Holland and Dozier Lead Me and Guide Me

[luke]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o13f1bTmbzI I know nothing about this song and I dont seem to hear the title at all. Help!

[MIKEW-UK]

This is usually ascribed to LaBrenda Ben - I Got A Right To Cry

However Motown Junkies believe it not to be the the case and more likely Gloria Jean Williamson

http://motownjunkies.co.uk/artists/b/ben-labrenda/

Apparently Gloria was a member of the Del-Phis, forerunners of Martha and The Vandellas
Cheers

[luke]

Thanks Mike.

[radionixon]

Hello! Steve from Motown Junkies here.

The issue is muddied because the paperwork apparently identifies the vocalist as LaBrenda Ben, but it sounds nothing like her.

[[For people who aren't familiar with LaBrenda's work, I played Lead Me And Guide Me/I've Got A Right To Cry back to back with one of her officially credited tracks on my radio show a couple of weeks ago - make your own mind up:

http://www.mixcloud.com/discoveringmotown/ten/

...jump to the 25 minute mark or so for the segment in question :o)

A visitor to the site came up with Gloria Jean Williamson as an excellent guess, and I think they're right - based on the single the Vandellas cut with her on lead instead of Martha Reeves [[subsequently released under the name "the Vells"), the two voices sound very similar indeed to me! - but however plausible, it's still just a guess and not supported by any actual evidence.

Great track, anyway.

[robb_k]

8046
I was the one who first found the Jobete Music Co. acetate of that song, during the mid 1970s. In 1980, a British friend of mine taped it. Those publisher's acetates are just for proof of ownership and publishing rights for the songs, so, they don't have the singing artist listed. I was working on Motown's [[Natural Resources label) "From The Vaults" project. I thought the artists may have been The Velvelettes. Someone asked me about the song one time, and I said that the singer might be LaBrenda Ben, as a JOKE. That ended up starting a rumour that the singer was LaBrenda. The title of the song, listed on the acetate, was, indeed, "I've Got A Right To Cry". "Lead Me, guide Me" was a total fabrication, used as a cover-up title for its instrumental tracks, to which the cover-up DJs assigned "Holland-Dozier" [[e.g. the producers of The Funk Brothers' instrumental).

Perhaps it is Gloria Williamson [[and The Vells) [[Martha and The Vandellas with Gloria on lead-before she left the group). Or, maybe it is The Velvelettes. We didn't find the master tape, or other information on it.

[keith_hughes]

However ... there is ANOTHER acetate - a National Sound Corporation acetate [[they were on West Warren, Detroit - don't know if any SDF-ers recall this company) - which shows the title as "I've Got A Right To Cry" and the artist as LaBrenda Ben ... it plays "Lead Me And Guide Me" as per the Cellarful track. This acetate was around in the 1980s, maybe earlier, and I don't think it's a fake/bootleg. It's interesting that there's a Jobete acetate too, Robb.

No song called "I've Got A Right To Cry" appears in surviving Motown paperwork; no track by LaBrenda Ben is this song under another title. "Lead Me And Guide Me" is registered, as by artist Holland-Dozier. Only one recording session appears in the logs [[though it's possible the vocal dub-in was made at a later session), and it was mixed to DM, twice [[consecutive tracks on the tape).

The compilers of Cellarful selected this track for audition without having the least premonition it would turn out to be "I've Got A Right To Cry", for which they/we had been searching unsuccessfully for years ...

I see no reason why LaBrenda should not have been capable of singing like Darlene Love if the producers had called on her to do that. I make that suggestion as the Spector sound was gaining a lot of airplay at the time this was recorded, and Eddie has confessed that the team were interested in trying to replicate this style at Motown. [[The Darnells' single was another attempt in the same style.)

I guess they made the acetate for consideration by Quality Control, and when it was rejected, they didn't bother the register the title change, or the re-assignment of the track to LaBrenda Ben.

Gloria Williamson seems to have left Motown by the end of 1962, six months before this track was recorded. And if it had been the Velvelettes, the Boy From Crosstown would long ago have told us!

[144man]

Wouldn't it have been very unusual for Holland-Dozier to have cut only one track with an artist?

[robb_k]

However ... there is ANOTHER acetate - a National Sound Corporation acetate [[they were on West Warren, Detroit - don't know if any SDF-ers recall this company) - which shows the title as "I've Got A Right To Cry" and the artist as LaBrenda Ben ... it plays "Lead Me And Guide Me" as per the Cellarful track. This acetate was around in the 1980s, maybe earlier, and I don't think it's a fake/bootleg. It's interesting that there's a Jobete acetate too, Robb.

8049
Is there any evidence that Motown ever used National Sound Corp. to make their acetates? Maybe the tape made off of my tape was taken in 1980 to National [[Detroit studio) to "legitimise" it [[e.g. first break it out as a "hit" on The Northern Soul Scene, and later sell it for 1000+ Quid as a one-of-a-kind "original")?

[keith_hughes]

Well guessed Robb, I should have done some more research. National Sound Corp at 17610 West Warren was Ron Murphy's store/studio - see http://www.massivemag.com/national-sound-corporation-ron-murphy-issue-20/. I list nine "acetates" on this label in "Don't Forget The Motor City": I must now conclude they are ALL bootlegs, and remove them from future listings. I had no idea he operated on such a scale ...

That certainly re-opens the question of attribution of this track.

[carole cucumber]

Keith,
Now I'm curious.... what are the other eight titles?

[keith_hughes]

Downbeats - You Say You Love Me
Kim Weston - Helpless
Sammy Turner - All I Have Left Are Memories
Velvelettes - Beating Around The Bush
Eddie Holland - Welcome Back
Billy Eckstine - Oh How Happy
Originals - Come Rain Or Shine
Originals - Suspicion

Back in the 90s, a Northern "collector" offered these and many genuine acetates for sale, and I went to his house and viewed them [[and took notes). I didn't buy any - all too pricey for me - and just as well. He subsequently made two CD-Rs of his "acetates" and offered them for sale, and I bought them, for about a tenner each. Not bad quality for those primitive days, though he mis-attributed many of the Jobete acetates which, as Robb pointed out, never had artist names on the labels.

[carole cucumber]

Keith,
Thank you for your quick response.

It seems odd to me that the short version of Kim's "Helpless" and an Original's early 70's recording would have been on acetate. Ah the things we learn here.

[keith_hughes]

We grow wiser, Carole, but sometimes a little sadder too. Kim has been through hard times, financially, in her life, and she could have done without having her recordings bootlegged.

[robb_k]

Downbeats - You Say You Love Me
Kim Weston - Helpless
Sammy Turner - All I Have Left Are Memories
Velvelettes - Beating Around The Bush
Eddie Holland - Welcome Back
Billy Eckstine - Oh How Happy
Originals - Come Rain Or Shine
Originals - Suspicion

Back in the 90s, a Northern "collector" offered these and many genuine acetates for sale, and I went to his house and viewed them [[and took notes). I didn't buy any - all too pricey for me - and just as well. He subsequently made two CD-Rs of his "acetates" and offered them for sale, and I bought them, for about a tenner each. Not bad quality for those primitive days, though he mis-attributed many of the Jobete acetates which, as Robb pointed out, never had artist names on the labels.
8051
ALL of those [[except the Billy Eckstine) probably came from directly off the tapes made from my tape. I'd bet good money that the Sammy Turner [[backed by The Serenaders) was listed as by "The Fascinators". That was the place-holder artist name I used, and my friend erroneously wrote down the names I used [[despite my telling him they weren't likely correct. That is how The Monitors [[Majestics') "Words was listed on The Northern scene for some years as by The Magnetics.

I was a friend of Ron Murphy [[God rest his Soul), and i know he wasn't operating that studio during the 1960s, as he started NSC in 1989. So, any test pressings and acetates of unreleased Motown from the 1960s made there are NOT official Motown products, but are, as Keith stated above, bootlegs made from 2nd generation tapes, for the Northern Soul Scene.

[Roger Polhill]

I have 3 discs from Moonshine which feature the tracks that you mention Robb. "All I Have Left Are Memories" is listed as by the Fascinations and the Fascinators on different discs. Can you tell who are the Versatones and the Precisions. Are the Versatones in fact the Satintones?

[Roger Polhill]

The Precisions wouldn`t be the Serenaders would they?

[robb_k]

I have 3 discs from Moonshine which feature the tracks that you mention Robb. "All I Have Left Are Memories" is listed as by the Fascinations and the Fascinators on different discs. Can you tell who are the Versatones and the Precisions. Are the Versatones in fact the Satintones?
8052
The Versatones are the actual group. Those Tamla cuts from 1963 were produced by Smokey. They were the same Versatones [[local Detroit group) which recorded for Ernest Burt's Magic City Records in Wilbur Golden's old Correc-Tone Sound Studio, at 8912 Grand River in 1966.

"The Precisions" was a cover-up name. Tell me the name of their song, and I'll tell you who recorded it [[unless it is still one of the unknown artist cuts from a Jobete Music acetate for which no master tape nor documentation has been found). Do you think The "Precisions" might be The Serenaders because you hear Timothy Wilson on lead? The only unreleased songs by them that were known in 1980 that I can remember offhand were "Say, Say Baby" and "Tears, Nobody and a Smile"

[Roger Polhill]

Thanks for your reply Robb. The Precisions Tracks are: "You`re Sweet". "Mexican Love Song" and "Tears Nobody And A Smile".The reason that I thought that they could be the Serenaders
was because I had a unreleased listing of an acetate of this song by the group.You mentioned above that some unreleased tracks were retitled on purpose.

[kenneth]

Something like this would be a great subject for "History Detectives."

[robb_k]

Thanks for your reply Robb. The Precisions Tracks are: "You`re Sweet". "Mexican Love Song" and "Tears Nobody And A Smile".The reason that I thought that they could be the Serenaders
was because I had a unreleased listing of an acetate of this song by the group.You mentioned above that some unreleased tracks were retitled on purpose.
8053
"Tears, Nobody and a Smile" was, indeed, The Serenaders. "You're Sweet" and "Mexican Love Song" were The Precisions on Mike Hanks' D-Town Records,

[Roger Polhill]

Many thanks Robb. I really appreciate being able to pick your brains. I just like to clear up the loose ends.
Could you please shed some light on Willie Jones & the Chimes` "I Need You", The Dapps` "Someday" , the Legends` "Tell Me Baby" and Royal Ravens` "Grand Spanish Lady" is it Mahs?

[robb_k]

8057
8056
Willie Jones and The Chimes was a 1962 Detroit production on Harry Balk's Storm Records [[subsidiary of his Twirl Records). He had been a member of Detroit's Royal Jokers/Serenaders/Muskateers. The Chimes were his female backing group. We still don't know their individual names.
8058
The Royal Ravens were a local Detroit group, recording for Mike Hanks, on his MAH's Records in 1963. We don't know their individual names.
8059
The Legends were a local group who appeared at the local clubs, including The Hideout [[about which they sang). They were produced by Joe Hunter and Fred Brown for Mickay's Records [[also owner of a Westside record shop), and, if I remember correctly, they also recorded for Diamond Jim Bradley [[although I don't believe they had a release on his labels [[Riley's, Diamond Jim, or Big "D"). Their Mickay's record came out in late 1965.
8060
Detroit's Dapps were a 1957 to -1963 local Detroit group, who singer and record producer, Johnny Mae Matthews was co-lead singer, manager and producer. They had records released on real estate magnate, George Braxton's Brax Records in 1958, and on Matthews' Northern Records in 1959 and 1960. I think they [[now WITHOUT Johnnie Mae), also had a couple releases on a couple of her subsidiary labels, Reel, Audrey, or Art.
8063
The "New Dapps" were a Funk band from Ohio, led by Alfred "Pee Wee" Ellis, who recorded on King Records in 1968 and 1969, and then became James Brown's backup band, The JB's.

[Roger Polhill]

Robb you are truly wonderful. Thank you so very much for your most valuable information. I apologise to Luke for commandeering the thread. Wow what a forum!

[mowsville]

wow...what an informative thread.

[robb_k]

8064
You should look at The Soulful Detroit Archives under "Classic Threads", there are many historical threads dealing with Motown and Detroit '60s Soul music that have many record scans and discuss the history of the record companies, owners, producers, musicians and artists.

[paul_nixon]

The Motown paperwork as Keith has suggested clearly states that the title of this track is Lead me and Guide me and is attributed to HDH. I don't see how anyone outside of the record company could have fabricated this name when clearly that was what it was called from day one.


8046
I was the one who first found the Jobete Music Co. acetate of that song, during the mid 1970s. In 1980, a British friend of mine taped it. Those publisher's acetates are just for proof of ownership and publishing rights for the songs, so, they don't have the singing artist listed. I was working on Motown's [[Natural Resources label) "From The Vaults" project. I thought the artists may have been The Velvelettes. Someone asked me about the song one time, and I said that the singer might be LaBrenda Ben, as a JOKE. That ended up starting a rumour that the singer was LaBrenda. The title of the song, listed on the acetate, was, indeed, "I've Got A Right To Cry". "Lead Me, guide Me" was a total fabrication, used as a cover-up title for its instrumental tracks, to which the cover-up DJs assigned "Holland-Dozier" [[e.g. the producers of The Funk Brothers' instrumental).

Perhaps it is Gloria Williamson [[and The Vells) [[Martha and The Vandellas with Gloria on lead-before she left the group). Or, maybe it is The Velvelettes. We didn't find the master tape, or other information on it.

[robb_k]

The Motown paperwork as Keith has suggested clearly states that the title of this track is Lead me and Guide me and is attributed to HDH. I don't see how anyone outside of the record company could have fabricated this name when clearly that was what it was called from day one.
8096
THAT'S just it! No doubt "Lead Me, Guide Me" was the correct [[and probably the original) title to the song that went with the mixed background tracks. But, that title makes NO sense AT ALL, being connected with the lyrics of ""I've got A Right To Cry". I contend that, just like the case of Jimmy Ruffin's "In The Neighborhood" and "On The Avenue", and Kim Weston's "A Thrill A Moment" and "Do Like I Do", this mix of backing tracks was used for 2 songs with different lyrics, only, in this case, for different artists, as well. I can think of NO instance of any Motown song title having NO CONNECTION to its lyrics. It just wasn't done! Unfortunately, the documentation connecting the title "I've got A Right To Cry" with that mix of backing tracks only remains on that Jobete music acetate, and not on official paper or a master tape, and the further connection to the actual artist who sang on that acetate also has not been found.