Sinead O'Connor open letter to Miley Cyrus

[jillfoster]

We've talked many times about the sad state of pop music today, and Sinead has the onions to say something about it, a fascinating, insightful, and ballsy letter:



Dear Miley,

I wasn’t going to write this letter, but today i’ve been dodging phone calls from various newspapers who wished me to remark upon your having said in Rolling Stone your “Wrecking Ball” video was designed to be similar to the one for “Nothing Compares” … So this is what I need to say … And it is said in the spirit of motherliness and with love.

I am extremely concerned for you that those around you have led you to believe, or encouraged you in your own belief, that it is in any way “cool” to be naked and licking sledgehammers in your videos. It is in fact the case that you will obscure your talent by allowing yourself to be pimped, whether it’s the music business or yourself doing the pimping.

Nothing but harm will come in the long run, from allowing yourself to be exploited, and it is absolutely NOT in ANY way an empowerment of yourself or any other young women, for you to send across the message that you are to be valued [[even by you) more for your sexual appeal than your obvious talent.

I am happy to hear I am somewhat of a role model for you and I hope that because of that you will pay close attention to what I am telling you.

The music business doesn’t give a sh– about you, or any of us. They will prostitute you for all you are worth, and cleverly make you think its what YOU wanted.. and when you end up in rehab as a result of being prostituted, “they” will be sunning themselves on their yachts in Antigua, which they bought by selling your body and you will find yourself very alone.

None of the men oggling you give a sh– about you either, do not be fooled. Many’s the woman mistook lust for love. If they want you sexually that doesn’t mean they give a f— about you. All the more true when you unwittingly give the impression you don’t give much of a f— about yourself. And when you employ people who give the impression they don’t give much of a f— about you either. No one who cares about you could support your being pimped.. and that includes you yourself.

Yes, I’m suggesting you don’t care for yourself. That has to change. You ought be protected as a precious young lady by anyone in your employ and anyone around you, including you. This is a dangerous world. We don’t encourage our daughters to walk around naked in it because it makes them prey for animals and less than animals, a distressing majority of whom work in the music industry and its associated media.

You are worth more than your body or your sexual appeal. The world of showbiz doesn’t see things that way, they like things to be seen the other way, whether they are magazines who want you on their cover, or whatever.. Don’t be under any illusions.. ALL of them want you because they’re making money off your youth and your beauty.. which they could not do except for the fact your youth makes you blind to the evils of show business. If you have an innocent heart you can’t recognise those who do not.

I repeat, you have enough talent that you don’t need to let the music business make a prostitute of you. You shouldn’t let them make a fool of you either. Don’t think for a moment that any of them give a flying f— about you. They’re there for the money.. we’re there for the music. It has always been that way and it will always be that way. The sooner a young lady gets to know that, the sooner she can be REALLY in control.

You also said in Rolling Stone that your look is based on mine. The look I chose, I chose on purpose at a time when my record company were encouraging me to do what you have done. I felt I would rather be judged on my talent and not my looks. I am happy that I made that choice, not least because I do not find myself on the proverbial rag heap now that I am almost 47 yrs of age.. which unfortunately many female artists who have based their image around their sexuality, end up on when they reach middle age.

Real empowerment of yourself as a woman would be to in future refuse to exploit your body or your sexuality in order for men to make money from you. I needn’t even ask the question.. I’ve been in the business long enough to know that men are making more money than you are from you getting naked. It’s really not at all cool. And it’s sending dangerous signals to other young women. Please in future say no when you are asked to prostitute yourself. Your body is for you and your boyfriend. It isn’t for every spunk-spewing dirtbag on the net, or every greedy record company executive to buy his mistresses diamonds with.

As for the shedding of the Hannah Montana image.. whoever is telling you getting naked is the way to do that does absolutely NOT respect your talent, or you as a young lady. Your records are good enough for you not to need any shedding of Hannah Montana. She’s waaaaaaay gone by now.. Not because you got naked but because you make great records.

Whether we like it or not, us females in the industry are role models and as such we have to be extremely careful what messages we send to other women. The message you keep sending is that it’s somehow cool to be prostituted.. it’s so not cool Miley.. it’s dangerous. Women are to be valued for so much more than their sexuality. we aren’t merely objects of desire. I would be encouraging you to send healthier messages to your peers.. that they and you are worth more than what is currently going on in your career. Kindly fire any motherf—er who hasn’t expressed alarm, because they don’t care about you.

[R. Mark Desjardins]

Wise words from a person who knows a thing or two about being used then discarded. Hopefully Miley takes this advice to heart.

[Roberta75]

Lest we forget that Sinead O Conner ripped a photo of the Pope up on Saturday night live which probably did more damage to her career than Miley twerking on TV which I thought was a hoot, Mileys young and expressing herself and 100 time wealthier than Sinead O conner.

Roberta

[Roberta75]

Check out Mileys latest photo shoot. It sure made me blush lol.

http://terrysdiary.com

[Kamasu_Jr]

Hmmmmm.... What would I want if I were Miley? To be super wealthy and much discussed in the media or to be working at McDonald's for above minimum wage but I got a nice uniform and my dignity?

Damnit give me the millions and I can buy my own McDonald's and make it dignified. And I can always become respected later on when I'm forty like Cher and Madonna did. Me really thinks Sinead O' Conner is trying to grab some publicity for herself by starting something with Miley.

And why are we discussing Miley on Soulful Detroit? Miley is everywhere in the media. She has lots of people talking about her already. Again, why do we need to discuss her on Soulful Detroit? She's not from Detroit; She ain't fine, has never cut anything soulful and isn't relevant to many here.

[jobeterob]

Cher is talking lots of Miley too; all because Cher has a new CD too.

All great publicity. It is what is expected of them by their "employers".

[Soul Sister]

Ms. O'Connor speaks wise words, she's given Miley the truth as she experienced it herself, good for her for trying to educated a naiive little girl about the real music industry!
Her wisdom and generosity in sharing that with Miley is what IS cool!

Right on!

S.S.
***

[soulster]

Before all of you heap tons of praise on Sinead O'Connor, remember that she is a joke. Why? A couple of years ago, she placed an ad on her Facebook account that she desperately wanted to find a mate, any man, have a relationship with her, except that it would have to include anal sex with her. This made worldwide news, too. Anyone remember this?

So, Ms. O'Connor, is not qualified to give anyone advice on how to conduct herself. In case you think i'm making it up: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/30/sinead_n_941808.html

[Soul Sister]

Soulster,
So even if that's true about O'Connor's personal life a woman in her late 40's what's that got to do with her pulling Miley's coat to shady operations of the music industry low life's and their practices? Any young aspiring recording artist needs to know this. They need to go into this business with their eyes open to all the shady practices before they make any decisions one way or another.

S.S.
***

[Jerry Oz]

If a drunk tells me that drinking will ruin my life, it is still sage advice. If O'Connor was wrong about anything that she said, I cannot find it. Cyrus has every right to make a fool of herself, but the trickle down impact of her representation of herself on others will be sad. Kids imitate their role models, that's almost an immutable fact of life. And the more publicity Cyrus gets for her behavior, the bolder her fans will become to behave in similar manner. It's unnecessary and it definitely should not be considered someone pushing the boundaries of art.

[timmyfunk]

I will have to agree. SOC's life may not be one to idolize, but that doesn't take any power out of her words. No one can deny the truth in the letter SOC wrote. And in the end, that's all that matters.

[skooldem1]

I despise "public" letters. If she really wanted to reach out to Miley, she should have contacted Miley directly.

[soulster]

Soulster,
So even if that's true about O'Connor's personal life a woman in her late 40's what's that got to do with her pulling Miley's coat to shady operations of the music industry low life's and their practices? Any young aspiring recording artist needs to know this. They need to go into this business with their eyes open to all the shady practices before they make any decisions one way or another.

S.S.
***
It's hypocritical.

Ms. Cryus never asked Sinead O'Connor for advice. If she was serious, she would have contacted her privately, and not made a public spectacle of it, especially with her history.

[soulster]

I despise "public" letters. If she really wanted to reach out to Miley, she should have contacted Miley directly.
Exactly!

I think the problem here is that people just don't like Miley's twerking and being naked in a video. People still have trouble accepting nudity or displays of sexual behavior. But, for some reason, they give the other person a pass on her very public desires for anal sex.

[Jerry Oz]

Soulster, if anybody turned on the VMAs expecting to see it, that would be one thing. Knowing who the audience was that night, it was a bit of grandstanding for the "new" Miley to debut at that time. Whether I'm comfortable with her behavior is not the point. Parents have the right to decide what their kids are exposed to and many of them lost it that night without warning.

Anybody that wants to see a stripper dancing can find it in any of thousands of available outlets. I guarantee you that not one person anticipated finding it during an awards show. In my opinion, she's not to be applauded for being uninhibited; she's to be chastised for being a blatant opportunist.

[skooldem1]

Did she really do anything that has never been done before on the MTV awards- except for a bad attempt at twerking?

[skooldem1]

Soulster, if anybody turned on the VMAs expecting to see it, that would be one thing. Knowing who the audience was that night, it was a bit of grandstanding for the "new" Miley to debut at that time. Whether I'm comfortable with her behavior is not the point. Parents have the right to decide what their kids are exposed to and many of them lost it that night without warning.


Quite the contrary. People tune into the MTV awards to see what the "controversial" performance of the year will be.

[Jerry Oz]

I'll disagree from the standpoint that while there have been faux controversial performances [[as this one is), it's not every year that someone goes over the line. The reason I consider it to be "faux controversy" is because the tabloid media talks about how outrageous it was even as they show it repeatedly at even earlier hours for even younger eyes to see. It was a ratings bananza for Extra, Entertainment Tonight, and Access Hollywood. However, I suggest that it was low hanging fruit for someone to go where she went. She's not seen by most as an "adult" or mature performer. Actually, to the contrary, she's seen by many as immature and somewhat wacky...

[Soul Sister]

At first I had no problem with it, Miley is a grown woman now at least in age to do what she chooses for herself. I didn't see what the big deal was, many others do the same thing in video's and onstage.

On the other hand, she's getting a "free" education from O'Connor that I think was generous for O'Connor to take the time to educate Miley. O'Connor's truth and personal experience with the music business is right on. It is very important for Miley and others to take a close look at that. There is nothing else to say after that, that sage letter says it all. Miley and anyone else can make their choices to take it in account or foolishly ignore it.
Younger generation minds may see it differently for now and see it another way later on.

S.S.
***

[jobeterob]

Miley is at the top of the charts; she is up there with Justin Bieber, just like Diana Ross was in 1964 and 1980.

She had a CD coming out, a single, she did this to make a splash.

Does SOC have a new CD coming out? Even if the words are wise, why are they public?

[Jerry Oz]

On the surface, it is fair to ask why it was made public. However, maybe she wasn't writing it to Cyrus, but to the next artist. You all know how this turns out in the end: For young female acts, this sort of performance will be expected because for every one that does not do it, there will be ten who will. It's like "putting out" for money. That's where O'Connor's words have merit. With that being said, it is a free country and people can make money however they choose, just as others can either support it or discourage it by how they spend their loot.

[Soul Sister]

jobeterob,
I guess you'd have to ask her that question.
Maybe they are public to educate all young women and young artists everywhere to the practices of the music business. If so, then that's a good reason.

You all can argue it all day long, have fun!

All that's important is the truth is the truth and the beat still goes on the same way in the music business. The way it's always been. The Artist's are always on the losing end and that's truly sad.

You all got it! :) You can all run with it like in the insane Supreme threads, lol.............

HAVE BIG FUN!!!

S.S.
***

[Kamasu_Jr]

Miley responded , in essence she told O' Connor she appreciates the advice, but she's got it under control. She said she's not a veteran to show business, and she knows who she is and what she wants, so Sinead need not preach to her.

[Roberta75]

And the fued escalates with Sinead threatning legal action against Mileys tweats. . Sinead has an upcoming tour so im sure this "open letter" is bringing her a lot more attention and publicity that she couldnt usually get. I have to say a private letter or call would have been more dignified imo.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/life/people/2013/10/03/miley-sinead-round-three/2918903/

[Roberta75]

Id hardly call Sinead public latest open letter on facebook page setting an example

"I have no interest whatsoever in meeting you. You had plenty of time yesterday to abuse Amanda Bynes .. an entirely innocent party.. and myself.. who also did nothing to deserve your abuse.. along with every other sufferer of mental health problems and every person who suffered abuse at the hands of priests.
You can take five minutes today between g- string fuckin’ changes to publicly apologise and remove your abusive tweets. If you do not then you don’t give a shit who you mock and what damage you do by being so ignorant. When you publicly apologise to Amanda and myself and all mental health sufferers as well as all who were abused by priests that will end the matter as far as I am concerned.
what you did yesterday was designed to damage me and my career and has caused me enormous distress and harassment and has potential to damage my career, since you deliberately gave the impression those tweets of mine were not two years old but reflect my current condition. If you cannot apologize I will have no choice but to bring legal proceedings against you since it is extremely hard to be given work when people think one is suffering from mental illness.
I have no interest in or desire to cause you trouble but if you do not apologise for having deliberately tried to cause me hurt and trouble personally and professionally I will have to bring pressure upon you.
When you end up in the psych ward or rehab I’ll be happy to visit you.. and would not lower myself to mock you.
Be a proper woman and make the public apologies I have listed above."

[Roberta75]

And just as I guessed Sinead has a upcomming tour so this fued with Mileys getting her name in the news.

https://www.facebook.com/sineadoconnor/app_123966167614127

[smark21]

Sinead has some wise words to offer in her first open letter, but her motivations for posting it are suspect IMO. Miley Cyrus and her promotion team have done an amazing job promoting Miley and her new image. It’s been over a month since her MTV VMA performance and people are still talking about it as well as her follow up antics. She’s managed to completely steal the spotlight from Lady Gaga, no shrinking violet when it comes to seeking out publicity, and Miley is much more fun and a hell of a lot less pretentious. For her sake hopefully Miley won’t end up a near zombie like Britney and she truly has control over her marketing and image. As for Sinead, she’s just using all the buzz Miley has created to generate some buzz for herself. So I get why Miley is not terribly impressed with Sinead’s unsolicited advise. Miley’s response by mocking Sinead’s bouts with mental illness are immature and a low blow, but Sinead should be old enough now to realize that when you offer unsolicited advise in a public matter, the recipient of the advise may not take kindly to your words. I rather like the new Miley; there’s a cartoonish quality to her staging in her performances; she looks like she’s having fun and in on the joke. Hopefully that’s the case. Tomorrow night she hosts and performs on Saturday Night Live. I wouldn’t be surprised the SNL writers are quickly writing a Miley meets Sinead skit for the show.

[Roberta75]

Sinead has some wise words to offer in her first open letter, but her motivations for posting it are suspect IMO. Miley Cyrus and her promotion team have done an amazing job promoting Miley and her new image. It’s been over a month since her MTV VMA performance and people are still talking about it as well as her follow up antics. She’s managed to completely steal the spotlight from Lady Gaga, no shrinking violet when it comes to seeking out publicity, and Miley is much more fun and a hell of a lot less pretentious. For her sake hopefully Miley won’t end up a near zombie like Britney and she truly has control over her marketing and image. As for Sinead, she’s just using all the buzz Miley has created to generate some buzz for herself. So I get why Miley is not terribly impressed with Sinead’s unsolicited advise. Miley’s response by mocking Sinead’s bouts with mental illness are immature and a low blow, but Sinead should be old enough now to realize that when you offer unsolicited advise in a public matter, the recipient of the advise may not take kindly to your words. I rather like the new Miley; there’s a cartoonish quality to her staging in her performances; she looks like she’s having fun and in on the joke. Hopefully that’s the case. Tomorrow night she hosts and performs on Saturday Night Live. I wouldn’t be surprised the SNL writers are quickly writing a Miley meets Sinead skit for the show.

Very well written smarts21 and in Mileys defense Sinead compare Miley to a prostitute which was real immature of Sinead imo. Here is another excerpt from her facebooks page:
Miley… Really? Who the f*&k is advising you? Because taking me on is even more fuckin' stupid than behaving like a prostitute and calling it feminism.

[gary_james]

I think Sinead is working on a comeback, and this letter is part of the machine.

[soulster]

Soulster, if anybody turned on the VMAs expecting to see it, that would be one thing. Knowing who the audience was that night, it was a bit of grandstanding for the "new" Miley to debut at that time. Whether I'm comfortable with her behavior is not the point. Parents have the right to decide what their kids are exposed to and many of them lost it that night without warning.

Anybody that wants to see a stripper dancing can find it in any of thousands of available outlets. I guarantee you that not one person anticipated finding it during an awards show. In my opinion, she's not to be applauded for being uninhibited; she's to be chastised for being a blatant opportunist. Naw, man! The video Music Awards targets the very audience who listens to her music. And, as far as what the video was, you sis not see any privates. It's also like teens and twenty-somethings haven't seen the human body naked. C'mon! We live in the age of the internet. Porn is so available that anyone can click or swipe a couple of times and see anything they want. And, most have had sex anyway, or have seen their friends engage in sexual behavior. So, when you compare that with a video of someone swinging on a demolition ball, and you can't see anything, what's the big deal?

[soulster]

Miley responded , in essence she told O' Connor she appreciates the advice, but she's got it under control. She said she's not a veteran to show business, and she knows who she is and what she wants, so Sinead need not preach to her. Yes! Miley's been in the business a long while, as her acky-breaky dad was, and she knows what it's all about. She's has probably seen tons of things. O'Connor's advise was not needed, nor was it asked for. And, again, O'Connor should keep in mind the things she's done to screw he own career up.

[Roberta75]

entertainment weekly just gave Mileys new cd a rave review.

Roberta

[soulster]

entertainment weekly just gave Mileys new cd a rave review.

Roberta

I just sampled it. "Wrecking Ball" is OK. The only two songs I would actually buy are "#GETITRIGHT" and "On My Own". I think the rest of the album is pretty bad.

[144man]

Yes! Miley's been in the business a long while, as her acky-breaky dad was, and she knows what it's all about. She's has probably seen tons of things. O'Connor's advise was not needed, nor was it asked for. And, again, O'Connor should keep in mind the things she's done to screw he own career up.

It's a wise person who learns from other people's mistakes.

[MrTopCat]

I knew something was up and there ya have it. Sinead has a tour coming up very soon, so why not try to ride the Miley publicity horse? Pretty desperate if you ask me. I saw a clip from an Irish talk show from a few days ago where she insults Simon Cowell and Louis Walsh and blames them for the state of the music industry today. Very mature. What a role model... WOW!

[splanky]

I guess I'm going to have to pull up Sinead's Nothing Compares... on youtube today and see
if I can see Miley's inspiration. Hm...Sinead riding on Miley's g-string like she rode Prince's
jock strap decades ago..even had the nerve to say she alone rescued his career then. This is
some other sh*t. Hm. Miley might be making a fool of herself but 1) she seems to be more
in control of herself than say, Amanda Byrnes, 2) she's chosen a potentially life long career
that allows for whatever excesses and extremes she goes through. It's not as if she was some anonymous 30 + woman being taken to task by a possible employer for some nearly nude twerking video she posted on facebook when she was 23. And then 3) the only problem I have with Miley twerking is that she doesn't have the equipment to deliver the
package if you know what I mean. Anyway, in this day and age with even Bjork passe in
most corners, how is Sinead still relevant?...

[MrTopCat]

That's the thing, she's not relevant anymore, hence the open letter. She's trying to make herself relevant. Pretty sad.

[timmyfunk]

Why should the letter be private? Maybe some up and coming female artist will also read it and wise up and learn from what SOC went through.

[Roberta75]

Why should the letter be private? Maybe some up and coming female artist will also read it and wise up and learn from what SOC went through.

Well they'll certainly learn how to cuss from the foul mouthed Sinead.

[soulster]

I guess I'm going to have to pull up Sinead's Nothing Compares... on youtube today and see
if I can see Miley's inspiration. Hm...Sinead riding on Miley's g-string like she rode Prince's
jock strap decades ago..even had the nerve to say she alone rescued his career then. This is
some other sh*t. Hm. Miley might be making a fool of herself but 1) she seems to be more
in control of herself than say, Amanda Byrnes, 2) she's chosen a potentially life long career
that allows for whatever excesses and extremes she goes through. It's not as if she was some anonymous 30 + woman being taken to task by a possible employer for some nearly nude twerking video she posted on facebook when she was 23. And then 3) the only problem I have with Miley twerking is that she doesn't have the equipment to deliver the
package if you know what I mean. Anyway, in this day and age with even Bjork passe in
most corners, how is Sinead still relevant?... I think you nailed it!

[timmyfunk]

Well they'll certainly learn how to cuss from the foul mouthed Sinead.

Or, they'll learn to take charge of their careers better and manage it more under their own terms. Miley looks like anything but a serious pop artist. Like Madonna, she makes more news for what she does outside the studio than inside.

[Soul Sister]

timmyfunk,
That was my point too. You get the importance of that. Thank you!

S.S.
***

[soulster]

Or, they'll learn to take charge of their careers better and manage it more under their own terms. Miley looks like anything but a serious pop artist. Like Madonna, she makes more news for what she does outside the studio than inside. Madonna is known [[inside the industry) for being very hands-on in the studio, and has been that way from day one. She is involved during every step of the process from hiring musicians to the mastering stage. But, all you ever hear about is adoptions and stuff. That's the public's and the media's fault.

[smark21]

Based on her performance on last night’s Saturday Night Live, it seems Miley has a good grasp on her image and how it’s being used. The first clip in which her song/video “We Can’t Stop” has been turned into a song about the Government shut down is pretty funny.
http://www.eonline.com/news/467247/miley-cyrus-jokes-about-her-mtv-vma-performance-parodies-we-can-t-stop-on-saturday-night-live

[smark21]

Here’s one critic siding with Miley Cyrus and against the attempted slut shaming of her:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/06/arts/music/get-back-and-just-let-miley-cyrus-grow-up.html?ref=arts

[antceleb12]

Lest we forget that Sinead O Conner ripped a photo of the Pope up on Saturday night live which probably did more damage to her career than Miley twerking on TV which I thought was a hoot, Mileys young and expressing herself and 100 time wealthier than Sinead O conner.

Roberta

Roberta,

Not that I agree with her methods, but Sinead ripped up the photo of the Pope in defiance to the cover-ups of the sexual abuse priests committed in a Catholic church. Miley's twerking on TV with a 30+ year old man and a bunch of life-sized stuffed animals is not proving a point except that she's desperate to be seen as something she's not - an adult. I'm young and I like to express myself, but I don't need to skimp around in flesh-toned underwear and gyrate my body all over the place to do so.

In regards to Sinead's own life, I'd say her past experiences and life decisions give support to this letter. I mean, who knows about poor decision making and being used by the industry better than someone who has been through it all? Unless she's still doing these things, I don't think it's fair to hold her past against her when she's trying to help someone younger. Especially when her father is saying that it's OK for her to be doing what she's doing.

[soulster]

Roberta,

Not that I agree with her methods, but Sinead ripped up the photo of the Pope in defiance to the cover-ups of the sexual abuse priests committed in a Catholic church.

I don't care that she ripped up the Pope's picture. I had no respect for the guy anyway. Perhaps she, herself, was violated by a church official. has she ever said anything like this? If it happened to her, it all makes sense, including her erratic behaviour over the years.


Miley's twerking on TV with a 30+ year old man and a bunch of life-sized stuffed animals is not proving a point except that she's desperate to be seen as something she's not - an adult.

There have been a LOT of adults older than Miley who have done silly things like she has. her advantage is that she is only 20 years old. I do not care in the man is around 30. So what? His wife doesn't care, and her father doesn't care. It's just show biz! It's not like they were naked. It was calculated to get noticed, and to break from her Hannah Montana image. She doesn't want that sweet girl image.


I'm young and I like to express myself, but I don't need to skimp around in flesh-toned underwear and gyrate my body all over the place to do so.

Well, don't do it, then. Even if they aren't famous or in the spotlight, some young women like it.


In regards to Sinead's own life, I'd say her past experiences and life decisions give support to this letter. I mean, who knows about poor decision making and being used by the industry better than someone who has been through it all? Unless she's still doing these things, I don't think it's fair to hold her past against her when she's trying to help someone younger. Especially when her father is saying that it's OK for her to be doing what she's doing.
Bottom line: Miley did not ask Sinead for any advice, nor do they even know each other. Sinead is the last person to be giving anyone advice, especially after her public personal about wanting anal sex. Nothing wrong if she likes it, but...

[antceleb12]

I don't care that she ripped up the Pope's picture. I had no respect for the guy anyway. Perhaps she, herself, was violated by a church official. has she ever said anything like this? If it happened to her, it all makes sense, including her erratic behaviour over the years.



There have been a LOT of adults older than Miley who have done silly things like she has. her advantage is that she is only 20 years old. I do not care in the man is around 30. So what? His wife doesn't care, and her father doesn't care. It's just show biz! It's not like they were naked. It was calculated to get noticed, and to break from her Hannah Montana image. She doesn't want that sweet girl image.



Well, don't do it, then. Even if they aren't famous or in the spotlight, some young women like it.


Bottom line: Miley did not ask Sinead for any advice, nor do they even know each other. Sinead is the last person to be giving anyone advice, especially after her public personal about wanting anal sex. Nothing wrong if she likes it, but...

Miley may not want to be Hannah Montana anymore, but being as powerful of an influence as she is over young girls, she has a responsibility to not be shaking her you-know-what on television. As a teacher, I see so many young kids that look up to these stars who don't give a flying crap about how the repercussions of their actions, and it shows big time with kids. There is a loss of morality today, and celebrities and the media are not making it any better. It should not be acceptable for any woman or man, girl or boy [[whether it's someone Miley's age or older) to objectify and disrespect themselves that way. I don't care if her father was OK with it, I don't care if Robin's wife was OK with it - it's teaching the youth [[and I'm seeing it first-hand) that being sexually desirable and acting wild with no thought about your actions is acceptable! And it's not. As a role model [[and a celebrity is a role model to somebody somewhere), a celebrity has the opportunity to have profound influence on culture and socially-acceptable values and attitudes. In the spotlight, by "shaking it" - while wearing basically nothing - Miley's putting her body before her talent, which is CONSTANTLY reinforced by the media and it should not be happening. You don't see Robin Thicke or Justin Timberlake taking it off. No, instead, they surround themselves with pretty, young girls [[who are usually scantily clad, as well) and position themselves as being superior by doing so. The message it's sending out is damaging.

Miley did not ask for advice, but Sinead gave it out of concern - whether or not she's being hypocritical or not. Miley responded horribly [[so did Sinead), and instead of intelligently addressing her criticisms, she blasted Sinead with F-bombs via Twitter. Doesn't sound like someone who's in control.

Bottom line: Miley is in a position where she can use her fame to do good; to help fight sexualization of women in the media; to put out respectable music [[her songs talk about doing lines in the bathroom, for Heaven's sake!!). Instead, she's shaking her body, partying and carrying on for the whole world to see. Yes, she's twenty years old and can make her own decisions, blah-blah-blah. But it doesn't mean she SHOULD be making those decisions.

[soulster]

Miley may not want to be Hannah Montana anymore, but being as powerful of an influence as she is over young girls, she has a responsibility to not be shaking her you-know-what on television.

Does she have a responsibility, or is it the responsibility of the parents to teach their kids to have the smarts to see things for what they are? No, It is NOT the responsibility of an artist to set examples. That is like a sentence to being in a prison where one is not allowed to do what they want. Dammit! If an ADULT Miley wants to twerk Robin Thicke on a stage, so what! You don't think teens see worse on the internet? You think some 13-year old girl is going to twerk her biology teacher in class?


As a teacher, I see so many young kids that look up to these stars who don't give a flying crap about how the repercussions of their actions, and it shows big time with kids.

That's on the parents.


There is a loss of morality today,

I'm done with the discussion with you. The second someone tries to bring in that very subjective argument of "moraltiy", it's all over. It always has religious overtones, and is the intellectually lazy way out of an argument.

[Roberta75]

Miley Cyrus or any other young star or sports star does not have a responsibility to be a role model and shouldnt be role models imo. Parents have a responsibilitty to be the best role model to they children.
Blaming celebrities is a real easy excuse if you ask me. Young people should be influence by people who are real involved in they day to day lives like parents and teachers and pastors and charity workers and missionaries. A teenager with with good parents or a good parent who has been brought up right and brought up to respect themselves and others and to have to have goals isnt likely to dress and dance like Miley Cyrus just because they see her "act" on a TV music award show.

I bet some of those parents that are hollering at Miley and condemming Miley have no problem taking they kids to the shooting range or having guns in they homes which is much more harmful than Miley Cyrus twerking on a TV award show.

If you raise your kids to have self respect and to have good values then nobody on TV or a sportsfield or a basketball court or a movie is going to force a child to act wild or go out and have unsafe sex.

Roberta

[Roberta75]

Does she have a responsibility, or is it the responsibility of the parents to teach their kids to have the smarts to see things for what they are? No, It is NOT the responsibility of an artist to set examples. That is like a sentence to being in a prison where one is not allowed to do what they want. Dammit! If an ADULT Miley wants to twerk Robin Thicke on a stage, so what! You don't think teens see worse on the internet? You think some 13-year old girl is going to twerk her biology teacher in class?



That's on the parents.

,

I'm done with the discussion with you. The second someone tries to bring in that very subjective argument of "moraltiy", it's all over. It always has religious overtones, and is the intellectually lazy way out of an argument.

AMEN Soulster. You and I agree again. Im getting real worried that we are starting to agree on everything lol. Just kidding. :cool:;):D

Fondly,

Roberta

[soulster]

Miley Cyrus or any other young star or sports star does not have a responsibility to be a role model and shouldnt be role models imo. Parents have a responsibilitty to be the best role model to they children.
Blaming celebrities is a real easy excuse if you ask me. Young people should be influence by people who are real involved in they day to day lives like parents and teachers and pastors and charity workers and missionaries. A teenager with with good parents or a good parent who has been brought up right and brought up to respect themselves and others and to have to have goals isnt likely to dress and dance like Miley Cyrus just because they see her "act" on a TV music award show.

I bet some of those parents that are hollering at Miley and condemming Miley have no problem taking they kids to the shooting range or having guns in they homes which is much more harmful than Miley Cyrus twerking on a TV award show.

If you raise your kids to have self respect and to have good values then nobody on TV or a sportsfield or a basketball court or a movie is going to force a child to act wild or go out and have unsafe sex.

Roberta

Thank you! Well stated!

[soulster]

AMEN Soulster. You and I agree again. Im getting real worried that we are starting to agree on everything lol. Just kidding. :cool:;):D

Fondly,

Roberta It's true, though. Our minds are shaped in the home with our parents/guardians. If you don't have that foundation, then all else is probably lost. If you or I became famous, it would be one hell of a burden to try to be a role model. It would not be our responsibility to be anyone's role model. It's another thing if you opt to take on that role yourself, but it is not an obligation.

Miley Cyrus is no longer a child actress. Teens do not look up to her anymore. That is how she wants it. She wants to be a free adult, free to do what she wants. She wants to be free of Hannah Montana. Let her go! Let her twerk. Let her be naked. I don't care. It's just showbiz!

[antceleb12]

I'm done with the discussion with you. The second someone tries to bring in that very subjective argument of "moraltiy", it's all over. It always has religious overtones, and is the intellectually lazy way out of an argument.

Excuse me? Soulster, where did you get religion? Don't put words in my mouth. I'm not bringing religion into this. You can have good morals without being religious. No it does not always have to do with religion. I have plenty of atheist friends who have more morals than Miley appears to have. I never said religion anywhere. Now you're making assumptions and that's not fair. 'Morals' are the decisions and actions that decide what is right and wrong. That's what formal and informal rules and laws are based on. Morals are everywhere - so don't say that you can't have morals without religion. Society NEEDS morals. If we had no sense of what's right or wrong, our society would fall apart.

And I do not appreciate you being so dismissive and assuming you know what I mean without asking.

To you and Roberta, I'm not saying parents don't have responsibility, they do. I believe that wholeheartedly. But at some point, kids are going to be exposed to the media and celebrities. And at some point, teens are going to make the decision to do what they want, despite whatever upbringing their parents give them. Teenagers have a mind of their own, and they DO look up to celebrities, whether they realize it or not. Celebrities have a major impact on style, music, fashion, attitudes to an extent, etc. Obviously, we can't make celebrities set an example, but it would be wise for them to do so.

And, no, age does not make you an adult. Making mature, responsible decisions makes you an adult, and so far, I haven't seen any maturity out of Miley. I'm offended by anyone doing that kind of stuff - be it Miley, Madonna, whoever.

And you can raise your child with the best intentions and teach them right from wrong and everything, but at some point, they're going to think on their own and make their own decisions. At some point, the choices they make are their own responsibility, not the parents'. So Miley is free to make her own choices, but she is responsible for those choices, too. And as much as a parent can tell a child that what Miley did was wrong, teenagers don't always listen to their parents. So blaming parents entirely is not right either.

[antceleb12]

Miley Cyrus is no longer a child actress. Teens do not look up to her anymore. That is how she wants it. She wants to be a free adult, free to do what she wants. She wants to be free of Hannah Montana. Let her go! Let her twerk. Let her be naked. I don't care. It's just showbiz!

1) Teens DO still look up to her.
2) It's not "just" showbiz. I see students coming into school who come in wearing long shorts or skirts, but will change into shorter skirts [[even though their parents don't approve). Where do they get these ideas that it's OK for a 14 year old to be wearing booty shorts? The media, and their friends [[who get those ideas from the media in the first place).

[soulster]

I will add that Sinead O'Conner has been the aggressor here. After her initial letter, Cyrus tweeted that they could "meet up" to discuss this. But, O'Connor decided to make another public message and used the f-word.

You tell me who the sane, rational role model is here.

[antceleb12]

I will add that Sinead O'Conner has been the aggressor here. After her initial letter, Cyrus tweeted that they could "meet up" to discuss this. But, O'Connor decided to make another public message and used the f-word.

You tell me who the sane, rational role model is here.

You're right, and I acknowledged in one of my posts above that Sinead also did not respond well [[her threats for legal actions were certainly just as unnecessary as Miley's F-bombs). And I know Sinead hasn't been the perfect role model, either, but I still think her letter contains some very valuable advice.

But, of course, that's just my opinion, and Miley is able to make her own decisions.

[Roberta75]

1) Teens DO still look up to her.
2) It's not "just" showbiz. I see students coming into school who come in wearing long shorts or skirts, but will change into shorter skirts [[even though their parents don't approve). Where do they get these ideas that it's OK for a 14 year old to be wearing booty shorts? The media, and their friends [[who get those ideas from the media in the first place).

Then the teachers need to call the parents or the parents need to chick they kids backpacks every morning imo.

Roberta

[antceleb12]

Then the teachers need to call the parents or the parents need to chick they kids backpacks every morning imo.

Roberta

They do. Believe me, being in the school system, they do. But violating a dress code [[at least in public schools) doesn't normally constitute any more extreme punishments. And telling a teeanger they can't wear certain clothes isn't going to stop them from wanting to, or even trying to, with a lot of kids. Just because a parent or teacher tells a kid what they're doing is wrong, doesn't mean they're going to listen. With a lot teenagers, their friends and the media are often prioritized higher than what their parents or teachers think. And yes, controlling [[or trying to control) what our kids have access to will help, but somehow kids are going to see what's out there, and, in a lot of cases, try to emulate or be just like that celebrity that happens to be hip and cool.

[MIKEW-UK]

antceleb, I find your views carefully deliberated, astute and balanced. I entirely support your opinions. I do not want you to think you are in a minority of one. I believe you have a very informed view of the challenges children face today, and the influences [[outside of parental influence) which can take them in a certain direction. The fact that you are in the education system, and actively immersed in these challenges on a day to day basis, only makes my conviction in you stronger.

If you were in the education system, yet advocated females take the money irrespective of their self- respect, the example they set others, or looked down on others who were just trying to get by doing unglamorous jobs, I would have been profoundly disappointed. However, that is clearly not the case, and I commend you for your character and for striving to do the best for those entrusted to your care.

[Roberta75]

They do. Believe me, being in the school system, they do. But violating a dress code [[at least in public schools) doesn't normally constitute any more extreme punishments. And telling a teeanger they can't wear certain clothes isn't going to stop them from wanting to, or even trying to, with a lot of kids. Just because a parent or teacher tells a kid what they're doing is wrong, doesn't mean they're going to listen. With a lot teenagers, their friends and the media are often prioritized higher than what their parents or teachers think. And yes, controlling [[or trying to control) what our kids have access to will help, but somehow kids are going to see what's out there, and, in a lot of cases, try to emulate or be just like that celebrity that happens to be hip and cool.

Kids need to be allowed to express themselves but also need to be supervised. My mom went balistic when my eldest sister dressed like Tina Turner in the late 60s with a mini skirt all the way up her butt but my sister turned out fine. My mom whupped me for coming home in the 70s in hotpants and white platform boots which i had obviously seen on the TV and I turned out fine. My neice came home in the early 80s with real spiky hair and chains and a pierced nose and she turn out fine. We all turned out fine because we had a great mom who taught us values and self respect but we had express ourselves and try to be real hot and fashionable. Blaming Miley Cyrus is like blaming race car divers because your teenager smash a car when driving real fast or blaming McDonalds because your kids got fat from eating big macs and supersize fries. The parents have a responsibility to teach they kids good eating habits and safe driving skills and monitor they online activity and not to be promiscous and to use protection when they start having sexual intercourse. Its called parenting and being real involved in your kids life. Blaming Miley Cyrus is just a cop-out imo.

Roberta

[antceleb12]

antceleb, I find your views carefully deliberated, astute and balanced. I entirely support your opinions. I do not want you to think you are in a minority of one. I believe you have a very informed view of the challenges children face today, and the influences [[outside of parental influence) which can take them in a certain direction. The fact that you are in the education system, and actively immersed in these challenges on a day to day basis, only makes my conviction in you stronger.

If you were in the education system, yet advocated females take the money irrespective of their self- respect, the example they set others, or looked down on others who were just trying to get by doing unglamorous jobs, I would have been profoundly disappointed. However, that is clearly not the case, and I commend you for your character and for striving to do the best for those entrusted to your care.

Thank you, Mike. That really means a lot!!


Kids need to be allowed to express themselves but also need to be supervised. My mom went balistic when my eldest sister dressed like Tina Turner in the late 60s with a mini skirt all the way up her butt but my sister turned out fine. My mom whupped me for coming home in the 70s in hotpants and white platform boots which i had obviously seen on the TV and I turned out fine. My neice came home in the early 80s with real spiky hair and chains and a pierced nose and she turn out fine. We all turned out fine because we had a great mom who taught us values and self respect but we had express ourselves and try to be real hot and fashionable. Blaming Miley Cyrus is like blaming race car divers because your teenager smash a car when driving real fast or blaming McDonalds because your kids got fat from eating big macs and supersize fries. The parents have a responsibility to teach they kids good eating habits and safe driving skills and monitor they online activity and not to be promiscous and to use protection when they start having sexual intercourse. Its called parenting and being real involved in your kids life. Blaming Miley Cyrus is just a cop-out imo.

Roberta

Roberta, I understand your view completely. But Miley is not an invalid. She is not crippled by her parents' upbringing. At some point, you can't make excuses for the children. If she wants to act like an adult, she has to assume the responsibilities of an adult.

Secondly, children don't always turn out alright even if the parents instilled every value in them possible. And it's very presumptuous to say that if a grown child [[i.e. twenty years old, as is Miley's case) makes poor choices, it's automatically the parents' fault. My parents raised me and my siblings wonderfully and they have instilled in us respect, good values, and the consequences of our choices. They were certainly strict in punishing us whenever we made poor choices. Still, one of my siblings is dealing with some distressing issues and has not made some wise life decisions. However, I will knock out anyone who tries to blame my parents, because they did everything in their power to raise us with the best sense of what's right and what's wrong. You and your siblings might have turned out all right, but that's not always the case. If children don't turn out to be as pristine as parents try to raise them, well there are outside influences that affect growing children. The same goes with Miley Cyrus. Blaming her is not a cop-out because she is mentally cognizant enough to make her own decisions; to know what's right and what's wrong. In reality, blaming the parents is more of a cop-out because then every time a child does something wrong, they can just say "It's not my fault, my parents didn't tell me it was wrong." We need to draw the line. If you are able to live on your own and make your own decisions - as Miley is clearly capable of doing - she is responsible for her own actions.

[soulster]

Teenagers were twerking, masturbating, and having sex long before Miley Cyrus was born.

[Roberta75]

Thank you, Mike. That really means a lot!!



Roberta, I understand your view completely. But Miley is not an invalid. She is not crippled by her parents' upbringing. At some point, you can't make excuses for the children. If she wants to act like an adult, she has to assume the responsibilities of an adult.

Secondly, children don't always turn out alright even if the parents instilled every value in them possible. And it's very presumptuous to say that if a grown child [[i.e. twenty years old, as is Miley's case) makes poor choices, it's automatically the parents' fault. My parents raised me and my siblings wonderfully and they have instilled in us respect, good values, and the consequences of our choices. They were certainly strict in punishing us whenever we made poor choices. Still, one of my siblings is dealing with some distressing issues and has not made some wise life decisions. However, I will knock out anyone who tries to blame my parents, because they did everything in their power to raise us with the best sense of what's right and what's wrong. You and your siblings might have turned out all right, but that's not always the case. If children don't turn out to be as pristine as parents try to raise them, well there are outside influences that affect growing children. The same goes with Miley Cyrus. Blaming her is not a cop-out because she is mentally cognizant enough to make her own decisions; to know what's right and what's wrong. In reality, blaming the parents is more of a cop-out because then every time a child does something wrong, they can just say "It's not my fault, my parents didn't tell me it was wrong." We need to draw the line. If you are able to live on your own and make your own decisions - as Miley is clearly capable of doing - she is responsible for her own actions.

But whats Miley done? She twerked on TV so what? Ever looked at some of the video games kids play with people getting they heads blown off every 5 seconds. Thats way more dangerous than twerking on TV yet parents allow they kids to line up at video stores to buy these violent games. I didnt know what twerking was until Miley did it. maybe someone will open twerking excersice classes that will improve our health and make us lose weight. I may start twerking lol.

There are no guarantee in life you do the best you can with your kids but trust me twerking aint gonna send them down the path to hell.

Roberta

[antceleb12]

But whats Miley done? She twerked on TV so what? Ever looked at some of the video games kids play with people getting they heads blown off every 5 seconds. Thats way more dangerous than twerking on TV yet parents allow they kids to line up at video stores to buy these violent games. I didnt know what twerking was until Miley did it. maybe someone will open twerking excersice classes that will improve our health and make us lose weight. I may start twerking lol.

There are no guarantee in life you do the best you can with your kids but trust me twerking aint gonna send them down the path to hell.

Roberta

I have problems with those video games, too, but that's a separate issue.

With Miley, it's more than her twerking. It's her outfit [[rather, her lack-thereof), her gyrating against a man's pelvis on national television, and the lyrics in her song. She talks about "dancing with molly" [[a street name for ecstasy), "doing lines in the bathroom," etc. The song glamorizes partying and doing drugs as the cool life, when it's not! And it's sad that songs like that are allowed on the airwaves. Her outfit is not respectful to herself and other women. It says that to be sexy and attractive, you should wear as little as possible. The industry wants you to believe that it's liberating. It's not. It's demeaning and sexist. On the male end, the industry says that you have to be smooth, handsome, "manly," and essentially pimp yourself out to lots of young, thin women in order to be desirable.

I was never a fan of Miley Cyrus, but she used to do what music is actually about - SING. Now, her songs are auto-tuned, and her performances are less based on the music, and more about how she looks and how much controversy she can stir up. Vocally, she has potential. But she's not using it.

[timmyfunk]

Madonna is known [[inside the industry) for being very hands-on in the studio, and has been that way from day one. She is involved during every step of the process from hiring musicians to the mastering stage. But, all you ever hear about is adoptions and stuff. That's the public's and the media's fault.

Every publicity stunt that Madonna has ever initiated [[yes, initiated) is what has kept her name in the press. It hasn't been anything she does in the studio. In fact, she hasn't made any kind of splash musically since at least 1999. She is the one that dangling the carrot in front of the horse, not the media. And that goes for any Britney, Miley, Christina A, and every other glorified mall rat that came after Madge. In fact her publicity stunts are what brings attention to her recordings.

[jillfoster]

Every publicity stunt that Madonna has ever initiated [[yes, initiated) is what has kept her name in the press. It hasn't been anything she does in the studio. In fact, she hasn't made any kind of splash musically since at least 1999. She is the one that dangling the carrot in front of the horse, not the media. And that goes for any Britney, Miley, Christina A, and every other glorified mall rat that came after Madge. In fact her publicity stunts are what brings attention to her recordings.

I'll totally agree with that. You know Mama Cass made it on voice and personality, not twerking or publicity stunts.

[Roberta75]

I'll totally agree with that. You know Mama Cass made it on voice and personality, not twerking or publicity stunts.

lol you just gave me a vision of Mama Cass twerking lolololololololol.

Roberta

[smark21]

Miley must be doing something right if she’s irritating prissy authority figures who want performers to be positive role models. I hope she keeps up the good work. Most teenagers like to party, experiment with alcohol and/or drugs, have hangovers, and dressed to attract whomever they want to attract. Sometimes they have to go behind a parent’s back to do so, but that’s what they do. And for centuries there have been songs about drinking and drugging, getting high, partying, dancing, wearing scanty clothes and having sex. IT’s just people being people.

[antceleb12]

Miley must be doing something right if she’s irritating prissy authority figures who want performers to be positive role models. I hope she keeps up the good work. Most teenagers like to party, experiment with alcohol and/or drugs, have hangovers, and dressed to attract whomever they want to attract. Sometimes they have to go behind a parent’s back to do so, but that’s what they do. And for centuries there have been songs about drinking and drugging, getting high, partying, dancing, wearing scanty clothes and having sex. IT’s just people being people.

What do you mean by she's doing something right by offending people? Is she doing good by being upsetting people? And are you saying that people who disapprove are "prissy?" That's quite arrogant to assume. Are people who are offended by nude twerking and songs about doing drugs terrible people? I'm sorry if being upset by ILLEGAL drugs and wearing underwear on stage is offensive to you. Just because it's been going on for years, doesn't mean it should be going on. Corruption in politics has been going on for thousands of years, and that's just people being people. Of course people are going to party and do drugs and whatever. But when you have 10-year-olds singing about "doing lines" and "dancing with molly" and twerking, that's not OK.

[Roberta75]

What do you mean by she's doing something right by offending people? Is she doing good by being upsetting people? And are you saying that people who disapprove are "prissy?" That's quite arrogant to assume. Are people who are offended by nude twerking and songs about doing drugs terrible people? I'm sorry if being upset by ILLEGAL drugs and wearing underwear on stage is offensive to you. Just because it's been going on for years, doesn't mean it should be going on. Corruption in politics has been going on for thousands of years, and that's just people being people. Of course people are going to party and do drugs and whatever. But when you have 10-year-olds singing about "doing lines" and "dancing with molly" and twerking, that's not OK.

If a ten year old know what doing lines means and dancing with Molly then the parents need to rethink they parenting skills. Im telling you twerking is gonna be the new rage for all ages and I may buy me some twerking lessons when they start offering them. It look like real good excersise lol.

Lets stop bashing Miley. "Let he that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone"

Roberta

[soulster]

Teens don't need Miley's song to know about doing drugs and having s-e-x. You can see fewer clothes on females on the beach and at the swimming pool.

[soulster]

Miley must be doing something right if she’s irritating prissy authority figures who want performers to be positive role models. I hope she keeps up the good work. Most teenagers like to party, experiment with alcohol and/or drugs, have hangovers, and dressed to attract whomever they want to attract. Sometimes they have to go behind a parent’s back to do so, but that’s what they do. And for centuries there have been songs about drinking and drugging, getting high, partying, dancing, wearing scanty clothes and having sex. IT’s just people being people. There are people in Europe who are laughing at us over our obsession with this.

[skooldem1]

Sheesh. Miley is not the anti-Christ. The only thing she did that was foul was wearing an outfit that made her butt look like pancakes. Like someone mentioned, she doesn't have the equipment to twerk.

[soulster]

Sheesh. Miley is not the anti-Christ. The only thing she did that was foul was wearing an outfit that made her butt look like pancakes. Like someone mentioned, she doesn't have the equipment to twerk.
Someone needs to take her out to eat and put some junk in that trunk!

Let's see what some other female singers have to say about this:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/rockandpopmusic/10361158/Sex-in-pop-music-what-do-other-female-pop-stars-think.html

[jillfoster]

Sheesh. Miley is not the anti-Christ. The only thing she did that was foul was wearing an outfit that made her butt look like pancakes. Like someone mentioned, she doesn't have the equipment to twerk.

Now THAT was funny! LIOL

[splanky]

Twerking is basically mostly butt shaking and women have been shaking their asses to whatever music they enjoy since Queen Sheba dropped it like it was hot on the Pharoah.
They just a twerk a thon in New York a couple of weeks ago to try to make it mainstream
and get in the Guiness Book and though I have some mixed feelings about some aspects
of all that I know it's not gonna disappear anytime soon. Remember when people said hip hop was a fad that wouldn't last? In the Congo the dance is called Mapouka [[check youtube)
and in Brazil they call it doing Funk. Some even claim it's not sexual at all but I personally
think those folks are kidding themselves. Anyway Miley recently stated she was going to give it up because now that white people are doing it , it's become lame. I disagree with
that statement because I've seen white women on the web who DO have the equipment,
doing it WELL:)....

[soulster]

Anyway Miley recently stated she was going to give it up because now that white people are doing it , it's become lame. I disagree with
that statement because I've seen white women on the web who DO have the equipment,
doing it WELL:).... I think that was supposed to be a joke.

[splanky]

I think that was supposed to be a joke.

Maybe so but compared to the chick who calls herself virgoperidot Miley's twerking is
a frigging joke:)! With no punchline I might add.....Mercy!...

[antceleb12]

I'm not bashing Miley, or saying she's the anti-Christ. Like I previously stated, she's got a lot of talent. I'm critical of her recent career choice and reasons to do so.

Roberta, I don't want to say it again. Just because a 10 year old knows about drugs, doesn't mean their parents are doing a bad job raising them. That's an inaccurate generalization. Kids these days are so susceptible to the influences of the world around them that it's impossible to totally shelter them from the world, unless you belong to some cult out in the middle of nowhere.

[Roberta75]

I'm not bashing Miley, or saying she's the anti-Christ. Like I previously stated, she's got a lot of talent. I'm critical of her recent career choice and reasons to do so.

Roberta, I don't want to say it again. Just because a 10 year old knows about drugs, doesn't mean their parents are doing a bad job raising them. That's an inaccurate generalization. Kids these days are so susceptible to the influences of the world around them that it's impossible to totally shelter them from the world, unless you belong to some cult out in the middle of nowhere.

Theres a difference between a 10 year old knowing about drugs and understanding the phrase or lyric "doing lines" antceleb12. Every Kids should be taught about the downfalls of doing drugs and that should be taught in the home and the school but i doubt the phrase "doing lines" registers with 10 year old. Kids have always been suseptable to the world arounfd them from Zoot suits to gangster movies to guns to jitterbuging and showing your panties in the 1940s to wearing hotpants in the 1970's and sequined boob tubes in the 1980s which i wore lol. You cant shelter your kids but you can sure teach them right from wrong and instill real fine values and respect in them. Your kids my dabble in stuff they shouldnt and do drugs and have sex with numerouss partners before they hopefully settle down. Its called life my dear and Miley Cyrus twerking isnt going to send kids down the wrong path imo.

Roberta

[soulster]

Theres a difference between a 10 year old knowing about drugs and understanding the phrase or lyric "doing lines" antceleb12. Every Kids should be taught about the downfalls of doing drugs and that should be taught in the home and the school but i doubt the phrase "doing lines" registers with 10 year old. Kids have always been suseptable to the world arounfd them from Zoot suits to gangster movies to guns to jitterbuging and showing your panties in the 1940s to wearing hotpants in the 1970's and sequined boob tubes in the 1980s which i wore lol. You cant shelter your kids but you can sure teach them right from wrong and instill real fine values and respect in them. Your kids my dabble in stuff they shouldnt and do drugs and have sex with numerouss partners before they hopefully settle down. Its called life my dear and Miley Cyrus twerking isnt going to send kids down the wrong path imo.

Roberta
Roberta, I like you more all the time.

[Jerry Oz]

I agree with your post 100%, Roberta. However, Miley Cyrus is very capable of influencing teen culture and I'll bet my next paycheck that there will be young women experiencing peer pressure to behave in that manner when they go to parties or other social gatherings. Of course "if you raise them right", they'll have the capacity to walk away, but you and I both know that at that age kids' choices are based upon social acceptance, not common sense. Ask all of the kids caught up in the Steubenville rape case about that. Not one of those kids would behave in that manner except they were all hanging with each other one Friday night, so what the hell?

I will not blame Cyrus for her influence on teens, but I recognize that the teenage brain is wired in a manner that peer pressure is as influential as parental teaching. With that said, the nastiest thing walking is a teenage boy and there are always going to be enough girls willing to give them what they want. Even the "good girls" will be behaving in that manner for fear of falling out of favor.

Nope, she's not the anti-Christ, but the opinion of some that don't like her behavior is no less legitimate than the opinion of those who rallied around her.

[Roberta75]

Roberta, I like you more all the time.

Flattery will get you everywhere my dear lolololol.

Best to you.

Roberta

[antceleb12]

Theres a difference between a 10 year old knowing about drugs and understanding the phrase or lyric "doing lines" antceleb12. Every Kids should be taught about the downfalls of doing drugs and that should be taught in the home and the school but i doubt the phrase "doing lines" registers with 10 year old. Kids have always been suseptable to the world arounfd them from Zoot suits to gangster movies to guns to jitterbuging and showing your panties in the 1940s to wearing hotpants in the 1970's and sequined boob tubes in the 1980s which i wore lol. You cant shelter your kids but you can sure teach them right from wrong and instill real fine values and respect in them. Your kids my dabble in stuff they shouldnt and do drugs and have sex with numerouss partners before they hopefully settle down. Its called life my dear and Miley Cyrus twerking isnt going to send kids down the wrong path imo.

Roberta

I understand your point, and I agree to an extent. Yes, kids should DEFINITELY be taught about drugs and sex - by both parents and the school - so they can avoid dangerous situations. But there are kids out there who DO know what "doing lines" means to a T. I have come across such kids. Before you assume it's the parents' sole fault for this exposure, consider this kid's environment. Consider what other influences are out there. I knew a kid once who witnessed drug exchanges and found drugs on the street and knew all the lingo from the kids in school. Not his parents' fault. Yes, parents are the main socialization factor in a child's life, but to say that they are his or her ONLY influence is inaccurate.

And once again I will say that it is not necessarily the twerking that upsets me. It's what she was wearing, what she was doing with Robin Thicke, the lyrics in her song, the Wrecking Ball video.

And I understand that teenagers need to express themselves and find themselves, but drugs and anonymous sex is not a safe route. Some people start doing it because they want to see what it's like but they end up staying on that road for a long time, or don't come back at all. Some people try E [[Molly) for the first time and end up dying. Too many kids drink and drive WITH the knowledge that it's not OK to do so. Pot, in heavy doses, destroys brain cells. Sex with strangers or lots of people can lead to STD's [[even with a condom). Personally, I don't see the positive side in all of this. I don't see how doing E, in any amount, or engaging in sex with a lot of partners, can be done responsibly in any way.

You are entitled to your own opinion. And I see where you and soulster are coming from. But try to look at it from another perspective. My concerns are not "prissy," nor do they make me stuck-up, irrelevant, whatever. I am concerned about how the values of our youth, who are very impressionable, are being shaped or changed by the media's glorification of drugs and sex.

Try to understand it from that perspective. You don't have to agree with me, but at least be open enough to understand WHY so many people are concerned.

[soulster]

Not everyone lives in a world with children.

[Roberta75]

I understand your point, and I agree to an extent. Yes, kids should DEFINITELY be taught about drugs and sex - by both parents and the school - so they can avoid dangerous situations. But there are kids out there who DO know what "doing lines" means to a T. I have come across such kids. Before you assume it's the parents' sole fault for this exposure, consider this kid's environment. Consider what other influences are out there. I knew a kid once who witnessed drug exchanges and found drugs on the street and knew all the lingo from the kids in school. Not his parents' fault. Yes, parents are the main socialization factor in a child's life, but to say that they are his or her ONLY influence is inaccurate.

And once again I will say that it is not necessarily the twerking that upsets me. It's what she was wearing, what she was doing with Robin Thicke, the lyrics in her song, the Wrecking Ball video.

And I understand that teenagers need to express themselves and find themselves, but drugs and anonymous sex is not a safe route. Some people start doing it because they want to see what it's like but they end up staying on that road for a long time, or don't come back at all. Some people try E [[Molly) for the first time and end up dying. Too many kids drink and drive WITH the knowledge that it's not OK to do so. Pot, in heavy doses, destroys brain cells. Sex with strangers or lots of people can lead to STD's [[even with a condom). Personally, I don't see the positive side in all of this. I don't see how doing E, in any amount, or engaging in sex with a lot of partners, can be done responsibly in any way.

You are entitled to your own opinion. And I see where you and soulster are coming from. But try to look at it from another perspective. My concerns are not "prissy," nor do they make me stuck-up, irrelevant, whatever. I am concerned about how the values of our youth, who are very impressionable, are being shaped or changed by the media's glorification of drugs and sex.

Try to understand it from that perspective. You don't have to agree with me, but at least be open enough to understand WHY so many people are concerned.

But Elvis Presley and Mick Jagger and Tina Turner outfits and shaking which was really twerking shock parents all over the country and Ozzy Ozbourne biting the head of a bat sent shockwaves all over the country but how many kids bite the head of a bat? I recall family members being real horriffied and saying the world was going to hell in a handbasket when the Sex Pistols and and Alice Cooper hit the airwaves and then Britney spears shaved her head and I doubt many kids follow her and shave they heads. The point is sex and drugs and rock and roll have been around forever and every generations parents say the media have glorified it. Mileys twerking and skimpy outfit may have shocked folks but im sure responsible parents told they kids theyd get they butt whupped if they got caught wearing something like that. As for the twerking well it aint all that and suggesttive dancings been around for darn near 100 years.

Most kids who have been raised right turn out right and a few dont and all we can do is pray for them that take the wrong road that they eventually end up back on Gods glorious highway.

Roberta

[antceleb12]

Not everyone lives in a world with children.

I don't understand what you mean.


But Elvis Presley and Mick Jagger and Tina Turner outfits and shaking which was really twerking shock parents all over the country and Ozzy Ozbourne biting the head of a bat sent shockwaves all over the country but how many kids bite the head of a bat?

1 - Ozzy is a loon. He's got so many issues. Of course I don't think he's a role model.
2 - Elvis and Tina Turner never advocated drug use in their music, nor did they wear underwear, and only underwear, on stage.

I've heard this all a million times. You and soulster are not the first ones to give me these arguments. I stand firmly with what I have said. It is clear none of us are going to change our stances.

[Roberta75]

I don't understand what you mean.



1 - Ozzy is a loon. He's got so many issues. Of course I don't think he's a role model.
2 - Elvis and Tina Turner never advocated drug use in their music, nor did they wear underwear, and only underwear, on stage.

I've heard this all a million times. You and soulster are not the first ones to give me these arguments. I stand firmly with what I have said. It is clear none of us are going to change our stances.

Elvis shaking his pelvis was just as shocking back then as Mileys underwear twerking is to some folks. My mom wouldnt let my sister watch Tina Turner on TV cause she thought her outfits were terrible. My aunt Idella thought Barbara Streisand apperaing at the Oscars in a see through sheer pantsuit was a disgrace. Its happened in every decade and throughout every gennerations.

I think we need to respectfully differ my dear.

Yours, with every good wish.

Roberta

[antceleb12]

Elvis shaking his pelvis was just as shocking back then as Mileys underwear twerking is to some folks. My mom wouldnt let my sister watch Tina Turner on TV cause she thought her outfits were terrible. My aunt Idella thought Barbara Streisand apperaing at the Oscars in a see through sheer pantsuit was a disgrace. Its happened in every decade and throughout every gennerations.

I think we need to respectfully differ my dear.

Yours, with every good wish.

Roberta

Roberta,

One last point, to summarize. Again, it's not the twerking that bothers me so much. It's all those other things I mentioned. Yeah, I don't consider Babs in a see-through outfit is appropriate, even if it is Babs. I realize Miley is not the first case of controversy to come along. That doesn't mean, to me, it's any less concerning.

That's all.

[smark21]

Antceleb, I’m wondering what you would advocate as a solution to the music of the Mileys of the world. You seem to think that artists should set a positive example for children. Do you think that because there is always a risk a child might hear or see something objectionable that artists should cater their acts to be child friendly at all times? That would make for a very boring and soporific pop culture landscape and frankly children, once they get old enough, will rebel against it. Kind of like what Miley is doing now as she’s trying to shed her wholesome Hannah Montana image, to much success I might add.

BTW, Tina Turner has had drug references in her music. She played The Acid Queen in the film version of The Who’s Rock Opera Tommy.

[skooldem1]

Not only that, but Tina sang a song with her breast exposed, and fondled her microphone like it was Ike's c*ck and she was getting ready to perform oral sex.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waH6Cu9i-nY

[Jerry Oz]

Not only that, but Tina sang a song with her breast exposed, and fondled her microphone like it was Ike's c*ck and she was getting ready to perform oral sex.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waH6Cu9i-nY
Was that on live TV?

[soulster]

Roberta,

One last point, to summarize. Again, it's not the twerking that bothers me so much. It's all those other things I mentioned. Yeah, I don't consider Babs in a see-through outfit is appropriate, even if it is Babs. I realize Miley is not the first case of controversy to come along. That doesn't mean, to me, it's any less concerning.

That's all.
But, Miley's an adult and entertains for adults. She's should be able to do what ever she wants.

Right now, any kid can get on the computer and pull up the most vile porn or violence with two clicks.

Children masturbate before they learn to speak.

They can go to a party where they will have various stages of sexual activity.

They can see their dad beating up on mom. They can see their siblings or friends doing hard drugs or copious amounts of alcohol.

They can go to a shooting range or go hunting and and fire all manner of weapons.

They can go to the beach or to the pool, or even the local mall, and see women in thongs and tops that leave little to the imagination.

And, finally, humans have sex.

When you consider all of that, Miley twerking Robin Thicke's junk doesn't seem so bad after all, does it?

[Jerry Oz]

Soulster, what do you make of someone who flashes himself in front of strangers? Chances are, that person being confronted has seen a dick before, so why is there a law against it? What if he flashed you? I'm taking your argument to the extreme on purpose because I can see a violator evoking it to defend himself in a court of law. Regardless of whether my daughter knows what a penis looks like, if you flash her, I'm going to introduce you to the business end of a baseball bat, but I guess that would make me seem like a prude...

[soulster]

Soulster, what do you make of someone who flashes himself in front of strangers? Chances are, that person being confronted has seen a dick before, so why is there a law against it? What if he flashed you? I'm taking your argument to the extreme on purpose because I can see a violator evoking it to defend himself in a court of law. Regardless of whether my daughter knows what a penis looks like, if you flash her, I'm going to introduce you to the business end of a baseball bat, but I guess that would make me seem like a prude...

One problem here: Miley Cyrus and Robin Thicke were clothed. No one saw any penises or booty. No one engaged in any sexual activity. There were children in that audience, but they were the children of the artists in that audience, who no doubt, have seen stuff like that before, having grown up in and around the entertainment business. Also, the parents know that anything can happen at these shows.

There are laws against flashing in this country because religious prudes created our laws, and we do have to protect women and children from the possibility of being sexually violated, which is somewhat assumed will happen if they are flashed.

I would never flash anyone, but if you did decide to use that bat on someone, you'd be in jail on assault and battery, and possibly attempted murder charges. Then you would be on the business end of cell mate's baseball bat, if you know what I mean.

[soulster]

Sinead O'Connor needs some serious professional therapy. She has escalated this once again. She apparently doesn't know when to stop.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/09/sinead-oconnor-miley-cyrus-open-letter-suicide_n_4069397.html [[http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/09/sinead-oconnor-miley-cyrus-open-letter-suicide_n_4069397.html)

Before you all go blaming Ms. Cyrus for this, remember who started it. No one asked for O'Connor's advice, and O'Connor should have kept quiet. Of course, she couldn't because she needs mental help.

[Jerry Oz]

You didn't answer my question pertaining to whether someone flashed you. And if I used that baseball bat, the charge against me would be murder. Furthermore, you make the assumption that I'm either attractive enough to warrant a cell mate's baseball bat, or unable to either defend myself [[or play ball myself if I was so inclined), if you know what I mean.

The laws against flashing have less to do with religious prudes than they do with the fact that your right of self-expression does not supercede my right to be left alone and not have someone determine what I should be exposed to [[pardon the pun). Regardless, there are limits to any behavior. Whereas I find this whole controversy ridiculous, she calculated this response before engaging in it. She's neither to be praised or vilified so far as I'm concerned, and she deserves any positive or negative consequences as a result of it.

[soulster]

You didn't answer my question pertaining to whether someone flashed you.

I think I did. I would simply report it if I felt threatened. But, me being a guy, I would probably laugh it off if it were a dude, and I might smile if it were a woman. Violence would get me in trouble.


And if I used that baseball bat, the charge against me would be murder. Furthermore, you make the assumption that I'm either attractive enough to warrant a cell mate's baseball bat, or unable to either defend myself [[or play ball myself if I was so inclined), if you know what I mean.

I would think it wouldn't matter how you looked to a hostile cell mate. Remember, rape isn't about sex, it's about violence, dominance/control. And, all the better if you can take care of the situation yourself.


The laws against flashing have less to do with religious prudes than they do with the fact that your right of self-expression does not supercede my right to be left alone and not have someone determine what I should be exposed to [[pardon the pun).

I'm talking about why the laws were created in the first place. It's because some people don't dig seeing the naked human body, or are offended by seeing genitals. And, again, it is usually assumed that any man who exposes himself to a female or child means to do more.


Regardless, there are limits to any behavior.

Depending on the setting and the permissions of the people involved...


Whereas I find this whole controversy ridiculous, she calculated this response before engaging in it. She's neither to be praised or vilified so far as I'm concerned, and she deserves any positive or negative consequences as a result of it.

I don't know if anyone deserves anything, but this is basically one thing we can agree on: the whole thing is ridiculous, and probably would have faded into history along Mariah Carey's and Britney Spears' pussy flashing, and Janet Jackson's "nipplegate", if Sinead O'Conner hadn't inserted herself into it.

[antceleb12]

But, Miley's an adult and entertains for adults. She's should be able to do what ever she wants.

Right now, any kid can get on the computer and pull up the most vile porn or violence with two clicks.

Children masturbate before they learn to speak.

They can go to a party where they will have various stages of sexual activity.

They can see their dad beating up on mom. They can see their siblings or friends doing hard drugs or copious amounts of alcohol.

They can go to a shooting range or go hunting and and fire all manner of weapons.

They can go to the beach or to the pool, or even the local mall, and see women in thongs and tops that leave little to the imagination.

And, finally, humans have sex.

When you consider all of that, Miley twerking Robin Thicke's junk doesn't seem so bad after all, does it?

For the umpteenth time, it's not the twerking that's most problematic to me. I've stated my concerns quite clearly multiple times in previous replies.

Of course I'm aware about porn, abuse, thong-clothed women, parties, etc. etc. But that's not what this post is about and I don't need to air every concern I have. And yeah, I'm not trying to equate Miley with abuse.

And yes, people have sex. And people are gonna have sex out of marriage, I know. There are also ways to teach people how to do it responsibly. And while health classes and parents are going to teach that, teens will see what's on TV and think, "I want that" [[which is why the media is such a powerful outlet). Don't confuse my conservative opinions for naivety. I am very aware of what kind of things young people do. I'm fresh out of college, so I have seen a lot of what's out there now. Which is why I don't agree with a lot of it.

From a feminist perspective, Miley at the VMA's is particularly frustrating. I don't want to repeat myself, as I've made those concerns clear above. But if anything, it doesn't help at all the sexualization and misogynistic attitudes that run rampant in the music business.

[soulster]

Don't confuse my conservative opinions...
Bingo! I knew it! I was just wondering how long it would be before you admitted it. Obviously, I have a bias against conservatives.

Sinead O'Conner probably misconstrued Miley Cyrus's position in the industry. Miley has repeatedly made it clear that no one told or advised her to do what she did on stage. That was of her own doing, just as much as Janet Jackson deciding to create her "wardrobe malfunction". There was no misogyny going on in either of these cases. The females were empowered. I wish people would quit making women victims against the evil males.

[antceleb12]

Antceleb, I’m wondering what you would advocate as a solution to the music of the Mileys of the world. You seem to think that artists should set a positive example for children. Do you think that because there is always a risk a child might hear or see something objectionable that artists should cater their acts to be child friendly at all times? That would make for a very boring and soporific pop culture landscape and frankly children, once they get old enough, will rebel against it. Kind of like what Miley is doing now as she’s trying to shed her wholesome Hannah Montana image, to much success I might add.

BTW, Tina Turner has had drug references in her music. She played The Acid Queen in the film version of The Who’s Rock Opera Tommy.

I'm not saying that at all. If I thought every artist should be a Mary Poppins-knock-off, I certainly wouldn't be a big fan of soul music [[you should see the loons who preach that Motown's women were whores, or that soul music the devil's music). That's not what I'm saying. I don't know if the above Tina Turner clip was performed on television or not, but my concern is that Miley's performance is not suitable for national television. I mean, that stuff goes around the internet faster than Elizabeth Taylor did with her husbands! At a private concert is somewhat of a different story. You won't see many [[if any) young children, but rather adults, or young adults, who have a grasp on right and wrong. Grant it, in this day and age, more and more concerts are being leaked onto the internet - but not at the same rate as a nationally broadcast program.

I did forget about the Acid Queen. While I love Tina's music, this was [[for me) really bizarre. Actually, I played Tommy when I was in high school, but I didn't really know so much about who the Acid Queen was. But that's a different story...Again, though, that was at a different time and in a different situation where if parents didn't want kids to see "Tommy," that was much more easily preventable. Today, though, with technological advancements, anything can be uploaded anywhere, and kids can literally access almost anything that they want.

I'm not saying we should all live in a sunshine-and-lollipops kind of a world [[or, rather, a house full of Doris Day records), and I'm not saying that celebrities should act like perfect saints all of the time, but I do believe that acting wild and crazy all of the time sends out the wrong message. I mean, if a teacher or a doctor or a firefighter were to behave recklessly like some celebrities do, they'd be fired, and, in some situations, possibly blackballed. But celebrities can get away with so much more, and it just seems that so many kids these days don't get why it's not responsible to act that way when they grow up.

[antceleb12]

Bingo! I knew it! I was just wondering how long it would be before you admitted it. Obviously, I have a bias against conservatives.

Wrong again. I am not a registered Conservative. And that presumption is aggravating beyond belief. Not that it's any of your business, but I am a registered Independent. I don't like drawing party lines. When I say "conservative opinions," I'm not talking anything political. My social views and my political views don't coincide.

[soulster]

Wrong again. I am not a registered Conservative. And that presumption is aggravating beyond belief. Not that it's any of your business, but I am a registered Independent. I don't like drawing party lines. When I say "conservative opinions," I'm not talking anything political. My social views and my political views don't coincide.
You, yourself, said you have conservative views. I knew you meant social views, and my feelings about them stand: I have a bias against social conservatives for many reasons.

[antceleb12]

You, yourself, said you have conservative views. I knew you meant social views, and my feelings about them stand: I have a bias against social conservatives for many reasons.

So what you are saying is that everything "conservative" is inherently bad? You don't know me, and you're only aware of a fraction of my belief system, so don't judge me. I might have SOME conservative values, but that does not make me prejudiced, or a bigot, or whatever negative stereotypes you associate with conservatism. That's the issue. People hear "oh, she's a conservative" or "oh, he's a liberal" and they instantly make up their mind as to what kind of person he or she is. I don't know you, so I have no right to form an opinion of you. It'd be nice if you could keep an open mind, too.

[soulster]

So what you are saying is that everything "conservative" is inherently bad?

I believe so. Social conservatism stifles freedom of thought. It removes free will, and always conforms to someone else's social doctrine.


You don't know me, and you're only aware of a fraction of my belief system, so don't judge me.

All I know about you is what you tell me. You are an educator of children of an unknown age, and you hold social conservative views on which I may not agree.


I might have SOME conservative values, but that does not make me prejudiced, or a bigot, or whatever negative stereotypes you associate with conservatism.

I never said you were, but you did plenty of judging of Miley Cyrus's behavior and attire. So, can I include being judgmental in those negative stereotypes?


That's the issue. People hear "oh, she's a conservative" or "oh, he's a liberal" and they instantly make up their mind as to what kind of person he or she is.

I have an issue with people who use children as their last line of argument. Somehow, it's always about children. And, why do I have a problem when people start talking about "morals"? It is because morals are highly subjective. Who's morals should prevail? Mine? Yours? I do respect your morals. Your criticisms are valid, but I don't have to agree with them.


I don't know you, so I have no right to form an opinion of you. It'd be nice if you could keep an open mind, too.

OK. But, I have had a LOT of very negative interaction with people who consider themselves conservatives, both socially and politically. It does color my opinion of them, and your response to the whole Miley thing rubs me the wrong way, just as i'm sure my opinions bother you.

[antceleb12]

I believe so. Social conservatism stifles freedom of thought. It removes free will, and always conforms to someone else's social doctrine.

Everyone has their own limits. Liberals have their own limits. Conservatives have their own limits. To say that conservatism is unique in holding beliefs in limits as to what is acceptable and what isn't is not accurate. In sociology, these "social norms" apply to everyone. We all do it. I am not alone, and their are plenty of "liberals" who will agree with me.


All I know about you is what you tell me. You are an educator of children of an unknown age, and you hold social conservative views on which I may not agree.

True.


I never said you were, but you did plenty of judging of Miley Cyrus's behavior and attire. So, can I include being judgmental in those negative stereotypes?

You're absolutely right. I did judge her ACTIONS. I did not judge Miley as a person. Never called her a slut, whore, or anything else everyone else is calling her. I do believe her actions were wrong, but I don't think she is the spawn of satan. And don't you say that being judgmental is a stereotype of conservatives. Everyone one on earth is judgmental. We ALL judge everyone and everything. Being judgmental is how we select our friends, how we form opinions, how we form relationships...you judge just as much as I do. It's part of living. My judgments against Miley's actions are not sanctimonious or of the holier-than-thou attitude. They are legitimate concerns.


I have an issue with people who use children as their last line of argument. Somehow, it's always about children. And, why do I have a problem when people start talking about "morals"? It is because morals are highly subjective. Who's morals should prevail? Mine? Yours? I do respect your morals. Your criticisms are valid, but I don't have to agree with them.

I agree, morals are subjective. They are hard to define. But that's not what you said. You immediately jumped the gun and assumed I was probably trying to convert you, or use religion as my only argument [[in fact I didn't use it at all).

What I cannot agree with is your statement about children. I find it absolutely ridiculous to think that when people argue FOR children, it's some sort of lazy attempt to sway the argument in their favor. I am passionate about children and they are my number one concern when it comes to issues we are facing in America today. So much of what gets passed in legislature affects the future in the long run, which affects our children, and it's incredibly selfish to just think that our children are just going to be "fine." Of course it's about the children! As Whitney Houston correctly sang, our children are our future. We can't, or we shouldn't, make decisions without considering how they will affect future generations. While I respect your right to think whatever you want about the Miley situation, and unless I'm misunderstanding you, I find your last statement about children to be rather repugnant.


OK. But, I have had a LOT of very negative interaction with people who consider themselves conservatives, both socially and politically. It does color my opinion of them, and your response to the whole Miley thing rubs me the wrong way, just as i'm sure my opinions bother you.

I understand that it's hard to get around a negative image that's been established by a certain number of people, but if you can't keep an open mind and at least make an attempt to get to know the person before forming an opinion, what good can be accomplished?

This may shock you, but I actually do have a very open mind [[there's some liberalism for you). I have certain values and ideas that I'm dead-set in favor of or against. For the most part, there is something that everyone gets passionate about. This happens to be one of mine.

[soulster]

Everyone has their own limits. Liberals have their own limits. Conservatives have their own limits. To say that conservatism is unique in holding beliefs in limits as to what is acceptable and what isn't is not accurate.

I personally know conservatives who are so extreme in their views that they would make radical Islamists look like hedonists. I don't know any liberals who are so extreme.


In sociology, these "social norms" apply to everyone. We all do it. I am not alone, and their are plenty of "liberals" who will agree with me. So, what are those social "norms"?


You're absolutely right. I did judge her ACTIONS. I did not judge Miley as a person. Never called her a slut, whore, or anything else everyone else is calling her. I do believe her actions were wrong, but I don't think she is the spawn of satan. And don't you say that being judgmental is a stereotype of conservatives. Everyone one on earth is judgmental. We ALL judge everyone and everything. Being judgmental is how we select our friends, how we form opinions, how we form relationships...you judge just as much as I do. It's part of living. My judgments against Miley's actions are not sanctimonious or of the holier-than-thou attitude. They are legitimate concerns. I do not judge individuals. If I meet someone I would rather not be associated with, I don't judge them or their behavior, I just say that they are not for me and move on. Sorry if that's too liberal for you. I have been around so many types of people in the world that I just don't care what people do with their lives, as long as it does not affect me directly. I may not want to be associated with what they do, or their lives, but I do not judge them for it. As for conservatives, I know that I will eventually be disappointed and annoyed with them. So, it's better for both to distance myself from them.


I agree, morals are subjective. They are hard to define. But that's not what you said. You immediately jumped the gun and assumed I was probably trying to convert you, or use religion as my only argument [[in fact I didn't use it at all).

I never said or thought you were trying to covert me. My firm belief, based on a lifetime of experiences, is that usually people who mention morals do so based on some sort of religious dogma.


What I cannot agree with is your statement about children. I find it absolutely ridiculous to think that when people argue FOR children, it's some sort of lazy attempt to sway the argument in their favor.

I did not say that. And, I could have said what I did in a harsh way, but decided it would be too provocative. What I did mean is that, in my experience, people use the defense of children when they have nothing else left to use in an argument, as hardly no one would ever go against the interest of a child.


I am passionate about children and they are my number one concern when it comes to issues we are facing in America today.

I love children too, and care about the world they live in, to a point, but not when that excludes the interest of adults. I know some extremists, almost always religious, who want everything in the world to accommodate small children. How does that accommodate the interests of adults, even of those without children around? What a horrible world it would be! I envision a world with everything censored, everything dumbed-down, no intellectual stimulation, and no sexual outlet. Disney and Smurfs everywhere!


So much of what gets passed in legislature affects the future in the long run, which affects our children, and it's incredibly selfish to just think that our children are just going to be "fine." Of course it's about the children! As Whitney Houston correctly sang, our children are our future. We can't, or we shouldn't, make decisions without considering how they will affect future generations. I totally disagree. What about the rights and freedoms of adults? You can't wrap every little thing around children, unless there's an unhealthy obsession with them. Let's do this: divide the country! One half with children, one without. If you have a kid, you have to move to kiddie-land. When they turn 18, you all move back to adult land. Sound silly? It may be the only option if you want to make everything child-safe.


While I respect your right to think whatever you want about the Miley situation, and unless I'm misunderstanding you, I find your last statement about children to be rather repugnant.

What statement would that be?:confused:


I understand that it's hard to get around a negative image that's been established by a certain number of people, but if you can't keep an open mind and at least make an attempt to get to know the person before forming an opinion, what good can be accomplished?

Most people make no attempt to know me, so why bother?


This may shock you, but I actually do have a very open mind [[there's some liberalism for you). I have certain values and ideas that I'm dead-set in favor of or against. For the most part, there is something that everyone gets passionate about. This happens to be one of mine.

I have an open mind and listen until I hear BS. I'm not saying YOU do, but in general. Thing is, conservatives are usually so predictable in their rhetoric.

I'm passionate about music, audio quality of music, and fairness.

[antceleb12]

I personally know conservatives who are so extreme in their views that they would make radical Islamists look like hedonists. I don't know any liberals who are so extreme.

I do. I know plenty of liberals that are. And I know plenty of conservatives that aren't.


So, what are those social "norms"?

Social norms are what regulate our society. There are three kinds. Folkways - which are unspoken rules of conduct [[i.e. keeping personal space between strangers, holding the door open for people, not hitting women, etc.). Mores - more formal laws which usually comes with a formal sanction [[i.e. speeding/speeding tickets, robbery/jail time, etc.). Finally, there are taboos - rules that come with both a formal and a moral consequence [[i.e. rape, murder, incest, etc.). There are limits to each specific norm, and breaking these norms involves some sort of reaction from observers.


I do not judge individuals. If I meet someone I would rather not be associated with, I don't judge them or their behavior, I just say that they are not for me and move on. Sorry if that's too liberal for you. I have been around so many types of people in the world that I just don't care what people do with their lives, as long as it does not affect me directly. I may not want to be associated with what they do, or their lives, but I do not judge them for it. As for conservatives, I know that I will eventually be disappointed and annoyed with them. So, it's better for both to distance myself from them.

That's good you don't judge individuals. Neither do I.
No, that's not "too liberal" for me. Like I said, I am not a Conservative. Don't pigeon-hole me based on what little you know of me.
If you go into it thinking you're going to be disappointed, then you'll be disappointed. If you go in with an open mind, you never know...


I never said or thought you were trying to covert me. My firm belief, based on a lifetime of experiences, is that usually people who mention morals do so based on some sort of religious dogma.

Not everyone does.


I did not say that. And, I could have said what I did in a harsh way, but decided it would be too provocative. What I did mean is that, in my experience, people use the defense of children when they have nothing else left to use in an argument, as hardly no one would ever go against the interest of a child.

I've never encountered that, which is why I viewed your statement about children as offensive.


I love children too, and care about the world they live in, to a point, but not when that excludes the interest of adults. I know some extremists, almost always religious, who want everything in the world to accommodate small children. How does that accommodate the interests of adults, even of those without children around? What a horrible world it would be! I envision a world with everything censored, everything dumbed-down, no intellectual stimulation, and no sexual outlet. Disney and Smurfs everywhere!

I totally disagree. What about the rights and freedoms of adults? You can't wrap every little thing around children, unless there's an unhealthy obsession with them. Let's do this: divide the country! One half with children, one without. If you have a kid, you have to move to kiddie-land. When they turn 18, you all move back to adult land. Sound silly? It may be the only option if you want to make everything child-safe.

I never said our decisions should exclude adults. I said we shouldn't make important, long-term decisions without thinking about how it impacts future generations. Of course we should consider how it impacts us now, but we are not the only ones we should consider. That is my point.


What statement would that be?:confused:

See above.


Most people make no attempt to know me, so why bother?

Because not all people are like that, and I believe that people deserve the benefit of the doubt.


I have an open mind and listen until I hear BS. I'm not saying YOU do, but in general. Thing is, conservatives are usually so predictable in their rhetoric.

And Conservatives could say the same thing about Liberals - speaking as an impartial party...

[smark21]

Here's Miley and The Roots performing We Can't Stop the other night on Jimmy Fallon:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mjvfnUAfyo

[antceleb12]

Here's Miley and The Roots performing We Can't Stop the other night on Jimmy Fallon:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mjvfnUAfyo

Is there something you're trying to show me?

[jillfoster]

I understand the sentiment that Miley ain't the first to show somethin on TV... I suppose the WAY she does it just seems gratuitous, when Grace Jones shows her boobs on TV, it's art.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1IYUvrn8gk

[smark21]

Is there something you're trying to show me?
Just trying to get the thread back on topic. It's not all about you dearie.

[smark21]

Suzanne Somers is now trying to get some publicity using Miley: http://www.usmagazine.com/celebrity-news/news/suzanne-somers-66-reveals-she-has-sex-twice-a-day-with-husband-alan-hamel-77-2013910 [[http://www.usmagazine.com/celebrity-news/news/suzanne-somers-66-reveals-she-has-sex-twice-a-day-with-husband-alan-hamel-77-2013910)

[antceleb12]

Just trying to get the thread back on topic. It's not all about you dearie.

Chill. I never said it was, "dearie." I was just wondering if you were trying to point something out...

[soulster]

http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/12/showbiz/celebrity-news-gossip/the-life-of-miley-cyrus/index.html?hpt=en_c1

I just got through watching a documentary on Miley Cyrus on CNN a while ago. Again, it reinforces that she is calling all the shots, and has been for a few years now. She is trying hard to get away from Hannah Montana, and really is a wild child. but, her head is on straight.

[Roberta75]

http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/12/showbiz/celebrity-news-gossip/the-life-of-miley-cyrus/index.html?hpt=en_c1

I just got through watching a documentary on Miley Cyrus on CNN a while ago. Again, it reinforces that she is calling all the shots, and has been for a few years now. She is trying hard to get away from Hannah Montana, and really is a wild child. but, her head is on straight.

I think we need to remember Miley never had a real childhood so now she free of Disney and Hannah Montana shes expressing herself and having the fun she never had as a child.

Roberta

[smark21]

I think Miley has found a middle ground between Katy Perry and Lady Gaga. Perry relies on a lot of cartoonish imagery in her videos and stage presentation and likes to show off her body, especially her breasts, but ultimately she’s very wholesome. Miley is not as stacked as Perry, but also has a cartoonish quality in her presentation [[especially having her dancers dressed as mushrooms, rainbows, flowers, and teddy bears) but has more edge than Perry. Gaga has a certain edge but she’s very pretentious and striving to be artistic. Miley is not trying to be an artist, just a button pushing show girl. So she’s more fun than Gaga.

[soulster]

Except that Gaga has more talent then both of them put together, but doesn't use it much. She's too busy trying to show off and make social statements, and nowadays, it's falling on deaf ears, except for her core audience.

Katy Perry once said her albums reflect what she feels at whatever point she's in in her life. When she did her first album, she was as a christian. Her second album was her "turning 18" album, for lack of a better term. Her third album was as a young woman in her early 20s experiencing life. If her next album follows this logic, it should be about the aftermath of a failed marriage.

Lady Gaga? I have no idea...

I suspect that Miley's next album after this should be more mature...or maybe not. We'll see in a couple of years.

[soulster]

http://entertainment.time.com/2013/10/15/paul-mccartney-comes-to-miley-cyruss-defense/?hpt=hp_t3

[splanky]

I don't have a link right now but from what I understand Lady Gaga is scheduled to do an
album of duets with Tony Bennet. Tony has a penchant of dueting with a variety of[[ sometimes ostracised) singers as he's worked with Diana Krall, k.d. lang, Gaga before
and even thelate Amy Whinehouse. Quite well I might add...

[timmyfunk]

Except that Gaga has more talent then both of them put together, but doesn't use it much. She's too busy trying to show off and make social statements, and nowadays, it's falling on deaf ears, except for her core audience.

Katy Perry once said her albums reflect what she feels at whatever point she's in in her life. When she did her first album, she was as a christian. Her second album was her "turning 18" album, for lack of a better term. Her third album was as a young woman in her early 20s experiencing life. If her next album follows this logic, it should be about the aftermath of a failed marriage.

Lady Gaga? I have no idea...

I suspect that Miley's next album after this should be more mature...or maybe not. We'll see in a couple of years.

That is highly debatable. Madonna and most of the glorified mall rats that have came before her are usually defined by thoroughly contrived stage shows, overly spectacular [[not meant in a good way) musical productions, and voices that are seriously lacking in any kind of depth or range.

[soulster]

I think you are allowing your personal biases interfere with objectivity.

[timmyfunk]

I think you are allowing your personal biases interfere with objectivity.

And maybe you are letting your personal biases interfere with basic common sense.

[soulster]

Just because you dislike something does not make your subjective opinion about music fact.

[smark21]

Well Miley's album debut #1 in the US and a number of other countries. However on the singles charts her song Wrecking Ball is being kept from number 1 by 16 year old New Zealand singer Lorde, who seems to be an antidote to Miley. Her hit is called "Royals".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFasFq4GJYM

[Jerry Oz]

Well Miley's album debut #1 in the US and a number of other countries. However on the singles charts her song Wrecking Ball is being kept from number 1 by 16 year old New Zealand singer Lorde, who seems to be an antidote to Miley. Her hit is called "Royals".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFasFq4GJYMI actually love everything about this song. I hope that there is more to come from her. And in keeping with the theme of the thread, let's hope she decides that her voice is sufficient enough to sell records and not her skin.

[soulster]

Lorde has not been without her own controversy. She has been wrongly accused of being a racist because of her last hit about hip-hop artists embracing "bling".

[Jerry Oz]

That sounds like the song that's posted above... If so, that's poor reason to knock her IMO.

[timmyfunk]

Just because you dislike something does not make your subjective opinion about music fact.

And you can't prove otherwise. There's nothing being presented on this thread but opinions.

[soulster]

And you can't prove otherwise. There's nothing being presented on this thread but opinions.
Just as long as YOU remember that! :)

[timmyfunk]

Just as long as YOU remember that! :)

That's cool with me. As long as we ALL know that.