Question about definition of RnB

[edafan]

I am 71 years young white male who grew up collecting records in the late 1950's until 1980.

My question is the definition of RnB. Even the charts got confused, and stopped categorizing music for 3 years. I ran an 18 piece big band called Big Band revival until 1980.

I really love the 1950's RnB like Muddy Waters Howling Wolf Ella Dinah etc.
Elvis in some of his earlier stuff actually copied southern blues like Houndog.

Some of the lists of RnB have Ricky Nelson and others who do not have RnB elements. Were these categories just determined by the race of the buyer? These categories eventually were fixed. But are they determined solely by the race of the singer? For instance, I love Nat King Cole. I rally love his early stuff with the trio. Some of his later songs were very pop and they were geared for all markets. I guess I remain confused. Hall and Oates with Ruffin and Kendricks at the Appollo are true RnB.

To me RnB is/are the style rhythm of the song plus the delivery. Ruth Brown Ella Dinah Big Joe Turner.

Does anyone else who loves this genre have the same perplexing look at this stuff?

edafan

[Soul Sister]

I think Race Music, Jump Blues, & Rhythm & Blues of the 1940's & 50's counts as R & B.

edafan, Ella, Dinah, & Nat were Jazz. Often the lines can be blurred depending on what the record company made the Artist's sing. Jimmy considers himself Jazz, which mostly he is but he has recorded R & B records too for Decca, Savoy, & King.

You mentioned the following:
Ruth Brown & Big Joe Turner, I'd say R & B mainly.
Muddy Waters & Howling Wolf I'd say Blues [[Down Home Blues).
Hall & Oates [[Blue-eyed Soul), Ruffin & Kendricks Soul Music.
Ricky Nelson Rock n` Roll.

Just how I always saw it. Others may have other opinions.

S.S.
***

[edafan]

I think Race Music, Jump Blues, & Rhythm & Blues of the 1940's & 50's counts as R & B.

edafan, Ella, Dinah, & Nat were Jazz. Often the lines can be blurred depending on what the record company made the Artist's sing. Jimmy considers himself Jazz, which mostly he is but he has recorded R & B records too for Decca, Savoy, & King.

You mentioned the following:
Ruth Brown & Big Joe Turner, I'd say R & B mainly.
Muddy Waters & Howling Wolf I'd say Blues [[Down Home Blues).
Hall & Oates [[Blue-eyed Soul), Ruffin & Kendricks Soul Music.
Ricky Nelson Rock n` Roll.

Just how I always saw it. Others may have other opinions.

S.S.
***
I agree with all the facts you mention. I agree it is what the record company and producers wanted them to record. The confusion for me 40 years later is seeing songs and artists on an RnB list that to me are not RnB. I like the blues and jazz beginnings of RnB starting in the late 40's until the mid sixties, where you can hear harmonies and riffs that everyone later on copied for their songs. Thanks for the information. Say hello to Jimmy for me.

edafan

ps My trombone teacher was John Phillips Sousa's soloist.

[Soul Sister]

I hear you on that, edafan.

Will say "hello" to Jimmy.


S.S.
*** :)

[soulster]

Just how I always saw it. Others may have other opinions.

And, i'm that guy who always has the different opinion around here. :)



My question is the definition of RnB. Even the charts got confused, and stopped categorizing music for 3 years. When did they do that? Billboard eliminated the R&B chart for a few months in 1964 because they figured there was too much of an overlap of songs. They realized they were wrong and restored it. The name changed over the years to accommodate changing the cultural identities and radio. Labels like "Black", "Soul", "R&B", "urban", and even "race", have all been used.


Some of the lists of RnB have Ricky Nelson and others who do not have RnB elements. Were these categories just determined by the race of the buyer? These categories eventually were fixed. But are they determined solely by the race of the singer? For instance, I love Nat King Cole. I rally love his early stuff with the trio. Some of his later songs were very pop and they were geared for all markets. I guess I remain confused. Hall and Oates with Ruffin and Kendricks at the Appollo are true RnB.

They were determined by the type of radio stations, and the location of the record stores. The system was/is somewhat inaccurate.


Does anyone else who loves this genre have the same perplexing look at this stuff? Honestly, I hate labels! I hate pigeonholing music based on the subjectivity some unknown people who may not share my views. What I consider "R&B" may not be quite the same as what you consider "R&B". Labels encourage segregation of the music and the people. Labels create musical snobbishness.

[edafan]

And, i'm that guy who always has the different opinion around here. :)

When did they do that? Billboard eliminated the R&B chart for a few months in 1964 because they figured there was too much of an overlap of songs. They realized they were wrong and restored it. The name changed over the years to accommodate changing the cultural identities and radio. Labels like "Black", "Soul", "R&B", "urban", and even "race", have all been used.



They were determined by the type of radio stations, and the location of the record stores. The system was/is somewhat inaccurate.

Honestly, I hate labels! I hate pigeonholing music based on the subjectivity some unknown people who may not share my views. What I consider "R&B" may not be quite the same as what you consider "R&B". Labels encourage segregation of the music and the people. Labels create musical snobbishness.


thanks Soulster for the information. Some of my facts may have inaccuracies in them. Labels are not the best by no mwans. All I'm trying to do is get a good hold on RnB from the mid 1940's until the 1960's. I was too young or I spent my $.77 cents on a pop record like Ricky Nelson. In the late 1950's or ealy 1960's a record store owner let me sit for hours going over demo 45's to buy for 2 cents each. By ear I picked out some great songs by the Ivories, Tommy Ridgely and other RnB. I also picked out some songs from unknown at the time singers Carole King and Bobby Darin.

again thanks for the information.

edafan

[soulster]

What I always found interesting is what pop records R&B fans/buyers adopt as their own. For instance, The Rolling Stones' records were popular with R&B audiences, but The Beatles never charted on it once! Yet, The Beatles were just as popular as any other pop band.

[JIVE FIVE Mary G.]

What I always found interesting is what pop records R&B fans/buyers adopt as their own. For instance, The Rolling Stones' records were popular with R&B audiences, but The Beatles never charted on it once! Yet, The Beatles were just as popular as any other pop band.

That may be because the Stones records always had an B&B feel to them and the Beatles records did not. I have always prefered the Stones and the Animals music because of their sound. I loved the Beatles, too, but always felt they were more pop/rock and roll.

~~Mary~~

[edafan]

What I always found interesting is what pop records R&B fans/buyers adopt as their own. For instance, The Rolling Stones' records were popular with R&B audiences, but The Beatles never charted on it once! Yet, The Beatles were just as popular as any other pop band.
I lived in Lynn MA growing up.
2 items happened in Manning Bowl Lynn in the 1960's I can never forget. The Philadelphia Eagles were playing the Chicago Bears in an exhibition game.
I sold ice cream for an hour gave them the money and ice cream and jumped down to the field and stood next to those great great football players like Chuck Bednarik Rick C aseres etc.
A little later the Rolling Stones played a concert at the same field, and I could have hopped the fence, or done my ice cream trick to gain entrance, but I didn't think they were good enough to do that.

edafan

[soulster]

That may be because the Stones records always had an B&B feel to them and the Beatles records did not. I have always prefered the Stones and the Animals music because of their sound. I loved the Beatles, too, but always felt they were more pop/rock and roll.

~~Mary~~ Well, I disagree. Records like "Ticket To Ride", "Eight Days A Week" [[which has that Curtis Mayfield Chi-town sound to it), "Drive My Car", "Hey Jude", and "Let It Be". I don't have my chart book handy, but i'm almost certain The Rolling Stones' "Brown Sugar" even hit the R&B chart.

[edafan]

What I really love about this forum is the knowledge I gain
about music the industry from the people who were really there.

thanks again to all those who replied on this thread

edafan

[antceleb12]

Even today you see music stores [[iTunes, the like) categorizing R&B by race. For instance, one store placed Corinne Bailey Rae into the R&B category, although her music is far from typical modern "R&B" [[it's rather alternative- and jazz-influenced). On the other hand, I've seen Amy Winehouse's "Back to Black," which, in my opinion, epitomizes the R&B sound of the 1960's, in the pop or rock category.

But where do you put artists like Diana Ross or Dionne Warwick? There have been debates as to whether or not they should be considered R&B or pop. They've both recorded material that could fall into many categories. Like soulster said, labels are very ambiguous and can be interpreted in many ways. Shoot, when I go into a music shop, I often have to check multiple genres for a particular artist, as each shop will usually organize genres differently!

"To each his own."

[edafan]

Even today you see music stores [[iTunes, the like) categorizing R&B by race. For instance, one store placed Corinne Bailey Rae into the R&B category, although her music is far from typical modern "R&B" [[it's rather alternative- and jazz-influenced). On the other hand, I've seen Amy Winehouse's "Back to Black," which, in my opinion, epitomizes the R&B sound of the 1960's, in the pop or rock category.

But where do you put artists like Diana Ross or Dionne Warwick? There have been debates as to whether or not they should be considered R&B or pop. They've both recorded material that could fall into many categories. Like soulster said, labels are very ambiguous and can be interpreted in many ways. Shoot, when I go into a music shop, I often have to check multiple genres for a particular artist, as each shop will usually organize genres differently!

"To each his own."

Thanks for these notes. I guess I like the roots of RnB like the jazz roots, hillbilly roots the blues roots from the mid 1940's up until Motown moved from Detroit the best of all.
Especially since now I can hear these great roots on the internet, Youtube, etc.

Now I can listen to artists who I didn't collect as a kid growing up buying 45's.


Just today I listened to all the charted songs of Charlie Rich.
Man that guy could sing. Also I listened to his b sides and his uncharted tunes.

Somedays I put on Howlin Wolf

Somedays Johnny Ace

The internet especially SDF has made this like
reliving the great music of my youth, some I never heard before.

edafan

[edafan]

And, i'm that guy who always has the different opinion around here. :)

When did they do that? Billboard eliminated the R&B chart for a few months in 1964 because they figured there was too much of an overlap of songs. They realized they were wrong and restored it. The name changed over the years to accommodate changing the cultural identities and radio. Labels like "Black", "Soul", "R&B", "urban", and even "race", have all been used.

Here is what I was referring to:

Gap in the chart[edit]

From November 30, 1963 to January 23, 1965 there was no Billboard R&B singles charts. Some publications have used Cash Box magazine's stats in their place. No specific reason has ever been given as to why Billboard ceased releasing R&B charts, but the prevailing wisdom is that the chart methodology used was being questioned, since more and more Caucasian acts were reaching number-one on the R&B chart. According to researcher Joel Whitburn, "there was so much crossover of titles between the R&B and pop singles [[Hot 100) charts that Billboard considered the charts to be too similar. This does not mean that R&B artists stopped turning out hits. After all, it was during this 14-month period that Motown established itself as an R&B institution."[1]






They were determined by the type of radio stations, and the location of the record stores. The system was/is somewhat inaccurate.

Honestly, I hate labels! I hate pigeonholing music based on the subjectivity some unknown people who may not share my views. What I consider "R&B" may not be quite the same as what you consider "R&B". Labels encourage segregation of the music and the people. Labels create musical snobbishness.

I took this information from wikipedia
I guess the whole world especially Billboard and

Joel Whitburn were confused
edafan