross and Berry Gordy killing Flo Ballard. Im being truthful here but you cant be so im moving on from YOU and pray that the good Lord can forgive all the hate and evil that you have wrote about gays and lesbians at youtube becuase we are ALL Gods children and that includes YOU but you better start making it right with the man upstairs. Have you any idea the hurt and pain your comments cause and cowardly homophobes like you are going to be the minority one day and one day you will answer for what you wrote.

Roberta

[Jimi LaLumia]

I'm gonna watch my deluxe DVD boxset of THE JAZZ SINGER now, thank you very much!!!

[soulster]

[QUOTE]You can put this all to to bed by answering this 1 question are you DetroitLIVe313 at YouTube and did you or have you made bigoted and hateful homophobic comments over at YouTube? Please answer truthfuly.

Now, i'm asking YOU: can you provide any actual comments made by Marv to that effect, WITH valid links?

[soulster]

I have never done this, to you or anyone else. Do me a favor and put me back on "ignore."
I could give you proof, unlike you. But, I would have to bug Ralph to retrieve them from the thread he pulled. It was on the thread where I asked why you particular gay guys on this forum are so obsessed with Diana Ross and other female singers. It's pretty easy to figure out who it is because ALL you guys do is talk about her and bash Marv, and, now, me.

But, i'll keep you on ignore. This is the last post I read from you and the other obsessed Ross/Wilson/Supremes fans. It's been fun, but I am now backing out of this whole stupid, childish, third-grade crap.

[soulster]

The others i am not familiar with.

Joe Jeffery Group had this Billboard top 20 hit in 1969:

http://youtu.be/Wy06Bw2a7Fs

[Roberta75]

Now, i'm asking YOU: can you provide any actual comments made by Marv to that effect, WITH valid links?

His homophobic hate filled comments at YouTube have all been posted in this here forum in the past and Im real sure youve seen them. He has been asked by you and about 6 other folks here to confirm or deny that he post homophobic vile comments at YouTube but he wont answer so that just prove everyones theory that hes DetroitLIVE313.

Now like you I am now backing out of this whole stupid, childish, third-grade nonsense.

Respectfully.

roberta

[marv2]

His homophobic hate filled comments at YouTube have all been posted in this here forum in the past and Im real sure youve seen them. He has been asked by you and about 6 other folks here to confirm or deny that he post homophobic vile comments at YouTube but he wont answer so that just prove everyones theory that hes DetroitLIVE313.

Now like you I am now backing out of this whole stupid, childish, third-grade nonsense.

Respectfully.

roberta

IF you truly believe that I am on Youtube posting all kinds of hate and filth, why aren't you over on Youtube telling all the members there? Why are you trying to build a case here at Soulful Detroit? What is your goal? You are exhibiting signs of Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder [[OCD). You may be on the verge of some kind of breakdown similar to when you constantly interrupted the forum a few years back by always talking about MY "Motown Special". You also strike me as a very bitter person for some reason. I may be wrong because I do not know you at all, but from what you post here daily, it sure sounds like you need help!

[marv2]

Joe Jeffery Group had this Billboard top 20 hit in 1969:

http://youtu.be/Wy06Bw2a7Fs

Oh yeah, OK now I remember this song. It has the feel of something Jose Feliciano would have recorded. Vocally, I can't really distinguish whether or not he was a black or white singer. Remember the song "Sunny" by Bobby Hebb? It was another one of those recording where it could have been anyone from any ethnic background singing it.

[kenneth]

But, i'll keep you on ignore. This is the last post I read from you and the other obsessed Ross/Wilson/Supremes fans. It's been fun, but I am now backing out of this whole stupid, childish, third-grade crap.

I am a fan of both Diane and Mary, and a friend of Marv's as well as Jobeterob's, Roberta's, and many others on this forum.

As for your retiring from the posting here, thanks for that.

[jobeterob]

Sounds like he's full of shit to me.

I can recall years ago Ralph asked that we not repeat some of the Youtube quotes commonly ascribed to Marv who has been said to be DetroitLives313 for years, without denial.

Sad when you can't even admit who you are and won't go on Facebook by your own identity.

It doesn't matter if you are fat or skinny, transgendered, straight, gay, black, white, brown or in between a bunch of those characteristics ~ but it does matter what kind of person you are. Angry bigoted bullies should not be tolerated and Marv has exhibited all those characteristics on this Forum ~ to one of the biggest stars of her day, to Roberta, to Milven, to Rick, and to a dozen other people who's names I'm not remembering.

Stand up to it. It's shameful conduct.

[honest man]

Oh that was horribly disgusting!
I could watch the first 10 seconds when the children came into view. There are people that like this kind of racist stuff? What am I talking about, this is premium entertainment to Honest Man. Geez.........

Ralph can you sort this Vile person out,He is now slandering me.Please.

[honest man]

Disgusting

[kenneth]

Marv -

Remember what you told me. Honest Man is a good guy. Rewind and let's focus on the music, guy.

Your bud, Kenneth