The Release That Wasn't: The Supremes/MOTHER DEAR - The Red Skelton Show, 1965

[Methuselah2]

The slinky, sexy Supremes. Easily one of my favorite Supremes' TV performances. I distinctly remember the night--and the surprise of MOTHER DEAR from their MORE HITS album--when it aired on CBS.

Thank you to Supremes59 for this YouTube posting. I never tire of seeing it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FrNUZpwxjw

Several alternate versions have surfaced on this one over the years. Thank you to MotownConnoisseur30 for this posting of Version 2--accompanied by a beautiful video of one great photo after another:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ra5PBQpS67s

[nathanj06]

A perfect Supremes song. HDH out did themselves with "More Hits". This song stood out so much it's too bad it was overlooked as a single...but almost. I never get tired of hearing it and included it on my Greatest Hits comp. I wish there was a better quality video of this. I'm glad to just have this one though.

[Methuselah2]

I completely agree, Nathan. MORE HITS is such a stellar production. HDH in top form. And each track got the full treatment. For me, it's The Supremes' best album. With MOTHER DEAR a top-notch cut, it had A-side written all over it. But, alas, they weren't willing to risk it once NOTHING BUT HEARTACHES didn't perform as well as expected. But that one, too, is another favorite of mine.

[smark21]

I think Mother Dear is an awful song. Catchy, but awful.

[ejluther]

I think it's interesting that they revisited the motherly advice angle with "You Can't Hurry Love"...

[Methuselah2]

I wonder why it wasn't used on another artist at some point. I can think of several that it could have worked very well with. By mid-1966, enough time would have already passed for someone else to release it on without concern of a Supremes connection.

[BayouMotownMan]

I love this appearance too. Diana was more involved with the choreography and they were just damn sexy the way the swiveled those hips. Mother Dear was planned as a single twice and canceled both times.

[antceleb12]

It's a very catchy song, but I don't think it had potential beyond a B-side. It's neat, though, that they went through the work of recording multiple versions, but never went anywhere with it - kind of like "Buttered popcorn," "[[You're Gonna) Come to Me," etc.

[I ♥ The Supremes and Temptations]

Mother Dear is a good song but, it doesn't grab me something is missing
The alternative version on The Supremes Box Set is way better!

I'm curious if Honey Boy would've been a big hit? I hear single potential.

[BayouMotownMan]

Mother Dear may have gotten Motown into legal problems with the Beach Boys. The "Help, Help me mother dear" was an obvious copy of the hook from Help Me Rhonda. [["Help me Rhonda, help help me Rhonda."). I agree that it probably would have done worse than Nothing But Heartaches, which to me is still my fav off of More Hits.

Ask Any Girl I still say could have been a big hit. Otherwise, the oft-overlooked "[[I'm So Glad) Heartaches Don't Last Always, while not single potential, is a gorgeous Supremes production. Ross gives a sleepy rendition until the final chorus where she asserts her indepence [[How happy I am to be over you at last now).

I think Surfer Boy, omitted from that album, could also have been a hit single. It was simple and funky with full backing vocals from Mary and FLo and a great Diana lead

[supremester]

I adore More Hits - it was the ideal follow up album to WDOLG and the first all HDH LP. I was shocked when I learned Mother Dear was considered for single release. I don't think the subject matter is conducive to boys buying the record, lyrically, it's pushing it [[bad/sad, go/so.....) It has a great intro, trademark HDH snap with 2 builds, but still the bg sounds yelpy and Ross' vocal is buried too much in the last verse. I love it on the album - it's a killer LP cut, I think Nothing But Heartaches was, by far, the correct choice. If HDH had nothing new, I'd have chosen a gussied up Honey Boy or Whisper You Love Me Boy - I think both had top ten potential, but needed much fuller background arrangements. I love the sound of Mary & Flo on Honey Boy - Flo singing under Miss Ross on the chorus is so yummy. I don't hear them at all on Whisper and suspect it's The Andantes and on this track, I'd love to "hear" Mary & Flo with The A's fleshing them out if needed. Plus there's that "iify" note in the first verse that Miss Ross needs to fix.

[supremester]

I've often wondered about the viability of Ask Any Girl as a single. I loved that track since the first day I played it. It's seamless with no water whatsoever - a brilliant pop production. Still, I don't know if the intro would help or hurt and, since there were over 5 million copies of the song already in the marketplace by Sept '65, how many potential Supremes fans would not have it already? With help, it may have gone easy listening as well - but it would have needed major push to get a black pop group on those Ray Coniff loving charts. This is such a fun forum - reading the varied opinions. I can't hear Surfer Boy as a single, but you're not the first to suggest it. Imagine if everyone here was in the Friday QC meetings ; )
Mother Dear may have gotten Motown into legal problems with the Beach Boys. The "Help, Help me mother dear" was an obvious copy of the hook from Help Me Rhonda. [["Help me Rhonda, help help me Rhonda."). I agree that it probably would have done worse than Nothing But Heartaches, which to me is still my fav off of More Hits.

Ask Any Girl I still say could have been a big hit. Otherwise, the oft-overlooked "[[I'm So Glad) Heartaches Don't Last Always, while not single potential, is a gorgeous Supremes production. Ross gives a sleepy rendition until the final chorus where she asserts her indepence [[How happy I am to be over you at last now).

I think Surfer Boy, omitted from that album, could also have been a hit single. It was simple and funky with full backing vocals from Mary and FLo and a great Diana lead

[ejluther]

I love the alternate universe where "Surfer Boy" was a single and a hit! I used to not like it much but a friend got me to reconsider it and he was right; it's pretty damn charming!
Mother Dear may have gotten Motown into legal problems with the Beach Boys. The "Help, Help me mother dear" was an obvious copy of the hook from Help Me Rhonda. [["Help me Rhonda, help help me Rhonda."). I never thought of that before - but the melody of each is not identical, is it? Could the BB claim ownership of the words "Help help me"? The reasoning behind such cases always seems hard to pin down to me...

[smark21]

I think You Can’t Hurry Love is a sequel to Mother Dear, but unlike most sequels, far superior. The girl in Mother Dear is a pathetic and helpless victim. The lyrics to You Can’t Hurry Love are melodramatic in the verses, but the chorus is grounded in good common sense suggesting a dialogue between the mother and the daughter.

[I ♥ The Supremes and Temptations]

The song does sound dated compared to their other releases.
I think You Can’t Hurry Love is a sequel to Mother Dear, but unlike most sequels, far superior. The girl in Mother Dear is a pathetic and helpless victim. The lyrics to You Can’t Hurry Love are melodramatic in the verses, but the chorus is grounded in good common sense suggesting a dialogue between the mother and the daughter.

[bradsupremes]

I think You Can’t Hurry Love is a sequel to Mother Dear, but unlike most sequels, far superior. The girl in Mother Dear is a pathetic and helpless victim. The lyrics to You Can’t Hurry Love are melodramatic in the verses, but the chorus is grounded in good common sense suggesting a dialogue between the mother and the daughter.

I always thought the Vandellas' "I'm Ready For Love" was a sequel to "You Can't Hurry Love." It's a shame HDH didn't cut a version on the Supremes.

[LuvHangOva]

I think the Skelton clip is darling. The choreography is some of the smoothest and most elegant I recall my girls doing. Im not in the habit of second guessing what should or should not have been released. As a 9 or 10 yr old kid I REALLY didn't care.
i liked it and Honey Boy then as much as I do now.

[Methuselah2]

LHO - 'Smooth' and 'elegant' absolutely nail it. And I've always felt this great routine really could have put this one on top. It seemed like one of those performances--like STOP! on Hollywood Palace, BACK IN MY ARMS AGAIN on Hullabaloo, and YOU CAN'T HURRY LOVE on The Ed Sullivan Show--when the song itself becomes very closely identified with the TV performance. MOTHER DEAR, at first blush, seems like a fairly straight-forward routine but there's so much going on in it that it's fairly complex. Diana, Mary, & Flo are so in synch with their steps, and their timing seems spot-on. And I don't think they were ever this sexy on TV together, before or after. For once, they are all the main focus of a routine--Flo & Mary: smooth, hypnotic, and oh-so-cool, while Diana is like a beautiful cobra itchin' & twitchin' as she slithers through the dance and begins to coil up. Personally, I can't hear MOTHER DEAR without visualizing this performance. I may well be in a minority of one on that aspect but I think song & dance together were always crucial to The Supremes' popularity, just as their personalities and beauty were.

By the same token, unfortunately, I think something like the dance routine to LOVE IS LIKE AN ITCHING IN MY HEART as performed on The Ed Sullivan Show only served to thwart sales of that stellar recording. There was almost no routine for that one, and what was there didn't play, didn't work, didn't sell.

[BigAl]

I'm curious if Honey Boy would've been a big hit? I hear single potential.


"Honey Boy" was test-played, at least where I was living at the time [[Virginia). I heard it twice on a local station. I never heard "Mother Dear" played although there are many who did. Thus, I'm wondering if perhaps they backed each other on a test-marketed single. In any case, after hearing it twice on the radio I never heard it there again. Mary Wells' version was much better.

[johnjeb]

I always thought the Vandellas' "I'm Ready For Love" was a sequel to "You Can't Hurry Love." It's a shame HDH didn't cut a version on the Supremes.

At the time they were released I thought "I'm Ready For Love" and The Temptations' "All I Need" were too similar to "You Can't Hurry Love". I thought they were just OK. Now I really like them quite a bit.

I did get Martha's Watchout album with Ready For Love as soon as it was released and it is my favorite Motown album - second to Where Did Our Love Go LP.

[johnjeb]

Mother Dear is my favorite from More Hits. It could have been a single in mid-1965 but I don't think it would have fared well after that time. I also don't think it would have done as well as Nothing But Heartaches. However, I rarely skip over Mother Dear when I play More Hits but on many occasions I will skip Heartaches.

The performances of this song on the Skelton and Martin shows were nice but not exciting and I can see why it didn't generate any buzz to have it released. Likewise, when More Hits was released our local station played many of the cuts and I don't think there was any buzz that any LP cuts should be released as singles.

I love the look of The Supremes on both of these shows. One of my favorite pictures is from the Skelton show doing Mother Dear.

[captainjames]

Nothing But Heartaches was always a favorite to me. Mother Dear was missing the hook that You Can't Hurry Love had with the drums. I always said replace the horns in Mother Dear with drums and bass and you had a hit.

[dba]

Hands down a personal fav and I love the performance.
The mistake was them not doing Nothing but heartaches on the Ed Sullivan show when it was released instead of this song. They did Your Nobody Till Somebody. Just saying . . .

[supremester]

Honey Boy ..........ahhhhhhhhh Honey Boy......just the way she says it.........I feel the same way about it. I wasn't second guessing them until the Reflections album came out. I love the sound of Flo and Miss Ross together so much.......one of my besties commanded the TV in '65 to watch the Skelton appearance and his entire family roared with laughter at the dance - he hasn't lived it down since. Personally, I think it's adorable. I played More Hits last night - I love that album, and really never realized how much Andantes there is on there. I now understand why some don't or won't accept The Andantes legit credits - it pains me that Flo & Mary are not on Whisper You Love Me Boy.........crazy eh?
I think the Skelton clip is darling. The choreography is some of the smoothest and most elegant I recall my girls doing. Im not in the habit of second guessing what should or should not have been released. As a 9 or 10 yr old kid I REALLY didn't care.
i liked it and Honey Boy then as much as I do now.

[supremester]

I agree about the lyric, but, like she is so adept at, makes the lyric speak to the listener so plaintively and directly, that you don't even notice that she gets three syllables out of a one syllable word. It's the perfect pop record - I think probably Motown's overall best record ever. And it was HUGE - HDH wasted no time shamelessly borrowing from it for I'm Ready For Love - ditto Frank Wilson for All I Need. YCHL was their biggest record since Baby Love, but it stunk live. They simply could not recreate the feeling live and it was in and out of the act in a year. Out for good in two years. She makes it work beautifully today, though.
I think You Can’t Hurry Love is a sequel to Mother Dear, but unlike most sequels, far superior. The girl in Mother Dear is a pathetic and helpless victim. The lyrics to You Can’t Hurry Love are melodramatic in the verses, but the chorus is grounded in good common sense suggesting a dialogue between the mother and the daughter.

[jobeterob]

I once raised the fact that the Supremes could not duplicate the sound of You Can't Hurry Love live; one of the Universal people said that was because the background singers were not the same and not to ask a lot more questions or I might hear answers I didn't like. Which meant the Andantes are on a lot more songs than we knew.

You also mention liking the pairing of the Ross/Ballard voices; I completely agree; those songs were the best of the Supremes moments. That is one of the reasons Wilson was overlooked; the other two voices were the standouts and mixed/blended so well together.

The sound that I thought was the Supremes was often the sound of Diana Ross and the Andantes and I am listening to most of the Supremes songs with a different realization of who might be there.

[supremester]

Their routines didn't do much for me but I liked them - except, Love Is Like An Itching....... what a horrible presentation of that song! The gowns were wrong and that "shooing the chintzes away" move???? WTF was THAT? Mother Dear is stronger when I play it than when I think about it. I still think Heartaches was the correct choice and doing it on Sullivan would have helped. This would be the last appearance where they only sang one song!
LHO - 'Smooth' and 'elegant' absolutely nail it. And I've always felt this great routine really could have put this one on top. It seemed like one of those performances--like STOP! on Hollywood Palace, BACK IN MY ARMS AGAIN on Hullabaloo, and YOU CAN'T HURRY LOVE on The Ed Sullivan Show--when the song itself becomes very closely identified with the TV performance. MOTHER DEAR, at first blush, seems like a fairly straight-forward routine but there's so much going on in it that it's fairly complex. Diana, Mary, & Flo are so in synch with their steps, and their timing seems spot-on. And I don't think they were ever this sexy on TV together, before or after. For once, they are all the main focus of a routine--Flo & Mary: smooth, hypnotic, and oh-so-cool, while Diana is like a beautiful cobra itchin' & twitchin' as she slithers through the dance and begins to coil up. Personally, I can't hear MOTHER DEAR without visualizing this performance. I may well be in a minority of one on that aspect but I think song & dance together were always crucial to The Supremes' popularity, just as their personalities and beauty were.

By the same token, unfortunately, I think something like the dance routine to LOVE IS LIKE AN ITCHING IN MY HEART as performed on The Ed Sullivan Show only served to thwart sales of that stellar recording. There was almost no routine for that one, and what was there didn't play, didn't work, didn't sell.

[roger]

I always thought the Vandellas' "I'm Ready For Love" was a sequel to "You Can't Hurry Love." It's a shame HDH didn't cut a version on the Supremes.

Over the years I've come to the conclusion that with "You Can't Hurry Love" HDH were carrying on the musical theme of "Take Me In Your Arms" that they had recorded on KIM WESTON the previous year ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omnLs0npy6g
Roger

[antceleb12]

What I love about "Mother Dear" is that Mary and Flo's voices were put to great use. Like "Going Down," they use their higher registers, which I wish was incorporated into more of their songs. I think it's one of their most intricate background parts. And I agree with LHO and Methuselah about the choreography. It's one of their cleanest, sharpest routines, in my opinion. The background is terribly drab, though!

[smark21]

I once raised the fact that the Supremes could not duplicate the sound of You Can't Hurry Love live; one of the Universal people said that was because the background singers were not the same and not to ask a lot more questions or I might hear answers I didn't like. Which meant the Andantes are on a lot more songs than we knew.

You also mention liking the pairing of the Ross/Ballard voices; I completely agree; those songs were the best of the Supremes moments. That is one of the reasons Wilson was overlooked; the other two voices were the standouts and mixed/blended so well together.

The sound that I thought was the Supremes was often the sound of Diana Ross and the Andantes and I am listening to most of the Supremes songs with a different realization of who might be there.

IT’s not because of the voices that You Can’t Hurry Love never worked well in the live shows. IT’s because the playing of the Funk Bros. on the record and the production and recording of the record are so outstanding that it’s hard for the song to be as strong live, especially when the Supremes performed with a Vegas type big band behind them or with pick up players. Jobetrob, you really need to give your ear an education and listen to more than just vocals. Listen to the music and the arrangements and what’s going on behind the voices. Try your best to just out the voices for awhile. It will change how you hear a recording from thereonout if you’re serious in this endeavor.

[smark21]

But when it comes to voices, I prefer the Ross/Wilson vocal blend and/or contrast, because they have different sounds that work well together. Flo is often too loud and shrill for me [[though she had some fine moments such as Come See About Me). I think she’s way overrated as a singer and that the group sound in their live shows improved once Flo was fired because Cindy blended with Mary and their sound provided a nice contrast to Diana’s.

[floyjoy678]

But when it comes to voices, I prefer the Ross/Wilson vocal blend and/or contrast, because they have different sounds that work well together. Flo is often too loud and shrill for me [[though she had some fine moments such as Come See About Me). I think she’s way overrated as a singer and that the group sound in their live shows improved once Flo was fired because Cindy blended with Mary and their sound provided a nice contrast to Diana’s.

See I feel quite the opposite I like the Diana/Flo blend better, they both had similar distinct voices. I think if Flo had better training with her voice it would have been almost as good as Diana's. I really don't like Mary's voice on those 60's recordings, very bland in my opinion and nothing special about it and some songs where I hear her in the back screeching to hit a certain note and ruins the background, it makes me cringe. That being said I feel she made a MAJOR improvement with her voice in the 70's.

[bradsupremes]

I was never crazy about the live versions of "You Can't Hurry Love." Something was definitely missing when performed live. Mary and Flo's blend on the song just didn't match Mary and Marlene's blend on the record. In fact, Mary and Marlene had probably the best blend. Their voices truly fit together in creating a balance and smooth background vocals. It's no wonder Motown used Marlene as Flo's onstage replacement in 1966 and early 1967 and considered her as first choice to replace Flo.

[skooldem1]

The only thing that was wrong in most performances of "You can't hurry love" was the fact that it was sung at a much faster tempo than the original recording. Diana could barely keep up. It most cases, the band and the background vocals were fine. The best was on the Ed Sullivan show. The worst was probably the Copa 67 concert.

[antceleb12]

See, I like the Copa performance, but I do not like the Roostertail performance. Mary & Flo's blend was bad, and it was way too fast. Flo was on the Italian recording, and Mary and Flo sound good together on that one.

With Mary and Cindy, Mary was the only one you could hear most of the time, and that always bothered me. I never really knew what Cindy's voice sounded like until Jean came in the picture. In my opinion, Cindy's voice is much weaker [[although she has a rather nice head voice on "Loving Country") than Flo's. I never thought the group's sound was better than when it was DMF.

[jobeterob]

For me, one of the ultimate female group sounds was epitomized by the DMF Supremes.

After Flo left, the magical mix was gone. And sometimes it now appears the magical mix was the Andantes and Diana Ross.

And after Diana, they were just another girl group. But they had some awesome songs.

TheBoyFromXTown posted all those Syreeta songs and it made me wonder about have that sound in the Supremes. Could maybe have kept some Diana-like sound and changed the style.

[Penny]

For me, one of the ultimate female group sounds was epitomized by the DMF Supremes.

After Flo left, the magical mix was gone. And sometimes it now appears the magical mix was the Andantes and Diana Ross.

And after Diana, they were just another girl group. But they had some awesome songs.

TheBoyFromXTown posted all those Syreeta songs and it made me wonder about have that sound in the Supremes. Could maybe have kept some Diana-like sound and changed the style.

I think Diana and Mary should try doing some twerking in their acts right now. It would really increase their visibility and popularity. I'll bet they would get on television.

Penny;)

[smark21]

I think Diana and Mary should try doing some twerking in their acts right now. It would really increase their visibility and popularity. I'll bet they would get on television.

Penny;)

At their age, twerking may be asking too much, but they could shed their clothes and ride a wrecking ball nude during the show.

[supremester]

I agree with Smarkie - DMC live were a much better blend than DMF live. That being said, I enjoy Flo's sound on some records immensely. Mary's rich contralto is essential to many of their greatest sounds and of course WDOLG on record. Live.........eh. I can see why The A's were used so much after Flo left because Cindy's voice was ......light and added little to records - yet, the sound live of DMC was killer. It baffled me at first why Mary would go to such lengths to craft such bold, character assassinating and destructive lies about the use of The A's. I understood her M.O. by 1987 when she got all that pity attention. She's the originator of Diana vs Mary and tearing one Supreme down to build up another- not to mention denigrating and marginalizing the great work of the very underpaid Andantes. Imagine how important it was to her to build that huge group of lies about The A's - never suspecting the truth would come out and expose her as the real knife-in-the-back Supreme willing to do or say anything to feather her nest while getting pity attention for herself and qualifying the success of others. I wonder if she ever lived in The Brewster Projects even. She was the sexy one, though. My boyfriend says Mary was the only truly sexy Supreme in the classic sense of the word. He likes...........'that' also.

[jobeterob]

I agree with Smarkie - DMC live were a much better blend than DMF live. That being said, I enjoy Flo's sound on some records immensely. Mary's rich contralto is essential to many of their greatest sounds and of course WDOLG on record. Live.........eh. I can see why The A's were used so much after Flo left because Cindy's voice was ......light and added little to records - yet, the sound live of DMC was killer. It baffled me at first why Mary would go to such lengths to craft such bold, character assassinating and destructive lies about the use of The A's. I understood her M.O. by 1987 when she got all that pity attention. She's the originator of Diana vs Mary and tearing one Supreme down to build up another- not to mention denigrating and marginalizing the great work of the very underpaid Andantes. Imagine how important it was to her to build that huge group of lies about The A's - never suspecting the truth would come out and expose her as the real knife-in-the-back Supreme willing to do or say anything to feather her nest while getting pity attention for herself and qualifying the success of others. I wonder if she ever lived in The Brewster Projects even. She was the sexy one, though. My boyfriend says Mary was the only truly sexy Supreme in the classic sense of the word. He likes...........'that' also.

What bold and character assassinating lies did Mary construct about the Andantes? Wondering.

[supremester]

That they were only used after Flo left to get the public used to Diane's voice without Mary & Cindy to ease her transition to a solo career and implied that once rid of the yoke of having to work under Diane's rule, The A's were no longer used [[even though they are on the first single and more than half of the first album.) She is therefore taking credit for the work, talent and sound of others on dozens of songs which I think is professionally immoral. It also fits in with her misleading accounts of Motown 25 and RTL. Ever the victim, one wonders exactly what was true.

[jobeterob]

That they were only used after Flo left to get the public used to Diane's voice without Mary & Cindy to ease her transition to a solo career and implied that once rid of the yoke of having to work under Diane's rule, The A's were no longer used [[even though they are on the first single and more than half of the first album.) She is therefore taking credit for the work, talent and sound of others on dozens of songs which I think is professionally immoral. It also fits in with her misleading accounts of Motown 25 and RTL. Ever the victim, one wonders exactly what was true.

Are we talking half of the album Meet the Supremes or half of the album Where Did Our Love Go?

[jobeterob]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQEcS0YWL_M

[johnjeb]

7286

"Mother Dear" on Red Skelton

[skooldem1]

Are we talking half of the album Meet the Supremes or half of the album Where Did Our Love Go?

The album with "Up the ladder" ?

[jobeterob]

The album with "Up the ladder" ?

Makes sense. Although I think the A's were on some of Meet the Supremes, right.

[antceleb12]

Makes sense. Although I think the A's were on some of Meet the Supremes, right.

Wasn't it Marlene on "Buttered Popcorn?"

[supremester]

Half of Right On.......and on second glance, I really do enjoy the Mother Dear routine......I love Flo's look at the beginning, Mary is cute and Miss Ross is Rossing around........lots of fun
Are we talking half of the album Meet the Supremes or half of the album Where Did Our Love Go?

[rrussi]

I think they didn't issue Mother Dear as a single as that would've been four from the More Hits lp, which already had the three big hits. Doing it twice on TV, however, only helped promote the lp even more, which was a big hit, so maybe a fourth single wouldn't sell so well if everyone had the lp. However, as great as Mother Dear is, the story is a little dated for them by that point. I also agree with Big Al, the Mary Wells' original of Honey Boy is much, much better.

[supremester]

I played Mary's Honey Boy again just now and it doesn't work for me, but I can see how others might like it. I do like her Whisper You Love Me Boy and think it might have hit.

[rrussi]

I like the Dean Martin performance because they did it "live"! I remember this night as I had just come home from seeing Jan & Dean and the Shangri-las perform "live" when we turned on the TV to Dean Martin.

[reese]

I like the Dean Martin performance because they did it "live"! I remember this night as I had just come home from seeing Jan & Dean and the Shangri-las perform "live" when we turned on the TV to Dean Martin.

You and Tony should write a book. I enjoy reading about all of the great concerts you guys went to.

[rrussi]

Oh, thanks reese! Yes, there were many, many shows we went to back then. I still do when I can. I just saw Diana Ross in Orlando on Sept. 3rd.

[supremester]

You saw them LIVE??? I was SO in love with Jan - omg.....for a while more than Ricky Nelson even [[and before George Harrison - yes, I was a tramp in K-3.) Do you recall anything about the show? PS How was Miss Ross in Orlando?

[rod_rick]

[QUOTE=supremester;194928]That they were only used after Flo left to get the public used to Diane's voice without Mary & Cindy to ease her transition to a solo career and implied that once rid of the yoke of having to work under Diane's rule, The A's were no longer used [[even though they are on the first single and more than half of the first album.) She is therefore taking credit for the work, talent and sound of others on dozens of songs which I think is professionally immoral. It also fits in with her misleading accounts of Motown 25 and RTL. Ever the victim, one wonders exactly what was true.[/QUO

It's possible that Mary & Flo recorded the songs that the A's are on. The A's sound is very close to Flo and Mary but it's 3 of the A's compared to Mary & Flo. Also as for approximating the sound live, the producers could reel Flo in and have her sing softer on recording, theyhad no control in live performances that's why they turned her mic down. When Flo sang softer she and Mary had a wonderful blend. Mary & CIndy had wonderful blend when Cindy's mic was balanced. Compare Farewell to Talk of the Town. Also most of the studio recording Mary and Cindy are on the blend is good. Loud is not always better, I had a voice teacher that would say that less is more when it come to vocals

[supremester]

The studio logs are fairly clear on who is on what. Entire albums like Merry Christmas, for example. You're right that The A's - extremely talented, could approximate the sound of Mary & Flo, the drone of The Vandellas, the girl groupiness of The Marvelettes etc. They were outstanding singers. I love both Mary & Flo's voices. Think of WDOLG without Mary: lots of singers could sing her part - but her sound and style is spot on for that record - and I love her live stuff like on Talk Of The Town. On record with Cindy, she sings softly and with a hushed tone to match Cindy but the problem is that Mary's rich alto loses it's personality and they sound, to me, bland and weak. Yes, I know power isn't everything, but I can't think of very many songs I like just them on - including Stoned Love. I loved them on Up The Ladder and know I learn The A's are there. I think they hurt a lot of the JMC tracks - most of what I love by them are really The A's or a mix. Even Nathan Jones has help.

[floyjoy678]

rod_rick I agree with that. When it was first suggested that Marlene replaced Florence on You Can't Hurry Love I went along with it and believed it plus I never liked the backgrounds for that song anyway because of Mary's voice being more upfront but I recently listened to the backgrounds isolated and changed my mind I now think that it was Mary and Florence. Someone even said the studio session log says it's Mary, Diana and Florence. Plus why didn't Mary expose that one in her book if it was true. Same thing with the couple of people who think "Reflections" is Mary and Marlene, Mary goes out of her way in her book to say it was the last single that Florence appears on. And again I agree none of their songs were replicated live. Listen to "Where Did Our Love Go" and then listen to the live version on the Copa Expanded Album, listen to "Come See About Me" and "Baby Love" and then listen to the live performances of it at the Fox Theater. None of them match up with the original recording. Overall until H-D-H, Diana or Mary say anything I just take it as theories.

[bradsupremes]

Session logs don't list the individuals who sang on a particular song. It's either states lead, group and/or voices.

The background vocals for "You Can't Hurry Love" were recorded July 5, 1966. The two other songs recorded during that session included "Come On And See Me" and "Misery Makes Its Home In My Heart." There was additional date for "Come On And See Me" which was when the Andantes were dubbed in. Take a listen to "Misery Makes Its Home In My Heart." Can you hear Flo?

If Mary stated in her book that "Reflections" is the last single Flo sang on, then she clearly forgot about "In And Out Of Love." With the hundreds of songs these ladies recorded, are they going to remember every session clearly and who they sang with? Unless you're Martha Reeves who has the memory of a steel trap, you won't. I mean look at how many women claim to be on "Someday We'll Be Together." It's pretty clear they're not all singing on it.

[rod_rick]

The studio logs are fairly clear on who is on what. Entire albums like Merry Christmas, for example. You're right that The A's - extremely talented, could approximate the sound of Mary & Flo, the drone of The Vandellas, the girl groupiness of The Marvelettes etc. They were outstanding singers. I love both Mary & Flo's voices. Think of WDOLG without Mary: lots of singers could sing her part - but her sound and style is spot on for that record - and I love her live stuff like on Talk Of The Town. On record with Cindy, she sings softly and with a hushed tone to match Cindy but the problem is that Mary's rich alto loses it's personality and they sound, to me, bland and weak. Yes, I know power isn't everything, but I can't think of very many songs I like just them on - including Stoned Love. I loved them on Up The Ladder and know I learn The A's are there. I think they hurt a lot of the JMC tracks - most of what I love by them are really The A's or a mix. Even Nathan Jones has help.

I guess my problem with the logs is that they are still finding things in the vault that others had no idea were there, I don't as much stock in them as others might. Yes I do consider them, but Motown was doing so much recording who really know who is singing behind who. When Mary and other say they recorded certain songs I believe them, now if they were in the final mix or had help who knows. If icould layer background vocals using two cassette recorders I'm sure it was fairly easy to do with four or eight track back in the 60's. I don't mind the A's on some recording I problem was when they were used instead of. A little help never help but why replace the entire group. Up The Ladder To the Roof is a favorite of mine you can hear the A's under Mary and Cindy not instead of. FOr Nathan Jones they had a an additonal singer in the background I believe Cindy said it was Clyde King which did not take away Mary & Cindy's role. As for Mary Mary's rich alto sometime it work and sometime it didn't in the background imo, when they ladies are balanced they all have a teriffic blend. When JMC did Andy Williams they sang UTLTTR and EGTRTL, Cindy was loud in the mix love it because you could hear the blend. Another example of Mary & CIndy blend is Tarzan when they sang Michael Row The Boat A-shore, fantastic. Again its all about balance imo

[rod_rick]

The studio logs are fairly clear on who is on what. Entire albums like Merry Christmas, for example. You're right that The A's - extremely talented, could approximate the sound of Mary & Flo, the drone of The Vandellas, the girl groupiness of The Marvelettes etc. They were outstanding singers. I love both Mary & Flo's voices. Think of WDOLG without Mary: lots of singers could sing her part - but her sound and style is spot on for that record - and I love her live stuff like on Talk Of The Town. On record with Cindy, she sings softly and with a hushed tone to match Cindy but the problem is that Mary's rich alto loses it's personality and they sound, to me, bland and weak. Yes, I know power isn't everything, but I can't think of very many songs I like just them on - including Stoned Love. I loved them on Up The Ladder and know I learn The A's are there. I think they hurt a lot of the JMC tracks - most of what I love by them are really The A's or a mix. Even Nathan Jones has help.

I guess my problem with the logs is that they are still finding things in the vault that others had no idea were there, I don't as much stock in them as others might. Yes I do consider them, but Motown was doing so much recording who really know who is singing behind who. When Mary and other say they recorded certain songs I believe them, now if they were in the final mix or had help who knows. If icould layer background vocals using two cassette recorders I'm sure it was fairly easy to do with four or eight track back in the 60's. I don't mind the A's on some recording I problem was when they were used instead of. A little help never help but why replace the entire group. Up The Ladder To the Roof is a favorite of mine you can hear the A's under Mary and Cindy not instead of. FOr Nathan Jones they had a an additonal singer in the background I believe Cindy said it was Clyde King which did not take away Mary & Cindy's role. As for Mary Mary's rich alto sometime it work and sometime it didn't in the background imo, when they ladies are balanced they all have a teriffic blend. When JMC did Andy Williams they sang UTLTTR and EGTRTL, Cindy was loud in the mix love it because you could hear the blend. Another example of Mary & CIndy blend is Tarzan when they sang Michael Row The Boat A-shore, fantastic. Again its all about balance imo

[floyjoy678]

Brad I haven't listened to "Misery" in a long time, when I get home later I'll have to take a listen. I do know that the first time I heard their version of "Come On and See Me" I right away knew it was the Andantes. Weren't "You Can't Hurry Love" and "You Keep Me Hangin' On" recorded within weeks/days of each other? I just don't understand why they would use Florence for the one song and then decide not to use her for the other. I do know one of them [[HDH) has said he didn't like Florence's voice I just can't remember which one it was that said that. As for not being able to hear Florence on a certain song, what about "Where Did Our Love Go?"? You can just barely make her out under Mary's vocal so are you suggesting she's not on that song either? And I know Mary and Florence recorded a vocal for "In and Out Of Love" but didn't H-D-H cover up their vocals with the Andantes? Though these are all good theories that you guys have, again I'd rather hear it from HDH, Diana or Mary.

[antceleb12]

Brad I haven't listened to "Misery" in a long time, when I get home later I'll have to take a listen. I do know that the first time I heard their version of "Come On and See Me" I right away knew it was the Andantes. Weren't "You Can't Hurry Love" and "You Keep Me Hangin' On" recorded within weeks/days of each other? I just don't understand why they would use Florence for the one song and then decide not to use her for the other. I do know one of them [[HDH) has said he didn't like Florence's voice I just can't remember which one it was that said that. As for not being able to hear Florence on a certain song, what about "Where Did Our Love Go?"? You can just barely make her out under Mary's vocal so are you suggesting she's not on that song either? And I know Mary and Florence recorded a vocal for "In and Out Of Love" but didn't H-D-H cover up their vocals with the Andantes? Though these are all good theories that you guys have, again I'd rather hear it from HDH, Diana or Mary.

I know that with a lot of record companies [[i.e. Phil Spector, being the most infamous case), if an artist was unavailable, he/she/they would be replaced by studio musicians. For instance, "He" was, apparently, supposed to be a group project, but Flo was a no-show, so Berry just left it to Diana. The Andantes' book states that it was one of them [[Marlene, I think?) on "You Can't Hurry love." I have always thought that the back-ups didn't sound like Mary and Flo [[especially when I compare it to the rest of the "A Go Go" album), but that's my ears. I've had a hard time with "Misery," too. Sometimes I think it's Flo, sometimes I think it's an Andante. I also heard that the Andantes were supposed to be mixed onto "The Happening," but Flo convinced Berry not to! :)

[rod_rick]

Brad I haven't listened to "Misery" in a long time, when I get home later I'll have to take a listen. I do know that the first time I heard their version of "Come On and See Me" I right away knew it was the Andantes. Weren't "You Can't Hurry Love" and "You Keep Me Hangin' On" recorded within weeks/days of each other? I just don't understand why they would use Florence for the one song and then decide not to use her for the other. I do know one of them [[HDH) has said he didn't like Florence's voice I just can't remember which one it was that said that. As for not being able to hear Florence on a certain song, what about "Where Did Our Love Go?"? You can just barely make her out under Mary's vocal so are you suggesting she's not on that song either? And I know Mary and Florence recorded a vocal for "In and Out Of Love" but didn't H-D-H cover up their vocals with the Andantes? Though these are all good theories that you guys have, again I'd rather hear it from HDH, Diana or Mary.

Flo is on Where Did Our Love Go she real faint you can hear her on the "Baby Baby's. This when they had Mary up on the mic a Flo a few feet away.

[jobeterob]

Where Did Our Love Go is Diana with Mary on backgrounds like You Keep Me Hangin On and Manhattan are Diana with Flo on backgrounds. That's what it sounds like. If someone else is with them on those songs, it doesn't really matter.

[rod_rick]

Where Did Our Love Go is Diana with Mary on backgrounds like You Keep Me Hangin On and Manhattan are Diana with Flo on backgrounds. That's what it sounds like. If someone else is with them on those songs, it doesn't really matter.

Rob
Actually it does matter because without them you don't have the same sound in the background. Flo is an echo on Where Did Our Love Go, without her the baccking vocal would sound different. Mary is on YKMHO, and Manhattan. Manhattan is sung in two part harmony until the end. Mary help take the edge off of Florence sound because she can sound bright on the top note.

[smark21]

rod_rick I agree with that. When it was first suggested that Marlene replaced Florence on You Can't Hurry Love I went along with it and believed it plus I never liked the backgrounds for that song anyway because of Mary's voice being more upfront but I recently listened to the backgrounds isolated and changed my mind I now think that it was Mary and Florence. Someone even said the studio session log says it's Mary, Diana and Florence. Plus why didn't Mary expose that one in her book if it was true. Same thing with the couple of people who think "Reflections" is Mary and Marlene, Mary goes out of her way in her book to say it was the last single that Florence appears on. And again I agree none of their songs were replicated live. Listen to "Where Did Our Love Go" and then listen to the live version on the Copa Expanded Album, listen to "Come See About Me" and "Baby Love" and then listen to the live performances of it at the Fox Theater. None of them match up with the original recording. Overall until H-D-H, Diana or Mary say anything I just take it as theories.

None of their HDH hits could be replicated live with the band they used for their shows. Even if they had the Andantes or whoever helping out or subbing on background vocals live to recreate the vocal blend of the recording, they would not have been able to recreate the recording? Why? Because the musical arrangements were different as were the musicians. It’s because of the music, not the vocals.

[supremester]

I have a very close bud who is my Flo expert. He has insisted that Flo was not on YCHL and I hadn't really thought about it. I have heard the bgs isolated and am certain it's Mary & Marlene - but I don't care. I love hearing Flo but when I can't and the record is perfect like YCHL, I don't care, but I find it interesting who is on what and that Mary chose to make lies overS.O.P. at Motown into heinous and devious behavior. I hate the bg on Reflections whoever it is - ditto In & Out Of Love. I would have preferred Mary & Flo on all three singles from Reflections.