Sept 2, 1997 LA Times: Wilson vs. Motown, Ragland and Others

[jobeterob]

*

Supreme Decision: A Los Angeles judge has rejected founding Supremes member Mary Wilson's lawsuit against Motown Records and several former Supremes members, finding that Motown Records, and not Wilson, is the sole owner of rights to the group's name. Wilson had sued several former group members and others last year claiming that they "exploited" the group's image by forming subsequent musical groups such as Sounds of the Supremes, which features Kaaren Ragland. However, the court approved the use of the name Sounds of the Supremes, finding that Motown has no objections to the name and has actually "encouraged and supported" the group's performances. Counterclaims filed against Wilson by three of the former band members and their management company, alleging that she has interfered with their business activities by attempting to stop performances by Sounds of the Supremes, have yet to be decided. Wilson could not be reached for comment because of the Labor Day holiday.

[midnightman]

I remember reading about this. Didn't she sued Scherrie and Lynda for the usage of the FLOS? Could've sworn she did, but I may have been reading into things.

[antceleb12]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't she have some access a few years ago with preventing fake groups from performing using certain names?

[jobeterob]

I remember reading about this. Didn't she sued Scherrie and Lynda for the usage of the FLOS? Could've sworn she did, but I may have been reading into things.

Probably in this same lawsuit.

And yes, there is now legislation in some states regarding group names but it doesn't affect tribute groups.

[supremester]

I think Mary would have had a better chance if she sued with Ross & Flo's estate. Why should Mary own the name alone? She had been in the group the longest but that would have nothing to do with ownership of the name. Either it belonged to DMF or Motown - I can think of no rational case for it to be Mary's. Had she not burned her bridges with Berry & Miss Ross at Motown 25 & Dreamgirl, I'm certain Berry wooda given it to her.

[jobeterob]

Berry did give it to her ~ just not in the way she wanted.

[supremester]

Baby,THAT'S backatcha!

[BayouMotownMan]

Shortly after the accident that killed her son, Mary sued Jean Terrell, Lynda Laurence and Scherrie Payne over billing themselves as "The Supremes" or "Formerly of the Supremes." Jean had been out of the group for two years. The suit was thrown out.

[jobeterob]

There is a real gap in logic when you give up your rights to a name and then start legal action against people for using it. Most lawyers would tell you that you have a loser on your hands I would think.

[midnightman]

I think Mary would have had a better chance if she sued with Ross & Flo's estate. Why should Mary own the name alone? She had been in the group the longest but that would have nothing to do with ownership of the name. Either it belonged to DMF or Motown - I can think of no rational case for it to be Mary's. Had she not burned her bridges with Berry & Miss Ross at Motown 25 & Dreamgirl, I'm certain Berry wooda given it to her.

Yeah the name should be in ownership of Florence's estate, Diana Ross' and Mary's but since Mary was too proud to call on either Florence's daughters or Diana, she thought she could take it on. In truth, it was foolish of her to sue since those groups weren't trying to book themselves as the actual Supremes. Kaaren had "Sounds of the Supremes" and Scherrie and Lynda were "Former Ladies of the Supremes". Nothing illegal in using those names. People know who the Supremes are.

[marv2]

Yeah the name should be in ownership of Florence's estate, Diana Ross' and Mary's but since Mary was too proud to call on either Florence's daughters or Diana, she thought she could take it on. In truth, it was foolish of her to sue since those groups weren't trying to book themselves as the actual Supremes. Kaaren had "Sounds of the Supremes" and Scherrie and Lynda were "Former Ladies of the Supremes". Nothing illegal in using those names. People know who the Supremes are.

It was about those CDs......................

[BayouMotownMan]

The CDs in question were not released by Scherrie, Lynda or Jean but by producers overseas

[Roberta75]

The CDs in question were not released by Scherrie, Lynda or Jean but by producers overseas

And no offense but I doubt they sold enough for Mary Wilson to be even slightly concern. If it was about CDs then Marys lawsuit was silly imo.

Roberta

[marv2]

The CDs in question were not released by Scherrie, Lynda or Jean but by producers overseas

That didn't matter........

[marv2]

And no offense but I doubt they sold enough for Mary Wilson to be even slightly concern. If it was about CDs then Marys lawsuit was silly imo.

Roberta

You just don't get it and I am not going to explain it all to you........

[bradsupremes]

And no offense but I doubt they sold enough for Mary Wilson to be even slightly concern. If it was about CDs then Marys lawsuit was silly imo.

Roberta

Actually when the FLOS CD's overseas are being sold as "The Supremes - Greatest Hits," the public is being fooled into thinking the songs they are getting the original classic hits. Instead they are really getting the re-recorded versions by the FLOS. In that case, Diana and Mary would then be getting screwed out of royalties. Mary would then have a legit concern. Now the public should know better who is who in the group if they are a fan, but when you have new, young fans who don't know the ladies individually then that becomes a problem.

I've seen several of those FLOS CD's here in the US in CD stores like FYE and when you have the option to buy a cheaper CD by the FLOS or an official Ultimate Collection released through Motown and you don't want to spend that much, which are you going to choose? The marketing may be out of Scherrie and Lynda's hands, but you would think they have a say in how their products are put out and marketed. I'm not blaming Scherrie and Lynda because clearly Mary could have seen how her act was being marketed in the early 80's as "the Supremes," but if you are the act don't you have a say on how your name is being put out there.

[marv2]

Actually when the FLOS CD's overseas are being sold as "The Supremes - Greatest Hits," the public is being fooled into thinking the songs they are getting the original classic hits. Instead they are really getting the re-recorded versions by the FLOS. In that case, Diana and Mary would then be getting screwed out of royalties. Mary would then have a legit concern. Now the public should know better who is who in the group if they are a fan, but when you have new, young fans who don't know the ladies individually then that becomes a problem.

I've seen several of those FLOS CD's here in the US in CD stores like FYE and when you have the option to buy a cheaper CD by the FLOS or an official Ultimate Collection released through Motown and you don't want to spend that much, which are you going to choose? The marketing may be out of Scherrie and Lynda's hands, but you would think they have a say in how their products are put out and marketed. I'm not blaming Scherrie and Lynda because clearly Mary could have seen how her act was being marketed in the early 80's as "the Supremes," but if you are the act don't you have a say on how your name is being put out there.

Brad, you are exactly right.! It got even worse when they started using photos of Mary, Diana and Flo on the CD covers of the FLOS' re-recordings. Labeling them "The Supremes" was just a bit much to bear for some.......

They were sold in NY even at the grocery store check out lines!

[milven]

I agree with Marv and Brad on this one. The packaging of SOS and FLOS CDs is deceptive. Many of them are labeled as THE SUPREMES. They are not. It doesn't matter how many they sell, how would you like to be that ONE person who bought one of these CDs and then played it to very disapointed ears. I think some of them even had pictures of the original Supremes even though they were nowhere on the CD

http://image.allmusic.com/13/amg/cov200/drn900/n924/n92479wmz3i.jpg

[Roberta75]

You just don't get it and I am not going to explain it all to you........

Please dont and please stop corresponding with me and Ill respectfully do the same.

[jobeterob]

Please dont and please stop corresponding with me and Ill respectfully do the same.

Oh Canadian Thanksgiving Blessings for us all! Marv is not going to explain it all to us.

What more can we ask for!!

[smark21]

Well Mary was dumb to sue groups over The Supremes name when she didn’t have a clear legal title to the name. If her lawyer pushed her to sue, s/he must have been incompetent, milking Mary for money, or unethical or any combination of the three.

[marv2]

I agree with Marv and Brad on this one. The packaging of SOS and FLOS CDs is deceptive. Many of them are labeled as THE SUPREMES. They are not. It doesn't matter how many they sell, how would you like to be that ONE person who bought one of these CDs and then played it to very disapointed ears. I think some of them even had pictures of the original Supremes even though they were nowhere on the CD

http://image.allmusic.com/13/amg/cov200/drn900/n924/n92479wmz3i.jpg

It's called "IDENTITY THEFT!"

[marv2]

Please dont and please stop corresponding with me and Ill respectfully do the same.

No way Jonc! You can put me on ignore, but don't tell me what to do.

[marv2]

Oh Canadian Thanksgiving Blessings for us all! Marv is not going to explain it all to us.

What more can we ask for!!

and Happy Columbus Day to all New Yorkers and everyone else in the good Ole US of A!!!

[marv2]

Well Mary was dumb to sue groups over The Supremes name when she didn’t have a clear legal title to the name. If her lawyer pushed her to sue, s/he must have been incompetent, milking Mary for money, or unethical or any combination of the three.

You don't know the half of it! hehehehehehehehe...........

[marv2]

Here is one of the "Former Ladies of The Supremes" CDs:

[Roberta75]

No way Jonc! You can put me on ignore, but don't tell me what to do.

I never told you what to do I respectfully ask that you stop correspponding with me but whatever you want Detroitlive313. I offer you a peace pipe for the good of the forum and you rude reply.

A real good source inform me that you now posting on YouTube that Diane Ross may have murdered Flo Ballard and Diane and Mr Gordy plotted to destroy Florence. Thats right up there with your homophobic hate. Keep it up cause you are in for one really miighty come to Jesus one of these days.

Stop spreading hate marv2 before it destroy you.

Roberta

[REDHOT]

I have to disagree,the cd's was sold many many many years ago,and Scherrie and Lynda had nothing to do with it,these people,who put these cd's out could care less,Motown didn't go after these people,for releasing these cd's,with Mary Florence and Diana on the cover,so i could care less,it's no big deal,i know 100% Scherrie and Lynda had nothing to do with it,they recorded it,and the person,that produced it,sold it,to who ever.Please stay positive

[marv2]

I have to disagree,the cd's was sold many many many years ago,and Scherrie and Lynda had nothing to do with it,these people,who put these cd's out could care less,Motown didn't go after these people,for releasing these cd's,with Mary Florence and Diana on the cover,so i could care less,it's no big deal,i know 100% Scherrie and Lynda had nothing to do with it,they recorded it,and the person,that produced it,sold it,to who ever.Please stay positive

It still was deceptive and neither Lynda or Scherrie did anything to stop it. They should have joined Mary to help put an end to it, but nooooooooo...... Lynda wanted to get all upset with the Sounds of the Supremes when they were taking gigs in the U.K. that she thought should have went to the FLOOOOOSSSS.......LOL!

[Roberta75]

I have to disagree,the cd's was sold many many many years ago,and Scherrie and Lynda had nothing to do with it,these people,who put these cd's out could care less,Motown didn't go after these people,for releasing these cd's,with Mary Florence and Diana on the cover,so i could care less,it's no big deal,i know 100% Scherrie and Lynda had nothing to do with it,they recorded it,and the person,that produced it,sold it,to who ever.Please stay positive

Keep telling the truth dear RedHot.

with my sincere fodness.

Roberta

[jobeterob]

Redhot, can you explain a little further how those CDS came to be issued. I gather they were recorded and sold and then, out they come and Scherrie and Lynda don't really know from where? And Motown doesn't really care? A shame.

I suppose I can understand the competition between Mary Wilson, the FLOS, the Sounds of the Supremes and various tribute groups for the portion of the market they can hope to attract. The strange thing is that today, some of the Tribute groups sound the best ~ sorry to say, but true.

Smark is right though; how the heck do you give up your rights to a name and then start sueing people when you don't even own the name and you can't get Motown/Universal to hop on board with you. Perhaps Mary is not that smart after all ~ she plays 2nd fiddle until the whole gig is up, she marries a wingnut who demolishes her source of income, she gives away the names of her group that Berry and Diana gave her, and then she starts sueing over it.

I would be interested to see a report on what happened to the counterclaim.

It's ok Marv; you said you would spare us your version; then you backtracked on that immediately. We already know your report will be suspect. Get Lynda or Scherrie or Susaye to give us the real goods, someone who was there.

[marv2]

Redhot, can you explain a little further how those CDS came to be issued. I gather they were recorded and sold and then, out they come and Scherrie and Lynda don't really know from where? And Motown doesn't really care? A shame.

I suppose I can understand the competition between Mary Wilson, the FLOS, the Sounds of the Supremes and various tribute groups for the portion of the market they can hope to attract. The strange thing is that today, some of the Tribute groups sound the best ~ sorry to say, but true.

Smark is right though; how the heck do you give up your rights to a name and then start sueing people when you don't even own the name and you can't get Motown/Universal to hop on board with you. Perhaps Mary is not that smart after all ~ she plays 2nd fiddle until the whole gig is up, she marries a wingnut who demolishes her source of income, she gives away the names of her group that Berry and Diana gave her, and then she starts sueing over it.

I would be interested to see a report on what happened to the counterclaim.

It's ok Marv; you said you would spare us your version; then you backtracked on that immediately. We already know your report will be suspect. Get Lynda or Scherrie or Susaye to give us the real goods, someone who was there.

You so funny! LOL! It's not my version. I have seen the Court documents and still have a copy of them! I wasn't there, I was in New York at the time, but I have the documents.

[supremester]

Motown licenses their music to different marketing companies and so does everyone else. The Flo's may have licensed their recordings to someone who used the wrong pics. Or, they could just be bootlegs - there is A LOT of that by fly-by-night companies. Scherrie & Lynda do NOT approve and HAVE taken steps to verify all art going out. ANYONE suggesting that they did nothing to stop it is simply incorrect. I suspect such a person may not have ever discussed it with them and therefore is Assuming nothing was done in order to besmirch their good names. Personally, I do not approve of the hits being re-recorded and sold as "The Supremes" even in The UK. I think there should be a clear distinction ON THE COVER to inform buyers that these are not containing the classic and iconic Diana Ross lead vocals. Those who prefer not to have Diana Ross vocals would be very happy for this info, as would those who do. I also believe that Motown would be wise to market all Ross era Supremes recordings as Diana Ross & The Supremes to avoid confusion. Lynda & Scherrie are sweethearts and every inch true Supremes. They were really, real Supremes just 13 years ago. May hasn't been an official Supreme for 36 years. There's a million ways to spin this stuff. I wish they could all get along and be one group and maybe ask Miss Ross to step in and get them to be official.

[marv2]

Motown licenses their music to different marketing companies and so does everyone else. The Flo's may have licensed their recordings to someone who used the wrong pics. Or, they could just be bootlegs - there is A LOT of that by fly-by-night companies. Scherrie & Lynda do NOT approve and HAVE taken steps to verify all art going out. ANYONE suggesting that they did nothing to stop it is simply incorrect. I suspect such a person may not have ever discussed it with them and therefore is Assuming nothing was done in order to besmirch their good names. Personally, I do not approve of the hits being re-recorded and sold as "The Supremes" even in The UK. I think there should be a clear distinction ON THE COVER to inform buyers that these are not containing the classic and iconic Diana Ross lead vocals. Those who prefer not to have Diana Ross vocals would be very happy for this info, as would those who do. I also believe that Motown would be wise to market all Ross era Supremes recordings as Diana Ross & The Supremes to avoid confusion. Lynda & Scherrie are sweethearts and every inch true Supremes. They were really, real Supremes just 13 years ago. May hasn't been an official Supreme for 36 years. There's a million ways to spin this stuff. I wish they could all get along and be one group and maybe ask Miss Ross to step in and get them to be official.

But I thought she did step in back in 2000 and without Mary Wilson, she got cancelled!

[supremester]

You thought wrong, again, dear. Miss Ross stepped back in without Mary Wilson and the tour ended prematurely, but TNT did not cancel the tour. They cancelled two dates, a mistake that cost them 8 figures mind you, and tried 2 hours later to re-instate the shows. They BEGGED Miss Ross to continue the tour and that's why they kept all dates on the books open and continued to sell tickets and why it was Miss Ross who said the tour was cancelled and why SFX issued a public apology praising Miss Ross' professionalism and why SFX paid everyone on the tour for every show right through to Las Vegas at The MGM which was nearing a sellout at a 275.00 plus fees top ticket [[as was Anaheim, San Jose and San Diego all at 250 top plus fees.) TNT tried to strong arm Miss Ross and learned within a matter of minutes not to try to pull that kind of crap on her, but it was too late - she had had enough. And I didn't notice anyone in the packed house of MSG asking for Mary.............nope, of course, the applause and cheering and screams of "I Love You!" might have drowned you out. LOLOLOL hehehehe

[marv2]

You thought wrong, again, dear. Miss Ross stepped back in without Mary Wilson and the tour ended prematurely, but TNT did not cancel the tour. They cancelled two dates, a mistake that cost them 8 figures mind you, and tried 2 hours later to re-instate the shows. They BEGGED Miss Ross to continue the tour and that's why they kept all dates on the books open and continued to sell tickets and why it was Miss Ross who said the tour was cancelled and why SFX issued a public apology praising Miss Ross' professionalism and why SFX paid everyone on the tour for every show right through to Las Vegas at The MGM which was nearing a sellout at a 275.00 plus fees top ticket [[as was Anaheim, San Jose and San Diego all at 250 top plus fees.) TNT tried to strong arm Miss Ross and learned within a matter of minutes not to try to pull that kind of crap on her, but it was too late - she had had enough. And I didn't notice anyone in the packed house of MSG asking for Mary.............nope, of course, the applause and cheering and screams of "I Love You!" might have drowned you out. LOLOLOL hehehehe

No, no, no, no! I am pretty I am right about this. Diana Ross tried to have a Supremes Tour without Mary Wilson and the tour was cancelled. She was cancelled......kicked to the curb, told to go home and have a drink because there will be no Supremes without Mary Wilson and Cindy Birdsong up in hera! LOL!

[marv2]

I can't remember exactly where I first heard about it. Maybe it was this piece from Time Magazine. Maybe it was from my buddy Vinny, I just can't remember. I do remember that once that Fake Supremes Tour was scheduled for here on Long Island........the people said NO! and it was cancelled right away.

[jobeterob]

I can't remember exactly where I first heard about it. Maybe it was this piece from Time Magazine. Maybe it was from my buddy Vinny, I just can't remember. I do remember that once that Fake Supremes Tour was scheduled for here on Long Island........the people said NO! and it was cancelled right away.

Marv, post the Court documents.

[supremester]

Yes, you are very pretty, Marv, and I don't consider it a lack of humility to state so! I know you want to believe what you want to believe, but the truth is that TNT did not cancel the tour. You may even be able to write to them and find out. Or ask the roadies, band, or Scherrie & Lynda - they all got paid in full for the entire tour. It's true the tour didn't do as well as expected. Certainly Mary had a lot to do with that. Not because she wasn't there, but because she was lying about Scherrie & Lynda being fake Supremes, lying about the RTL money being paid to her and Miss Ross....just like her lies about The Andantes, Motown 25 and all her other lies LOL. The nut for RTL was approx. 557k - not that hard to get to if you do the math. 1000 floor seats at 250 and you are halfway there. There were shows that didn't make much and one that lost money, but many that were up high enough to be paying percentages and Miss Ross had every intention of finishing the tour until they tried to change things midstream. They broke the contract with the cancellation of Jones Beach and paid the consequences BIG TIME. I still have articles with quotes from TNT insisting the tour was not cancelled and that hopefully at least the last ten dates could be salvaged. I know you don't want that to be true, that Mary was SO missed that the show couldn't go on without her [[but not so missed that she could get similar gigs on her own LOLOLOLOL) So, enjoy your fool's paradise - you're happier there. Or, you can get the attendance figures from Billboard, do the math and see for yourself.
No, no, no, no! I am pretty I am right about this. Diana Ross tried to have a Supremes Tour without Mary Wilson and the tour was cancelled. She was cancelled......kicked to the curb, told to go home and have a drink because there will be no Supremes without Mary Wilson and Cindy Birdsong up in hera! LOL!

[marv2]

Marv, post the Court documents.

Wait a minute! Let me make sure I understand you correctly. YOU, Jobeterob are asking ME, Marv to do you a favor? WA! LOL!!!!!! You are so hilarious! LOL!!!! Happy Thanksgiving Jobeterob and to all my good friends up in Canada!

Marv

[supremester]

Yes, Miss Ross got a lot of bad press - at the time, I didn't know the whole story - but I did find it odd that SFX was ADDING shows after it knew sales in many markets were less than brisk. After 20/20 aired, I was shocked when Portland and a few other shows got added. I do some work with tour companies [[end of tour gifts like Paul McCartney's 275 toiletry bags - all leather removed) and was told that, although sales here were dismal - SFX said the show would definitely play and they were planning to drape off 75% of The Rose Garden so the show wouldn't look empty. Portland would have made Columbus look like a huge success! Are you aware that Mary was still trying to get on the tour even after it started? Kicked to the curb? Nah....... you must be thinking of both Sophisticated Ladies tours: the original Equity flop and the second,"Scab Tour" flop. No bad press. No one going on talk shows bad mouthing it and spreading lies trying desperately to persuade the public not to go. Just no interest in Mary doing The Duke. Imagine if all those people you claim stayed home because Mary wasn't on RTL went to SEE Mary - Sophisticated Ladies would still be running! Their loss, actually, cuz she sings the songs well.

[REDHOT]

What i was trying to say,the guys who produced Former Ladies Of The Supremes,back in the day,have sold these tracks to many different company's,Scherrie and Lynda did not own none of the tracks,the producer did,so he could sell them to who ever he wanted to,Scherrie or Lynda could not stop it,like i said,i'm 100% sure Scherrie or Lynda had nothing to do with selling these tracks,and they had nothing to do with the cover,or the name,The Supremes bein' on the cover of the cd's,blame the producer,but don't blame Scherrie or Lynda,i'm gonna say it again,Motown didn't go after the company,that released these cd's,so don't trip
Please stay positive

[ejluther]

What do you think about the fact that the acronym [[FLOS) is obviously playing on the name of arguably the most famous of former Supremes, Florence Ballard? Do you think that's intentional or just a coincidence? Either way, is it amusing or in bad taste? I find it a bit of both but imagine it gets missed by a lot of people anyway. I skimmed the above posts and didn't see this mentioned but may have missed it...

[marv2]

What do you think about the fact that the acronym [[FLOS) is obviously playing on the name of arguably the most famous of former Supremes, Florence Ballard? Do you think that's intentional or just a coincidence? Either way, is it amusing or in bad taste? I find it a bit of both but imagine it gets missed by a lot of people anyway. I skimmed the above posts and didn't see this mentioned but may have missed it...

I think it is sadly ironic and in very poor taste in light of the fact that Florence Ballard founded the group but was forbidden to say that she was a Supreme.

[jobeterob]

Marv, you are just like the most conservative Republicans ~ locked into archaic views and forced into stupid positions by rigid ideas unsupported by facts.

It is fairly clear Scherrie and Lynda have nothing to do with these misleading CDs that were not of very good quality and which did not sell much at all. Let it go and let them go. The real problem is not that Mary Wilson lost some gigs and money and CD sales to the FLOS, the real problem is that she did not have a successful solo career, nor did she even have one hit on her own. Bitching about Scherrie and Lynda and every other potential minute issue doesn't fix it. If Diana Ross has no issue with them singing HER songs, Mary shouldn't either. In the past Mary just had a problem with EVERYTHING; but even she gave it up.

You don't have the Court documents; you never can back up 80% of what you say. All just blustery BS.

[milven]

You so funny! LOL! It's not my version. I have seen the Court documents and still have a copy of them! I wasn't there, I was in New York at the time, but I have the documents.


Marv, post the Court documents.



You don't know the half of it! hehehehehehehehe...........



Marv, post the Court documents.



Wait a minute! Let me make sure I understand you correctly. YOU, Jobeterob are asking ME, Marv to do you a favor? WA! LOL!!!!!! You are so hilarious! LOL!!!!
Marv


Marv,You don't have the Court documents; you never can back up 80% of what you say. All just blustery BS.

Rob, Marv does have a knack of giving us partial info and telling us we don’t know the half of it When we ask him for the other half, he says its none of our business or he wasn't talking to us or we don't need to know or – well, you get it, he has a whole catalogue of excuses to not tell us the “other half of it”

Marv knew about the planned MOTOWN 50 TV SPECIAL that never happened before it never happened. He heard the 5th Dimension’s Love Hangover before it was ever recorded, and so it is possible that he has the court documents and had them in his possession even before they were printed. I would never attempt to state something on this board that I couldn’t then back up if challenged. But on this board, Marv seems to be omnipotent and can say anything he wants. The moderator has already instructed us not to challenge anything that he states.

So Rob, don't hold your breath waiting for Marv to prove something that he stated here as gospel.

[marv2]

Marv, you are just like the most conservative Republicans ~ locked into archaic views and forced into stupid positions by rigid ideas unsupported by facts.

It is fairly clear Scherrie and Lynda have nothing to do with these misleading CDs that were not of very good quality and which did not sell much at all. Let it go and let them go. The real problem is not that Mary Wilson lost some gigs and money and CD sales to the FLOS, the real problem is that she did not have a successful solo career, nor did she even have one hit on her own. Bitching about Scherrie and Lynda and every other potential minute issue doesn't fix it. If Diana Ross has no issue with them singing HER songs, Mary shouldn't either. In the past Mary just had a problem with EVERYTHING; but even she gave it up.

You don't have the Court documents; you never can back up 80% of what you say. All just blustery BS.

I think the fact that you NOW have a problem with us discussing this subject when YOU are the one that started this thread makes you look irrational as HELL!

[milven]

I think the fact that you NOW have a problem with us discussing this subject when YOU are the one that started this thread makes you look irrational as HELL!

He was trying to discuss it , but you cut him short by saying it was hilarious that he expected you to answer.

I never could understand these various lawsuits among the Supremes. How nice it would have been if you shared with us what you found in the court records.

Why even bring it up and you don't back it up?

[marv2]

You don't have the Court documents; you never can back up 80% of what you say. All just blustery BS.

Oh I have the documents! [[You'd be surprised at who all was named in the action.....). You sound like an immature child on the playground upset because the others won't share their toys with you, so you throw a tantrum and say things like their toys are nothing but junk anyway.....

For years I've watch you say all kinds of untrue things about me on here. Most of the time I cry with laughter at your audacity to pretend you know anything about me at all. You don't know me remember?

[jobeterob]

Oh I have the documents! [[You'd be surprised at who all was named in the action.....). You sound like an immature child on the playground upset because the others won't share their toys with you, so you throw a tantrum and say things like their toys are nothing but junk anyway.....

For years I've watch you say all kinds of untrue things about me on here. Most of the time I cry with laughter at your audacity to pretend you know anything about me at all. You don't know me remember?

So, show us that you are the dude with the documents, impress us, and we will be impressed...............POST THE DOCUMENTS and skip the Milven directed rhetoric!

[marv2]

So, show us that you are the dude with the documents, impress us, and we will be impressed...............POST THE DOCUMENTS and skip the Milven directed rhetoric!

If you only knew how very little respect I have for you, you would be embarassed to think that I would in any way , shape or form want to impress YOU? LOL!!!! You're killin' me here, hehehehehehehe..........

[skooldem1]

I don't think it is impossible for someone to have these documents. I remember seeing them myself on the net a few years ago.

[jobeterob]

Court documents are generally available for a fee from the Courthouse where the filing occurred.

Marv just doesn't have them, as we all expected.

[smark21]

Marv, you are just like the most conservative Republicans ~ locked into archaic views and forced into stupid positions by rigid ideas unsupported by facts.

It is fairly clear Scherrie and Lynda have nothing to do with these misleading CDs that were not of very good quality and which did not sell much at all. Let it go and let them go. The real problem is not that Mary Wilson lost some gigs and money and CD sales to the FLOS, the real problem is that she did not have a successful solo career, nor did she even have one hit on her own. Bitching about Scherrie and Lynda and every other potential minute issue doesn't fix it. If Diana Ross has no issue with them singing HER songs, Mary shouldn't either. In the past Mary just had a problem with EVERYTHING; but even she gave it up.

You don't have the Court documents; you never can back up 80% of what you say. All just blustery BS.

Well those songs aren’t Diana’s either. She didn’t write them [[other than co writing credits on Work That Body and a couple of others) and I doubt she owns the publishing rights. So it’s incorrect to say the Supremes hits are “her songs”.

[smark21]

What do you think about the fact that the acronym [[FLOS) is obviously playing on the name of arguably the most famous of former Supremes, Florence Ballard? Do you think that's intentional or just a coincidence? Either way, is it amusing or in bad taste? I find it a bit of both but imagine it gets missed by a lot of people anyway. I skimmed the above posts and didn't see this mentioned but may have missed it...

Shantal Baker, not Florence Ballard, is the most famous former Supreme.

[ejluther]

LOL, smark21!

[marv2]

Well those songs aren’t Diana’s either. She didn’t write them [[other than co writing credits on Work That Body and a couple of others) and I doubt she owns the publishing rights. So it’s incorrect to say the Supremes hits are “her songs”.

None of those songs are Diana Ross'. He is clearly delusional.......

[supremester]

Sorry, Marv, you are incorrect here all over the place. First, Florence didn't "found" the group. Milton Jenkins did. He asked Flo to join the group he was forming and to bring anyone she thought would fit. Second: Flo wasn't "forbidden" to say she was a Supreme - Flo AGREED not to bill herself professionally as a former Supreme. She chose that billing decision for a cash payment. It's sad she had such stupid, greedy people around her, but no one held a gun to her head to agree to those silly terms or to sign with ABC without a clear plan. She was my very own dear, sweet Flo and no one loved her as much as me but she wasn't the sharpest knife in the drawer. Not sharp enough to see her post Supremes career, not sharp enough to get a real manager, not sharp enough to found a group nor sharp enough, I don't think, to recognize who stood to gain if she left The Supremes. I do not mind the moniker "The Flos" - it seems like kind of a tribute to the great Florence Ballard. I don't know a single person who saw them live that wasn't knocked out by her.
I think it is sadly ironic and in very poor taste in light of the fact that Florence Ballard founded the group but was forbidden to say that she was a Supreme.

[marv2]

Sorry, Marv, you are incorrect here all over the place. First, Florence didn't "found" the group. Milton Jenkins did. He asked Flo to join the group he was forming and to bring anyone she thought would fit. Second: Flo wasn't "forbidden" to say she was a Supreme - Flo AGREED not to bill herself professionally as a former Supreme. She chose that billing decision for a cash payment. It's sad she had such stupid, greedy people around her, but no one held a gun to her head to agree to those silly terms or to sign with ABC without a clear plan. She was my very own dear, sweet Flo and no one loved her as much as me but she wasn't the sharpest knife in the drawer. Not sharp enough to see her post Supremes career, not sharp enough to get a real manager, not sharp enough to found a group nor sharp enough, I don't think, to recognize who stood to gain if she left The Supremes. I do not mind the moniker "The Flos" - it seems like kind of a tribute to the great Florence Ballard. I don't know a single person who saw them live that wasn't knocked out by her.

Nah, you are wrong and I'm going to tell you! Milton Jenkins was hanging around trying to get at Maxine Ballard [[Florence's sister). He heard Florence singing. He told her he had a group of guys that sang and would like to have a girl group as well to manage. He asked Flo if she could put together some girls for him. She agreed. That is how she got the idea that she was the "leader". She told Mary Wilson, who told this new bugged eyed girl from across the street named Diane Ross. Diane's daddy said NO, and wanted to doo-doo all over Diane's hopes of being in a group. In steps Paul Williams at Mary's & Diane's insistance to have a talk with good ole Fred aka "Mr. Ross". Paul was dating this hot chick named Betty.......so naturally he wanted her included in the group that became the Primettes. That's how it happened! Florence started that group as a favor for her sister's boyfriend and because she wanted to sing in a group herself.

Florence was forbidden to call herself or refer to her prior membership in the Supremes singing group by a legal document forced on her at her seperation meeting from Motown Records. It had nothing to do with Flo being stupid, greedy people around her or elves that stole from her stocking. That is all Diana Ross fans bullshit that people like you keep repeating over and over. That will never make it the truth!

Florence was a young woman vs a corporation that had quite a bit of power at the time. They treated her so badly that she just wanted to get away from them........clean!

You are lying about the part about Florence choosing or agreeing to not ever billing herself as a former Supreme for a cash settlement. In fact, she had no say so , or bargaining with Motown over her seperation settlement clauses and restrictions. Michael Roshkind showed up at Northland with the final documents already in hand which was the first time Florence Ballard even heard about Motown's restrictions on her. It broke her heart. Further proof that she did not "agree" to not being able to say she was ever in the Supremes is in the 1971 lawsuit she filed against Berry, Motown and the Supremes. In it, she requested that THEY not be able to use the name! Now those are the facts.

You may now continue bullshitting the uninformed or novice members of this forum now ......... Just know that there is someone here watching that knows the truth and the facts. You, Supremester really should be paying me for all of this free education I am giving you.

[skooldem1]

I'm just going to repost what I wrote on 1-12-2013.

01-12-2013, 12:05 PM #5 skooldem1

Dreamgirl pg. 30

She [[Flo) had been approached by a member of a male vocal trio called the Primes and their manager, Milton Jenkins, about forming a "sister" group to perform with his clients. Two other girls had already been recruited.

pg. 32

Up in Milton's room- a bachelor suite he shared with the Primes- I was one of four nervous young girls. There was me; Flo; Paul Williams girlfriend, Betty McGlown, a tall, pretty, dark-skinned girl who seemed a little older; and a fourth girl, about my age, with large, luminous brown eyes- my new friend Diane Ross.

The Primettes were never Flos' group. She was asked to be in it and help fill out the roster- So she invited Mary. As Mary says in her book, 2 other girls had already been chosen.

************************************************** *************

After reading this again, I have to add what I left out, and what may be the most important evidence.

On pg. 30 of "Dreamgirl"

"She grabbed my arm and asked excitedly. "Mary, do you want to be in a singing group with me AND TWO OTHER GIRLS"

It appears that Mary was the last girl to be invited to this group. Florence and the other girls had already been recruited. Diana may have been the last one to get the permission from her parents/her dad to actually join, but she certainly wasn't the last one to get invited.

[marv2]

I'm just going to repost what I wrote on 1-12-2013.

01-12-2013, 12:05 PM #5 skooldem1

Dreamgirl pg. 30

She [[Flo) had been approached by a member of a male vocal trio called the Primes and their manager, Milton Jenkins, about forming a "sister" group to perform with his clients. Two other girls had already been recruited.

Mary Wilson was not there the day Milton Jenkins was over at the Ballards house!

pg. 32

Up in Milton's room- a bachelor suite he shared with the Primes- I was one of four nervous young girls. There was me; Flo; Paul Williams girlfriend, Betty McGlown, a tall, pretty, dark-skinned girl who seemed a little older; and a fourth girl, about my age, with large, luminous brown eyes- my new friend Diane Ross.

Mary is right about this. She describes Diane as her new friend because she was the one that ask Diane to join them in the group to begin with. [

The Primettes were never Flos' group. She was asked to be in it and help fill out the roster- So she invited Mary. As Mary says in her book, 2 other girls had already been chosen.

[I don't know if these are your comments or someone elses. They are certainly not those of Mary Wilson's.
************************************************** *************

After reading this again, I have to add what I left out, and what may be the most important evidence.

On pg. 30 of "Dreamgirl"

"She grabbed my arm and asked excitedly. "Mary, do you want to be in a singing group with me AND TWO OTHER GIRLS"[/I]


This is not true nor accurate!


It appears that Mary was the last girl to be invited to this group. Florence and the other girls had already been recruited. Diana may have been the last one to get the permission from her parents/her dad to actually join, but she certainly wasn't the last one to get invited.

Poor summation. Mary Wilson was NOT the last girl chosen to be in the Primettes. She was second after Florence who recruited her. Right after Flo asked Mary if she was interested, Mary went and asked her mother, Miss Johnnie Mae if she could be in Flo's group, the Primettes. To which Mrs. Wilson responded "What is a Primate?"! LOL![I]

My comments to this post follow directly below those posted by Skooldem in each instance where I made clarifications.



[B]

[skooldem1]

In the words of Mary Wilson:

"She grabbed my arm and asked excitedly. "Mary, do you want to be in a singing group with me AND TWO OTHER GIRLS"

[supremester]

Nah, you are wrong and I'm going to tell you! Milton Jenkins was hanging around trying to get at Maxine Ballard [[Florence's sister). He heard Florence singing. He told her he had a group of guys that sang and would like to have a girl group as well to manage. He asked Flo if she could put together some girls for him. She agreed. That is how she got the idea that she was the "leader". She told Mary Wilson, who told this new bugged eyed girl from across the street named Diane Ross. Mary, in Dreamgirl and interviews has stated Diana Ross was AT the first meeting and that's how they officially met. In either case, had Milton Jenkins not wanted to bone a Ballard, there would have been a group called The Primettes only Mary & Flo may not have been involved. Mary didn't invite nobody. Diane's daddy said NO, and wanted to doo-doo all over Diane's hopes of being in a group. In steps Paul Williams at Mary's & Diane's insistance to have a talk with good ole Fred aka "Mr. Ross". Paul was dating this hot chick named Betty.......so naturally he wanted her included in the group that became the Primettes. That's how it happened! Florence started that group as a favor for her sister's boyfriend and because she wanted to sing in a group herself. The bug eyed girl got them looking sharp, dedicated to rehearsal, the audition and the contract.

Florence was forbidden to call herself or refer to her prior membership in the Supremes singing group by a legal document forced on her at her seperation meeting from Motown Records. It had nothing to do with Flo being stupid, greedy people around her or elves that stole from her stocking. That is all Diana Ross fans bullshit that people like you keep repeating over and over. That will never make it the truth! Dear, Florence hired an attorney. That attorney made a deal with Motown. That deal included money coming to Florence and agreements. One of those agreements was that Flo not bill herself professionally as a former Supreme. She, through her attorney, for a cash payment, agreed. She also agreed to sign away all future royalties. She was not forced by anyone to do this. It was a stupid, short-sighted agreement to get a big payment up front that the attorney could run off with and that's what happened.

Florence was a young woman vs a corporation that had quite a bit of power at the time. They treated her so badly that she just wanted to get away from them........clean!
It's clear that Flo wanted to get away clean, and that she did. It's not Motown's fault that she "just wanted to get away."
You are lying about the part about Florence choosing or agreeing to not ever billing herself as a former Supreme for a cash settlement. In fact, she had no say so , or bargaining with Motown over her seperation settlement clauses and restrictions. Michael Roshkind showed up at Northland with the final documents already in hand which was the first time Florence Ballard even heard about Motown's restrictions on her. It broke her heart. Mike Roshkind can show up with anything but it doesn't mean Flo had to agree to it. That document likely was created through negotiating with Flo's legal team. Legal documents never just fall from the sky - this was an AGREEMENT and as such, was AGREED to. Flo HAD power. She could have gone to the press. No one knew what she would do. I'm not lying about anything and I never do. YOU are the one with a Liar's Credentials. Shall I list them lies you've told here, MWOS, Youtube and elsewhere? Let's not call names as I love you very, very much . Further proof that she did not "agree" to not being able to say she was ever in the Supremes is in the 1971 lawsuit she filed against Berry, Motown and the Supremes. In it, she requested that THEY not be able to use the name! That makes no sense at all.........like less than none, but interesting. The fact that Flo sued doesn't make it real and, it was all thrown out anyway. Now those are the facts.

You may now continue bullshitting the uninformed or novice members of this forum now ......... Just know that there is someone here watching that knows the truth and the facts. You, Supremester really should be paying me for all of this free education I am giving you. Isn't my undying love enough - you want money, too? How about you come over and I'll cook dinner for just you and me?

[marv2]

In the words of Mary Wilson:

"She grabbed my arm and asked excitedly. "Mary, do you want to be in a singing group with me AND TWO OTHER GIRLS"

She's never repeated THAT version again........anywhere! She has always said that after that Jr. HS. talent show that Flo and she agreed that if anyone were to form a group to remember the other one. In this case it was Florence who was forming a group to be managed by Milton Jenkins. In countless interviews about that event, Mary has ALWAYS stated that after Florence was asked if she knew any girls that sang, her response was " Yeah! My new best friend Mary Wilson!" The order in which each girl came into Florence's group was: 1) Florence Ballard [[who recruited) 2). Mary Wilson [[who recruited) 3). Diane Ross. It has always been unclear as to when Betty McGlown was asked by Paul Williams. I wished that she were living to tell her story. I would even go and ask her cousin Pete, but he has since passed away as well.

[skooldem1]

In the words of Mary Wilson:

"She grabbed my arm and asked excitedly. "Mary, do you want to be in a singing group with me AND TWO OTHER GIRLS"

[Roberta75]

Isn't my undying love enough - you want money, too? How about you come over and I'll cook dinner for just you and me?

Careful Supremester you gonna make Luke real real jealous. hehehehehehehehehehehe

[supremester]

Mary was last and everyone knows it. So what? What has that got to do with anything? They all were there from day 1. Had Mary invited Miss Ross, she would certainly have described it in her book. She did not. Do you recall when, in MWOS that you said Mary got her Hollywood Palace because she "put her foot down and demanded it?" Then that morphed into "the assistant director wanted it"??? Then, when a member went to Mary who said it was hogwash, you screamed at them and kicked them out and they emailed members privately? I think this is one of those times where, certainly you feel strongly about something, but the facts are elsewhere.

[rod_rick]

In the words of Mary Wilson:

"She grabbed my arm and asked excitedly. "Mary, do you want to be in a singing group with me AND TWO OTHER GIRLS"

Not trying to get into a heated debate, but Florence already have the other two girls for the group or was she asking Mary join a group that would consist of herself and two other girls? Just asking because the four member group may have been the number of girls in the group but they may not have been selected when Flo approached Mary. Again, just asking if it is documented or assumed.

[marv2]

Mary was last and everyone knows it. So what? What has that got to do with anything? They all were there from day 1. Had Mary invited Miss Ross, she would certainly have described it in her book. She did not. Do you recall when, in MWOS that you said Mary got her Hollywood Palace because she "put her foot down and demanded it?" Then that morphed into "the assistant director wanted it"??? Then, when a member went to Mary who said it was hogwash, you screamed at them and kicked them out and they emailed members privately? I think this is one of those times where, certainly you feel strongly about something, but the facts are elsewhere.


That's all lies completely [[not to mention way off the subject here.....)

Mary doesn't even remember doing the Hollywood Palace and she doesn't use words like "hogwash"! Trust me........LOL!

[marv2]

Not trying to get into a heated debate, but Florence already have the other two girls for the group or was she asking Mary join a group that would consist of herself and two other girls? Just asking because the four member group may have been the number of girls in the group but they may not have been selected when Flo approached Mary. Again, just asking if it is documented or assumed.

Rod_rick, there were no two other girls when Florence approached Mary about forming a group. That was impossible since we know that Florence had never even met Diane Ross until Mary Wilson introduced her to Ross. The way the group was formed is how I broke it down in my earlier post above. When Flo was first asked by Milton to start a group, the first person she went to was Mary Wilson from school. Milton had not chosen any other girls either at that point which is why he asked Flo to do it one day on her family's front porch!

[skooldem1]

Dreamgirl pg. 30

She [[Flo) had been approached by a member of a male vocal trio called the Primes and their manager, Milton Jenkins, about forming a "sister" group to perform with his clients. Two other girls had already been recruited.

pg. 30

"She grabbed my arm and asked excitedly. "Mary, do you want to be in a singing group with me AND TWO OTHER GIRLS"

pg. 32

Up in Milton's room- a bachelor suite he shared with the Primes- I was one of four nervous young girls. There was me; Flo; Paul Williams girlfriend, Betty McGlown, a tall, pretty, dark-skinned girl who seemed a little older; and a fourth girl, about my age, with large, luminous brown eyes- my new friend Diane Ross.

[jobeterob]

Whenever Marv says you are lieing, it tends to mean "you got him", he's screwed again.

I'm going with Skooldem, Rod, Supremester, Roberta and all the sane guys.

Marv, they are freakin quoting she who's skirt you live up! Bend over buddy and take it like a man. It won't hurt.

You're busted. Um, Again.

[marv2]

Whenever Marv says you are lieing, it tends to me "you got him", he's screwed again.

I'm going with Skooldem, Rod, Supremester, Roberta and all the sane guys.

Marv, they are freakin quoting she who's skirt you live up! Bend over buddy and take it like a man. It won't hurt.

You're busted. Um, Again.

Jobeterob, go on back to sleep! You know so little about ANYTHING, to post so much on this forum it is embarrassing ! LOL!

[smark21]

Changing subjects from the oh-so-fascinating debate over which girl was the last one to join the Primettes—were the individual members of the Supremes that well known in 1967 if it was catastrophic for Flo’s solo career not to bill herself or refer to herself as a Supreme?

[marv2]

Changing subjects from the oh-so-fascinating debate over which girl was the last one to join the Primettes—were the individual members of the Supremes that well known in 1967 if it was catastrophic for Flo’s solo career not to bill herself or refer to herself as a Supreme?

Smark, YES! The individual members of the Supremes were very well known to the public by 1967. That myth that no one ever realized that it was Cindy Birdsong standing in for Florence at the Hollywood Bowl was way overblown! They had Cindy made up to look like Flo as much as possible [[check out the pics if you ever come across some from that show.)

The Supremes were still red hot in 1967.....probably the most famous American singing group. Using the fact that she was one of the Supremes could do nothing but help Florence's solo career. It would have hurt Motown if too many questions were asked as to why she was no longer with the group however...........

[marv2]

Dreamgirl pg. 30

She [[Flo) had been approached by a member of a male vocal trio called the Primes and their manager, Milton Jenkins, about forming a "sister" group to perform with his clients. Two other girls had already been recruited.

pg. 30

"She grabbed my arm and asked excitedly. "Mary, do you want to be in a singing group with me AND TWO OTHER GIRLS"

pg. 32

Up in Milton's room- a bachelor suite he shared with the Primes- I was one of four nervous young girls. There was me; Flo; Paul Williams girlfriend, Betty McGlown, a tall, pretty, dark-skinned girl who seemed a little older; and a fourth girl, about my age, with large, luminous brown eyes- my new friend Diane Ross.

Skooldem, you should know that you can repeat this a 1000 times, it will not turn it into the truth! LOL!

[skooldem1]

Those are Mary's words. Was she lying?

[milven]

Those are Mary's words. Was she lying?

;)

;)

;)

[marv2]

Those are Mary's words. Was she lying?


They maybe hers or her co-writer's words. Was she lying, of course not. She just was not remembering it right. If you have the time ,research all of the articles and interviews about this subject Mary has done over the years and you will find her saying exactly what I was saying above. Also, if you knew what all was involved in putting together her wonderful book, you would be beyond amazed! I cannot even touch that subject here or elsewhere, hehehehehehehe........!

[jobeterob]

They maybe hers or her co-writer's words. Was she lying, of course not. She just was not remembering it right. If you have the time ,research all of the articles and interviews about this subject Mary has done over the years and you will find her saying exactly what I was saying above. Also, if you knew what all was involved in putting together her wonderful book, you would be beyond amazed! I cannot even touch that subject here or elsewhere, hehehehehehehe........!

Busted again Marv. Bend over and take it like a man! Can you do the "hehehehe" while bent over? That's for real real then.

[Roberta75]

Those are Mary's words. Was she lying?

Oh oh oh oh oh. Po old marv getting one heckova shellacking tonight.

[marv2]

Busted again Marv. Bend over and take it like a man! Can you do the "hehehehe" while bent over? That's for real real then.

Sour grapes huh Jobeterob? Don't be so bitter, you could learn something about Motown. Stick with me kid, I'll try my best to teach you something so you don't have to go around these forums dumb about everything.................

[marv2]

Oh oh oh oh oh. Po old marv getting one heckova shellacking tonight.

Jonc, shouldn't you be somewhere around this time thumping your Bible or mocking God or Martha Reeves?

[marv2]

Hey Jobeterob, since you can never bear believing anything I have to say, maybe you will believe your idol, Miss Ross here! LOL! check her out beginning at around the 1:16 mark in this video clip:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDKYRR3mBlY

[Roberta75]

Jonc, shouldn't you be somewhere around this time thumping your Bible or mocking God or Martha Reeves?

i don't mock Martha reeves DetroitLive313 however your homophobic attacks at YouTube and you going around saying that Diane Ross killed Florence Ballard is gonna get you into a mess of trouble.

[jobeterob]

It was a pounding. He's wanted it for a long time.

[skooldem1]

In that interview Diana did, she didn't go into specifics. She explained the journey in more detail in her book. You alluded to the specifics she left out in your earlier post. Diana had already been singing as a Primette. In her words, she says that her "only obstacle was Daddy". In her book she says that "two guys from the Primes" came over to speak to her parents. Her mother gave in. Her father didn't give in so easily. I'm sure at that point, she had her "girlfriends" Mary and Flo come and ask if she could be in the group. The thing is she was already in the group. She was just trying to get the OK from her parents. You don't really think that she asked her parents if she could meet up at this mans apartment did you? She was determined to be a singer and had already charted out her course. She did that first. She just needed her parents approval to officially join. I have no doubt that Mary and Flo had to come over and ask her parents. That is how teens do things.

[marv2]

In that interview Diana did, she didn't go into specifics. She explained the journey in more detail in her book. You alluded to the specifics she left out in your earlier post. Diana had already been singing as a Primette. In her words, she says that her "only obstacle was Daddy". In her book she says that "two guys from the Primes" came over to speak to her parents. Her mother gave in. Her father didn't give in so easily. I'm sure at that point, she had her "girlfriends" Mary and Flo come and ask if she could be in the group. The thing is she was already in the group. She was just trying to get the OK from her parents.

She was in the group because Mary Wilson invited her to join the group! In Diane's book, did she also mention that her daddy tried to get them to replace her with her sister Barbara? Yeah, old man Fred knew his daughters extremely well. He made the comment that "Diane does not have a group mentality........you should take my daughter Barbara instead". I can imagine [[because I don't know, and I have no way of knowing....) that at that moment, Diana Ross must have hated her father's guts! LOL! Knowing how competitive she was and all.................

[Roberta75]

Hey Jobeterob, since you can never bear believing anything I have to say, maybe you will believe your idol, Miss Ross here! LOL! check her out beginning at around the 1:16 mark in this video clip:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDKYRR3mBlY

Wow you have either no shame or you lost your mind marv2. you post the above clip of Diane Ross in the actors studio and right in the comments section theres this disgusting comment by you DetroitLives313 on january 1st of this year.

DetroitLives313 [[http://www.youtube.com/user/DetroitLives313) 9 months ago [[http://www.youtube.com/comment?lc=3i-hWCmE6uF7Mh0R4xMVuYS_FACSgGUt8Up-WTsFS90)
Ain't that a bitch? You big flaming Dianah Ross fan and you are calling me a fag?  Go suck a New Year's dick somewhere you disease faggot! Sitting up here watching this drunk has been bitch....go get laid sissy punk!

· in reply to Charles Hater [[http://www.youtube.com/user/BrandyKluxKlan) [[Show the comment) [[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDKYRR3mBlY#)

Granted the other comments are equally reprehensable but hey you lay down with dogs and you end up with fleas.

Have you no self respect sir?

[supremester]

Miss Ross was secretly asked first. She sent Milton Jenkins over to Flo's house to help her self esteem while she stated home hunting rats with a bow and arrow. No, none of The Supremes' names were known to the general public at all. Miss Ross was slightly known but it didn't sink in until after the name change. Never were the names Mary Wilson, Florence Ballard or Cindy Birdsong household names. Remember that SFX got the highest name recognition out of Cindy and even that wasn't much. It would have helped if Flo could have billed herself as a former Supreme - but that didn't stop venues and labels of getting the word out on the sly like Mary used to do as Mary Wilson & The Supremes or The Flos' CDs going out with Ross' pic etc. No one knew Flo's name outside of the many many Supremes fans. When I saw her picture sleeve for Love Aint Love by Florence "Flo" Ballard at what is now Macy's, I thought maybe she'd hit until I heard the record. What did Flo in was her chauffeur for a manager, ABC having zero creative direction for her and Flo providing horrendous vocals. Anyone hearing her CD knows that by 1969 - her style of voice was never, ever gonna hit. I laugh at people who try to make her a victim of Motown when she did herself in. All Motown did was discover her ass, groom her, train her and make her a star. How she became a victim is beyond me - but I adored her. She was never gonna be a solo star and that's why no one signed her - billing had nothing to do with it.
Changing subjects from the oh-so-fascinating debate over which girl was the last one to join the Primettes—were the individual members of the Supremes that well known in 1967 if it was catastrophic for Flo’s solo career not to bill herself or refer to herself as a Supreme?

[supremester]

Of course in that interview she says nothing about who first approached her and those comments by Marv - as rotten as they are, are not the worst I've seen from him - not by a long shot. Of course, often the most vocal anti - gay haters are really just trying to cover things up - maybe Marv has a wide stance as well. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL hehehehehehehehe. I have a friend who sends these quotes to Mary - I'll fwd this to him.......
Wow you have either no shame or you lost your mind marv2. you post the above clip of Diane Ross in the actors studio and right in the comments section theres this disgusting comment by you DetroitLives313 on january 1st of this year.

DetroitLives313 [[http://www.youtube.com/user/DetroitLives313) 9 months ago [[http://www.youtube.com/comment?lc=3i-hWCmE6uF7Mh0R4xMVuYS_FACSgGUt8Up-WTsFS90)
Ain't that a bitch? You big flaming Dianah Ross fan and you are calling me a fag?  Go suck a New Year's dick somewhere you disease faggot! Sitting up here watching this drunk has been bitch....go get laid sissy punk!

· in reply to Charles Hater [[http://www.youtube.com/user/BrandyKluxKlan) [[Show the comment) [[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDKYRR3mBlY#)

Granted the other comments are equally reprehensable but hey you lay down with dogs and you end up with fleas.

Have you no self respect sir?

[Roberta75]

Of course in that interview she says nothing about who first approached her and those comments by Marv - as rotten as they are, are not the worst I've seen from him - not by a long shot. Of course, often the most vocal anti - gay haters are really just trying to cover things up - maybe Marv has a wide stance as well. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL hehehehehehehehe. I have a friend who sends these quotes to Mary - I'll fwd this to him.......

Oh Ive been sent many of marv2 or DetroitLives313 homophobic comments for the past few months by a member here but this clip that marv actually post here was the first time i had seen his hate in the comment section of a video clip and those other people are disgusting as well. Such hate and filth and bigotry. I never seen anything like it. Real real sad that there are so many bigots in this world and real sad that marv2 is that anti gay. I thought the world had evolve but im shm just smh at it all.

Please dont send marvs comments to Mary Wilson Supremester. Miss wilson dont need to read all that hate could make her real upset. Miss Wilson love her gay fans and has many good homosexual gentlemen friends. Please dint send them to Miss Wilson.

What do you mean 'has a wide stance as well' Supremester? Im real confused?

Fondly,

Roberta

[supremester]

Hi Roberta, yes, there are still some haters out there - but most of those are dying off and mostly only those with mild to severe mental disorders continue their narrow, focused hatred. Often these people have anger issues from being picked on as a child, a lifetime of being overlooked for praise or promotion resulting in jealousy, anger and rage against those they want to feel superior to in order to prove to themselves they have value. It's sad. Especially annoying are those who belong to an oppressed minority themselves and treat others exactly as they loathe to be treated. to me, that is the lowest form of humanity there is. Marv should move to Idaho where bigotry is often applauded but, because of his minority status, they'd run his ass out on a rail pronto. The wide stance reference is to severely anti-gay Republican Senator Larry Craig who was arrested for soliciting sex in a public men's room at MSP. I checked out the restroom - it was clearly designed for exactly this purpose. Anyway, I was just saying perhaps there is a reason for Marv's strong "comments." See: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Wide%20Stance. Most TTG's use whatever form necessary to advance their cause [[usually their self-image.) They may lack stature in social situations and seek artificial means of aggrandizement. They are the type who might cheat at cards or monopoly because they can't hide behind a keyboard to gain acceptance or be looked up to. It's all too bad, because I love Marv. As one of God's creatures, he has value and worth. He adds a lot to this and other forums, but can't stick to the truth if it's a POV that isn't rooted in fact that he's trying to sell. See: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=telephone%20toughguy As far as Mary goes, it seems she has requested to be kept informed of these things - maybe she will try to talk to him again. The last time, he bragged in MWOS that it's anti American to stifle freedom of speech and he has the right to trash talk anyone he chooses. Yes, he replied with The Bill Of Rights. Now THAT'S an American! hehehehehe!

[smark21]

Smark, YES! The individual members of the Supremes were very well known to the public by 1967. That myth that no one ever realized that it was Cindy Birdsong standing in for Florence at the Hollywood Bowl was way overblown! They had Cindy made up to look like Flo as much as possible [[check out the pics if you ever come across some from that show.)

The Supremes were still red hot in 1967.....probably the most famous American singing group. Using the fact that she was one of the Supremes could do nothing but help Florence's solo career. It would have hurt Motown if too many questions were asked as to why she was no longer with the group however...........

So if Flo were as well known as you say she was in 67 and 68, then not being able to use the Supremes name to promote herself should have been at most a minor annoyance. As for the SFX poll, they asked the wrong question. Instead of asking for name identification, they should have asked, would you attend a Supremes reunion concert in which Diana Ross performed with the ladies she sang with in the 60s or with women who were in the group after Ross went solo. SFX was guilty of shoddy market research.

[jobeterob]

I assume Karen Ragland's counterclaim against Mary Wilson for interference with her business activities never proceeded because there are no reports of it.

[marv2]

So if Flo were as well known as you say she was in 67 and 68, then not being able to use the Supremes name to promote herself should have been at most a minor annoyance. As for the SFX poll, they asked the wrong question. Instead of asking for name identification, they should have asked, would you attend a Supremes reunion concert in which Diana Ross performed with the ladies she sang with in the 60s or with women who were in the group after Ross went solo. SFX was guilty of shoddy market research.

It was a bit more than a minor annoyance. Look at it this way. Up to that point, being the founding member of the most successful American musical act was Florence's greatest accomplishment. Not being able to promote that fact was like starting over for her in some instances. She had all her number one records with the group and unless she was going to go out and have songs written and produced for her by the same people that made her a star...........she was starting over from scratch with just her name and not the use of the name of the entity that brought her to stardom! Does that make a little more sense?

SFX and the "survey" they did was a joke from the word go! They claimed that no one knew who Mary Wilson was, but then right after they announce that RTL Tour would proceed without her........every major news outlet in the country went after Mary for her comments about the situation. She was on TV and radio non - stop during that period. The could never happen if no one knew who she was!

[Roberta75]

It was a bit more than a minor annoyance. Look at it this way. Up to that point, being the founding member of the most successful American musical act was Florence's greatest accomplishment. Not being able to promote that fact was like starting over for her in some instances. She had all her number one records with the group and unless she was going to go out and have songs written and produced for her by the same people that made her a star...........she was starting over from scratch with just her name and not the use of the name of the entity that brought her to stardom! Does that make a little more sense?

Your disgusting comments as DetroitLives313 on this YouTube clip that you posted last night are not a minor annoyance but a major offensive annoyance to lesbian ladies and homosexual gentlemen everywhere. Why do you write such hurtful things marv2 and why did you share the clip that have the bigoted comments? You need to stop the attacks in this forum and on youtube marv2 it isnt right and its real offensive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDKYRR3mBlY

Roberta

[jobeterob]

Smark has hit on another truth you don't like; Flo, Mary, Cindy ~ they all had limited name recognition, no voice recognition. Sad but true.

Things seem different these days; Kelly Rowland has maintained some consistent success coming out of a hit group.

[willtomb]

if they where ever supremes then they can surely use the name..... another example of the talentless mary Wilson trying to screw someone over.. coz she cant sing and make money

[blueskies]

Oh Jesus.............I'm running for the hills!

[Roberta75]

if they where ever supremes then they can surely use the name..... another example of the talentless mary Wilson trying to screw someone over.. coz she cant sing and make money

You have no class whatsoever.

Roberta

[midnightman]

Wow... all this time I thought Milton had simply asked Flo to recruit some girls, according to Mary, if this is correct, Diana and Betty were the "two other girls". But yeah, Florence never founded the group, Milton Jenkins started to put the pieces together in the group that eventually became the Supremes. It's quite foolish to state something when Mary stated something else in her book.

[stephanie]

LOL!!!! I had a hard time believing that SFX came back with more people knowing Cindy Birdsong over Mary Wilson. Maybe Cindys name is more memorable [[her last name that is) and if they didnt know who Mary was how did she gain so much power if you will in getting people not to come to the tour even if she was on TV? I always thought from what I read and saw on the news the public knew Wilson and Birdsong.

[detmotownguy]

Marv I was living in Detroit at the time and there was much support for Mary. People were posting newspaper articles on the outside walls of their cubicles! A debacle caused by piss poor planning. A co-worker who is related to one member of the Motown hit making machine got wind of this early on and basically said he'd be surprised if this "thing would get off the ground and get to the first show because it is likely it won't last! I can email additional details. Let me know.

[marv2]

Marv I was living in Detroit at the time and there was much support for Mary. People were posting newspaper articles on the outside walls of their cubicles! A debacle caused by piss poor planning. A co-worker who is related to one member of the Motown hit making machine got wind of this early on and basically said he'd be surprised if this "thing would get off the ground and get to the first show because it is likely it won't last! I can email additional details. Let me know.

I know what you mean. In NYC the week following that big Grand Central Station press conference, it was like "Supremesmania featuring Mary Wilson" all over New York City Metro area. There were live radio call in shows just so that the public could express their displeasure about Mary and Cindy not being on that "reunion " tour. Mary was on the news every night it seemed.

[jobeterob]

I know what you mean. In NYC the week following that big Grand Central Station press conference, it was like "Supremesmania featuring Mary Wilson" all over New York City Metro area. There were live radio call in shows just so that the public could express their displeasure about Mary and Cindy not being on that "reunion " tour. Mary was on the news every night it seemed.

The bad thing is that she lost to Ragland and after being on the news every night, hasn't been heard from again and still is waiting for that elusive hit.

[supremester]

Because Mary lied about everything. She went to the press claiming that Scherrie & Lynda were fake Supremes - a far cry from the begging she did for fans to accept them in the 70's. Then she made up the lies about how much Diana was being paid and succeeded in convincing many that the seed money to produce the show was her pay, making it appear as if Ross was making over 10x what Mary & Cindy were. Anyone with a 3rd grade diploma could figure out that if Ross had been paid the 500k per show, plus Mary & Cindys 250k per show would make their salaries 750k in venues that, if sold out, could only gross 1,1-1.4 million and that was before all expenses to produce the show, operate it and then look for a profit. The press ran with the story and Mary, finally getting press again, wallowed in her fake self-pity after the train left the station. If Mary hadn't resorted to slander and ugly lies, RTL would have done well everywhere. Fast fwd to 2013: Miss Ross is happy as a clam working when she pleases. Mary - so popular that the public refused to see a show without her, failed to launch Sophisticated Ladies - twice, Lena Horne, Up Close, 18 attendees at her final Feinsteins gig, 41 at The Riviera in Vegas, and the permanent Vegas gigs she tried so hard to get are toast. Now her house is up for sale and she's needing work bad. The Chicago gig is a bust so far with almost zero tix sold, balconies shut for all performances, lowest ticket price moved to the main floor and second row seats available for every show. Look for discount seating VERY soon and a possible reduction in performances. THAT is Mary's true power. Without lies and treachery: none at all. If she had declined to tour with class and dignity and truthfulness, and the public stayed away, THAT would be power. LOL
LOL!!!! I had a hard time believing that SFX came back with more people knowing Cindy Birdsong over Mary Wilson. Maybe Cindys name is more memorable [[her last name that is) and if they didnt know who Mary was how did she gain so much power if you will in getting people not to come to the tour even if she was on TV? I always thought from what I read and saw on the news the public knew Wilson and Birdsong.

[jobeterob]

Because Mary lied about everything. She went to the press claiming that Scherrie & Lynda were fake Supremes - a far cry from the begging she did for fans to accept them in the 70's. Then she made up the lies about how much Diana was being paid and succeeded in convincing many that the seed money to produce the show was her pay, making it appear as if Ross was making over 10x what Mary & Cindy were. Anyone with a 3rd grade diploma could figure out that if Ross had been paid the 500k per show, plus Mary & Cindys 250k per show would make their salaries 750k in venues that, if sold out, could only gross 1,1-1.4 million and that was before all expenses to produce the show, operate it and then look for a profit. The press ran with the story and Mary, finally getting press again, wallowed in her fake self-pity after the train left the station. If Mary hadn't resorted to slander and ugly lies, RTL would have done well everywhere. Fast fwd to 2013: Miss Ross is happy as a clam working when she pleases. Mary - so popular that the public refused to see a show without her, failed to launch Sophisticated Ladies - twice, Lena Horne, Up Close, 18 attendees at her final Feinsteins gig, 41 at The Riviera in Vegas, and the permanent Vegas gigs she tried so hard to get are toast. Now her house is up for sale and she's needing work bad. The Chicago gig is a bust so far with almost zero tix sold, balconies shut for all performances, lowest ticket price moved to the main floor and second row seats available for every show. Look for discount seating VERY soon and a possible reduction in performances. THAT is Mary's true power. Without lies and treachery: none at all. If she had declined to tour with class and dignity and truthfulness, and the public stayed away, THAT would be power. LOL

Greg, how do you know the low number of people at her shows and the poor ticket sales in Chicago? Just wondering.

[milven]

Greg, how do you know the low number of people at her shows and the poor ticket sales in Chicago? Just wondering.

Roll the mouse over the back or balcony seats and you will see that none are available.

http://tickets.harristheaterchicago.org/tickets/reserve.aspx?performanceNumber=5804

Usually, that means that that section is closed to buying tickets. Of course if it were a 100% sold out show like KINKY BOOTS, then there would be a different conclusion.

Now roll over the orchrestra section and you will see loads of seats available in that section.

I think it is too soon to call this a failure. But I , too, can see the beginnings of tricks to fill the front seats. Close the back of theatre, offer discount codes [[which I think are already available); cut the number of performances; and , as a last resort, commision Berry Gordy to rip twenty dollar bills in half and give them to paasers by with the promise of giving the other half after they see Mary ;)

[skooldem1]

Tickets just went on sale. People are thinking about Halloween. As we get closer to the Thanksgiving and Christmas, I'm sure ticket sales will increase. More so than it being Mary Wilson that people want to see, people in general like a good "Holiday" show- regardless of who is on the bill. This engagement will do fine.

[Roberta75]

Tickets just went on sale. People are thinking about Halloween. As we get closer to the Thanksgiving and Christmas, I'm sure ticket sales will increase. More so than it being Mary Wilson that people want to see, people in general like a good "Holiday" show- regardless of who is on the bill. This engagement will do fine.

I hope so skooldem as I want this to be a real big hit for Mary Wilson and Duke Fakir. The only think i personally think could put folks of is the ticket prices. $132 dollar top ticket prices seem real high imo for one original Supreme and one original four top. That said I hope the shows do real well for Miss Wilson and Mr Fakir.

Roberta

[jobeterob]

Those tickets prices are too high.

[skooldem1]

I'm sure there will be "Holiday Discounts". Buy one get one free, free giveaways on the radio, and price slashes.

[mwmr]

I'll just add... And tbh I don't really care who on here chooses to believe me - I was with Mary in her dressing room whilst she was on the uk DITS tour with Martha and Edwin. She received a call and asked me to step outside. I did and was chatting to Martha. After a while Mary came out blissfully happy and told Martha and me that she had just been told terms had been reached and she was on the RTL tour. She was very happy and clearly it was a genuine offer/call.
[[spare me the bitching, sly digs, Mary bashing )

[mwmr]

Supremester.. Why do you have to be so nasty btw? Mary makes a decent living , still receives her royalties. Gets plenty of overseas tours, Australia and Russia in the last 12 months as well as a long European tour with Bill Whyman. Sure Mary doesn't play the same size venues as Miss Diane but people still pay to see her and still want to see her irregardless of your opinion.

[milven]

....Mary came out blissfully happy and told Martha and me that she had just been told terms had been reached and she was on the RTL tour. She was very happy and clearly it was a genuine offer/call.

This is interesting news. From all I read and heard on TV [[from Diana, Mary and others), I thought that none of the offers made to Mary was acceptable. But here was an offer that made Mary "blissfully happy". What happened to the offer? Did she have second thoughts and reject it? Did she wait too long to accept and then was told "that train left the station"

Something must have happened to the offer, because we all know that she was not part of the tour

[mwmr]

This is interesting news. From all I read and heard on TV [[from Diana, Mary and others), I thought that none of the offers made to Mary was acceptable. But here was an offer that made Mary "blissfully happy". What happened to the offer? Did she have second thoughts and reject it? Did she wait too long to accept and then was told "that train left the station"

Something must have happened to the offer, because we all know that she was not part of the tour

I genuinely don't know what happened. But there have been reports that Mary was offered 4 million and accepted and then the offer was withdrawn
i don't know any details of the offer I only know what I witnessed that night and how happy she was and also how thrilled Martha was for her too .
Sadly as we know it never happened

[jobeterob]

I genuinely don't know what happened. But there have been reports that Mary was offered 4 million and accepted and then the offer was withdrawn
i don't know any details of the offer I only know what I witnessed that night and how happy she was and also how thrilled Martha was for her too .
Sadly as we know it never happened

I believe all of that. Too bad it didn't happen.

If everyone phrased things in the manner mrmw does here, then people wouldn't feel nasty comments were being directed at Miss Wilson or Miss Ross.

There is a ringleader here who causes that negativity all the time; and it is very unnecessary.

I like how mrmw set out factually the tours and gigs Mary Wilson has played and matter of factly says, ya, they aren't as big as Diana's but Mary eats well and has a home etc. If only Marv could accept those facts.

[midnightman]

Interesting, mwmr. The way it was put out, you think she had decided not to accept the $4 million deal. Did she accept it too late? That's quite unfortunate though. It could've worked out if they probably had a different touring company. SFX was kinda shady.

[smark21]

Perhaps more tix for the holiday shows will sell as we get closer to the run. I do find it odd that it’s going to have a two week run in Chicago. IN NYC, Darlene Love and Ronnie Spector have been doing holiday shows for years now and they tend to do just a couple of gigs in the area, not a two week run. Perhaps Mary and Duke should have considered doing a holiday show or two in Chicago and another one or two in Detroit? Perhaps a show in Milwaukee as well?

However I’ll never get fans [[or anti-fans) closely monitoring ticket sales, ticket prices and section openings and closings for a show, especially if they don’t like the act. Gregg, I suggest you get ahold of the new Arcade Fire album Reflektor and stop worrying about Mary Wilson. Excellent album that combines the classic Arcade Fire anthem sound with LCD Soundsystem, Haitian rhythms, New Order, Young Americans era Bowie and a dash of Kraftwerk.

[supremester]

At the time I wrote that, I deduced it after a friend in Chicago asked if I could go with him and went to look at dates. I have work in Chicago every January and was hoping I could work them into the same visit. I wouldn't fly into Chicago just for that [[however, I am writing this from New Orleans to see Miss Ross' last until next year) on my way home from Palm Springs. Anyway, we are looking at seats and realized it was not selling at all. I prefer not to do this so early in January, so I don't want to change my plans if there will not be shows in January. Today, it was confirmed tickets are off to a very troublesome start. If anyone thinks this makes me happy, it does not. I've attended Mary's shows, paid, enjoyed her ballads and been perfectly well behaved as some on this list are quite aware. I don't wish her harm. I did at one time, but not for ages.
Greg, how do you know the low number of people at her shows and the poor ticket sales in Chicago? Just wondering.

[supremester]

I was responded to the comment about the power Mary had to end RTL. I'm merely pointing out a AAA battery has more power and the underhanded, dishonest ugly stories she used to try to further her cause. Power would have been this statement" I am not happy with the deal, so I've decided not to join the toiur but wish them well and hope everyone loves it." THEN, if it failed, power could be claimed. To call Captain Kamgaroo a child molester to hurt his show, is an ugly thing to do. I don't mean to come across as nasty. Everything I wrote is true. 100% no need for interpretation truth and was written in response to what others said. If I wanted to get nasty, I hardly scratched the surface of things I know. It's not my intention. You are correct that Mary gets to perform for fans as a support act, but she gets very very few "Mary Wilson In Concert" gigs and of those few, most are not exactly triumphs. In 2008 Rossers and WOWs [[Wacked Out Wilsonites) had a peace summit in SF to see Mary at The Razz Room. She drew impressive numbers for some shows in a very small venue. I felt it could be the beginning of a new, viable career and I found myself happy for her. I'm not inherently an asshole, and even forgot for a while she is my mortal enemy for causing Miss ross nothing but heartaches. Bottom Line: If you feel Mary is doing well, that's how you see it and it's all subjective. Others, viewing the information available, would disagree. Mary would be one of those. I maintain if she hadn't been such a dishonest, backstabbing, desperate 'Ho Bag for the last 3 decades, she'd be a lot better off right now and we'd have had visits from Diana Ross & The Supremes original '67 lineup. Her treachery and dishonesty caused trouble for my Miss Ross and to us to lose DMC reunions. Watch her "fill in " for Diane who she claims she thought had forgotten the words. Look at her in that clip singing Someday. Does she have even a shred of credibility as a good friend helping Diane to find the lyric? I'm just fed up with her BS, I guess. Who do you believe more: Mary, claiming she only sang Someday because she thought Diane had forgotten the words, or me claiming to list the "truths" about Mary's career only to enlighten those who may be unaware?
Supremester.. Why do you have to be so nasty btw? Mary makes a decent living , still receives her royalties. Gets plenty of overseas tours, Australia and Russia in the last 12 months as well as a long European tour with Bill Whyman. Sure Mary doesn't play the same size venues as Miss Diane but people still pay to see her and still want to see her irregardless of your opinion.

[mwmr]

. You are correct that Mary gets to perform for fans as a support act, but she gets very very few "Mary Wilson In Concert" gigs .

Mary has headlined her own tour here in the UK twice in the last 4 years at decent size venues that some of Englands top, and current, groups play.I will state that not all venues were full or sold out but clearly she is still considered a draw and viable as promoters are booking her for her own tours over here and the last one was 2 months long and NONE of the dates were cancelled. Thats a fact.


Who do you believe more: Mary, claiming she only sang Someday because she thought Diane had forgotten the words, or me claiming to list the "truths" about Mary's career only to enlighten those who may be unaware?

I actually belive Mary, having never met you and only being able to make a judgement on you based by your words on a forum.
Having met , and been lucky enough to spend time with her , numerous times over the years, I am not that naive to believe everything she says is gospel, neither am i that naive to believe that she doesnt manipulate situations to her own advantage.She was after all taught by a master - Mr Gordy..and Ms Diane has done the very same.

[jobeterob]

I actually belive Mary, having never met you and only being able to make a judgement on you based by your words on a forum.
Having met , and been lucky enough to spend time with her , numerous times over the years, I am not that naive to believe everything she says is gospel, neither am i that naive to believe that she doesnt manipulate situations to her own advantage.She was after all taught by a master - Mr Gordy..and Ms Diane has done the very same.'

Thanks for these posts mrmw. Marv needs to read them and take them to heart. But I'm sure he'll tell us he knows Mary much better than you.

[marybrewster]

I wish Mary's Holiday show was touring. I'd love to see it, but I'm not a big fan of travel in the winter. Still, might be worth it to see two Motown legends.

The ticket prices seem pretty ambitious; someone above posted $135.00 for a ticket? I assume that's the "high" end. Certainly there must be more reasonable tickets.

I wonder how the tickets break down. Obviously there are 4 members of the Four Tops; Mary usually tours with Parnell and Lucy. Plus you have a band. And you have to pay "the house". I'm not suggesting that everything is split evenly, but it doesn't seem to me that anyone is coming out of this a millionaire. It's nice to see acts perform for the pure enjoyment, for themselves and for the fans. Plus, it's the holidays!

[jobeterob]

Well, it will be nice even if gets downsized to a smaller portion of the house and a reduced number of shows. I'm sure many of us would go if we lived in the vicinity.

[supremester]

I hope one day we will meet - next time I'm in NYC I will let you know.......lunch is on ME. Well, I think if you look at Mary, in RED, hoping around paying no mind to Cindy or Miss Ross, you may think again about what her motivation was and why Smokey was sent out. I'm thrilled Mary is doing her own tour - when is it? I don't know where ver here" here, but she cannot get straight gigs in The US anymore that pay anything. As far as RTL goes, the phone call you were there for must be the 4 million dollar call that came with a deadline. If Mary was so happy to accept it, why didn't she let TNT or Cindy know about it? Cindy wanted to accept it immediately and Mary told her not to - "Let me handle it." Cindy, in her own words, is sorry she listened to her. Of course, your comment shoots holes in Mary's newest "it wasn't about the money - it was being left out of the planning...." AND her lies on 20/20 3 months later about the money amounts. Literally, she will just say ANYTHING. The thought is that Mary, full of power, waited until after the deadline just to show who is who. They had a week to accept. When the deadline passed, Plan 9 From Outer Drive was put into place. When Mary heard Scherrie & Lynda were going, she crapped her panties, panicked, and started throwing shade like no tomorrow. That's when the train had left the station - and poor Cindy had already tipped the porter! Miss Ross didn't bend. And I don't blame her. Her experiences with Mary for the prior 2 decades had been hideous full of erratic behavior and lies - told publicly for the sole purpose of hurting her. Motown 25, that crying jag outside of Spago [[because poor Turkessa wanted to eat THERE LOLOLOL) and all her other BS......I think Miss Ross thought this woman is NOT worth my time. And 13 years later, Miss Ross' iconic smile was reduced to an "I think I just stepped in something smile" at her Supremes Reunion at The Motown Musical - she posed for pictures for Berry and was gone in 5 minutes. I doubt that we will ever see her willingly in the same room with Mary ever again. Manipulating situations is one thing, unprofessionalism and character assassination is quite another. If you were in The UK during that tour - what do you think of Mary's quote in a UK paper "I'm not gonna let her kill me like she did Flo"???
I actually belive Mary, having never met you and only being able to make a judgement on you based by your words on a forum.
Having met , and been lucky enough to spend time with her , numerous times over the years, I am not that naive to believe everything she says is gospel, neither am i that naive to believe that she doesnt manipulate situations to her own advantage.She was after all taught by a master - Mr Gordy..and Ms Diane has done the very same.

[marybrewster]

Well, it will be nice even if gets downsized to a smaller portion of the house and a reduced number of shows. I'm sure many of us would go if we lived in the vicinity.

I think you're right. I don't know much about Chicago of the Harris [[?) Theatre. Sounds like an intimate venue. Perfect for a Christmas show.

I wonder if Mary and Duke will duet on "River Deep"? Or if Mary will sing "The Children's Christmas Song"? LOL! :)

[marybrewster]

Perhaps more tix for the holiday shows will sell as we get closer to the run. I do find it odd that it’s going to have a two week run in Chicago. IN NYC, Darlene Love and Ronnie Spector have been doing holiday shows for years now and they tend to do just a couple of gigs in the area, not a two week run. Perhaps Mary and Duke should have considered doing a holiday show or two in Chicago and another one or two in Detroit? Perhaps a show in Milwaukee as well?

I like your idea, smark. A couple of nights here, a couple of nights there. Being a "Christmas" show, time is of the essence. Mary and Duke could actually start their tour now, as we are getting into the holiday season.

[mwmr]

I hope one day we will meet - next time I'm in NYC I will let you know.......lunch is on ME. Well, I think if you look at Mary, in RED, hoping around paying no mind to Cindy or Miss Ross, you may think again about what her motivation was and why Smokey was sent out. I'm thrilled Mary is doing her own tour - when is it? I don't know where ver here" here, but she cannot get straight gigs in The US anymore that pay anything. As far as RTL goes, the phone call you were there for must be the 4 million dollar call that came with a deadline. If Mary was so happy to accept it, why didn't she let TNT or Cindy know about it? Cindy wanted to accept it immediately and Mary told her not to - "Let me handle it." Cindy, in her own words, is sorry she listened to her. Of course, your comment shoots holes in Mary's newest "it wasn't about the money - it was being left out of the planning...." AND her lies on 20/20 3 months later about the money amounts. Literally, she will just say ANYTHING. The thought is that Mary, full of power, waited until after the deadline just to show who is who. They had a week to accept. When the deadline passed, Plan 9 From Outer Drive was put into place. When Mary heard Scherrie & Lynda were going, she crapped her panties, panicked, and started throwing shade like no tomorrow. That's when the train had left the station - and poor Cindy had already tipped the porter! All Miss Ross had to do was bend over and take it. But Miss Ross doesn't bottom. And I don't blame her. Her experiences with Mary for the prior 2 decades had been hideous full of erratic behavior and lies - told publicly for the sole purpose of hurting her. Motown 25, that crying jag outside of Spago [[because poor Turkessa wanted to eat THERE LOLOLOL) and all her other BS......I think Miss Ross thought this woman is NOT worth my time. And 13 years later, Miss Ross' iconic smile was reduced to an "I think I just stepped in something smile" at her Supremes Reunion at The Motown Musical - she posed for pictures for Berry and was gone in 5 minutes. I doubt that we will ever see her willingly in the same room with Mary ever again. Manipulating situations is one thing, unprofessionalism and character assassination is quite another. If you were in The UK during that tour - what do you think of Mary's quote in a UK paper "I'm not gonna let her kill me like she did Flo"???

What do i think of that quote? I'll tell you my opinion I do believe Diane played a part in killing Flo actually.By stealing her dreams,crushing her spirit, allowing her role in the supremes to be reduced..and lets face it another fact is she was shagging the boss and thats always the way to get ahead.
You're entitled to your opinion, and to believe what you have been informed/read in whatever shape you decide, as am I , and every other poster on this forum.
I simply posted a fact of a situation i personally witnessed.

BTW I find your gay innuendos in this post, pointless, crass,unwarranted and offensive and as such I have reported the post for this.

I've been courteous and polite throughout this thread allowing you your opinion, and maybe you could have shown me the same courtesy.That's what spoils these forums for the majority of people.

Live Love Laugh

[supremester]

I'm sorry if gay innuendo offends you, I edited the post. It was not pointless, it made my point very clearly and it is very hypocritical of you to complain of sexual innuendo, then use it yourself. At least that's the way I see it. Or is it because mine was gay and yours was a mixed couple? Is it OK if it's a man and a woman? Let me know so I won't offend you in the future. Personally, I'm offended by your suggestion that "shagging the boss is always the way to get ahead." Did you shag yours or did you just not get ahead? Anyway, I AM a boss, have never been involved with an employee and yet, some do seem to advance. I'm not so offended that I will report it, however. I think it's totally foolish to assume sleeping with the boss can get you to be the biggest group in US history, but maybe in your neck of the woods, people purchase records and concert tickets based on the bedroom activities of the artist. I'm in New Orleans right now to see Miss Ross. There are dozens of people going to the box office and hanging outside looking for tickets to the sold out event. Tickets were selling for nearly 1000.00 on Stub hub. You can check by going to Stub hub and looking at tickets sold. I do not believe that these fans are going because anyone shagged anyone. Do you think that's how Mary got on Tom Jones, Flip Wilson and Kate Smith? How different do you think things would have played out if Diana and Berry never touched? Would he have, after 5 #1's in a row, suddenly give his attention to The Velvelettes? He was shagging Chis Clark - do you feel she got ahead?

[supremester]

By the way, what does mwmr stand for? As for Flo, I don't see how Miss Ross crushed Flo's spirit, stole her dream or allowed her role to be diminished anymore than Mary did. Berry Gordy made all those decisions and in EVERY instance in the history of Motown, the acts that sold the most, got the most attention. He kicked out Flo and David Ruffin because they were impeding his dream. All Flo had to do was act right but she didn't. That's on her and not anyone else. There are those who felt Mary forced Flo out because Flo was so much more popular, but I don't believe that - do you?

[floyjoy678]

"I'm not gonna let her kill me like she did Flo"-I hope Mary didn't say that, that's very disrespectful to Florence and in bad taste.

"There are those who felt Mary forced Flo out because Flo was so much more popular, but I don't believe that - do you?"
LOL I'm kinda actually one of those people. I don't think Mary forced her out but I do think that she didn't stick up for her or have her back for that reason because with Florence out of the way the fans would begin to notice her a lot more. To this day when watching clips of the original Supremes I'm only focused on Florence and Diana. When Florence was gone I only focused on Diana. I've grown to appreciate Mary over the years though and realize that she, along with Diana and Florence, brought that something special to the group. She's still is my least favorite of the original group though.

[supremester]

It wasn't the touring company. They weren't shady until RTL was operating. Depending on which interview you read, Mary did or did not accept the 4 million. She changes it every so often over the years. It's Mary who is shady. Even on 20/20 - MONTHS after the 4 million dollar offer and all the arguing, she still went on national TV lying about Diana's money and hers as well. She was campaigning hard to get added to the tour, but was probably just digging a deeper grave telling those lies again and again. If I were Miss Ross, I'd just be getting more pissed off that Mary was lying on me - AGAIN. Anyway, Mary tells the story many different ways, Any tour promoter would have handled it the same because Miss Ross obviously wanted zero to do with Mary financially. And I don't blame her. She prolly figured just get the girls together and do the damn shows but not be in a position for Mary to play the victim again. Tomorrow is the 50th Anniversary of Lovelight - much could have been made of that, but, sadly, nothing will be. I think it would take an act of Congress or Mary throwing herself on the mercy of The Supreme Court and Chief Justice Diane Earle Ross-Silberstein-Naess-Ross and admitting she lied on her for years to get a chance at a talk for the possibility of maybe spening a fleeting moment together in public as Supremes. After Miss Ross' fierce show tonight - she needs Su!premes like she needs another broken ankle. The couple next to me GLADLY paid 879.25 per ticket and flew in from Florida after seeing her last month in Sarasota. Girlfriend is in a great place!
Interesting, mwmr. The way it was put out, you think she had decided not to accept the $4 million deal. Did she accept it too late? That's quite unfortunate though. It could've worked out if they probably had a different touring company. SFX was kinda shady.

[supremester]

I wasn't there - like mwmr was- to hear the quote, but I read it in an interview she gave in The UK in January 2000. Flo was so popular, Mary had every reason to be jealous and, given her behavior over the years, probably was. Had Mary stood up for Flo and negotiated a settlement where Maybe Flo could tour less but still be with the group - I believe Berry wooda said yes. He did not want Flo out but she forced his hand. Mary didn't do squat. Mary became the #2 Supreme by default cuz many thought Cindy was a bore. I was one of those. I missed Flo so much that I didn't see what a great replacement Cindy was. If Mary had tried all that scene stealing crap with Flo around, she'd have had to deal with a broken neck! LOLOLOLOL
"I'm not gonna let her kill me like she did Flo"-I hope Mary didn't say that, that's very disrespectful to Florence and in bad taste.

"There are those who felt Mary forced Flo out because Flo was so much more popular, but I don't believe that - do you?"
LOL I'm kinda actually one of those people. I don't think Mary forced her out but I do think that she didn't stick up for her or have her back for that reason because with Florence out of the way the fans would begin to notice her a lot more. To this day when watching clips of the original Supremes I'm only focused on Florence and Diana. When Florence was gone I only focused on Diana. I've grown to appreciate Mary over the years though and realize that she, along with Diana and Florence, brought that something special to the group. She's still is my least favorite of the original group though.

[jobeterob]

What is this about Mary came onto Kate Smith? As well as Flip Wilson & Tom Jones. At least Tom was hung but Kate would have squashed Mary.

[REDHOT]

It is one person here,who keeps SHIT going here,and it's not Marv,i won't say the name,but come on,we all know,who you are,PLEASE STOP,i agree with you Mwmr,Mary and Diana were taught by THE BEST,Berry Gordy,TRUST ME,They all LIE lol,Please stay positive

[jobeterob]

Now Dear Redhot, that is not being very positive.

Due to the outlandishness and spitefulness of Marv's attacks on one of the main Motown Icons, he has several foils on here, me included; and that will continue, thanks to Ralph and Lowell.

Another member raised an issue about Mary Wilson & Kate Smith; I have never heard such a thing and I would like to know the details or if it was a joke. Mary Wilson is a public figure and while she doesn't attract the interest of major Motown figures, the fans are interested. I would like to know the answer to that question.

Some people may feel that because Mary Wilson isn't one of the major Motown stars, that she should be exempt from having her behaviour questioned. Perhaps at one time, such an argument held sway. But not after her books; she waived any privilege at that time. And while the attacks of YouTube are not needed, questions are.

I await Supremester's reply.

[milven]

Supremester did not say that Mary Wilson shagged Kate Smith. My interpration is that Supremster asked the poster if Mary got her Supremes on those shows by shagging just as the poster thought that the Supemes were successful because of Diana's relationship with Berry. The conclusion being that the Supremes [[and Diana) would have been a huge success even if she did not have a personal relationship with Berry.


.. I'm offended by your suggestion that "shagging the boss is always the way to get ahead." .... I think it's totally foolish to assume sleeping with the boss can get you to be the biggest group in US history, but maybe in your neck of the woods, people purchase records and concert tickets based on the bedroom activities of the artist. I'm in New Orleans right now to see Miss Ross. There are dozens of people going to the box office and hanging outside looking for tickets to the sold out event. .. Do you think that's how Mary got on Tom Jones, Flip Wilson and Kate Smith? How different do you think things would have played out if Diana and Berry never touched? Would he have, after 5 #1's in a row, suddenly give his attention to The Velvelettes? He was shagging Chis Clark - do you feel she got ahead?

[jobeterob]

LOL, lawyers thought processes are often unclear!

[REDHOT]

Come now,everyone knows,if you have a personal relationship,with the boss,you can get more,and that,don't make it wrong,that's the way it is,again,to that person,that keeps the MESS going here,Ralph has told you before,STOP IT,this person say negative things,because they know,they will get a reaction,Diana is stop,Mary is nothing,they are saying this for a reaction,a lot of people here, make up LIES,Mary and Kate? REALLY?LOL,too much BULL,Please stay positive

[Roberta75]

Come now,everyone knows,if you have a personal relationship,with the boss,you can get more,and that,don't make it wrong,that's the way it is,again,to that person,that keeps the MESS going here,Ralph has told you before,STOP IT,this person say negative things,because they know,they will get a reaction,Diana is stop,Mary is nothing,they are saying this for a reaction,a lot of people here, make up LIES,Mary and Kate? REALLY?LOL,too much BULL,Please stay positive

Oh come on REDHOT everyone know Mary never slept with Kate Smith i think and hope the person who wrote it was joking. Yes some mean things are said about Mary that shouldn't be said but your friend say terrible things about Diane that shouldnt be said as well so EVERYBODY need to stop bashing all former Supremes and by that I mean Diane Ross and Mary Wilson and Lynda Lawrence. We DONT know these women personally so stop ALL the personal attacks on these ladies. Be real grateful that they still around to entertain us and leave the who slept with who and who killed who [[which is vicious and disgusting to accuse) out of it and focus on the music.

Please stay positive.

Roberta

[marybrewster]

What is this about Mary came onto Kate Smith? As well as Flip Wilson & Tom Jones. At least Tom was hung but Kate would have squashed Mary.

This made me laugh out loud! :)

[REDHOT]

Like i said,they say negative things, for a reaction,and most of the time,they get it,i'm sure you were joking Roberta,i have no friends here lol,some of the things,people say here,i can't believe it,yes there's a lot of VICIOUS FANS,I'm not one of them,because i have RESPECT for all of them,i try to keep the negative things to myself lol,Please stay positive

[Roberta75]

Like i said,they say negative things, for a reaction,and most of the time,they get it,i'm sure you were joking Roberta,i have no friends here lol,some of the things,people say here,i can't believe it,yes there's a lot of VICIOUS FANS,I'm not one of them,because i have RESPECT for all of them,i try to keep the negative things to myself lol,Please stay positive

You are a good sould dear REDHOT and youre real respected and loved by me and many others.

Fondly,

Roberta

[mwmr]

I'm sorry if gay innuendo offends you, I edited the post. It was not pointless, it made my point very clearly and it is very hypocritical of you to complain of sexual innuendo, then use it yourself. At least that's the way I see it. Or is it because mine was gay and yours was a mixed couple? Is it OK if it's a man and a woman? Let me know so I won't offend you in the future. Personally, I'm offended by your suggestion that "shagging the boss is always the way to get ahead." Did you shag yours or did you just not get ahead? Anyway, I AM a boss, have never been involved with an employee and yet, some do seem to advance. I'm not so offended that I will report it, however. I think it's totally foolish to assume sleeping with the boss can get you to be the biggest group in US history, but maybe in your neck of the woods, people purchase records and concert tickets based on the bedroom activities of the artist. I'm in New Orleans right now to see Miss Ross. There are dozens of people going to the box office and hanging outside looking for tickets to the sold out event. Tickets were selling for nearly 1000.00 on Stub hub. You can check by going to Stub hub and looking at tickets sold. I do not believe that these fans are going because anyone shagged anyone. Do you think that's how Mary got on Tom Jones, Flip Wilson and Kate Smith? How different do you think things would have played out if Diana and Berry never touched? Would he have, after 5 #1's in a row, suddenly give his attention to The Velvelettes? He was shagging Chis Clark - do you feel she got ahead?

my user name is my intials [[yes i share the same intitials as Mary followed by mr as that is what i am.

There was no need for gay innuendo in the thread and i say this as an out and proud gay man in a long term civil partenrship.

[[Shagging btw is not an offensive term)and it's a matter of public record that Diane was sleeping with the boss

Hypocrite? You don't know me so cannot make that assumption and hey you're not the only person who is a boss! The measure of me is defined by the fact that i actually told you i found your post offensive and that i was reporting it as such because i am an honest person who never does things behind anyones back.

I've no interest in pursuing this conversation further, and I won't be, it's people like yourself who make this boards non-enjoyable for the masses.
Enjoy your show, as i enjoy all shows by any of the 7 living remaining Supremes.

[Roberta75]

Enjoy your show, as i enjoy all shows by any of the 7 living remaining Supremes.

Theres actually 8 living Supremes mwmr theres Diane Ross and Mary Wilson and Cindy Birddsong and Lynda Lawrence and Jean Terrell and Sherrie Payne and Susaye Greene and Barbara Martin. Miss Barbara Martin may be a retired podiatrist in Wisconsin but shes still a Supreme imo.

Roberta

[milven]

I guess you are right technically, but since Barbara was only there for a minute before their fame, many don't regard her as a Supreme.
http://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4643311829385534&pid=1.9&m=&w=300&h=300&p=0

In the Group Gladys Knight & the Pips, Brenda Knight, Eleanor Guest, Langston George & Chris Morante were part of the group in the beginning before their fame; and technically they are as much Pips as Barbara is a Supreme. But they are not Bubba, William and Ed just as Barbara is not DFM or any of their successors.

But yes, you are technically right.

[Roberta75]

I guess you are right technically, but since Barbara was only there for a minute before their fame, many don't regard her as a Supreme.
http://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4643311829385534&pid=1.9&m=&w=300&h=300&p=0

In the Group Gladys Knight & the Pips, Brenda Knight, Eleanor Guest, Langston George & Chris Morante were part of the group in the beginning before their fame; and technically they are as much Pips as Barbara is a Supreme. But they are not Bubba, William and Ed just as Barbara is not DFM or any of their successors.

But yes, you are technically right.

Thank you dear Milven. I have a real special place in my heart for Miss Barbara Martin or anyone who work with feet for that matter.

Fondly,

Roberta

[jobeterob]

Like i said,they say negative things, for a reaction,and most of the time,they get it,i'm sure you were joking Roberta,i have no friends here lol,some of the things,people say here,i can't believe it,yes there's a lot of VICIOUS FANS,I'm not one of them,because i have RESPECT for all of them,i try to keep the negative things to myself lol,Please stay positive

Your a good woman Redhot.

[midnightman]

Oh come on REDHOT everyone know Mary never slept with Kate Smith i think and hope the person who wrote it was joking. Yes some mean things are said about Mary that shouldn't be said but your friend say terrible things about Diane that shouldnt be said as well so EVERYBODY need to stop bashing all former Supremes and by that I mean Diane Ross and Mary Wilson and Lynda Lawrence. We DONT know these women personally so stop ALL the personal attacks on these ladies. Be real grateful that they still around to entertain us and leave the who slept with who and who killed who [[which is vicious and disgusting to accuse) out of it and focus on the music.

Please stay positive.

Roberta

It's the least anyone can do. The Supremes made history, we can't be satisfied on that? Let's try to, for the sake of the remaining eight alive and for the one that has long departed. Respect all the Supremes. Real talk.

[REDHOT]

Thank you,Roberta and Jobeterob.

[TheMotownManiac]

Feet............yeah........
Thank you dear Milven. I have a real special place in my heart for Miss Barbara Martin or anyone who work with feet for that matter.

Fondly,

Roberta

[supremester]

Let me clarify a few things. I am not bashing Mary. I am reminding people of the truth in topics not originated by me. If people do not like the truth about Mary & RTL for example, it is best not to bring it up. I didn't ask her to change her story a dozen times, I'm merely reminding y'all about how it went down. It is not easily dismissed as "oh, everybody lies" by me because it resulted in character assassination that caused a lot of people a lot of unhappiness. And since that result was the intent, I find it ugly and the lowest form of mean-spiritednosity. Everything I discussed in this topic was fact - not fiction and not interpretation. If anyone does not like the term liar used about one who repeatedly lies, I'm happy to use another more preferrable term. Please let me know what it is you prefer.


Mary & Kate Smith? C'mon. Let me ex-plain what I was try-ing to say with that an-ol-o-gy: I find it ludicrous that anyone would think the term "sleeping with the boss" could possibly apply to this topic. Those who advance that way are in positions that they are generally not effective in and thus attain and retain those positions because of favors performed and not on job performance. That is hardly the case here. . If sleeping with the boss after you have recorded 5 #1 singles in 9 months and become the label's biggest selling act ever in 6 months is needed to get you ahead - how much farther is there to go? To suggest it is bashing Miss Ross. Why do the people who rally against bashing do it themselves? I asked if Mary, who was shagging both Tom Jones & Flip Wilson was on their shows because she slept with them. Did they do it on merit? ONE week in the top ten and they are signed to both shows? Hmmmmmmm....... That game can be played many, many ways. Certainly Mary got advanced in The Supremes when she was shagging Pedro - the boss. It is a matter of public record that Motown definitely wasn't in favor of her signing leads. And unlike Diana Ross, Mary was not exactly a commercial success doing it - so what is your point? In fact, a case can be made since the decline of the 70's Supremes paraalelled the increase in Mary's leads in the group. Lucille Ball was shagging Desi Arnaz - was her success on i Love Lucy because of sexual favors? My bf and I watched "Ethel's Birthday" tonight and I suggest the shagging had zero to do with the brilliance of her performance. I do not think Mary shagged Kate Smith, I do think it is easy to toss mindless platitudes without any thought to the practical application of the statement or the arrogance to ignore it's own bashing quotient.

[jobeterob]

I wonder if Mary now thinks that Pedro "advanced" her in the 70's Supremes? I wonder if it was he who suggested she sue Karen Ragland? Or he who suggested they release "Touch" as a single? Or appear in South Africa when no one else would? Or he who suggested they sing their new disco release at an Oldies Show in Madison Square Garden?

[supremester]

Well it's really sad that both Flo and Mary gave their careers over to totally inexperienced boyfriends/husbands. Sad also that Miss Ross got blamed for their eventual level of success. One thing I wonder about is what was Motown thinking for future releases after Bad Weather? Was there other stuff in the can? Certainly they weren't bailing on JML because Jimmy Webb & Bad Weather tanked. Were they on hold until Jean split? I don't get that at all. I wonder if Mary considered going to Berry and saying, "You know, Berry, you were right about Jean. I was so anxious and scared with Diane leaving, I should have listened. Can you forgive me and work with us now?" Even if she didn't mean it. Instead, she sued for the name and they were not even Supremes legally for nearly two years. Now, Mary agrees that Jean wasn't the correct choice. Her exact words, "Berry Gordy has the knack to know who the best person was to put in any situation. That's his greatest gift and he built Motown because of it. He knew Jean wasn't the correct choice, but I just didn't want Syreeta." She wasn't knocking Jean at all, mind you....... But at the time, Diana, Mary, Martha etc were all just doing what they were told and might not have thought about things objectively. Now all three have built successful shows on their own. Miss ross' show is so tight, so perfectly crafted to her needs and the audience's desires, that a case could be made for her never changing it. She is getting some of the best reviews of her life. When Gladys, The J5, Marvin & the Tempts all split, Motown might have had the resources and time to devote to relaunch The Supremes had Pedro not been involved. I believe they were salvageable.

[jobeterob]

They were definitely salvageable although I don't know that they would have been even as successful as the later day Temptations.

They needed a whole new look, style, sound ~ a reinvention that failed with Jimmy Webb although that was a clever idea.

If the relationship between Diana and Mary had been better, there would have been another life for Mary and some of the later day Supremes ~ as in the continuous touring of the Beach Boys, or the life that got breathed into the Tempts with the Temptations Movie. But the two attempts turned into publicity stunts/fiascos and then Diana didn't care anymore and the later day Supremes aren't strong enough publicly to do much on their own.

[REDHOT]

LOL You're a JOKE,and a SAD joke,i had to say it,I'M SORRY,you wanted a REACTION,there,you have it,I TRYED LOL

[supremester]

I think that even in '77, had Motown been approached with the new idea Scherrie & Susaye had, that Motown might have helped out. They were all talented and Mary could have done torchy sexy ballads while Susaye did her vocal-isms and Scherrie handled the pop tunes and old hits. Even in '83, I think The Supremes would have worked with Motown's help but Mary wanted to be the lead and they didn't want that. It's tougher to launch The Supremes than The Temptations because so much emphasis is on each one and Ross was the face of the group. The Tempts had David & Dennis & Eddie& Paul - so they were better than ever. Imagine the classic lineup PLUS Dennis......omg.

[REDHOT]

LOL This is a one person show,REALLY?

[jobeterob]

LOL This is a one person show,REALLY?

It was.

That's why she is still OUT there and the rest of them struggle.

That's just not a popular answer with died hard Maryites.

But it's fact.

[thisoldheart]

if my memory serves me well, and before this devolved into the usual diana and mary train wreck there was a question posed that seemed to imply the general pop audience was not overly aware of who was and who wasn't a supreme when diana ross held down the lead.

i was quite aware of the names of the group. "more hits" had their names on the cover, and "back in my arms again" had their names prominently featured. it is true they were no john, paul, george & ringo ... but they were the closest we had here in the states. i am quite certain that ms. ballard was in quite a bind not being able to acknowledge her work with the #1 trio in the country after she left motown.

it seems too many people much younger than me write with a lot of unsubstantiated certainty about an era they were not witness too!

[kenneth]

To save me from having to wade through all the Diane vs. Mary vitriol, can someone tell me who is in the 4 Tops now, who are performing with Mary Wilson? I didn't realize they were still performing after Levi's death. Of course I know Duke is still living, so am curious who is now singing with him and the other remaining Top [[Lawrence Payton I believe?).

[REDHOT]

You really don't get it,this time Jobeterob,i was saying,this is a one person show,had nothing to do,with Mary or Diana,i don't play those GAMES,What i was trying to say,how SICK this fan is,in every way puttin' everyone down,but Diana,but doing it in a nice and nasty way lol,REALLY?he can say nice things about Diana,nothing is wrong with that,but don't do it,at the cost of the other former SUPREMES,it really becomes SICK,there i said it lol,

[supremester]

If you are referring to me, REDHOT, please understand: I am not putting anyone "down. " Nor do I see anything as Diana vs Mary. They have totally different careers and there is nothing to compare. If someone brings up a topic like someone foolish enough to think a global icon can be made by sexual favors, I stated my opposing view and pointed out others who "slept with the boss" and were not successful. Did I turn Paul Petersen into Diana vs Mary? No. Picture of Cindy? No. Personally, I think it's sick to criticize others for behavior you personally participate in yourself. Ditto RTL. I didn't bring it up, but I stated my opinion which included me saying all Miss Ross had to do look past the things that pissed her off and bring the train back to the station. I also suggested why I think she didn't. Just above I was saying nice things about MSS and that I think as an act they could have worked with stronger direction from Motown or the new phase S&S were planning. If you think I'm sick, you should see the lies certain people write on Youtube - ugly, vicious lies.....what do you call that? At least I tell the truth - which sometimes is unpleasant, granted. Shall I send you some of the posts I'm talking about? I'm guessing you'll say no. I can go months on end reading snide remarks about Miss Ross on here and not a word from you about how sick THAT is. It's not ME who needs a doctor, Blanche!

[REDHOT]

It's silly and childish,i'm thinking,how old are these people,anything for a REACTION lol,again NICE AND NASTY,at the same time lol SICK

[jobeterob]

It's silly and childish,i'm thinking,how old are these people,anything for a REACTION lol,again NICE AND NASTY,at the same time lol SICK

But Supremester is right!

Either because she was the star or because she made more money, in some quarters here it is acceptable to piss all over Diana Ross.

If pissing on Diana is good, it is good for Mary and all other Supremes.

If WE want to stop it, we ALL stop it. Not just part of the crew.

Right?

[blueskies]

It's not ME who needs a doctor, Blanche! Sure nice to see Baby Jane Hudson pop up!

[supremester]

We watched it a few weeks ago with some friends who had not seen it before and had a blast. So well acted [[save for the neighbors and Elvira) and has one of my very very very fave character actresses [[Marjorie Bennett) as Edwin's mother......... The newly initiated LOVED it, btw. Anyway, it reminds me of RTL where Miss Ross is perceived to be the villian only to learn later it was Mary that caused the accident. Pictured: Jane checks train schedules to see if it had left the station as Blanche says, "can you bring it back???"
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-zzgzz1UcNBE/TgymNPqdcqI/AAAAAAAABBE/OYG1reKcJb8/s1600/Baby+Jane.jpg

[Roberta75]

It's silly and childish,i'm thinking,how old are these people,anything for a REACTION lol,again NICE AND NASTY,at the same time lol SICK

But you keep giving him or her a reaction dear REDHOT which isnt real positive imo. If you dont like what Supremester write about Miss Mary Wilson then do what many do when marv2 write vile things about Miss Diane Ross and by that I mean ignore the negative my dear. Its not real construktive to keep adding to a thread when you are clearly agittated.

Have a beautiful and blessed Sunday and stay positive and dont get upset dear.

Roberta

[REDHOT]

I'll say it again,this has nothing to do with,Diana bein' a big star,or as some of you put it,Mary not making it,the way Diana made it,any one here,can say what they like,this is a public form lol,how silly and childish,again,how old are these people?Roberta upset?NEVER, some[[not all)of these fans,are not well.

[midnightman]

Redhot, Roberta is right. It's best to ignore anyone that annoys anyone. It's silly to engage 'em. I know how it is because I've been there in some boards [[not here though) but I don't think it's cool to engage in back and forth nonsense.

[jim aka jtigre99]

I hope everyone is as excited as I am that nearly 50 years after the Supremes' first top 40 hit that Diana Ross has just had a successful and well received tour, that Mary Wilson continues to perform both rock and symphony/up close/Lena Horne tribute shows that are well received as is the Supremes' gown exhibits and that she is headlining a Holiday Show in Chicago with fellow Motown alumni the Four Tops and that Scherrie Payne and Lynda Laurence formerly of the Supremes toured Australia to a large and enthusiastic audience. Susaye Greene is currently in the recording studio and has recently been in Twenty Feet from Stardom, The Game Don't Change and Basketball Wife. I know that TRUE fans of the Supremes are happy that the former members continue doing well. Congats to all of them! :)

[midnightman]

^ This. Thank you so much for saying all of that. No point in bickering nonsense.

[REDHOT]

Well said Jim aka Jtigre.

[thisoldheart]

can those of you who have nothing better to do that diss the members of the supremes kindly make your own website? the rest of us would rather talk motown music!

thanks ...

[supremester]

Jim, I couldn't agree more. I see all former Supremes shows when I can and I am very happy they are all working, as I have said many times how lucky we are to have who we have. I just saw Miss Ross a few nights ago making about 15 times this year, saw Mary's show a year ago and chatted with her [[who knows exactly how I feel about "things")at Bette Midler the night after Motown The Musical premiered and at the premiere [[outside - I wasn't invited). I also spoke to Lynda a few months ago [[I have supplied all three current Flos, I believe, their luggage.) I've never seen Susaye's show but I wish them all well.
I hope everyone is as excited as I am that nearly 50 years after the Supremes' first top 40 hit that Diana Ross has just had a successful and well received tour, that Mary Wilson continues to perform both rock and symphony/up close/Lena Horne tribute shows that are well received as is the Supremes' gown exhibits and that she is headlining a Holiday Show in Chicago with fellow Motown alumni the Four Tops and that Scherrie Payne and Lynda Laurence formerly of the Supremes toured Australia to a large and enthusiastic audience. Susaye Greene is currently in the recording studio and has recently been in Twenty Feet from Stardom, The Game Don't Change and Basketball Wife. I know that TRUE fans of the Supremes are happy that the former members continue doing well. Congats to all of them! :)

[jillfoster]

Geez... and you all call ME a troublemaker? Look at all this mess, and I wasn't around for any of it! What a bunch of fuckin jackwagons you all are! LOL

[jillfoster]

Jim, I couldn't agree more. I see all former Supremes shows when I can and I am very happy they are all working, as I have said many times how lucky we are to have who we have. I just saw Miss Ross a few nights ago making about 15 times this year, saw Mary's show a year ago and chatted with her [[who knows exactly how I feel about "things")at Bette Midler the night after Motown The Musical premiered and at the premiere [[outside - I wasn't invited). I also spoke to Lynda a few months ago [[I have supplied all three current Flos, I believe, their luggage.) I've never seen Susaye's show but I wish them all well.

You chatted with Mary? Well, I'm sure that won't happen again when she is shown what you say about her on these forums. And I highly doubt you spoke with her, seeing as how your ass wouldn't be able to fit through her dressing room door.

[supremester]

A) Mary knows exactly what I say on these forums and also knows it's the truth. I've said nothing untrue that would offend her on here or anywhere. B) She has extra wide dressing room doors in her rider so I can visit. C) She didn't have a dressing room at I'll Eat You Last or at The Motown Musical. D) There are people on this forum who have witnessed me talking to Mary [[although I admit at least one was a bit nervous about it at first) and heard me tell her "I saw Miss Ross 30 times last year." If you don't have her personal email, you can probably reach her through her website and ask her what she dislikes more: the homophobic comments and ugly lies and rants about Miss Ross made by certain people or my comments [[provide whichever you think worse) and see what she says. I think you'll be disappointed, but try it.
You chatted with Mary? Well, I'm sure that won't happen again when she is shown what you say about her on these forums. And I highly doubt you spoke with her, seeing as how your ass wouldn't be able to fit through her dressing room door.

[REDHOT]

LOL i'll say it again,some of these fan[[not all)need help,they don't know when to STOP.

[Penny]

LOL i'll say it again,some of these fan[[not all)need help,they don't know when to STOP.

Redhot, a friendly reminder to please stay positive.

Penny:cool:
Schlepping Avon and staying positive.

[skooldem1]

It has always been funny to me to see how angry some folks get around here when someone other than Diana Ross is criticized. Only when "others" are criticized do many here consider it a problem.

[supremester]

Exactly my point all along. And the thing is, I'm not even criticizing Mary, I'm only discussing facts that transpired. I'm not calling her names or inventing bad things about her. It's OK - they are avid fans that love their Mary. I go to Diana Ross 15-40 times a year......not exactly normal either ; ). Mary is widening her her dressing room doors for me today. It's the same issue since the beginning of the internet: Gloria Upson says JMC's first sold more more than Diana's first; so Vera Charles points out Ross's second outsold JMC's first 3 and on it goes. By the way, Sleepin' outsold Touch by over a hundred units! Ha Ha on them!

[blueskies]

Gloria Upson says JMC's first sold more than Diana's first. Gloria also said...."and I stepped on the ball."

[REDHOT]

Some people don't know when to STOP LOL,they just go,on and on about the same MESS,REALLY? LOL

[jobeterob]

Sleepin outsold Touch?
Tell me more!

[supremester]

I notice that ---- they just keep repeating themselves over and over and over and over............but in a positive way, of course!



Some people don't know when to STOP LOL,they just go,on and on about the same MESS,REALLY? LOL

[jobeterob]

Sleepin............155000 vs Touch, 80,000

or not even that much?

[marybrewster]

To save me from having to wade through all the Diane vs. Mary vitriol, can someone tell me who is in the 4 Tops now, who are performing with Mary Wilson? I didn't realize they were still performing after Levi's death. Of course I know Duke is still living, so am curious who is now singing with him and the other remaining Top [[Lawrence Payton I believe?).

Hi kenneth-

Lawrence Payton passed June 20, 1997.

The current line-up of the Four Tops is: Duke Fakir [[Original member), Lawrence Payton Jr. [[son of Original Four Top), Ronnie McNeir [[former Motown artist, and "Top" since 1999) and Harold Bonhart [[former member of "The Spinners"; "Top" since 2011).

[supremester]

They may have pressed or shipped that many, but I doubt that after returns, those figures are even close. Both are from LP's that wre already on the market and both underperformed their predecessors. Also, both were horrendous choices for radio. I couldn't believe they released Sleepin' [[however, it's not like the album was full of potential either)
Sleepin............155000 vs Touch, 80,000

or not even that much?

[jobeterob]

They may have pressed or shipped that many, but I doubt that after returns, those figures are even close. Both are from LP's that wre already on the market and both underperformed their predecessors. Also, both were horrendous choices for radio. I couldn't believe they released Sleepin' [[however, it's not like the album was full of potential either)

Sleepin 30000; Touch 10000

[smark21]

NO matter how many 45s Sleepin and Touch sold, no doubt nearly every single unit sold is now decomposing away in a landfill and sitting forgotten in someone’s basement, attic, or gathering dust in the back room of a flea market.

[supremester]

It fascinates me because it illustrates where the powers that be heads were at. They are trying to push an act forward with 45's and this is what they came up with? Ditto the singles from Diana & Marvin. No wonder their careers were spotty. The Tempts were so lucky to have Norman in charge.

[jobeterob]

It should have been Love Twins and then My Mistake Was To Love You off of Diana and Marvin and skip You're A Special Part of Me altogether.

Although they were single disasters I still really like both Touch and Sleepin as songs; Touch more than Sleepin.

[supremester]

I agree on Love Twins - if ever there was a track for fall of '73 - it was that. Just Say Just Say was also very strong single material. 2 superstar acts coming off #1's and all you can think of is Special Part Of Me???? That may have been the first time such an event occurred and look at the result: an over produced B -side makes it to #12 on the strength of it's roots. Imagine what a real single might have done. Again, it shows someone was asleep at the switch!
I never liked Touch from the get-go. it's a hot mess to my ears and I think the main problem is the Mary/Jean thing - they sound like they are competing. I know they aren't, but Jean is just too bargie-innie all the time. I would have just given it to Mary and be done with it. I think she might have really had a chance with it. I've grown used to it now, cuz I've tried to hear what others like about it, but it just ain't happening. Sleepin was fine for an LP cut on that crazy LP............ugh........don't get me started.

[midnightman]

Marvin seemed to love "Love Twins" because he did that a lot on his last tour. "Love Twins" was more his speed though Diana sung most of the vocals lol it would've helped them both.

[jobeterob]

Released at a different time in their careers, You're A Special Part of Me would have done nothing, to quote Stevie.

[supremester]

LOL.......exactly. Where/when did he say this? You know, it's not a bad track, when all we had was that 45, it was cool to have in that I liked it enough to play it but I knew it wouldn't hit. It sounded awful on the radio. I was caught up in the excitement of my two fave voices together that I enjoyed that mess. I drew the line at the flip side. Most of the other tracks would have hit harder and led the way to a better received project.

[jobeterob]

LOL.......exactly. Where/when did he say this? You know, it's not a bad track, when all we had was that 45, it was cool to have in that I liked it enough to play it but I knew it wouldn't hit. It sounded awful on the radio. I was caught up in the excitement of my two fave voices together that I enjoyed that mess. I drew the line at the flip side. Most of the other tracks would have hit harder and led the way to a better received project.

I was mainly referring to the Stevie Wonder single aimed most at Richard Nixon.

Still, even with the oddball first single, Diana & Marvin was on the Album Chart for nearly a full year.