The "new" Supremes / Diana Ross [[solo) on Ed Sullivan

[marybrewster]

Has it ever been discussed why the "new" Supremes only made one appearance on the Ed Sullivan Show and Diana Ross [[solo) never appeared?

In the 60's, Diana and Mary, Flo/Cindy DOMINATED the show; after Diana left the Supremes in 1970, the Ed Sullivan Show was still on the air for another 12 - 18 months; in that time, The Supremes would have been on 5-6 times.

So what gives?

[Kamasu_Jr]

Ed Sullivan was cancelled in March of 1971. The show was no longer considered hip so CBS canned it and a lot of other old favorites like The Beverly Hillbillies to change it's audience. The network wanted younger viewers. Diana Ross had her own TV special in 1971 and was beginning work on LSTB.

[carole cucumber]

http://www.tv.com/shows/the-ed-sullivan-show/episodes/

Several Motown artists did appear even until March 1971 including the Jackson 5, Temptations, Gladys Knight &the Pips, Four Tops , and Rare Earth.

[reese]

No guess as to why the Supremes didn't continue with Ed, as they were often on television in the early 70s. By comparison, Diana did very little television once she became a solo artist, and usually it was something big, like a TV special or promotion for a film. That first year, she only appeared on the Merv Griffin show.

[I ♥ The Supremes and Temptations]

That always struck me as odd
For example look at The Jackson 5 they were on every program in the 70's.
You would think Gordy would have done the same for Diana but maybe he feared overexposure?

No guess as to why the Supremes didn't continue with Ed, as they were often on television in the early 70s. By comparison, Diana did very little television once she became a solo artist, and usually it was something big, like a TV special or promotion for a film. That first year, she only appeared on the Merv Griffin show.

[Kamasu_Jr]

Gordy didn't fear overexposure for Diana Ross, but he probably wanted the same kind of mega superstardom like Elvis, Barbra Streisand and a few elite others who didn't need constant exposure on TV. Diana Ross was not the kind of entertainer who could be booked on Flip Wilson's weekly variety show. She was the star of her own TV spectaculars , and if anything, Flip Wilson would be booked as her guest.

[carole cucumber]

No guess as to why the Supremes didn't continue with Ed, as they were often on television in the early 70s.

I've always wondered if Ed Sullivan's uncertainty/confusion about the individual Supreme's names after that performance [[mentioned by Mary in 'Supreme Faith') might have had something to do with it.
Perhaps someone from Motown said something negative to someone on Ed's staff or Ed something negative to a Motown representative, creating a tension that would need time to heal- a time which did not come before his show was cancelled.

[jillfoster]

Diana Ross was not the kind of entertainer who could be booked on Flip Wilson's weekly variety show. She was the star of her own TV spectaculars , and if anything, Flip Wilson would be booked as her guest.

you mean like the time she appeared on the Midnight Special, and Dick Clark's Live Wednesday? And then there's the Muppet Show. So let me get this straight... she's too big for Flip Wilson, but not too big for Kermit the Frog? Ok.

[Kamasu_Jr]

Those TV appearances came after Diana Ross had been nominated for and lost the Academy Award and they were touted as special or rare events. Gordy's plan had worked and the game had changed. She wanted to do the Muppet Show, which came as she was about to leave or had left Motown. Maybe Flip Wilson didn't like her; After all he was Mary Wilson's friend, which might explain why she never appeared on his show. I love a good conspiracy theory.

[vgalindo]

Those TV appearances came after Diana Ross had been nominated and lost the Academy Award and they were touted as special or rare events. Gordy's plan had worked and the game had changed. She wanted to do the Muppet Show, which came as she was about to leave or had left Motown. Maybe Flip Wilson didn't like her, which might explain why she never appeared on his show.

This is so true. She didn't just appear on the Midnight Special...She hosted The Midnight Special. She did the Dick Clark special because this was a big event for TV and Dick Clark and she really did like him. She also always wanted to do Soul Train but Motown wouldn't allow it. As soon as she left Motown she appeared on Soul Train with a show dedicated to her.

[reese]

This is so true. She didn't just appear on the Midnight Special...She hosted The Midnight Special. She did the Dick Clark special because this was a big event for TV and Dick Clark and she really did like him. She also always wanted to do Soul Train but Motown wouldn't allow it. As soon as she left Motown she appeared on Soul Train with a show dedicated to her.

Also, the Dick Clark appearance was special, as it was the first episode of his new live series. It was mentioned that she had to run over from her own opening at the Universal Ampitheatre to do it.

[reese]

I've always wondered if Ed Sullivan's uncertainty/confusion about the individual Supreme's names after that performance [[mentioned by Mary in 'Supreme Faith') might have had something to do with it.
Perhaps someone from Motown said something negative to someone on Ed's staff or Ed something negative to a Motown representative, creating a tension that would need time to heal- a time which did not come before his show was cancelled.

Looking at the appearance itself, I don't think Ed's confusing of the names was any different that what he did with other acts. I can't imagine Motown saying anything negative to Ed, as good as he had been to the Supremes and other Motown acts over the years. And it could only help Ed to keep popular acts on his show as his ratings were starting to drop.

It could just be when it came to both Diana and the new Supremes, Motown felt they wanted to start fresh, and leave Sullivan behind.

[jillfoster]

This is so true. She didn't just appear on the Midnight Special...She hosted The Midnight Special. She did the Dick Clark special because this was a big event for TV and Dick Clark and she really did like him. She also always wanted to do Soul Train but Motown wouldn't allow it. As soon as she left Motown she appeared on Soul Train with a show dedicated to her.

It wasn't a special, it was his new TV variety series... and yes, she was on the first episode, but that series is remembered for one thing, and that is the first appearance of Connie Francis after she left the business following her rape. Dick Clark broke down and cried on national TV after she got through performing, and the rest of the country cried right along with him. I know me and my mother did when we watched it that night.

[vgalindo]

It wasn't a special, it was his new TV variety series... and yes, she was on the first episode, but that series is remembered for one thing, and that is the first appearance of Connie Francis after she left the business following her rape. Dick Clark broke down and cried on national TV after she got through performing, and the rest of the country cried right along with him. I know me and my mother did when we watched it that night. You are right it was the first episode of his new TV variety show. I could hardly wait to see it. We had friends over and my heart was pounding in anticipation of Diana and she nailed it. I don't remember the rest of the show about Connie Francis. I do love Connie Francis now but back then I was a teenager and Diana was all that mattered.

[milven]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqF69N3HWP4

[RossHolloway]

So what was Diana's first tv appearance/performance post-Supreme's in 1970?

[marv2]

I saw that show that night in September 1978. It was anti climatic to me. She was obviously trying too hard and the production seemed overblown for television.

Regarding the Ed Sullivan Show. I like millions watched it with my family throughout the 60's and by the time the 70's rolled around, it was becoming stale. Still I continued to watch all the way up to the end in 1971. Not until now did I ever wonder why the Supremes were not on there past their appearance in early 1970. There were lots of newer shows, hipper shows with The Flip Wilson Show being one of them. The Supremes did not have to be on Ed Sullivan anymore to be seen by millions. Same goes for Diane.

[milven]

I saw that night in September 1978....The production seemed overblown for television.


After all these years, we can't expect anything positive from you about Diana. Overblown for television does not describe this performance for me. I think it is her best TV performance of MOUNTAIN. Orchrestra , strings, chorus, the whole nine yards. Dick rolled out the red carpet for her. Letterman does it for Darlene Love every year. And Letterman recently did it for Gladys Knight when she debuted her new song on his show with a full orchrestra.

These "full blown" performances are appreciated by a lot of people who can't see the performers live.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uD99c3otHDA

[Kamasu_Jr]

Marv, made a good point. By the early 1970s, there were newer and hipper TV shows for artists like the Supremes and the Jackson 5 to get exposure. Ed Sullivan was no longer the only game in town. He got huge ratings in the 1950s and early 1960s because he didn't have much competition. You either watched Ed Sullivan or Lil' Joe and Hoss on Bonanza or you went to bed. Because Ed Sullivan demanded the best black performers, he got huge ratings. But soon, there was competition from the Hollywood Palace, Andy Williams, Dean Martin, Red Skelton and other variety programs that Blacks could be seen.
Does anyone remember that after Jean Terrell and the Supremes made their debut on Ed Sullivan, he began booking other female groups like the Three Degrees and the Blossoms? The Three Degrees were on the Sullivan show twice in the early Seventies. What happened to the Supremes' exclusive with Ed?
FLIP Wilson was one of the first black performers to have his own network TV variety show and his popularity and ratings were bigger than Ed Sullivan's. It became better to be on his show. Another TV show the Supremes did not appear on was the Carol Burnett Show. She only booked traditional black acts like Ella Fitzgerald and Sammy Davis Jr. It was years before Burnett had younger blacks like Melba Moore, the Jacksons and the Pointer Sisters on her show.

[Roberta75]

I saw that show that night in September 1978. It was anti climatic to me. She was obviously trying too hard and the production seemed overblown for television.

lolololololololol. Priceless.

[reese]

So what was Diana's first tv appearance/performance post-Supreme's in 1970?

The Merv Griffin Show. She sang REACH OUT AND TOUCH and AIN'T NO MOUNTAIN HIGH ENOUGH.

[jillfoster]

After all these years, we can't expect anything positive from you about Diana. Overblown for television does not describe this performance for me. I think it is her best TV performance of MOUNTAIN. Orchrestra , strings, chorus, the whole nine yards. Dick rolled out the red carpet for her. Letterman does it for Darlene Love every year. And Letterman recently did it for Gladys Knight when she debuted her new song on his show with a full orchrestra.

These "full blown" performances are appreciated by a lot of people who can't see the performers live.


I hate to break it to you, Milven, but Dick Clark had that full blown orchestra and chorus and whole 9 yards for everyone who appeared on that show. that was the whole concept, a big, spectacular, awards show type of performance that you could see on a weekly basis. It was a great show, and I felt it might have been more successful if it had been more music oriented, and left off the comedians and stunt magicians, etc. As far as Diana's performance, it's very good. I know Marv said it was overblown, but you know me... I LOVE overblown. I only had a couple of issues. First, she should ahve worn something other than a black dress, as she blended in with the stage and set too much, and I felt her spoken parts of the song were far too breathy and overly melodramatic. I don't care for spoken parts in songs, anyway.. but her breathless overexaggerated delivery on that part was kind of ridiculous. The singing portions were great! I mentioned Connie Francis' appearance earlier, the entire thing used to be on youtube, but it's not anymore... here you can see the end of it starting at 1:30, full orchestra, the whole bit. And I also want to point out that Connie got a standing O.. Diana didn't.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJJtSeXzdXc

[smark21]

Dick Clark's variety show was cancelled after 13 weeks due to low ratings. It was up against hit shows in The Jeffersons on CBS and 8 is Enough on ABC. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1978%E2%80%9379_United_States_network_television_s chedule

[milven]

I hate to break it to you, Milven, but Dick Clark had that full blown orchestra and chorus and whole 9 yards for everyone who appeared on that show. that was the whole concept, a big, spectacular, awards show type of performance that you could see on a weekly basis.

Thanks Jill. I watched the show every week for the short time it was on and you are right. The full blown orchrestra and chorus was the rule , not the exception for Diana.


... As far as Diana's performance, it's very good. I know Marv said it was overblown, but you know me... I LOVE overblown. I only had a couple of issues. First, she should ahve worn something other than a black dress, as she blended in with the stage and set too much, and I felt her spoken parts of the song were far too breathy and overly melodramatic. I don't care for spoken parts in songs, anyway.. but her breathless overexaggerated delivery on that part was kind of ridiculous. The singing portions were great!

I'm not much into fashion and so I have no comment about her black dress, although I thought she looked good. As for her spoken part of the song, after I heard a version of the same arrangement by Vikki Carr, I stopped liking Diana's spoken part. I'm definately in the minority here with that opinion, but I think with Diana's acting skills, she could have done a different and better take on the spoken part.



I mentioned Connie Francis' appearance earlier, the entire thing used to be on youtube, but it's not anymore... here you can see the end of it starting at 1:30, full orchestra, the whole bit. And I also want to point out that Connie got a standing O.. Diana didn't.

Thanks for posting this little clip. I remember the show, but don't remember her being on the same show as Diana. Yep , there is the full blown orchrestra for Connie too.
It was nice to see her performing again. I had been a fan of hers since Who's Sorry Now

[reese]

Dick Clark's variety show was cancelled after 13 weeks due to low ratings. It was up against hit shows in The Jeffersons on CBS and 8 is Enough on ABC. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1978%E2%80%9379_United_States_network_television_s chedule

I thought it was a very good series, albeit a brief one. Subsequent weeks had guests such as Aretha [[dressed like an Egyptian queen), Dionne Warwick, and Sarah Dash singing SINNER MAN in one of her first solo appearances.

[jillfoster]

Thanks Jill. I watched the show every week for the short time it was on and you are right. The full blown orchrestra and chorus was the rule , not the exception for Diana.



I'm not much into fashion and so I have no comment about her black dress, although I thought she looked good. As for her spoken part of the song, after I heard a version of the same arrangement by Vikki Carr, I stopped liking Diana's spoken part. I'm definately in the minority here with that opinion, but I think with Diana's acting skills, she could have done a different and better take on the spoken part.




Thanks for posting this little clip. I remember the show, but don't remember her being on the same show as Diana. Yep , there is the full blown orchrestra for Connie too.
It was nice to see her performing again. I had been a fan of hers since Who's Sorry Now

She wasn't on the same episode as Diana, Diana was the "headliner" of the first episode, and Connie was the "headliner" of another episode.

[luke]

Kind of a bizarre question for Clark to ask her--she had been traumatized!!

[REDHOT]

Motown was trying to bill Diana as the black Barbra Streisand,Barbra really didn't do tv,a lot of people thought Barbra was such a big star,was the reason she didn't do tv,[[wrong)that was a bad move on Motown,Diana should have been doing lots of tv,she had a lot to prove,she was no longer a SUPREME,part of a group,Motown put the push behind Diana,it didn't matter,at the time The Supremes Mary Cindy and new Supreme Jean Terrell were doing better then Diana,as fare as Diana bein' too big for The Flip Wilson Show,really? lol,now that's TOO FUNNY,i 'll say this again,no female singer at Motown,was gonna out shine Diana,no matter what,Berry Gordy wasn't having it.[[NEVER)Please stay positive

[BayouMotownMan]

Good observation RedHot, Gordy was feeding America Diana doses in small amounts to get the hunger for and the demand up for her.

As far as Sullivan and the Supremes, likely Sullivan lost interest in the group. I love Jean Terrell, she remains my favorite singer and favorite Supreme. But face it, she couldn't handle the adult material that Diana could spit out. She couldn't have done Fats Waller, Thou Swell or I Get A Kick out Of You the way Ross. Ross even got away with tripping on that last song. LOL.

[Kamasu_Jr]

Diana Ross was too big of a star to have appeared on the Flip Wilson Show. She didn't need to. Most of her rivals like Dionne Warwick, Lola Falana, Aretha, Gladys Knight and Leslie Uggams did, but they weren't on Diana's level. Chuckle if you want, But we've pretty much agreed that Motown, Shelly Berger , Berry Gordy or whoever desired a different kind of star power, respect or stature for Diana Ross and they were SERIOUS. Gordy saw her as being equal to or just as good as Streisand and Liza Minnelli, and neither of them appeared on Flip Wilson or the Ed Sullivan show much. Streisand did at the early part of her career before she starred in her own TV specials and films, which is exactly what Diana Ross did too.

[marv2]

Motown was trying to bill Diana as the black Barbra Streisand,Barbra really didn't do tv,a lot of people thought Barbra was such a big star,was the reason she didn't do tv,[[wrong)that was a bad move on Motown,Diana should have been doing lots of tv,she had a lot to prove,she was no longer a SUPREME,part of a group,Motown put the push behind Diana,it didn't matter,at the time The Supremes Mary Cindy and new Supreme Jean Terrell were doing better then Diana,as fare as Diana bein' too big for The Flip Wilson Show,really? lol,now that's TOO FUNNY,i 'll say this again,no female singer at Motown,was gonna out shine Diana,no matter what,Berry Gordy wasn't having it.[[NEVER)Please stay positive

I saw both Lena Horne and Aretha Franklin on the Flip Wilson Show.

[marv2]

Good observation RedHot, Gordy was feeding America Diana doses in small amounts to get the hunger for and the demand up for her.

As far as Sullivan and the Supremes, likely Sullivan lost interest in the group. I love Jean Terrell, she remains my favorite singer and favorite Supreme. But face it, she couldn't handle the adult material that Diana could spit out. She couldn't have done Fats Waller, Thou Swell or I Get A Kick out Of You the way Ross. Ross even got away with tripping on that last song. LOL.

and Diane could have never handled the very adult, "Beyond Myself"!

[jobeterob]

Of all the songs Jean did, Beyond Myself was a screechville mess; even she thought so.

[marv2]

Of all the songs Jean did, Beyond Myself was a screechville mess; even she thought so.

It's one of my favorites. Gorgeous vocal, very dramatic and very complex.

[jobeterob]

There were many good songs on that album; it just came out at the wrong time and was poorly handled by the group and Motown. If they had dropped the key of that particular song a little bit, Jean wouldn't have had to yell.

[carole cucumber]

I love Jean Terrell, she remains my favorite singer and favorite Supreme. But face it, she couldn't handle the adult material that Diana could spit out. She couldn't have done Fats Waller, Thou Swell or I Get A Kick out Of You the way Ross. Ross even got away with tripping on that last song. LOL.


I'm not so sure about that. When Jean began 'If My Friends Could See Me Now" solo and segued into "Nothing Can Stop Us Now" interpolated with parts of "Once In A Lifetime" now joined by Mary & Cindy, she did so in a way reminiscent of Diana. If they had continued with the Sullivan circuit, these 'New Supremes' [[as Ed Sullivan introduces them) would likely have done a bit of Broadway/American songbook followed by their latest single. From her first [[and regrettably, only) appearance on Ed Sullivan's show, she certainly looked as if she had the goods to pull it off.
On the other hand, I acknowledge that Jean would likely rebel if she were told on too many occasions to 'do it the way Diana did it' or to do the Broadway/American Songbook selections Diana did on Sullivan with Mary & Cindy. But I believe that Jean might have welcomed the challenge of singing again as she did on the Feb 1970 Sullivan with other newly arranged 'old songs' worked up into medleys.

[supremester]

A JMC nut told me they did 15 TV appearances through April 18, 1971. I can't imagine they were on that much, but I have no reason to doubt him. Ross did Merv Griffin in September '70, Tonight Show [[date unknown), sat in the audience losing The Grammy to Dionne, Make Room For Granddaddy and Diana! As for Ed Sullivan, I can't imagine that ED was unhappy with JMC's performance, so it might have been scheduling conflicts, maybe Motown wasn't feeling Ed's aging demographic, maybe Ed wasn't feeling JMC. He WAS feeling Miss Ross as he attended her opening at The Waldorf in '70 & '71 - plus he did a tribute to Diana Ross on his swan song special "The Sullivan Years" and, until this moment, I didn't notice the word "Supremes" was not uttered in the voice-over once. "We were able to watch Diana Ross' road to stardom every step of the way." Maybe he didn't like JMC but IMHO there could not have been a better debut for The Rossless Supremes. Maybe they were too good so Gordy pulled them from Ed's show so that they wouldn't sellout another new single across the country overnight like in DreamGirl. Personally, I think it's either Ed was over JMC [[he WAS a Rosser and oddly, this was Cindy's only Sullivan appearance without a gown change and was also the shortest amount of airtime.) Maybe scheduling, but that doesn't make much sense. They were doing The Copa 3x a year and could easily have done Ed's show and another song from the act. I would have loved to hear them sing Exodus.

[jillfoster]

A JMC nut told me they did 15 TV appearances through April 18, 1971. I can't imagine they were on that much, but I have no reason to doubt him. Ross did Merv Griffin in September '70, Tonight Show [[date unknown), sat in the audience losing The Grammy to Dionne, Make Room For Granddaddy and Diana! As for Ed Sullivan, I can't imagine that ED was unhappy with JMC's performance, so it might have been scheduling conflicts, maybe Motown wasn't feeling Ed's aging demographic, maybe Ed wasn't feeling JMC. He WAS feeling Miss Ross as he attended her opening at The Waldorf in '70 & '71 - plus he did a tribute to Diana Ross on his swan song special "The Sullivan Years" and, until this moment, I didn't notice the word "Supremes" was not uttered in the voice-over once. "We were able to watch Diana Ross' road to stardom every step of the way." Maybe he didn't like JMC but IMHO there could not have been a better debut for The Rossless Supremes. Maybe they were too good so Gordy pulled them from Ed's show so that they wouldn't sellout another new single across the country overnight like in DreamGirl. Personally, I think it's either Ed was over JMC [[he WAS a Rosser and oddly, this was Cindy's only Sullivan appearance without a gown change and was also the shortest amount of airtime.) Maybe scheduling, but that doesn't make much sense. They were doing The Copa 3x a year and could easily have done Ed's show and another song from the act. I would have loved to hear them sing Exodus.


1: Ed Sullivan [[Up the Ladder, If they Could See Me Now)
2: Andy Williams [[Up the Ladder, Everybody's Got The Right)
3: Festival At Ford's Theatre
4: Smokey Robinson special
5: This Is Tom Jones
6. Pearl Bailey Show
7. Tonight Show
8. Glen Campbell Goodtime Hour
9. Flip Wilson
10. David Frost Show
11. Merv Griffin Show

I might have missed a couple.

[Jimi LaLumia]

Sullivan was very good at his job, and I love the early Jean records , but she was hardly telegenic, she didn't play to the camera as Ross did, she just kind of stood there, might be good singing, not very good television, Jean was emanating singing power, but she sadly wouldn't or couldn't transmit the STAR power that Diana Ross could and can do in her sleep!

[REDHOT]

Yes,The Supremes Mary Cindy and Jean did sang Exodus,in they live show's,Jean's lead is AMAZING,and Mary and Cindy's background harmonies,was the icing on the cake,THE BEST,Please stay positive

[jillfoster]

Sullivan was very good at his job, and I love the early Jean records , but she was hardly telegenic, she didn't play to the camera as Ross did, she just kind of stood there, might be good singing, not very good television, Jean was emanating singing power, but she sadly wouldn't or couldn't transmit the STAR power that Diana Ross could and can do in her sleep!

I always felt Mary was the most telegenic of them all. She always caught my eye from the very beginning, first, because she was the prettiest, and second, because her moves were always so perfect and graceful, and her smile so bright and genuine. You knew beyond a doubt that she truly LOVED what she was doing.

[luke]

Yes Mary certainly was the most beautiful and telegenic IMO, and clearly the best dancer. Ive also felt Cindy's beauty got overshadowed. I had a friend not into Motown who went crazy for the Webb album when he hear it, especially Jean on Beyond MYself, which still gives me chills.

[jobeterob]

Luke, exactly where do you get these chills?

[REDHOT]

Well said Jillfoster,

[Penny]

Well said Jillfoster,

And it was very positive I might add!

Penny:cool:

[marv2]

Mary Wilson was always so beautiful [[and hot!) it was ridiculous! LOL! It was she that gave the Supremes their visual appeal from the very beginning and all the way through......

[Jimi LaLumia]

Ha ha!..now THAT'S Funny!.. we're talking about television, and by mid 1965 70% of screen time was [[rightfully) devoted to Ross.. the others?...not so much, an occasional glimpse/smile here and there..

[jillfoster]

Ha ha!..now THAT'S Funny!.. we're talking about television, and by mid 1965 70% of screen time was [[rightfully) devoted to Ross.. the others?...not so much, an occasional glimpse/smile here and there..

I guess that's why Mary is standing in front here:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwLyOIUv2RY

[jillfoster]

Ain't no 70% here:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lfuu1cvvMhY

Say it isn't so!!!

[Jimi LaLumia]

so sad..trying to re write settled history.. for whom?.. it is what it is.. The Beatles let Ringo sing once in a while too..

[jillfoster]

so sad..trying to re write settled history.. for whom?.. it is what it is.. The Beatles let Ringo sing once in a while too..

No, but you can't seem to grasp that only gay men and drag queens loved Diana Ross. Straight men's dicks didn't get hard for Diana. for Mary, YES. And now your'e doggin Ringo Starr? a man with 7 top 10 hits?

[Roberta75]

No, but you can't seem to grasp that only gay men and drag queens loved Diana Ross. Straight men's dicks didn't get hard for Diana. for Mary, YES. And now your'e doggin Ringo Starr? a man with 7 top 10 hits?

more unsubstantiated crude and vulgar nonsense from the know it all landscaper.

[TheMotownManiac]

Can you grasp your comment is horse shit? Your implied marginalization of gay males is infuriating and enlightening. Lots of straight men found and still find The Supreme Supreme sexy. My guess is that Jill must have had an extraordinary amount of contact with the male heterosexual genitalia to be comfortable to make such a firm, albeit incorrect, statement. All three Supremes had their admirers to suggest otherwise is foolish. Additionally, to what end is this statement being discussed? Is there a qualification as to the sexual orientation of music fans? What about right or left handedness? Suppose it was said, "ONLY" blacks liked Mary? Think it O-O-ver. My guess at the straight/gay mix of the few men at the last Mary show I personally saw: 10/90 in favor of gays. I'd venture to say Mary has enjoyed more support from gay men than straight since she went solo/. I wasn't around at the time, anyone care to chime in? Does it matter??
No, but you can't seem to grasp that only gay men and drag queens loved Diana Ross. Straight men's dicks didn't get hard for Diana. for Mary, YES. And now your'e doggin Ringo Starr? a man with 7 top 10 hits?

[TheMotownManiac]

No female at Motown COULD outshine Diana Ross - never did, never has. Thelma Houston and Gladys Knight can both sing circles around Mary Wilson - one made it, one struggled. Which one got "the push?" Martha Reeves got "the push" at MCA, Arista and Fantasy while The 70's Supremes, with no push, outsold her - despite Martha's legacy of hits. How do you explain this?
Motown was trying to bill Diana as the black Barbra Streisand,Barbra really didn't do tv,a lot of people thought Barbra was such a big star,was the reason she didn't do tv,[[wrong)that was a bad move on Motown,Diana should have been doing lots of tv,she had a lot to prove,she was no longer a SUPREME,part of a group,Motown put the push behind Diana,it didn't matter,at the time The Supremes Mary Cindy and new Supreme Jean Terrell were doing better then Diana,as fare as Diana bein' too big for The Flip Wilson Show,really? lol,now that's TOO FUNNY,i 'll say this again,no female singer at Motown,was gonna out shine Diana,no matter what,Berry Gordy wasn't having it.[[NEVER)Please stay positive

[REDHOT]

LOL,For that matter,Gladys Knight and Thelma Houston could sing circles around Diana Ross too,no female singer at Motown outshine Diana Ross,was all politics,i'll say it again,Berry Gordy was not gonna let any female singer at Motown,outshine Diana,Yes it was all in Berry Gordy's hands.Stop,IN The Name Of Love lol

[Jimi LaLumia]

the music business is part of the entertainment business, NOT the singing business..there are millions at AMERICAN IDOL auditions that can outsing all the folks listed..
it's the 'entertainment' part in which no one can touch Ross, and Gordy knew that.. ever see a film with Gladys 'acting' in it?..please.. for those who think it's just about who outsings who, you're in the WRONG business...maybe sexy Mary should have done some of those sex tapes, cos none of those hard on's she generated ever turned into sales for anything she's done since 1980...just the facts, m'am..

[marv2]

LOL,For that matter,Gladys Knight and Thelma Houston could sing circles around Diana Ross too,no female singer at Motown outshine Diana Ross,was all politics,i'll say it again,Berry Gordy was not gonna let any female singer at Motown,outshine Diana,Yes it was all in Berry Gordy's hands.Stop,IN The Name Of Love lol

Add Jean, Martha, Cal, Mary, Scherrie and Susaye to your list.........

[marv2]

the music business is part of the entertainment business, NOT the singing business..there are millions at AMERICAN IDOL auditions that can outsing all the folks listed..
it's the 'entertainment' part in which no one can touch Ross, and Gordy knew that.. ever see a film with Gladys 'acting' in it?..please.. for those who think it's just about who outsings who, you're in the WRONG business...maybe sexy Mary should have done some of those sex tapes, cos none of those hard on's she generated ever turned into sales for anything she's done since 1980...just the facts, m'am..

She must have been selling something [[her singing talents and performance expertise...) people wanted and paid for, to have become a multi-millionaire.

Gladys was quite good in the TV series "Charlie & Company" with Flip Wilson.

Sex tapes? Not required. She always was the sexy one. Still is.

[jobeterob]

The Temptations and Diana Ross concerts I went to in the last few years were 90% old people, mostly couples; a few noticeably gay people. So? And the Supremes, Diana Ross, Mary Wilson had a somewhat larger gay following. So? Mary Wilson had bigger boobs too. And Diana Ross had more kids. Who's to say which of them had more guys. So?

We can hash over "why" things happened, whether it was Berry Gordy, an un commercial voice, an indistinct voice, Motown, bad management, bad marriages, any kind of substance abuse ~ a few people made it big: Diana Ross, Stevie Wonder, Marvin Gaye, Gladys Knight, Aretha Franklin, Whitney Houston, Michael Jackson. [[Aretha Franklin made it and had almost everything against her). A few of those people had a life you would have to be crazy to want.

Many other people out of Motown or Detroit did not make it as big hitmakers and people well known to the public: Mary Wilson, Scherrie Payne, Susaye Greene, Lynda Laurence, Jean Terrell, Liz Lands, and a myriad of Pips, Temptations, Miracles, Tops, Contours and Commodores. Many of them did OK and carved out a fine musical career and many of them live well because they saved and took care with their finances and taxes. Good for them. They did a great job. And some didn't fare so well.

And you can't change what happened, no matter what caused it.

You can be mad. That Mirage guy is mad. Marv is mad. And there are others. They make miserable ugly Youtube comments like Marv.

Life deals a hand that can be a bitch at times. You either roll with it or you don't.

[Roberta75]

LOL,For that matter,Gladys Knight and Thelma Houston could sing circles around Diana Ross too,no female singer at Motown outshine Diana Ross,was all politics,i'll say it again,Berry Gordy was not gonna let any female singer at Motown,outshine Diana,Yes it was all in Berry Gordy's hands.Stop,IN The Name Of Love lol

You don't like mr Gordy much do you REDHOT lol. all the pushing and politics in the world wont make a star unless the star has talent and drive and charisma and a hunger for stardom. Diane Ross had all of those thing.

Roberta

[marv2]

You don't like mr Gordy much do you REDHOT lol. all the pushing and politics in the world wont make a star unless the star has talent and drive and charisma and a hunger for stardom. Diane Ross had all of those thing.

Roberta

Evidently, sleeping with the Boss helps! The point is that there were many, many other women and men at Motown that had as much or more talent than Diana Ross. They all had certain levels of drive or they would not have been there to begin with under contract. Diane decided she needed an edge over the others so she began sleeping with Berry. That is why he saw her as "special" when no one else in Detroit did! LOL!

[Roberta75]

Evidently, sleeping with the Boss helps! The point is that there were many, many other women and men at Motown that has as much or more talent than Diana Ross. They all had certain levels of drive or they would not have been there to begin with under contract. Diane decided she needed an edge over the others so she began sleeping with Berry. That is why he saw her as "special" when no one else in Detroit did! LOL!

Nobody in the entire city of Detroit thought Diane was special? You ask everyone whoa live there? Did you ever try to sleep with mr Gordy to make you special?

[marv2]

Nobody in the entire city of Detroit thought Diane was special? You ask everyone whoa live there? Did you ever tray to sleep with mr Gordy to make you special?

Although it is immoral, sleeping with the boss can get you promoted! Stay on the moral high ground chirren and you will go further in the long run........

[skooldem1]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjEOv60qBhQ

[Roberta75]

Although it is immoral, sleeping with the boss can get you promoted! Stay on the moral high ground chirren and you will go further in the long run........

Its also immoral to bully people and hurl hurtful homophobic slurs Imo but
that dont seem to stop you. Take the high road and youll have a more peaceful journey along life highway.

[luke]

Glady Knight got some rave reviews for Pipe Dreams. Sister Mary Superiority telling someone shes a know it all!! Now THAT'S precious!!lolol

[marv2]

Its also immoral to bully people and hurl hurtful homophobic slurs Imo but
that dont seem to stop you. Take the high road and youll have a more peaceful journey along life highway.

and it is an abomination that you mock God, Religion and Martha Reeves, but continue .There will be a place for you............and you will experience no peace, this I know!

[Roberta75]

and it is an abomination that you mock God, Religion and Martha Reeves, but continue .There will be a place for you............and you will experience no peace, this I know!

I don't mock God or religion or miss Martha reeves. I take all 3 real serious and with love and respect. What you write on YouTube is the real abomination but keep it up and one of these days some nice homosexual gentleman will cut you like a bitch. Cowards And bully are only brave behind a computer screen. I have peace and contenttment that you will never know honey.

[Jimi LaLumia]

sleeping with Berry Gordy makes you an instant worldwide superstar!!..I'm sure that Barbara Randolph, Chris Clark and so many others will be glad to hear that!...LMFAO!!

[smark21]

Getting back to the discussion at the end of page 1, most tv performances of a musical group tend to favor the lead vocalist with the close ups while the other members are featured in group shots and maybe a close up or two, if there are enough cameras. This was not a phenomena limited to singling out Diana Ross. As this clip shows in which Jean Terrell gets the most close ups. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6ssN5gr1WI

[supremester]

Motown politics does not dictate public taste in pop music or 50 years later. Diana Ross left Motown 32 years ago but she still outshines them all - with Berry Gordy nowhere to be seen. CERTAINLY he gave her every effort to succeed, but similar efforts went into JMC, Gladys and Martha to a lesser degree. Any Motown scholar can look at popularity of product and do the math. I'll say it again: JMC had hit singles, nonstop touring and massive TV exposure and still couldn't make it. If you believe behind all of that Motown was trying to sabotage them or keep Ross ahead of them, I've got a bridge to sell you. I doubt VERY much he gave that a second thot - except maybe to keep both acts on their toes. We disagree, in a very positive manner.
LOL,For that matter,Gladys Knight and Thelma Houston could sing circles around Diana Ross too,no female singer at Motown outshine Diana Ross,was all politics,i'll say it again,Berry Gordy was not gonna let any female singer at Motown,outshine Diana,Yes it was all in Berry Gordy's hands.Stop,IN The Name Of Love lol

[supremester]

We agree again, Marv - you're right: Thelma and Gladys can sing circles around these fine talents as well!
Add Jean, Martha, Cal, Mary, Scherrie and Susaye to your list.........

[supremester]

This was Detroit 2 months ago. 3rd show in as many nights - she seemed a bit tired but only compared to the previous nights. The audience was digging her as you can see. The age breakdown was about 60% old [[like me front row center, seat 1 - there were mummies behind us, people in their 20's across and next to us on the left. Lots of peeps in their 30's & 40's. Mostly heterosexual - I asked every single one and demanded proof from those I suspected of being untruthful.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjEOv60qBhQ

[REDHOT]

No Roberta,i don't dislike Berry Gordy,Mr.Gordy is the MASTER,at bull shittin' the public,and we all fall for it,to me,Berry Gordy was the KING of the music world,back in the day,no matter what i say,it's the TRUTH,I went to New York to see his play,MOTOWN THE MUSICAL,and LOVED IT,You started it TheMotownManiac,i'm sure you wanted a reaction,and i fall for it,but again,i told the truth,Jimi Lalumia i know just because,someone can out sing you,means nothing,it's who behind you,and Berry Gordy made sure everyone at Motown,was behind Diana,there's nothing wrong with that,Diana was the one he wanted,Had he[[Berry Gordy)gave Gladys Thelma Martha or even Mary the push,things would have been different,again at Motown,it was all politics,let's keep it real,sleepin' with the boss,can help lol,thanks Skooldem for postin' Diana in detroit 2013,i enjoyed it,Please stay positive

[Roberta75]

No Roberta,i don't dislike Berry Gordy,Mr.Gordy is the MASTER,at bull shittin' the public,and we all fall for it,to me,Berry Gordy was the KING of the music world,back in the day,no matter what i say,it's the TRUTH,I went to New York to see his play,MOTOWN THE MUSICAL,and LOVED IT,You started it TheMotownManiac,i'm sure you wanted a reaction,and i fall for it,but again,i told the truth,Jimi Lalumia i know just because,someone can out sing you,means nothing,it's who behind you,and Berry Gordy made sure everyone at Motown,was behind Diana,there's nothing wrong with that,Diana was the one he wanted,Had he[[Berry Gordy)gave Gladys Thelma Martha or even Mary the push,things would have been different,again at Motown,it was all politics,let's keep it real,sleepin' with the boss,can help lol,thanks Skooldem for postin' Diana in detroit 2013,i enjoyed it,Please stay positive

You just seem a tad angry with Mr Gordy my darling and seem real upset about stuff that happened almost 50 years ago. Please Stay Positive.

Fondly.

Roberta

[REDHOT]

LOL Atcha Roberta,it's the truth,Angry?NEVER,almost everything anyone post here,is from back in the day,30 or 50years,what ever lol,it's all FUN to me,i don't know anyone here,Please stay positive

[jillfoster]

Can you grasp your comment is horse shit? Your implied marginalization of gay males is infuriating and enlightening. Lots of straight men found and still find The Supreme Supreme sexy. My guess is that Jill must have had an extraordinary amount of contact with the male heterosexual genitalia to be comfortable to make such a firm, albeit incorrect, statement. All three Supremes had their admirers to suggest otherwise is foolish. Additionally, to what end is this statement being discussed? Is there a qualification as to the sexual orientation of music fans? What about right or left handedness? Suppose it was said, "ONLY" blacks liked Mary? Think it O-O-ver. My guess at the straight/gay mix of the few men at the last Mary show I personally saw: 10/90 in favor of gays. I'd venture to say Mary has enjoyed more support from gay men than straight since she went solo/. I wasn't around at the time, anyone care to chime in? Does it matter??

I can say what I want about gay men, cause I AM ONE!

[Roberta75]

LOL Atcha Roberta,it's the truth,Angry?NEVER,almost everything anyone post here,is from back in the day,30 or 50years,what ever lol,it all FUN to me,Please stay positive

lol I will my dear Redhot. I will stay positive.

Yours, with every good wish.

Roberta

[jillfoster]

JMC had hit singles, nonstop touring and massive TV exposure and still couldn't make it. .

7 top 40 hits IS "making it" ask any struggling group out there if they would turn that down. I've always been of the opinion that Mary was spoiled by the sucess of her, Diana and Flo, and fell into that trap of feeling like she was a failure unless she kept "topping" herself. It's like Warner did with Madonna, telling her that her album "Erotica" was a failure after selling 2 1/2 million copies.

[rrussi]

I remember on the Merv Griffin appearance of Diana he announced it was unusual for her to be doing a show like this. They were trying to make her a superstar like Elvis, Barbra Streisand, etc. But I think after awhile, and a few records that didn't hit so well, they decided she needed to be seen more on TV.

[Jimi LaLumia]

ummm... just for the record, she IS a superstar like Elvis, Barbra Streisand, etc..

and she had more #1 pop charts hits than Streisand [[and that's just Ross solo, not counting The Supremes...lol..).. the solo Ross never did overkill TV appearances in the 70's, at any point..

[jobeterob]

How many #1 records in the name Supremes or Diana Ross and the Supremes had no Supremes on them?

How many #1 records in the name Supremes or Diana Ross and the Supremes had a Supreme or two on them but they were so blurred in with Andantes that you can't tell one from the other?

How many #1 records in the name Supremes or Diana Ross & the Supremes have the background so muted that it is irrelevant?

[Jimi LaLumia]

well, technically, until 1967, in her own words, Miss Ross herself was one of the three Supremes... right IS right, after all..

[milven]

well, technically, until 1967, in her own words, Miss Ross herself was one of the three Supremes... right IS right, after all..

If they changed the name of the group to Diana Ross and The Supremes, then wasn't Diana still a member of the group now called Diana Ross and the Supremes and still a Supreme till 1969?

For a brief moment in 1967, the name of the act was officially changed to "The Supremes with Diana Ross" before changing again to "Diana Ross & the Supremes" .

I did not like the name change. If there had to be a change in order to recognize Diana Ross, I think "THE SUPREMES featuring Diana Ross" would have been the better choice.

[floyjoy678]

How many #1 records in the name Supremes or Diana Ross and the Supremes had no Supremes on them?

How many #1 records in the name Supremes or Diana Ross and the Supremes had a Supreme or two on them but they were so blurred in with Andantes that you can't tell one from the other?

How many #1 records in the name Supremes or Diana Ross & the Supremes have the background so muted that it is irrelevant?

LOL you act as if Mary and Florence are only on a couple of the number ones and the rest are all the Andantes hahaha. The Andantes are only on 3 of the 12 and one of them is WITH Mary and Florence.

[jobeterob]

LOL you act as if Mary and Florence are only on a couple of the number ones and the rest are all the Andantes hahaha. The Andantes are only on 3 of the 12 and one of them is WITH Mary and Florence.

You Cant Hurry Love, Stop in the Name of Love [[single), Someday We'll Be Together, Love Child.

Where they didn't matter, can't be heard: My World Is Empty Without You

Where they mattered and are there: Nothing But Heartaches, You Keep Me Hangin On, Come See About Me, Back in My Arms Again

Where they are there but it could have been anyone: Reflections, Where Did Our Love Go, Baby Love, Love is Here and Now You're Gone, The Happening, Love is Like an Itching in my Heart, In and Out of Love

[Jimi LaLumia]

by later 67,many tv hosts and top 40 radio djs were announcing 'Diana Ross and HER Supremes', signifying that they were her backup singers ,happened frequently, a la Martha and HER Vandellas which I recall hearing frequently or Gladys Knight and HER Pips..

[marybrewster]

Sweet Jesus, what a pissing match this is.

Here, listen to the first 10 seconds of this.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6o4sXb6pOc

[milven]

Diana says, "By the way folks, we're the Supremes". So, as I said in the post above, Diana is a Supreme in the group Diana Ross and the Supremes. But I think the name is redundant. Kinda like saying " A Supreme and the other Supremes"

Never liked the new billing. THE SUPREMES featuring Diana Ross would have been better IMO

[jobeterob]

In retrospect, it might have been better for her to go in 1967; no name change; just leave after the most recent 4 #1 records.

But it doesn't matter anyway, it is all said and done as it happened.

[floyjoy678]

I wouldn't say the background vocals were not important on Where did Our Love go and Baby Love, I've heard several people over the years sing along to Mary and Florence's "Don't throw our love away". There was an MTV game show on years ago and I remember some metal head had to hum baby love and he hummed both the lead and the background parts. It's never been officially confirmed that Mary and Florence aren't on
"Stop In the name of love" it's just been said that the song was re-recorded WITH the Andantes, nowhere was it said "Without Mary and Florence" plus Louvaine said Florence is on the song with them. And Diana still considered herself a Supreme after 1967, if she didn't should would have said "By the way folks I'm Diana Ross and these are the Supremes". Even after she went solo she would always say "I was aSupreme!" and you could hear the pride in her voice when she said it too. Now who knows about "You Can't Hurry Love", that's another one that was never officially confirmed on who is singing it. All I know I'm glad they got rid of that break in the unedited version because all I hear is Mary singing higher than she should have been and ruins it.

[bradsupremes]

It's confirmed "You Can't Hurry Love" is Mary and Marlene Barrow.

[jobeterob]

The real issue for some is that Berry didn't let Mary sing at all and she only woke up to reality in 2000 and got that she had only gotten $100000 when the real Supremes ended in 1970 and that she, too, had to look after herself.

Diana got it 1982 when she walked for the $20 million. Mary got it in 2000 with RTL; it's just that the results weren't the same.

[jobeterob]

It's confirmed about Stop in the Name of Love too if you accept the words written in the booklet by the Universal guys.

But, hey, I know not everyone likes those apples.

I do agree, Floyjoy, the backgrounds to Where Did Our Love Go and Baby Love are integral parts of those songs. I'm not so sure that the particular voices matter much.

But what did matter is that there was a group called the Supremes, DR and the Supremes, or DR with the Supremes or whatever and they did make an impact as 3 strong young black women and they did open doors and affect many lives.