Supremes Comment starts Facebook Firestorm!!

[Jimi LaLumia]

I placed this on Facebook yesterday and all hell broke loose!..lol..

""The Supremes were the Trojan horse that made black faces acceptable in white living rooms in the 60's. I know because I grew up in one of those racist households where black faces on the tv were not welcome. Until the numerous Ed Sullivan appearances and the non threatening image and style of the girls changed all that. The fact that Americas most successful group of the sixties was female and black was a bigger game changer than anything The Beatles ever did and was a major factor of the 'pop culture ' component of the civil rights movement."

[sansradio]

I placed this on Facebook yesterday and all hell broke loose!..lol..

""The Supremes were the Trojan horse that made black faces acceptable in white living rooms in the 60's. I know because I grew up in one of those racist households where black faces on the tv were not welcome. Until the numerous Ed Sullivan appearances and the non threatening image and style of the girls changed all that. The fact that Americas most successful group of the sixties was female and black was a bigger game changer than anything The Beatles ever did and was a major factor of the 'pop culture ' component of the civil rights movement."

Well, specifically what kind of pushback did you get? Sounds like a reasonable post to me.

[soulster]

Except for the part about The Beatles, Jimi is on the money! Both groups were equally instrumental in changing certain things in American culture.

[jobeterob]

Perhaps some rockers don't like the suggestion.

[Jimi LaLumia]

my follow up post said....."Supremes constantly are shuffled off as a girl group with a lot of hits usually by straight white male rock critics. Thank goodness no one pays attention to them anymore. And I do love The Beatles but I do not love the disparity."................which further fanned the flames

[soulster]

Perhaps some rockers don't like the suggestion.

I don't agree. The Beatles did nothing to help break down racial barriers. That wasn't what they were about. They broke down other barriers. They helped bridge the generation gap, and helped change the culture.

[soulster]

my follow up post said....."Supremes constantly are shuffled off as a girl group with a lot of hits usually by straight white male rock critics. Thank goodness no one pays attention to them anymore. And I do love The Beatles but I do not love the disparity."................which further fanned the flames

Aw c'mon! Critics like The Supremes too. But, they don't separate it from the rest of Motown. And, what the hell does being straight have to do with anything?

[Jimi LaLumia]

rock and pop critics in the 1960's [[I was around) especially were hateful to The Supremes, as 'white bread', 'sell outs', 'too show biz and they were made fun of, not saluted, in the musical "Hair' with the song' White Boys", where they were all squeezed into one ridiculous dress... not until Ross did "Lady Sings The Blues' did any of the girls get respect from Rolling Stone etc and I think the "Touch' album got a fair review.. but I lived through this as did many here.. I know what I saw, heard and read

[jobeterob]

The issue wasn't the Beatles; it was the supremes

White rock critics didn't like them or motown much

Ross Gaye Robinson wonder and the temptations kind of survived but outside of "us" on here, I'm not sure who in the public recognizes much else of it

[soulster]

The issue wasn't the Beatles; it was the supremes

White rock critics didn't like them or motown much

Ross Gaye Robinson wonder and the temptations kind of survived but outside of "us" on here, I'm not sure who in the public recognizes much else of it

This is true about neither Motown or The Beatles getting respect. It makes me wonder why you all always do this pissing contest when it comes to The Supremes.

That being said, there is one area that The Supremes, or most other 60s Motown group can't hold a candle to: almost none of them, save Marvin Gaye, Smokey Robinson, Jr. Walker, and Stevie Wonder, played any instruments, and rarely, if ever, wrote their songs. The Beatles were a huge influence in this respect. They inspired legions of youth to start playing and forming their own bands. This is a fact. It's not Motown groups' fault, though. It's just the way Motown ran things. The company did all the writing, playing, and engineering. All these kids did was sing.

The critics had more respect for the Stax people, and Atlantic artists because they wrote, some of them played, and the music was organic [[grittier). And, dammit! Sister Aretha did it all!

[marv2]

The issue wasn't the Beatles; it was the supremes

White rock critics didn't like them or motown much

Ross Gaye Robinson wonder and the temptations kind of survived but outside of "us" on here, I'm not sure who in the public recognizes much else of it

Strange! The Beatles loved Motown, they also loved the Supremes. The Supremes survive through Mary Wilson. They were just inducted, along with Smokey Robinson into the R&B Hall of Fame a little over a week ago. "White Rock critics" should stick to Rock if they cannot appreciate R&B and Hip Hop. I could careless about what they think or like. I like what I like and that is all that is important to me!

[captainjames]

I was there too and I remember the the things I heard which I will not repeat but I think the turnaround came with the "Love Chid" album and the "TCB" special.

rock and pop critics in the 1960's [[I was around) especially were hateful to The Supremes, as 'white bread', 'sell outs', 'too show biz and they were made fun of, not saluted, in the musical "Hair' with the song' White Boys", where they were all squeezed into one ridiculous dress... not until Ross did "Lady Sings The Blues' did any of the girls get respect from Rolling Stone etc and I think the "Touch' album got a fair review.. but I lived through this as did many here.. I know what I saw, heard and read

[midnightman]

That's odd people are saying rock critics hated Motown, rock MUSICIANS were the opposite, especially with the number of Marvin, Miracles, Tempts, MR&Vandellas, Marvelettes and Supremes covers.

If we're being technical, Marvin and the Miracles were probably the most influential Motown acts as far as rock musicians of that time period [['60s) were concerned.

[Jimi LaLumia]

i didn't say rock critics hated Motown, I said they hated The Supremes.. Stevie and Marvin started getting respect at the end of the 60's and the beginning of the 70's..their material changed..and besides, The Black Panthers had emerged... good!!!

[Jimi LaLumia]

The Beatles themselves were hard core Motown fans , they did Motown covers, and had tours with Mary Wells and then Brenda Holloway.. The Stones were crazy for Motown as well, Keith talks about it A LOT in his "My Life" auto bio.. it was the snooty nose in the air rock press that were dismissive over the acts they thought weren't 'black enough'.. a determination made by middle to upper class white boys safely in their college dorms...as if!..lol

[marv2]

The Beatles themselves were hard core Motown fans , they did Motown covers, and had tours with Mary Wells and then Brenda Holloway.. The Stones were crazy for Motown as well, Keith talks about it A LOT in his "My Life" auto bio.. it was the snooty nose in the air rock press that were dismissive over the acts they thought weren't 'black enough'.. a determination made by middle to upper class white boys safely in their college dorms...as if!..lol

I guarantee you it was mostly the American Rock critics/press that had the problem with the Supremes.

[midnightman]

i didn't say rock critics hated Motown, I said they hated The Supremes.. Stevie and Marvin started getting respect at the end of the 60's and the beginning of the 70's..their material changed..and besides, The Black Panthers had emerged... good!!!

Let's face it though, rock critics hated girl groups in general. Besides from probably the Shangri-Las and the Ronettes [[not sure about Martha and The Vandellas), but girl groups were never ever a favorite with those misogynists anyway.

[Jimi LaLumia]

but the massive success of The Supremes which none of the other girl [[or boy) groups came near, constantly challenging The Beatles at the top of he Hot 100 singles chart and at times the top of the Billboard Albums chart, probably drove their resentment into the overdrive that was evident at the time

[marv2]

but the massive success of the supremes which none of the other girl [[or boy) groups came near, constantly challenging the beatles at the top of he hot 100 singles chart and at times the top of the billboard albums chart, probably drove their resentment into the overdrive that was evident at the time

bingo!!!!!

[edafan]

but the massive success of The Supremes which none of the other girl [[or boy) groups came near, constantly challenging The Beatles at the top of he Hot 100 singles chart and at times the top of the Billboard Albums chart, probably drove their resentment into the overdrive that was evident at the time

There is something else people don't realize. I grew up in the fifties. In Boston, we had 1 radio station which played "black music" and it was hard to find. Also I used to go to a record store, and sit with piles of demos, and pick the ones I liked by ear, by groups such as the Ivories. I also picked by ear early records by Carole King. But Elvis, Beatles, Motown on Ed Sullivan is what propelled them into main stream America. Sometimes late night dj's would play the "Bad" records they couldn't play in the daytime like Love For Sale, Sixty Minute Man, etc
edafan

[midnightman]

but the massive success of The Supremes which none of the other girl [[or boy) groups came near, constantly challenging The Beatles at the top of he Hot 100 singles chart and at times the top of the Billboard Albums chart, probably drove their resentment into the overdrive that was evident at the time

No lies there. I think Whitney Houston got the same vitriol [[and Diana when she went solo) so good points! Remember, also, both the Supremes and Whitney Houston set records and yeah, I see what you mean... thanks for clarifying, I definitely see your full points now.

[jobeterob]

Beyoncé gets it now too.

[midnightman]

True. I forgot her.

[marv2]

So what you're saying is that Rock Critics do not like popular Black Female Artists? Did like Tina Turner? Was Tina considered more "Rock"? What about Brittany, Madonna and Lady Gaga?

[Jimi LaLumia]

the popular phrase was not black enough.. rock critics liked black performers who were black enough, i.e. stereotype grunting sweating sexually overcharged, which James Brown and Tina Turner of that era fit the mold of the 'white boy fantasy' of blackness..or, as Mary Wilson recently said, they 'knew their place'..black artists who were refined, elegant and worldly were a threat! harking back to the slave owners who killed slaves if they found out they could read or tried to become educated.. they wanted them to stay 'black enough'.. Berry Gordy had different ideasTHANK GOD!

[Jimi LaLumia]

now the comeback Tina Turner who i saw at the Ritz in the early 80's had enough of 'black enough' and returned as the elegant creature who conquered the 80's after signing with Capitol Records and owning the charts in a 60's Motown kind of way

[luke]

Some of the Rock critics begrudgingly came to praise Donna Summer eventually as she also wrote a lot of her stuff.

[soulster]

the popular phrase was not black enough.. rock critics liked black performers who were black enough, i.e. stereotype grunting sweating sexually overcharged, which James Brown and Tina Turner of that era fit the mold of the 'white boy fantasy' of blackness..or, as Mary Wilson recently said, they 'knew their place'..black artists who were refined, elegant and worldly were a threat! harking back to the slave owners who killed slaves if they found out they could read or tried to become educated.. they wanted them to stay 'black enough'.. Berry Gordy had different ideasTHANK GOD!

What about Black people who rejected "prim and proper" Black artists because they viewed them as "trying to be White"? But, what it does point to is that most music critics have historically been White, and most are from lily-white backgrounds, whose only exposure to Blacks seem to be from the records they listen to. Prominent rock critic Robert Christgau even admitted at some point that he wasn't even familiar with Black music in the 60s and 70s.

And, as I recall, the rock critics always liked Donna Summer.

[marv2]

What about Black people who rejected "prim and proper" Black artists because they viewed them as "trying to be White"? But, what it does point to is that most music critics have historically been White, and most are from lily-white backgrounds, whose only exposure to Blacks seem to be from the records they listen to. Prominent rock critic Robert Christgau even admitted at some point that he wasn't even familiar with Black music in the 60s and 70s.

And, as I recall, the rock critics always liked Donna Summer.

They didn't take Donna Summer seriously until she made "Hot Stuff" that featured a rock guitar.

[sansradio]

Some of the Rock critics begrudgingly came to praise Donna Summer eventually as she also wrote a lot of her stuff.

Donna, IIRC, was also the first African-American artist to be nominated for a rock Grammy [[for her track "Protection.") Ironic that Black artists are considered alien in an art form largely created by Black people. In the words of John Cougar, ain't that America?

[detmotownguy]

Hi Marv, how do you think they classified Donna Summers music? soul-pop-rock?
Thanks and hope all is well. Been crazy bill will catch up with you soon take care.

[marv2]

Hi Marv, how do you think they classified Donna Summers music? soul-pop-rock?
Thanks and hope all is well. Been crazy bill will catch up with you soon take care.

I'm fine and thanks. They classified her music as DISCO. She was given the title, the Queen of Disco!

[detmotownguy]

I saw Donna summer perform in the late 90s maybe around 2000 at Pine Knob. most everybody there came for her disco catalog but she was singing a lot of classical type stuff. The audience was getting very irritated but soon as she got into her hot stuff bad girls repertoire the audience was fairly reactive. so yeah I would agree with you that she was pretty much known for her disco hits. She sure had an incredible voice I can tell you that. I didn't realize how powerful her voice was.

[edafan]

Hi Marv, how do you think they classified Donna Summers music? soul-pop-rock?
Thanks and hope all is well. Been crazy bill will catch up with you soon take care.

I think I have trouble defining what is in each genre of music. For instance I've started collecting JAZZ now, because in younger years I didn't have the money to buy Jazz records. But in going to sites for the best of that genre, they include Louis Armstrong, Glenn Miller, and Benny Goodman in the list of 100 best Jazz songs.

I don't like to pigeon hole good music. I find even the supposed experts can't define these subsets of music correctly. I am a math teacher by profession.

In the forties and fifties they were called race music. I ran a big band from 1965 until 1979. We played stuff from the 30's to 1979, if it was good music. Just as a little joke, we had one guy who could not count in 5 fourths for Take Five. So we told him to fake it, and not blow into his sax.

edafan

[detmotownguy]

I think I understand what you're saying! a friend of mine owned a record store back in Detroit and he simply organize artist alphabetically by the last name. Good points!

[midnightman]

Tina Turner, as Jimi said, was "black enough" for white rock critics, hence why she didn't get much of a backlash as the Supremes, Dionne Warwick and others who crossed over got.

[midnightman]

What about Black people who rejected "prim and proper" Black artists because they viewed them as "trying to be White"? But, what it does point to is that most music critics have historically been White, and most are from lily-white backgrounds, whose only exposure to Blacks seem to be from the records they listen to. Prominent rock critic Robert Christgau even admitted at some point that he wasn't even familiar with Black music in the 60s and 70s.

And, as I recall, the rock critics always liked Donna Summer.

She was the queen of disco... rock critics hated disco. They didn't dig her until the release of the Bad Girls album.

[jobeterob]

Rolling Stone dismissed Motown pretty perfunctorily until 1970 and then they had a sea change of opinion led by Vince Aletti and Jon Landau.

[soulster]

She was the queen of disco... rock critics hated disco. They didn't dig her until the release of the Bad Girls album.

I don't remember this version of history.

[soulster]

Rolling Stone dismissed Motown pretty perfunctorily until 1970 and then they had a sea change of opinion led by Vince Aletti and Jon Landau.

Well, it was around that time when artists started breaking away from Motown's assembly plant-style of making records. I suggest that if some critics hated Motown in the 60s, it's because of their process of manufacturing music. Think about it: when Motown hit their stride in 1965, it was the exact same time the rock bands started to write and play, and even produce their own songs. The crooners/stylists became less dependant on Brill Building songwriters and label-assigned record producers. Later on in the 60s, Black artists started doing their own thing, and didn't want to be so controlled by the labels. In those respects, Motown was far behind the times. Even into the late 70s, Motown tried to maintain that old-style control over the artists and their recordings. One by one, artists either leveraged more control, or left the label for greener pastures. By the late 70s, even your beloved Diana Ross had enough of the parental control. One could argue that some of these artists failed in the long-term and returned to the label, but it was the 70s, and you have to allow people to grow and find their own way instead of being controlled. I think this is what the critics who were critical of Motown were trying to get it.

[marv2]

Rolling Stone dismissed Motown pretty perfunctorily until 1970 and then they had a sea change of opinion led by Vince Aletti and Jon Landau.

Which was rather stupid considering Motown was probably the most popular music of the 60s.

[marv2]

She was the queen of disco... rock critics hated disco. They didn't dig her until the release of the Bad Girls album.

Exactly. When "Hot Stuff" hit the airwaves in 1979, they started talking about Donna Summer as if she were a brand new artist.

[marv2]

I don't remember this version of history.

I remember. Everyone thought she was a novelty act, a one hit wonder when "Love to Love You Baby" came out near the end of 1975. She went on to have disco hit after hit. There was an underground movement building to destroy Disco with the "Disco Sucks" slogan. Not until the "Bad Girls" album and specifically the single "Hot Stuff" did Donna Summer get some play with certain segments of the market.....Rockers. Listen to "Hot Stuff". Notice the rock guitars and the way she is singing.

[marv2]

Well, it was around that time when artists started breaking away from Motown's assembly plant-style of making records. I suggest that if some critics hated Motown in the 60s, it's because of their process of manufacturing music. Think about it: when Motown hit their stride in 1965, it was the exact same time the rock bands started to write and play, and even produce their own songs. The crooners/stylists became less dependant on Brill Building songwriters and label-assigned record producers. Later on in the 60s, Black artists started doing their own thing, and didn't want to be so controlled by the labels. In those respects, Motown was far behind the times. Even into the late 70s, Motown tried to maintain that old-style control over the artists and their recordings. One by one, artists either leveraged more control, or left the label for greener pastures. By the late 70s, even your beloved Diana Ross had enough of the parental control. One could argue that some of these artists failed in the long-term and returned to the label, but it was the 70s, and you have to allow people to grow and find their own way instead of being controlled. I think this is what the critics who were critical of Motown were trying to get it.

Yet that assembly-line way of producing records Motown utilize, produced more hits that many of those rock bands combined! In fact, Motown's Funk Brothers played on more hit records than any other musicians in history! I think it was more about jealousy than anything else. Motown had top songwriters, musicians and singers/performers. Just because an artist did not do everything themselves before releasing a record does not mean much to me. How boring it was to watch many of those self important Rock Bands play vs the exciting stage shows Motown artists put on.

[StuBass1]

Some of this stuff appears quite foreign to me...Growing up in Detroit, my earliest memory of live entertainment was our parents taking us into a huge tent at the Michigan State Fair in the late 50's to see a group called the Royal Jokers...a forerunner to many of the local Detroit male R&B groups that came along later...I have no doubt that there were those, particularly in the South, that didn't accept blacks on television, and I recall discussions when shows like Nat King Cole's variety show or even when the Julia sitcom came along and the foreseen risks by television executives based on those shows being shown in certain parts of the country...Growing up in Detroit and having records in our house by Sammy Davis Jr, Little Richard, and other black and white artists, I recall us having a great deal of pride, particularly in Detroit whenever Motown artists appeared on shows like Ed Sullivan and others...I actually recall Sullivan referring to The Supremes as the "three negro girls from Detroit" in his introduction... As for the Beatles...neither the Beatles nor the Supremes had the cultural impact as Elvis, in that rock&roll was quite controversial at that time and even body movement and exposure in rock&roll performances became an issue by television executives when Elvis was first exposed to the public...The Beatles, like many other British Invasion bands to come along later...true, were big Motown followers of particularly of Four Tops and the Miracles and the Motown musicians and sound in particular, influenced and branded a new style of music, somewhat copied from US R&B, performed with British accents and throw in unique clothing and hairstyles, and a cultural phenomenon occurred...I think America was beginning to get a bit bored with mainstream R&R and The Beatles were able to take advantage of that void and create quite a stir...

[luke]

Yep that why I said Rock critics CAME to appreciate Donna EVENtUALLY . Sansradio's comment says it all!!

[marv2]

Some of this stuff appears quite foreign to me...Growing up in Detroit, my earliest memory of live entertainment was our parents taking us into a huge tent at the Michigan State Fair in the late 50's to see a group called the Royal Jokers...a forerunner to many of the local Detroit male R&B groups that came along later...I have no doubt that there were those, particularly in the South, that didn't accept blacks on television, and I recall discussions when shows like Nat King Cole's variety show or even when the Julia sitcom came along and the foreseen risks by television executives based on those shows being shown in certain parts of the country...Growing up in Detroit and having records in our house by Sammy Davis Jr, Little Richard, and other black and white artists, I recall us having a great deal of pride, particularly in Detroit whenever Motown artists appeared on shows like Ed Sullivan and others...I actually recall Sullivan referring to The Supremes as the "three negro girls from Detroit" in his introduction... As for the Beatles...neither the Beatles nor the Supremes had the cultural impact as Elvis, in that rock&roll was quite controversial at that time and even body movement and exposure in rock&roll performances became an issue by television executives when Elvis was first exposed to the public...The Beatles, like many other British Invasion bands to come along later...true, were big Motown followers of particularly of Four Tops and the Miracles and the Motown musicians and sound in particular, influenced and branded a new style of music, somewhat copied from US R&B, performed with British accents and throw in unique clothing and hairstyles, and a cultural phenomenon occurred...I think America was beginning to get a bit bored with mainstream R&R and The Beatles were able to take advantage of that void and create quite a stir...

Stu, I remember the pride we had whenever a Detroit/Motown act appeared on television. I was kid in those days and did not know that having black artists on TV would cause a problem in other parts of the country [[I learned about that later....). The Beatles were huge! I remember all the screaming during their first Ed Sullivan Show performance. My brother Robert and I would be in back seat of my Dad's car singing our heads off to "She Loves You" yeah, yeah, yeah and we were black! LOL! Back then everyone seem to love everything in terms of music. I loved the Four Seasons early 60s records as much as I loved Stevie Wonder back then.

I always have to give props to KEENER, CKLW, WOHO and other stations in our area [[Detroit,Windsor, Toledo...) for exposing us to ALL of the music in those days.

[StuBass1]

Donna, IIRC, was also the first African-American artist to be nominated for a rock Grammy [[for her track "Protection.") Ironic that Black artists are considered alien in an art form largely created by Black people. In the words of John Cougar, ain't that America?

Actually...this didn't sound quite right to me and upon further investigation I discovered that Donna Summer won the Grammy for Best Female Rock Vocal Performance [[Hot Stuff) the very FIRST year that Female ROCK Vocal Performance became a category beating out Cindy Bullens [[Survivor), Rickie Lee Jones [[The Last Chance Texaco), Bonnie Raitt [[You're Gonna Get Whats Coming),Carley Simon [[Vengence) and Tanya Tucker [[TNT) ...Prior to that, aside from niche categories like R&B, Country, Gospel, Jazz...overall vocalists, male and female fell into the best Pop [[or top 40 at one point), or just best vocalist [[male&female) categories...and winners long before Donna won the inaugural Female Rock Vocalist, winners included Dionne Warwick [[multiple times), The Fifth Dimension, Roberta Flack, Gladys Knight & The Pips, and very early [[in specific non genre classified) vocalist category included Ella Fitzgerald [[multiple) Nat King Cole [[Top 40), Ray Charles. Natalie Cole [[BEst New Artist)...and more...all before Donnna won her Best Rock Vocalist Grammy in around 1980...

[StuBass1]

Yep that why I said Rock critics CAME to appreciate Donna EVENtUALLY . Sansradio's comment says it all!!

As I pointed out...Donna won the very FIRST Female Rock Vocal Performance Grammy ever awarded in that category for Hot Stuff...Didn't take the critics too long...

[StuBass1]

Stu, I remember the pride we had whenever a Detroit/Motown act appeared on television. I was kid in those days and did not know that having black artists on TV would cause a problem in other parts of the country [[I learned about that later....). The Beatles were huge! I remember all the screaming during their first Ed Sullivan Show performance. My brother Robert and I would be in back seat of my Dad's car singing our heads off to "She Loves You" yeah, yeah, yeah and we were black! LOL! Back then everyone seem to love everything in terms of music. I loved the Four Seasons early 60s records as much as I loved Stevie Wonder back then.

I always have to give props to KEENER, CKLW, WOHO and other stations in our area [[Detroit,Windsor, Toledo...) for exposing us to ALL of the music in those days.

YEs Marv...well before the "re-segregation" of radio with niche stations...In our day...Top 40 radio played every contemporary ARTIST...black, white, r&B rock & roll, rockabilly, etc..We were all exposed to all contemporary music...I remember sleepovers at friends houses as a kid and falling asleep to a Four Seasons song, followed by a Little Anthony and The Imperials song, Followed by a Dionnne Warwick song, followed by a Petula Clark song...etc etc. etc...