The Supremes original plan...

[floyjoy678]

It's been said that the original plan for the Supremes [[just in case Cindy wasn't accepted as a Supreme) was to have "Reflections" be the last single and they would put out one more album and go on a final tour. Florence would be brought back for the final dates and then that would be the end of the Supremes and Diana would begin her solo career. This explains why it was said at first that Florence would be back in the group and she was taking a "break". Do you they should have stuck with this original plan? Considering the next two years the Supremes struggled just to get a couple of hits I would say yes. The fact that after Florence left most of the singles featured only Diana would also point to yes for me. I think she held on too long, she probably felt she owed it to Mary which makes sense because as soon as their friendship turned sour that's when she wanted out, but I think she should have left earlier than when she did. This is NOT a bashing thread, just opinions on if you think The Supremes and Motown made the right choice in keeping Diana in the group longer than originally planned.

[ejluther]

I also think it would have been a good plan - in fact, as you point out, this is essentially the plan they followed [[starting on Diana's solo career) even though Diana officially stayed in the group. What would have happened to Mary and Flo? Attempts at solo material? Or is there any chance Flo would have taken over for Diana as the lead singer of the group and they got another member? Oh, the things we'll never know...

[marybrewster]

I question whether it would have good plan; naturally there are way too many "what if's".

Would DRATS still have released "In and Out of Love" and "Forever Came Today" from the 'Reflections' LP?

Would H-D-H still have left Motown?

Would "Some Things You Never get Used To" been Diana's first single?

Would Berry have assembled "The Clan"?

Diana needed a HIT out of the gate; as it stands her "Supremes sound" didn't change until the mid-70's. Listen to all of her early singles: "Ain't No Mountain High Enough", "Remember Me", "Surrender", "Last Time I Saw Him"....ALL rely and are HEAVY on background vocals: Diana could have left the Supremes in 1967 or 1970, but she didn't truly go "solo" until much, much later.

[reese]

I question whether this was a plan at all, if for no other reason than Cindy Birdsong.

What would Cindy do if this plan had taken place? She made some moves that couldn't be taken back, ditching both her colleagues and friends in the Bluebelles without even a discussion. It is not like she could go back to them. What would Motown do with her? Would she be dropped into another Motown group? I doubt they would have been interested in her as a soloist.

[floyjoy678]

Actually the more I'm thinking about it, if I were Berry I would have put her out as a soloist after "Love Child" hit. Have "TCB" be her final project with the Supremes. Diana definitely was established enough as a single by 1969 in my opinion.

[BigAl]

Actually the more I'm thinking about it, if I were Berry I would have put her out as a soloist after "Love Child" hit. Have "TCB" be her final project with the Supremes. Diana definitely was established enough as a single by 1969 in my opinion.

I agree.

In 1967 Diane had not garnered enough name recognition outside of fan circles, so it was pretty imperative that she continue to be linked to The Supremes in order for the general public to make the connection, hence the change to DRATS. In addition, with HDH on mutiny and a seeming lack of top-notch material available, this would have been a bad time for her solo breakout. She could still trade on The Supremes' name, even with mediocre material, but probably would not have fared so well as a solo with the same fairly lackluster material. As far as Gordy was concerned, Mary and Florence, and later Cindy, would be dispensable once Diane's name became more widely recognized, but until then it was necessary to keep the act intact [[as it were), so they hired Cindy for the last leg of the run [[primarily for all the advance concert bookings I suppose) and for the next two and half years they largely limped along on the charts but still packed the houses which Diane as solo probably could not have done. Since it was determined that she should not go solo until the "group" had one more blockbuster hit, she just had to cool her heels. In my opinion, "Love Child" could probably have served that purpose quite well so I'm not sure why they didn't set the plan in motion then. Probably because of all the advance concert bookings as a group I suppose. Also, perhaps they just felt that they didn't have the right song at hand for her solo debut. Then when the group foundered on the charts after "Love Child," she just had to wait a little longer until they had yet one more major hit and eventually had to agree to use "Someday" for that purpose even though that was supposed to be her debut. In retrospect, I feel that letting "Love Child" be the group's swan song and "Someday" be Diane's first solo would have worked fine. "Reach Out and Touch," turned out to be something of a disappointment, especially while the "new" Supremes charted better at the same time with "Up The Ladder," and Diane had to wait until "Ain't No Mountain" hit big to have the big success which a solo career would require.

[ejluther]

PS: I only really like this plan if somehow we still get to keep all the great 70's Supremes material - I don't want a world where all those great songs just don't exist...

[luke]

Diana leaving had been considered as early as 1966. There was much concern how it would look if she left too soon[[group loyalty...) and whether she would make it or not. [[Remember they had to bribe people to go to her solo show initally). Gordy knew he could not abandon the other Supremes completely per a public relations disaster.

[Zantellor]

Diana Ross could have and should have put out some solo work while still with The supremes [[Mary and Flo) in 1967.Also Supremes' albums should have featured more leads by Mary and Flo in order to present them as lead singers, which they were.Another singer could have been gently eased in to replace Diana.There werea few women at Motown at the time who would have been excellent. Brenda Holloway, Saundra Edwards, Tammi Terrell all would have be great.

[BayouMotownMan]

Berry Gordy was/is an astute businessman and he surrounded himself with the same. Singling Ross out of the group was a delicate matter in the late 60s. The Supremes were heavily marketed as being close friends, even though we know now, they really weren't. Florence's dismissal kind of shattered that image a bit, HDH bolted and all of this brought negative attention to the group. Image was everything during this period, far different than what it is now. How would it look if Diana just ditched her singing partners. This had to be a gradual doing, first by changing the billing which actually didn't go over well with radio programmers or the public. Sales tanked. So Gordy had to rebuild the interest in Diana Ross and the Supremes. With all new writers and producers it was hit and miss.

The timing was good to pull Diana out at the beginning of a new decade, to get the public ready for the change. There was still money to be made off the name Supremes so Motown had no interest, yet, of ditching the name. After the new groupings became problematic and Diana made a firm comeback with LSTB, then Motown decided it was time to retire the Supremes.

Mary Wilson however had other plans....

[captainjames]

Diana was going to be a success in one year, five years or ten ~~~ She was going to be a star. If "Let's See If Diana Ross can make it on her own" would have flopped then Berry would have realized that he needed to add Diana Ross of The Supremes to the Billboard so people would know who she was !!!!

[mowsville]

so how well did it go over with radio programmers and the public when The Miracles became Smokey Robinson & The Miracles and Martha & The Vandellas became Martha Reeves & The Vandellas?...oh and didn't this all happen in 1967.

[BayouMotownMan]

Actually, and oddly, Motown started releasing Miracles albums as Smokey Robinson and... over a year before releasing the singles. As I recall the first Smokey Robinson and the Miracles single was The Love I Saw In You....

Martha Reeves has said that adding the Reeves to the billing wasn't any big deal as the public already knew her as Martha. She was singled out from the start. She also sensed that Gordy feared retaliation from her is he didn't single her out fully after putting Ross's full name in front of her group.

This decision had a greater impact on the Supremes as they were Motown's stellar group. Now the name was being compromised and technically, according to the billing, there were now just two Supremes and Diana was somehow above that. It was viewed as egotistical on her part. But it truly was not her decision

[Methuselah2]

Highlighting the lead singers in the groups' name changes may have been a company decision but considering The Four Tops never changed their name and also considering how Levi Stubbs felt about group cohesion and even how he turned down Gordy's wanting him for the role of 'Louis McKay' in LADY SINGS THE BLUES so as not to draw focus on himself and away from The Tops, it would seem, perhaps, that the groups still had final say-so about name changes. That The Four Tops remained simply The Four Tops has always been something that I felt was very indicative of who Levi was. The richness and beauty of his decision is as apparent as that of his voice has always been.

Seriously, have I erred in drawning such a conclusion?

[marv2]

It's been said that the original plan for the Supremes [[just in case Cindy wasn't accepted as a Supreme) was to have "Reflections" be the last single and they would put out one more album and go on a final tour. Florence would be brought back for the final dates and then that would be the end of the Supremes and Diana would begin her solo career. This explains why it was said at first that Florence would be back in the group and she was taking a "break". Do you they should have stuck with this original plan? Considering the next two years the Supremes struggled just to get a couple of hits I would say yes. The fact that after Florence left most of the singles featured only Diana would also point to yes for me. I think she held on too long, she probably felt she owed it to Mary which makes sense because as soon as their friendship turned sour that's when she wanted out, but I think she should have left earlier than when she did. This is NOT a bashing thread, just opinions on if you think The Supremes and Motown made the right choice in keeping Diana in the group longer than originally planned.

They had to keep Diane in the group whether she liked it or not. Mary says she never wanted Diane to leave to begin with. When it was inevitable, they accepted it, although they did not like it. Their personal friendship did not sour. Their professional situation made things difficult for all of them. Keeping Diane in the group until the end of 1969 was the right choice. Finding and installing Jean Terrell in the group was also the right choice.

[vgalindo]

Highlighting the lead singers in the groups' name changes may have been a company decision but considering The Four Tops never changed their name and also considering how Levi Stubbs felt about group cohesion and even how he turned down Gordy's wanting him for the role of 'Louis McKay' in LADY SINGS THE BLUES so as not to draw focus on himself and away from The Tops, it would seem, perhaps, that the groups still had final say-so about name changes. That The Four Tops remained simply The Four Tops has always been something that I felt was very indicative of who Levi was. The richness and beauty of his decision is as apparent as that of his voice has always been.

Seriously, have I erred in drawning such a conclusion?

I love the Four Tops but I don't really think a name change would have worked for them. They would have had to change thier whole name. Levi Stubbs and the Three Tops?

[vgalindo]

This had to be a gradual doing, first by changing the billing which actually didn't go over well with radio programmers or the public. Sales tanked. So Gordy had to rebuild the interest in Diana Ross and the Supremes. With all new writers and producers it was hit and miss.

I really don't see sales tanked. Most singers would die to have the sales success they had after the name change. They had a number one album and a number 2 album along with 5 other top forty albums, two number one singles with 4 other top ten singles, and another 5 top forty singles. This was all done within a two-year time frame. I know they didn't have the consecutive number 1s they previously had but seriously times were changing and HDH left. But you could hardly say sales tanked.

[smark21]

I think given Flo’s personal problems and her antagonistic relationship with Berry, as well as her problems learning routines while in the Supremes, she would not have been asked back into The Supremes if Diana had left in 1967/68. More likely the group would have disbanded, or the group would have been Mary, Cindy and some other singer on lead.

[reese]

Highlighting the lead singers in the groups' name changes may have been a company decision but considering The Four Tops never changed their name and also considering how Levi Stubbs felt about group cohesion and even how he turned down Gordy's wanting him for the role of 'Louis McKay' in LADY SINGS THE BLUES so as not to draw focus on himself and away from The Tops, it would seem, perhaps, that the groups still had final say-so about name changes. That The Four Tops remained simply The Four Tops has always been something that I felt was very indicative of who Levi was. The richness and beauty of his decision is as apparent as that of his voice has always been.

Seriously, have I erred in drawning such a conclusion?

The Four Tops were somewhat older and more experienced than the other groups at Motown. I suspect Berry respected them as mature men and performers and let them have more say so than some of the other groups.

[jobeterob]

I really don't see sales tanked. Most singers would die to have the sales success they had after the name change. They had a number one album and a number 2 album along with 5 other top forty albums, two number one singles with 4 other top ten singles, and another 5 top forty singles. This was all done within a two-year time frame. I know they didn't have the consecutive number 1s they previously had but seriously times were changing and HDH left. But you could hardly say sales tanked.

Vgalindo is right; that track record is much better than the 70's Supremes and I think someone was touting them as the top 70's female group..........and this record is much better.

It is just that in comparison to 10 number 1's, it wasn't as good.

We also always need to remember, Mary Wilson said if a Supremes record reached the Top 30, it sold millions. Now, while there may be some exaggeration there, Mary got paid accordingly, she was there, and while some songs didn't chart as high, some of those are the songs that sold. Remember TCB got the #1 spot and the higher chart numbers and Diana Ross & the Supremes Join the Temptations got the sales number. Missing You did not thrive on airplay, it charted from it's sales ~ by that time, Diana was not a radio staple. So, you never know!

[davidh]

the plan probably would have gone that way as Motown felt the Supremes would never recover after the loss of HDH and Ballard. it was decided to bring back Flo for a farewell tour and release the Greatest Hits with Reflections as the final single. there would not have been a Reflections lp nor probably In and Out Of love as a single?

[davidh]

in a sense Diana did go solo as In and Out Of love was the last single to feature the Supremes. all the other songs had the Andantees on backing vocals except Someday. so really Love Child is her first solo #1. In and Out Of Love has both Supremes and Andantees

[marv2]

in a sense Diana did go solo as In and Out Of love was the last single to feature the Supremes. all the other songs had the Andantees on backing vocals except Someday. so really Love Child is her first solo #1. In and Out Of Love has both Supremes and Andantees

It was not and stop stretching and distorting history

[skooldem1]

It is really not a stretch. Billboard revised their rules and stated that anytime your name is featured on a single release such as "featuring" or "and" like in the case of DIANA ROSS & The Supremes that counts as a hit for the featured artist as well. This is why artist like Mariah Carey and Rhianna have so many number one records. Diana Ross is credited with "Love Child" and "Someday We'll be Together as number one hits for both her and the Supremes. Diana Ross technically has 8 #1 records.

[milven]

in a sense Love Child is her first solo #1.

It was not and stop stretching and distorting history

Well, then perhaps it would be more accurate to say that Love Child was Diana's first number one record without any of the other Supremes

[marv2]

It is really not a stretch. Billboard revised their rules and stated that anytime your name is featured on a single release such as "featuring" or "and" like in the case of DIANA ROSS & The Supremes that counts as a hit for the featured artist as well. This is why artist like Mariah Carey and Rhianna have so many number one records. Diana Ross is credited with "Love Child" and "Someday We'll be Together as number one hits for both her and the Supremes. Diana Ross technically has 8 #1 records.

Ok that's cool. Then Florence Ballard had 10 number one records and Mary Wilson had 13!

[skooldem1]

They would only be credited with #1's under the name "Supremes". Their names were not featured as Mary Wilson and the Supremes, or Florence Ballard and the Supremes. In the case with the group post 1967 they were billed as Diana Ross AND the Supremes. Technically based on the new rules, Diana Ross gets separate credit as DIANA ROSS apart from the Supremes.

[Zantellor]

just a crazy thought ran through my mind tonight.What if Diana was replaced by lrts say Bettye Lavette,or Thelma Houston and TheSupremes really rook on a new direction.I'm surewould havenever allowed it,butdamn can u imagine what the musicwould have sounded like.

[jobeterob]

just a crazy thought ran through my mind tonight.What if Diana was replaced by lrts say Bettye Lavette,or Thelma Houston and TheSupremes really rook on a new direction.I'm surewould havenever allowed it,butdamn can u imagine what the musicwould have sounded like.

That is another of the 'what if's' but by 1972 the Supremes needed a completely innovative new style, new direction and it just didn't happen; they didn't let go of a style they had but they never came up with anything and ended up looking old; the membership changes, the management and internal problems that plagued girl groups and times when nothing happened at all hurt them. But the remake that didn't happen, in retrospect, would have been a good one.

[arrr&bee]

Did anyone mention that berry want[syreeta wright]to replace diana but mary didn't.

[marv2]

just a crazy thought ran through my mind tonight.What if Diana was replaced by lrts say Bettye Lavette,or Thelma Houston and TheSupremes really rook on a new direction.I'm surewould havenever allowed it,butdamn can u imagine what the musicwould have sounded like.

It would have been tremendous! An even more R&B sound.....sophisticated and complex.

[marv2]

Did anyone mention that berry want[syreeta wright]to replace diana but mary didn't.

That is true. He wanted Syreeta right away to replace Jean once it was discovered that Jean was not going to participate in any extra curricular activities.........hehehehehehehehehe........

[luke]

I always thought it was odd that he decided that night to try to fire Jean. Now THAT makes much more sense!!

[jobeterob]

I doubt that Syreeta would have been easier for either Berry or Mary to get along with in the end.

[stopinthenameoflove]

That is true. He wanted Syreeta right way to replace Jean once it was discovered that Jean was not going to participate in any extra curricular activities.........hehehehehehehehehe........

Has this been stated by anyone involved?

[marv2]

Has this been stated by anyone involved?

Yeah but not publicly. I probably shouldn't have mentioned it but Hell, it's been well over 40 years so who the freak cares?

[BayouMotownMan]

The main reason for Berry's re-thinking was that it became apparent that Jean was in no way like Diana and would speak up or shoot down his opinions. She was very liberated in that way.

[luke]

For Berry to try it the night jean was publicly introduced there has to be more to the story. He could have done it the day before their final show andrisked much less public embarrassment.

[skooldem1]

Although it appears that Diana went along with the plan, she was just as outspoken as others when it came to Berry- from what I've read in both her and his bios. It cracks me up how fans put out there what they think was the reality. No one here was in the inner circle of Diana, Berry, Jean or Mary.

[marv2]

For Berry to try it the night jean was publicly introduced there has to be more to the story. He could have done it the day before their final show andrisked much less public embarrassment.

Luke, I told you what's behind the story. Everything else you might read here about it is bullshit!

[marv2]

Although it appears that Diana went along with the plan, she was just as outspoken as others when it came to Berry- from what I've read in both her and his bios. It cracks me up how fans put out there what they think was the reality. No one here was in the inner circle of Diana, Berry, Jean or Mary.

I know what you mean. It is hilarious sometimes what some people post on here. I just say what I know! I only say about 30 % of what I know LOL!
I cannot get into all that stuff, but what I post........I know! These posts that talk about what Berry must have been thinking or what Florence was planning to do, Mary was thinking this, Diane was thinking that is all fantasy made up stuff! When you see a posting using phrases similar to these it is your big clue! I know enough to know when someone is making shit up or fantasizing........

[davidh]

distorting????????????? really. the only singles that feature Mary and Cindy are the two singles with the Temptations. the rest are just Diana! akthough they perfprmed with her in concert. its a fact.

[davidh]

as far as #1 for many artist. I have noticed that they now claim songs that go to #1 on any charts where as with Diana she [[or they} only count the songs that went to #1 on Billboard pop charts.
but if you count her songs that have gone to #1 on other charts , she would have about 15 or so....
Last Time I Saw Him #1 A/C
I'm Still Waiting #1 UK
Missing You #1 RB
The Boss #1 Dance
Im Coming Out #1 dance
Chain Reaction #1 UK
If We Hold On Together #1 Japan
etc
so why do the other artist count all those #1 on various charts but not Diana?

[supremester]

I think they did it perfectly. They got Diana's name out there - as it should have been as it was her voice, work ethic and talent that put the group over the top. 54 years after they arrived at Motown, she is still thrilling audiences and packing venues at top prices. Berry was not taking a chance - he knew what he had: a rare, superstar talent that could and would make history. That's not dissing the others who were also talented, but, Ross' kind of talent comes around very, very rarely. It was still a tough launch because her sound was still very similar and no one KNEW that many Supremes records weren't only The Supremes. Had the public been told that since 1963 Ross was the only constant voice on the releases, the transition would have been much easier. That way, Motown could have also disbanded The Suporemes at the same time with no trouble at all. Clearly, despite silly arguments to the contrary, that was not the case. My personal opinion is that Motown really felt that that the new Supremes would be a consistent money maker for years and no one would be worried about competition between the two acts. Hence the decision to add a super singer like Jean. I think it was a bad choice, but there's no doubting her talent. I think the Thelma Houston, Brenda, Tammi, syreeta ideas better. Harvey Fuqua told me that no way would tammi - even if healthy, join the Supremes. She had no interest in being in a group. I also do not believe that Berry dumped on Jean because she wouldn't put out. He saw her onstage with the others on their turf and realized that she was wrong - he was correct - an opinion that Mary Wilson now shares, btw. HDH wasn't a problem when the Flo issue began - I don't think that had anything to do with Supremes personnel choices. Diana had to gain the confidence and name recognition to work solo, the plan worked. Had Syreeta taken her place, me thinks the new Supremes would have lasted a lot longer and made a lot more money. Every group needs a star - JMC didn't have one.

[supremester]

David - it's not exactly a fact fact. Mary & Cindy are not, contrary to popular belief, on all Supremes/Temptations tracks. Personally, I don't care who is on them - I loved the songs and loved thinking it was The Supremes - now that I know differently, it means nothing at all to me!

distorting????????????? really. the only singles that feature Mary and Cindy are the two singles with the Temptations. the rest are just Diana! akthough they perfprmed with her in concert. its a fact.

[supremester]

Let Somebody Know was #1 in Curacao!

[thanxal]

Is there definitive proof [[session logs, session cards, etc) of who sang on what during the DRATS period? I know about Stop! and the controversy in the 50th Ann liner notes, but is there a scanned copy of some evidence of who sang what, where and when?

Note: I'm not accusing or maintaining that I know something someone else doesn't, I have just never seen any hard evidence. Its always been surmising and guessing and 2nd hand knowledge. And I'm not saying the evidence doesn't exist. I just haven't seen it.

[davidh]

u r correct, at this point , I don't care who sang on what. it's pointless

[thisoldheart]

I think they did it perfectly. They got Diana's name out there - as it should have been as it was her voice, work ethic and talent that put the group over the top. 54 years after they arrived at Motown, she is still thrilling audiences and packing venues at top prices. Berry was not taking a chance - he knew what he had: a rare, superstar talent that could and would make history. That's not dissing the others who were also talented, but, Ross' kind of talent comes around very, very rarely. It was still a tough launch because her sound was still very similar and no one KNEW that many Supremes records weren't only The Supremes. Had the public been told that since 1963 Ross was the only constant voice on the releases, the transition would have been much easier. That way, Motown could have also disbanded The Suporemes at the same time with no trouble at all. Clearly, despite silly arguments to the contrary, that was not the case. My personal opinion is that Motown really felt that that the new Supremes would be a consistent money maker for years and no one would be worried about competition between the two acts. Hence the decision to add a super singer like Jean. I think it was a bad choice, but there's no doubting her talent. I think the Thelma Houston, Brenda, Tammi, syreeta ideas better. Harvey Fuqua told me that no way would tammi - even if healthy, join the Supremes. She had no interest in being in a group. I also do not believe that Berry dumped on Jean because she wouldn't put out. He saw her onstage with the others on their turf and realized that she was wrong - he was correct - an opinion that Mary Wilson now shares, btw. HDH wasn't a problem when the Flo issue began - I don't think that had anything to do with Supremes personnel choices. Diana had to gain the confidence and name recognition to work solo, the plan worked. Had Syreeta taken her place, me thinks the new Supremes would have lasted a lot longer and made a lot more money. Every group needs a star - JMC didn't have one.

syreeta would have been an interesting choice. her hip black look and writing skill might have brought more interest to the group. with syreeta taking the lead the supremes could have been the anti-ross group. no evening gowns, no copa ... they could have gone total r/b and had the youth market and the music critics the way aretha did ... especially if stevie wonder produced them.

but, dang, we woulda never had all those great terrell songs. jean sure had a voice!

[144man]

u r correct, at this point , I don't care who sang on what. it's pointless

I'd like to know out of academic interest, but I don't have any emotional attachment towards the subject.