Live or lipsynch? Gladys Horton and Martha Reeves

[smark21]

I recently watched these clips from the mid 00s of Gladys Horton and Martha Reeves performing on some TV show. To me it sounds like they're miming to a pre-recorded track from the 60s. What do you all think?

Here's Gladys:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDmUVAp0aVQ

[smark21]

And here's Martha Reeves:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMHYvpB20Wc

[phil]

To me it's pure evidence that music and vocals are live.

[supremester]

Well they both LOOK live, but I don't think they are. I don't recall Martha sounding that way in the new millennium, but both sound great on this show. I'm voting lip sync but I'm not an expert on Gladys. They sound to me like live tracks from the 70's or 80's.

[westgrandboulevard]

My opinion, smark21, for what it's worth, is that my ears tell me I would agree with you.

I think it may have previously been denied, but I'd have to say that both Gladys and Martha's vocals are those from their original '60s recordings, which have then been tweaked for the performance.

I would say Gladys and Martha performed the songs for the camera [[possibly not actually to the audience ?) with a live microphone, and I'd say that Martha at least did not mime to a pre-recorded track. I'd also say that Gladys's vocal recorded for the show was later almost totally replaced with the vocal from the original recording. It's possible that the producers just may also have used some or all of the basic rhythm track and background vocals from the original recording of 'Please Mr Postman' to augment the accompaniment we hear , but it could well be that the instrumentation we are hearing is indeed what that audience heard.

Martha's vocal on 'Heat Wave' is from the 60s, I think [[and the background vocals too). I'd say she performed it exactly as she does in her regular shows, but her original recorded vocal was then overdubbed.

Martha was not only often singing above her natural key on her earlier 60s recordings, but her voice has also deepened with the years. The clip does contain a few spoken moments from Martha's performance that the audience actually heard - and the new background vocals can also be heard towards the end. I think there is at least one other song from that PBS show where the vocal is indeed Martha's singing voice at this stage in her career.

While the clips don't completely present the voices of the two much-loved entertainers as they truly were that night, the clips are very skilfully blended and they do present both ladies well, and give them an authentic sound.

All in the business of show, I suppose:)

[jobeterob]

My opinion, smark21, for what it's worth, is that my ears tell me I would agree with you.

I think it may have previously been denied, but I'd have to say that both Gladys and Martha's vocals are those from their original '60s recordings, which have then been tweaked for the performance.

I would say Gladys and Martha performed the songs for the camera [[possibly not actually to the audience ?) with a live microphone, and I'd say that Martha at least did not mime to a pre-recorded track. I'd also say that Gladys's vocal recorded for the show was later almost totally replaced with the vocal from the original recording. It's possible that the producers just may also have used some or all of the basic rhythm track and background vocals from the original recording of 'Please Mr Postman' to augment the accompaniment we hear , but it could well be that the instrumentation we are hearing is indeed what that audience heard.

Martha's vocal on 'Heat Wave' is from the 60s, I think [[and the background vocals too). I'd say she performed it exactly as she does in her regular shows, but her original recorded vocal was then overdubbed.

Martha was not only often singing above her natural key on her earlier 60s recordings, but her voice has also deepened with the years. The clip does contain a few spoken moments from Martha's performance that the audience actually heard - and the new background vocals can also be heard towards the end. I think there is at least one other song from that PBS show where the vocal is indeed Martha's singing voice at this stage in her career.

While the clips don't completely present the voices of the two much-loved entertainers as they truly were that night, the clips are very skilfully blended and they do present both ladies well, and give them an authentic sound.

All in the business of show, I suppose:)

Very tastefully presented; would agree with WestGrand.

[thomas96]

Gladys' are lip-synched, but I think Martha's are live. Both bands are live though.

[kenneth]

I think the Gladys Horton is definitely prerecorded but not that old of a recording to be from the 60s. Gladys' voice hardly changed over the years; if you listen to the "Now!" album, her vocals are almost identical to how she sounded in the 60s. But I think on the specials some of the vocals do get prerecorded as a way to help the groups recapture their earlier sound.

The background vocals are interesting. It sounds like the original backgrounds but more "on key." The Marvelettes were more raw sounding on record...they do sound like they've been sanitized somehow.

Was this from a TJ Lubinsky special? He might share with us what was done, if anything, for Gladys' performance.

I sure miss that lady!

[MotownLover]

I watched this public television Motown special back in 2005 for which TJ Lubinsky was the host. I know that he swore that the guests all sang with live vocals on the set, even though most of us, me included, were rather suspicious of that being the case, as Martha had not sounded this good in a very long time. I believe some type of voice enhancements were applied to make both Gladys and Martha sound better than they would have otherwise. I know there is such equipment, as I've heard the differences when vocalists use plain microphones vs. those that have the ability to make the sound coming out to the listeners to be much more controlled with perfect pitch. Today, with the right amount of money, anyone can be made to sound like a much better singer than they really are. Lubinsky swore that nothing had been done out of the ordinary. My ears tell me otherwise.

[thomas96]

But can that technology be applied live? Obviously it can be on recordings but I'd be absolutely shocked if they could do that in real time, live.

[jobeterob]

Well, that simply was not Martha Reeves singing live, totally by herself and sounding like that in 2005. Her voice was lost by the mid 90's at latest and she has never sounded like this in years. A good lady but reality has set in unkindly.

I remember this was discussed years ago because there was some question about why Gladys Horton was not shown up close.

Also, those women behind Martha sound way too much like the Vandellas sound on the 45 to not have somehow been augmented by the real sound.

I'm sure all these people "sang along with Mitch" and performed live but there is a lot more to what we are watching than a simple performance by them only.

[Roberta75]

Miss Martha Reeves didnt lipsync and her voice is not lost jobeterob the First Lady pf Motown sounds as good to day as she did back in the 60s and 70s and 80s.

Thank you.

Roberta

[thisoldheart]

i think martha reeves was one of motown's best singers, but, unfortunately her voice has changed the most of the performers still singing, and not for the better.

[westgrandboulevard]

Yes, Martha's singing voice has certainly changed. With the years, her tone has become warmer, richer.... but there are some aspects of vocal control which do vary between performances, and aren't always presented to best effect on internet clips. She is well aware of it, and just making the best of 'today'.

I must say I'd be really interested in hearing her tackle some new arrangements of her old hits, bringing down the key - even trying a combination of sing/speak at least on some songs [[I'm thinking of Della Reese - who could rock with one song, and then sing like a bird on another, and sometimes both!) instead of doing her best to reproduce the 'old' sound from the 60s.

When I look in my [[own!) mirror, I don't see myself as I once was [[and I wish!), so I don't expect Martha's singing voice to be as it once was.

Sadly, Gladys has gone, so I'm just glad Martha is still here. I appreciate her for what she HAS, not for what she may have lost.

Martha is still a great stage entertainer in the Motown tradition. She has a large song repertoire from decades of experience, and a wealth of anecdotes. Still loves her work, and has great rhythm and stage presence - and interestingly, still impresses younger people, who maybe welcome her with different ears and eyes from the old-time Motowners like ourselves? :)

[tjl]

Martha and our background ladies are 100% live. Our ladies then doubled their background parts in the studio - and Martha even joined in to help our singers to get a blend that closely matched the original. Ms. Reeves has quite a range, we did several days of rehearsals and recordings, you are hearing 100% of her live voice at the time of recording the show - because unlike most other tv show producers, we spent our time that normally goes into camera blocking - on audio production, audio pre-production and audio post production.

The only major change is that we did drop the keys on the tunes for the live show to allow Martha to sing [[with later high end eq) in what sounds like a younger voice and style. I worked with Martha in the studio for a few days before the show to practice against the tv click tracks.

The goal for me was to try and get as close to the record as possible. We approached it the same way as we did for Ronnie Spector and La La Brooks when trying to re-create "The Wall Of Sound". I think we've always been very upfront about our approach to making audio the first in our shows - it's not a secret, we approach it like any other sound recording first - audio takes priority over video and that's what gives Ms. Reeves a very different performance for this show - it is 100% her today, with subtle shifts and emphasis that are probably not practical for live gigs or normal tv recordings that don't bother to spend their time "directing" vocal performance. Ms. Reeves most certainly can sing, her talents are amazing.

To give her our best, we had the orchestra and band[[s) play live in much lower keys, that was about it. Not because Martha needed the keys lowered, but to make it easier to put the space back in, that's normally sped up by a live appearance - or because live shows don't have the kind of back-up musicians we had [[3 live, 3 studio orchestras) for the final tv mix. Everything was disected and replicated as closely as possible over a period of about 18-months with the show.

In working with Ms. Reeves, she could not have been more giving and professional, as we all wanted to make it right and approached the tv show more like recording a record session. As the music tracks we recorded were locked to time - it meant we had plenty of time together to bring back the phrasing and style of how she sang on the recordings. Martha didn't have to have a tambourine herself, since we had many musicians covering those parts, which meant she could fall back to normal breathing and not worry about expending all her energies with her staging. In other words, for me and all that worked with us on that show - - it was about TLC vs what most tv producers do which is to spend more time on sets and lighting, and not very much time in musical rehearsals with the artist.

I remember when we first worked on practicing "Heatwave" - she was so funny, saying "oh you want me to sing it like I'm 16 and chewing bubble gum, I can do that TJ - - and SHE DID, acapella - - but first Lubinsky, we'll first I need to get these background ladies to know their "whooooo" parts on Jimmy Mack!". It was one of the greatest experiences I've ever had with a performer, because we spent many days together building the best, and that takes a lot of pressure off during the live recording phase. I can tell you Ms. Reeves is still an incredible vocal talent, but without the backup of such a huge orchestra and so much practice time as we had to change up the approach - - I'm not sure it's possible for any performer to replicate that sound live. We didn't have to speed up the pace for our show - by design we wanted the clicks to match the original record timing.

Think of it this way, it's like hearing the Four Tops or Imperials alone live without the Andantes or other high soprano voices live. They put on a great show - but it's not the same sound of the record without having the girls in the mix. Louvainne and Pat were sensational rejoining the Tops for that show. That's what gave us that feel of the records for the group.

Sadly with Ms. Horton, due to her own personal schedule we did not have the same time to practice, so her songs are taken from multiple takes we did live and at camera rehearsals earlier that day. As for the issue of her close-up - - I've avoided saying this publicly while she was still with us on Earth, but perhaps enough time has passed that I can offer some more explanation.

You didn't see a close-up because of a medical issue with her left eye. Gladys was very concerned about it as filming her up close in any way would not have shown her in her most beautiful light in millions and millions of homes across the country. We tried an alternate take with a matching eye patch, but that brought even more attention to the issue once we saw it on camera. Of course we wanted to show her close up. Due to her health situation, doing so would have been anything but respectful to the artists sensativities.

We didn't want to do anything that might actually make someone think twice about hiring her or going to see her for a live appearance for fear of a health issue. I don't know if it was a temporary or developing problem, but I do that day - - it would have been reckless to show her infirmed.

So the cameras we're moved to avoid any possibility of drawing attention to her ailment. With Ms. Horton's full consultation, we talked it through together and agreed not to show her tight shot to protect her image, not deny her.

My goal, was to get her name out there and let people know the great singer that Ms. Horton was, the maker of so many memories in our lives was still very much alive at that point - - even though she could not use the name Marvelettes, this was the wrong we were trying to right. As I've said in the past on this topic, loving someone sometimes means having to make tough choices.

[westgrandboulevard]

TJ....your post embodies everything great about this Forum, and about the music.

If there was a compilation of Greatest Hits of posts on this forum, your above post would surely be included.

It also speaks volumes about yourself, and is an absolute pleasure to read.

Very many thanks:D

[thisoldheart]

i am not falling for this "live" b.s. nobody in the 2000's sounds like they did in 1965! and studio tracks are very different from seeing someone live. although reeves' voice has suffered in the past 40 years i would much rather hear her real voice than some android voice fixed up by trickery. reeves has nothing to be ashamed of. we all get old. there is no crime in getting old. there is a crime in trying to fool people into thinking a person can sound the same at 20 as they do at near70!

[BigAl]

Many years ago, Gladys developed a pronounced squint in one eye. I don't know if this was the result of a stroke, or perhaps Bell's palsy which often results from a facial injury. Regardless of its cause I was aware of the reason for there being no close-ups. It's too bad that a camera could not be placed to her "good" side and then managed to get close-ups in profile, but I imagine there are technical limitations to consider.

[tjl]

For television, even as far back as shows like Ed Sullivan, and many of the Motown specials on many networks, elements of artists and groups most often include pre-record parts of tracks, backing vocals and other elements present on a recording, but not possible to duplicate live - if for nothing else than stage monitoring reasons [[how the artists hear themselves in a giant hall with wedges), the show was made before ear monitors were popular and widely available to us. Post production sweetening is very commonplace for television, the same as mixing any recording. But Ms. Reeves vocal was her voice recorded live in 2005, and very clearly beuatifully matured and controlled.

Other shows have other approaches - the goal of this show was not a live concert [[like the CBS special around the same time). It was very clearly explained during the presentation the steps that were taken to re-create the sound process of how the original recordings were made, step by step. We even showed footage of the musicians laying down layered parts of tracks on tv. The program's first basic sessions rhythm tracks were laid down in November 2004 - nearly a decade ago. Then in 2005, some basic horns and strings sessions followed by additional backing vocals and additional percussion, [[shakers, chains, wood planks, etc). Most live performances and live bands and horns/strings thickened, live vocals were recorded in 2005, and some, but not all were released in 2006. This was a recording session made for tv - not a presentation of a "live" concert event taking place.

I do hear ya Al, but when an artist specifically requests "no close-up" I follow their direction. Ms. Horton expressed specifically, I don't want any close ups, so no we wouldn't have had another angle per her request.

[kenneth]

Thanks for the full and heartfelt post, Mr. Lubinsky. It's wonderful to be able to share some of this insight into the process you went through to prepare these performers for what for many would be their greatest exposure in quite some time. I think it's wonderful that Gladys was able to sing the way she did so many years later. The best thing about the Ian Levine recordings, in spite of the pedestrian material and lackluster arrangements, was that Gladys' voice was remarkably unchanged from years ago and there was no mistaking who she was then and now!

Thanks again, and keep doing what you do!

[smark21]

To my eyes and ears, it seems like they did sing live at the taping, but in post production vocal tracks from the 60s Motown recordings were used and mixed in with the live band performance. Here and there you can hear a word or two from the taping that night, but to me It sounds like vocal tracks from 60s Motown were used. If Martha was coached to rerecord her vocals in post-production to sound like she did in the 60s, I wonder how come she didn't use some of those techniques she used for those sessions in live concerts going forward to have some of that sound?

[Roberta75]

To my eyes and ears, it seems like they did sing live at the taping, but in post production vocal tracks from the 60s Motown recordings were used and mixed in with the live band performance. Here and there you can hear a word or two from the taping that night, but to me It sounds like vocal tracks from 60s Motown were used. If Martha was coached to rerecord her vocals in post-production to sound like she did in the 60s, I wonder how come she didn't use some of those techniques she used for those sessions in live concerts going forward to have some of that sound?

The first Lady of Motown Records Dr Martha Reeves doesnt need coaching on her vocals. Martha sound as good today as she did 40 years ago and she has a vocal range and shes got a stage presense like no other. Shes a better performer and put on a better live show than Diane Ross and Smokey Robinson and Lionel Ritchie and Stevie Wonder and yes they all Motown Superstars but non can touch Dr Martha Reeves on stage.

Roberta

[tjl]

Ms. Reeves was not coached in post-production. We practiced to different tv timing click tracks in pre-production. She perfromed live and sang live at the show in her own voice. The timing and the musical keys were different - which allowed her to use her amazing talents in a different way, as the performance was locked into a slower time, with a lower key. That's what you're hearing on the tv mix as it was made as a recording session - vs live capturing of a tv show. The EQ of her voice was matched to sound like the record vs a live eq that anyone in attendance would have heard.

I can tell you without a doubt her talents were awesome and amazing, her voice just as strong as most any of the hundreds of performers we recorded for those shows made over 10 years ago.

[MotownLover]

TJ....your post embodies everything great about this Forum, and about the music.

If there was a compilation of Greatest Hits of posts on this forum, your above post would surely be included.

It also speaks volumes about yourself, and is an absolute pleasure to read.

Very many thanks:D

I want to second what westgrandboulevard stated. I really appreciate the time and effort you put into the explanation, TJ, to clear up what many of us expressed or assumed. You're a gentleman, and I know that you have a passion for the music of our youth, and Motown in particular. Now I understand what it was we saw back in 2005. All I can say is that we'd love more, more, more shows similar to this in the future. Such great quality cannot be denied.

[jobeterob]

I thought the clips were great and wish I'd seen the whole show or could see it now. Is there a DVD or something?

I want the world of today to see how it was and how good it was from two of Motown's stars that did not make it as big of some of the others but are very loved by their fans and were very good in their day. Many of the PBS shows do this and do it very well. I don't really care what they have to do to make it that good ~ just "make it good" and "keep it that way".

I would much rather see any Motown star in this form of clip than see them as Ms. Reeves was shown on that Superbowl clip from the mid 90's. That didn't do Motown or Martha Reeves any favors.

[kenneth]

I thought the clips were great and wish I'd seen the whole show or could see it now. Is there a DVD or something?

It was a "My Music: Motown" special, in the series of music specials that TJ Lubinsky produces. I believe there was a box set of Motown songs that came out at the same time.

There are DVDs available, and often offered during the shows based on viewers' contributions to PBS. I'm sure you could find the DVDs in Amazon or EBAY. I found one in Amazon.CA for only $19.99 Canadian.

http://www.amazon.ca/Various-2005-Motown-Early-Year/dp/B000LPR6EC/ref=sr_1_1?s=dvd&ie=UTF8&qid=1390279808&sr=1-1&keywords=motown+tj+lubinsky

[jobeterob]

It was a "My Music: Motown" special, in the series of music specials that TJ Lubinsky produces. I believe there was a box set of Motown songs that came out at the same time.

There are DVDs available, and often offered during the shows based on viewers' contributions to PBS. I'm sure you could find the DVDs in Amazon or EBAY. I found one in Amazon.CA for only $19.99 Canadian.

http://www.amazon.ca/Various-2005-Motown-Early-Year/dp/B000LPR6EC/ref=sr_1_1?s=dvd&ie=UTF8&qid=1390279808&sr=1-1&keywords=motown+tj+lubinsky

Thanks Kenneth; that's the one I've got and I thought it was very good. It is not just your run of the mill compilation ~ I was pleased with that one.

[kenneth]

Thanks Kenneth; that's the one I've got and I thought it was very good. It is not just your run of the mill compilation ~ I was pleased with that one.

So it doesn't include Gladys' performance then? I wonder if it's different than the DVDs they promote during the pledge breaks on PBS.

[thanxal]

What an amazing amount of work went into this. I must say, my first reaction was that this was lip-synced because I compared it to other live performances at that time.

Ms. Reeves is truly an amazing artist, as was Ms. Horton. I am so glad to have read the explanation by Mr. Lubinsky. It is real evidence of the dedication and talent of not only the singers but of the production staff, the latter of which don't get enough love for what they do - IMHO.

[jobeterob]

The kind of production we see here is what we want to see from these artists and all the artists of that era. Unfortunately, it is not possible most of the time and these days, most often we get those less than kind videos that flood Youtube.

[marybrewster]

Thank you for sharing your stories, tjl.

It only proves that class still exsists.

[luke]

Thanks TJL for all your info and dedicatiton. Why was Postman speeded up so much?

[carole cucumber]

So it doesn't include Gladys' performance then? I wonder if it's different than the DVDs they promote during the pledge breaks on PBS.Kenneth,The show first aired on PBS during a pledge drive period. At the first level of support, one would receive the dvd [[containing the actual broadcast + bonus performances filmed for but not included in the broadcast); at the second level, the cd box set [[which featured several different tracks on Disc 4 when compared with the general release); and at the third level, both the dvd & cd box set.At a later date, a considerably pared down version of the dvd was offered to the general public. Obviously some who watched the broadcast & wanted a copy of the broadcast either were unable to/chose not to pledge at the minimum level. Perhaps some of them theorized that a dvd of the entire broadcast would be offered to the public at a later date at a much cheaper rate.

[jobeterob]

I think mine is just a package of CDs that I happened across in a small store in Jasper Alberta; but as I recall, its a rare collection and I remember thinking it was a REALLY good road trip when I landed that set. I am going to look tonight.

[carole cucumber]

Rob, From your description, I suspect you may have the 'Motown Big Hits & More' set [[Treasury Collection) from 2012 and not the 'Motown Box' [[Shout Factory) from 2005.

[jobeterob]

Rob, From your description, I suspect you may have the 'Motown Big Hits & More' set [[Treasury Collection) from 2012 and not the 'Motown Box' [[Shout Factory) from 2005.

I have the Motown Box from 2005 produced by TJ Lubinsky for TJL Productions and Harry Weinger for Universal Music and Richard and Garson Foos for Shout! Factory.

I have 4 CDS, named Baby I Need Your Loving, Dancing in the Streets, Reflections and B Sides and Rare Stuff ~ lots of each CD marked extended stereo mix [[like 36 cuts), alternate lead vocal stereo mix [[Since I Lost My Baby), Like A Nightmare [[first time stereo mix).

Is that what everyone has?

Anyways, I'll play it right now; it's been a long time. Thanks for the reminder of it.

[westgrandboulevard]

That's certainly the one I have, [[mine is the general release version), and which I enjoy very much. One of my most favourite box sets.

The extended stereo mixes come up sounding very fresh.

[LuvHangOva]

My attention is always drawn to the ladies backing Miss Reeves. I enjoy their sassy but tasteful full bodied " jiggle fest " u can tell they're enjoying.it too. HIT IT GIRLS!!

[kenneth]

Kenneth,The show first aired on PBS during a pledge drive period. At the first level of support, one would receive the dvd [[containing the actual broadcast + bonus performances filmed for but not included in the broadcast); at the second level, the cd box set [[which featured several different tracks on Disc 4 when compared with the general release); and at the third level, both the dvd & cd box set.At a later date, a considerably pared down version of the dvd was offered to the general public. Obviously some who watched the broadcast & wanted a copy of the broadcast either were unable to/chose not to pledge at the minimum level. Perhaps some of them theorized that a dvd of the entire broadcast would be offered to the public at a later date at a much cheaper rate.

Thanks Carole. That original DVD with bonus material would very much be worth having. I'll have to watch and see if the offer is repeated, as they often are, when the special is repeated. The "My Music" specials tend to repeat a lot here in Southern California.