Unsung: Nile Rodgers and Chic

[timmyfunk]

While last nights Unsung didn't tell me anything new, I still thought it was worth watching. Rodgers and Edwards are still one of the greatest songwriting teams of the past 50 years.

[ejluther]

Absolutely worth watching! As for being "unsung" I sure for some Nile Rodgers/Chic don't fit the bill but it's fine with me - to me "unsung" can mean "unrecognized" or it can mean "under appreciated [[critically and/or in popular opinion)" no matter how successful they were at the time [[or still are). Bring on Jean Terrell/The 70's Supremes and any number of acts that need some modern day love...!

[soulballad]

These guys did so much for so many, together and apart. Though not really Unsung, they are certainly not given as much notoriety as they deserve. Perhaps it's because of the Disco genre? Great Show though!

[luke]

I agree. Not much new and something flat about the episode but still enjoyed it. I think the unsung part is the disco backlash stopping their hits. I was surprised Norm Jean and Alfa said the Former Ladies of Chic will sing again as Niles stopped them per the name. Maybe in another form. I talked a bit with Nile's once at a restaurant and he couldnt have been nicer.

[glencro]

In case you missed it, here's the full episode http://tvone.tv/shows/unsung/video/unsung--full-ep--nile-rodgers-and-chic-.html

[soulster]

Thanks Glencro and Timmyfunk! I'll watch this tonight.

[daddyacey]

Any factual documentation is welcome on this subject. It needs to be addressed that the fad of DISCO was wrongly applied to R&B and therefore stigmatized R&B in a certian period of time of its [[evolution). The bassline of Good Times is equally as revolutionary and FUNKY as any that Jamerson or Collins or Graham has played and has influenced the genre. Especially in this time when the BEATLES are celebrating 50 years of "forming the defininition of modern "Rock and Roll" , when in actuallity they were students of Little Richard ,Bo Diddly , Motown etc. There is a bigger picture to consider here , and some of yall know that's true. Shit , don't get me started on the history.

[timmyfunk]

No argument here DA. Chic was a prorgessive Funk band masquerading as a disco band. Plain and simple.

[marv2]

Although I enjoyed the show immensely, I was a bit disappointed that my favorite Lucy Martin was not interviewed. Lucy! Where are you? LOL! Still it was a great program and provided some background information I had not known. Nile Rodgers and Bernard Edwards were AWESOME! They were indeed a progressive Funk Band .You don't create and deliver that type of heavy rhythm by accident! They, Chic were not truly unsung because they were the major creators of a sound of an era.

As with some other episodes of "Unsung", I felt that that this one was just not long enough to delve into all of the great work Rodgers & Edwards produced [[i.e. "Spacer" with Sheila B. Devotion, etc, etc.).

[soulster]

Any factual documentation is welcome on this subject. It needs to be addressed that the fad of DISCO was wrongly applied to R&B and therefore stigmatized R&B in a certian period of time of its [[evolution).Speaking from a U.S. perspective: Disco grew out of R&B, and, certainly, a lot of R&B records were also disco records. However, as the European disco became popular in the U.S., it changed the whole paradigm.


The bassline of Good Times is equally as revolutionary and FUNKY as any that Jamerson or Collins or Graham has played and has influenced the genre. Especially in this time when the BEATLES are celebrating 50 years of "forming the defininition of modern "Rock and Roll" , when in actuallity they were students of Little Richard ,Bo Diddly , Motown etc. There is a bigger picture to consider here , and some of yall know that's true. Shit , don't get me started on the history.

You are 100% correct. But, I don't see anyone disputing any of what you wrote.

No one deny's that Chic has been influential on the rock and hip-hop music worlds. Again, no one disputes this. Also, the Beatles fans know what that band's influences were.

[soulster]

No argument here DA. Chic was a progressive Funk band masquerading as a disco band. Plain and simple. , More accurately, they were originally a rock band who found fame playing disco. Nile & 'Nard have stated that they only used disco to get to rock. Also, what Chic really did was R&B, not disco.

[Jerry Oz]

I remain convinced that a lot of the backlash against disco was very racially motivated. Because as was stated earlier, a lot of R&B was also considered to be "disco", that provided a lot of haters the opportunity to essentially attack a genre that had many black creators at the forefront.

I believe the hate was caused by the fact that disco was a melting pot of creativity and they were going to be dragged kicking and screaming into a world of inclusion. It was the '70s version of the attacks that Nat "King" Cole and the Platters sustained down south because confused crackers considered them to be rock and roll outfits.

And now that I'm off of that soapbox, very seldom have three men been able to generate as much wonderful sound as Chic. Listening to them through a good set of headphones will give you something new every time you do it, even nearly 40 years later.

[soulster]

Jerry, I agree with you about the motivation behind the hate of disco. It was a disguised hatred of Black music, and, therefore, Black culture and people. It was disguised as hatred toward women and gays, too. Disco's natural constituents were those three main groups. Young White males became polarized around guitar rock because the majority of people doing that music was that demographic. It was about identification politics.

People always mention Tony Thompson, Bernard Edwards, and Nile Rodgers. perhaps they were the core of the band, but I would add Raymond Jones, Sammy Figueroa, Andy Schwartz, The Chic Strings, The Chic Horns, and, of course, Alfa Anderson, Norma Jean Wright, Fonzi Thorton, and Luci Martin. All of those people created the Chic sound, and there couldn't have been one without all those those people. I have always said that Chic was bigger than the three principals. That's why they called it The Chic Organization.

[marv2]

Jerry and Soulster are correct! I was in college at the time and I witnessed this phenomena/movement first hand! Soulster you did a very good job in describing the elements of the war on Disco/Black Music that reached it's peak in late 1979.

[Lulu]

I was surprised "I'm Coming Out" wasn't mentioned when they were discussing diana​. I know "Upside Down" was a bigger hit at the time but I think the story behind "I'm Coming Out" and it's longevity should have gotten a nod.

[soulster]

Jerry and Soulster are correct! I was in college at the time and I witnessed this phenomena/movement first hand! Soulster you did a very good job in describing the elements of the war on Disco/Black Music that reached it's peak in late 1979.

I remember back, right around 1975, when some rock bands started getting a little more R&B with their music. A lot of rockers hated them for that, and those bands popularity waned because of it. Led Zeppelin was a good example of that. They lost a lot of respect after "Houses Of The Holy" came out. Robin Trower never became popular again after "Bridge Of Sighs" in the U.S..

[soulster]

I was surprised "I'm Coming Out" wasn't mentioned when they were discussing diana​. I know "Upside Down" was a bigger hit at the time but I think the story behind "I'm Coming Out" and it's longevity should have gotten a nod.

It was an hour doc. There was no way they could fit everything into it. I would have liked for them to talk more about their public decision to move away from disco in 1980.

Let's not turn this into yet another Diana Ross discussion, OK? The duo worked with many artists together and separately. Some were Rod Stewart, Missing Persons, Al Jarreau, and Johnny Mathis. There was Nile's being a member of The Honey Drippers, and, don't forget Bernard Edward's only solo project.

[marv2]

It was an hour doc. There was no way they could fit everything into it. I would have liked for them to talk more about their public decision to move away from disco in 1980.

Let's not turn this into yet another Diana Ross discussion, OK? The duo worked with many artists together and separately. Some were Rod Stewart, Missing Persons, Al Jarreau, and Johnny Mathis. There was Nile's being a member of The Honey Drippers, and, don't forget Bernard Edward's only solo project.

I liked Tony Thompson's work with Robert Palmer and Power Station. It would take several hours to go through all the artists and music members of Chic produced.

[Lulu]

It was an hour doc. There was no way they could fit everything into it. I would have liked for them to talk more about their public decision to move away from disco in 1980.

Let's not turn this into yet another Diana Ross discussion, OK? The duo worked with many artists together and separately. Some were Rod Stewart, Missing Persons, Al Jarreau, and Johnny Mathis. There was Nile's being a member of The Honey Drippers, and, don't forget Bernard Edward's only solo project.

I had ZERO intention of turning this into another Diana Ross thread. I was talking about the significance of the song as the de facto LGBT anthem and hell, there is some kick ass work on that track by Nile [[that intro is arguably among his best work). Plus, the story about the drag queens is pretty damn awesome.

[Lulu]

I had ZERO intention of turning this into another Diana Ross thread. I was talking about the significance of the song as the de facto LGBT anthem and hell, there is some kick ass work on that track by Nile [[that intro is arguably among his best work). Plus, the story about the drag queens is pretty damn awesome.

And, for the record, the instrumentals "Thinking of You" are my absolute favorite CHIC work!!! :o

[stephanie]

Marv! I dont believe this I was furious that we didnt get to hear from Luci as well. I knew it was too good to be true that they didnt go into what happened with our Chic ladies. Im not going to turn this into a I hate Nile thread because I respect him and the Chic organization and what they have done for musical history. However I wonder if Luci and Alfa were under the impression that they were part of the group or just hired hands who sang and whose images were used on album covers and merchandising. I would love to know the story behind that because with his riches I never understood why they couldnt use the name. Always wondered why when they did the 1997 gig and got back together they didnt call Luci and Alfa and even Norma Jean! Oh well I can dream. Agree with you on the Power Station they were a great group.

[soulster]

I had ZERO intention of turning this into another Diana Ross thread. I was talking about the significance of the song as the de facto LGBT anthem and hell, there is some kick ass work on that track by Nile [[that intro is arguably among his best work). Plus, the story about the drag queens is pretty damn awesome.

The song was not originally about LGBTs. It was about Ross changing her musical style. However, Nile does say in his book that Chic had a rule. All songs had to have two meanings. "I'm Coming Out" is the same. One meaning is about Ross's artistic freedom, and the other is about drag queens he saw in the clubs. Just so we are clear, Ross was not happy about the drag queens in her audience at first. That is a fact.

[stephanie]

Soulster is the Nile Rodgers book worth buying? Also does he address the ladies of Chic?
Thanks.

[Lulu]

The song was not originally about LGBTs. It was about Ross changing her musical style. However, Nile does say in his book that Chic had a rule. All songs had to have two meanings. "I'm Coming Out" is the same. One meaning is about Ross's artistic freedom, and the other is about drag queens he saw in the clubs. Just so we are clear, Ross was not happy about the drag queens in her audience at first. That is a fact.

Yes, I know all of this and have read Nile's memoirs. I was simply referring to the long-term impact of the song and I've always gotten a hoot out of the drag queen story which is why it was even more amusing when, years later we got to see Ross alongside many impersonators in the "I Will Survive" video.

All of that aside, I really think diana is among CHIC's best instrumental work. I could listen to some of those intros and outros over and over again. The CHIC production on that album is definitely a highlight in Motown history and I've always wondered how they'd have fared working with other artists on the label!

[soulster]

Soulster is the Nile Rodgers book worth buying? Also does he address the ladies of Chic?
Thanks.

The book is more autobiographical than anything. He doesn't say that much specifically about the women singers. he talks quite a bit about the drugs, partying, sex, and his relationships with various people.

I personally wished he had written more about the recordings, and the making of them.

[soulster]

All of that aside, I really think diana is among CHIC's best instrumental work. I could listen to some of those intros and outros over and over again. The CHIC production on that album is definitely a highlight in Motown history and I've always wondered how they'd have fared working with other artists on the label!

In my opinion, I think the instrumental work they did on the "Take It Off" album is their best. That was one album where they showed off more of their talents. They dove into harder R&B, jazz, and blues.

[timmyfunk]

Speaking from a U.S. perspective: Disco grew out of R&B, and, certainly, a lot of R&B records were also disco records. However, as the European disco became popular in the U.S., it changed the whole paradigm.


You are 100% correct. But, I don't see anyone disputing any of what you wrote.

No one deny's that Chic has been influential on the rock and hip-hop music worlds. Again, no one disputes this. Also, the Beatles fans know what that band's influences were.

Yeah, but a lot of them can sink into the abyss of denial real fast. Really fast....

[timmyfunk]

, More accurately, they were originally a rock band who found fame playing disco. Nile & 'Nard have stated that they only used disco to get to rock. Also, what Chic really did was R&B, not disco.

They may have been a rock band in the beginning, but when Chic started cutting records, that was Funk band that snuck into the disco.

[soulster]

They may have been a rock band in the beginning, but when Chic started cutting records, that was Funk band that snuck into the disco. R&B, funk...it's all good, and really the same thing if you think about it.

[marv2]

Marv! I dont believe this I was furious that we didnt get to hear from Luci as well. I knew it was too good to be true that they didnt go into what happened with our Chic ladies. Im not going to turn this into a I hate Nile thread because I respect him and the Chic organization and what they have done for musical history. However I wonder if Luci and Alfa were under the impression that they were part of the group or just hired hands who sang and whose images were used on album covers and merchandising. I would love to know the story behind that because with his riches I never understood why they couldnt use the name. Always wondered why when they did the 1997 gig and got back together they didnt call Luci and Alfa and even Norma Jean! Oh well I can dream. Agree with you on the Power Station they were a great group.

Steph, I just did not understand Luci not being on the program. She was like an original member and very identifiable with the hitmaking Chic group.

[Jerry Oz]

It's hard to do a documentary without prejudice creeping in from one side or the other. There's a lot of baggage that people collect in relationships that last for years and unfortunately, to get the cooperation of the most important party, you have to marginalize or omit altogether the contributions of another. Remember the vitriol that Jodi Watley displayed against Dick Griffey and Howard Hewitt in the Shalamar episode? It can get in the way of the story and you can't let that happen in a 46 minute broadcast because it's hard enough to cover the highlights, let alone what may be minutiae to the viewer.

[soulster]

Steph, I just did not understand Luci not being on the program. She was like an original member and very identifiable with the hitmaking Chic group. It could be that she declined, or they could not find her.

Anyway, that's the way it is in the record biz. Nile 'n 'Nard had the main contract with Atlantic. They were free to hire whomever they wanted. That's how they were able to tell all the others that their services were no longer needed in 1983. You all may not like it, but that's the way it was. For all that's worth, Tony was also the hired help, as were the keyboardists, pianist, violin players, horns, even the engineer and the assistants...all hired help.. Nile 'n 'Nard were the writers, composers, and producers.

[stephanie]

Soulster thanks for the heads up. I am like you I wanted to read about the music and the recordings I think I will pass. I still think Chic is a great group in the history of disco and music period.

[Jerry Oz]

It could be that she declined, or they could not find her.

Anyway, that's the way it is in the record biz. Nile 'n 'Nard had the main contract with Atlantic. They were free to hire whomever they wanted. That's how they were able to tell all the others that their services were no longer needed in 1983. You all may not like it, but that's the way it was. For all that's worth, Tony was also the hired help, as were the keyboardists, pianist, violin players, horns, even the engineer and the assistants...all hired help.. Nile 'n 'Nard were the writers, composers, and producers.Not too different from Larry Blackmon when he pared Cameo from a 13-member ensemble to four people. One of those new people, Charlie Singleton, wasn't a member of the larger group, so he was the creator and director - essentially, he was Cameo - and decided which direction the band would go. And for the record, even minus the horns, Cameo was still my favorite band, so he was right to do what he did, just as Rodgers and Edwards were.

[soulster]

Well, remember that in the early 80s, because of the backlash against disco, the recession, and the changing music scene, budgets and advances got cut, so bands had to downsize to survive. One-man bands like Prince, Paul McCartney, Ray Parker Jr, and Stevie Wonder didn't help matters. They showed that it could all be done on the cheap.

Cameo was a special case. It helped their sound. They got funkier. I choose 1983 as the point we saw many 11+ piece bands whittled down to the core.

As far as Chic is concerned, the changes started in 1982. The string and horn sections were disappearing. By "Believer", there were no strings at all.

[Jerry Oz]

Groups/bands have to evolve or they'll grow old and stale. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. The two biggest surprises when Cameo whittled itself down were that Aaron Mills - my favorite funk/R&B bassist at the time - was fired from the band and the fact that I liked the record anyway.

I'd like to know what prompted the change for Chic. It's possible that the others were wanting their creative voices heard and put on record and the braintrust wasn't willing to allow that level of collaboration. Personal dynamics in groups are interesting and it doesn't take too much for separate agendas to manifest itself in inferior sounding records.

[soulster]

I'd like to know what prompted the change for Chic. It's possible that the others were wanting their creative voices heard and put on record and the braintrust wasn't willing to allow that level of collaboration. Personal dynamics in groups are interesting and it doesn't take too much for separate agendas to manifest itself in inferior sounding records.

No, it was several factors. The biggest reason is that after the hits quit coming, and their contract ran out, Atlantic decided not to renew it. Nile & Nard were creatively spent in the Chic entity, and wanted to do other things. They also developed creative differences. This is evidenced by the sound of their solo projects.

[Jerry Oz]

That's interesting. I like a lot of Nile Rodgers' solo stuff and his production, but I remember how disappointed I was listening to Bernard Edwards' "Glad to Be Here". Honestly, I listened to it a couple of times and couldn't pick out anything that I wanted to hear again, so it's sitting in my case in nearly new condition.

[soulster]

That's interesting. I like a lot of Nile Rodgers' solo stuff and his production, but I remember how disappointed I was listening to Bernard Edwards' "Glad to Be Here". Honestly, I listened to it a couple of times and couldn't pick out anything that I wanted to hear again, so it's sitting in my case in nearly new condition. Wow! I love "Glad To Be Here", and was disappointed that he didn't do a second album. It did make one thing clear, though, that Nile did the majority of production work with Chic. Edwards always struck me as more of a musician and songwriter than anything else.

[Jerry Oz]

Bernard Edwards had some of the greatest riffs in popular music. The one thing [[besides the ladies' vocals) that defines a Chic song is his bass playing. It was easily as distinctive in its structure as that of Stanley Clarke, Jaco Pastorius, Larry Graham, or anybody that I can think of.

The great bassists are as recognizable as great singers; if somebody sounds like someone else, he's a knockoff and not an innovator or an impresario. And Bernard Edwards' riffs were so clean I have no doubt he was constantly hit up by others for what his effect settings were.

[smark21]

So once they went their separate ways and were producing other artists, what are some of your favorite productions by Nile Rodgers and by Bernard Edwards?

[soulster]

...what are some of your favorite productions by Nile Rodgers and by Bernard Edwards?

As the Chic Organization:
Chic [[of course)
Sister Sledge
Diana Ross

Bernard Edwards:
solo album
The Power Station
Rod Stewart

Nile Rodgers:
second solo album [[B-Movie Matinee)
Sister Sledge
David Bowie
Duran Duran
INXS
Madonna
Al Jarreau
Jeff Beck
Daft Punk

[Jerry Oz]

I'm not a big Grace Jones fan, but Nile Rodgers produced her "Inside Story" LP and I rocked the mess out of that album.

[skooldem1]

Nile and Bernard both had success producing on their own. I know that Nile has had incredible success. Do you think they were better as a unit, or separate?

[marv2]

So once they went their separate ways and were producing other artists, what are some of your favorite productions by Nile Rodgers and by Bernard Edwards?

Nile Rodgers - "Spacer" by Sheila B Devotion. 1980


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aIsqMOMnKw

[marv2]

Check this out y'all..................................


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaXkwWLgpns

[Jerry Oz]

I used to love this song in the '80s. It's kind of pop, but every time I pull this thread up, it's the first thing that comes to mind, even before Chic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3e-qv9jz-OM

[soulster]

As long as we're on the subject: http://www.hdtracks.com/cest-chic-155889?format=AIFF

[Lulu]

I'm not a big Grace Jones fan, but Nile Rodgers produced her "Inside Story" LP and I rocked the mess out of that album.

Yassssss! I totally forgot about that one [[and now, I have to go listen to it!)

[glencro]

Always loved this Bernard Edwards production on Jody Watley
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UG1B8rNwMMM&list=PLE0AE805D372C1677

[soulballad]

Luci and Norma Jean still look and sound great in this performance from 04.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUBSz3jRsnI

[stephanie]

Oh yes this is one of Jodys best performances I like this video of hers. I think Madonna stole some of her moves and fashions.

[juicefree20]

As for Luci, she's quite easy to find, as Norma works with & speaks with her also, Alfa too.

With Norma & Alfa being here on the East Coast & Luci in Florida, it's likely more of a matter of logistics than anything else. I'll ask Luci about this & if it's cool, I'll let you know. However strained things may have been, Luci wouldn't go on the air & speak negatively about Nile.

I'll ask her about it tomorrow.