Why didn't Motown like Mary Wilson?

[Ollie9]

i think the old station wagon story isn't so much about 1 specific incident back in 1961 or whenever. it was about who you were "with." Mary even mentioned this. that Berry knew mary was also 100% tied to "The Supremes" whereas he was interested in those that were loyal to HIM. This story just might be to illustrate that broader point. Maybe there was more to this than we realize. not saying B and M didn't get along - i'm sure they had tons of fun times along the years. But B knew that M wasn't "totally loyal to him" and so he wasn't 100% interested in her

so it's probably less about the specifics of the station wagon and more about the broader relationship between the two

I respectfully disagree. Are we saying that as opposed to Mary, Diana, would blindly comply with anything and everything Gordy wanted to the detriment of her and the group. As a test of her loyalty, it’s one i seriously doubt.
I think it’s easy to cherry pick certain events and read into them what you would prefer to believe.
The bottom line with Motown and Mary’s relationship is that the company simply didn’t consider her voice as being commercial enough to invest in. Mr Gordy never being one to let his heart rule his head.

[BayouMotownMan]

[QUOTE=Ollie9;795719]I respectfully disagree. Are we saying that as opposed to Mary, Diana, would blindly comply with anything and everything Gordy wanted to the detriment of her and the group. As a test of her loyalty, it’s one i seriously doubt.

I have to respectfully disagree with this statement. I spoke to enough people at Motown, and Randy Taraborrelli wrote about this, that Diane Ross was a very ambitious young lady and nothing was sacred. If at any point in the early days that Gordy told her he wanted to make her a solo star and that she had to ditch the other two, not a doubt in my mind she'd have done it. Would Mary have done it? Maybe not, she has said however that had she been the boss's girl she might have done similar to Diana, though in a different fashion. Florence probably would not have done it.

Diana Ross has said when questioned about the inter-group turmoils that the biggest problem was that they were not relatives, "like the Jackson 5." And that was where her loyalties lied. She stuck by herself and her family first and foremost. Each lady had a different reason for being in The Supremes. Flo enjoyed singing and it was a hobby that became a job. She never, I don't think, expected the group to hit the massive success they achieved. Florence loved children and marriage and family would have suited her more than being a star. Mary, coming from a broken home, saw the Supremes as her adopted family. She has said that she thought she, Flo and Diane would always be together, which was unrealistic on her part. Diane Ross merely saw the Supremes as a stepping stone to something greater.

When the girls were still teenagers Diane Ross one day in the studio told Mary and Flo, "I'm gonna get him." Mary said they looked around thinking it was one of the other male singers. When they realized it was Gordy she was referring to, they laughed at her. He was old enough the be her father. But she wanted the fame and knew he was the one to get her there. She wasn't attracted to him so much physically as it was his power and creativity. It would be Arne Naess that became the big love of her life. It was he that got Ross to pull back from her obsession with stardom and career far more than the other men in her life. Though that only lasted a few years in the 1990s...long enough the derail Ross's recording career to a level she has never recovered from.

I think all of us work with a Diana Ross. Maybe it's a man, but there has always been someone at a company sucking up to the boss for special favors and perhaps sexual payoffs. I quickly add that you don't get to be where Cher, Streisand or Ross is by being nice. Diana Ross was the type of person where, as Mary said, if you were running a race with her and you tripped and fell, Diana would keep going and you had to get back up on your own the way she does. You either stand behind Diana Ross, maybe beside her, but never in front of her. If you were in her way you'd get mowed down. That's what makes a superstar.

[Ollie9]

[QUOTE=BayouMotownMan;795739]

I respectfully disagree. Are we saying that as opposed to Mary, Diana, would blindly comply with anything and everything Gordy wanted to the detriment of her and the group. As a test of her loyalty, it’s one i seriously doubt.

I have to respectfully disagree with this statement. I spoke to enough people at Motown, and Randy Taraborrelli wrote about this, that Diane Ross was a very ambitious young lady and nothing was sacred. If at any point in the early days that Gordy told her he wanted to make her a solo star and that she had to ditch the other two, not a doubt in my mind she'd have done it. Would Mary have done it? Maybe not, she has said however that had she been the boss's girl she might have done similar to Diana, though in a different fashion. Florence probably would not have done it.

Diana Ross has said when questioned about the inter-group turmoils that the biggest problem was that they were not relatives, "like the Jackson 5." And that was where her loyalties lied. She stuck by herself and her family first and foremost. Each lady had a different reason for being in The Supremes. Flo enjoyed singing and it was a hobby that became a job. She never, I don't think, expected the group to hit the massive success they achieved. Florence loved children and marriage and family would have suited her more than being a star. Mary, coming from a broken home, saw the Supremes as her adopted family. She has said that she thought she, Flo and Diane would always be together, which was unrealistic on her part. Diane Ross merely saw the Supremes as a stepping stone to something greater.

When the girls were still teenagers Diane Ross one day in the studio told Mary and Flo, "I'm gonna get him." Mary said they looked around thinking it was one of the other male singers. When they realized it was Gordy she was referring to, they laughed at her. He was old enough the be her father. But she wanted the fame and knew he was the one to get her there. She wasn't attracted to him so much physically as it was his power and creativity. It would be Arne Naess that became the big love of her life. It was he that got Ross to pull back from her obsession with stardom and career far more than the other men in her life. Though that only lasted a few years in the 1990s...long enough the derail Ross's recording career to a level she has never recovered from.

I think all of us work with a Diana Ross. Maybe it's a man, but there has always been someone at a company sucking up to the boss for special favors and perhaps sexual payoffs. I quickly add that you don't get to be where Cher, Streisand or Ross is by being nice. Diana Ross was the type of person where, as Mary said, if you were running a race with her and you tripped and fell, Diana would keep going and you had to get back up on your own the way she does. You either stand behind Diana Ross, maybe beside her, but never in front of her. If you were in her way you'd get mowed down. That's what makes a superstar.

I agree with many of your points that Diana had potential to be ruthless as regards her career advancement. That’s why i was making the point that her loyalty might waver if asked to do something she truly believed was detrimental to that cause.
I have personally met Barbra Streisand and spoken with many who have worked with her over the years. They agree in that she has always treated people with the utmost respect and is devoid of diva tantrums. The fact she has worked with the same personal assistant for over Forty five years speaks volumes. A stark contrast to Diana.

[sup_fan]

[QUOTE=Ollie9;795761]

I agree with many of your points that Diana had potential to be ruthless as regards her career advancement. That’s why i was making the point that her loyalty might waver if asked to do something she truly believed was detrimental to that cause.
I have personally met Barbra Streisand and spoken with many who have worked with her over the years. They agree in that she has always treated people with the utmost respect and is devoid of diva tantrums. The fact she has worked with the same personal assistant for over Forty five years speaks volumes. A stark contrast to Diana.

when you talk to many of the people that have worked WITH diana, she's not an out of control diva. she's very demanding but also gives much. like to gil and her other conductors, her band and orchestra, her choreographers and producers of her specials and stage acts, her movie directors and costars

the stories we've mostly heard about are from people that work FOR her. assistants and the like.

the issue seems to be Diana is a total perfectionist. she demands it of herself and those around her. if you're the band leader, are very good at your job [[which if you're been hired by DR you undoubtedly are) and put on a good show, odds are you won't have temper tantrums thrown at you. your job is quite specific and quite clearly defined

but with an assistant, that clarity and definition of job is not always the case and so it can get much more challenging. in Randy's last DR book, he shares a lot of more intimate stories of Diana and her staff. and yes, some are pretty wild and uncomfortable but they aren't written quite as jaded as the CHMR versions. he also highlights that Diana very much knows all about her close associates - their families, their situations, their lives. she isn't always just a wild out of control diva. there were stories shared where she was quite giving to them. and most of these stories [[good and bad) are from the 80s when things were quite different with her. she was attempting to raise her young teenage children, prove her independence in her career, etc.

[Ollie9]

[QUOTE=sup_fan;795763]

when you talk to many of the people that have worked WITH diana, she's not an out of control diva. she's very demanding but also gives much. like to gil and her other conductors, her band and orchestra, her choreographers and producers of her specials and stage acts, her movie directors and costars

the stories we've mostly heard about are from people that work FOR her. assistants and the like.

the issue seems to be Diana is a total perfectionist. she demands it of herself and those around her. if you're the band leader, are very good at your job [[which if you're been hired by DR you undoubtedly are) and put on a good show, odds are you won't have temper tantrums thrown at you. your job is quite specific and quite clearly defined

but with an assistant, that clarity and definition of job is not always the case and so it can get much more challenging. in Randy's last DR book, he shares a lot of more intimate stories of Diana and her staff. and yes, some are pretty wild and uncomfortable but they aren't written quite as jaded as the CHMR versions. he also highlights that Diana very much knows all about her close associates - their families, their situations, their lives. she isn't always just a wild out of control diva. there were stories shared where she was quite giving to them. and most of these stories [[good and bad) are from the 80s when things were quite different with her. she was attempting to raise her young teenage children, prove her independence in her career, etc.

So as long as you get on with the odd band conductor, it’s ok to treat your assistants like s—t by instructing them to avoid eye contact and writing a public letter to destroy their reputation and chances of future employment.
I was at Wembley Arena when’s she was screaming abuse at her band and kicking monitors off stage. Are you saying that’s understandable because that’s how singers raising a family and proving themselves act??.
Though not exclusive to Diana, that behaviour can never be justified by just wanting everything to be perfect. More the behaviour of spoilt, over indulged celebrity.

[sup_fan]

[QUOTE=Ollie9;795771]

So as long as you get on with the odd band conductor, it’s ok to treat your assistants like s—t by instructing them to avoid eye contact and writing a public letter to destroy their reputation and chances of future employment.
I was at Wembley Arena when’s she was screaming abuse at her band and kicking monitors off stage. Are you saying that’s understandable because that’s how singers raising a family and proving themselves act??.
Though not exclusive to Diana, that behaviour can never be justified by just wanting everything to be perfect. More the behaviour of spoilt, over indulged celebrity.

no i was point out the differences. her perfectionism was total - in all aspects of her life. the role of the conductor is much more clearly defined than that of assistant. if you F up as the conductor, you better believe Diana will scratch your eyes out. but the odds of that happening are more remote. you know pretty much exactly what you need to do and deliver. but as the assistant, you have to read her mind and predict her thoughts. it's impossible and therefore will be continually plagued by problems.

so many of the stories of the problems with her come from her staff and not the musicians or directors or conductors she works with. most of the later do state that she's a hard worker but rewards generously. and they also tended to bear less of her wrath

[Ollie9]

[QUOTE=sup_fan;796000]

no i was point out the differences. her perfectionism was total - in all aspects of her life. the role of the conductor is much more clearly defined than that of assistant. if you F up as the conductor, you better believe Diana will scratch your eyes out. but the odds of that happening are more remote. you know pretty much exactly what you need to do and deliver. but as the assistant, you have to read her mind and predict her thoughts. it's impossible and therefore will be continually plagued by problems.

so many of the stories of the problems with her come from her staff and not the musicians or directors or conductors she works with. most of the later do state that she's a hard worker but rewards generously. and they also tended to bear less of her wrath

I would say it’s a mixed bag, starting with the trouble she had getting along with other female performers while at Motown. Producer Gary Katz had said working with her was the low point of his career, while Anthony Perkins is quoted as saying she never let him forget it was her movie. There are of course others who have had no such problems.
I think the way she treated her employees was pretty abusive at times, and can’t just be dismissed as wanting everything perfect. She also managed to alienate most of the execs at RCA.
I would question the perfectionist tag, judging by the quality of the product she was turning out during the early 80’s, and lack of dedication to the task at hand as reported by Barry Gibb. Being demanding and/or a perfectionist being not one of the same.