Jules Podell and Flo Ballard

[marybrewster]

It's been said that in 1966 [[?) / 1967 [[?) Berry Gordy wanted to present the Supremes at the Copacabana sans Flo Ballard. Not sure if this means Marlene Barrow would have stepped in? The story goes that Jules Podell said NO. This tells me that Podell was a man that got exactly what he wanted. He sure made Mr. Gordy listen.

So my question is: was Podell a Flo Ballard fan? If so, why didn't he have her appear at his Copa in 1968 after Flo starting releasing solo material? You could say that Berry might have "blacklisted" the Copa from his artists for future engagements, but wasn't the Copa THE place to be? Berry wouldn't have been THAT foolish? Certainly Podell had what it took to stand up to Berry.....and Berry listened.

[antceleb12]

From what I have read, I believe it's that Mr. Podell believed that having the three original Supremes would attract a biiger crowd, and that by having a replacement, fans would notice and would be less likely to purchase a ticket. I don
t know how much of it had to do with personal interest in Flo as much as it was about business.

[BayouMotownMan]

Podell was fond of Flo, she was a crowd pleaser with her comic jabs.

As far as Flo performing there, I don't think Flo put a whole show together. She only had two releases and both failed. Podell likely had no way of knowing where Flo was or how to reach her. Most of America didn't know. Motown press releases varied from saying she wanted to stop performing to opening an antique shop.

[Roberta75]

Podell was fond of Flo, she was a crowd pleaser with her comic jabs.

As far as Flo performing there, I don't think Flo put a whole show together. She only had two releases and both failed. Podell likely had no way of knowing where Flo was or how to reach her. Most of America didn't know. Motown press releases varied from saying she wanted to stop performing to opening an antique shop.


It seem that that poor Florence lacked the drive and ambition it take to be and stay a star imo.

Roberta

[reese]

In the Ribowsky book on the Supremes, their manager Shelly Berger said that the story about Podell insisting that Flo appear was not true.

In a REACH OUT! newlsetter interview, I believe Cholly Atkins said that he helped put together an act for Flo once she became a solo performer. The opening number was HEY LOOK ME OVER. The only place I've heard that she did an engagement was at the Wonder Garden in Atlantic City.

[BayouMotownMan]

She was an opening act so likely the show was only about 30 min

[antceleb12]

I posted this a while back, but maybe someone has some idea where it might be from. It appears to be a solo gig from 1968 or 1969.

7508

[reese]

I also read [[somewhere) that there was a spot opening for Wilson Pickett.

[antceleb12]

I believe she also performed at Nixon's inauguration ball.

There was also a parade in Chicago with Godfrey Cambridge, an appearance with Bill Cosby, several magazine appearances. It seems Flo was so close, but missed the boat...

[Roberta75]

I believe she also performed at Nixon's inauguration ball.

All I can say is Florence must have needed the work real bad to perform at that mans ball.

I hope she got paid good.

Roberta

[supremester]

I don't really believe that story. I'm sure he loved Flo - who didn't? Give Berry an ultimatum about a top draw at The Copa? I doubt it. First, The Supremes were always SRO at that place - no one would know until the got there so how could it hurt business? Second, the next engagement and all future engagements didn't have Flo anyway, so much for that theory. I just don't buy it - like the Hello Dolly story - it sounds good until you think about it and really it doesn't hold water. I would have killed to see her act. I would be attending all of her shows if she was still Flo sassing audiences. Can you imagine RTL with DMF???????????

[antceleb12]

I don't really believe that story. I'm sure he loved Flo - who didn't? Give Berry an ultimatum about a top draw at The Copa? I doubt it. First, The Supremes were always SRO at that place - no one would know until the got there so how could it hurt business? Second, the next engagement and all future engagements didn't have Flo anyway, so much for that theory. I just don't buy it - like the Hello Dolly story - it sounds good until you think about it and really it doesn't hold water. I would have killed to see her act. I would be attending all of her shows if she was still Flo sassing audiences. Can you imagine RTL with DMF???????????

Don't shoot the messenger, just repeating what I've read...

[supremester]

I'm not shooting you - did it seem that way? I'm sorry if it did, I'm just discussing

[Roberta75]

I just google Jules Podell and he pass in 1973 so we will never really know what conversation went on between Mr Gordy and Mr Podell.

Roberta

[marv2]

It's been said that in 1966 [[?) / 1967 [[?) Berry Gordy wanted to present the Supremes at the Copacabana sans Flo Ballard. Not sure if this means Marlene Barrow would have stepped in? The story goes that Jules Podell said NO. This tells me that Podell was a man that got exactly what he wanted. He sure made Mr. Gordy listen.

So my question is: was Podell a Flo Ballard fan? If so, why didn't he have her appear at his Copa in 1968 after Flo starting releasing solo material? You could say that Berry might have "blacklisted" the Copa from his artists for future engagements, but wasn't the Copa THE place to be? Berry wouldn't have been THAT foolish? Certainly Podell had what it took to stand up to Berry.....and Berry listened.

You are kidding right? Jules Podell was mobbed up to the hilt! Flo was a standout onstage and audiences loved her.......including Mr. Podell.

[marv2]

I don't really believe that story. I'm sure he loved Flo - who didn't? Give Berry an ultimatum about a top draw at The Copa? I doubt it. First, The Supremes were always SRO at that place - no one would know until the got there so how could it hurt business? Second, the next engagement and all future engagements didn't have Flo anyway, so much for that theory. I just don't buy it - like the Hello Dolly story - it sounds good until you think about it and really it doesn't hold water. I would have killed to see her act. I would be attending all of her shows if she was still Flo sassing audiences. Can you imagine RTL with DMF???????????

The story [[about Jules Podell insisting on having Florence Ballard in the group) is true! Shelly Berger is full of shit!

Yes he/they gave Berry an ultimatum. If you want to play in the big time, you play by the rules........their rules! [[I'm not going much further than this because it is not that important to educate you here.....).

Yes it did matter who was in the Supremes! You saw what happened with Diane's "Return to LOOOOOVE" tour!

The story that never held water with me is the one Motown, Berry, Diane, Smokey etc always told about changing groups names to feature the lead singer allowing them to ask for and get more money for the same act with the same members! That shit never made sense or sounded to true to me from the first time I heard that explanation.

[floyjoy678]

Shelly Berger isn't full of shit, Mark Ribowsky is full of shit. Florence and Mary, especially Florence, were still quite popular with the audiences and fans in 1966. After Diana, Florence was the most popular Supreme. And yes it is well known that Podell had mafia connections. Either way Florence was back and Marlene was gone, also it's been suggested that Diana wanted Florence back because she performed better with Florence's voice underneath hers.

[smark21]

According to wiki, Jules Podell was installed as manager of the Copa in 1940 to front for Frank Costello a major mafia chieftain, but by 1950, Podell was no longer a front, but truly managing the place. But mob connected, no doubt. A few years ago, Podell’s daughter published a book about The Copa.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Copa-Podell-Hottest-Havana/dp/0061240990/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1384298995&sr=8-1&keywords=Podell+Copacabana

[marv2]

Shelly Berger isn't full of shit, Mark Ribowsky is full of shit. Florence and Mary, especially Florence, were still quite popular with the audiences and fans in 1966. After Diana, Florence was the most popular Supreme. And yes it is well known that Podell had mafia connections. Either way Florence was back and Marlene was gone, also it's been suggested that Diana wanted Florence back because she performed better with Florence's voice underneath hers.

Shelly Berger is full of shit, ok? I don't know who Ribowsky is other than he wrote a few books. I know who Shelly is and the kinds of things he says and has said about certain people he did not like.......

Furthermore, Jules Podell had a point which Berry Gordy came to understand later which is why they started having Cindy Birdsong attempt to deliver some of Florence's "spontaneous" stage patter. Those quips only worked for Florence.

[jobeterob]

Shelly Berger is full of shit, ok? I don't know who Ribowsky is other than he wrote a few books. I know who Shelly is and the kinds of things he says and has said about certain people he did not like.......

Furthermore, Jules Podell had a point which Berry Gordy came to understand later which is why they started having Cindy Birdsong attempt to deliver some of Florence's "spontaneous" stage patter. Those quips only worked for Florence.

And this is somehow different from you Marv?

[marv2]

And this is somehow different from you Marv?

Shouldn't you be somewhere collecting defense fund money for that cadet that got his ass beat fooling around with Patti and them?

[antceleb12]

Either way Florence was back and Marlene was gone, also it's been suggested that Diana wanted Florence back because she performed better with Florence's voice underneath hers.

That's interesting. I didn't know that. Just shows that Mary and Florence were very valuable assets to everyone involved.

[marv2]

That's interesting. I didn't know that. Just shows that Mary and Florence were very valuable assets to everyone involved.

This is true. There would not have been a Supremes group without them!

[milven]

This is true. There would not have been a Supremes group without them!
That is true. Without them, there would be no Supremes. But if there were no Supremes, would Diana Ross , Florence Ballad and Mary Wilson have been able to launch successful solo careers?

[antceleb12]

That is true. Without them, there would be no Supremes. But if there were no Supremes, would Diana Ross , Florence Ballad and Mary Wilson have been able to launch successful solo careers?

Intriguing. Gordy was able to get Diana from not singing in that high, nasally tone pre-WDOLG. However, she was also extremely self-motivated and determined. So I think she would have found fame in some way or another [[possibly in fashion).

Florence and Mary were also extremely dedicated [[otherwise none of those girls would have been signed to Motown), but to what extent they would have achieved stardom isn't quite as obvious.

[marv2]

Intriguing. Gordy was able to get Diana from not singing in that high, nasally tone pre-WDOLG. However, she was also extremely self-motivated and determined. So I think she would have found fame in some way or another [[possibly in fashion).

Florence and Mary were also extremely dedicated [[otherwise none of those girls would have been signed to Motown), but to what extent they would have achieved stardom isn't quite as obvious.

I am confident Mary Wilson would have been famous judging by what she has achieved on her own without a large recording company backing her. She's had a pretty diversified and rewarding career since leaving the Supremes in 1977. If you knew all the things she's done and accomplished in the years since you will see she is also a highly motivated and determined individual.

[jobeterob]

I am confident Mary Wilson would have been famous judging by what she has achieved on her own without a large recording company backing her. She's had a pretty diversified and rewarding career since leaving the Supremes in 1977. If you knew all the things she's done and accomplished in the years since you will see she is also a highly motivated and determined individual.

Now this I agree with. She has done diversified and rewarding thing and in the last 20 years has been highly motivated and determined. She just wasn't very successful, particularly when compared to Ross, Franklin, Carey, Beyoncé, Oprah, Madonna et al.

[supremester]

Gil told me Berry wanted Flo gone for quite a while. They were all tired of the tardiness and Berry felt getting rid of Flo would solve a lot of problems and get Mary to be on time as well. He said Diana and Mary wanted Flo to stay and ignored Berry's comments and threats on the subject. As things grew worse, Gil stepped in but to no avail. He was there the first night Flo was a last minute no show. He never said she was drunk, btw [[but I think he preferred not to make that an issue) . He did say that everyone was on edge waiting for her and when it was announced they would go on without her, he went to the girl's dressing room. There he saw Diana, fully made up in costume, slunk down on a chair against the wall sobbing. He said she looked so small - that her eye makeup and stage attire were bigger than she was. "Just skin and bones sticking out of a dress. No human form. It struck how this little nothing could be the reason everyone is here." He felt like crying himself. He went over to her and bent down and hugged her. She asked through her tears, lost, "what are we gonna do?" and he assured her "we'll be fine." He said she was exhausted, had no idea how they could do a show as a duet and was scared for Flo. The group ended that night and they knew nothing could stop the inevitable change now. I think he said Mary was crying as well. He got up and quietly but assuredly told them what to do. In 5 minutes they were conversing and in 10, Diana was talking out loud about how they'd do this and that. That this wasn't going to be so bad. Mary joined in and they got ready and went on just a few minutes after start time. They were great. He was so proud of them. They did what they had to do and made it work in the round. Afterwards, they were sad, angry and spent. I think they were a duo again the next night - then Marlene came in. He was surprised Flo was given another chance and speculated that Diana had something to do with it because Gordy wasn't having it. Oh, he praised their singing and Mary adjusting her voice to make "a complete sound with Diane." I never asked him what a complete sound was. It happened again a while later and Flo was suspended. I wonder how marlene was paid - did she get Flo money? was Flo paid? He also mentioned that both Diana & Mary were angry at Flo but still looved her and it was very tough. He always referred to Miss Ross as Diana and always referred to Flo as Florence. He was firm in that Flo's drinking was not the issue - he said she just simply couldn't keep up.
Shelly Berger isn't full of shit, Mark Ribowsky is full of shit. Florence and Mary, especially Florence, were still quite popular with the audiences and fans in 1966. After Diana, Florence was the most popular Supreme. And yes it is well known that Podell had mafia connections. Either way Florence was back and Marlene was gone, also it's been suggested that Diana wanted Florence back because she performed better with Florence's voice underneath hers.

[antceleb12]

I am confident Mary Wilson would have been famous judging by what she has achieved on her own without a large recording company backing her. She's had a pretty diversified and rewarding career since leaving the Supremes in 1977. If you knew all the things she's done and accomplished in the years since you will see she is also a highly motivated and determined individual.

I never said she wasn't. I just said that I didn't know what kind of fame she [[or Flo and Diana) would have found without Motown.

[Roberta75]

Gil told me Berry wanted Flo gone for quite a while. They were all tired of the tardiness and Berry felt getting rid of Flo would solve a lot of problems and get Mary to be on time as well. He said Diana and Mary wanted Flo to stay and ignored Berry's comments and threats on the subject. As things grew worse, Gil stepped in but to no avail. He was there the first night Flo was a last minute no show. He never said she was drunk, btw [[but I think he preferred not to make that an issue) . He did say that everyone was on edge waiting for her and when it was announced they would go on without her, he went to the girl's dressing room. There he saw Diana, fully made up in costume, slunk down on a chair against the wall sobbing. He said she looked so small - that her eye makeup and stage attire were bigger than she was. "Just skin and bones sticking out of a dress. No human form. It struck how this little nothing could be the reason everyone is here." He felt like crying himself. He went over to her and bent down and hugged her. She asked through her tears, lost, "what are we gonna do?" and he assured her "we'll be fine." He said she was exhausted, had no idea how they could do a show as a duet and was scared for Flo. The group ended that night and they knew nothing could stop the inevitable change now. I think he said Mary was crying as well. He got up and quietly but assuredly told them what to do. In 5 minutes they were conversing and in 10, Diana was talking out loud about how they'd do this and that. That this wasn't going to be so bad. Mary joined in and they got ready and went on just a few minutes after start time. They were great. He was so proud of them. They did what they had to do and made it work in the round. Afterwards, they were sad, angry and spent. I think they were a duo again the next night - then Marlene came in. He was surprised Flo was given another chance and speculated that Diana had something to do with it because Gordy wasn't having it. Oh, he praised their singing and Mary adjusting her voice to make "a complete sound with Diane." I never asked him what a complete sound was. It happened again a while later and Flo was suspended. I wonder how marlene was paid - did she get Flo money? was Flo paid? He also mentioned that both Diana & Mary were angry at Flo but still looved her and it was very tough. He always referred to Miss Ross as Diana and always referred to Flo as Florence. He was firm in that Flo's drinking was not the issue - he said she just simply couldn't keep up.


Poor poor Florence heartbreaking and real sad. I think it all stem from the rape and maybe her lack of drive for stardom and I don't think she like show business much and you have to have drive and determination to survive in that business.

Well we can all take consolation and comfort knowing that Flo Ballard is singing with the angeles now in her Fathers heavenly mansion.

And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God. It shone with the glory of God, and its brilliance was like that of a very precious jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal.

In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going for that place is Heaven.

Roberta

[stephanie]

I am shocked that there are no reviews of how Diana and Mary sounded as a duet! I bet that would have been interesting to see. Now I understand the kind of pressure Ross was under to carry that group. When things went sour she was being blamed for it because of the relationship with Berry and nutty fans who dont know the behind the scenes. Kudos to Mary Wilson keeping it together at a time like this. Poor Flo.

[sup_fan]

part of me feels sorry for flo and part of me doesn't. the pressures the 3 girls were under was mind blowing. never-ending travel to gigs, multiple shows a night, recording, rehearsals, press events, photo shoots, gown fittings. and keep in mind they were all of 20, 21, 22 during all of this.

i find Gil's comments hugely insightful. especially how torn up M and D were about the flo situation.

i remember reading in an older Randy book a line that i found rather interesting. i'm paraphrasing here but basically is read that some motown execs were annoyed by Flo's rebellion not simply because of the problems it caused at the time but that if it was individual attention and stardom she craved, then frankly she should have pushed that years prior. let's face it, Diana was just a high school kid when they started. but she knew she wanted to be a star and worked for it from day one.

i certainly don't think that all of flo's problems were her own doing. the supposed rape, the problems with the group, etc. but certainly she contributed some to her own downfall

[marv2]

Gil told me Berry wanted Flo gone for quite a while. They were all tired of the tardiness and Berry felt getting rid of Flo would solve a lot of problems and get Mary to be on time as well. He said Diana and Mary wanted Flo to stay and ignored Berry's comments and threats on the subject. As things grew worse, Gil stepped in but to no avail. He was there the first night Flo was a last minute no show. He never said she was drunk, btw [[but I think he preferred not to make that an issue) . He did say that everyone was on edge waiting for her and when it was announced they would go on without her, he went to the girl's dressing room. There he saw Diana, fully made up in costume, slunk down on a chair against the wall sobbing. He said she looked so small - that her eye makeup and stage attire were bigger than she was. "Just skin and bones sticking out of a dress. No human form. It struck how this little nothing could be the reason everyone is here." He felt like crying himself. He went over to her and bent down and hugged her. She asked through her tears, lost, "what are we gonna do?" and he assured her "we'll be fine." He said she was exhausted, had no idea how they could do a show as a duet and was scared for Flo. The group ended that night and they knew nothing could stop the inevitable change now. I think he said Mary was crying as well. He got up and quietly but assuredly told them what to do. In 5 minutes they were conversing and in 10, Diana was talking out loud about how they'd do this and that. That this wasn't going to be so bad. Mary joined in and they got ready and went on just a few minutes after start time. They were great. He was so proud of them. They did what they had to do and made it work in the round. Afterwards, they were sad, angry and spent. I think they were a duo again the next night - then Marlene came in. He was surprised Flo was given another chance and speculated that Diana had something to do with it because Gordy wasn't having it. Oh, he praised their singing and Mary adjusting her voice to make "a complete sound with Diane." I never asked him what a complete sound was. It happened again a while later and Flo was suspended. I wonder how marlene was paid - did she get Flo money? was Flo paid? He also mentioned that both Diana & Mary were angry at Flo but still looved her and it was very tough. He always referred to Miss Ross as Diana and always referred to Flo as Florence. He was firm in that Flo's drinking was not the issue - he said she just simply couldn't keep up.

Was he still drinking before or after he told you this?

[luke]

lol. Would someone count up how many shows Flo missed, especially compared to other entertainers? And she was blasted for getting ill and yet Diana got ill and concerts got cancelled. The immediate issue that got her fired was sticking her stomach out. Yet the reviews praised their show that night and Flo felt her dress wasnt the right size. It's interesting how many people just buy in to Motowns version of things. Look at the Motown musical--about as far from reality as you can get. Diana was giddy with delight when Flo got canned. She reported her constantly to Berry. Did she think that would help Flo staying in the group?

[jobeterob]

Luke and Mark

You need to read the following post regarding Bradsupremes Post on the Supreme Marlene thread, then take it to heart and stop letting your imaginations run away with you.


Quote Originally Posted by bradsupremes View Post

Am I the only one who thinks Barbara was a bad first choice to replace Florence? She would have fit in visually as she was beautiful, but vocally...no. I'm not saying she isn't a great singer, but her vocal timbre wouldn't have blended with Mary's. The group needed a soprano and I don't believe Barbara was a soprano. It would have been Diana, a mezzo-soprano, with Mary & Barbara who I assume are both altos. It would have thrown off the entire group sound. Marlene Barrow was the opposite. Vocally she was perfect with the group, but she was shorter than Diana and Mary so the visuals would have been throw off. They made the right choice in Cindy Birdsong.
Probably exactly the kind of procedure they went through.

Far too rational for the ten conspiracy theorist fans that see conspiracy in everything Motown, Berry & Diana did.




Today, 04:19 PM #55


RossHolloway
Join Date:Aug 2010Posts:1,441


Quote Originally Posted by jobeterob View Post

Probably exactly the kind of procedure they went through.

Far too rational for the ten conspiracy theorist fans that see conspiracy in everything Motown, Berry & Diana did.
LOL Best post this week.

[supremester]

Not as much as Mary was at Feinsteins the night she lost her "wrap" in the mic stand. No, I'd have to say, no he wasn't.
Was he still drinking before or after he told you this?

[supremester]

Gil LOVED DMF - all three of them. He was very fatherly towards them and felt they were treated horribly. He was sick about Flo leaving and saw that the group was way bigger than three girls. It was a cash machine and Flo didn't fit in. He said she hated flying and always wanted to be home. In hindsight, maybe they should have kept Flo in the group for big things and traded her off with Cindy. Gil blamed Berry, ultimately for everything. He respected him but I don't think he liked him. He agreed with Berry about Flo's position in the group, but it was he and Diana that got Mary her solos and it took a lot to do it. Berry did not like Mary's voice and even after her success with People, fought them on a full solo. Mary KNOWS this and chose to omit it from her book. But I digress. My talks with Harvey and Gil were so enlightening and Gil, acted out acting out his vision of the first Copa act.......is a very very cherished memory. It's as if no one had even spoken to him about this stuff and the dam burst. Harvey was more Q&A and he was all for dumping Flo. I can see, from a management POV, Flo was a huge problem and was holding the group back. I think Diana & Mary's pleadings kept Flo in longer than Berry wanted, and I know Miss Ross was concerned for the group without Flo because she said so in interviews. But, in the heat of the moment, no shows or other acts of noncompliance would be very hard to take and I'm sure Miss Ross felt reporting all of the infractions might have been a way to hopefully get them solved. Gordy couldn't fix a problem he doesn't know about. She also may have been tattling just for spite - things get that way sometimes. I don't recall being told how Mary was about it. But botom line, everything WAS dumped on Ross and her work load was far greater - I can see her resenting less than 100% when she is required to give 300% - for the same money, mind you.

[marv2]

lol. Would someone count up how many shows Flo missed, especially compared to other entertainers? And she was blasted for getting ill and yet Diana got ill and concerts got cancelled. The immediate issue that got her fired was sticking her stomach out. Yet the reviews praised their show that night and Flo felt her dress wasnt the right size. It's interesting how many people just buy in to Motowns version of things. Look at the Motown musical--about as far from reality as you can get. Diana was giddy with delight when Flo got canned. She reported her constantly to Berry. Did she think that would help Flo staying in the group?

You got that right Luke! They buy into all that Motown crap hook, line and sinker! Some not only go along with that lousy explanation as to why already popular, famous groups were renamed. The rationale given that with the lead singer's name out front, Motown could command more money from promoters and booking agents. etc. Now how much sense does that make? LOL!!!!

[marv2]

lol. Would someone count up how many shows Flo missed, especially compared to other entertainers? And she was blasted for getting ill and yet Diana got ill and concerts got cancelled. The immediate issue that got her fired was sticking her stomach out. Yet the reviews praised their show that night and Flo felt her dress wasnt the right size. It's interesting how many people just buy in to Motowns version of things. Look at the Motown musical--about as far from reality as you can get. Diana was giddy with delight when Flo got canned. She reported her constantly to Berry. Did she think that would help Flo staying in the group?

Diane was happier than a pig in shit when Flo was fired by Berry~! True, she'd tattle on Flo to Berry every chance she got while they were out on the road. She tried to help Florence Ballard about as much as she's trying to help Cindy Birdsong..........

[marv2]

and I know Miss Ross was concerned for the group without Flo because she said so in interviews. .

Not here! Here she lies about Flo and says that Flo wanted to go into another kind of business career, that Flo wanted to be off for a while and travel to some islands and relax somewhere........ HA! She also talks about Cindy being Flo's understudy and that they had ANOTHER understudy [[for Mary?).......

So are you sure you know what you are talking about? hmmmmm.........

http://www.cbc.ca/player/Digital+Archives/Arts+and+Entertainment/Music/ID/1811378265/?page=12

[bradsupremes]

She tried to help Florence Ballard about as much as she's trying to help Cindy Birdsong..........

Diana is a private person. Please don't try make her out to be a woman who doesn't care about her former singing partners. I know she cares about Cindy, but she doesn't need to announce it to the world when she helps her former group members. Just like you or I who help a friend in need. The world doesn't need to know.

[marv2]

Diana is a private person. Please don't try make her out to be a woman who doesn't care about her former singing partners. I know she cares about Cindy, but she doesn't need to announce it to the world when she helps her former group members. Just like you or I who help a friend in need. The world doesn't need to know.

Yeah.....well..... BUT! Friends and others I have helped in this life have told people, thus making it public. I will not hold my breathe waiting to hear Cindy Birdsong thanking Diane for all the "private help"!

To me when people use the excuse that " well she's a private person....." I view it as a cop out; a cover up for not really caring.

[skooldem1]

She certainly didn't go to the press when she loaned Mary money. Can you imagine if she went to the press with Mary's woes so money could be raised for her?

[Roberta75]

Diane was happier than a pig in shit when Flo was fired by Berry~! True, she'd tattle on Flo to Berry every chance she got while they were out on the road. She tried to help Florence Ballard about as much as she's trying to help Cindy Birdsong..........

marv2 hid under Mr Gordys bed and in Mr Gordys closet and under his desk at Hitsvile so marv2 heard every conversation between Diane and Mr Gordy and Flo and Mr Gordy and Mary and Mr Gordy and Diane and Flo and Diane and Mary.

marv2s a Motown insider Im real surprised marv2 hasnt written his book Supreme Eavsdropping' yet.

[marv2]

She certainly didn't go to the press when she loaned Mary money. Can you imagine if she went to the press with Mary's woes so money could be raised for her?

Yeah, it was a LOAN with interest attached which Miss Wilson repaid within a years time. I believe it was something like $30,000 Ross loan her around the time she signed her $20 million deal with RCA. I may be wrong with the time frame of Diane's RCA contract, but i do know Mary borrowed that amount in 1981 and paid it back the same year. That was the year Mary got her divorce.

[marv2]

marv2 hid under Mr Gordys bed and in Mr Gordys closet and under his desk at Hitsvile so marv2 heard every conversation between Diane and Mr Gordy and Flo and Mr Gordy and Mary and Mr Gordy and Diane and Flo and Diane and Mary.

marv2s a Motown insider Im real surprised marv2 hasnt written his book Supreme Eavsdropping' yet.

NAH Fool! Some [[maybe ALL) of the folks you just mentioned I know [[but you'll never know, hehehehehe....). Don't have to eavesdrop fool, some information is not top secret. Some of it does not have to have clearance or prior authorization. Whether it is this or that, I will would never go too deep on this or any other public forum that are visited by clowns like you with the truly private business of others, Motown Alumni especially included.

[captainjames]

I believe Cindy has called on Diana before for help and I am sure Diana will not turn her away if she does. I remember her name popping up for Mary Wells, Mary Wilson and Florence Ballard. Perhaps, Diana requests they keep it between themselves as an agreement.

[jobeterob]

Diana is a private person. Please don't try make her out to be a woman who doesn't care about her former singing partners. I know she cares about Cindy, but she doesn't need to announce it to the world when she helps her former group members. Just like you or I who help a friend in need. The world doesn't need to know.

Brad

You are a true gentlemen and smart on top of it.

Can we arrange for you and Andy to give some lessons on behaviour to the resident troll, Marv?

You're a good fellow and are appreciated a lot by many of us.

Rob

[skooldem1]

I'm sure Mary asked for the money saying that she would pay it back. The point is- she helped Mary and didn't publicize it.

[BayouMotownMan]

Does anyone else feel that when a poster constantly drops foul language in his posts that it completely destroys the credibility he craves for? Copy and send to the forum owner

[Roberta75]

Does anyone else feel that when a poster constantly drops foul language in his posts that it completely destroys the credibility he craves for? Copy and send to the forum owner

Its real amazing to me what he gets away with here. Every single thread he post in he takes it south. its a disgarce really. Ive never known anyone who is more obsess with Diane Ross that marv2. Its real disturbing and real sad imo.

[antceleb12]

After reading a lot of the material out there about the Supremes and their individual relationships [[grant it, some of it might not be the most credible), I truly believe that Mary, Diana, Flo, and Cindy cared for each other [[obviously to a lesser extent with Flo and Cindy). Sure, they had their troubles. You put three women together in close proximities - every day for years at a stretch - of course they're going to have their problems! I'm certain most of their issues were probably not as big as a lot of us think, but because they were who they were, the media and fans magnified their issues ten-fold. Diana [[understandably) does not like to talk about a lot of that part of her life, there are a million of hearsay stories about actual [[and fictional) events, and, most importantly, Florence is not hear to give her side of the story. Therefor, we can argue about who back-stabbed who, or what Berry and Diana's intentions were with Flo, but - the truth is - we will never know!

[rod_rick]

I have to agree with you Brad. The first time I remember Diana lending Mary money was in Mary's book. Also if a person do not let it be know you are in trouble how can you help them. People in show business always like to put a positive spin on things unless they are truly dogging someone out. I could be wrong but I think that Cindy has gotten the help she needed because I sent a check in September and it has not been cashed or returned. As for Mary omitting things from her book, her goal was to get the book published so I'm sure there are a lot of things left out her book just like Ms Ross left things out of her book. For example Mary didn't put a thing regarding Rhonda being Berry's daughter in her book, and I don't recall Diana saying anything about pleading with Berry to keep Flo in the groupor her possibly resenting Flo from being less than professional. It was nice to hear of Gil's account of the situation with the Supremes. Now he should right a book.
How did Gil feel about Cindy Birdsong?

[jobeterob]

Its real amazing to me what he gets away with here. Every single thread he post in he takes it south. its a disgarce really. Ive never known anyone who is more obsess with Diane Ross that marv2. Its real disturbing and real sad imo.

I've asked our young gentleman, Brad, to give humility, research, accuracy and behaviour lessons to Marv.

Because Brad is so highly regarded and a gentleman and Marv is a pariah.

I'll report on my success.

[rod_rick]

Why do you guys care about what Marv says? If you don't like it just ignore his post, but NOOOOOO, I think some of you get a kick out of going back and fourth with him because you never fail to respond to what he has to say, we get it, he don't like Diana Ross. Some of us is smart enough to read through al the BS and I mean all of the BS on both sides of the arguments.

[BayouMotownMan]

Diana Ross has been quite generous to her fellow singing partners AND their families. She tried to intervene when Florence was about to lose her house. Flo's husband wanted the check made payable to him. She wisely declined. She has helped Flo's daughters financially, when Michelle had brain surgery some years ago Diana paid for it. She set up a trust fund for those girls which apparently was mishandled by Flo's family. She has helped out Mary and Cindy more than once.

Of course there comes a time when one must gauge how much cash one is going to dole out on the same person. Miss Ross feels, as I'm sure most would, that her resources are not an endless well, she has children and grandchildren whose futures she wants secured, and at some point a person must take responsibility for themselves.

[marv2]

I'm sure Mary asked for the money saying that she would pay it back. The point is- she helped Mary and didn't publicize it.

...and Mary, [[and Florence) have never helped Diane? Get outta Dodge!

[marv2]

Why do you guys care about what Marv says? If you don't like it just ignore his post, but NOOOOOO, I think some of you get a kick out of going back and fourth with him because you never fail to respond to what he has to say, we get it, he don't like Diana Ross. Some of us is smart enough to read through al the BS and I mean all of the BS on both sides of the arguments.

Oh they actually get off on it! Because I am NOT a Diana Ross fan, I am their natural target for whatever it is that they think they are doing to me! hehehehehehehe! I know this all sounds almost too lame to believe, but that is it in a nutshell. Anyone of "them" that says otherwise is lying because it is an embarassement to watch/read them behave this way.

[jobeterob]

Oh they actually get off on it! Because I am NOT a Diana Ross fan, I am their natural target for whatever it is that they think they are doing to me! hehehehehehehe! I know this all sounds almost too lame to believe, but that is it in a nutshell. Anyone of "them" that says otherwise is lying because it is an embarassement to watch/read them behave this way.

It's the poor behaviour that does it for me. I have no issue taking Marv to task for it and his mean, sexist, homophobic, hateful comments elsewhere. I'll stand up and am proud to say so.

And I also completely agree that generally "ignoring the troll is the best policy", just not one I choose to follow.

[marv2]

It's the poor behaviour that does it for me. I have no issue taking Marv to task for it and his mean, sexist, homophobic, hateful comments elsewhere. I'll stand up and am proud to say so.

And I also completely agree that generally "ignoring the troll is the best policy", just not one I choose to follow.

You're about as lame as they come........ I will never forget how you stood up for that racist character that use to be on here several years back. You'll deny it now, but some of us real veterans of this forum remember it and the archives here are perpetual! Now? I could care less about what you have to say because I lost any morsel of respect I could have had for you a very long time ago. You have a deep seated problem that I cannot help you with!

So.........Rock On! Jobeterob, hehehehehehehehe......!!!

[luke]

Diana loaned Mary money and charged interest. Isnt that what banks do??

[marv2]

Diana loaned Mary money and charged interest. Isnt that what banks do??

Yeah, that's what banks do.........not your childhood friend!
Also, all this talk about Diane sending the money to save Flo's house ? Her fans always leave out the part about her demand that Flo sign 5 blank sheets of paper first before she could get the money. Flo declined to do that and lost her home!

[Roberta75]

Diana loaned Mary money and charged interest. Isnt that what banks do??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmYZVu7Io_A

[jobeterob]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmYZVu7Io_A

A personal relationship between the two or just Mary's personal assistants? Or one obsessed fan and his fan?

[skooldem1]

Diana makes wise decisions with her money. When you loan people money it is best to get the agreement in writing. You would have to be a fool not to do this. Friends or not.

[Roberta75]

A personal relationship between the two or just Mary's personal assistants? Or one obsessed fan and his fan?

Love is in the air my dear.

Roberta

[marybrewster]

Diana loaned Mary money and charged interest. Isnt that what banks do??

Yes. Banks also do a credit check. Would Mary have qualified for a loan? I don't know what her financial situation was at the time [[nor do I know it now), but one would assume that asking Diana was a last resort. Mary stated herself she was very fortunate to have a friend like Diana; one with the means to assist her through a rough patch.

Diana would be a fool to make any type of loan without something in writing. It's just something you just do. Maybe not for $20.00, but I assume Mary [[and Florence) borrowed much more than that.

[marybrewster]

Diana makes wise decisions with her money. When you loan people money it is best to get the agreement in writing. You would have to be a fool not to do this. Friends or not.

Exactly. Does anyone on here watch Judge Judy? LOL.

[franjoy56]

Little did Jules Podell know that Flo was right under his nose staying at a York Avenue duplex apartment in the spring of 1968 when she started recording her solo tracks right down the road to the east side of Manhattan.

[Roberta75]

Little did Jules Podell know that Flo was right under his nose staying at a York Avenue duplex apartment in the spring of 1968 when she started recording her solo tracks right down the road to the east side of Manhattan.

Then why didnt Flo or tommy tell mr Podell. If he was that fond of Flo then hed probably have booked her for the Copa Frances.

Roberta

[supremester]

Relax Miss Thang - don't get your panties in a bunch over a press interview from 40 years ago over a very sensitive subject. That was the company line. Geeesh. This from a guy who idolizes a woman who claimed for years she she and Miss Ross :saw each other and talked a lot more than the public knows""" LOLOLOLOL Get over your dress, honey - it's wrinkled!
Not here! Here she lies about Flo and says that Flo wanted to go into another kind of business career, that Flo wanted to be off for a while and travel to some islands and relax somewhere........ HA! She also talks about Cindy being Flo's understudy and that they had ANOTHER understudy [[for Mary?).......

So are you sure you know what you are talking about? hmmmmm.........

http://www.cbc.ca/player/Digital+Archives/Arts+and+Entertainment/Music/ID/1811378265/?page=12

[marv2]

Then why didnt Flo or tommy tell mr Podell. If he was that fond of Flo then hed probably have booked her for the Copa Frances.

Roberta

No shit Sherlock! Florence was in the advance stages of pregnancy by that time and spend some days and some nights in the recording studio while in New York. She had no time to put together an entire for the Copa.

[Roberta75]

No shit Sherlock! Florence was in the advance stages of pregnancy by that time and spend some days and some nights in the recording studio while in New York. She had no time to put together an entire for the Copa.

But given mr podells fondness for dear Florence wouldnt he still met with Flo and tommy and been real happy to book Flo into the copa after the twins was born.
another missed opportunity for poor Florence imo.

[antceleb12]

But given mr podells fondness for dear Florence wouldnt he still met with Flo and tommy and been real happy to book Flo into the copa after the twins was born.
another missed opportunity for poor Florence imo.

Who knows? Maybe she did. As much as Jules might have loved Flo, he had a business to run. Let's be honest. Whatever act Florence did have, it was probably nowhere near Copa-ready. Or, Tommy might have "advised" her not to do so. Or, it might not have ever crossed her mind at all. Regardless, if she could have landed a Copa gig, that would have been great for her.

[Jimi LaLumia]

a solo Florence Ballard would have never been booked in the Copa without , minimum, a hit record of her own, not in a million years would she be booked in any room like that..I'm sure Podell liked his family members, but he didn't book them, either, if he wanted to stay in business..

[marv2]

a solo Florence Ballard would have never been booked in the Copa without , minimum, a hit record of her own, not in a million years would she be booked in any room like that..I'm sure Podell liked his family members, but he didn't book them, either, if he wanted to stay in business..

Yet she performed at the Inuaguration Ball in 1969........ All she needed was the right record company and management.

[Roberta75]

Who knows? Maybe she did. As much as Jules might have loved Flo, he had a business to run. Let's be honest. Whatever act Florence did have, it was probably nowhere near Copa-ready. Or, Tommy might have "advised" her not to do so. Or, it might not have ever crossed her mind at all. Regardless, if she could have landed a Copa gig, that would have been great for her.

Maybe Flo was just real tired of the business and wanted out. She really should never have allowed tommy to be her manager just like Mary shouldnt have allowed that violent Ferrer man to manage the 70s supremes. Oh well all water under to.he bridge now.

Have a blessed and beutiful sunday.

Roberta

[franjoy56]

Maybe Flo was just real tired of the business and wanted out. She really should never have allowed tommy to be her manager just like Mary shouldnt have allowed that violent Ferrer man to manage the 70s supremes. Oh well all water under to.he bridge now.

Have a blessed and beutiful sunday.

Roberta

I have to agree with you on that one, chapman and Ferrer destroyed two thirds of the original Supremes.

[milven]

Seldom does a husband make a good manager for his wife's career. Sometimes, they not only mess up your career, but they also mess up your finances.

[Roberta75]

Seldom does a husband make a good manager for his wife's career. Sometimes, they not only mess up your career, but they also mess up your finances.

And sadly in the case of Pedro Ferrer and Ike Turner they mess up your face as well.

Roberta

[antceleb12]

Maybe Flo was just real tired of the business and wanted out. She really should never have allowed tommy to be her manager just like Mary shouldnt have allowed that violent Ferrer man to manage the 70s supremes. Oh well all water under to.he bridge now.

Have a blessed and beutiful sunday.

Roberta

I have to agree. Flo was given the opportunity to stay with Motown, ironically, but she turned it down. I think she could have done a lot better had she used someone with credibility as her manager and had more motivation. She just seemed burned out.

[Motown Andy]

Back to the original question... I think the Flo situation was more about legalities rather than emotional attachments. Let's take what we know:
1. Cindy first subbed at the Hollywood Bowl April 29, she is not introduced as a Supreme. More importantly, Cindy is still under contract as a Bluebelle. I believe I read somewhere they had difficulty buying out her contract.
2. Flo was back with the girls May 7 for their performance on the Ed Sullivan Show, so while it is plausible that Jules Podell wanted Flo, it is unlikely this was even an issue, she was already back with the group.
3. Berry was making plans to replace Flo, which Flo, Mary, Berry, Shelly and Gil all acknowledged. Their next gig, two weeks at the Copa, May 11-24, was recorded to Acetate and given to Cindy to study.
4. May 22, the girls appear on the Tonight Show, which acknowledges Flo's stand-in at the Bowl.
5. Several engagments between May and June, Cindy following them at all/most performances, and Flo knows she is there. This culminates with Flo's final performance at the Flamingo. Cindy gets a contract, and Flo is released from hers.

It's sad and tragic, but I don't think any of this rested on Jules Podell's shoulders. They took the steps that most companies do to replace someone.

[antceleb12]

Back to the original question... I think the Flo situation was more about legalities rather than emotional attachments. Let's take what we know:
1. Cindy first subbed at the Hollywood Bowl April 29, she is not introduced as a Supreme. More importantly, Cindy is still under contract as a Bluebelle. I believe I read somewhere they had difficulty buying out her contract.
2. Flo was back with the girls May 7 for their performance on the Ed Sullivan Show, so while it is plausible that Jules Podell wanted Flo, it is unlikely this was even an issue, she was already back with the group.
3. Berry was making plans to replace Flo, which Flo, Mary, Berry, Shelly and Gil all acknowledged. Their next gig, two weeks at the Copa, May 11-24, was recorded to Acetate and given to Cindy to study.
4. May 22, the girls appear on the Tonight Show, which acknowledges Flo's stand-in at the Bowl.
5. Several engagments between May and June, Cindy following them at all/most performances, and Flo knows she is there. This culminates with Flo's final performance at the Flamingo. Cindy gets a contract, and Flo is released from hers.

It's sad and tragic, but I don't think any of this rested on Jules Podell's shoulders. They took the steps that most companies do to replace someone.

Hey Andy, good fact check. Everything you said is true. However, I think the Jules situation was the previous year, in 1966, when the Supremes were making their second appearance at the Copa. So, regardless, Jules would not have factored in the 1967 Flo-Cindy situation. :)

[captainjames]

Thanks Andy
......................now can you help with one more concern...
If all of these negotiations were going on,,, how did Patti, Nona and Sarah not know ?

[smark21]

In other words, if Cindy had been able to break her contract quickly, then Flo would not have been asked back into the group?

[supremester]

I'll tell you what her situation was : she had moved in with her mother and filled the house until it was bursting. As for the loan: anyone with a CPA or even an annual association with HR Block can tell you loans MUST have an interest charged or it is considered a gift and tax must be paid. It can be nominal - maybe even less than prime - I'm not sure - but it must be charged and paid or the IRS will visit. Mary, being so popular, puzzles me why she went to mean mean mean Miss Ross who had treated her so shabbily for so many years. Why not go to Flip, Tom, Otis, Pedro, Steve, GC Cameron, ..........or Duke [[ I wonder if Duke paid for her trips to Mexico in '67 & '68........? Anyway, I digress.) Interest was correctly charged. Had it been a high amount, LaMare wooda named a chapter after it.................page 106 "Sixteen points over Prime...." .............. As for Flo's five pieces of white: that's an insult even for Marv's poison pen. Like Judge Judy says: if it isn't logical, it didn't happen. Now what, exactly, would Miss Ross do with 5 autographs from my own personal Miss Flo? Steal her Food Stamps???? Gurrrrrl........get yourself a grip and hold on tight - break a nail if you have to, but hold on tight! .........................@Marvina: Don't be playing the racism card when you play it yourself better than most. Any form of bigotry IS bigotry and the hate you direct to others, inspires hatred in the hearts of others toward you. As Jesus said: "What you say to your enemies, you say to me."
Yes. Banks also do a credit check. Would Mary have qualified for a loan? I don't know what her financial situation was at the time [[nor do I know it now), but one would assume that asking Diana was a last resort. Mary stated herself she was very fortunate to have a friend like Diana; one with the means to assist her through a rough patch.

Diana would be a fool to make any type of loan without something in writing. It's just something you just do. Maybe not for $20.00, but I assume Mary [[and Florence) borrowed much more than that.

[supremester]

And, maybe those vomit bags that beat their wives do it because underneath it all, those wives are stronger than their so-called men. Both Tina and Mary survived and overcame that ultimate betrayal. I hope Pedro and Ike both had many boyfriends in prison.
And sadly in the case of Pedro Ferrer and Ike Turner they mess up your face as well.

Roberta

[supremester]

The whole thing is a moot point. Flo was never kicked out of The Supremes until July. They did a short version of their act at The Bowl in late April with Cindy, but did The Happening when it was #1 probably the very next week on Sullivan with Flo - including The Millie Medley so Flo had to be in the group to learn the routine and get fitted for those hideous "Flapper" costumes. Podell couldn't possibly have suspected Flo was going just from Cindy's one gig. Marlene had done over a dozen and Podell didn't get nosey. They were at The Copa a week or two after that and Cindy was still a Bluebell. I'm sure Podell loved Flo, but the story.........just don't add up. It's great lore, though!
a solo Florence Ballard would have never been booked in the Copa without , minimum, a hit record of her own, not in a million years would she be booked in any room like that..I'm sure Podell liked his family members, but he didn't book them, either, if he wanted to stay in business..

[jillfoster]

Does anyone else feel that when a poster constantly drops foul language in his posts that it completely destroys the credibility he craves for? Copy and send to the forum owner

Did you feel it destroyed your credibility when you sold dozens upon dozens of Supemes photos on ebay that you didn't own the rights to?

[Roberta75]

Did you feel it destroyed your credibility when you sold dozens upon dozens of Surpemes photos on ebay that you didn't own the rights to?

You just cant help youself dude.

[jillfoster]

You just cant help youself dude.

I just like popping the bubbles of people who act like their shit don't stink.

[Roberta75]

I just like popping the bubbles of people who act like their shit don't stink.

Bless you. xxxx

[supremester]

Wow - thank you for the timeline - it's even more clear with exact dates. I wonder though, what would have happened if Flo didn't act out that night? What if she got it together and was happy and content?
Back to the original question... I think the Flo situation was more about legalities rather than emotional attachments. Let's take what we know:
1. Cindy first subbed at the Hollywood Bowl April 29, she is not introduced as a Supreme. More importantly, Cindy is still under contract as a Bluebelle. I believe I read somewhere they had difficulty buying out her contract.
2. Flo was back with the girls May 7 for their performance on the Ed Sullivan Show, so while it is plausible that Jules Podell wanted Flo, it is unlikely this was even an issue, she was already back with the group.
3. Berry was making plans to replace Flo, which Flo, Mary, Berry, Shelly and Gil all acknowledged. Their next gig, two weeks at the Copa, May 11-24, was recorded to Acetate and given to Cindy to study.
4. May 22, the girls appear on the Tonight Show, which acknowledges Flo's stand-in at the Bowl.
5. Several engagments between May and June, Cindy following them at all/most performances, and Flo knows she is there. This culminates with Flo's final performance at the Flamingo. Cindy gets a contract, and Flo is released from hers.

It's sad and tragic, but I don't think any of this rested on Jules Podell's shoulders. They took the steps that most companies do to replace someone.

[supremester]

I've always felt part of Diana's Flo issue was that she genuinely cared for Flo, but was beyond angry and annoyed at her for the reasons one would suspect, so she would be torn - but also remember Flo was popular and everyone at Motown knew that. Firing Flo was a gamble and I think it was harder for Miss Ross to roll those dice than Berry. I recall one interview specifically that she wondered at the time if the public would accept "the new group" and if not, maybe she would go out as a solo. To give late bloomers an idea of Flo's je ne sais quoi: of the two, Mary was classically much prettier and way more talented as a vocalist - yet Flo was by far more popular. A trio with 10 #1's in less than three years? You don't mess with it unless you absolutely have to. Gil loved Cindy, and at the time, I was still anti-Cindy, so I didn't beyond his comments on her. He did say about JML, wistfully, "....I just hated to see that group break up...." It's not true that he never worked with The Supremes after Lady, as he still did some of their charts and conducted when he wasn't out with Ross.
I have to agree with you Brad. The first time I remember Diana lending Mary money was in Mary's book. Also if a person do not let it be know you are in trouble how can you help them. People in show business always like to put a positive spin on things unless they are truly dogging someone out. I could be wrong but I think that Cindy has gotten the help she needed because I sent a check in September and it has not been cashed or returned. As for Mary omitting things from her book, her goal was to get the book published so I'm sure there are a lot of things left out her book just like Ms Ross left things out of her book. For example Mary didn't put a thing regarding Rhonda being Berry's daughter in her book, and I don't recall Diana saying anything about pleading with Berry to keep Flo in the groupor her possibly resenting Flo from being less than professional. It was nice to hear of Gil's account of the situation with the Supremes. Now he should right a book.
How did Gil feel about Cindy Birdsong?

[supremester]

and 18 Aunts and Uncles with 7 billion cousins all needing braces and college. I hear she is VERY generous to her extended family.
Diana Ross has been quite generous to her fellow singing partners AND their families. She tried to intervene when Florence was about to lose her house. Flo's husband wanted the check made payable to him. She wisely declined. She has helped Flo's daughters financially, when Michelle had brain surgery some years ago Diana paid for it. She set up a trust fund for those girls which apparently was mishandled by Flo's family. She has helped out Mary and Cindy more than once.

Of course there comes a time when one must gauge how much cash one is going to dole out on the same person. Miss Ross feels, as I'm sure most would, that her resources are not an endless well, she has children and grandchildren whose futures she wants secured, and at some point a person must take responsibility for themselves.

[supremester]

The twins were born prematurely in Oct '68 and Flo had a lot of time before that to work with Cholly. She didn't have a manager or someone to put her act together. I cannot recall if Gil helped her or not, I think maybe he did. I gotta dig out those tapes. .
But given mr podells fondness for dear Florence wouldnt he still met with Flo and tommy and been real happy to book Flo into the copa after the twins was born.
another missed opportunity for poor Florence imo.

[supremester]

Not everyone has as severe of a problem with that as perhaps you do. Try more fiber and lean in a vegan sort of way to see if that helps. Personally, since people buy those pics, he is doing them a favor.
I just like popping the bubbles of people who act like their shit don't stink.

[jobeterob]

Back to the original question... I think the Flo situation was more about legalities rather than emotional attachments. Let's take what we know:
1. Cindy first subbed at the Hollywood Bowl April 29, she is not introduced as a Supreme. More importantly, Cindy is still under contract as a Bluebelle. I believe I read somewhere they had difficulty buying out her contract.
2. Flo was back with the girls May 7 for their performance on the Ed Sullivan Show, so while it is plausible that Jules Podell wanted Flo, it is unlikely this was even an issue, she was already back with the group.
3. Berry was making plans to replace Flo, which Flo, Mary, Berry, Shelly and Gil all acknowledged. Their next gig, two weeks at the Copa, May 11-24, was recorded to Acetate and given to Cindy to study.
4. May 22, the girls appear on the Tonight Show, which acknowledges Flo's stand-in at the Bowl.
5. Several engagments between May and June, Cindy following them at all/most performances, and Flo knows she is there. This culminates with Flo's final performance at the Flamingo. Cindy gets a contract, and Flo is released from hers.

It's sad and tragic, but I don't think any of this rested on Jules Podell's shoulders. They took the steps that most companies do to replace someone.

So simple. So rational.

But it eliminates all the conspiracies and ways to blame Berry & Diana so it is not favored by the obsessed.

[floyjoy678]

I think people are discussing the Supremes 2nd engagement at the Copa in 1966 and not the one in 1967. In the '67 Copa appearance Florence was back in the group for at least a week by that point, apparently Mary and Diana begged a reluctant Florence to come back and I'm surprised she did. Of course I do often wonder if maybe Berry told Florence she HAD to come back because she was under contract at least for another year.

One thing I'm thinking of [[and have before) is if Berry didn't even buy out Cindy's contract yet then why did he fire Florence so quickly in April? Why didn't he just wait until he had Cindy under contract for Motown to officially fire Florence? Berry was a smart man and I'm sure he knew he was going to run into problems trying to get Cindy and he was taking a risk firing Florence when he was going to need her for at least a couple of more months. I wonder what would have happened if Florence declined to come back into the Supremes. Would they just say "To hell with it?" and just throw Cindy in there anyway? I do remember there was an article in a newspaper from May '67 saying that the Supremes' appearance on Ed Sullivan that month was almost cancelled, I wonder if that was because of Florence's situation.

[supremester]

If Hollywood Bowl was April 29, Sullivan May 5 and Copa May 9, then Flo was not fired from anything. I just watched both songs from Sullivan and Flo s about as connected as she ever was, looks good and is smiling and interactive with her lyrics. She misses a few things but it was no biggie as she often did that anyway. She didn't learn that routine in one day but I do think this was one of the Sullivan's The Andantes did that Louvaine talked about. It doesn't make sense Gordy would fire Flo without Cindy being signed. I didn't know anything about the rumored cancellation of the Sullivan appearance, but no way would he have gone with Marlene and then Cindy next time. It HAD to be Flo or they don't go.

[smark21]

....Poor Flo.

[marybrewster]

In 1968, Flo may not have had a whole "act" together to present at the Copa, but couldn't she have been an opening act? Her two singles, a Supremes medley, a showtune or two.

[reese]

In 1968, Flo may not have had a whole "act" together to present at the Copa, but couldn't she have been an opening act? Her two singles, a Supremes medley, a showtune or two.

I read that Flo did do some dates opening that year for Wilson Pickett. In an interview with REACH OUT newsletter, Cholly Atkins said that he helped Flo put an act together, but that she didn't want to do any Supremes material. I haven't read any reviews from anyone who might have attended her shows, besides Tony Turner. And since some of what he has written has been proven to be untrue or distorted, I don't know if his description of her Atlantic City engagement was accurate,

[Motown4Ever518]

I am smiling as I read how this thread is sliding down the mountainside because some 50 some odd years ago, four beautiful brown skinned girls who were someones sister, friend,neighbor, with a wish,dared to dream. And acted out on that dream, not knowing that some 50 some odd years later there would be all of these smart people from all over the world talking about them, and TLC sales figures aside in a modern era, would become the top female vocal group ever.

As far as Jules Podel and Ms. Ballard, what was there to not like about Flo? She was beautiful, and no man with a pulse could resist her, whose she had you in her sights. On the other hand, I don't think that he cared about Flo not being there so long is it did not negatively impact business.

[nomis]

Flo once opened for Bill Cosby after she left the group.

[supremester]

Hey Reese - I had forgotten about Flo opening for Pickett - and it was own damn newletter lol.....dementia is definitely setting in fast!
I read that Flo did do some dates opening that year for Wilson Pickett. In an interview with REACH OUT newsletter, Cholly Atkins said that he helped Flo put an act together, but that she didn't want to do any Supremes material. I haven't read any reviews from anyone who might have attended her shows, besides Tony Turner. And since some of what he has written has been proven to be untrue or distorted, I don't know if his description of her Atlantic City engagement was accurate,