Mary Wells mistake

[tmd]

Your name is all over the book. I agree that she would have been a very wealthy legend had she stayed and would have gone down as one of Rocks top stars.

When you consider all the hits she had at the age of 21- that is very impressive. She did quite well in such a short time. Elton song "candle in the wind" could have been written for her.

[Jyqm]

Mary's decision has always seemed such a shame to me. I won't bother speculating how she might have fared on the charts if she'd stayed with Motown, but I agree that she likely would have continued working with Smokey and singing with Marvin. [[It'd be nice to have access to some of those alternate-universe recordings of the two of them singing all those Ashford-Simpson tunes together!)

I also can't help but see some karmic sting in the fact that Mary's first solo single in the wake of the success of "My Guy," scheduled but canceled after her defection, seems to find her asking the company: "What are you gonna do when I'm gone?" Answer: ask the formerly no-hit Supremes! Ouch...

[motony]

notice how Motown NEVER had another female solo star until a solid 6 years later, when Diana Ross went solo.Mary & Smokey would have continued their magic & Mary would have continued to have 2 sided hits no doubt she would have been THE biggest female star of the golden age of Rock & Soul.In 1964 Motown could not afford for her defection to be successful & yes, they had that power with the R & B radio djs & the distributors [[Barney Ales)....if she had been successful the others might have jumped ship, including writers & producers.

[kenneth]

I'm always skeptical when it comes to conspiracy theories explaining why Mary's records didn't get played post-Motown. I think the real reason is more basic. While I like much of her post-Motown material, really I think the main reason the singles didn't get played is that many of them just weren't that good compared to the Motown era singles. "Dear Lover" is a great tune, "Ain't it the Truth" is good, the Jubilee material is very interesting and definitely more creative, but hearing them now has got to be different than hearing them back then. I believe at the time the songs didn't seem to be that innovative and were likely viewed as largely derivative, but a weak imitation, of the Motown Sound where Mary thrived.

[motony]

I would say it made good business sense, not so much conspiracy. My radio friends in Orlando, Tampa, Jacksonville & Butterball in Miami showed me enuff proof why her 20th Century singles would only get so high on the charts & then disappear. I saw a summer of 1964 Motown promotion packet sent to all R & B radio, they didn't have to even include a pix of Mary but they did an 8X 10 with a big blue X across her face saying "no longer a Motown artist". Mr. Henry Wynn of Supersonic Attractions, one of the largest promoters of R & B shows in the South told me "she gonna find it hard to work...she left her bread & butter, Berry Gordy".As I loved Mary & she was not only my fave but a friend...it was my Dad who pointed out to me that it was a good business decision from Motowns view.Per Martha Reeves, Gladys Horton & Sylvester Potts all the acts were called in to sign new contracts with both Motown & International Talent Mgt.

[kenneth]

@motony,

Well, that's very interesting. I can understand then why you feel the way you do.

[motony]

ofcourse the fight & shoot out between Herman Griffin & Robert West was a bad mark against Mary & might have scared off some people from working with her.I don't think George Scheck as a manager did much for her but she liked him & Connie Francis' husband[[I can't think of his name) that worked with Scheck.

[motown_david]

Connie Francis' husband was Dick Kanellis, Tony. Well, he was her husband for about 5 months which was some kind of record for Miss Francis!! [[LOL)

[jobeterob]

Basically none of the conspiracy theories pan out and none have been proved ~ it's kind of like JFK's assassination. [[There MUST have been more to it).

But if Berry spent as much time keeping his thumb on Florence Ballard, Marv Johnson, Mary Wells, David Ruffin, Marvin Gaye and everyone else that left Motown ~ he would have about $3 instead of $300 million.

Basically, Motown did what all the other record companies did ~ when you stopped selling records, when your sound was old, when you couldn't get a hit anymore, when the infighting in the group was so intense the group didn't function, when there were alcohol and drug problems ~ the record company held on for a while, gave you another chance and then they "set you free.............".

[motony]

Motown did not set Mary free...big court fight from June -Oct. 1964. Motown could have released follow ups by her, without paying her any royalties, they owned the masters,,,why didn't they?Because Barney Ales knew that the quickest way to kill a Pop singers career is no new music.5 mos. without a new release is a LONG time in 1964 music business. Mary had NO alcohol or drug problems until the 80's .She was well liked by all those at Motown[[including all the Gordys).Thanks David, yes Dick Kanellis.

[dvus7]

I would say it made good business sense, not so much conspiracy. My radio friends in Orlando, Tampa, Jacksonville & Butterball in Miami showed me enuff proof why her 20th Century singles would only get so high on the charts & then disappear. I saw a summer of 1964 Motown promotion packet sent to all R & B radio, they didn't have to even include a pix of Mary but they did an 8X 10 with a big blue X across her face saying "no longer a Motown artist". Mr. Henry Wynn of Supersonic Attractions, one of the largest promoters of R & B shows in the South told me "she gonna find it hard to work...she left her bread & butter, Berry Gordy".As I loved Mary & she was not only my fave but a friend...it was my Dad who pointed out to me that it was a good business decision from Motowns view.Per Martha Reeves, Gladys Horton & Sylvester Potts all the acts were called in to sign new contracts with both Motown & International Talent Mgt.

II think the above statement says alot!!!!! If you listen to the Barney ales interviews....He says he told the radio stations not to play Ms. Wells records!!!!

[midnightman]

But was 20th Century Fox really a successful label? Did it really have promotional issues? I sometimes hate that Barney Ales helps to build up this myth that Motown was that powerful in 1964-1965 to tell record labels to not play a former artist's recordings. Obviously they did get released but who knows if 20th Century Fox, Jubilee and any other label Mary signed with had the promotional backing. When it comes to why Mary's career fell off, it's not as simple as "I told radio stations to not play Mary's work." Plus many of the post-Motown material WAS poorly produced. They didn't know what to do with her.

[thomas96]

Motown did not set Mary free...big court fight from June -Oct. 1964. Motown could have released follow ups by her, without paying her any royalties, they owned the masters,,,why didn't they?Because Barney Ales knew that the quickest way to kill a Pop singers career is no new music.5 mos. without a new release is a LONG time in 1964 music business. Mary had NO alcohol or drug problems until the 80's .She was well liked by all those at Motown[[including all the Gordys).Thanks David, yes Dick Kanellis.

That's very true. Motown contributed to her lack of success after Motown, and they did a pretty damn good job of keeping her irrelevant and sending a message to others at the company who felt they were in a 'bad situation' and wanted more. The trouble I have with a lot of this is that while I understand Motown was a business and the primary goal is to make money, they could've also done things morally 'right.'

[jobeterob]

You think a radio station that wanted listeners was going to play ANY cut off of the Florence Ballard album? The album was poor. No amount of promotion in the world would sell it. You think Red Hot was going to get radio play? It was poor too; it repeated Red Hot 79 times and little else. You can't make hits out of weak tunes.

[TheMotownManiac]

Thank you. Mary wells' was sub par for her previous songs and Flo's tracks were a joke. A very sad joke. The only track on it that had a chance, was "Like You Babe" and only a chance at that. I don't think, in '64, that Motown had the clout to stop Mary's airplay - even if they tried. ANY station is going to play ANY record that they think will excite listeners. No amount of payola would get a dog like Flo's first single on a playlist. However, Motown was big enough then maybe to quash Flo - but didn't need to. I don't think Red Hot is as bad as Flo's album - but it wasn't going to hit. Mary didn't have the voice for it. she did have the voice to sing People. Funny how all those books talk about Flo losing People at The Copa and never did it again, yet even Mary who sang on it for over a year must have forgotten to add it to her diary. After all, I can see how getting Diana's solo in People and finally being showcased alone would slip her mind......."Dear Diary, I'm dating a Top and a Tempt and met hunky Tom Jones........that;s all, Mary"

You think a radio station that wanted listeners was going to play ANY cut off of the Florence Ballard album? The album was poor. No amount of promotion in the world would sell it. You think Red Hot was going to get radio play? It was poor too; it repeated Red Hot 79 times and little else. You can't make hits out of weak tunes.

[roger]

Interesting to see how this seems to have morphed into a SUPREMES thread .....

Personally I like most of Mary's post-Motown work and think it could have [[and possibly should have) been bigger .. but then we are talking 1965/6/7 when Motown was at its height and competition for "Motownish" music was at its most intense. It seems to me that Mary changed from being a "big fish in a small pond" to a "small fish in a big pond" and got a bit lost in the shuffle.

I personally think that both of her two biggest hits on 20th Century .. "Use Your Head" and "Never, Never Leave Me" are both excellent records but I'm not sure that, as a label, 20th Century was the best company to promote them.

Atlantic/Atco was a much better bet for promotion IMHO and tunes such as "Dear Lover" [[plus its storming "B" side "Can't You See You're Gonna Lose Me"), and "You Keep Me In Suspense" are terrific, but then .. little fish .. big ponds .. and if a hundred great records come out in a week no more than 40 of them are ever going to become Top 40!!

I can't see that her Jubilee material in 1968/9 was ever going to take her back to the top of the "pop" listings, what with all those Womacks around it was far too "R&B", not that that prevents ME from liking it. Presumably by the time that Mary signed to Jubilee she had decided to give up aiming for the Pop/Soul market?

Roger

[smark21]

Really Mary Wells made two big mistakes. First was leaving Motown. Second was signing with 20^th Century Fox. They didn’t have many ideas for her. Her second album for them was an album of Beatles covers!

[motony]

In 1964 Motown had BIG CLOUT with R & B radio and BIG CLOUT with record distributors .Comparing Mary Wells to Florence Ballard or Mary Wilson is like comparing apples to oranges. Mary Wells was the biggest selling R & B female artist & one of the biggest selling femle Pop artists when she left Motown....Florence & Mary Wilson were not known commodities & Florence could not even bill herself as an ex-Supreme!

[stingbeelee]

I think that for part of this conversation we are talking about the years 1964 and onward. These are the years of the Civil Rights Act, March on Selma, Voting Rights protests, Lunch Counter sit-ins, Redlining; and I could go on and on. What some people are proposing here is that an African-American record company would have enough clout back in the mid sixties to tell radio stations what and what not to play.

[motony]

notice I said R & B radio...and Barney Ales had big clout with distributors. In 1964 [[and a few laters) a Black artists' record would have to be getting heavy R & B radio play before Pop radio would jump on it, no matter how big that Black artist was. The Temptations & Supremes had SEVERAL big hits BEFORE they got automatic POP airplay especially in the South.Persuasion in 1964 didn't take alot of money.R & B radio was SOLIDLY in Motowns corner.

[robb_k]

Motown DID have clout in 1964-69 [[when Mary still had her chance for bigger success. They DID have influence on DJs. Djs wanted to get the jump on other stations by getting new Motown gems FIRST. If they were told if they played Mary Wells' 20th Century records they wouldn't get Motown promos [[and would thus be "late" in breaking new possible Motown hits, DJs who made up their own playlist might well decide not to include Mary Wells' records. 20th Century Fox did NOT know how to market R&B/Soul music. So, THAT also contributed to Mary's downfall. But Atlantic/ATCO had lots of clout, and yet, her excellent quality releases didn't do nearly as well as they should have. I'm sure that pressure on DJs and distributors from Motown still had some effect during her time at ATCO, along with the larger overall competition. By the time she got to Jubilee, Motown didn't need to remind anyone not to play or push Mary's records. Her career was dropping on its own [[and she was little known to most new Pop fans).

[midnightman]

R&B radio did play her post-Motown hits though so I don't get that argument? I would've understood if none of her records charted but they did. Like I said I still wonder if 20th Century Fox [[and later Atco) knew what they were really doing with Mary. It's more than just "oh Motown was this big bad company that told R&B radio to not play no Mary tunes". Least Mary still had enough to maintain something of a career until after the '60s ended. Now with other artists who left Motown after her, that's a different story lol

[tmd]

Really happy to see all of the comments regarding Mary Wells, I would love to see some of the Motown alumni comments i.e. Ralph etc. I often wonder- was there any attempt to bring her back to Motown? There were many who left but a few who came back to record. Perhaps it was a pride thing on both ends.